Fair enough. I live in a small town where Encrust and Oppressive aren't used. Many players here are wasting burn spells, counter spells or removal like hero's downfall and utter end on my cheaper creatures saving my threats. I am glad someone agrees with master of feast because I feel like he is a wonderful card and a great card to buy us time.
Why? The deck is based Green anyways, at least my version is. To make this switch I would also be incorporating 1X Hornet Queen, 1x Nylea and 4x Mystics. Thoughtseize in the sideboard is fine anyways.
So at some point I swear I posted a long post in this very topic today about my Version of The siege Rhino midrange deck; but its more an aggro midrange deck ? Suffice to say I explained in detail every single one of my cards in the main 60; and now its gone.
Soldier of the Pantheon and blood soaked come down and provide instant pressure; Soldier is a great blocker who's only downside is that he cant be targeted by Abzan Charm.
Fleecemane Lion/Rakshasha Deathdealer - Both punch through Sylvan Carytid, and Deathdealer threatens the almighty Courser of Kruphix, Even if they DO block you just kill the courser and force removal on you; in my experience they wont block and its an early beater that can get exponentially bigger.
Anafenza - Legendary Creatures dont play nice together, and hard to cast; I only want 2 in any deck that I'm running just like you don't want 4 Brimaz; cause being stuck with one in your hand is horrible.
Siege Rhino - 6 Point life swing and a 4/5 Trampler that stops Reaper of the Wilds, swings through Courser of Kruphix, blocks Nissa Lands and tramples over any other things that get in the way.
High sentinels of Arashin - a card that in this deck is coming in as a 4/5 flyer on turn 4; if not bigger and will instantly draw out any removal spells cause in the air things dont get bigger than him; Plus if you untap late game he gives any of your creatures (including Soldier) a +1/+1 counter.
Abzan Falconer - Card is sick and no one is talking about it. You know who will have counters in my deck; most of my creatures; you know what's harder to stop than Fleecemane Lion, or Raksasha ? Them Flying. His own outlast does nothing, but if you need to sit back and outlast for a turn you can. In my experience your turn 3 or 4 is basically Abzan Charm/Ascendancy; into playing him on turn 4 and giving all the creatures you have on the field flying; Theres a potential chance of a blowout from killing him but you'll have to play around that.
Abzan Charm/Ascendancy - Exile big creatures, give your guys the counters they need to become even bigger; or draw 2 cards if you need more creatures; I don't see how this isn't a 4 of in any abzan Deck; The ascendancy protects you from removal plain and simple while also rewarding you with making your now underpowered guys on turn 4 and on into bigger threats.
Banishing Light - Sometimes It's not a creature you need to remove
Ajani Mentor of Heroes - You know whats awesome ? Counters and digging for more creatures. Ajani's cool.
For the record that is 25 creatures that the deck has; That's alot of removal they are going to have to come up with; and Bloodsoaked keep's coming back if they manage to kill him.
Cards I thought heavily about adding and still could
Hardened scales
Polukranos
Thoughtseize
Setessan Tactics
Ajani Steadfast
Sunblade Elf
Even with spot removal, I'm finding flyers to be fairly problematic. Arbor is an answer, although GGG is asking a bit, I think we can support it. I'm going to move my Duneblast singleton to the SB and have it for the mirror and put in the Colossus and see how it runs. I'll post any results I get out of it later.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
We may need to take a step back and rebuild this deck up with out weak it is to flyers, which is going to be a lot of the field. I can't dedicate 7 sideboard slots to dealing with stormbreath and sarkhan, haha.
Yes I'm definitely for the junk build no doubt. I will most certainly run more flying help. "Angry Flyers" is in the meta up here and I need to be able to withstand all the masters, heralds, and stormies. Not to mention all the new flying stuff that's coming out. I love arbor so he will be an auto include for my deck. I also want to try the heralds, maybe even masters.
After a bunch of testing against every flier heavy deck anyone I knew could come up with, I have come up with this list. Not changing the first post yet, but I want to get y'all's feedback. It's better in those matchups, but I feel that it probably sacrifices quality against... everything else.
Silence the Believers? It's been on my back burner for a while, as it deals with Stormbreath and Sarkhan. I haven't tested, but I would think a little flying help along with our Rhinos could make them raceable. UWR. Doesn't have accel.
Considering we have removal + disruptions, I just think its about knowing what to use the removal on, and what to rip from their hands. It will be easier to see how to deck fairs when we see an average meta to expect. I think this deck will be a lot better in a lot of matches post board. We have room for so much utility in the board I think that this deck has the potential to see Tier 1, no doubt.
I'm against rebuilding because the deck tests well against everything else. If uwr skies is a thing it just becomes our worst matchup. Every deck has a few of those.
Windstorm could be an option but I think silence the believers is a real option only because you're not limited to just flyers and later game can hit more than one creature. I'd forgotten about that one for some reason.
Along those lines though, is Silence the Believers really better than Utter End? Strive is the deal breaker obviously but Utter end has complete utility. I think we need to look at the game ending threats as the primary focus of the deck to address the issues of flyers.
I have Elspeth, Rhino, Sorin, Polukranos, Lion and Deathdealer.
I feel like Nissa is just not good in this list as all of my threats outclass 4/4's in combat (except of course, my Courser [pun intended] and Sorin/Elspeth) This is where the subtraction of the walkers and addition of Colossus comes in. Overall power level, no denial that Elspeth > Arbor C. I think we'll really have to see how the meta shapes out in order to make concrete assumptions on what the best setup is.
Stormbreath is definitely a pain. If you aren't running 4 downfalls, it's the reason you should be.
Sarkhan has seemed win more when I've encountered him...keep in mind they need blockers held back to keep him around more than a turn or two vs this deck.
My meta is filled with flyer decks, so that's why I like trying to start off with 2 Colossus mainboard. Not sure how the mana will work out, but this is my first rough draft. Don't gut me too much people lol
edited to add - the hydra makes me think about something that i'm sure a lot of you have already considered but it bears mentioning. against other midrange decks and against tempo decks, a Siege Rhino Midrange deck needs to play more controllish or more aggroish, depending on what they feel is best. just proceeding with business as usual may not pan out profitably. against a skies tempo deck, for instance, we probably have to play control. that's just the nature of a deck like this. we can't race them without a nutty t1 despise t2 caryatid t3 rhino t4 sorin. we need to play to our strengths, which are discard and removal. discard and removal can beat tempo.
unrelated - if anything gets axe'd from my main list at this point, it's going to be the singleton reaper.
Ya after looking at the list, Arbor Colossus is definitely not mainboard material, but I'm game for giving him 2 board slots along with 2 Silence the believers and or the new exile target permanent card as well
I feel it will hand the majority of the field. Here's some breakdown:
A lot of new enchantments have been released, and with the presence of Courser / Banishing light, I feel that Back to Nature and Reclamation Sage are great fits.
More hand disruption to combat midrange / Control.
Arbor Colossus to help with our inherent weakness against flyers.
Garruk is amazing against most midrange / control decks.
Last Breath is a great utility kill spell against all aggro decks.
Dark Betrayal goes without saying, it kills black stuff.
Glare of Heresey is really strong right now as white is everywhere in these wedges. Don't overlook this as it's usefull in multiple match ups from white weenie to midrange to control.
Hero's Downfall is another catch all removal for people playing Stormbreath, heavy planeswalker strategies or midrange in general.
Nyx-Fleece Ram is our all star against every aggro deck in the format.
Drown In Sorrow is our best board sweeper for multiple aggro decks.
I've tried out a number of decks in KTK like Mardu aggro, Jeskai control and Temur aggro/monsters but this is the one that I really like. It feels very well positioned for what is likely to come this upcoming standard format.
Notes
-I've gone with a B/G/w base which is why you don't see any Brimaz in the list. Trying to hit GG, WW and BB for Courser, Brimaz and Downfall is asking for too much. Splashing for white is the way to go imo unless you're version is predominantly white in which case you should splash either G or B.
-Indulgent Tormentor over Wingmate Roc. Roc just hasn't been cutting it for me. It's really only good if you're ahead. Tormentor demands an answer almost immediately and can also block/kill Stormbreath Dragon
-Siege Rhino is a beast
-Whip of Erebos is also very good. I want to bump it up to 2 but don't know what to cut.
If Jeskai Skies or any other flying dominated deck becomes a meta mainstay, I very well intend on keep a few slots in the sideboard open for Plummet. Does it's best doom blade impersonation and is a lot easier to cast than Arbor Colossus.
Otherwise, I love this deck's style and game plan.
Are you using Rakasha Deathdealer or Polukranos? Those are your 2 main factors in deciding wither or not to use Reaper. Think about the mana and CMC slots you have.
I tryed a version based on whip of Erebos. hes great with Rhino. Its doing very well agaisnt random dudes on mws. New on this forum, so sorry for any incovenience.
Commune with the gods can cearch both whip or banishing light, or a creature as well. Our tutor.
Whip is our mvp. Lifelin wons races against agressive decks. Return abilit give us Late game power.
Sometimes we won by the card advantage of whip, indulgent tormentor and soul of Innistrad. Sometimes we won ramping on huge undercosted treads, and sometimes we won draining life. This deck can win without Whip.
Preious verions splashed Blue for some Sultai cards. Sultai Ascendancy is great on atrition wars but sticking on 3 colors adds way more consistency.
Sorry for bad english.
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Why? The deck is based Green anyways, at least my version is. To make this switch I would also be incorporating 1X Hornet Queen, 1x Nylea and 4x Mystics. Thoughtseize in the sideboard is fine anyways.
Ill have to shorten it this time
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Siege Rhino
4 Abzan Falconer
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Fleecemane Lion
2 High Sentinels of Arashin
3 Bloodsoaked Champion
2 Soldier of the Pantheon
2 Banishing Light
4 Abzan Charm
3 Abzan Ascendancy
Planeswalker
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Lands
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Mana Confluence
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
4 Plains
4 Swamp
Soldier of the Pantheon and blood soaked come down and provide instant pressure; Soldier is a great blocker who's only downside is that he cant be targeted by Abzan Charm.
Fleecemane Lion/Rakshasha Deathdealer - Both punch through Sylvan Carytid, and Deathdealer threatens the almighty Courser of Kruphix, Even if they DO block you just kill the courser and force removal on you; in my experience they wont block and its an early beater that can get exponentially bigger.
Anafenza - Legendary Creatures dont play nice together, and hard to cast; I only want 2 in any deck that I'm running just like you don't want 4 Brimaz; cause being stuck with one in your hand is horrible.
Siege Rhino - 6 Point life swing and a 4/5 Trampler that stops Reaper of the Wilds, swings through Courser of Kruphix, blocks Nissa Lands and tramples over any other things that get in the way.
High sentinels of Arashin - a card that in this deck is coming in as a 4/5 flyer on turn 4; if not bigger and will instantly draw out any removal spells cause in the air things dont get bigger than him; Plus if you untap late game he gives any of your creatures (including Soldier) a +1/+1 counter.
Abzan Falconer - Card is sick and no one is talking about it. You know who will have counters in my deck; most of my creatures; you know what's harder to stop than Fleecemane Lion, or Raksasha ? Them Flying. His own outlast does nothing, but if you need to sit back and outlast for a turn you can. In my experience your turn 3 or 4 is basically Abzan Charm/Ascendancy; into playing him on turn 4 and giving all the creatures you have on the field flying; Theres a potential chance of a blowout from killing him but you'll have to play around that.
Abzan Charm/Ascendancy - Exile big creatures, give your guys the counters they need to become even bigger; or draw 2 cards if you need more creatures; I don't see how this isn't a 4 of in any abzan Deck; The ascendancy protects you from removal plain and simple while also rewarding you with making your now underpowered guys on turn 4 and on into bigger threats.
Banishing Light - Sometimes It's not a creature you need to remove
Ajani Mentor of Heroes - You know whats awesome ? Counters and digging for more creatures. Ajani's cool.
For the record that is 25 creatures that the deck has; That's alot of removal they are going to have to come up with; and Bloodsoaked keep's coming back if they manage to kill him.
Cards I thought heavily about adding and still could
Hardened scales
Polukranos
Thoughtseize
Setessan Tactics
Ajani Steadfast
Sunblade Elf
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 windswept heath
3 temple of malady
2 temple of silence
2 temple of plenty
2 caves of koilos
2 llanowar wastes
1 sandsteppe citadel
1 mana confluence
2 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
4 fleecemane lion
2 Wingmate Roc
instants 9
3 abzan charm
3 hero's downfall
3 bile blight
planeswalkers 2
2 elspeth, sun's champion
sorceries 7
3 thoughtseize
4 despise
4 drown in sorrow
4 nyx-fleece ram
2 utter end
1 silence the believers
1 bile blight
1 thoughtseize
1 hero's downfall
1 sorin, solemn visitor
my other idea (yet untested) involves a lot of end hostilities action. will do some work on that after i leave the office today.
is jeskai skies going to be a thing, anyhow?
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Peak rating 1832
Brain Freeze is the coolest card ever printed.
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Along those lines though, is Silence the Believers really better than Utter End? Strive is the deal breaker obviously but Utter end has complete utility. I think we need to look at the game ending threats as the primary focus of the deck to address the issues of flyers.
I have Elspeth, Rhino, Sorin, Polukranos, Lion and Deathdealer.
I feel like Nissa is just not good in this list as all of my threats outclass 4/4's in combat (except of course, my Courser [pun intended] and Sorin/Elspeth) This is where the subtraction of the walkers and addition of Colossus comes in. Overall power level, no denial that Elspeth > Arbor C. I think we'll really have to see how the meta shapes out in order to make concrete assumptions on what the best setup is.
Sarkhan has seemed win more when I've encountered him...keep in mind they need blockers held back to keep him around more than a turn or two vs this deck.
3 Fleecemane Lion
4 Sylvan Caratid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Herald of Torment
4 Siege Rhino
2 Arbor Colossus
Sorceries 3
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Abzan Charm
2 Bile Blight
Planeswalkers 2
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Enchantments 3
2 Banishing Light
1 Whip of Erebos
Lands 24
3 Windswept Heath
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Plenty
4 Forests
2 Plains
1 Swamp
My meta is filled with flyer decks, so that's why I like trying to start off with 2 Colossus mainboard. Not sure how the mana will work out, but this is my first rough draft. Don't gut me too much people lol
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
edited to add - the hydra makes me think about something that i'm sure a lot of you have already considered but it bears mentioning. against other midrange decks and against tempo decks, a Siege Rhino Midrange deck needs to play more controllish or more aggroish, depending on what they feel is best. just proceeding with business as usual may not pan out profitably. against a skies tempo deck, for instance, we probably have to play control. that's just the nature of a deck like this. we can't race them without a nutty t1 despise t2 caryatid t3 rhino t4 sorin. we need to play to our strengths, which are discard and removal. discard and removal can beat tempo.
unrelated - if anything gets axe'd from my main list at this point, it's going to be the singleton reaper.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
An enigma as vexing as life itself.
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
I feel it will hand the majority of the field. Here's some breakdown:
A lot of new enchantments have been released, and with the presence of Courser / Banishing light, I feel that Back to Nature and Reclamation Sage are great fits.
More hand disruption to combat midrange / Control.
Arbor Colossus to help with our inherent weakness against flyers.
Garruk is amazing against most midrange / control decks.
Last Breath is a great utility kill spell against all aggro decks.
Dark Betrayal goes without saying, it kills black stuff.
Glare of Heresey is really strong right now as white is everywhere in these wedges. Don't overlook this as it's usefull in multiple match ups from white weenie to midrange to control.
Hero's Downfall is another catch all removal for people playing Stormbreath, heavy planeswalker strategies or midrange in general.
Nyx-Fleece Ram is our all star against every aggro deck in the format.
Drown In Sorrow is our best board sweeper for multiple aggro decks.
3x Forest
3x Swamp
1x Plains
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Windswept Heath
4x Sandsteppe Citadel
2x Temple of Malady
1x Temple of Plenty
1x Temple of Silence
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures 18
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Fleecemane Lion
4x Courser of Kruphix
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
4x Siege Rhino
3x Indulgent Tormentor
4x Thoughtseize
3x Abzan Charm
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Bile Blight
Enchantments 2
2x Banishing Light
Artifact
1x Whip of Erebos
Planeswalkers 3
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4x Nyx-Fleece Ram
2x Banishing Light
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
2x Lilana Vess
2x Despise
3x Drown in Sorrow
I've tried out a number of decks in KTK like Mardu aggro, Jeskai control and Temur aggro/monsters but this is the one that I really like. It feels very well positioned for what is likely to come this upcoming standard format.
Notes
-I've gone with a B/G/w base which is why you don't see any Brimaz in the list. Trying to hit GG, WW and BB for Courser, Brimaz and Downfall is asking for too much. Splashing for white is the way to go imo unless you're version is predominantly white in which case you should splash either G or B.
-Indulgent Tormentor over Wingmate Roc. Roc just hasn't been cutting it for me. It's really only good if you're ahead. Tormentor demands an answer almost immediately and can also block/kill Stormbreath Dragon
-Siege Rhino is a beast
-Whip of Erebos is also very good. I want to bump it up to 2 but don't know what to cut.
I'm a fan of tormentor as well and will be trying him out.
I feel that you list is to light on threats though, I count 13 total in the deck.
Otherwise, I love this deck's style and game plan.
An enigma as vexing as life itself.
2 Swamp
2 Forest 4 Banishing Light
4 Sandstepp cidadel 4 Whip of Erebos
1 Temple of plenty
4 Llanowar wastes
4 Windshepth heath Sorceries
1 Plain
1 Mana confluence 4 Thoughtseise
1 Caves of koilos 4 Commune with the gods
1 Ashen Rider
4 Sylvan Caryatd
4 Siege Rhino
4 Elvish Mytic
1 Anafenza, The Foremost
1 Soul of Innistrad
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Indulgent Tormentor
2 Fleecemane Lion
Commune with the gods can cearch both whip or banishing light, or a creature as well. Our tutor.
Whip is our mvp. Lifelin wons races against agressive decks. Return abilit give us Late game power.
Sometimes we won by the card advantage of whip, indulgent tormentor and soul of Innistrad. Sometimes we won ramping on huge undercosted treads, and sometimes we won draining life. This deck can win without Whip.
Preious verions splashed Blue for some Sultai cards. Sultai Ascendancy is great on atrition wars but sticking on 3 colors adds way more consistency.
Sorry for bad english.