I have to admit that before KTK came out, I was pretty sure Soldier of the Pantheon would be a seeing a lot of use, considering the number of creatures that can't block it and can't damage it. I suppose it's because of the amount of mono-colored removal we have right now that it doesn't see play, but I still wonder if that's a good reason not to play it, as it takes those removal spells away from other targets. And with Caryatid out of favor in the abzan builds right now, it might be better. That's probably why this guy elected to play it.
While a top 8 finish can't be ignored.. blind luck can't be ignored either. It's the reason your [general] deck can go 4-0 one week and then 0-4 the next. It just happens.
That said.. I don't think Soldier of the Pantheon is good enough to be a 4 of in aggro (let alone midrange). There's very little it actually stops, unless you're looking to shore up your game against multi-color randomness. I think there's better alternatives.
..but again.. a top 8 finish can't be ignored.
Also, regarding Silumgar...
Droptimal's list reminded me about: Merciless Executioner. I think he should be put at the top spot of ways to answer Silumgar/Sphinx.
..and Droptimal..
My quick and dirty suggestion would be to drop a Valorous Stance and add 3 Thoughtseize. Even better if you could get Thoughtseize to 4.
So for all of you looking for feedback, I'd suggest you keep 3-4 Hero's Downfall in your main, and give Thoughtseize another look considering the new meta.
And my question to all of you is, what are your thoughts on facing Ugin and Silumgar? Garruk seems like a great answer to Ugin ; or do we just try to outrace the opponent, kill their mana dorks, and/or Thoughtseize before they get to 8?
Regarding Silumgar - and he's a BOMB for control builds - Reaper of the Wilds actually seems like a great answer, epecially if we just try to outrace them. The other options I see are Thoughtseize and Crux of Fate (which they will use against us). Thoughts?
How about the idea of playing Crux of Fate instead of End Hostilities? I like the idea of reducing the number of WW cards, and aside from the occasional R/G/x Monsters build, I can't think of a situation where Crux would be an inconvenience.
I think Thoughtseize and Garruk are a reasonable gameplan against Ugin and that's what I'm planning on, aside from just playing around it when I deploy my threats and removal. I'm not as worried about Ugin. I can see where Silumgar would be extremely difficult to deal with. If it sees much play, I guess I'd consider Dead Drop as an answer since we can probably fill our graveyard with Heaths and Thoughseize pretty easily. Hornet tokens die to Silumgar, but the queen herself would be an adequate blocker or attacker. Also, one Anafenza counter can make a Wingmate Roc (or bird token) capable of blocking Silumgar. Still, those 2 cards in particular do force Abzan midrange to contort a bit.
Took a hard look at my deck and ripped out the Abzan Ascendancy and a few other cards. I'm having some arguments with other players over some of my choices in this build, namely over how good Warden is and 4 brutal hordechiefs over Wingmate Rock. The deck also avoids tap lands beyond the tri's to ensure consistent drops on turn, but I'm questioning if it may be wise to put a few scry lands in too at the risk of losing tempo. 2 Slots in SB as well need to be filled, so any comments on matchups I may need to prepare for to fill that slot.
I like your ideas for the most part. As AsrialX pointed out, an aggressive deck like this is where Thoughtseize really shines. I'd try it in the main deck.
My main concern for your deck is the mana base, specifically black sources. Bile Blight, Downfall, and Deathdealer all demand multiple black sources. To support that, you should have AT LEAST 16 black-producing lands, and the math actually says 18. Yes, your multiple copies of Urborg will help . . . if you draw them. I'd highly recommend adding two more black sources, probably by turning one fetch, one forest, one plains, and perhaps even both swamps (because Deathdealers want GG too!), and adding an equal number of Scry lands. You run a low enough curve that one, possibly two, tapped lands won't be a problem.
I think Thoughtseize and Garruk are a reasonable gameplan against Ugin and that's what I'm planning on, aside from just playing around it when I deploy my threats and removal. I'm not as worried about Ugin. I can see where Silumgar would be extremely difficult to deal with. If it sees much play, I guess I'd consider Dead Drop as an answer since we can probably fill our graveyard with Heaths and Thoughseize pretty easily. Hornet tokens die to Silumgar, but the queen herself would be an adequate blocker or attacker. Also, one Anafenza counter can make a Wingmate Roc (or bird token) capable of blocking Silumgar. Still, those 2 cards in particular do force Abzan midrange to contort a bit.
I like the outside-the-box thinking that got us to Merciless Executioner and Dead Drop. They may prove to be very effective going forward.
For now, I'm going to bring Thoughtseize back to my 75. It's just a more-universal answer, and a card we can play any time. My main concern about facing control is that they can present such a variety of extremely problematic cards, most of which require unique answers. What happens if we bring in Dead Drop, and the opponent never draws the singleton Silumgar, or worse, Elspeth made some tokens first? Thoughtseize is pre-emptive, and might let us keep our threats on the table instead of worrying about the opponent's. When played effectively, it lets us keep the initiative. I hope.
Good brainstorming though. Let's keep the ideas and feedback rolling.
Overall, I was happy with how the deck transitioned from Khans to Fate Reforged. Ugin performed reasonably well, and resolving him usually resulted in a win, except against the deck I drew against (Jeskai Control). I would like to work in the full set of Read the Bones, but I'm unsure of what to remove. Suggestions?
If you're looking to run 4 Charms and 4 Read the Bones, that seems like a ton of time, mana, and cards spent digging. At that point, are you better running Liliana Vess maindeck since she's versatile and you'll likely be casting some of those card draw spells later anyway? Are 2 semi-random cards better than just cutting to the chase and grabbing Duneblast or Ugin or Nissa you want? Just a thought.
I think it's a good thought and I probably will test Liliana in the main tomorrow to get specific cards, but I think the charms/reads on turn 6 are good because I can draw and have removal up for the same turn.
I need to test the thoughtsiezes. It's a lot of money wasted if I don't need them. Think I might do the scry's though. What would I drop for 3-4 thougtseizes in MB?
I need to test the thoughtsiezes. It's a lot of money wasted if I don't need them. Think I might do the scry's though. What would I drop for 3-4 thougtseizes in MB?
Not money wasted. They will pretty much always see play in Modern and even in Legacy. Thoughtseize is probably a decent investment, as long as it doesn't get reprinted again.
I need to test the thoughtsiezes. It's a lot of money wasted if I don't need them. Think I might do the scry's though. What would I drop for 3-4 thougtseizes in MB?
Not money wasted. They will pretty much always see play in Modern and even in Legacy. Thoughtseize is probably a decent investment, as long as it doesn't get reprinted again.
Agreed: Thoughtseize is definitely a good investment.
What to cut? Well, for an aggro deck, you have an awful lot going on at 4 mana. Yes, they're all good, but what's best? They all do kind of the same job. I'd cut 2 Brutal Hordechief. For a third slot, you might actually drop a Hero's Downfall. You have other creature removal, and Thoughtseize and/or your creatures can handle opposing Planeswalkers.
Remember, timing is key to an effective Thoutseize. Identify which of the opponent's cards give you the most trouble, and Thoghtseize a turn before they could play that card. Or play it immediately before a key card, to draw out a counterspell or removal.
I need to test the thoughtsiezes. It's a lot of money wasted if I don't need them. Think I might do the scry's though. What would I drop for 3-4 thougtseizes in MB?
Not money wasted. They will pretty much always see play in Modern and even in Legacy. Thoughtseize is probably a decent investment, as long as it doesn't get reprinted again.
Agreed: Thoughtseize is definitely a good investment.
What to cut? Well, for an aggro deck, you have an awful lot going on at 4 mana. Yes, they're all good, but what's best? They all do kind of the same job. I'd cut 2 Brutal Hordechief. For a third slot, you might actually drop a Hero's Downfall. You have other creature removal, and Thoughtseize and/or your creatures can handle opposing Planeswalkers.
Remember, timing is key to an effective Thoutseize. Identify which of the opponent's cards give you the most trouble, and Thoghtseize a turn before they could play that card. Or play it immediately before a key card, to draw out a counterspell or removal.
I think there's an exception for game 1, though... If you don't know what deck your opponent is playing, it can be dangerous to try and wait it out to figure out the deck before getting rid of a key card from their hand. The difference between Jeskai Tempo and Jeskai Tokens may not be obvious until the Ascendancy lands on the board. I'd rather play it T1 so I have a pretty good idea what deck they are playing. On G2 and G3 I agree with this strategy, though.
So, I'm new to Abzan, coming from Mardu and Jeskai.. Been playing this list for a few days and love it. I'm finally drinking the Siege Rhino kool-aid and it's a lot of fun. I haven't tackled changes with the new cards yet but could be open to some suggestions. I've been playing the Aggro lists, which suits more my playstyle.
Valorous Stance is fantastic. I personally like Wingmate Roc more than Dromoka, but I've honestly only played a few dozen matches testing Dromoka so I could be wrong on that front. I don't like playing more than 2 Wardens personally, but if 3 is working for you, I'd stick to that. I'd be a little worried about playing Banishing Light in the land of Ugin decks. Maybe swap out the Banishing Lights for 2 Valorous Stance and 2 Bile Blight? The RW and RUW tokens decks are so popular right now that running Bile Blight in the main gives us the opportunity to really clean up in game one.
Overall, I really like your list!
For reference, here's the Abzan list that I've been playing, undefeated now for 2 weeks at FNM (not saying a lot necessarily but the deck itself is the result of a lot of testing).
Someone smarter than me did some complicated math when we were building the deck and concluded that a one-drop that wasn't Warden of the First Tree was the optimal 60th card. For awhile I pushed for a 4th Abzan Charm in its place, but after a lot of playing I actually really like it. Extra information is always fantastic in game one, and you never worry about hitting multiples, obviously. It also allows for the full 4 post board against control and combo. Finally, it's the best turn 1 play I can have if I'm looking to score an early Tasigur.
Went 5-3 at a PTQ in Worcester, MA today. I was surprised by the uniformity in my matches. I never faced a mirror match. The closest thing to that was abzan reanimator, which I did well against and got a win. I also had a win against a Red-Black warriors/aggro deck, and the rest of my matches were all RW-based, either midrange, tokens, or general aggro. Also, I didn't really go 5-3 but rather 3-3, and then the last 2 rounds my opponents didn't show up so I got wins after 10 minutes. 5-3 was good enough for 6 booster packs.
This is my list that has Top 8ed 3 out of 4 50+ people FNMs and Top 4ed 4 20+ people TNMs. Just so it's clear, it adjusted to face the huge number of control players in my meta and considering they tend to be the best players out here too, including last season's SCG State Champ, so the competition is fierce at my store. The one time I didn't place was because I was still recovering from the flu and my head wasn't really in the game.
Some notes:
- Before Fate, 4 Thoughtseizes were in the main in place of Tasigur, one Downfall, and one Brimaz. The reason why I replaced them was I wanted to increase the threat density that are tough to get rid of and have potential to win the games on their own. Every creature has a huge "kill me ASAP" target on them, and that's the point.
- Deathdealer still wins me more games than any other card next to Rhino.
- The only bad matchups are green devotion lists or decks heavy on planeswalkers. Nissa and Ugin are the biggest threats.
- Good matchups are control, Jeskai tempo/tokens, Temur, and other aggro decks/ Whip decks postboard. UW Heroic and Mardu can go either way but feels fairly even.
- I've been 8-1 against control decks of all forms. It's great to play an deck that can finish the game by turn 4 or 5, but at the same time can go the long game against control and still win. It's also hilarious that Abzan Beastmaster never survives one turn against them, even if its out on the field with a Rhino, Deathdealer, etc. I love to see them waste a Downfall or Murderous Cut on a dinky 2/1.
- I love being able to play Drown in Sorrow in an aggro deck. I wiped out Mardu's board with Seeker, goblin tokens, and Rabblemaster on the field while my Brimaz and Lion survived.
- Overall I wouldn't go out of the way to say Abzan aggro is the best deck out there, but certainly is the most consistent and durable deck against the field.
I feel the same way about Drown in Sorrow. As an example, I brought three of them in against a Mardu tokens deck yesterday, taking out my 2 Warden of the First Tree and 1 Valorous Stance and loved it. It's so, so satisfying.
I love Warden, but I feel like it's awful in an aggro list, but good in the midrange one. In aggro, it competes with Deathdealer as a mana sink and you rather just play another creature than to level him up. Midrange has less things happening so it works better there.
Obviously, this is based on Hunter Nance's SCG list but with a couple of changes. I swapped out 1 Tasigur for the 4th Anafenza, because I expected some more Whip decks and Anafenza just hoses them hard while putting on a decent clock. The 3rd Courser became that lone Boon Satyr - in testing I found 3 Coursers to be too much - they're good, but as Mike Sigrist said you need to attack with this deck to win, which Courser is kind of meh at. So I put in a Boon Satyr and decided to test it out, because it attacks a lot better than ol' Courser. Lastly, I cut 2 Downfall for 1 Abzan Charm and 1 Murderous Cut - While Downfall is more versatile, I think the tempo swing Cut can provide is just really good. You can go Cut into creature later on, or removal spell into Cut for a big turn. I forgot why I put in the Charm, but it's probably because I remembered the third mode and concluded that it reads "Make your Courser of Kruphix attack", which is a mode I'd greatly appreciate here.
Sideboard is pretty usual stuff. From Nance's sideboard, I took out the Liliana Vess, 1 Glare, 1 Bile Blight and 1 Drown for the 4th Thoughtseize, the 3rd Downfall and 2 Hunt the Hunter. Hunt is a hilariously nutty card, and again, like Cut, provides some huge swings - Fleecemane can't attack past their Courser? Yeah, let's hunt that, swing in for 5, and cast another creature. I also considered Dark Betrayal, but realized that all but 3 of my creatures were green, and I like the Mutagenic Growth effect, because it helps me attack.
I don't remember how the other Swiss rounds went (lost the lifepad for some rounds), but here is what I remembered:
vs Jeskai Ascendancy Combo - W 2-0. G1 was nothing to note, he completely whiffed on the combo and the Cat Army (Lion + Rakshasa) beat him down. In G2 I keep a hand with no creatures, but with 2 answers to Ascendancy in Back to Nature and Glare. I Bile Blight/Drown his dorks, and manage to draw into a Lion and an Anafenza. At this point, I'm at 9 life (My first five lands were painlands :\ ), and he has a Caryatid + Mystic in play, along with a Briber's Purse with 1 counter (gotta stem the bleeding somehow). Cast Thoughtseize for 3. His hand is Swan Song, Helix, Helix. Great, he just needs the Ascendancy. I take the Swan Song so I can punch a hole through his combo if he draws it (Back to Nature in response to the first Helix, he can cast another and loot, but so long as he doesn't draw into a Swan Song I disrupt the combo). He doesn't, and I know he's on damage control when he casts Retraction Helix to stop himself from dying.
vs Jeskai Tempo - W 2-0. Haven't seen this one in a while! I take a quick G1 off the back of Rhino into Rhino into Roc smackdown. At this point everything he cast looked like Jeskai Tokens (Hordeling, Seeker, Stoke), so I sideboard as such. In G2 he plays out as normal, but some quick burn + painlands put me at a precarious life total. I manage to wipe his Brimaz + cat board with Drown in Sorrow + Cut, and thought I stabilize with a Courser at 8 life. He draws Mantis Rider and starts bashing me in the air. We try to race, and I'm at 2 and he's at 4 when I manage to kill the Rider. No biggie, he untaps, plays a second, and swings in. G3 he makes the first move with Rabblemaster, which immediately dies. I go Courser into Rhino, gaining a decent amount of life. He plays a Mantis Rider and starts swinging in, and I have a Bile Blight/Abzan Charm in hand, but decide to wait. We race for a couple of turns, getting to negate some damage via Courser, while he's dropping 4 life a turn. He plays a 2nd rider and swings in, bringing me down to 5. My turn, I untap, and cast the Bile Blight on the Rider. In response, he taps both and two mana for a Stoke aimed at Courser - unfortunately, I have the blowout Charm, and now swing in for 8, knocking him down to 4. He draws for his turn and drew some creature (Seeker, probably) and extends the hand.
vs Mardu Aggro - W 2-1. This is the version that T8'ed a recent Grand Prix, featuring everyone's favorite murderer Tymaret, the Murder King. I make very stupid plays in G1, including Bile Blight on a Goblin token when he has Tymaret in the yard. Eventually, he has some tokens and a Tymaret on board, and I foolishly attacked, not realizing that by swinging in I leave him with enough room to swing in next turn + shock me to death. I guess you could say.... Tymaret murdered me. Ouch. G2 goes much better - Courser and Rhino put me on a life buffer, and Sorin followed not too long after that. Turns out, Tymaret is terrible when he's the only thing on the battlefield. I keep a Thoughtseize/Anafenza/Rhino hand in G3 and see that he has kind of a loose keep - Stoke, Crackling Doom, and 3 lands (with a swamp and Bloodsoaked in play). Take Crackling, Bloodsoaked slaps me for a few turns. Cast Anafenza, he Stokes it next turn as expected. Now I can play my Rhino and just brickwall him. He follows up with some Hordeling/Raise the Alarm tokens, I respond with Blight on the goblins + a Fleecemane Lion. He bricks for a couple turns while I manage to make my Lion monstrous, and draw Sorin to start swinging in for crazy amounts of damage/life.
Semifinals vs Sultai Whip - 2-1. YES! Very, very confident in this matchup. I mulligan to six and found an Anafenza, so I kept it. I go Rakshasa into Anafenza, blanking all his Sidisis and Wayfinders. He still casts them, anyway, and manages to mill some removal for the Anafenza. He gets a Whip in play, though, + a couple of Coursers, so I can attack but deal like 1-2 damage per turn. This goes on for a while - he builds his board with random green dorks, while I play some Lions. This goes on for a long, long time until my board has Anafenza, Wingmate, 3 monstrous Fleecemane Lions, 3 Deathdealers and a whole lot of lands in play. He has 2 Hornet Queens, Whip, 8 hornet tokens and a Courser. The Cat Army swings in every turn, reducing the Hornet tokens until he has the 2 Queens left. He then draws.... Hero's Downfall, meaning that his Graveyard is unlocked again. Mills Soul of Innistrad, meaning he now has A LOT more hornet tokens than I thought he would. His library is also pretty low at this point, though.... and eventually, I win by milling him out. No, seriously. I milled him out. Score another for the Cat Army!
G2 is much less interesting, as I curve 2-drop into Anafenza into Rhino into Hunt the Hunter on Courser + Charm on Sidisi into Wingmate, while he's stuck at 4 lands. Not a pretty sight.
I win the Finals against a very interesting B/W aggro deck. I lost this one's paper as well, but I remember stabilizing with double Courser + Rhino + Sorin in G1 (he played Mogis' Marauder way too early), and him making a wrong attack in G2, allowing me to swing back with a 6/6 Rakshasa + Rhino for exactsies.
Afterwards I played a couple more games with other people with decks like R/W Aggro. Here are some notes:
- Undecided on Boon Satyr, because I never actually drew him in any game. Yeah.
- Alright, Courser is great. He provides a life buffer while being pretty good in a race, as he can block and let your other dudes swing in. I still do believe that this deck is meant to be aggressive and smashing faces, and while Courser is not good at that, we have decent support cards that can make that happen. Also, with decks like R/W Aggro being popular now, I really like him as he either brickwalls their guys or makes them spend a card on it. I am very happy with the 2-of number.
- More on R/W: If that becomes popular I may try to find a way to put in a 2nd Sorin main. Sorin allows you to race very well against the deck - and if they spend a turn taking it down, it effectively gained you that much more life. I may also move back to playing an Erase in the board again, because Outpost Siege (as well as Frontier Siege in Green decks) can get pretty crazy.
- Tasigur is good - big, dumb, can attack, and can get very cheap. Imagine spending 5 mana to get a Tasigur AND a Siege Rhino in play. I never actually got to use his ability, but I assume it's very good, because it can get back my threats/removal spells. I might try 2 like the SCG deck, we'll see.
Moving forward, I have a list of more cards to test. If anyone here has tested them and has some input, let me know:
- Brutal Hordechief: More Siege Rhinos? Sure, why not? I imagine that it'll be pretty nutty if you can untap with it and 5 mana in play. Otherwise it can't really attack like Rhino.
- Warden of the First Tree: I've tested this.... and I don't know, really not a fan. For a cheap creature, I think Rakshasa/Fleecemane are much better right now - they have built-in resilience whereas Warden does not. Also, this deck has no shortage of ways to spend mana in the midgame - your curve is up until 5, so when are you pumping this, exactly? Great lategame topdeck, but so is Fleecemane at 7 mana. If one of Lion/Rakshasa did not exist I would play this, and maybe as early creature 9-10. But I think Rakshasa and Lion are above it.
- Citadel Siege: blue, red and green are using theirs, so I'm wondering about this too. Both modes help our plan. One to try.
- Whisperwood Elemental: Alright, we do have built-in resilience against wraths, but this might be another way. Usually 6 power for 5, and the idea of having a new army after a wipe is pretty appealing. Okay, I'm just reaching here now.
- Valorous Stance: see above re: against wraths. Reprisal wasn't really played in Abzan Aggro before, either.
Will try to go through more of the thread later, but after taking a break and deciding to build Abzan Aggro getting back in I have to say it's really fun. I see a lot of the lists run Tasigur, the Golden Fang and I can kind of see why but didn't think to include him in my initial purchase.
Then I pulled one out of my prizes from FNM and would like to put him in my deck, just wondering if someone more experience with him and the deck could just give me a suggestion what my though process should be with him.
Congratulations on your victory, Archy! Fantastic report. It seems like those of us seeing success post Fate Reforged are drawing a lot of the same conclusions. I'm currently finding a place for 2 Coursers in my board, with 2 Warden of the First Tree main that I'd swap out for them in the appropriate matches.
Tasigur is indeed a lot of power.
Brutal Hordechief has been Rhino #5 for me and it has been pretty fantastic.
Will try to go through more of the thread later, but after taking a break and deciding to build Abzan Aggro getting back in I have to say it's really fun. I see a lot of the lists run Tasigur, the Golden Fang and I can kind of see why but didn't think to include him in my initial purchase.
Then I pulled one out of my prizes from FNM and would like to put him in my deck, just wondering if someone more experience with him and the deck could just give me a suggestion what my though process should be with him.
He'll usually come down the same time you could drop a Rhino, and if you're allowed to untap even once with him, you get card advantage. Don't worry about intentionally stocking your graveyard, because you've got other exciting things to do on turns 2-3. Just play it when you can. Think of it as a slightly slower Tarmogoyf with added value in the mid to late game.
When delving him out, don't forget to get rid of stuff you don't potentially want back, ie Thoughtseize.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1227828
I have to admit that before KTK came out, I was pretty sure Soldier of the Pantheon would be a seeing a lot of use, considering the number of creatures that can't block it and can't damage it. I suppose it's because of the amount of mono-colored removal we have right now that it doesn't see play, but I still wonder if that's a good reason not to play it, as it takes those removal spells away from other targets. And with Caryatid out of favor in the abzan builds right now, it might be better. That's probably why this guy elected to play it.
That said.. I don't think Soldier of the Pantheon is good enough to be a 4 of in aggro (let alone midrange). There's very little it actually stops, unless you're looking to shore up your game against multi-color randomness. I think there's better alternatives.
..but again.. a top 8 finish can't be ignored.
Also, regarding Silumgar...
Droptimal's list reminded me about: Merciless Executioner. I think he should be put at the top spot of ways to answer Silumgar/Sphinx.
..and Droptimal..
My quick and dirty suggestion would be to drop a Valorous Stance and add 3 Thoughtseize. Even better if you could get Thoughtseize to 4.
I think Thoughtseize and Garruk are a reasonable gameplan against Ugin and that's what I'm planning on, aside from just playing around it when I deploy my threats and removal. I'm not as worried about Ugin. I can see where Silumgar would be extremely difficult to deal with. If it sees much play, I guess I'd consider Dead Drop as an answer since we can probably fill our graveyard with Heaths and Thoughseize pretty easily. Hornet tokens die to Silumgar, but the queen herself would be an adequate blocker or attacker. Also, one Anafenza counter can make a Wingmate Roc (or bird token) capable of blocking Silumgar. Still, those 2 cards in particular do force Abzan midrange to contort a bit.
I like your ideas for the most part. As AsrialX pointed out, an aggressive deck like this is where Thoughtseize really shines. I'd try it in the main deck.
My main concern for your deck is the mana base, specifically black sources. Bile Blight, Downfall, and Deathdealer all demand multiple black sources. To support that, you should have AT LEAST 16 black-producing lands, and the math actually says 18. Yes, your multiple copies of Urborg will help . . . if you draw them. I'd highly recommend adding two more black sources, probably by turning one fetch, one forest, one plains, and perhaps even both swamps (because Deathdealers want GG too!), and adding an equal number of Scry lands. You run a low enough curve that one, possibly two, tapped lands won't be a problem.
I like the outside-the-box thinking that got us to Merciless Executioner and Dead Drop. They may prove to be very effective going forward.
For now, I'm going to bring Thoughtseize back to my 75. It's just a more-universal answer, and a card we can play any time. My main concern about facing control is that they can present such a variety of extremely problematic cards, most of which require unique answers. What happens if we bring in Dead Drop, and the opponent never draws the singleton Silumgar, or worse, Elspeth made some tokens first? Thoughtseize is pre-emptive, and might let us keep our threats on the table instead of worrying about the opponent's. When played effectively, it lets us keep the initiative. I hope.
Good brainstorming though. Let's keep the ideas and feedback rolling.
Not money wasted. They will pretty much always see play in Modern and even in Legacy. Thoughtseize is probably a decent investment, as long as it doesn't get reprinted again.
Agreed: Thoughtseize is definitely a good investment.
What to cut? Well, for an aggro deck, you have an awful lot going on at 4 mana. Yes, they're all good, but what's best? They all do kind of the same job. I'd cut 2 Brutal Hordechief. For a third slot, you might actually drop a Hero's Downfall. You have other creature removal, and Thoughtseize and/or your creatures can handle opposing Planeswalkers.
Remember, timing is key to an effective Thoutseize. Identify which of the opponent's cards give you the most trouble, and Thoghtseize a turn before they could play that card. Or play it immediately before a key card, to draw out a counterspell or removal.
I think there's an exception for game 1, though... If you don't know what deck your opponent is playing, it can be dangerous to try and wait it out to figure out the deck before getting rid of a key card from their hand. The difference between Jeskai Tempo and Jeskai Tokens may not be obvious until the Ascendancy lands on the board. I'd rather play it T1 so I have a pretty good idea what deck they are playing. On G2 and G3 I agree with this strategy, though.
4 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Siege Rhino
4 Wingmate Roc
//Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
//Spells
3 Abzan Charm
3 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Forest
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Mana Confluence
2 Plains
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Silence
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Windswept Heath
3 Back to Nature
1 Bile Blight
4 Drown in Sorrow
3 Glare of Heresy
4 Thoughtseize
GWUBAtraxa and Her Superfriends
WUB Oloro, the Life Drain Train
URG Animar, Soul of Elements
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
BWTeysa Karlov, Scion of Orzhov
R Purphoros, Goblins of Pain ($100 Budget Challenge)
U Talrand, Fun Police (Needs updating)
Overall, I really like your list!
For reference, here's the Abzan list that I've been playing, undefeated now for 2 weeks at FNM (not saying a lot necessarily but the deck itself is the result of a lot of testing).
1 Forest
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Plenty
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Plains
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Mana Confluence
3 Temple of Malady
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Windswept Heath
Creatures
2 Warden of the First Tree
1 Heir of the Wilds
3 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Fleecemane Lion
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Brutal Hordechief
4 Siege Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Wildcall
1 Thoughtseize
Instants
2 Valorous Stance
3 Abzan Charm
3 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Rakshasa's Secret
1 Back to Nature
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3 Thoughtseize
4 Drown in Sorrow
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
This was the deck I played:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/06-01-15-abzan-aggromidrange/
How did Warden work out in that mix during early turns?
As I mentioned earlier.. my concern is that it conflicts with turn 2 and turn 4 plays and so stays 1/1 a lot.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Wingmate Roc
4 Siege Rhino
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
3 Brimaz, Hero of Oreskos
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Abzan Charm
4 Bile Blight
25 lands
1 Utter End
1 Silence the Believers
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Hushwing Gryff
2 Abzan Beastmaster
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Back to Nature
This is my list that has Top 8ed 3 out of 4 50+ people FNMs and Top 4ed 4 20+ people TNMs. Just so it's clear, it adjusted to face the huge number of control players in my meta and considering they tend to be the best players out here too, including last season's SCG State Champ, so the competition is fierce at my store. The one time I didn't place was because I was still recovering from the flu and my head wasn't really in the game.
Some notes:
- Before Fate, 4 Thoughtseizes were in the main in place of Tasigur, one Downfall, and one Brimaz. The reason why I replaced them was I wanted to increase the threat density that are tough to get rid of and have potential to win the games on their own. Every creature has a huge "kill me ASAP" target on them, and that's the point.
- Deathdealer still wins me more games than any other card next to Rhino.
- The only bad matchups are green devotion lists or decks heavy on planeswalkers. Nissa and Ugin are the biggest threats.
- Good matchups are control, Jeskai tempo/tokens, Temur, and other aggro decks/ Whip decks postboard. UW Heroic and Mardu can go either way but feels fairly even.
- I've been 8-1 against control decks of all forms. It's great to play an deck that can finish the game by turn 4 or 5, but at the same time can go the long game against control and still win. It's also hilarious that Abzan Beastmaster never survives one turn against them, even if its out on the field with a Rhino, Deathdealer, etc. I love to see them waste a Downfall or Murderous Cut on a dinky 2/1.
- I love being able to play Drown in Sorrow in an aggro deck. I wiped out Mardu's board with Seeker, goblin tokens, and Rabblemaster on the field while my Brimaz and Lion survived.
- Overall I wouldn't go out of the way to say Abzan aggro is the best deck out there, but certainly is the most consistent and durable deck against the field.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
I feel the same way about Drown in Sorrow. As an example, I brought three of them in against a Mardu tokens deck yesterday, taking out my 2 Warden of the First Tree and 1 Valorous Stance and loved it. It's so, so satisfying.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Boon Satyr
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
3 Wingmate Roc
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Thoughtseize
3 Bile Blight
3 Abzan Charm
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
3 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Plenty
2 Temple of Silence
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
1 Forest
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Caves of Koilos
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Hunt the Hunter
2 Thoughtseize
1 Back to Nature
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Drown in Sorrow
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Murderous Cut
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Obviously, this is based on Hunter Nance's SCG list but with a couple of changes. I swapped out 1 Tasigur for the 4th Anafenza, because I expected some more Whip decks and Anafenza just hoses them hard while putting on a decent clock. The 3rd Courser became that lone Boon Satyr - in testing I found 3 Coursers to be too much - they're good, but as Mike Sigrist said you need to attack with this deck to win, which Courser is kind of meh at. So I put in a Boon Satyr and decided to test it out, because it attacks a lot better than ol' Courser. Lastly, I cut 2 Downfall for 1 Abzan Charm and 1 Murderous Cut - While Downfall is more versatile, I think the tempo swing Cut can provide is just really good. You can go Cut into creature later on, or removal spell into Cut for a big turn. I forgot why I put in the Charm, but it's probably because I remembered the third mode and concluded that it reads "Make your Courser of Kruphix attack", which is a mode I'd greatly appreciate here.
Sideboard is pretty usual stuff. From Nance's sideboard, I took out the Liliana Vess, 1 Glare, 1 Bile Blight and 1 Drown for the 4th Thoughtseize, the 3rd Downfall and 2 Hunt the Hunter. Hunt is a hilariously nutty card, and again, like Cut, provides some huge swings - Fleecemane can't attack past their Courser? Yeah, let's hunt that, swing in for 5, and cast another creature. I also considered Dark Betrayal, but realized that all but 3 of my creatures were green, and I like the Mutagenic Growth effect, because it helps me attack.
I don't remember how the other Swiss rounds went (lost the lifepad for some rounds), but here is what I remembered:
vs Jeskai Ascendancy Combo - W 2-0. G1 was nothing to note, he completely whiffed on the combo and the Cat Army (Lion + Rakshasa) beat him down. In G2 I keep a hand with no creatures, but with 2 answers to Ascendancy in Back to Nature and Glare. I Bile Blight/Drown his dorks, and manage to draw into a Lion and an Anafenza. At this point, I'm at 9 life (My first five lands were painlands :\ ), and he has a Caryatid + Mystic in play, along with a Briber's Purse with 1 counter (gotta stem the bleeding somehow). Cast Thoughtseize for 3. His hand is Swan Song, Helix, Helix. Great, he just needs the Ascendancy. I take the Swan Song so I can punch a hole through his combo if he draws it (Back to Nature in response to the first Helix, he can cast another and loot, but so long as he doesn't draw into a Swan Song I disrupt the combo). He doesn't, and I know he's on damage control when he casts Retraction Helix to stop himself from dying.
vs Jeskai Tempo - W 2-0. Haven't seen this one in a while! I take a quick G1 off the back of Rhino into Rhino into Roc smackdown. At this point everything he cast looked like Jeskai Tokens (Hordeling, Seeker, Stoke), so I sideboard as such. In G2 he plays out as normal, but some quick burn + painlands put me at a precarious life total. I manage to wipe his Brimaz + cat board with Drown in Sorrow + Cut, and thought I stabilize with a Courser at 8 life. He draws Mantis Rider and starts bashing me in the air. We try to race, and I'm at 2 and he's at 4 when I manage to kill the Rider. No biggie, he untaps, plays a second, and swings in. G3 he makes the first move with Rabblemaster, which immediately dies. I go Courser into Rhino, gaining a decent amount of life. He plays a Mantis Rider and starts swinging in, and I have a Bile Blight/Abzan Charm in hand, but decide to wait. We race for a couple of turns, getting to negate some damage via Courser, while he's dropping 4 life a turn. He plays a 2nd rider and swings in, bringing me down to 5. My turn, I untap, and cast the Bile Blight on the Rider. In response, he taps both and two mana for a Stoke aimed at Courser - unfortunately, I have the blowout Charm, and now swing in for 8, knocking him down to 4. He draws for his turn and drew some creature (Seeker, probably) and extends the hand.
vs Mardu Aggro - W 2-1. This is the version that T8'ed a recent Grand Prix, featuring everyone's favorite murderer Tymaret, the Murder King. I make very stupid plays in G1, including Bile Blight on a Goblin token when he has Tymaret in the yard. Eventually, he has some tokens and a Tymaret on board, and I foolishly attacked, not realizing that by swinging in I leave him with enough room to swing in next turn + shock me to death. I guess you could say.... Tymaret murdered me. Ouch. G2 goes much better - Courser and Rhino put me on a life buffer, and Sorin followed not too long after that. Turns out, Tymaret is terrible when he's the only thing on the battlefield. I keep a Thoughtseize/Anafenza/Rhino hand in G3 and see that he has kind of a loose keep - Stoke, Crackling Doom, and 3 lands (with a swamp and Bloodsoaked in play). Take Crackling, Bloodsoaked slaps me for a few turns. Cast Anafenza, he Stokes it next turn as expected. Now I can play my Rhino and just brickwall him. He follows up with some Hordeling/Raise the Alarm tokens, I respond with Blight on the goblins + a Fleecemane Lion. He bricks for a couple turns while I manage to make my Lion monstrous, and draw Sorin to start swinging in for crazy amounts of damage/life.
Semifinals vs Sultai Whip - 2-1. YES! Very, very confident in this matchup. I mulligan to six and found an Anafenza, so I kept it. I go Rakshasa into Anafenza, blanking all his Sidisis and Wayfinders. He still casts them, anyway, and manages to mill some removal for the Anafenza. He gets a Whip in play, though, + a couple of Coursers, so I can attack but deal like 1-2 damage per turn. This goes on for a while - he builds his board with random green dorks, while I play some Lions. This goes on for a long, long time until my board has Anafenza, Wingmate, 3 monstrous Fleecemane Lions, 3 Deathdealers and a whole lot of lands in play. He has 2 Hornet Queens, Whip, 8 hornet tokens and a Courser. The Cat Army swings in every turn, reducing the Hornet tokens until he has the 2 Queens left. He then draws.... Hero's Downfall, meaning that his Graveyard is unlocked again. Mills Soul of Innistrad, meaning he now has A LOT more hornet tokens than I thought he would. His library is also pretty low at this point, though.... and eventually, I win by milling him out. No, seriously. I milled him out. Score another for the Cat Army!
G2 is much less interesting, as I curve 2-drop into Anafenza into Rhino into Hunt the Hunter on Courser + Charm on Sidisi into Wingmate, while he's stuck at 4 lands. Not a pretty sight.
I win the Finals against a very interesting B/W aggro deck. I lost this one's paper as well, but I remember stabilizing with double Courser + Rhino + Sorin in G1 (he played Mogis' Marauder way too early), and him making a wrong attack in G2, allowing me to swing back with a 6/6 Rakshasa + Rhino for exactsies.
Afterwards I played a couple more games with other people with decks like R/W Aggro. Here are some notes:
- Undecided on Boon Satyr, because I never actually drew him in any game. Yeah.
- Alright, Courser is great. He provides a life buffer while being pretty good in a race, as he can block and let your other dudes swing in. I still do believe that this deck is meant to be aggressive and smashing faces, and while Courser is not good at that, we have decent support cards that can make that happen. Also, with decks like R/W Aggro being popular now, I really like him as he either brickwalls their guys or makes them spend a card on it. I am very happy with the 2-of number.
- More on R/W: If that becomes popular I may try to find a way to put in a 2nd Sorin main. Sorin allows you to race very well against the deck - and if they spend a turn taking it down, it effectively gained you that much more life. I may also move back to playing an Erase in the board again, because Outpost Siege (as well as Frontier Siege in Green decks) can get pretty crazy.
- Tasigur is good - big, dumb, can attack, and can get very cheap. Imagine spending 5 mana to get a Tasigur AND a Siege Rhino in play. I never actually got to use his ability, but I assume it's very good, because it can get back my threats/removal spells. I might try 2 like the SCG deck, we'll see.
Moving forward, I have a list of more cards to test. If anyone here has tested them and has some input, let me know:
- Brutal Hordechief: More Siege Rhinos? Sure, why not? I imagine that it'll be pretty nutty if you can untap with it and 5 mana in play. Otherwise it can't really attack like Rhino.
- Warden of the First Tree: I've tested this.... and I don't know, really not a fan. For a cheap creature, I think Rakshasa/Fleecemane are much better right now - they have built-in resilience whereas Warden does not. Also, this deck has no shortage of ways to spend mana in the midgame - your curve is up until 5, so when are you pumping this, exactly? Great lategame topdeck, but so is Fleecemane at 7 mana. If one of Lion/Rakshasa did not exist I would play this, and maybe as early creature 9-10. But I think Rakshasa and Lion are above it.
- Citadel Siege: blue, red and green are using theirs, so I'm wondering about this too. Both modes help our plan. One to try.
- Whisperwood Elemental: Alright, we do have built-in resilience against wraths, but this might be another way. Usually 6 power for 5, and the idea of having a new army after a wipe is pretty appealing. Okay, I'm just reaching here now.
- Valorous Stance: see above re: against wraths. Reprisal wasn't really played in Abzan Aggro before, either.
Then I pulled one out of my prizes from FNM and would like to put him in my deck, just wondering if someone more experience with him and the deck could just give me a suggestion what my though process should be with him.
Standard
WBGWBGABZAN AGGROWBGWBG
Tasigur is indeed a lot of power.
Brutal Hordechief has been Rhino #5 for me and it has been pretty fantastic.
I did a lot of testing with Whisperwood Elemental, but personally concluded that Valorous Stance is the wrath protection that I need.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang is good at all times against everyone. Seriously.
He'll usually come down the same time you could drop a Rhino, and if you're allowed to untap even once with him, you get card advantage. Don't worry about intentionally stocking your graveyard, because you've got other exciting things to do on turns 2-3. Just play it when you can. Think of it as a slightly slower Tarmogoyf with added value in the mid to late game.
When delving him out, don't forget to get rid of stuff you don't potentially want back, ie Thoughtseize.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU