I don't like I Indulgent Torment because you're suppose to play super valuable creatures that are hard to deal with. Indulgent Tormentor can't block anything and his effect really isn't that good, it's more of a win more. If you're behind they'll just pay 3 to prevent you from doing anything. Also I think you have to many walkers. I think 4 is the max for this deck imo, and Elspeth is mandatory
I updated my list, I'm only running 1 Sorin and 2 Elspeth. You might be right about Tormentor though, I may swap to X2 Rocs
I took my current Abzan midrange deck and proxied in 4 Siege Rhinos as well as some other KTK cards I wanted to try and Whip of Erebos was very strong in there. So, I don't know if it's "right", but I'm going to run 2 Whips until I have a good reason not to. I can always board one or both out in games 2 or 3 if it doesn't work for a given match. It's just really great to have a lifegain tool against aggro and a recursion tool against control--and it's not exactly a dud against midrange. Drawing the second Whip isn't horrible either because with expensive creatures, it's not like you're just dumping your entire hand on the board by turn 5 anyway and if your opponent is running any kind of enchantment/artifact removal, they will almost certainly target the 1st Whip if you start flinging lifelinking Siege Rhinos around.
I would also contribute with my decklist, which I intend to play in the new season. First, but here I will publish decklist, which I played until the arrival of KTK. I played with it few tournamets. This deck had problem, when opponent killed every my beasts and I had empty board with hand full of Ajani...
It has been a beast on Cockatrice. So far I've lost twice: once was to a mono red aggro, and I just got land flooded. The second loss was to the mirror, and that was horrible. Just super long, fairly boring games. Against control type decks, definitely side out the caryatids. I found myself drawing them and had no use. Whip is what I usually pull in against a control style deck. Seems to work pretty well. Duneblast might be a little too cute, but I've cast it 3 times and each time it won me the game. I don't think I'll be cutting it any time soon. The current sideboard is a total mess. I just threw some stuff in there and have been slowly adjusting as I play. Despise is pretty good against RUG monsters, but I will probably trim it down, or cut entirely. As for the other cards: Bile Blight is for any sort of token deck or aggro, as is drown in sorrow; Nyx Fleece is against aggro and burn; and Utter End is just a catch all to anything else.
Private Mod Note
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
It has been a beast on Cockatrice. So far I've lost twice: once was to a mono red aggro, and I just got land flooded. The second loss was to the mirror, and that was horrible. Just super long, fairly boring games. Against control type decks, definitely side out the caryatids. I found myself drawing them and had no use. Whip is what I usually pull in against a control style deck. Seems to work pretty well. Duneblast might be a little too cute, but I've cast it 3 times and each time it won me the game. I don't think I'll be cutting it any time soon. The current sideboard is a total mess. I just threw some stuff in there and have been slowly adjusting as I play. Despise is pretty good against RUG monsters, but I will probably trim it down, or cut entirely. As for the other cards: Bile Blight is for any sort of token deck or aggro, as is drown in sorrow; Nyx Fleece is against aggro and burn; and Utter End is just a catch all to anything else.
Now that I've played the mirror too I agree that it's grindy and monotonous.
Wanted to tell everyone in the thread so far: GREAT WORK! We've really come a long ways very quickly. Just a little over a week and we'll have some actual tournament results to share. Then comes the consolidation!
One random, hopefully-helpful thought: Jeskai Storm. Um. Thoughtseize, obviously. But Stain The Mind if it takes off. Kill their mana dorks.
It has been a beast on Cockatrice. So far I've lost twice: once was to a mono red aggro, and I just got land flooded. The second loss was to the mirror, and that was horrible. Just super long, fairly boring games. Against control type decks, definitely side out the caryatids. I found myself drawing them and had no use. Whip is what I usually pull in against a control style deck. Seems to work pretty well. Duneblast might be a little too cute, but I've cast it 3 times and each time it won me the game. I don't think I'll be cutting it any time soon. The current sideboard is a total mess. I just threw some stuff in there and have been slowly adjusting as I play. Despise is pretty good against RUG monsters, but I will probably trim it down, or cut entirely. As for the other cards: Bile Blight is for any sort of token deck or aggro, as is drown in sorrow; Nyx Fleece is against aggro and burn; and Utter End is just a catch all to anything else.
I'm kind of partial to running a 3-toughness creature like Herald of Torment, Brimaz, Polukranos, or Fleecemane instead of Rakshasa just because I like 3 Drown in Sorrow in the sideboard and I don't like killing my own creatures. Otherwise, I like your mix. Duneblast seems like a good 1-of that you might be really happy to draw when you're behind or stalemated.
How has Read the Bones been? The potential land life-loss, thoughtseize life loss, and abzan charm life loss can mount up in my deck.
Yeah, I wanted to run Read the Bones, but I had Thoughtseize, Abzan Charm, land pain, and my version runs a couple of Herald of Torment (either a decent 3 drop, or he turns Brimaz/Reaper into a beast), so I couldn't do it. I just have to live with scry, which is OK since the deck is so full of threats and answers and it's hard to empty your hand.
Read the bones has been great. Being able to see up to 4 cards is very beneficial. Especially late game. The deck does tax your life total for sure, but Siege Rhino and Courser do pretty good work keeping you in it. Plus I side in Nyx Fleece or Whip for games where it's needed. I've also cut the painlands to help cut back on life loss. I might put in the new life gaining duals as well if it proves to be an issue.
I'm kind of partial to running a 3-toughness creature like Herald of Torment, Brimaz, Polukranos, or Fleecemane instead of Rakshasa just because I like 3 Drown in Sorrow in the sideboard and I don't like killing my own creatures. Otherwise, I like your mix. Duneblast seems like a good 1-of that you might be really happy to draw when you're behind or stalemated.
Yea I'm mostly trying a split of Fleecemane and Rakshasa. At the very least you can pump the rakshasa to survive drown in sorrow. I completely neglected Brimaz. I should look for room for him.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Everyone keeps talking about brings but can we support brimaz, courser, heroes downfall, plus drown in sorrow/bile blight out of the sideboard. That's a lot of dual mana on turn 3.
Everyone keeps talking about brings but can we support brimaz, courser, heroes downfall, plus drown in sorrow/bile blight out of the sideboard. That's a lot of dual mana on turn 3.
Well this deck usually isn't trying to hit the perfect curve, at least with my experience. Hitting any of the double costed spells by 3-5 is usually ok. And with fetches, tri lands, and caryatid, it's much more consistent than you might expect.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
personally i've tested this and had great success with it. drop a few matches occasionally but mostly from keeping awkward or slow hands when i need fast hands
What do you of Wingmate Roc as a one of, maybe dropping one polukranos? Also how does your deck handle Sagi Mauler on turn 4 attacking you?
Land, mystic
Land, caryatid / courser / new mana dork face up
Land, face down mauler (bluffing their morph mana dork)
Land, swing mauler and morph for 5.
That seems pretty brutal and i think temur is going to be ramping pretty often like that.
I'm waiting to see how the meta works out before really committing to the sideboard, but if you are finding a lot of maulers (or hexproof in general) it might be worth considering dead drop in the side.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
I'm going to try a list very similar to SuperSeed and I have to need to fill two slots in the mainboard. I may also switch 1 Temple of Plenty and 1 Temple of Silence for 1 Llanowar Wastes and 1 Caves of Koilos if 10 is to many tap lands (which I doubt it is.) I also need a lot of help thinning our sideboard choices out to a solid 15..
We currently have a pretty decent curve being extremely low (or none) at the 1cmc and 5cmc or higher and having almost have our deck in the 2/3/4cmc spots. It allows us to get a good board presence early game, and then play multiple spells a turn if needed late game.
I updated my list, I'm only running 1 Sorin and 2 Elspeth. You might be right about Tormentor though, I may swap to X2 Rocs
I took my current Abzan midrange deck and proxied in 4 Siege Rhinos as well as some other KTK cards I wanted to try and Whip of Erebos was very strong in there. So, I don't know if it's "right", but I'm going to run 2 Whips until I have a good reason not to. I can always board one or both out in games 2 or 3 if it doesn't work for a given match. It's just really great to have a lifegain tool against aggro and a recursion tool against control--and it's not exactly a dud against midrange. Drawing the second Whip isn't horrible either because with expensive creatures, it's not like you're just dumping your entire hand on the board by turn 5 anyway and if your opponent is running any kind of enchantment/artifact removal, they will almost certainly target the 1st Whip if you start flinging lifelinking Siege Rhinos around.
Also what about Chord of Calling? I have a playset I want to do something with.
An enigma as vexing as life itself.
Also hornet queen is a lot slower than Wingmate roc, and offers no life gain without whip or sorin
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
I would also contribute with my decklist, which I intend to play in the new season. First, but here I will publish decklist, which I played until the arrival of KTK. I played with it few tournamets. This deck had problem, when opponent killed every my beasts and I had empty board with hand full of Ajani...
Old version without KTK:
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Forest
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Mana Confluence
1 Plains
4 Temple of Plenty
4 Temple of Silence
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures (23)
1 Athreos, God of Passage
2 Boon Satyr
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Fleecemane Lion
1 Hushwing Gryff
2 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Banishing Light
4 Hero's Downfall
Planeswalkers (6)
3 Ajani Steadfast
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Liliana Vess
1 Athreos, God of Passage
2 Ajani's Presence
1 Boon Satyr
4 Doomwake Giant
1 Hushwing Gryff
2 Reclamation Sage
4 Setessan Tactics
Planned version is here:
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Forest
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Mana Confluence
2 Plains
4 Temple of Plenty
4 Temple of Silence
1 Sandsteppe Citadel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures (24)
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Fleecemane Lion
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Siege Rhino
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Abzan Charm
1 Banishing Light
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers (3)
1 Ajani Steadfast
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Athreos, God of Passage
2 Ajani's Presence
2 Ajani Steadfast
4 Setessan Tactics
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Hushwing Gryff
2 Thoughtseize
PS: I apologize for possible errors in the text.
2 Fleecemane Lion
4 Courser of Kruphix
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Siege Rhino
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Instants and Sorceries (16)
2 Abzan Charm
2 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Utter End
1 Duneblast
2 Read the Bones
4 Thoughtseize
5 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Sandsteppe Citatdel
3 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Silence
4 Windswept Heath
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Bile Blight
2 Utter End
2 Nyx Fleece Ram
3 Drown in Sorrow
4 Despise
2 Whip of Erebos
It has been a beast on Cockatrice. So far I've lost twice: once was to a mono red aggro, and I just got land flooded. The second loss was to the mirror, and that was horrible. Just super long, fairly boring games. Against control type decks, definitely side out the caryatids. I found myself drawing them and had no use. Whip is what I usually pull in against a control style deck. Seems to work pretty well. Duneblast might be a little too cute, but I've cast it 3 times and each time it won me the game. I don't think I'll be cutting it any time soon. The current sideboard is a total mess. I just threw some stuff in there and have been slowly adjusting as I play. Despise is pretty good against RUG monsters, but I will probably trim it down, or cut entirely. As for the other cards: Bile Blight is for any sort of token deck or aggro, as is drown in sorrow; Nyx Fleece is against aggro and burn; and Utter End is just a catch all to anything else.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
How has Ajani Steadfast worked for you?
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Now that I've played the mirror too I agree that it's grindy and monotonous.
How has Read the Bones been? The potential land life-loss, thoughtseize life loss, and abzan charm life loss can mount up in my deck.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
One random, hopefully-helpful thought: Jeskai Storm. Um. Thoughtseize, obviously. But Stain The Mind if it takes off. Kill their mana dorks.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
That could certainly be the right way to go. One of each would definitely minimize the dead draw factor of running 2 of either.
I'm kind of partial to running a 3-toughness creature like Herald of Torment, Brimaz, Polukranos, or Fleecemane instead of Rakshasa just because I like 3 Drown in Sorrow in the sideboard and I don't like killing my own creatures. Otherwise, I like your mix. Duneblast seems like a good 1-of that you might be really happy to draw when you're behind or stalemated.
Yeah, I wanted to run Read the Bones, but I had Thoughtseize, Abzan Charm, land pain, and my version runs a couple of Herald of Torment (either a decent 3 drop, or he turns Brimaz/Reaper into a beast), so I couldn't do it. I just have to live with scry, which is OK since the deck is so full of threats and answers and it's hard to empty your hand.
Read the bones has been great. Being able to see up to 4 cards is very beneficial. Especially late game. The deck does tax your life total for sure, but Siege Rhino and Courser do pretty good work keeping you in it. Plus I side in Nyx Fleece or Whip for games where it's needed. I've also cut the painlands to help cut back on life loss. I might put in the new life gaining duals as well if it proves to be an issue.
Yea I'm mostly trying a split of Fleecemane and Rakshasa. At the very least you can pump the rakshasa to survive drown in sorrow. I completely neglected Brimaz. I should look for room for him.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
Well this deck usually isn't trying to hit the perfect curve, at least with my experience. Hitting any of the double costed spells by 3-5 is usually ok. And with fetches, tri lands, and caryatid, it's much more consistent than you might expect.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
4 sylvan caryatid
4 courser of kruphix
2 reaper of the wilds
2 polukranos, the world eater
4 siege rhino
Instants: 11
2 hero's downfall
2 silence the believers
4 abzan charm
2 bile blight
1 utter end
enchantment: 2
2 banishing light
sorcery: 4
4 Thoughtseize
2 elspeht. sun's champion
1 Sorin, solemn visitor
Lands: 24
3 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Plenty
2 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Windswept Heath
3 forest
3 plains
2 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 mana confluence
1 banishing light
1 deicide
1 silence the believers
1 utter end
2 despise
2 drown in sorrow
2 nyx-fleece ram
1 unravel the aether
1 anafenza, the foremost
3 mistcutter hydra
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Courser of Kruphix
3x Polukranos, World Eater
3x Fleecemane Lion
4x Siege Rhino
2x Rakshasa Deathdealer
Instants / Sorcery's (11)
3x Hero's Downfall
3x Abzan Charm
3x Thoughtseize
1x Bile Blight
1x Utter End
Enchantment (1)
1x Whip of Erebos
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Lands (24)
2x Mana Confluence
4x Temple of Malady
4x Forest
1x Plains
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Windswept Heath
3x Temple of Silence
3x Temple of Plenty
1x Caves of Koilos
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Banishing Light
1x Liliana Vess
2x Dark Betrayal
1x Thoughtseize
1x Despise
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
2x Last Breath
2x Drown in Sorrow
2x Nyx-Fleece Ram
1x Bile Blight
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
I mean i've been using him all standard pretty much, the thing is insane. Couldn't see a list without him TBH.
Land, mystic
Land, caryatid / courser / new mana dork face up
Land, face down mauler (bluffing their morph mana dork)
Land, swing mauler and morph for 5.
That seems pretty brutal and i think temur is going to be ramping pretty often like that.
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Windstorm is a niche answer to Prognostic Spinx, Butcher of the Hoard, Stormbreath Dragon, and friends that could end up in the board also. We do have a weakness to fliers.
re: Sagu Mauler. I haven't played against him yet actually, but I can see it being trouble.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
My Caryatid ended up with a +1/+1 counter on it, then I Bile Blight my Caryatid and kill both of his.
Just a move to consider
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
3 Fleecemane Lion
2 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Siege Rhino
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Polukranos, World Eater
Planeswalkers (3)
2 Elspeth, the Sun's Champion
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Spells (12)
1 Whip of Erebos
3 Abzan Charm
1 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Utter End
3 Thoughtseize
4 Forest
1 Plains
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Llanowar Wastes
2 Mana Confluence
4 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Plenty
3 Temple of Silence
4 Windswept Heath
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Nyx-Fleece Ram
1 Liliana Vess
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Silence the Believers
1 Utter End
3 Drown in Sorrow
1 Thoughtseize
58/60 cards are in the main board right now. I would consider these cards to fill the slot:
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Bile Blight
And here are the sideboard choices:
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Bile Blight
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Last Breath
2 Despise
We currently have a pretty decent curve being extremely low (or none) at the 1cmc and 5cmc or higher and having almost have our deck in the 2/3/4cmc spots. It allows us to get a good board presence early game, and then play multiple spells a turn if needed late game.
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU