Game one- 2-0 Temur Monsters Game one: Went pretty quickly, I was able to draw removal to keep his board clear till a Siege Rhino did him in Sideboard: Sided in Murderous Cut, Hero's Downfall, Utter End, and End Hostilities. Sided out: Elspeth, 1 Courser, 3 Thoughtseize Game two; Board state was pretty clogged, I had a siege rhino, a Sorin 2 monstrous fleecemane and a Roc. He had 2 Hornet nest, a Sarkhan and the temur pump guy whose names escapes me. Nothing really happened till I drew doomwake Giant and then played a Courser same turn to get rid of his Hornets nest he scooped
Game Two- 2-0 Abzan Midrange Game one: Got a turn 5 elspeth down, made 3 soldiers and passed. He downfalls the Elspeth, next turn I drop Ajani, pump each soldier and swing, Repeat that twice more, while keeping his board clear with removal Sideboard: Took out 2 Elspeth, 1 Sorin, 1 Courser, 2 Fleecemane Lion,1 Bile Blight 1 Thoughtseize. Sided in Duneblast, End Hostilities, Hornet Queen, Liliana, Utter End, Murderous Cut. Game two: Probably my favorite game of the night, we started off one for one-ing each other. He got a Nissa out and made the 4/4 forest, swung with it till I was at 4. Went to swing for the win and I bile blighted the forest so I only took 1. Top decked a rhino, went to 6, next turn dropped lily and tutored a seige rhino on top, next turn played the rhino, went up to 9, tutored another rhino to the top. I eventually wore him down by tutoring all my rhinos to the top. It was awesome
Game Three- 2-0 Mardu Midrange Game one: Got three coursers out early while he only had rabble master and goblin tokens, then dropped a whip of erebos, He just couldn't keep up with all the life gain and scooped to a rhino Sideboard: Out- 2 Elspeth, 1 Courser, 3 thoughtseize. In- Drown in Sorrow, Erase and Brimaz Game Two: went pretty quick, able to answer his creatures and erase came in to save a fleecemane who went monstrous the next turn. Rode the kitty to victory
is almost identical to yours. Did you arrive at this list independently? There are a couple differences in mb decisions (mainly the seizes), but I think overall we have very similar decks. How has liliana worked? I know she won you that game with tutoring rhinos and i did like it when i had it mb in other builds. Any comments on my build? I'm going to GP San Antonio and i'm trying to tweak my build a bit for the metagame. Currently, I'm thinking about moving murderous cut to mb instead of bile blight, since I have the 2 doom giants mb for token sweep and cut is just great, efficient removal that can help in the bigger matchups like Mardu and Temur, which seems like where the meta is going. Lots of talk about Reaper of the Wilds, but I just don't see it being better than other options. That and Anafenza are both my questionable cards. Might also go with Duneblast instead of end hositilities, but at the same time, 2 mana is a big difference. I'm also not absolutely sure I need both Doom giants in the main, though i'm ok with both somewhere in the 75. Great synergy with Pharika and she's also good against random reanimator shenanigans. I also am wondering about Brimaz. Some decks run him against aggro, but I've never been convinced. Would love to bounce some ideas off you since yyour deck is so similar.
I did come to the list independently for the most part (obviously been watching this forum, then tweaked it to fit my meta). I really like Liliana, I've only seen her that one game though, but she did so well I've kind of been considering maybe swapping a doomwake with her. After the other night I kind of want to go a more walker heavy direction, maybe replacing both giants with Nissas. How has Deathdealer been working for you? I had them originally but swapped them for Fleecemane because I found them a little underwhelming. Reaper seems pretty solid. That scry ability could be game altering. Duneblast plus the reaper? Freakin' awesome. Brimaz I typically bring in against aggro and mardu. He eats tokens and the ability to attack and block each turn is great. What matches are you siding in your seizes? I found myself taking them out except against Jeskai and the Mirror.
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Does anyone have any experience facing U/B Pure Control with Abzan? I've had trouble with it at my LGS since it appeared a couple weeks ago.
My initial thought was that we could (especially with a non-Caryatid build) apply consistent pressure with threats & card advantage, but when my opponent and I compared notes after the match, we realized he actually had more answers than I had threats -- and I have 26 creatures & planeswalkers, plus 3 Thoughtseize. So, if he has more removal & counterspells than our threats, what's the plan?
Thanks for your response man. You bring up some great talking points. I also only got to use her sparingly when I had her as a 1 of in my mb. She's subtly good. See I'm a big Ajani fan as he is always good. He's always able to do something fairly game changing for you. Lily isn't that kind of in your face card, but tutoring just seems so good in mb. I might cut an anafenza as I am starting to think it's a crutch against reanimator. Then do the doom giant split mb/sb like you're saying. I would probably mb her if she was in my 75
I am also a big proponent of doom giants though. I don't think I would ever mb nissa. Personally I don't see her appeal. I understand a 4/4 every turn is straight ca, but there are so many answers to that right now. That said, she's also incredibly powerful. My reason for not including her is because I mb whip and that I feel is a great card against control. Nissa is usually played sb against u/b control variants with vault. I just don't think my matchup needs her but if I did do anything I would cut a seize.
Which leads to thoughtseize. I actually think I'm making some huge mistake by not playing 4 md as it's so incredibly powerful. I've never felt like anything I drew in my deck would have been better as a seize. I just think it can be a dead draw against the many midrange decks out there that I have kept it in the board. The thing is that it is an absolute beast against control, combo and Aggro that it I couldn't see playing less than all four. I just think our matchup is not terribly worse game 1 against those decks compared to how poorly they perform when you need that crucial top deck. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on them. Which oddly leads to the deathdealers.
An early at like the cats can be very good against Aggro. And having a threat out has been great in all matchups. In my experience, I can honestly say deathdealer has absolutely over performed. I've actually thought abut going 3/1 death/fleece. I just don't think fleece is that good. I just love everything about the dealer. It's just so versatile, whereas the fleece is a lot of the times a 3/3 for 2 that eats removal. Granted, it can take over a game, so that's why I've (and prolly will) stick with the 2/2 split, but dealer's pump can do it faster and still protect itself from a lot of removal. It's also synergies well with sweepers. Which leads to.
I am really torn between hostilities and duneblast lately. I will only run one, but I can't decide what. I like that hostilities is cheap so I could keep a dealer around, but for the same price I could keep any creature around. Then again, I feel like my casting percentage would be higher with the cheaper spell, this saving my ass more often in those matchups. I'd love to hear your thoughts on both.
Reaper is good I feel like, but just feels weird having it as another threat against midrange decks. In any case I don't really think I care and will probably just keep it in.
My thought is that stormbreath dragon is getting more popular and I may actually swap an abzan charm and a murderous cut. I know it's probably the wrong move, but it can be such a dead draw against the dragon and so many decks are capable of running it that I think it may be worth the swap. That being said, the charm is so excellent against just about anything else in standard that I would be remiss to drop the mb to 3. I think if anything I would swap a bile blight or downfall. Utter end is too good against anything.
Anyway, it's cool that we got something about the same. I look forward to your response.
I've fought against U/B control several times in 2 GPTs and I haven't lost a match to it. It's all about sequencing your threats in the correct order. They have finite counterspells and removal. Thoughtseize is a great way to gain info you need to know what to deploy. Nissas are golden against U/B. Abzan Charm's draw mode also keeps you in the game.
Overload them with threats when a Vault isn't in play. However, when a vault is in play, cast one threat and force them to crack it. The best threats in Abzan midrange in descending order are:
2 Nylea's Disciple
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Hero's Downfall
2 End Hostilities
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Liliana Vess
1 Soul of Innistrad
1 Fated Retribution
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Hornet Queen
It's basically a midrange build, but replacing caryatids with 2 drops. However when i board into my 7 drops, my hand get's clogged with them. I wanted to go to 26 lands, but no caryatid, however going up to 10 scrylands, might alleviate flooding.
So in the mainboard,
I am cutting 1 Bile Blight, 1 Urborg(sometimes is unlucky to get all 2 in my hand), for two temple of silence, and in the SB i have cut 2 nylea's disciples for 2 erase. Nylea's disciple worth has depreciated since no one plays mono colored aggro anymore, and was helpless against ascendancy combo.
Your thoughts? let me know too if you guys need my opinion.
Mistcutter is great, and also works against Savage Knuckleblade, but isn't enough against control unless you get lucky and pull a bunch of them. I suppose Liliana Vess can help increase the chances of getting multiple hydras.
With End Hostilities and duneblast, I found 1 of each to be nice, they have different uses. End hostilities is more to stop an aggressive opponent and duneblast is to break up stalemates. I've been back in the tank about this deck trying to see if I couldn't find anything that could give me more of an edge and be a little different to throw off opponents and I came up with this.
As you can see, stuff got moved around and, unfortunately Doomwake found his way out of the 75. My thoughts on this was that Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow do pretty much the same thing as I was using the Giant for which was to wipe away tokens and hornets' nests. What I really keep flip flopping on is Thoughtseize. It's incredibly powerful but Im not sure what to cut. Either Bile Blight or Utter end would have to go SB for it and I'd also need to remove either a Lion or Deathdealer for all 3. Another thought would be to drop to 3 coursers, which would open up my sideboard more for a 2nd Nissa, a Reaper of the Wilds, or a SB Thoughtseize. I'm stuck
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Does anyone have any experience facing U/B Pure Control with Abzan? I've had trouble with it at my LGS since it appeared a couple weeks ago.
My initial thought was that we could (especially with a non-Caryatid build) apply consistent pressure with threats & card advantage, but when my opponent and I compared notes after the match, we realized he actually had more answers than I had threats -- and I have 26 creatures & planeswalkers, plus 3 Thoughtseize. So, if he has more removal & counterspells than our threats, what's the plan?
I've been playing UB control for around two months now and I've yet to lose to an Abzan deck, so I do think its a pretty bad matchup for you. (Although a lot of people in this thread seem to disagree so who knows). I will say the problematic cards for me seem to be Nissa, Rakshasa Deathdealer, and Whip. I think that Perilous Vault is just really problematic for you overall because it doesn't really matter how great your threat is because vault just gets everything. I have been playing the Adrian Sullivan version with Ashiok for the record.
I think you really just want to stretch your resources. You really don't want me to get anything more than a 1-for-1 with vault. If you're playing against a non-ashiok version then just play something goofy like an elvish mystic or a courser of kruphix and just bash with it until they answer it, then cast something else. I've seen UB players take almost 10 damage off of a single elvish mystic before they realized they had to kill it.
A lot of people board out things like courser and elvish mystic against UB but I'm not sure that's right, because they are cheap threats that can really pressure resources if played right. Against an Ashiok version that plan is just going to backfire though so it depends on the build.
Initially I was playing around with the numbers on a Hornet Queen and Whip of Erebos build, but while registering the deck I didn't really feel comfortable with what I had so far, so I stuck to the traditional/stock Midrange list. Obviously it uses Pat Chapin's build as a starting point, but with the Bile Blight in the maindeck.
R1: Jeskai Wins - W 2-0: I establish early pressure G1 with Caryatid into an early Rhino, and have the Bile Blight ready for when the Mantis comes crashing in. Courser pushes me further and along with Sorin provided too much life for Jeskai to actually race my Rhino. G2 he piles on the pressure with Hordeling Outburst and Rabblemaster, but it comes a little later than it should and the tokens build into a boardstall with Elspeth, Sun's Champion. Sarkhan comes down but I have the removal ready, and eventually draw Sorin to pump the team, ending up winning via an emblem later on.
R2: U/R Ensoul Artifact - W 2-0: I fall behind early in G1 due to Phyrexian Revoker naming Sylvan Caryatid, which means no T3 Rhino. I rip off a land, though, and am able to cast Courser of Kruphix to help hit those land drops. Ensoul Artifact does some work but I buy enough time with dead Caryatids/tokens to find an answer to it, and go to town from there. He mulligans to 5 G2, and I keep a very sketchy hand. We both draw out of terrible starts, but my draw is simply much better than his (I drew all of my Utter End and Erase) and he's unable to mount any actual pressure. Wingmate Roc takes the match.
R3: Abzan Midrange - W 2-1: G1 is an attrition battle, and we exhaust each other's hands/board. My last card in hand is Ajani, though and he goes unmolested for FIVE turns to draw me enough gas (even if I whiffed once), put me at 103 life AKA out of Siege Rhino range and take the game off all those draws. I don't know if it's been said, but Prince Ajani is our version of Dig Through Time. G2 double Thoughtseize puts me waaay behind and he eventually wins. I start playing very fast with <10 minutes on the clock. Fortunately, nothing went too badly and I'm able to exhaust his hand while I have one card in hand - Elspeth. 'Speth goes to town and I win on turn 5 of extra turns, courtesy of 28 flying damage from 6 soldier tokens + Wingmate Roc and buddy.
R4: UW Heroic - W 2-1: Ugh, not too happy to be playing this. I take Game 1 by successfully racing his 10/10 voltron'd Hero of Iroas with 2 Siege Rhino triggers and a +1 from Sorin. He spends a turn killing the Sorin, which gives me the opening I need to move ahead in the race and cast Wingmate Roc. He looks for a way to kill me by piling up the cantrips on the Hero, but he finds nothing good. Apparently you can race them! Game 2 develops into a board stall and I'm able to stabilize at 2 measly life, ready to win the next turn. Unfortunately, he draws the 1 (of 5) card that would win him the game - Heliod's Pilgrim into Aqueous Form. Damn. I keep a slow hand in G3, very risky, but he mulligans to 6. I rip Caryatid off the top of my deck which gives me the T3 Rhino, and he plays a 1/1 Eidolon (not a good sign). I Thoughtseize and see what's up - loads of spells, but no creatue. I Downfall the Eidolon to strand his Gods Willing and Cantrips, and he falls to far behind from Rhino beatdown.
R5: UW Heroic (again?!) - W 2-0: I stabilize in G1, eventually drawing out all his protection. With no cards in hand, I stabilize with Elspeth + Sorin. He keeps a sketchy hand in G2 and has no third land. He's forced to put Battlewise Hoplite without a way to protect it, which I immediately take out. Courser and Rhino win the game.
I draw R6 and R7 into Top 8, eventually landing into 4th as the highest X-0-2. My opponents from R5-7 all made Top 8. I win my Top 8 match (another mirror, at this point I was too tired to take any notes).
Semifinals: Mardu Midrange - L 1-2: Finally, I face this deck. I take a huge Game 1 on the draw because his black source is a turn late to race me. I get run over in G2, unable to deal with a 2nd Rabblemaster + Hordeling tokens. In G3 I keep a hand with Thoughtseize into Courser, taking Hordeling Outburst. He has Rabblemaster, which I'm prepared for with removal. Courser gets exiled, and I play a Sorin. He deals with both Sorin and Vampire, draws another Outburst, and goes to town with Butcher joining in. Sarkhan joins right next turn, but I'm ready with the Utter End + Murderous Cut line and stabilize the board. I cast Elspeth, but it meets Utter end after -3'ing to deal with another Butcher. I play Courser and pass. Land on top. Fetch, shuffle, another land. Draw my card... another land. He topdecks Sarkhan, spends one turn killing my Courser, and just goes to town with the 4/4 flyer.
I'm pretty happy overall with this performance, even with the Top 4 loss. There are a lot of decision points with the deck - Walker abilities, Abzan Charm, TSeize, etc. - and I'm pretty comfortable with how I make decisions with Abzan.
That said, I feel like I still need to improve my playing against Mardu Midrange. I don't think I have a good record against it. Do you guys have any suggestions? Someone suggested that I take out Wingmate Roc (low chance to trigger Raid, matches up poorly against their Stormbreaths and Sarkhans). How should I be boarding againt them?
X-0-2 in Swiss at a 100+-person GPT, falling in the Top 4 (noooo those byes) with a very no-nonsense decklist:
That said, I feel like I still need to improve my playing against Mardu Midrange. I don't think I have a good record against it. Do you guys have any suggestions? Someone suggested that I take out Wingmate Roc (low chance to trigger Raid, matches up poorly against their Stormbreaths and Sarkhans). How should I be boarding againt them?
Here's how I would SB against mardu with your list:
-3 Thoughtseize: They empty their hand too quickly for these to be a decent topdeck late game
-2 Wingmate Roc: Super hard to trigger raid against them, as they also have a ton of removal
-1 Read the bones: Not worth the lifeloss,considering they're trying to be so aggressive
+2 Drown in sorrow
+2 End Hostilities
+2 Nissa, Worldwaker: It's seriously funny watching them deal with a 4/4 every turn.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
I'm curious to hear everyone's thoughts on 2 drops besides Caryatid at this time. Right now I'm not playing any(as I switched my 2 Fleecemane Lion's for Reaper of the Wilds'), but I think 2 drops are an a potentially important part of the Abzan plan and deserve some spotlight/conversation.
From my perspective, these are the strongest options:
Fleecemane Lion: Strong value right away being above the curve, and extremely brutal late game with a mana investment. Once monstrous, it's hard for any deck to remove, specifically if you're playing around Crackling Doom.
Rakshasa Deathdealer: Worse than Fleecemane without paying additional mana, but it allows for more plays in the middle of the game; removing something on turn 5-6 while still keeping mana up to protect it. I loved Lotleth Troll last standard, but I'm not a fan of Deathdealer myself; I prefer Lion's stronger value for the same cost and (in my experience) more relevant mana dump later.
Heir of the Wilds: Able to trade with almost anything played in standard on the ground and constantly get damage through. Triggering Ferocious isn't hard, with Rhino's + additional options around (Reaper/Polukranos, Brimaz + Sorin, ect.), and with it he's a complete beast. Unlike the other options he has no protection and can't get huge, but for 2 mana play and forget he's arguably the best value.
I personally prefer Lion as he's never a bad card and is extremely reliable/consistent. That said, I've played with him last standard and am used to him being good; it's possible I'm biased. Heir seems really good to me in general as well, and I like how he's good in the mirror match on offense or defense. My favorite thing about Deathdealer is that he can lead to an "Oops, I win" situation where both players are in top-deck mode, you drop him, the opponent fails to remove him (you regenerate him or they just don't have the card), and you attack for 8+ next turn, securing lethal.
Having a strong 2 drop really helps against control, because you can push their resources sooner and get a clock on them. Lion and Deathdealer are hard to kill and UB or UW control can take some serious damage from them. In the mirror I find the 2 drops pretty decent. Monstrous Lion has won me a few mirror's, and I've had to take time to remove Deathdealer instead of playing a Courser or something before. Against aggro these cards don't seem great but OK; Boss Sligh has so much unblockable they often are only a speed-bump (although still relevant), and UW heroic can get their guys larger than these fast, or give them protection. As for other matches like Mardu Midrange, Jeskai Tempo, and Temur midrange/tempo, I like having these early plays to stem bleeding/keep pressure even on both sides, as we typically win the late-game in these matches.
What are everyone's thoughts and experiences with 2 drops? What matches are these guys best/worst in? When do you side them out and when do you wish you had more? Any alternative options that I didn't mention that you think work best?
Rakshasha is bad early game, great late game. His benefit is having mana to pump him, and keep him around.. which means if you drop him early, you're hurting yourself by keeping mana up for those purposes. It's fine if the opponent isn't putting anything on the board, but what if they keep dropping creatures? You then tap out for a Rhino, and then tap out for a Roc, and for all that time Rakshasa is just a bear.
Heir of the Wilds is meh over the course of the game. His benefit is that he can get rid of any ground based creature.. on turn 2. If you're not running 4 Hero's Downfalls then the first thing you should do before Heir of the Wilds is run 4 Hero's Downfalls. Then I'd say more Murderous Cuts or Utter Ends. Though, yes, you're removing the turn 2 aspect. I do like his synergy with Ajani, Mentor of Heroes but that's a turn 5 play. I also do like his ability to prevent attacks because the opponent has multiple creatures they don't want to lose.
Unfortunately, as I see it, and mulled over it, there's no 2 drop that really shines for us. People win with everything, but people also lose with everything. Maybe we should just play 1 of each?
what about gods willing in the sideboard against u/b control?
That's just one less threat in your deck, and a card that requires you to actually have resolved a threat in order to make it work.
In the last few weeks I was getting owned by U/B control, so I went back to the drawing board. I made some minor changes to my SB and haven't seen enough situations with them to evaluate yet. I did, however, change my overall strategy and went 4-0 in games last night. Here's what worked for me:
1) Turn two Rakshasa Deathdealer was amazing. If it lives until your next untap (and they don't have much early removal), ALWAYS keep regen mana open, and force them to deal with it while you build up your hand.
2) Abzan Charm is amazing in this matchup: EOT you draw two cards or they tap mana to counterspell, opening a window for your next turn.
3) Nissa, Whip, and Sorin all create card advantage, and the latter can also use his ultimate to shut down their win cons.
4) Late in the game, Deathdealer, Reaper of the Wilds, and Fleecemane Lion are very hard for them to deal with, IF you can get around counterspells.
5) My newest experiment (the one that hasn't seen results yet) is Soul of Innistrad. Most of U/B's counterspells and removal would have virtually no bearing on the restock ability, which creates huge card advantage. Dissipate, Silence the Believers, Vault, and Ashiok all get in the way, but only the latter two are commonly played, and for the most part we can work around all of them.
The only spells I run vs this opponent are Thoughtseize, Abzan Charm, Hero's Downfall, and Utter End (the latter two are mostly for Ashiok). Except for the 25 lands, every other card can do damage or make something that does, and almost all of them create some form of card advantage.
I know it's been a while since I posted in this thread, but I've had money issues keeping me from playing. Still got to do FNM last night and went 3-1. Here's my list:
****IMPORTANT NOTE**** Jungle Hollow was NOT a budget replacement for Temple of Malady. It was a metagame call based on the fact that I saw jeskai burn mirrors all over the store before the event started. I would not recommend this unless your meta is very heavily tilted towards burn decks and you just need those 1-2 extra points of life.
Round 1: vs UR Control -- WIN 2-0
The first game was mostly me playing a turn 3 Courser that he can't disdainful stroke and him not drawing any possible way to answer it. (including a riddle of lightning that scryed three lands, then hit a 4th land on the flip) Game two I land a thoughtseize turn 1 and rip out his Keranos. (having not brought in additional enchantment removal) The game bogs down, he eventually casts dig through time, keeping three lands up to do so. However, he's sloppy when he checks the top 7 and lets me know he has no counterspell to put into his hand. I cast stain the mind naming Keranos and he scoops.
SB: -2 Bile Blight, -1 Elspeth, -2 Downfall || +1 Stain the Mind, +1 Anafenza, +1 Whip, +2 Despise (should have been 2 Erase)
Round 2: vs Jeskai Heroic Combo -- WIN 2-0
Game one he gets off to a quick start with triple monastary swiftspear turn two. Bile blight takes care of that mess as Courser starts to pad my life total. Eventually I cast 3 Siege Rhinos and win with that (hint: jeskai charm's "put on top of the deck" ability is not the one you want to target siege rhino with.)
Game 2 I manage to keep his field mostly clean with drown in sorrow and bile blight. I risk tapping out to blindly call Jeskai Ascendancy for Stain the Mind (I hadn't seen the card itself, but I did see a retraction helix on a prior thoughtseize) and catch one on top of his deck, along with the other three. Having as much burn as he does, it was still a very close game before jungle hollow with two coursers put me out of charm/lighting strike range, allowing me to swing safely for lethal.
SB: -4 Downfall -1 Cut -2 Elspeth -2 Mystic || +2 Banishing Light, +3 Drown in Sorrow, +1 Stain the Mind, +1 Utter End, +2 Erase
Round 3: vs Jeskai Deck Wins -- LOSS 1-2
My game 1 turn 1 thoughtseize reveals mountain, plains, banishing light, seeker of the way, magma jet, lightning strike, and monastary swiftspear. I take the seeker and he curves into a second, with burn turning on prowess and finishing the game before I could get my slow hand working.
Game 2 I thoughtseize him again, see island, battlefield forge, flooded strand, mantis rider, seeker, magma jet and lightning strike. I have a bile blight in hand so I take seeker and kill the mantis rider when it comes down. He ends up drawing almost nothing but pain lands, and that gives me just enough to punch through with a 5/6 trampling seige rhino.
Game three he draws a *****ton of burn and a bunch of creatures that almost never get to attack. He drew all four copies of stoke the flames and ended up leaving me at 2, but his board is empty and I have a seige rhino on top plus two hexproof blockers (one of which doesn't die to anger of the gods) but he topdecks the lightning strike to seal it.
SB: -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Elspeth, -1 Murderous Cut, -2 Wingmate Roc || +2 Despise, +3 Drown in Sorrow, +2 Banishing Light, +1 Whip of Erebos
Round 4 vs. Jeskai Heroic Combo -- WIN 2-0
Game 1 I have a relatively slow curve out but my blockers wall off his weenies as he continues to look for a third land. Eventually he gets 4 creatures and taps them (along with his two lands) for Obelisk of Urd naming Human, making 4/4 valley dashers, 3/4 swiftspears, and 4/4 seekers of the way. Through some smart manipulation of prowess triggers and kill spells I manage to constantly kill his dudes until he runs out of gas.
Game 2 I see an early deflecting palm but leave it in and take the ascendancy he opened with. He draws a second and casts it, giving me the chance to resolve a siege rhino on an otherwise empty board. From there he digs for a creature and can't find one before I kill him.
SB: -2 Elspeth, -2 Downfall, -2 Bile Blight, -2 Elvish Mystic || +2 Drown in Sorrow, +2 Erase, +2 Banishing Light, +1 Utter End, +1 Stain the Mind
This meta is not the one I'll be playing at very often, so I'm not going to consider cutting elspeth for being too slow - she's just not great against really fast aggro decks that go wider than Abzan can (and we can go pretty wide, especially on defense)
I also ran into a Nemesis Wave player and helped test his deck - you want to remove all your walkers and wingmate rocs for that matchup, because even wealth for 6 usually wins the game. I've been keen on the card for a while, and I think it's something people will have to at least keep in mind.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
The idea would be to board out caryatid for GW, so no threat loss. I also don't quite understand your logic regarding having to resolve a threat to get use out of GW. If we don't resolve threats in the game is over anyway.Not using a card because it depends on our resolving threats is pretty defeatist.
Maybe, but naturalize is instant speed and I think we need that with jeskai ascendancy in the meta. plus is rather use main phase mana to play a more significant threat than RS.
Hey, I've been seeing 2 Nissas in a lot of sideboards. What do people bring it in against? What do people cut for it? While the card seems solid against control strategies, I'm unsure of which matchups it improves enough to justify 2 SB slots. It seems marginal vs. Bx devotion/enchantments or the mirror.
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YMTC: We need a spikey red enchantment. My creations:
RR
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
-or-
R
Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
The idea would be to board out caryatid for GW, so no threat loss. I also don't quite understand your logic regarding having to resolve a threat to get use out of GW. If we don't resolve threats in the game is over anyway.Not using a card because it depends on our resolving threats is pretty defeatist.
You just said it yourself: if we don't resolve threats the game is over. A typical U/B control deck has as many "answers" (i.e. counterspells and removal) as we have threats. Gods Willing "answers" their removal, and that's fine, but it doesn't challenge their counterspells -- or Perilous Vault, or Ætherspouts -- while a creature or PW does. That means that, yes, if you play an early creature with W open and the opponent is relying on early removal w/ no counterspells (or you played it before they had counter mana), your creature will last until a Spouts, Vault, or a response (probably Murderous Cut or Negate) to your GW.
You might also think of it this way: if you're in topdeck mode and the control player is, too, would you rather rip a Gods Willing or, say, Nissa or Reaper of the Wilds?
This isn't a defeatist mentality, it's a strategy based on numbers and specific card matchups.
2 nissas are for the control matchup. One usally boards out Heros Downfall for it. Ive heard the nissas are good vs mardu midrange
Wouldn't we want to keep in Downfall to answer Ashiok? I initially boarded out all removal vs control, but Ashiok kept giving my opponents easy wins. I'd rather board out Wingmate Roc, which is a five-mana investment for a creature with two abilities that are probably irrelevant in this matchup (you're unlikely to trigger raid unless the opponent has a plan).
I haven't played in almost a month, but I'm going to play a FNM-level event on Wednesday night (although I should mention that my LGS has numerous PTQ-winners and the competition there is absurdly high as a result even for FNM). I'm expecting to do worse than normal because of being so out of practice, but I also feel that taking the break has given me a fresh look at my deck and where it might not have been working so great. After some adjustments, this is what I am looking to play. It's shifted a bit in favor of taking on Mono-red Aggro, because that deck gave me a lot of trouble before and it seemed fairly popular at my LGS.
Hey, so my 75
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Fleecemane lion
2 rakshasha deathdealer
4 courser of kruphix
4 siege rhino
2 Wingmate roc
2 doomwake giant
Planeswalkers 5
1 Sorin, solemn visitor
2 Ajani, mentor of heroes
2 elspeth, sun's champion
4 abzan charm
3 hero's downfall
2 utter end
1 bile blight
1 whip of erebos
Land 24
24 standard build
4 thoughtseize
1 murderous cut
2 drown in sorrow
2 bile blight
1 reaper of the wild
1 erase
1 anafenza, the foremost
1 pharika, god of affliction
1 hornet queen
1 end hostilities
is almost identical to yours. Did you arrive at this list independently? There are a couple differences in mb decisions (mainly the seizes), but I think overall we have very similar decks. How has liliana worked? I know she won you that game with tutoring rhinos and i did like it when i had it mb in other builds. Any comments on my build? I'm going to GP San Antonio and i'm trying to tweak my build a bit for the metagame. Currently, I'm thinking about moving murderous cut to mb instead of bile blight, since I have the 2 doom giants mb for token sweep and cut is just great, efficient removal that can help in the bigger matchups like Mardu and Temur, which seems like where the meta is going. Lots of talk about Reaper of the Wilds, but I just don't see it being better than other options. That and Anafenza are both my questionable cards. Might also go with Duneblast instead of end hositilities, but at the same time, 2 mana is a big difference. I'm also not absolutely sure I need both Doom giants in the main, though i'm ok with both somewhere in the 75. Great synergy with Pharika and she's also good against random reanimator shenanigans. I also am wondering about Brimaz. Some decks run him against aggro, but I've never been convinced. Would love to bounce some ideas off you since yyour deck is so similar.
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G
My initial thought was that we could (especially with a non-Caryatid build) apply consistent pressure with threats & card advantage, but when my opponent and I compared notes after the match, we realized he actually had more answers than I had threats -- and I have 26 creatures & planeswalkers, plus 3 Thoughtseize. So, if he has more removal & counterspells than our threats, what's the plan?
I'm thinking of running 4 Mistcutter Hydra in the side. Boarding Reaper of the Wilds and Rakshasa Deathdealer (already 2 each in the main) also seems good. And how about Soul of Innistrad to gain significant card advantage, even if it's countered? (Or is that just the same as Whip?)
I am also a big proponent of doom giants though. I don't think I would ever mb nissa. Personally I don't see her appeal. I understand a 4/4 every turn is straight ca, but there are so many answers to that right now. That said, she's also incredibly powerful. My reason for not including her is because I mb whip and that I feel is a great card against control. Nissa is usually played sb against u/b control variants with vault. I just don't think my matchup needs her but if I did do anything I would cut a seize.
Which leads to thoughtseize. I actually think I'm making some huge mistake by not playing 4 md as it's so incredibly powerful. I've never felt like anything I drew in my deck would have been better as a seize. I just think it can be a dead draw against the many midrange decks out there that I have kept it in the board. The thing is that it is an absolute beast against control, combo and Aggro that it I couldn't see playing less than all four. I just think our matchup is not terribly worse game 1 against those decks compared to how poorly they perform when you need that crucial top deck. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on them. Which oddly leads to the deathdealers.
An early at like the cats can be very good against Aggro. And having a threat out has been great in all matchups. In my experience, I can honestly say deathdealer has absolutely over performed. I've actually thought abut going 3/1 death/fleece. I just don't think fleece is that good. I just love everything about the dealer. It's just so versatile, whereas the fleece is a lot of the times a 3/3 for 2 that eats removal. Granted, it can take over a game, so that's why I've (and prolly will) stick with the 2/2 split, but dealer's pump can do it faster and still protect itself from a lot of removal. It's also synergies well with sweepers. Which leads to.
I am really torn between hostilities and duneblast lately. I will only run one, but I can't decide what. I like that hostilities is cheap so I could keep a dealer around, but for the same price I could keep any creature around. Then again, I feel like my casting percentage would be higher with the cheaper spell, this saving my ass more often in those matchups. I'd love to hear your thoughts on both.
Reaper is good I feel like, but just feels weird having it as another threat against midrange decks. In any case I don't really think I care and will probably just keep it in.
My thought is that stormbreath dragon is getting more popular and I may actually swap an abzan charm and a murderous cut. I know it's probably the wrong move, but it can be such a dead draw against the dragon and so many decks are capable of running it that I think it may be worth the swap. That being said, the charm is so excellent against just about anything else in standard that I would be remiss to drop the mb to 3. I think if anything I would swap a bile blight or downfall. Utter end is too good against anything.
Anyway, it's cool that we got something about the same. I look forward to your response.
To come soon: card tabs and new decklist
Overload them with threats when a Vault isn't in play. However, when a vault is in play, cast one threat and force them to crack it. The best threats in Abzan midrange in descending order are:
1) Nissa
2) Wingmate Roc
3) Sorin
4) Rhino and Ajani
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Malady
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Fleecemane Lion
2 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
4 Abzan Charm
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Utter End
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
SB
2 Nylea's Disciple
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Hero's Downfall
2 End Hostilities
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Liliana Vess
1 Soul of Innistrad
1 Fated Retribution
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Hornet Queen
It's basically a midrange build, but replacing caryatids with 2 drops. However when i board into my 7 drops, my hand get's clogged with them. I wanted to go to 26 lands, but no caryatid, however going up to 10 scrylands, might alleviate flooding.
So in the mainboard,
I am cutting 1 Bile Blight, 1 Urborg(sometimes is unlucky to get all 2 in my hand), for two temple of silence, and in the SB i have cut 2 nylea's disciples for 2 erase. Nylea's disciple worth has depreciated since no one plays mono colored aggro anymore, and was helpless against ascendancy combo.
Your thoughts? let me know too if you guys need my opinion.
2x Caves of Koilos
3x Forest
3x Llanowar Wastes
3x Plains
4x Sandsteppe Citadel
2x Temple of Malady
2x Temple of Silence
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Windswept Heath
Planeswalker (5)
2x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4x Courser of Kruphix
2x Fleecemane Lion
1x Hornet Queen
2x Rakshasa Deathdealer
4x Siege Rhino
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Wingmate Roc
Instant (11)
4x Abzan Charm
2x Bile Blight
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Utter End
Artifact (1)
1x Whip of Erebos
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
2x Drown in Sorrow
1x Duneblast
1x End Hostilities
2x Erase
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
1x Liliana Vess
2x Murderous Cut
1x Nissa, Worldwaker
3x Thoughtseize
As you can see, stuff got moved around and, unfortunately Doomwake found his way out of the 75. My thoughts on this was that Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow do pretty much the same thing as I was using the Giant for which was to wipe away tokens and hornets' nests. What I really keep flip flopping on is Thoughtseize. It's incredibly powerful but Im not sure what to cut. Either Bile Blight or Utter end would have to go SB for it and I'd also need to remove either a Lion or Deathdealer for all 3. Another thought would be to drop to 3 coursers, which would open up my sideboard more for a 2nd Nissa, a Reaper of the Wilds, or a SB Thoughtseize. I'm stuck
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G
I've been playing UB control for around two months now and I've yet to lose to an Abzan deck, so I do think its a pretty bad matchup for you. (Although a lot of people in this thread seem to disagree so who knows). I will say the problematic cards for me seem to be Nissa, Rakshasa Deathdealer, and Whip. I think that Perilous Vault is just really problematic for you overall because it doesn't really matter how great your threat is because vault just gets everything. I have been playing the Adrian Sullivan version with Ashiok for the record.
I think you really just want to stretch your resources. You really don't want me to get anything more than a 1-for-1 with vault. If you're playing against a non-ashiok version then just play something goofy like an elvish mystic or a courser of kruphix and just bash with it until they answer it, then cast something else. I've seen UB players take almost 10 damage off of a single elvish mystic before they realized they had to kill it.
A lot of people board out things like courser and elvish mystic against UB but I'm not sure that's right, because they are cheap threats that can really pressure resources if played right. Against an Ashiok version that plan is just going to backfire though so it depends on the build.
Standard: UB control.
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
4 Abzan Charm
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Read the Bones
2 Utter End
4 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Silence
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Erase
1 Thoughtseize
1 Bile Blight
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Read the Bones
2 End Hostilities
1 Liliana Vess
2 Murderous Cut
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Duneblast
Initially I was playing around with the numbers on a Hornet Queen and Whip of Erebos build, but while registering the deck I didn't really feel comfortable with what I had so far, so I stuck to the traditional/stock Midrange list. Obviously it uses Pat Chapin's build as a starting point, but with the Bile Blight in the maindeck.
R1: Jeskai Wins - W 2-0: I establish early pressure G1 with Caryatid into an early Rhino, and have the Bile Blight ready for when the Mantis comes crashing in. Courser pushes me further and along with Sorin provided too much life for Jeskai to actually race my Rhino. G2 he piles on the pressure with Hordeling Outburst and Rabblemaster, but it comes a little later than it should and the tokens build into a boardstall with Elspeth, Sun's Champion. Sarkhan comes down but I have the removal ready, and eventually draw Sorin to pump the team, ending up winning via an emblem later on.
R2: U/R Ensoul Artifact - W 2-0: I fall behind early in G1 due to Phyrexian Revoker naming Sylvan Caryatid, which means no T3 Rhino. I rip off a land, though, and am able to cast Courser of Kruphix to help hit those land drops. Ensoul Artifact does some work but I buy enough time with dead Caryatids/tokens to find an answer to it, and go to town from there. He mulligans to 5 G2, and I keep a very sketchy hand. We both draw out of terrible starts, but my draw is simply much better than his (I drew all of my Utter End and Erase) and he's unable to mount any actual pressure. Wingmate Roc takes the match.
R3: Abzan Midrange - W 2-1: G1 is an attrition battle, and we exhaust each other's hands/board. My last card in hand is Ajani, though and he goes unmolested for FIVE turns to draw me enough gas (even if I whiffed once), put me at 103 life AKA out of Siege Rhino range and take the game off all those draws. I don't know if it's been said, but Prince Ajani is our version of Dig Through Time. G2 double Thoughtseize puts me waaay behind and he eventually wins. I start playing very fast with <10 minutes on the clock. Fortunately, nothing went too badly and I'm able to exhaust his hand while I have one card in hand - Elspeth. 'Speth goes to town and I win on turn 5 of extra turns, courtesy of 28 flying damage from 6 soldier tokens + Wingmate Roc and buddy.
R4: UW Heroic - W 2-1: Ugh, not too happy to be playing this. I take Game 1 by successfully racing his 10/10 voltron'd Hero of Iroas with 2 Siege Rhino triggers and a +1 from Sorin. He spends a turn killing the Sorin, which gives me the opening I need to move ahead in the race and cast Wingmate Roc. He looks for a way to kill me by piling up the cantrips on the Hero, but he finds nothing good. Apparently you can race them! Game 2 develops into a board stall and I'm able to stabilize at 2 measly life, ready to win the next turn. Unfortunately, he draws the 1 (of 5) card that would win him the game - Heliod's Pilgrim into Aqueous Form. Damn. I keep a slow hand in G3, very risky, but he mulligans to 6. I rip Caryatid off the top of my deck which gives me the T3 Rhino, and he plays a 1/1 Eidolon (not a good sign). I Thoughtseize and see what's up - loads of spells, but no creatue. I Downfall the Eidolon to strand his Gods Willing and Cantrips, and he falls to far behind from Rhino beatdown.
R5: UW Heroic (again?!) - W 2-0: I stabilize in G1, eventually drawing out all his protection. With no cards in hand, I stabilize with Elspeth + Sorin. He keeps a sketchy hand in G2 and has no third land. He's forced to put Battlewise Hoplite without a way to protect it, which I immediately take out. Courser and Rhino win the game.
I draw R6 and R7 into Top 8, eventually landing into 4th as the highest X-0-2. My opponents from R5-7 all made Top 8. I win my Top 8 match (another mirror, at this point I was too tired to take any notes).
Semifinals: Mardu Midrange - L 1-2: Finally, I face this deck. I take a huge Game 1 on the draw because his black source is a turn late to race me. I get run over in G2, unable to deal with a 2nd Rabblemaster + Hordeling tokens. In G3 I keep a hand with Thoughtseize into Courser, taking Hordeling Outburst. He has Rabblemaster, which I'm prepared for with removal. Courser gets exiled, and I play a Sorin. He deals with both Sorin and Vampire, draws another Outburst, and goes to town with Butcher joining in. Sarkhan joins right next turn, but I'm ready with the Utter End + Murderous Cut line and stabilize the board. I cast Elspeth, but it meets Utter end after -3'ing to deal with another Butcher. I play Courser and pass. Land on top. Fetch, shuffle, another land. Draw my card... another land. He topdecks Sarkhan, spends one turn killing my Courser, and just goes to town with the 4/4 flyer.
I'm pretty happy overall with this performance, even with the Top 4 loss. There are a lot of decision points with the deck - Walker abilities, Abzan Charm, TSeize, etc. - and I'm pretty comfortable with how I make decisions with Abzan.
That said, I feel like I still need to improve my playing against Mardu Midrange. I don't think I have a good record against it. Do you guys have any suggestions? Someone suggested that I take out Wingmate Roc (low chance to trigger Raid, matches up poorly against their Stormbreaths and Sarkhans). How should I be boarding againt them?
Here's how I would SB against mardu with your list:
-3 Thoughtseize: They empty their hand too quickly for these to be a decent topdeck late game
-2 Wingmate Roc: Super hard to trigger raid against them, as they also have a ton of removal
-1 Read the bones: Not worth the lifeloss,considering they're trying to be so aggressive
+2 Drown in sorrow
+2 End Hostilities
+2 Nissa, Worldwaker: It's seriously funny watching them deal with a 4/4 every turn.
URURxUR
UWUWxUW
From my perspective, these are the strongest options:
Fleecemane Lion: Strong value right away being above the curve, and extremely brutal late game with a mana investment. Once monstrous, it's hard for any deck to remove, specifically if you're playing around Crackling Doom.
Rakshasa Deathdealer: Worse than Fleecemane without paying additional mana, but it allows for more plays in the middle of the game; removing something on turn 5-6 while still keeping mana up to protect it. I loved Lotleth Troll last standard, but I'm not a fan of Deathdealer myself; I prefer Lion's stronger value for the same cost and (in my experience) more relevant mana dump later.
Heir of the Wilds: Able to trade with almost anything played in standard on the ground and constantly get damage through. Triggering Ferocious isn't hard, with Rhino's + additional options around (Reaper/Polukranos, Brimaz + Sorin, ect.), and with it he's a complete beast. Unlike the other options he has no protection and can't get huge, but for 2 mana play and forget he's arguably the best value.
I personally prefer Lion as he's never a bad card and is extremely reliable/consistent. That said, I've played with him last standard and am used to him being good; it's possible I'm biased. Heir seems really good to me in general as well, and I like how he's good in the mirror match on offense or defense. My favorite thing about Deathdealer is that he can lead to an "Oops, I win" situation where both players are in top-deck mode, you drop him, the opponent fails to remove him (you regenerate him or they just don't have the card), and you attack for 8+ next turn, securing lethal.
Having a strong 2 drop really helps against control, because you can push their resources sooner and get a clock on them. Lion and Deathdealer are hard to kill and UB or UW control can take some serious damage from them. In the mirror I find the 2 drops pretty decent. Monstrous Lion has won me a few mirror's, and I've had to take time to remove Deathdealer instead of playing a Courser or something before. Against aggro these cards don't seem great but OK; Boss Sligh has so much unblockable they often are only a speed-bump (although still relevant), and UW heroic can get their guys larger than these fast, or give them protection. As for other matches like Mardu Midrange, Jeskai Tempo, and Temur midrange/tempo, I like having these early plays to stem bleeding/keep pressure even on both sides, as we typically win the late-game in these matches.
What are everyone's thoughts and experiences with 2 drops? What matches are these guys best/worst in? When do you side them out and when do you wish you had more? Any alternative options that I didn't mention that you think work best?
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
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Rakshasha is bad early game, great late game. His benefit is having mana to pump him, and keep him around.. which means if you drop him early, you're hurting yourself by keeping mana up for those purposes. It's fine if the opponent isn't putting anything on the board, but what if they keep dropping creatures? You then tap out for a Rhino, and then tap out for a Roc, and for all that time Rakshasa is just a bear.
Heir of the Wilds is meh over the course of the game. His benefit is that he can get rid of any ground based creature.. on turn 2. If you're not running 4 Hero's Downfalls then the first thing you should do before Heir of the Wilds is run 4 Hero's Downfalls. Then I'd say more Murderous Cuts or Utter Ends. Though, yes, you're removing the turn 2 aspect. I do like his synergy with Ajani, Mentor of Heroes but that's a turn 5 play. I also do like his ability to prevent attacks because the opponent has multiple creatures they don't want to lose.
Really just depends on your play style I think.
Another card to think about is Mistcutter Hydra. I think against any deck running Disdainful Stroke and Savage Knuckleblade he's the go to 2 drop.
Unfortunately, as I see it, and mulled over it, there's no 2 drop that really shines for us. People win with everything, but people also lose with everything. Maybe we should just play 1 of each?
Happy Thanksgiving by the way
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Doesn't deal with their best card against you which is vault but it might be worth testing, especially if you're playing a more aggressive version.
Standard: UB control.
That's just one less threat in your deck, and a card that requires you to actually have resolved a threat in order to make it work.
In the last few weeks I was getting owned by U/B control, so I went back to the drawing board. I made some minor changes to my SB and haven't seen enough situations with them to evaluate yet. I did, however, change my overall strategy and went 4-0 in games last night. Here's what worked for me:
1) Turn two Rakshasa Deathdealer was amazing. If it lives until your next untap (and they don't have much early removal), ALWAYS keep regen mana open, and force them to deal with it while you build up your hand.
2) Abzan Charm is amazing in this matchup: EOT you draw two cards or they tap mana to counterspell, opening a window for your next turn.
3) Nissa, Whip, and Sorin all create card advantage, and the latter can also use his ultimate to shut down their win cons.
4) Late in the game, Deathdealer, Reaper of the Wilds, and Fleecemane Lion are very hard for them to deal with, IF you can get around counterspells.
5) My newest experiment (the one that hasn't seen results yet) is Soul of Innistrad. Most of U/B's counterspells and removal would have virtually no bearing on the restock ability, which creates huge card advantage. Dissipate, Silence the Believers, Vault, and Ashiok all get in the way, but only the latter two are commonly played, and for the most part we can work around all of them.
The only spells I run vs this opponent are Thoughtseize, Abzan Charm, Hero's Downfall, and Utter End (the latter two are mostly for Ashiok). Except for the 25 lands, every other card can do damage or make something that does, and almost all of them create some form of card advantage.
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Llanowar Wastes
2 Caves of Koilos
1 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Plenty
2 Jungle Hollow (*)
4 Windswept Heath
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Forest
2 Plains
Creatures (17)
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Seige Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
3 Abzan Charm
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Utter End
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Murderous Cut
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Drown in Sorrow
3 Erase
3 Banishing Light
2 Despise
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Stain the Mind
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Utter End
****IMPORTANT NOTE**** Jungle Hollow was NOT a budget replacement for Temple of Malady. It was a metagame call based on the fact that I saw jeskai burn mirrors all over the store before the event started. I would not recommend this unless your meta is very heavily tilted towards burn decks and you just need those 1-2 extra points of life.
Round 1: vs UR Control -- WIN 2-0
The first game was mostly me playing a turn 3 Courser that he can't disdainful stroke and him not drawing any possible way to answer it. (including a riddle of lightning that scryed three lands, then hit a 4th land on the flip) Game two I land a thoughtseize turn 1 and rip out his Keranos. (having not brought in additional enchantment removal) The game bogs down, he eventually casts dig through time, keeping three lands up to do so. However, he's sloppy when he checks the top 7 and lets me know he has no counterspell to put into his hand. I cast stain the mind naming Keranos and he scoops.
SB: -2 Bile Blight, -1 Elspeth, -2 Downfall || +1 Stain the Mind, +1 Anafenza, +1 Whip, +2 Despise (should have been 2 Erase)
Round 2: vs Jeskai Heroic Combo -- WIN 2-0
Game one he gets off to a quick start with triple monastary swiftspear turn two. Bile blight takes care of that mess as Courser starts to pad my life total. Eventually I cast 3 Siege Rhinos and win with that (hint: jeskai charm's "put on top of the deck" ability is not the one you want to target siege rhino with.)
Game 2 I manage to keep his field mostly clean with drown in sorrow and bile blight. I risk tapping out to blindly call Jeskai Ascendancy for Stain the Mind (I hadn't seen the card itself, but I did see a retraction helix on a prior thoughtseize) and catch one on top of his deck, along with the other three. Having as much burn as he does, it was still a very close game before jungle hollow with two coursers put me out of charm/lighting strike range, allowing me to swing safely for lethal.
SB: -4 Downfall -1 Cut -2 Elspeth -2 Mystic || +2 Banishing Light, +3 Drown in Sorrow, +1 Stain the Mind, +1 Utter End, +2 Erase
Round 3: vs Jeskai Deck Wins -- LOSS 1-2
My game 1 turn 1 thoughtseize reveals mountain, plains, banishing light, seeker of the way, magma jet, lightning strike, and monastary swiftspear. I take the seeker and he curves into a second, with burn turning on prowess and finishing the game before I could get my slow hand working.
Game 2 I thoughtseize him again, see island, battlefield forge, flooded strand, mantis rider, seeker, magma jet and lightning strike. I have a bile blight in hand so I take seeker and kill the mantis rider when it comes down. He ends up drawing almost nothing but pain lands, and that gives me just enough to punch through with a 5/6 trampling seige rhino.
Game three he draws a *****ton of burn and a bunch of creatures that almost never get to attack. He drew all four copies of stoke the flames and ended up leaving me at 2, but his board is empty and I have a seige rhino on top plus two hexproof blockers (one of which doesn't die to anger of the gods) but he topdecks the lightning strike to seal it.
SB: -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Elspeth, -1 Murderous Cut, -2 Wingmate Roc || +2 Despise, +3 Drown in Sorrow, +2 Banishing Light, +1 Whip of Erebos
Round 4 vs. Jeskai Heroic Combo -- WIN 2-0
Game 1 I have a relatively slow curve out but my blockers wall off his weenies as he continues to look for a third land. Eventually he gets 4 creatures and taps them (along with his two lands) for Obelisk of Urd naming Human, making 4/4 valley dashers, 3/4 swiftspears, and 4/4 seekers of the way. Through some smart manipulation of prowess triggers and kill spells I manage to constantly kill his dudes until he runs out of gas.
Game 2 I see an early deflecting palm but leave it in and take the ascendancy he opened with. He draws a second and casts it, giving me the chance to resolve a siege rhino on an otherwise empty board. From there he digs for a creature and can't find one before I kill him.
SB: -2 Elspeth, -2 Downfall, -2 Bile Blight, -2 Elvish Mystic || +2 Drown in Sorrow, +2 Erase, +2 Banishing Light, +1 Utter End, +1 Stain the Mind
This meta is not the one I'll be playing at very often, so I'm not going to consider cutting elspeth for being too slow - she's just not great against really fast aggro decks that go wider than Abzan can (and we can go pretty wide, especially on defense)
I also ran into a Nemesis Wave player and helped test his deck - you want to remove all your walkers and wingmate rocs for that matchup, because even wealth for 6 usually wins the game. I've been keen on the card for a while, and I think it's something people will have to at least keep in mind.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
For vault I've got naturalize in there; I replaced an erase with it. Not great but also hits whip, courser etc
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
If you're on the try to blow up vault plan which I'm not convinced it right, Reclamation Sage probably does a better job of it.
Standard: UB control.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
-or-
R
Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
Fires Rf Salvation
You just said it yourself: if we don't resolve threats the game is over. A typical U/B control deck has as many "answers" (i.e. counterspells and removal) as we have threats. Gods Willing "answers" their removal, and that's fine, but it doesn't challenge their counterspells -- or Perilous Vault, or Ætherspouts -- while a creature or PW does. That means that, yes, if you play an early creature with W open and the opponent is relying on early removal w/ no counterspells (or you played it before they had counter mana), your creature will last until a Spouts, Vault, or a response (probably Murderous Cut or Negate) to your GW.
You might also think of it this way: if you're in topdeck mode and the control player is, too, would you rather rip a Gods Willing or, say, Nissa or Reaper of the Wilds?
This isn't a defeatist mentality, it's a strategy based on numbers and specific card matchups.
Wouldn't we want to keep in Downfall to answer Ashiok? I initially boarded out all removal vs control, but Ashiok kept giving my opponents easy wins. I'd rather board out Wingmate Roc, which is a five-mana investment for a creature with two abilities that are probably irrelevant in this matchup (you're unlikely to trigger raid unless the opponent has a plan).
3x Forest
2x Llanowar Wastes
2x Mana Confluence
2x Plains
4x Sandsteppe Citadel
3x Temple of Malady
1x Temple of Plenty
1x Temple of Silence
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Windswept Heath
1x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Bile Blight
4x Hero's Downfall
1x Silence the Believers
1x Utter End
4x Thoughtseize
1x Whip of Erebos
4x Courser of Kruphix
4x Siege Rhino
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Wingmate Roc
2x Bile Blight
4x Drown in Sorrow
2x End Hostilities
2x Hornet Queen
1x Liliana Vess
2x Murderous Cut
2x Naturalize