I'm having some serious issues with Jeskai Wins, or at least my friends build of it (which is s pretty standard build). Now i havent taken actual statistics, but i FEEL like im losing 7/10 times pre-SB, with the odds going slightly back in my favor post-board.
He does run 2 maindeck Banishing Light and Deflecting Palm which is perhaps not standard for jeskai tempo, but the rest of his deck is pretty stock with the full burn suite of strikes/stokes/jets/charm, creatures of 4x mantis rider/seeker of the way/rabblemaster, and of course a couple sarkhans and dig through times.
Seeker of the way does ALOT of work against me, especially when hes on the play. No chance im blocking it with my caryatid, and alot of the time he will just use removal and get in for damage, rinse and repeat until i get something big out, then just finish me off with burn.
Additionally, stoke allows them to play rabblemaster and convoke the token so it doesnt have to attack, which lets them build up a token army until their rabblemaster can trade with your larger creatures like rhino and roc. Or they build up a token army, make a huge attack and use jeskai charm to +1 and lifelink their army. They just have so many annoying plays.
Post-board my bile blight and drown in sorrows help me get rid of the seekers and rabblemasters easily, which is the main problem for me. My question is this: has anyone come up with any good strategies against jeskai tempo? When they play rabblemaster t3 do you downfall it or play a courser? How do you deal with rabblemaster when they use convoke to build their army? Do you normally play defensively or try to run them over? I would really like some help on this.
I've been playing Abzan before KTK came out. I'll provide some thoughts.
I eventually settled on Ari's version minus the two Elvish Mystics. I added a 25th land and run 1 hornet queen (who was been phenomenal and won me matches, pulled me out of trouble, and wrecks mirror). Went down to one Ajani, mentor of heroes and main decked a nissa, worldwaker.
I have ran and tested a multitude of versions of this deck. Versions with and without fleecemane lion. 0 Sylvan Carytid build (which I got I destroyed by aggro), 1 color short at times for drown in sorrow, courser of kruphix, etc. One thing is for sure I used to run 4 hero's downfall, went to 3. Brought it back to four. It's just to good.
I have been having huge issues versus latest verisons of Jeskai and Temur. Dissolve, distainful stroke and stubborn denial are hard to play against. There has been an increasing number of Stormbreath Dragon's as well. Which is, as we know, difficult for us to deal with.
Which led me to the start thinking the past few days about Thoughtseize, as Kamahl just mentioned. It has been slightly lackluster MD. I find more and more matches are going into top deck mode. I mean I would never run the deck without thoughtseize in the 75.
I started running the version below and with a little surprise it actually performed way above my expectations. It's not final but so far so good. Some notes below.
Genesis Hydra - Has been amazing. He dodges distainful stroke, can blow someone out late game. Even if countered his ETB ability cannot be countered. Which has been a huge help especially vs Temur and Jeskai. He's also great in the mirror in top deck mode. Swing, cast hydra, get a Wingmate Roc, Planeswalker, close out with a Siege Rhino. The only thing you have to worry about is Hushwing Gryff. Luckily most lists only have 0-2 in the 75. The odd Jeskai deck has 4, but you can board accordingly. The card is great vs UB as well. 2 for 1's vs control are always good, especially when 2nd ability (ETB) can't be countered.
Banishing Light - Was an erase. However much better option if I am running Genesis Hydra
I have tried mistcutter hydra. However the card was unable to push through in alot of scenario's. Bow of Nylea was good at times. But felt like it just prevented the inevitable. Arbor colossus wasn't too bad. But being a 1 for 1 and mono colored, I decided to opt out. Hornet queen for one more mana is way better.
I may want another wrath in board possibly switching Anafenza in board to something else. Thinking about a 2nd hornet queen. A part of me really wants to use a Setessan Tactics SB.
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes - Im on the fence with ditching him or sending him to board. Not sure. On the fence. He's great at times and underwhelming. Not sure what to replace him with. Either another GEnesis Hydra, Herald of Torment or another wingmate roc. Welcome thoughts on this.
Considering going to 24 lands. Little paranoid about it, especially running hydra and queen.
The rest of the cards are self explanatory.
One thing is for sure, I don't think I could run without caryatid's. I don't miss elvish mystics.
On another note!
Alexander Lien's Abzan midrange deck that's in the top 8 in this weekends starcity open. Is only running 1 THoughtseize main deck. I believe he is playing a Temur deck. Interested to see how that goes.
I don't like some of the card choices he has. Doomwake Giant I never really liked in this deck. I feel Whip of erebos should be Sorin, Solemn visitor. Like the two hornet queen's. And Pharika really interests me!
I think some of the most important things to be examining right now are Sylvan Caryatid and Thoughtseize in the mainboard, simply because of how volatile this format is. When I say volatile, I am not saying that there are not decks that are clearly better and more consistent, I mean that even the most consistent lists are not streamlined.
To exemplify, I was playing in a Super IQ yesterday and was starting out strong with a 3-0 record.
Round 5, I was playing against Mardu Midrange. Game 2 I lead out with a turn 3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos followed by a Sorin, Solemn Visitor to halt multiple Goblin Rabblemasters and removal to keep my lifegain token engine online until my opponent is dead. Game 3 my opponent is out of resources with a card in hand and a 2/2 Vampire token on board. I am at 3 life, no removal in hand for the token, and put my opponent on a Crackling Doom. EOT I cast Abzan Charm and he responds with Crackling Doom hastily, under the impression I was going to be drawing cards. I put 2 counters on his token so the Elspeth, Sun's Champion in my hand can set me up to have a walker on board and 0 cards in his hand. There was a couple more turns before it was ended in his favor, but the extremes of these games are just nuts.
People out draw people all of the time. I am not salty at all, and I admit that some draws you just cannot beat. But the disparity in power level between key creatures and everything else, is extremely great and it creates a format where whoever draws them first in a quick game, wins and whoever draws more in a late game wins. It takes me back to when we had Titans in the Standard format. You had good cards that decks ran, and then you had Titans that were leagues above pretty much every other card a deck could run. The game devolved into top-deck haymaker, play haymaker, hope you have a turn go unmolested - win. A great number of people hated that format and while that was probably mostly in part of the Titans being reprinted, it was a style of play that got extremely exhausting for many others.
This is why this format is incredibly volatile. We are seeing things still shift each week as we see various decks perform and even the more consistent strategies are falling victim to this volatility. Sometimes they just draw the wrong half of their deck at the wrong time and you lose even if you are ahead.
Bringing this back to Sylvan Caryatid and Thoughtseize, these are cards that contribute to the volatile nature of Abzan, drawing them at the wrong time, or too late in the game creates a window where if you opponent manages to draw a pinnacle card in their strategy they can turn the entire game around out of nowhere. Abzan has cards like Read the Bones and Abzan Charm that helps create consistency regardless of whether or not you are running them, but it does not simply eliminate it. If you look at the Mardu Midrange lists, they skip Thoughtseize entirely. The skeleton of the decks hold a similar idea that Abzan has, but it cuts the cards that are dead off the top, where Abzan is just stuck with them. Mardu is much more streamlined than Abzan in the grand scheme of things.
You can make a case with Thoughtseize being in the main to combat Ascendancy decks, especially after this weekend - but even various Abzan lists from this weekend are starting to slim down on Caryatids and even Thougthseize. It seems like a line of progression that people are going to have to give into at some point unless the format changes in a somewhat drastic manner.
All of That Being Said
I started implementing some of my revised strategy plans against Mardu, and the format in general, at the Super IQ yesterday. I feel there is still some things Abzan certainly needs to figure out in the way of dealing with Mardu and other Green midrange strategies, but here is my list and here are my thoughts on it.
The Creatures
Nothing special here. I am not a fan of 4 Courser of Kruphix, the only reason I run it at all is for the CA really. A singleton Brimaz, King of Oreskos is acknowledging that the Lion King + Sorin, Solemn Visitor is incredibly strong against both the random aggro match and the random control match. He also is not the worst possible thing against midrange strategies, mainly Mardu.
The Planeswalkers
I am of the opinion that the best thing you can do to combat Mardu, is to force them to figure out how to avoid having to 2 for 1 you. Their removal package is pretty similar to ours and I know that the worst thing someone can really do to me is unload a bunch of Planeswalkers onto the board. Running a bunch of Planeswalkers means you are, for the most part, blanking their Chain to the Rocks and Crackling Doom by reducing the number of value targets they are capable of hitting with them. The package is pretty typical. It is nice to see that Liliana Vess is making more MB play since Chapin touched ever so lightly on it after GP: Los Angeles. It is nice to be able to search up things like Utter End, End Hostilities, and Garruk, Apex Predator. Garruk was fit into the list because he helps you against the mirror as well as Mardu Midrange, where they can try to out play you with walkers. He slays Sarkhans and Stormbreaths with great efficiency and is yet another 2 for 1 style of card this deck loves so much. I still keep in Ajani, Mentor or Heroes so I can start chaining walker plays or dig for those seemingly elusive Siege Rhinos.
The Instants
I have been splitting my Utter Ends with Silence the Believers to help with Dragon strategies as well as pick up slack in the green devotion style matches. You have the extras out of the board that you can mix and match as needed. Bile Blight making the MB is a response to Mardu Midrange, where their game 1 plan is to just try and aggro you out with Goblin Rabblemaster. If you win game 1 against Mardu Midrange, you are in a position where taking down the match is much more of a reality and moving these to the MB is a concession to that fact.
The Sorceries
Nothing super special here. End Hostilities has made the MB of a few lists I have seen out there and I think with all of the midrange, this is not a bad option at all. Having Liliana in the main lets you fetch for it if you need it and the 2 Read the Bones alongside 4 Abzan Charm can help you draw into it. The Read the Bones are in the MB because in any midrange match, the more cards you draw the less likely you are to lose to the volatile nature of the format and how lists are constructed currently. It also is a huge card in the Mardu match where things are very attrition based.
The Sideboard
I have a lot of onesies here. A lot of them are because you want to min max your card slots in various matches during the course of 3 games. The choices that are probably going to stand out the most are Brimaz, King of Oreskos, Fated Retribution, and Sorin, Solemn Visitor. You want to max Brimaz and Sorin in the aggro match, where you want to stop damage and gain life. This combination is incredibly powerful and I removed Drown in Sorrow because this more than makes up for it in those matches. This combination is also valuable in games where you want to be the aggressor, such as against Control or Jeskai. Both of these cards support your midrange aggro or midrange control approach where you want to be flexible in an effective way. Fated Retribution is probably the best thing you can do in the Mardu match in games 2 and 3. The match can evolve into this really awkward control on control deck where someone is waiting for the other to play the first creature. I generally try to next level this by focusing much more on planeswalkers than creatures and having a reset button for when they get a faster start on that is incredible when you can do it at instant speed. Untapping after it into a walker is a ***** ton of momentum.
After this weekend, there are some changes I will probably be making moving forward. Mainly shaving Thoughtseize again to perhaps 2 of in the MB to see if I can get away with splitting my 4 to reduce the number of times I draw it dead. I probably will end up with something like this:
Something else I may start considering is just moving Elspeth to the SB in favor of Nissa, Worldwaker. I am not entirely sure on this adjustment just yet though.
But those are my current thoughts on the format in general, as well as Abzan Midrange moving forward.
Arbor colossus seems like a good sb card right now vs. Butcher of the horde and stormbreath Dragon. Anybody try this?
I agree about the power of Arbor Colossus, but I think more Murderous Cut would be better. I don't see what the Colossus solves that the Cut can't, except an activated god or monstroused Fleecemane.
- Indulgent Tormentor was actually really good. He ate removal, of course, but they simply cannot leave him. He'll stop Stormbreath and Butcher, (not mantis rider until you buff him)...
Why do you say that the Tormentor won't stop the Rider? The Rider doesn't have first strike.
Yep, your right. I failed to RTFC! I may have had mistcutter hydra on the mind.
Kamahl, I like where the current deck of yours is going. Borderiline Superfriends. Keep us posted on match progress. I feel that aggro good be an issue game 1. As in Boss Sligh, Rabble red etc. I feel some sort of drown in sorrow, more bile blight may be necessary in the 75. Havent tested it though.
I'm having some serious issues with Jeskai Wins, or at least my friends build of it (which is s pretty standard build). Now i havent taken actual statistics, but i FEEL like im losing 7/10 times pre-SB, with the odds going slightly back in my favor post-board.
...
Post-board my bile blight and drown in sorrows help me get rid of the seekers and rabblemasters easily, which is the main problem for me. My question is this: has anyone come up with any good strategies against jeskai tempo? When they play rabblemaster t3 do you downfall it or play a courser? How do you deal with rabblemaster when they use convoke to build their army? Do you normally play defensively or try to run them over? I would really like some help on this.
This should be a favorable matchup for us. You mentioned the best strategy yourself: Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow. My maindeck spell suite is 3 Thoughtseize, 2 Bile Blight, 3 Abzan Charm, 3 Hero's Downfall, and 2 Utter End, with another 1 of each of the instants in the SB. In Game 1, I will happily play an early Thoughtseize to nab a Rabblemaster or Mantis Rider, then destroy the next creature or two that they play. Rabblemaster is absolutely a priority target for your removal.
If I'm short on removal, I'll play creatures whenever I can. The control stance is best, but always spend your mana as efficiently as possible; don't be afraid to play a Fleecemane Lion T2 if you lack Bile Blight -- let them burn it if they want; that's another turn they didn't play Rabblemaster. Likewise, it's better to play your Courser to block Rabblemaster than it is to do nothing.
Most important vs the faster decks (and everyone, really) is the clean development and use of your mana base. You want to be sure you can cast your spells when you want them (see mana base #'s later in this post), and to do something each turn, either posing a problem for the opponent or answering one of theirs. Abzan as access to cards that do both VERY well.
I've been playing Abzan before KTK came out. I'll provide some thoughts.
I eventually settled on Ari's version minus the two Elvish Mystics. I added a 25th land and run 1 hornet queen (who was been phenomenal and won me matches, pulled me out of trouble, and wrecks mirror). Went down to one Ajani, mentor of heroes and main decked a nissa, worldwaker.
I have ran and tested a multitude of versions of this deck. Versions with and without fleecemane lion. 0 Sylvan Carytid build (which I got I destroyed by aggro), 1 color short at times for drown in sorrow, courser of kruphix, etc. One thing is for sure I used to run 4 hero's downfall, went to 3. Brought it back to four. It's just too good.
Of course a 7-drop is good; the question is do we need it in Abzan, or does it just get in the way during the early game while providing unneeded wincons later? If we get to a 7 -mana board state, we should be winning anyway.
With 4 Caryatids and 25 land, you're one short of a half-mana deck. Think a lot about how that affects your late-game topdecks.
Your early mana issues are certainly solved by Caryadid, but there are other options. Your lands provide only 15 B sources, and if you bumped that to 17-19, you'd find early BB much more consistently. Basically, 17 sources gives you about an 80% chance of having two of them by T2 and 85% T3; 19 sources bumps that to 85% and 90%, respectively.
Once you have BB more consistently on T2-3, Bile Blight will fit much more effetively into your removal tempo, which should help you a lot with the matchups you're struggling in. On that note, I firmly believe you need at LEAST two Bile Blight in the main; nearly every prominent deck in the meta runsplentyofjuicytargets, and it's at worst a decent combat trick.
I have been having huge issues versus latest verisons of Jeskai and Temur. Dissolve, disdainful stroke and stubborn denial are hard to play against. There has been an increasing number of Stormbreath Dragon's as well. Which is, as we know, difficult for us to deal with.
Which led me to the start thinking the past few days about Thoughtseize, as Kamahl just mentioned. It has been slightly lackluster MD. I find more and more matches are going into top deck mode. I mean I would never run the deck without thoughtseize in the 75.
I started running the version below and with a little surprise it actually performed way above my expectations. It's not final but so far so good. Some notes below.
LAND
3 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Plenty
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Windswept Heath
1 Caves of Koilos
2 Plains
3 Forest
2 Temple of Silence
1 Mana Confluence
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
INSTANT
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Abzan Charm
1 Utter End
Sideboard
2 End Hostilities
3 Drown in Sorrow
1 Utter End
2 Bile Blight
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
3 Thoughtseize
1 Murderous Cut
1 GEnesis Hydra
1 Banishing Light
Genesis Hydra - Has been amazing. He dodges disdainful stroke, can blow someone out late game. Even if countered his ETB ability cannot be countered. Which has been a huge help especially vs Temur and Jeskai. He's also great in the mirror in top deck mode. Swing, cast hydra, get a Wingmate Roc, Planeswalker, close out with a Siege Rhino. The only thing you have to worry about is Hushwing Gryff. Luckily most lists only have 0-2 in the 75. The odd Jeskai deck has 4, but you can board accordingly. The card is great vs UB as well. 2 for 1's vs control are always good, especially when 2nd ability (ETB) can't be countered.
IMPORTANT: Genesis Hydra does NOT dodge Disdainful Stroke: when the card is on the stack, X counts towards the Converted Mana Cost. Still, it's a good card -- the search trigger is a "WHEN YOU PLAY" ability (not ETB as you noted), so it gets around counterspells and Hushwing Gryff. (Again, though, do we need to go this big to win?)
Your build certainly looks fun; a lot like G/x/x Monsters, but with better removal. If you're having trouble with more aggressive-style decks, though, you have to ask if you're devoting too much to that strategy, or if you want to make better use of the other tools at our disposal.
I think it's more about being able to get a Rhino/Roc through a Stroke.
OK, but the bigger point is still valid: we don't need to be ramping up to 7-mana spells to win with Abzan. The ramp deck spends cards to GET to 7 mana, while one that runs a tighter curve uses those card slots to play more threats and/or answers.
Alexander Lien's Abzan midrange deck that's in the top 8 in this weekends starcity open. Is only running 1 THoughtseize main deck. I believe he is playing a Temur deck. Interested to see how that goes.
I don't like some of the card choices he has. Doomwake Giant I never really liked in this deck. I feel Whip of erebos should be Sorin, Solemn visitor. Like the two hornet queen's. And Pharika really interests me!
The doomwake giant, while mediocre in testing, was amazing for me the entire tournament. No one played around them, and in addition to helping against two difficult to beat cards (Hornet Queen and Elspeth) it also allows your guys to push through damage and eats mana dorks and aggro dudes. Siege Rhino is pretty awful in the mirror when compared to either Polukranos or Reaper of the Wilds, so I originally had one in the maindeck and one in the sideboard. I upped the count to respect Jeskai Tempo, which I thought would be wildly popular but was basically a no-show at the tournament. Whip of Erebos is much better than Sorin in the matchups where you want him, namely agaist Jeskai. Sorin might gain some life, but he ultimately dies to a burn spell. Whip just wins the game. In the mirror neither are particularly good but at least whip doesn't become rhino food. Sorin is better when you have total board dominance, but that's not a situation to plan for. Hornet Queen is absurd in any midrange mirror, and I don't really know why it hasn't caught on. Most Abzan decks don't maindeck a way to deal with it, and those that do usually only have one out. Plus what are they going to do if they know about it? Board in Drown in Sorrow that hits literally nothing else in the deck?
If there are any questions I'd be happy to answer them. Suggestions are welcome!
The 1 thoughtseize was almost always boarded out. The field right now is pretty much mono-midrange, and in my opinion thoughtseize is terrible in those. Seize is the worst card to topdeck lategame, and the games go late a lot. I had 1 main to go with the theme of 1-ofs but mostly I felt like it didn't matter if it was 1 or 0, which were the two numbers I was considering. All 4 definitely belong in the 75 somewhere though. Any synergy deck falls flat to that card, and it helped me against the two heroic decks I played against and in the top 8 against Temur Monsters. I think Seize should be boarded in against any deck that can be expected to have a lot of cards in their hand even in the late game (Jeskai Tempo, U/B Control) or a deck trying to go over the top of you (Devotion decks). Seize is a very powerful card, and the number of maindeck seizes pretty much depends on the expected metagame.
The 1 thoughtseize was almost always boarded out. The field right now is pretty much mono-midrange, and in my opinion thoughtseize is terrible in those. Seize is the worst card to topdeck lategame, and the games go late a lot. I had 1 main to go with the theme of 1-ofs but mostly I felt like it didn't matter if it was 1 or 0, which were the two numbers I was considering. All 4 definitely belong in the 75 somewhere though. Any synergy deck falls flat to that card, and it helped me against the two heroic decks I played against and in the top 8 against Temur Monsters. I think Seize should be boarded in against any deck that can be expected to have a lot of cards in their hand even in the late game (Jeskai Tempo, U/B Control) or a deck trying to go over the top of you (Devotion decks). Seize is a very powerful card, and the number of maindeck seizes pretty much depends on the expected metagame.
Congrats on your solid finish. You say thoughtseize should be boarded in against Jeskai Tempo, but I test against it alot, and I find it somewhat lackluster. Often times you are removing a burn spell and while it feels like saving yourself 1-2 damage, in reality you are allowing them to more easily burn you out by dealing yourself damage. I get burned out by jeskai -much- more often when I draw thoughtseize and play it than not. In fact I side it out the first chance I get against Jeskai. I'm interested to hear your reasons why you feel it is good against them, other than the fact that they still have cards in hand in the mid-late game.
I have 3 Thoughtseize maindeck right now, and I am seriously considering moving them to sideboard because as you say, the meta right now is almost solely midrange. Having said that, I do agree with you that it is almost necessary to have atleast 3 in the 75 somewhere, but I'm thinking more and more that it doesn't belong in the main ATM.
I played against you that last game at GoB Friday night. It was the mirror. I learned a lot and I guess I just wanted to break down my experience and see what you think about some particular cards and matchups. I tried to split up paragraphs by cards and realized I wrote a lot as I also wanted to get my thoughts down. I don't mean to impose on your time so thank you for reading and I hope anything sticks out as intersting!
First, how did you like fleecemane lion? Did you like it over Rakshasha Deathdealer? I loved Deathdealer whenever it came out of the board. Amazing against U/B control and against decks with Disdainful Stroke and pumping makes it a 4/4 with regen option most of the time. The problem I see is that it can be targeted and exiled.
In that vein, how did Reaper of the Wild? I loved the card in theory and if it worked well for you I will probably start including it.
I love the singleton Pharika, God of Affliction and was one of the things I thought about including but didn't own one. Did you ever get devotion for it? I think it's great that you can use it in response to opponent's Whip of Erebos. Did you ever use it that way and do you think the deathtouch token that they get is relevant? Btw, Doomwake Giant is an obvious inclusion with Pharika and when you used it that night it was just an awesome instant speed interaction that deserves the spots in the deck. Did you play/have any trouble with opposing Whip decks? My singleton Anafenza, the Foremost was great against Disdainful Stroke and while easy to kill, was a relvenat 4/4 body in the matchups that it came in on. If Whip becomes a thing, a singleton of each could deal with both creatures entering and creatures already in the 'yard.
I'd throw my hat in the 0-1 Thoughtseize MB with 4 in the 75 for sure. You said it all. But I guess now we get to the contentious part of the whole thing. Do you join Hornet Queen or beat it? I certainly got housed by it when it got played against me, and the Whip is really a dirty interaction. That being said, I will be trying to beat that interaction in particular as it is the only one that I really felt blew me out of the water. I think cards like Bile Blight and Hushwing Gryff could be real answers that interact favorably in other situations. I guess this is a big one that I'll be testing out because the 7 mana is scary and congratulations on reading the meta correctly with that, it clearly paid off this weekend.
I know we had a bit of a conversation about Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and I did like it when it came out. It's weakness is that it whiffed one time when the board was empty and the opponent just Hero's Downfall. That was only once, though, and I think now that I'm off the control plan (As an aside, the control plan was not right. The threat route is the way to go and I think I went that way because I used the removal as a crutch for my lack of playtesting and weak play), it will not miss as much and I do think you'd find it hit something a lot in your deck. It's definitely powerful and worth testing I think.
On the other planeswalker side, I agree that Sorin, Solemn Visitor is definitely not as good as Whip can be and I always thought he was lackluster. Unless Whip starts getting a lot of hate, Sorin might not be the right call. I'll probably 1/1 split until GP San Antonio to see which one I like more.
I noticed you didn't run End Hostilities or Duneblast. How did that go? Did you miss them at all?
From my end, the only things I really can add is that Read the Bones is suuuuuper powerful. I can't really see it more than 1 in 75, but it's never bad. I really think it needs a spot. The only other thing I saw that I liked a lot (well, not at the time because I was playing against it) was Erebos, God of the Dead. The interaction with Whip is crazy, not to mention both of his abilities are very relevant.
Edit: Also of note: Liliana Vess tutor two turns in a row is nothing to sneeze at. The discard was pretty useless in the tope deck war and it seemed like making a control player discard a drop from their sea of cards in hand. Honestly, the ultimate is tempting, but the +1 isn't worth it. Like I said, two for on tutor or eats a downfall or burn or something. S'good.
Edit 2: Because I wanted to get a test list up while I was still fresh and that I can start working on tomorrow, I put this together:
If Sorin fails, probably MB the Queen and SB another Whip. I like the idea of 4 Blight in the 75, but may drop 1 to add a Reaper if you found them useful, which would also make me do a 3/2 split with Rhino/Reaper. That said, I think Rhino is so good, did you miss him with only 3 in the deck? Also if Liliana and Ajani don't work out, they would probably be replaced by some more Hornet Queens in the 75 if I decide to keep going that route.
Thanks for giving insight to your card choices Alex. I too main decked hornet queen. Thinking about a 2nd in the sideboard. She's just closed games easy in the mirror and other midrange strategies.
Any side boarding tips vs jeskai and temur? Counter heavy builds can be troublesome for me. I know you battled temur in the top 8. At any time did you board out doomwake giant and pharika?
How do you feel about reaper of the wilds now? Any changes to the number? I think I'm just so hooked on rhino, tough dropping the numbers. Speaking of numbers, would you keep the 2 Mystics?
As mentioned before thoughts on end hostilities and duneblast being absent from your board?
Congrats on your solid finish. You say thoughtseize should be boarded in against Jeskai Tempo, but I test against it alot, and I find it somewhat lackluster. Often times you are removing a burn spell and while it feels like saving yourself 1-2 damage, in reality you are allowing them to more easily burn you out by dealing yourself damage. I get burned out by jeskai -much- more often when I draw thoughtseize and play it than not. In fact I side it out the first chance I get against Jeskai. I'm interested to hear your reasons why you feel it is good against them, other than the fact that they still have cards in hand in the mid-late game.
Any side boarding tips vs jeskai and temur? Counter heavy builds can be troublesome for me. I know you battled temur in the top 8. At any time did you board out doomwake giant and pharika?
How do you feel about reaper of the wilds now? Any changes to the number? I think I'm just so hooked on rhino, tough dropping the numbers. Speaking of numbers, would you keep the 2 Mystics?
As mentioned before thoughts on end hostilities and duneblast being absent from your board?
Congrats making it so far with a unique list!
Thoughtseize is the best way to beat heavy counter decks, which is the main reason I bring in Seize against Jeskai, btw. Their board plain is often to bring in slow expensive spells (Elspeth, Dragon, End Hostilities) and just counter all the spells that matter (Rhino, Sorin, Whip). Since they always have cards in hand, even if they don't have one of those spells Seize is still a bad Healing Salve against Jeskai Charm and Stoke, which I'm not too unhappy with in this matchup. The information is vital though, since if you know they dont have Hushwing Gryff or a counterspell you want to slam Sorin/Whip/Rhino asap and if they have multiple Disdainful Strokes then you can play around them by playing cheaper spells like Courser of Kruphix or Fleecemane Lion.
It was especially effective against the Temur deck I played against in top 8 since his deck was short on threats. He had a basic combo of threat + counterspell backup, so I could either taking his last threat and making him do nothing or by taking his counterspell and slamming a reaper or a rhino. Again, the information of the counterspell's existence and which ones to play around is very important. Even if you dont draw sieze, watch for his mana. Why did he play Polukranos on turn 4 with a rattleclaw mystic untapped? He could have played it turn 3. Be wary when they pass with 3 mana up representing Charm.
The problem with Rhino is that to most people it looks all fine because it's always at least a 4 mana 4/5, but in around 70% of my matches when I drew it I was wondering why I did not replace it with reaper. Life totals do not matter in a midrange mirror. Rhino stalls are common, and reaper just breaks that wide open. Of course in that 30% I was very happy to draw it and would have been in a far far worse situation if it were a reaper. Against aggressive decks where life totals actually matter, the 3 life is a godsend. That being said, in those matchups reaper is also quite good since a 4 mana 4/5 that scrys you into answers pairs well against their cheaper weaker guys. So I might just go up on total # of 4-drops by moving the reaper into the mainboard, since it came in every round anyway. Elvish Mystic is important to this plan, since dork into turn 3 4-drop is sweet, if not sweeter than turn 3 courser + land off the top. Also, I might be biased since I love Llanowar Elves and all of its clones.
In retrospect, I'm wishing I had an End Hostilities somewhere in the 75. There were a lot of places where that would have been very good, mostly when my opponents tried to get aggressive with their removal in a board stall to push in damage. Duneblast I'm convinced is just a worse Hornet Queen. I don't think it can be better than 7 mana In Garruk's Wake that can also attack for damage and get whipped back.
Doomwake Giant was never boarded out. It was amazing, and the look of surprise on my opponents' faces when an Abzan player slammed it was unreal. You know that feeling when you get them with the +1/+1 counters mode on Abzan Charm? Well this is 100x better. Heck there was one opponent who called my Abzan Charm bluff when I had 4 mana up, then called it again when I had 5...(hint: Giant costs 5). Other uses include eating a polukranos with Whip triggering Constellation, killing multiple soldiers against Jeskai Heroic Combo (Congratulations to Ivan Jen for winning the open with an innovative list!), and eating two elvish mystics against Temur. Pharika, on the other hand, is very bad in any matchup where your life total is being pressured. I'm considering moving her to the board to trade for reaper, but in the games where she is good she's the best card in the deck bar hornet queen (And sometimes better since she survives wraths). She was turned on in around three of my games where she becomes a fleecemane lion that can block when they swing back.
First, how did you like fleecemane lion? Did you like it over Rakshasha Deathdealer? I loved Deathdealer whenever it came out of the board. Amazing against U/B control and against decks with Disdainful Stroke and pumping makes it a 4/4 with regen option most of the time. The problem I see is that it can be targeted and exiled.
I know we had a bit of a conversation about Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and I did like it when it came out. It's weakness is that it whiffed one time when the board was empty and the opponent just Hero's Downfall. That was only once, though, and I think now that I'm off the control plan (As an aside, the control plan was not right. The threat route is the way to go and I think I went that way because I used the removal as a crutch for my lack of playtesting and weak play), it will not miss as much and I do think you'd find it hit something a lot in your deck. It's definitely powerful and worth testing I think.
From my end, the only things I really can add is that Read the Bones is suuuuuper powerful. I can't really see it more than 1 in 75, but it's never bad. I really think it needs a spot. The only other thing I saw that I liked a lot (well, not at the time because I was playing against it) was Erebos, God of the Dead. The interaction with Whip is crazy, not to mention both of his abilities are very relevant.
Edit: Also of note: Liliana Vess tutor two turns in a row is nothing to sneeze at. The discard was pretty useless in the tope deck war and it seemed like making a control player discard a drop from their sea of cards in hand. Honestly, the ultimate is tempting, but the +1 isn't worth it. Like I said, two for on tutor or eats a downfall or burn or something. S'good.
I actually haven't tested Deathdealer, but I like them a lot. My friend convinced me that Lion was better in the matchups where I needed them, against aggressive decks. plus Deathdealer doesn't pair well with the maindeck drown in dorrow.
I haven't tested Ajani because it feels like a very weak Elspeth to me. Both take over the game if left unchecked, but Elspeth also protects herself from harm, leaving the only possible answer to her as Wingmate Roc and Hero's Downfall. Same issue with Liliana and with Sorin. They don't properly guard themselves in the mirror so they lose quite quickly to multiple rhinos.
I did test Read the bones a long time ago, and I felt like I would rather have Erebos, God of the Dead. In the grindy attrition games I would rather cast read the bones every turn than just once, and that's what Erebos does. Ultimately though, I feel like my deck is well enough set up for these matchups that I don't need more than 4 draw spells, but I could be wrong here.
Thanks for your replies, Alex! I'll definitely take all of this into consideration. You are right about the conflict between Drown and Deathdealer. Gotta say, though, never had a problem with it because he was in the board and he only came in matchups that drown came out, so that was convenient. Don't know how they will work together in the main, so playtesting will have to tell me. Can't say enough about him though against control.
I'll be testing the planeswalkers out and taking note of which matchups they actively hurt me and decide before GP SA. I'm going to test out Erebos to see if I like him with Whip as I do think the two can work well together. I'd really only board him in the mirror, possibly against control, but i'm not that worried about them gaining life, so probably only the mirror. I could definitely see Pharika as SB tech instead of MB, btw. Like you said, can't see it that useful in non-midrange matchups.
I've been playing Chapin's list for some time now, and have gradually started to drift away from it. Reading the discussions on here about Thoughtseize and realizing that I do agree with them, here's where I'm/what I would like to test:
I have not yet computed the manabase, but it will most likely have 4 Sandsteppe Citadel, 4 Windswept Heath, 4-5 Forest/Plains to fetch, and an Urborg. So that's 13-14 of the 25 done, the rest will be some combination of scrylands and painlands.
I'm a fan of the Bile Blight MD, mainly because it just seems like a card with many valuable targets right now. You almost always hit something with G1. And, in the case that it doesn't, I guess it can function as a combat trick to help your Rhino win combat.
I like Kamahl's move of doing a 3/1 split at the 3-drop slot with Courser and Brimaz. Courser's main function is really for that land-of-the-top advantage, letting you dig into threats while giving you mana. The lifegain is sweet, but 1 in play is usually enough. And, of course, Brimaz works REALLY well with Sorin and that is something I'd love to try.
I also like the suggestion on Read the Bones turning into an Erebos, as well as on Reaper of the Wilds. Doomwake Giant was in my original Abzan list and is always in the running for a slot, particularly when I know that lots of people are playing Hornet Queen.
Not sure about Fleecemane. I put it there mainly to have something else to do on Turn 2, and it's at least better than topdecking a Caryatid. Is Fleecemane still okay to play with? I may be testing something you guys already have notes on, might as well ask.
Played against a Heroic Jeskai Ascendancy deck last night. Gotta say, first game was a blowout. The deck is really versatile, being able to combo off randomly, while still pressuring early and winning the aggro game if it doesn't draw the combo. I got overrun by weenies first game with a jeskai charm. While I don't think we have to add new cards to combat the deck (I think normal Ascedency hate + weenie hate is a good combo. Even Hero's Downfall seems too expensive to keep all four post-board), it's definitely an intense matchup, where you also have to think about closing the game quickly once you stabilize or risk getting comboed.
I played against the deck last night and went 1-1 where the guy rage quit (or just had to go, I like rage quit more lol) after I used Abzan Charm to pump my two sylvan caryatids to take out his attacking Akroan Crusader and another token (I normally wouldn't block a Prowess dude unless I was ready to lose whatever I blocked with). I don't think he played around the charm and lost a big part of his plan with that. Even if you can get them to use a God's Willing or some other Heroic/Prowess enabler, it can prevent them from using it when they want to combo off/do a bunch of damage with prowess. The deck has many cantrips that work with the plan, so unlike normal aggro, it is hardly ever in full top deck mode, always having a few cards in hand. Retraction Helix is also used offensively to bounce a courser of kruphix before attacks to keep bashing in. I don't think I kept anything higher than 4cmc post board. Elspeth, Sun's Champion may theoretically stabilize with tokens, but that's only if you can get there, and a lot of times I don't want to use caryatids for mana so I can block.
I am usually very busy being a teacher and tutoring after school, but I've been trying to get at least one match in every day. If I come across anything cool I'll keep adding my match notes. Felt this one was noteworthy because it beat our comrade at SCG Oakland (well, don't know if actually BEAT him, but did better), and I could see it being a muuuuch more resilient Ascendancy deck, which is exactly what that deck needed to be more successful.
I've been testing out the list quite a bit and I really like soul of theros. I think he is going to stick around in the list because it allows you to play after whip gets hated on. One change I made was taking out eidolon of blossoms since I found her to be too awkward in the hand and of only real use while in the grave. I've been testing reaper of the wilds as a replacement and I really like it. It may not get the constellation trigger off but I think the added protection and threat makes it worth it.
I'd like other peoples thoughts on the deck. Brad Nelson's main complaint in his scg video was the sideboard, which he felt needed to include wraths and elspeth for devotion match ups.
Know thine enemy, yes, but we can also take a lot from this article and apply it to our own build and play strategies. Specifically, the section on tuning your deck really stood out as the strategy I'm trying to adopt in my Abzan build:
Quote from Andrew Baeckstrom »
Tuning Mardu Midrange
As I mentioned earlier, this Standard format is defined by having cards and strategies that matchup well with what your opponent is doing. Mardu Midrange is a flexible strategy that can adapt as the metagame does, but there are lots of simple mistakes that you can make when doing so. One of the critical aspects to tuning Mardu Midrange is preserving your ability to achieve the primary objective of the deck. To reiterate, that is the ability to have an aggressive plan in game one with Seeker of the Way and Goblin Rabblemaster, and to have the option to sideboard into a controlling deck in subsequent games. We want to evaluate cards for the deck on a couple of criteria.
1. Does this card allow us to pressure an opponent early, provide reach, or help clear the way for other threats?
2. Does this card have utility when we are playing a longer, grindier game? How bad of a topdeck is it?
3. How useful is this card when we are playing from behind, especially when we are on the draw?
Now, not every card in your deck has to have a positive answer to every question I just listed. Goblin Rabblemaster is not especially impressive when playing from behind or in a long grindier game where it is consistently answered before triggering. The card is so exceptionally good at providing early pressure on its own, however, that we let it slide.
Now when he says Seeker of the Way, I think Fleecemane Lion or Rakshasa Deathdealer; when he says Rabblemaster, I think Brimaz. I know a lot of you are moving to more "rampy" builds, but I'm still not convinced that bigger is always better, at least in Abzan. I think if we look at our deck through this lens, it might help us find the same transformative flexibility that Mardu boasts.
The "ramp" approach and bigger game plan is more about next leveling Mardu than anything. If you are switching to a heavy walker plan, cards like Crackling Doom and Chained to the Rocks become a lot worse and this is probably the most appealing part about the big Abzan lists.
Beat Jeskai Tempo 2-1 last night. First two games were pretty decisive in either direction. I took game 1 slamming threats and pulling ahead in CA, he had a good draw, and me not enough removal.
Third game was great. I mulled to 5, he stayed at 7. He wasn't able to play threats in the first few turns (he might have been playing around removal or waiting for me to tap out, or he may have just been playing the control game, but he wasn't mana screwed). Card draw on Abzan Charm and siege rhino get countered early, but still not many threats and I'm managing a single Goblin Rabblemaster with a sylvan caryatid and a courser of kruphix. Then Keranos, God of Storms and the race is on. I'm forced to deal with creatures to make sure the board is empty. Had enough removal to pull it off.
Take aways: Once Keranos hits, it's pretty much a race unless you have Erase or utter end. Also, I don't know if it's the right play, but I tend to use my removal on my turn to lower the probabilities of them countering.
I've been testing out the list quite a bit and I really like soul of theros. I think he is going to stick around in the list because it allows you to play after whip gets hated on. One change I made was taking out eidolon of blossoms since I found her to be too awkward in the hand and of only real use while in the grave. I've been testing reaper of the wilds as a replacement and I really like it. It may not get the constellation trigger off but I think the added protection and threat makes it worth it.
I'd like other peoples thoughts on the deck. Brad Nelson's main complaint in his scg video was the sideboard, which he felt needed to include wraths and elspeth for devotion match ups.
Yeah, I thought the 4 Fleecemane sideboard was goofy. I know the Fleecemanes won Edward the last game of the finals, but there have to be better cards for those spots. I might do what Brad says and put in Elspeth and End Hostilities.
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He does run 2 maindeck Banishing Light and Deflecting Palm which is perhaps not standard for jeskai tempo, but the rest of his deck is pretty stock with the full burn suite of strikes/stokes/jets/charm, creatures of 4x mantis rider/seeker of the way/rabblemaster, and of course a couple sarkhans and dig through times.
Seeker of the way does ALOT of work against me, especially when hes on the play. No chance im blocking it with my caryatid, and alot of the time he will just use removal and get in for damage, rinse and repeat until i get something big out, then just finish me off with burn.
Additionally, stoke allows them to play rabblemaster and convoke the token so it doesnt have to attack, which lets them build up a token army until their rabblemaster can trade with your larger creatures like rhino and roc. Or they build up a token army, make a huge attack and use jeskai charm to +1 and lifelink their army. They just have so many annoying plays.
Post-board my bile blight and drown in sorrows help me get rid of the seekers and rabblemasters easily, which is the main problem for me. My question is this: has anyone come up with any good strategies against jeskai tempo? When they play rabblemaster t3 do you downfall it or play a courser? How do you deal with rabblemaster when they use convoke to build their army? Do you normally play defensively or try to run them over? I would really like some help on this.
I eventually settled on Ari's version minus the two Elvish Mystics. I added a 25th land and run 1 hornet queen (who was been phenomenal and won me matches, pulled me out of trouble, and wrecks mirror). Went down to one Ajani, mentor of heroes and main decked a nissa, worldwaker.
I have ran and tested a multitude of versions of this deck. Versions with and without fleecemane lion. 0 Sylvan Carytid build (which I got I destroyed by aggro), 1 color short at times for drown in sorrow, courser of kruphix, etc. One thing is for sure I used to run 4 hero's downfall, went to 3. Brought it back to four. It's just to good.
I have been having huge issues versus latest verisons of Jeskai and Temur. Dissolve, distainful stroke and stubborn denial are hard to play against. There has been an increasing number of Stormbreath Dragon's as well. Which is, as we know, difficult for us to deal with.
Which led me to the start thinking the past few days about Thoughtseize, as Kamahl just mentioned. It has been slightly lackluster MD. I find more and more matches are going into top deck mode. I mean I would never run the deck without thoughtseize in the 75.
I started running the version below and with a little surprise it actually performed way above my expectations. It's not final but so far so good. Some notes below.
Current Version:
2 Temple of Plenty
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Windswept Heath
1 Caves of Koilos
2 Plains
3 Forest
2 Temple of Silence
1 Mana Confluence
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
INSTANT
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Abzan Charm
1 Utter End
1 Drown in Sorrow
PLANESWALKER
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
CREATURES
2 Fleecemane Lion
1 Genesis Hydra
2 Wingmate Roc
4 Courser of Kruphix
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Siege Rhino
1 Hornet Queen
2 End Hostilities
3 Drown in Sorrow
1 Utter End
2 Bile Blight
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
3 Thoughtseize
1 Murderous Cut
1 GEnesis Hydra
1 Banishing Light
Genesis Hydra - Has been amazing. He dodges distainful stroke, can blow someone out late game. Even if countered his ETB ability cannot be countered. Which has been a huge help especially vs Temur and Jeskai. He's also great in the mirror in top deck mode. Swing, cast hydra, get a Wingmate Roc, Planeswalker, close out with a Siege Rhino. The only thing you have to worry about is Hushwing Gryff. Luckily most lists only have 0-2 in the 75. The odd Jeskai deck has 4, but you can board accordingly. The card is great vs UB as well. 2 for 1's vs control are always good, especially when 2nd ability (ETB) can't be countered.
Banishing Light - Was an erase. However much better option if I am running Genesis Hydra
I have tried mistcutter hydra. However the card was unable to push through in alot of scenario's. Bow of Nylea was good at times. But felt like it just prevented the inevitable. Arbor colossus wasn't too bad. But being a 1 for 1 and mono colored, I decided to opt out. Hornet queen for one more mana is way better.
I may want another wrath in board possibly switching Anafenza in board to something else. Thinking about a 2nd hornet queen. A part of me really wants to use a Setessan Tactics SB.
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes - Im on the fence with ditching him or sending him to board. Not sure. On the fence. He's great at times and underwhelming. Not sure what to replace him with. Either another GEnesis Hydra, Herald of Torment or another wingmate roc. Welcome thoughts on this.
Considering going to 24 lands. Little paranoid about it, especially running hydra and queen.
The rest of the cards are self explanatory.
One thing is for sure, I don't think I could run without caryatid's. I don't miss elvish mystics.
On another note!
Alexander Lien's Abzan midrange deck that's in the top 8 in this weekends starcity open. Is only running 1 THoughtseize main deck. I believe he is playing a Temur deck. Interested to see how that goes.
I don't like some of the card choices he has. Doomwake Giant I never really liked in this deck. I feel Whip of erebos should be Sorin, Solemn visitor. Like the two hornet queen's. And Pharika really interests me!
To exemplify, I was playing in a Super IQ yesterday and was starting out strong with a 3-0 record.
Round 4, I was sitting across from a Naya Monsters deck, basically a monsters deck running Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and Elspeth, Sun's Champion to top off Xenagos, the Reveler and taking advantage of Fleecemain Lion. Myself and my opponent are at both at 8 life and I have 2 Siege Rhino, End Hostilities and a Fated Retribution in hand with 8 mana on board and 1 Siege Rhino on board. My opponent has a loaded board with tokens, Hornet Queen, Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, and Fleecemane Lion that is non-monstrous and has 3 counters on it. Long story short, I punted by not blocking the Lion with my Rhino before throwing down Fated Retribution. We both rolled over the top 2 cards of our library to see where it would have gone from there had I made made the block like I had instructed myself to do the turn before... my cards were Thoughtseize then land. His were Fleecemane Lion then a Xenagos, the Reveler.
Round 5, I was playing against Mardu Midrange. Game 2 I lead out with a turn 3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos followed by a Sorin, Solemn Visitor to halt multiple Goblin Rabblemasters and removal to keep my lifegain token engine online until my opponent is dead. Game 3 my opponent is out of resources with a card in hand and a 2/2 Vampire token on board. I am at 3 life, no removal in hand for the token, and put my opponent on a Crackling Doom. EOT I cast Abzan Charm and he responds with Crackling Doom hastily, under the impression I was going to be drawing cards. I put 2 counters on his token so the Elspeth, Sun's Champion in my hand can set me up to have a walker on board and 0 cards in his hand. There was a couple more turns before it was ended in his favor, but the extremes of these games are just nuts.
Round 6, I was up against another Naya Monsters deck. After Thoughtseizing him down to a lonely Polukranos, World Eater for his turn 3 play (on the draw), I am holding onto a Hero's Downfall, Murderous Cut, Siege Rhino, Wingmate Roc in hand that can all be cast by turn 5. I promptly find myself running into a T3 Polukranos, T4 Stormbreath Dragon, T5 Wingmate Roc followed by my concession.
People out draw people all of the time. I am not salty at all, and I admit that some draws you just cannot beat. But the disparity in power level between key creatures and everything else, is extremely great and it creates a format where whoever draws them first in a quick game, wins and whoever draws more in a late game wins. It takes me back to when we had Titans in the Standard format. You had good cards that decks ran, and then you had Titans that were leagues above pretty much every other card a deck could run. The game devolved into top-deck haymaker, play haymaker, hope you have a turn go unmolested - win. A great number of people hated that format and while that was probably mostly in part of the Titans being reprinted, it was a style of play that got extremely exhausting for many others.
This is why this format is incredibly volatile. We are seeing things still shift each week as we see various decks perform and even the more consistent strategies are falling victim to this volatility. Sometimes they just draw the wrong half of their deck at the wrong time and you lose even if you are ahead.
Bringing this back to Sylvan Caryatid and Thoughtseize, these are cards that contribute to the volatile nature of Abzan, drawing them at the wrong time, or too late in the game creates a window where if you opponent manages to draw a pinnacle card in their strategy they can turn the entire game around out of nowhere. Abzan has cards like Read the Bones and Abzan Charm that helps create consistency regardless of whether or not you are running them, but it does not simply eliminate it. If you look at the Mardu Midrange lists, they skip Thoughtseize entirely. The skeleton of the decks hold a similar idea that Abzan has, but it cuts the cards that are dead off the top, where Abzan is just stuck with them. Mardu is much more streamlined than Abzan in the grand scheme of things.
You can make a case with Thoughtseize being in the main to combat Ascendancy decks, especially after this weekend - but even various Abzan lists from this weekend are starting to slim down on Caryatids and even Thougthseize. It seems like a line of progression that people are going to have to give into at some point unless the format changes in a somewhat drastic manner.
All of That Being Said
I started implementing some of my revised strategy plans against Mardu, and the format in general, at the Super IQ yesterday. I feel there is still some things Abzan certainly needs to figure out in the way of dealing with Mardu and other Green midrange strategies, but here is my list and here are my thoughts on it.
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
Planeswalker (7)
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Liliana Vess
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
4 Abzan Charm
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Bile Blight
1 Silence the Believers
1 Utter End
Sorcery (3)
2 Read the Bones
1 End Hotilities
3 Thoughtseize
1 Erase
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 End Hostilities
1 Fated Retribution
1 Bile Blight
1 Thoughtseize
1 Despise
1 Silence the Belivers
1 Murderous Cut
1 Back to Nature
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Utter End
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
The Creatures
Nothing special here. I am not a fan of 4 Courser of Kruphix, the only reason I run it at all is for the CA really. A singleton Brimaz, King of Oreskos is acknowledging that the Lion King + Sorin, Solemn Visitor is incredibly strong against both the random aggro match and the random control match. He also is not the worst possible thing against midrange strategies, mainly Mardu.
The Planeswalkers
I am of the opinion that the best thing you can do to combat Mardu, is to force them to figure out how to avoid having to 2 for 1 you. Their removal package is pretty similar to ours and I know that the worst thing someone can really do to me is unload a bunch of Planeswalkers onto the board. Running a bunch of Planeswalkers means you are, for the most part, blanking their Chain to the Rocks and Crackling Doom by reducing the number of value targets they are capable of hitting with them. The package is pretty typical. It is nice to see that Liliana Vess is making more MB play since Chapin touched ever so lightly on it after GP: Los Angeles. It is nice to be able to search up things like Utter End, End Hostilities, and Garruk, Apex Predator. Garruk was fit into the list because he helps you against the mirror as well as Mardu Midrange, where they can try to out play you with walkers. He slays Sarkhans and Stormbreaths with great efficiency and is yet another 2 for 1 style of card this deck loves so much. I still keep in Ajani, Mentor or Heroes so I can start chaining walker plays or dig for those seemingly elusive Siege Rhinos.
The Instants
I have been splitting my Utter Ends with Silence the Believers to help with Dragon strategies as well as pick up slack in the green devotion style matches. You have the extras out of the board that you can mix and match as needed. Bile Blight making the MB is a response to Mardu Midrange, where their game 1 plan is to just try and aggro you out with Goblin Rabblemaster. If you win game 1 against Mardu Midrange, you are in a position where taking down the match is much more of a reality and moving these to the MB is a concession to that fact.
The Sorceries
Nothing super special here. End Hostilities has made the MB of a few lists I have seen out there and I think with all of the midrange, this is not a bad option at all. Having Liliana in the main lets you fetch for it if you need it and the 2 Read the Bones alongside 4 Abzan Charm can help you draw into it. The Read the Bones are in the MB because in any midrange match, the more cards you draw the less likely you are to lose to the volatile nature of the format and how lists are constructed currently. It also is a huge card in the Mardu match where things are very attrition based.
The Sideboard
I have a lot of onesies here. A lot of them are because you want to min max your card slots in various matches during the course of 3 games. The choices that are probably going to stand out the most are Brimaz, King of Oreskos, Fated Retribution, and Sorin, Solemn Visitor. You want to max Brimaz and Sorin in the aggro match, where you want to stop damage and gain life. This combination is incredibly powerful and I removed Drown in Sorrow because this more than makes up for it in those matches. This combination is also valuable in games where you want to be the aggressor, such as against Control or Jeskai. Both of these cards support your midrange aggro or midrange control approach where you want to be flexible in an effective way. Fated Retribution is probably the best thing you can do in the Mardu match in games 2 and 3. The match can evolve into this really awkward control on control deck where someone is waiting for the other to play the first creature. I generally try to next level this by focusing much more on planeswalkers than creatures and having a reset button for when they get a faster start on that is incredible when you can do it at instant speed. Untapping after it into a walker is a ***** ton of momentum.
After this weekend, there are some changes I will probably be making moving forward. Mainly shaving Thoughtseize again to perhaps 2 of in the MB to see if I can get away with splitting my 4 to reduce the number of times I draw it dead. I probably will end up with something like this:
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
Planeswalker (7)
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Liliana Vess
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
4 Abzan Charm
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Bile Blight
1 Silence the Believers
1 Utter End
Sorcery (6)
2 Read the Bones
2 End Hotilities
2 Thoughtseize
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 End Hostilities
1 Fated Retribution
1 Bile Blight
2 Thoughtseize
1 Silence the Belivers
1 Murderous Cut
2 Back to Nature
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Utter End
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Something else I may start considering is just moving Elspeth to the SB in favor of Nissa, Worldwaker. I am not entirely sure on this adjustment just yet though.
But those are my current thoughts on the format in general, as well as Abzan Midrange moving forward.
Why do you say that the Tormentor won't stop the Rider? The Rider doesn't have first strike.
Why do you have to worry about the Gryff? The Hydra isn't an ETB ability.
Not being picky to you guys.. just feel like I'm missing something obvious.
Kamahl, I like where the current deck of yours is going. Borderiline Superfriends. Keep us posted on match progress. I feel that aggro good be an issue game 1. As in Boss Sligh, Rabble red etc. I feel some sort of drown in sorrow, more bile blight may be necessary in the 75. Havent tested it though.
This should be a favorable matchup for us. You mentioned the best strategy yourself: Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow. My maindeck spell suite is 3 Thoughtseize, 2 Bile Blight, 3 Abzan Charm, 3 Hero's Downfall, and 2 Utter End, with another 1 of each of the instants in the SB. In Game 1, I will happily play an early Thoughtseize to nab a Rabblemaster or Mantis Rider, then destroy the next creature or two that they play. Rabblemaster is absolutely a priority target for your removal.
If I'm short on removal, I'll play creatures whenever I can. The control stance is best, but always spend your mana as efficiently as possible; don't be afraid to play a Fleecemane Lion T2 if you lack Bile Blight -- let them burn it if they want; that's another turn they didn't play Rabblemaster. Likewise, it's better to play your Courser to block Rabblemaster than it is to do nothing.
Most important vs the faster decks (and everyone, really) is the clean development and use of your mana base. You want to be sure you can cast your spells when you want them (see mana base #'s later in this post), and to do something each turn, either posing a problem for the opponent or answering one of theirs. Abzan as access to cards that do both VERY well.
Of course a 7-drop is good; the question is do we need it in Abzan, or does it just get in the way during the early game while providing unneeded wincons later? If we get to a 7 -mana board state, we should be winning anyway.
With 4 Caryatids and 25 land, you're one short of a half-mana deck. Think a lot about how that affects your late-game topdecks.
Your early mana issues are certainly solved by Caryadid, but there are other options. Your lands provide only 15 B sources, and if you bumped that to 17-19, you'd find early BB much more consistently. Basically, 17 sources gives you about an 80% chance of having two of them by T2 and 85% T3; 19 sources bumps that to 85% and 90%, respectively.
Once you have BB more consistently on T2-3, Bile Blight will fit much more effetively into your removal tempo, which should help you a lot with the matchups you're struggling in. On that note, I firmly believe you need at LEAST two Bile Blight in the main; nearly every prominent deck in the meta runs plenty of juicy targets, and it's at worst a decent combat trick.
IMPORTANT: Genesis Hydra does NOT dodge Disdainful Stroke: when the card is on the stack, X counts towards the Converted Mana Cost. Still, it's a good card -- the search trigger is a "WHEN YOU PLAY" ability (not ETB as you noted), so it gets around counterspells and Hushwing Gryff. (Again, though, do we need to go this big to win?)
Your build certainly looks fun; a lot like G/x/x Monsters, but with better removal. If you're having trouble with more aggressive-style decks, though, you have to ask if you're devoting too much to that strategy, or if you want to make better use of the other tools at our disposal.
Cheers!
OK, but the bigger point is still valid: we don't need to be ramping up to 7-mana spells to win with Abzan. The ramp deck spends cards to GET to 7 mana, while one that runs a tighter curve uses those card slots to play more threats and/or answers.
Hey guys, this is Alex Lien. I got top 4 of scg open at Oakland today. My list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=75616
The doomwake giant, while mediocre in testing, was amazing for me the entire tournament. No one played around them, and in addition to helping against two difficult to beat cards (Hornet Queen and Elspeth) it also allows your guys to push through damage and eats mana dorks and aggro dudes. Siege Rhino is pretty awful in the mirror when compared to either Polukranos or Reaper of the Wilds, so I originally had one in the maindeck and one in the sideboard. I upped the count to respect Jeskai Tempo, which I thought would be wildly popular but was basically a no-show at the tournament. Whip of Erebos is much better than Sorin in the matchups where you want him, namely agaist Jeskai. Sorin might gain some life, but he ultimately dies to a burn spell. Whip just wins the game. In the mirror neither are particularly good but at least whip doesn't become rhino food. Sorin is better when you have total board dominance, but that's not a situation to plan for. Hornet Queen is absurd in any midrange mirror, and I don't really know why it hasn't caught on. Most Abzan decks don't maindeck a way to deal with it, and those that do usually only have one out. Plus what are they going to do if they know about it? Board in Drown in Sorrow that hits literally nothing else in the deck?
If there are any questions I'd be happy to answer them. Suggestions are welcome!
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How did 1 Thoughtseize work out for you?
In what situations did you bring in the other 3?
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Congrats on your solid finish. You say thoughtseize should be boarded in against Jeskai Tempo, but I test against it alot, and I find it somewhat lackluster. Often times you are removing a burn spell and while it feels like saving yourself 1-2 damage, in reality you are allowing them to more easily burn you out by dealing yourself damage. I get burned out by jeskai -much- more often when I draw thoughtseize and play it than not. In fact I side it out the first chance I get against Jeskai. I'm interested to hear your reasons why you feel it is good against them, other than the fact that they still have cards in hand in the mid-late game.
I have 3 Thoughtseize maindeck right now, and I am seriously considering moving them to sideboard because as you say, the meta right now is almost solely midrange. Having said that, I do agree with you that it is almost necessary to have atleast 3 in the 75 somewhere, but I'm thinking more and more that it doesn't belong in the main ATM.
I played against you that last game at GoB Friday night. It was the mirror. I learned a lot and I guess I just wanted to break down my experience and see what you think about some particular cards and matchups. I tried to split up paragraphs by cards and realized I wrote a lot as I also wanted to get my thoughts down. I don't mean to impose on your time so thank you for reading and I hope anything sticks out as intersting!
First, how did you like fleecemane lion? Did you like it over Rakshasha Deathdealer? I loved Deathdealer whenever it came out of the board. Amazing against U/B control and against decks with Disdainful Stroke and pumping makes it a 4/4 with regen option most of the time. The problem I see is that it can be targeted and exiled.
In that vein, how did Reaper of the Wild? I loved the card in theory and if it worked well for you I will probably start including it.
I love the singleton Pharika, God of Affliction and was one of the things I thought about including but didn't own one. Did you ever get devotion for it? I think it's great that you can use it in response to opponent's Whip of Erebos. Did you ever use it that way and do you think the deathtouch token that they get is relevant? Btw, Doomwake Giant is an obvious inclusion with Pharika and when you used it that night it was just an awesome instant speed interaction that deserves the spots in the deck. Did you play/have any trouble with opposing Whip decks? My singleton Anafenza, the Foremost was great against Disdainful Stroke and while easy to kill, was a relvenat 4/4 body in the matchups that it came in on. If Whip becomes a thing, a singleton of each could deal with both creatures entering and creatures already in the 'yard.
I'd throw my hat in the 0-1 Thoughtseize MB with 4 in the 75 for sure. You said it all. But I guess now we get to the contentious part of the whole thing. Do you join Hornet Queen or beat it? I certainly got housed by it when it got played against me, and the Whip is really a dirty interaction. That being said, I will be trying to beat that interaction in particular as it is the only one that I really felt blew me out of the water. I think cards like Bile Blight and Hushwing Gryff could be real answers that interact favorably in other situations. I guess this is a big one that I'll be testing out because the 7 mana is scary and congratulations on reading the meta correctly with that, it clearly paid off this weekend.
I know we had a bit of a conversation about Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and I did like it when it came out. It's weakness is that it whiffed one time when the board was empty and the opponent just Hero's Downfall. That was only once, though, and I think now that I'm off the control plan (As an aside, the control plan was not right. The threat route is the way to go and I think I went that way because I used the removal as a crutch for my lack of playtesting and weak play), it will not miss as much and I do think you'd find it hit something a lot in your deck. It's definitely powerful and worth testing I think.
On the other planeswalker side, I agree that Sorin, Solemn Visitor is definitely not as good as Whip can be and I always thought he was lackluster. Unless Whip starts getting a lot of hate, Sorin might not be the right call. I'll probably 1/1 split until GP San Antonio to see which one I like more.
I noticed you didn't run End Hostilities or Duneblast. How did that go? Did you miss them at all?
From my end, the only things I really can add is that Read the Bones is suuuuuper powerful. I can't really see it more than 1 in 75, but it's never bad. I really think it needs a spot. The only other thing I saw that I liked a lot (well, not at the time because I was playing against it) was Erebos, God of the Dead. The interaction with Whip is crazy, not to mention both of his abilities are very relevant.
Edit: Also of note: Liliana Vess tutor two turns in a row is nothing to sneeze at. The discard was pretty useless in the tope deck war and it seemed like making a control player discard a drop from their sea of cards in hand. Honestly, the ultimate is tempting, but the +1 isn't worth it. Like I said, two for on tutor or eats a downfall or burn or something. S'good.
Edit 2: Because I wanted to get a test list up while I was still fresh and that I can start working on tomorrow, I put this together:
2 Rakshasha Deathdealer
1 Fleecemane Lion
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Siege Rhino
1 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Wingmate Roc
Spells 12
1 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Abzan Charm
1 Read the Bones
2 Utter End
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Liliana Vess
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Elspeth, Sun's Chamption
Lands
24 Lands
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Hornet Queen
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Erase
4 Thoughtseize
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
2 Drown in Sorrow
3 Bile Blight
If Sorin fails, probably MB the Queen and SB another Whip. I like the idea of 4 Blight in the 75, but may drop 1 to add a Reaper if you found them useful, which would also make me do a 3/2 split with Rhino/Reaper. That said, I think Rhino is so good, did you miss him with only 3 in the deck? Also if Liliana and Ajani don't work out, they would probably be replaced by some more Hornet Queens in the 75 if I decide to keep going that route.
Any side boarding tips vs jeskai and temur? Counter heavy builds can be troublesome for me. I know you battled temur in the top 8. At any time did you board out doomwake giant and pharika?
How do you feel about reaper of the wilds now? Any changes to the number? I think I'm just so hooked on rhino, tough dropping the numbers. Speaking of numbers, would you keep the 2 Mystics?
As mentioned before thoughts on end hostilities and duneblast being absent from your board?
Congrats making it so far with a unique list!
Thoughtseize is the best way to beat heavy counter decks, which is the main reason I bring in Seize against Jeskai, btw. Their board plain is often to bring in slow expensive spells (Elspeth, Dragon, End Hostilities) and just counter all the spells that matter (Rhino, Sorin, Whip). Since they always have cards in hand, even if they don't have one of those spells Seize is still a bad Healing Salve against Jeskai Charm and Stoke, which I'm not too unhappy with in this matchup. The information is vital though, since if you know they dont have Hushwing Gryff or a counterspell you want to slam Sorin/Whip/Rhino asap and if they have multiple Disdainful Strokes then you can play around them by playing cheaper spells like Courser of Kruphix or Fleecemane Lion.
It was especially effective against the Temur deck I played against in top 8 since his deck was short on threats. He had a basic combo of threat + counterspell backup, so I could either taking his last threat and making him do nothing or by taking his counterspell and slamming a reaper or a rhino. Again, the information of the counterspell's existence and which ones to play around is very important. Even if you dont draw sieze, watch for his mana. Why did he play Polukranos on turn 4 with a rattleclaw mystic untapped? He could have played it turn 3. Be wary when they pass with 3 mana up representing Charm.
The problem with Rhino is that to most people it looks all fine because it's always at least a 4 mana 4/5, but in around 70% of my matches when I drew it I was wondering why I did not replace it with reaper. Life totals do not matter in a midrange mirror. Rhino stalls are common, and reaper just breaks that wide open. Of course in that 30% I was very happy to draw it and would have been in a far far worse situation if it were a reaper. Against aggressive decks where life totals actually matter, the 3 life is a godsend. That being said, in those matchups reaper is also quite good since a 4 mana 4/5 that scrys you into answers pairs well against their cheaper weaker guys. So I might just go up on total # of 4-drops by moving the reaper into the mainboard, since it came in every round anyway. Elvish Mystic is important to this plan, since dork into turn 3 4-drop is sweet, if not sweeter than turn 3 courser + land off the top. Also, I might be biased since I love Llanowar Elves and all of its clones.
In retrospect, I'm wishing I had an End Hostilities somewhere in the 75. There were a lot of places where that would have been very good, mostly when my opponents tried to get aggressive with their removal in a board stall to push in damage. Duneblast I'm convinced is just a worse Hornet Queen. I don't think it can be better than 7 mana In Garruk's Wake that can also attack for damage and get whipped back.
Doomwake Giant was never boarded out. It was amazing, and the look of surprise on my opponents' faces when an Abzan player slammed it was unreal. You know that feeling when you get them with the +1/+1 counters mode on Abzan Charm? Well this is 100x better. Heck there was one opponent who called my Abzan Charm bluff when I had 4 mana up, then called it again when I had 5...(hint: Giant costs 5). Other uses include eating a polukranos with Whip triggering Constellation, killing multiple soldiers against Jeskai Heroic Combo (Congratulations to Ivan Jen for winning the open with an innovative list!), and eating two elvish mystics against Temur. Pharika, on the other hand, is very bad in any matchup where your life total is being pressured. I'm considering moving her to the board to trade for reaper, but in the games where she is good she's the best card in the deck bar hornet queen (And sometimes better since she survives wraths). She was turned on in around three of my games where she becomes a fleecemane lion that can block when they swing back.
I actually haven't tested Deathdealer, but I like them a lot. My friend convinced me that Lion was better in the matchups where I needed them, against aggressive decks. plus Deathdealer doesn't pair well with the maindeck drown in dorrow.
I haven't tested Ajani because it feels like a very weak Elspeth to me. Both take over the game if left unchecked, but Elspeth also protects herself from harm, leaving the only possible answer to her as Wingmate Roc and Hero's Downfall. Same issue with Liliana and with Sorin. They don't properly guard themselves in the mirror so they lose quite quickly to multiple rhinos.
I did test Read the bones a long time ago, and I felt like I would rather have Erebos, God of the Dead. In the grindy attrition games I would rather cast read the bones every turn than just once, and that's what Erebos does. Ultimately though, I feel like my deck is well enough set up for these matchups that I don't need more than 4 draw spells, but I could be wrong here.
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I'll be testing the planeswalkers out and taking note of which matchups they actively hurt me and decide before GP SA. I'm going to test out Erebos to see if I like him with Whip as I do think the two can work well together. I'd really only board him in the mirror, possibly against control, but i'm not that worried about them gaining life, so probably only the mirror. I could definitely see Pharika as SB tech instead of MB, btw. Like you said, can't see it that useful in non-midrange matchups.
Congratulations on top 4!
3 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Abzan Charm
2 Utter End
25 lands
1 Thoughtseize
1 Bile Blight
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Read the Bones
2 End Hostilities
1 Liliana Vess
1 Murderous Cut
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Duneblast
I have not yet computed the manabase, but it will most likely have 4 Sandsteppe Citadel, 4 Windswept Heath, 4-5 Forest/Plains to fetch, and an Urborg. So that's 13-14 of the 25 done, the rest will be some combination of scrylands and painlands.
I'm a fan of the Bile Blight MD, mainly because it just seems like a card with many valuable targets right now. You almost always hit something with G1. And, in the case that it doesn't, I guess it can function as a combat trick to help your Rhino win combat.
I like Kamahl's move of doing a 3/1 split at the 3-drop slot with Courser and Brimaz. Courser's main function is really for that land-of-the-top advantage, letting you dig into threats while giving you mana. The lifegain is sweet, but 1 in play is usually enough. And, of course, Brimaz works REALLY well with Sorin and that is something I'd love to try.
I also like the suggestion on Read the Bones turning into an Erebos, as well as on Reaper of the Wilds. Doomwake Giant was in my original Abzan list and is always in the running for a slot, particularly when I know that lots of people are playing Hornet Queen.
Not sure about Fleecemane. I put it there mainly to have something else to do on Turn 2, and it's at least better than topdecking a Caryatid. Is Fleecemane still okay to play with? I may be testing something you guys already have notes on, might as well ask.
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
2 Doomwake Giant
3 Soul of Theros
3 Hornet Queen
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
Sorcery (2)
2 Commune with the Gods
3 Murderous Cut
Artifact (3)
3 Whip of Erebos
Enchantment (2)
2 Banishing Light
Land (23)
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Plains
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Windswept Heath
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Suspension Field
3 Thoughtseize
3 Drown in Sorrow
4 Fleecemane Lion
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Utter End
As a BG constellation player myself, I'm thinking about adding white and trying out this version at SCG Columbus.
I played against the deck last night and went 1-1 where the guy rage quit (or just had to go, I like rage quit more lol) after I used Abzan Charm to pump my two sylvan caryatids to take out his attacking Akroan Crusader and another token (I normally wouldn't block a Prowess dude unless I was ready to lose whatever I blocked with). I don't think he played around the charm and lost a big part of his plan with that. Even if you can get them to use a God's Willing or some other Heroic/Prowess enabler, it can prevent them from using it when they want to combo off/do a bunch of damage with prowess. The deck has many cantrips that work with the plan, so unlike normal aggro, it is hardly ever in full top deck mode, always having a few cards in hand. Retraction Helix is also used offensively to bounce a courser of kruphix before attacks to keep bashing in. I don't think I kept anything higher than 4cmc post board. Elspeth, Sun's Champion may theoretically stabilize with tokens, but that's only if you can get there, and a lot of times I don't want to use caryatids for mana so I can block.
I am usually very busy being a teacher and tutoring after school, but I've been trying to get at least one match in every day. If I come across anything cool I'll keep adding my match notes. Felt this one was noteworthy because it beat our comrade at SCG Oakland (well, don't know if actually BEAT him, but did better), and I could see it being a muuuuch more resilient Ascendancy deck, which is exactly what that deck needed to be more successful.
I'd like other peoples thoughts on the deck. Brad Nelson's main complaint in his scg video was the sideboard, which he felt needed to include wraths and elspeth for devotion match ups.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=12176
Know thine enemy, yes, but we can also take a lot from this article and apply it to our own build and play strategies. Specifically, the section on tuning your deck really stood out as the strategy I'm trying to adopt in my Abzan build:
Now when he says Seeker of the Way, I think Fleecemane Lion or Rakshasa Deathdealer; when he says Rabblemaster, I think Brimaz. I know a lot of you are moving to more "rampy" builds, but I'm still not convinced that bigger is always better, at least in Abzan. I think if we look at our deck through this lens, it might help us find the same transformative flexibility that Mardu boasts.
Third game was great. I mulled to 5, he stayed at 7. He wasn't able to play threats in the first few turns (he might have been playing around removal or waiting for me to tap out, or he may have just been playing the control game, but he wasn't mana screwed). Card draw on Abzan Charm and siege rhino get countered early, but still not many threats and I'm managing a single Goblin Rabblemaster with a sylvan caryatid and a courser of kruphix. Then Keranos, God of Storms and the race is on. I'm forced to deal with creatures to make sure the board is empty. Had enough removal to pull it off.
Take aways: Once Keranos hits, it's pretty much a race unless you have Erase or utter end. Also, I don't know if it's the right play, but I tend to use my removal on my turn to lower the probabilities of them countering.
Yeah, I thought the 4 Fleecemane sideboard was goofy. I know the Fleecemanes won Edward the last game of the finals, but there have to be better cards for those spots. I might do what Brad says and put in Elspeth and End Hostilities.