MTG Salvation

Quote from TBuzzsaw »

Quote from immapwner »

Wingmate roc is cool, I don't think he belongs in main of the same lists as fleecemane and soldier of the pantheon though. He's definitely cool in a midrange deck, and I could see him in the board of the faster versions we have been posting as a mirror-breaker.

I was explaining about it in my midrange list, not the OP aggro one.

Oh I know I was just giving my general opinion on it.

Thought I had that maybe someone could work out the mana base for ..... Herald of Torment as your Caller of the pride replacement. No idea how to get 2 black consistently though.

Re: Rakshasa Deathdealer

Perhaps it's home is in a more black-based aggro? Instead of Soldier of the Pantheon and Sunblade Elf, you have Gnarled Scarhide, Tormented Hero and the new Gravecrawler (Bloodsoaked Hero). Herald of Torment and Master of the Feast as three-drop options. Bestow all over.

Not sure how it would fit with a curve of Soldier of the Pantheon, as to pull that off you'd need Mana Confluence OR Caves of Koilos... There'd be some hands where you draw the wrong mix of lands and it'd just be terrible.

At the moment I'm seeing two things when it comes to an aggressive Abzan shell:
- GW-based (Pantheon, Fleecemane, Brimaz, Rhino, Polukranos, etc. - similar to GW Aggro in this Standard)
- Black-based with a hint of green (Rakshasa Deathdealer, Black 1-drops, Herald of Torment, Polukranos?)

Not sure which one is better but from the looks of it both warrant some testing, at least.

Here's a list I've come up with. Kinda waiting to see the charm but basically board is setup to come into a control deck

Anyone else a little annoyed that the Abzan charm is taking so long to get spoiled ? Also only 2 rares with outlast so far a bad 1 drop that's bumped cause of limited power and an intro rare.

Also , toying around with the idea of moving heavier black and dropping the Sunblade Elfs to 2 and bumping the Deathdealers to a 4 of.... Threatening the Courser/Sylvan on a turn 3 swing all alone is a big deal, and he has similar advantages if the game goes late in that if you get land flooded he gets bigger and survives most removal.

Also heavier move to black allows Herald of Torment a better chance at being casted/bestowed.

I'll know in a few days if this whole thing will work or not when I can test with the full Set

Quote from Sephyro »

I've been pondering with a creature based midrange/aggro variant that uses the ascendancy to its best:

jundimastah's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Lands 21 4x Caves of Koilos 4x llanowar wastes 4x Windswept Heath 2x Swamp 3x Plains 1x Forest 3x Sandsteppe Citadel Creatures 26 4x Bloodsoaked Champion 4x Soldier of the Pantheon 3x Fleecemane Lion 4x Mardu Skullhunter 3x Grim Haruspex 2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos 3x Anafenza, the Foremost 3x Siege Rhino	Enchantments 4 4x Abzan Ascendancy Other 9 3x Banishing Light 4x Thoughtseize 2x Utter End	SideBoard 3x back to nature 3x Suspension Field 2x Devouring Light 1x Revoke Existence 2x Deicide 2x Hushwing Gryff

Maybe:
Herald of Anafenza
Ainok Bond-Kin]

Your curving out at 4cmc and you have no mana dorks. I wanna say drop two ascendancy and go up to 23 Lands or at least 22

I like the looks of this list but I do worry about the aggro matchup a bit. In current junk decks, we have cards like Blood Baron of Vizkopa to help stabilize. I guess this version does have rhino and potentially the roc to help get that incremental life gain but I'm not sure how resilient these threats will be.

The deck's early game seems somewhat suspect- current junk decks have a lot of tools to get out of the early game (abrupt decay, doom blade, etc.) and with the shift in the removal package (more 4 cmc removal, less 2 cmc removal), I'd be curious to see how differently the early game plays out.

I think that perhaps the roc isn't ideal as I don't know how consistently we will be able to get double white on turn 5- I see the deck as a mostly black-green base with a very significant white splash. Perhaps there is a better option for a 5 drop so that the deck doesn't have to run as many double mana requirements? I guess we'll see.

Charm seems to be fine in the deck though. Maybe a Sorin would also be OK as it helps stabilize and acts as a threat on its own?

Really love how the Charm takes over for Sign in Blood. I was really wondering what numbers of SiB or Read the Bones I wanted to run, even though I really didn't like either one too much. For early removal, I've been a big fan Bile Blight for a while now, especially now that I think we're going to see a lot more Rabble decks in the near future.

I'm still in love with Ajani, Mentor of Heroes. He did so much work for me recently. Counters on an wurm token was a common occurance, and now I get to do the same with Siege Rhino. Even better this time around now that I don't have to worry about the nonbo with Advent of the Wurm when I go digging with him.

Here's my list so far.. still hoping for a better Thune replacement other than the Roc. It's the only card I'm really unsure of now.



Sideboard will have Thoughseizes and Mistcutters as usual, and everything else really kind of depends on what unfolds.

My god, so many good black cards, Grim Haruspex, gnarled scarhide, bloodsoaked hero, rakshasa deathdealer, herald of torment. And so many good white cards, soldier of the pantheon, brimaz, fleecemane lion.
There's only so much fixing to go around, I'm thinking about dropping soldier, sunblade, fleecemane, and brimaz from my list, am I crazy?
The biggest problem I see is that the black cards are really powerful, but a lot of them aren't powerful in the p/t department and are powerful based on their ability, herald gives flying and +3/+3, bloodsoaked comes back, Grim Haruspex draws cards. You'll be far more open to anger of the gods going in this direction, and your creatures aren't quite as good on their own. Fleecemane can attack into a courser and is unbeatable turn 5 on, soldier gets through a lot of stuff, brimaz survies anger and is an army in a can.
Our duals look pretty good, confluence, caves, wastes, heath. BUT, heath also requires us to play plains and forest, so a heavy black version might want to drop heath, which seems weird that you'd get rid of one of your only duals.

This is hard.
The white cards are probably better, but I tested rakshasa yesterday and it's re-dic-u-lous. But it was hard to be able to activate it 3 times because I didn't have enough black sources. I want to put in an urborg, and herald is just stupid so I want to play like 3 of them. This is where deckbuilding becomes hard.

Do you guys think the charm should be our only removal spell? what do you think the split should be on them and the other non-creature spells?
2 ulcerate and 2 charm with no utter end sound good?

I'm starting to think control decks are going to be hated out the more and more I see the reveals. With all the creature decks that no doubt are going to be around, I had another crazy idea: Why not try what Esper Humans did early this year? Replace Xathrid Necromancer with Abzan Ascendency and Athreos, God of Passage, and use End Hostilities as a board wipe.




It still feels like it's missing something though, and it's still a working idea for another route we can go.

Quote from TBuzzsaw »

I'm starting to think control decks are going to be hated out the more and more I see the reveals. With all the creature decks that no doubt are going to be around, I had another crazy idea: Why not try what Esper Humans did early this year? Replace Xathrid Necromancer with Abzan Ascendency and Athreos, God of Passage, and use End Hostilities as a board wipe.

immapwner's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Creatures 4 Soldier of the Pantheon 4 Bloodstained Brave 4 Sylvan Caryatid 4 Fleecemace Lion 2 Anafenza, The Foremost 2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos 2 Athreos, God of Passage 3 Siege Rhino	Spells 1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor 3 Azban Ascendancy 2 Whip of Erebos 3 End Hostilities 2 Abzan Charm Lands 4 Mana Confluence 2 Windswept Heath 4 Sandsteppe Citadel 4 Llanowar Wastes 4 Caves of Koilos 2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth 2 Forest 2 Plains

It still feels like it's missing something though, and it's still a working idea for another route we can go.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to kill with end hostilities, it seems to me that we will just have to deal with one or two threats that are big enough to block us in, and even then there's herald of torment. Elspeth gives me the most issues right now, that and butcher of the horde (but that's just because hasty lifelink is absurd).
I also don't think we really want whip, at least not in the main, of a deck like this. We are the beatdown in most matchups and we need to just keep putting out the threats. Sorin is kind of questionable from that vantage as well, but he is a pseudo-anthem so I think he's fine.

One thing that your list made me notice though, is that it's easier to go from bloodstained brave into fleecemane than it is to go form soldier into rakshasa. since you have 3 duals that can help you with brave-lion (caves, confluence, wastes) and only 2 for soldier-rakshasa (caves and confluence). I think that's the way to build this now, and just drop the rakshasa.
Do you think the tri land is better than the temples?

Like I said, the End Hostilities thing is just an option in case of battlecruiser magic, where both sides are chalked full of creatures in stalemate. The whip is there to bring creatures back like Rhino after a board wipe you play (potential 14 life upswing).

Maybe it really isn't necessary now that we have Abzan Charm that gets rid of the big creatures we fear. I can't help but think Stormbreath is still a huge problem that warrants black removal, but our deck is full as it is.

As for Tri-land vs Scrylands, it's really hard to tell right now. If you're heavier on two colors, then I think Scrylands are better.

Quote from TBuzzsaw »

Like I said, the End Hostilities thing is just an option in case of battlecruiser magic, where both sides are chalked full of creatures in stalemate. The whip is there to bring creatures back like Rhino after a board wipe you play (potential 14 life upswing).

Maybe it really isn't necessary now that we have Abzan Charm that gets rid of the big creatures we fear. I can't help but think Stormbreath is still a huge problem that warrants black removal, but our deck is full as it is.

As for Tri-land vs Scrylands, it's really hard to tell right now. If you're heavier on two colors, then I think Scrylands are better.

I agree sometimes the games just come to down to racing a stormbreath, but we also need to kill walkers, Elspeth is horrendous for us, so I think we really need to try to fit downfalls in here.
I've been playing with the charm abit, 2 matches now, and so far I haven't been impressed. The fact that it can't kill walkers, coursers, or anything that isn't a fatty kinda sucks. the sign in blood ability is pretty sick, but the +1/+1 ability so far hasn't been relevant. Since the deck is already tight on spots (I have 12 spots for non-creature spells) I'm not sure it's good enough to run, I'd rather have downfall or utter end in it's spot, hell ulcerate has been better since it's 1 mana.

Quote from Shodai »

Modifying my list.

TBuzzsaw's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4 Fleecemane Lion 4 Courser of Kruphix 3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos 4 Siege Rhino 2 Wingmate Roc 2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor 2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion	4 Thoughtseize 3 Bile Blight 4 Hero's Downfall 2 Abzan Charm 2 Utter End 4 Windswept Heath 4 Temple of Silence 4 Temple of Malady 3 Llanowar Wastes 3 Caves of Koilos 3 Forest 3 Plains

I feel like I have to pick between Fleecemane Lion and Caryatid, I can't fit them both in there.

Fleecemane Lion into Brimaz into Sorin (who works great with Vigilance creatures) is a pretty fearsome curve.

I actually really like this list, but if you want to fit Caryatid in, I would drop some numbers of removal. It seems like overkill right now. Maybe -1 Bile, -1 Downfall, -1 End, -1 Courser. I feel dropping one Courser may be okay since the 3 drop slot is really full.

I think it's a card that will need a few weeks to determine if it's needed mainboard. I would definitely sideboard it against midrange monster decks.

I feel like there is definitely a place out there for a long-game Abzan strategy, using 4x Abzan Ascendancy and the new huge elephant (Ivorytusk Fortress) that lets all your beaters untap at every turn, the curve topping out at a 1x or 2x Duneblast/End Hostilities. The synergy with Abzan Ascendancy is real. Having two or more Ascendancies and a board full of creatures after a field wipe annihilates the opposing field, leaving you with a new army of flyers, maybe even doubling or tripling the number of creatures under your control. In the meantime you can control the board while you ramp on up with Caryatids, Mystics, and Coursers, using cards like Silence the Believers to keep down other strategies while you build up. Cards like Nissa, Worldwaker and even Garruk, Apex Predator can fit in here somewhere, it's just a matter of finding out how well you can ramp and survive to the long game.

Some ideas for aggressive Abzan Shells and a midrange one (I have NOT yet tested these, if anyone knows where I can test online right now do tell):



Aggressive shell, taking advantage of Ainok Bond-Kin and +1/+1 counters. Ajani and Abzan Charm help you get there, and Fleecemane later in the game.. Heir of the Wilds is something I want to try out - I think that in the new Standard, a successful aggressive deck should ALWAYS be able to punch through Sylvan Caryatid/Courser of Kruphix - and this does that. Anafenza, Siege Rhino, Ajani (-2, +1 can with a Lion/Brimaz in play) and Sorin can help trigger Ferocious, hell Bond-Kin + Heir with a counter on it means you don't even need ferocious. Fleecemane, Brimaz, Anafenza and Siege Rhino fill out a pretty mean curve of threats.

I want to fit an Abzan Ascendancy or two somewhere there, hell even Athreos, something to work on. You could even fit a Polukranos or two there, just to help trigger Heir of the Wilds. Card reminds me so much of Wren's Run Vanquisher, at least the closest thing we have to it.

The mana base can be made a little less painful if there's another 1-drop, ideally white or green in place of the new Gravecrawler. I'm not too hot on Sunblade Elf in a format without Shocklands and one that will (most likely) play less basic lands.

More black-based:



Basically the monoblack aggro shell, with Rakshasa Deathdealer, Siege Rhino and Sorin. I don't know if Ruthless Ripper can work in constructed, but he seems worth trying. There's a lot of Bestow going on here because I'm used to playing against Supreme Verdict, but in a format with End Hostilities the angle of attack may need to change. Master of the Feast is another option.



Plain old midrange. Given the colors we are in I think you need to play 4 Hero's Downfall - it is the only card that can answer Stormbreath Dragon as is (no more Doom Blade or Ultimate Price, but if they spoil something similar in place then it can go in the deck). Abzan Charm comes in as a versatile card draw/removal spell. Maybe Murderous Cut can fit here as a 1/2-of? Fetchlands, Thoughtseize and removal spells should help you fill the yard up enough. Otherwise, value creatures and threatening walkers, it's plain old boring midrange. You can even fit Drown in Sorrow maindeck as a hedge against aggressive strategies - Black Aggro and Rabble Red (or some form of RDW) still have the tools come KTK, and most of their creatures are X/2.

What about an abzan constellation deck? We have cord for some eidolon tutoring and banishing light. Is back to nature just to much of a blowout?

This is solidly a midrange deck, but in early testing, I've liked it quite a lot. It takes a lot of inspiration/deckbuilding ques from Pat Chapin's block PT winning deck.



I haven't really worked on the SB yet, but those are the cards on my radar. A few cards that I'm toying with:

Nissa, Worldwaker: For a while I was running 3 of these, and she just didn't quite do enough. This list is definitely slower/more controlly than the jund planeswalker lists of old standard, so it is harder to leverage her abilities. You usually want to play her on 6 mana, and i think that Elspeth, Sun's Champion is probably just better, because both her + and - can help stabilize against unfavorable board states.

Sorin, Solemn Visitor: With caryatid on 2, this deck really wants power 4s to be ramping into. Unfortunately, I don't really think this is where this deck wants to be. Sorin is only really good when you can really leverage his +, and this deck doesn't, except to win more. When you are behind, the token is ok, but it really sucks going to 2 just to make a chump blocker.

Reaper of the Wilds: My quest to find a 4 to ramp into led to me trying out this card, and so far I've been decently impressed. It is a decent attacker on its own, fairly resilient, and notably trades with both whatever fatty Temur is playing, and with Prognostic Sphinx while attacking, which can be a problem for this deck.

Ajani, Mentor of Heroes: I've been extremely impressed with this card so far. I think the format is slowing down enough to where this pw really shines. If you haven't tried him yet in your midrange builds, I highly recommend it.

Garruk, Apex Predator: I love this card, and have been playing it as a fun of in my jund walkers lists, and will likely be trying it here. 7 mana is a lot, but you get what you paid for.

Drown in Sorrow: This card is going to be extremely important to have in your sideboard, likely atleast as a 3 of. It looks like all the good removal in this format is going to be either extremely situational (white-based) or 3+mana. Drown is going to be needed to fight all the Goblin Rabblemaster or Bloodstained Bravedecks.

Anafenza, the Foremost: The triggered ability is decent, the gy hate has been relevant more than expected (vs delve and Bloodstained Brave) and being able to attack through Courser is also nice. Its either this or Brimaz, King of Oreskos in this slot, and I'm not sure which is better.

Fleecemane Lion: This may seem like an odd choice in a midrange deck, but I've really liked it so far. A 3/3 for 2 is bigger than what most decks are doing t1-3, and it is a card that can also be good late.

Anyways, this is definitely the archetype/colors that I'm going to be playing for a while, so any comments/advice would be appreciated.

Melissa DeTora posted what looks like a pretty solid list:

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=12046

She's missing Abzhan Charm, although I'm not completely sold with that card yet.

I kind of feel like the new format almost requires Soldier of the Pantheon in decks playing white, and it does seem like there is a lack of 1-drops in this deck (she builds around that with a full set of 12 temples). I also don't like 3 Brimaz or 4 Elspeth (or more than 2 of most legendary permanents, except for the ones that have played as expendables like Jace, Architect of Thought), because it's too much risk to draw duplicates and therefore dead cards in hand. I'm a little skeptical about not playing Elvish Mystic for the turn-1 ramp potential.

This is along the lines of what I am looking at building:


There are a few cards I would like to fit in... Sign in Blood is great card advantage and also can function as a burn spell to win the game unexpectedly. Also, Polukranos is probably too powerful to ignore.

The cards I feel are "must-have" in this deck are basically the 4 Coursers, 4 Caryatids, 2 Elspeth, and 4 Thoughtseize.

Also, with Caryatids and Mystics, can we cut below 24 lands? I'm not sure, the deck does have a few expensive spells and the removal is higher cost than we normally want. May have to test.

Shodai, I really like your list but the sideboard is just a clump of conditional removal. I think it needs some diversity beyond other removal spells. maybe more Charms and maybe something like Read the Bones?

Quote from Shodai »

Elvish Mystic is not playable in this deck since your first turn will be a tapland 80% of the time. Wasted slot. I like that Melissa's decklist is pretty close to my own.

In my version with mystics, I've swapped out 1/3 of the temples for additional pain lands to allow more reliable turn-1 plays (also important for Soldier of the Pantheon).

It's also important because I want to be able to play turn-2 Courser, Brimaz, or Anafenza.

I'm also not sure how I feel about Drown in Sorrow considering that it wipes out all of your tokens as well. I might consider a couple more Bile Blight instead.

My biggest issue with Abzan Aggro at the moment is that green brings very very little to the plate at the moment. Most of the decent things are multicolored green but as far as mono green goes there are sort of a lot of not so great choices to be made right now.

It seems odd that green just isn't really getting any mono colored love and in Theros block mostly only got midrange things.

With a few new cards being spoiled and the charm here is updated list from one I posted earlier