Jace, the Living Guildpact is a role player card which is supportive of a generally more narrow game plan and that does not entirely exist in the existing card pool. You get a certain amount of indexing power with his library manipulation, but I don't think it is powerful enough unless you have a way to start using it as a source of artificial card advantage. You are going to run into situations where you are rolling over 2 cards that are gas and having to toss 1, and it may not seem like that large of a draw back, but when you start having to pitch something like another walker, there is an incredible amount of value lost even if you are keeping another walker on top that may be more effective. Nyx Weaver is a pretty good recognition of this fact, but allowing you to pull something back in the event you have to toss gas into the yard, but let's be real... the card is just not good enough to make Jace playable in a control shell.
The decks that want Jace, the Living Guildpact are decks that are capable of using him for filtering themselves past late game trash while getting more value out of a bounce activation than simply buying a turn to stall like a Control deck would want to do. Walkers generally do not have longevity in this format and are quickly dismissed by attacks or spot removal and if spot removal is something you want in a walker, Kiora is where it should be.
The new Jace is catching a lot of hate for a reason and it will be that way until he can be used as some sort of CA engine.
Yea, I see what you mean (which is why I have "just" been testing him) though, in my current shell I w/o the Courser of Kruphix for the added "defense" I doubt i'll actually consider running him until rotation occurs.
I am a big fan of the Theros Block BUG deck, and i wanted it to work in standard too.
I have read this Thread and all the ideas and came up with that: ( I am still on the Courser path and like him as defense for a Walker, and also prefer Sphinx MB instead of Nissa )
I am not sure if Aetherspouts is a must 4of in this deck or if 3 are enough ... also my sideboard is a bit unfocused and still needs some serious help.
The drown in sorrow in the board are a nod to the spirit bond decks that are popping up right now.
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First THANKS FOR THE REPLY! Now, that said, lets get down to business 8D
Jace, the Living Guildpact has been discussed at length (partially in this thread) and it seems that Jace, Architect of Thought for the time being really is the only viable option. Not saying that, Jace, the Living Guildpact is useless -- rather -- just at the moment he's not the most viable of options. As for courser of kruphix, admittedly he is missed (slightly) in my MD now that I have detached him from my BUG deck. Though, the mana has not changed b/c he is the same cmc as Dissolve in the aspect that they both cost (3). The added life gain is kind of a big deal, and I know that there has been a few games in "testing" in which that added life gain would/could have came in handy. Ultimately though, courser of kruphix does "die to Doomblade" and Dissolve simply does not.
Prognostic sphinx, now thats a great card 8D However, until Aetherling rotates, my question is why would you choose to use prognostic sphinx over Aetherling? If its because of the "scry," then I would lean more towards replacing that spot with 2-3 Jace, Architect of Thought, but thats just me 8D As for Aetherspouts, it really is our "sweeper" and thus (imo) requires a full 4 slots in the deck. Its simply just such a powerful card that (though I realize does not live in a vacuum) will get the job done (the job you need, not the job you want) most of the time. And evolving wilds ... maybe if you were running Nissa, Worldwaker, which I will talk about in length next 8D
Nissa, Worldwaker. She honesty is such an amazingly great card right now (and prolly in the next two years). I honesty cant say enough about the sheer power level she carries with her when she hits the board. Yes, like ALL other "Walkers" she "dies to Hero's Downfall," AND, she is a cmc of (5) which normally warrants failure (among most 5 cmc "walkers"). In her situation though it simply does not, because unlike "most" "walker" she has two +1's, both of which are honestly outstanding! Her ability to "ramp" and/or create a solid creature for defense is SOOOOO GOOD! The only "downside" to running her in this type of deck (or any deck with more then one color really) is the adjusting of lands to meet what ever X requirement the player feels is needed to properly use her in Y fashion.
Now, for the SB 8D
About 1/2 way through this thread I was on the Drown in Sorrow bandwagon as well. It would seem the meta is heading in the direction of MEGA CREATURE RUSH. That said, Kamahl, the Fallen more/less put it this way, "one or the other." Which of course he was referring to running Drown in Sorrow OR, hornet nest (both of which are solid SB options no matter how you look at it). The real issue at hand is that you have a very good chance of being put into a situation in which you will have to decide if casting Drown in Sorrow is worth loosing X Sylvan Caryatid and Y hornet nest, not to mention any tokens you made with Garruk, Apex Predator. These type of decisions are what they are (in a vacuum of course) but in reality -- not something "I" enjoy having to choose. I also feel that Nylea's disciple is a little overboard if you choose to keep running courser of kruphix (which again, there is NOTHING wrong with doing because the card is great) just -- it dies -- thats all. And in this deck (BUG) it would seem that "tempo" is REALLY important to the player playing it. I am curious though, you are running (0) counter-spells in the MD (which again, nothing wrong with that) however, you are running a (4) of Negate in the SB -- any explanation as to the (#) of and why?
All and all, I dont see a "problem" with your "brew," however just that you may run into some choices (with your current build) which may leave you with a bad taste in your mouth at the end of the game.
jace is something i want to test for myself, cause in a game, i havent seen him yet. Or the game was done when he showed up. He is probably not the right choice, but i want to test him some more before i replace him with Nissa.
I think courser is more relevant right now than dissolve is. ( At least for me )
I dont want to go the " draw go " route, which is why i cut dissolve. i really want to put something on the table on turn 3, which is in this case courser or ashiok.
I chose Sphinx over Aetherling because of two things. First: Sphinx comes down faster, its also hard to remove ( not as hard as aetherling, but still ) and gives me a flying blocker.
Second: Aetherling is at least a 7 mana Spell, which is occupied by Garruk in my deck. Plain and simple.
Btw, why should i lose Caryatid or Garruk tokens to drown in sorrow ? Its only -2/-2 not -3/-3.
Nyleas Disciple is for the burn matchups, where courser is simple not enough most of the time. Skullcrack is a real card, and i need as much lifegain as possible, and the options are slim.
Playset of negate is for control and burn. I really hate that boros burn
I have been playing UBG since the PT and there is definitely a reason you have not seen a port of it to Standard. The deck lacks efficient ways to power through bad draws or recover from a board in which you have lost control. I have tried options like Whelming Wave, AEtherize, and Extinguish All Hope and the blue sweeps were not really sweeps. An Aggro deck could just dump their entire hand in a single turn again and alpha strike back at you. Extinguish All Hope was better than the blue options, but had the issue of leaving behind random things and it could sometimes just not really pay off unless you had multiple Courser of Kruphix in play. AEtherspouts really works to close the gaps here, by preventing an aggro player from having the option to alpha strike back at you the following turn and it is a card that people have to play around, much differently than Supreme Verdict. In most cases, if a player is putting their opponent on a Verdict play, they will just turn guys sideways maximizing combat. With AEtherspouts being an instant, your opponent tries to maximize combat by attacking with fewer creatures in order to prevent a blow out. This really let's the control player maximize combat by getting a bit more bang for their buck on spot removal and allows you to hold on to AEtherspouts for additional turns which let's you leverage your sweeper in a way Supreme Verdict will never allow you to do.
Your uncertainty about having 3 or 4 is really only going to be relieved when M15 hits and we can see the speed of the format. I would say 4 is the right count regardless, but the fact that you can leverage it for a period of time may mean you do not need the 4th copy.
Courser is a card that actually dies more than you would think, in the Standard format and tends to live longer in decks like RG Monsters and Jund Monsters, because your opponent is constantly applying bigger threats to the board that ultimately matter more than Courser of Kruphix. UBG does not have many creatures that will ultimately matter more than Courser. You could play Polukranos, but the threat density just is not there. You dont have any Stormbreath Dragons, Domri Rade, Xenagos, the Reveler or Ruric Thar, the Unbowed to overload removal. Having a bumch of walkers may seem like you are backing it with some threat density, but you don't get to have an aggressive curve with them to the point that creatures are not going to be able to knock them out as you roll them onto the battlefield. In Block, there is less removal for Courser, so you are free to do more work with it making it a huge player. I am of the opinion that this is another reason the block lists have not seen a successful port to Standard, Courser of Kruphix in block is an entirely different thing than it is in Standard and while it is good in Standard, it is no better than a fair number of other creatures in the format.
The SB is where you really need to pick your battles, AEtherspouts pick up a lot of slack with your aggro matches and Courser of Kruphix helps makes these matches even easier, which means you can be a little lighter on anti-aggro slots in the SB. I would avoid running Drown in Sorrow alongside Hornet Nest, I have talked about the reasoning behind this a few times and it was somewhat reiterated above. With as much anti-aggro support as you have, even with the removal of Drown in Sorrow, I think you could just skip Nylea's Disciple. You don't want to be over-sideboarding. It is going to have to take some convincing on Liliana Vess in the board. Tutoring things up is cool, and repeated discard is cool - but Memory Adept is probably what you are looking for. Repeated Discard is almost useless against aggro decks and probably will not be repeat anyways, and tutoring in a slow match isn't as good as a well timed Jace, Memory Adept which can just end the game on resolution.
I like Mistcutter out of the board in situations where you are not really running any MB creatures. If you are in green and running MB creatures, your opponent is going to be leaving in Verdicts and Courser does not really push them to use those very quickly. I feel like you will be put in more situations where Mistcutter seems like a good play and ends up being a terrible one simply because your opponent was anticipating it, or decided to leave in a Verdict just to get some value out of knocking out your Caryatids and Coursers. Monsters gets away with bringing him in because, once again their threat level is WAY higher than yours. It is easy for them to create opening for a Hydra to connect by overloading the board with other things until Verdict is played.
UBG in Standard, at least what I have learned from messing with it as much as I have, requires a lot of efficient min/maxing on card selection and is more than just smashing good cards together.
Yea, i've been testing the "new Jace" and he's not "all that bad" just not up to Jace, Architect of Thought standards atm. I agree with you on having something to drop on the board turn three (it kinda sucks not having something to drop on that turn) so I feel you on that. However, as I was originally running both in my MB as well (which was discussed a few pages ago) it does seem to lead one (if one draws both Courser of Kruphix and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver) feel a little awkward. Which is why I ONLY board in Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver when I am facing "control" shells. Not that they both are not GREAT third turn drops, just that when you have both -- its kinda strange you know? As for the "sorrow" yea lol! I read your reply no more then 10 minutes after I woke up, I think I was thinking it was Bile Blight in my head lol! Non-the-less though, the defense still covers hornet nest though as a one or the other.
Sylvan Caryatid is good at being an early blocker, as well as ramping, but I am at the point where I would rather have a late game cantrip and it has a bigger butt to boot. Messing with the numbers I can get up to 26 lands and be pretty content with the Wall of Mulch, I feel. Ramping into Garruk has just not really been the most impressive because while you can ramp into him, it means you still need to stabilize earlier as well and that just isn't always possible, so you feel weird with all of this mana in the late game when you didn't ramp into Garruk, Apex Predator.
I am not sure if this will really change permanently for me or not though, having a couple Caryatids to cover your late game spells with Dissolve or even AEtherspouts, is pretty solid.
I've been playing a list very similar to yours Kamahl and i have found for me at least that having a Caryatid for mana fixing in the early turns can often be a life saver. Sometimes its just that you miss a few land drops (getting suck on 4 land with 2-3 Aetherspouts in hand is super awkward), it would be nice though if there was a way of being able to ditch the Caryatids later on for some benefit but it would take a lot to convince me to drop these mana dorks. The hexproof is kinda neat too.
Hexproof is pretty irrelevant actually, the only reason it is halfway relevant is that there is no value to be had in the event it does die, and it is a X/3 that would otherwise die to Lightning Strike. Having the ability to replace itself in the face of spot removal, and dodging more red burn, is more than enough to make up for the lack of hexproof.
The only real reason I can see keeping Caryatid in and Wall of Mulch out, is for the mana fixing, which I am not entirely convinced we need, nor do we actually need the ramp. You can up the land count just fine and add in something like a 4th Abrupt Decay and play with the numbers enough to make Wall of Mulch work just fine over Sylvan Caryatid. I think the real reason you would not want to do this, is simply because you are able to play things like Jace or Kiora with mana open - sooner rather than later.
WoM has a pretty valuable ability on it and it is in some ways, similar to what Wall of Omens was for Planeswalker Control decks.
Humm...not entirely sold on dropping the Sylvan Caryatid as well from the deck. It comes in handy A LOT in the early/mid-game ur correct on that standpoint as-well-as it more/less sucks in the late game. Wall of Mulch is cool and all but, I just feel that the deck (your version more then mine) has more then enough card-draw/deck manipulation as is w/o the addition of Wall of Mulch. Now, if they were to have actually reprinted Wall of Omens or in this case Wall of Blossoms then I would be totally all for it however, Wall of Mulch is not either of those sadly.
It is less about the card draw and more about havingenabling the ability to start playing your walkers every turn after you stabilize. It is either Wall of Mulch or I am moving up to 4 Jace's Ingenuity and the latter seems much less reasonable.
So, there is no reason I should be awake. That said, I am and have been SO, here is a list I have been toying with for the past "while" and its actually performing ok. The one thing I was missing from ... I don't know, 4 variations ago was a "permanent" I can drop on the board on turn three IE Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. I also wanted to drop the "curve" down a tad bit. That said, I dropped Aetherling from the deck completely. Yes, he's the "ultimate finisher" and all that jazz, BUT with all my "walkers" who needs it right?
I also noticed I needed a "little" more card draw, so I dropped from 3x Nissa, Worldwaker down to 2x. I then upped Jace, Architect of Thought up to the 3x he should have been from the get go 8D The SB was a slight change, mainly because of the addition of the Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver to the MD. I added 2x Golgari Charm because lets me frank, everything on that card is just gravy 8P I then added a singleton Dispel for when matching against a control variant and or burn.
---edit---
and yes, i'm still debating Wall of Mulch in the deck. It's just really going to be hard to pass up on quicker "walkers" down on the board and MOST of all the mana fixing.
---edit#2---
As for Perilous Vault, I am still sold on a duo on the SB. Yes, I do have a large quantity of "permanents" BUT, when you drop it on the board it changes the whole pace of the game -- and -- not to mention if slivers become a thing....
---edit#3---
I also thought I would make note that I dropped from 10x "scry lands" down to 8x. I did this because I would/have been getting irritated with all the "come into play tapped" lands. I decided a few "pain lands" would assist in the "fixing" of this matter.
Hey, so I've read through this entire thread and have come up with my own version of BUG Walkers and would love some feedback, positive or negative; all criticism here has been pretty constructive so I'm okay with getting my choices ripped apart. That all said, here's the list:
Couple things I'd like to say about this list. One, I'm still working on the mana. Two, I think Far is an often forgotten/underrated card. Three, I'm trying out a no counterspell build, not sure if that's correct. Four, the deck could use some card draw; I was thinking maybe Divination because I'm not trying to hold my mana up for counters, although I am for removal, but it is a nice alternate three drop to Courser and is much better than Courser late in the game. Finally, I have some weird numbers of Planeswalkers due to availability; for example, I do not see myself getting any more Nissa anytime soon due to the 40 dollar pricetag. I just need to find another Kiora, and honestly, I might replace the one Nissa with the third Kiora, as I don't think she's as good in this list as she could be. Feel free to tell me that's wrong, as I could see reasons for leaving her in, even as a one-of. Again, any comments and discussion are more than welcome.
THANKS FOR THE REPLY! You are right, I COMPLETELY forgot about Far // Away lmfao! When I first looked at your list I was like...damn lol! Anyway, I hear you on the Nissa, Worldwaker lol! When she first dropped I grabbed a set because I knew she was going to blowup -- but I digress. The only changes I would make at a glance would be In Garruk's Wake. Yes, its a great "sweeper" but I feel that another AEtherspouts would do you more justice. Also, with all the "playable" artifacts cycling around right now a singleton of Putrefy is a really good idea imo, not-to-mention you can cast it with 1BG rather then 1BB. Other then that, if you are working on a budget IE Nissa, Worldwaker being replaced by Liliana Vess I see no issue with that actually, its not a bad idea at all. All and all I like your design, and GREAT catch on the Far // Away!
As for the Divination, its great and all but if you are trying for extra card draw (and you dont like holding cards in your hand) I would look into fitting maybe 2x Font of Fortunes in there someplace. Its not a bad drop on turn two, and you can choose when you want the cards at instant speed 8D
So, about 7 hours ago someone pointed out (someone being flashismyfriend) a card I had let slip my mind completely -- that card Far // Away. It really gives a GREAT set of answers to the board, AND I think its exactly what this deck needed. That said, I dropped 2x Dissolve from the deck (I enjoy the more "tapout" type of play) BUT I left two Dissolve for those "must answer spells."
Could maybe Swan Song be good for us in here? We dont REALLY care about the swan and I've always wanted to Swan Song an Abrupt Decay to get a 2/2 flash flier.
Edit: My reasoning is that we generally only want to counter something that hurts our walkers (I just thought about Brave the Elements and how much it has been a pain for me in the past).
It's 3am here and im sorry if im not making much sense.
I've been wanting to find a use for Swan Song since the first time I set eyes on it lol! I'm not ruling it out though, just have to see how this weekeng goes at the SCG (because we all know thats whats gonna shape the meta 8P).
I had Far // Away in a test list for a bit, it was cut because I only ever leave 5 mana open when I need to leave 5 mana open and the only time I need to leave 5 mana open is when I play AEtherspouts which is in situations where Far // Away isn't enough. The card is good, but it makes you durdle in a deck that does not really need to ever durdle unless it is in some fairly dire situations.
The problem with Swan Song is that in a deck that relies on spot removal and maximizing AEtherspouts, the token can do a lot of work or even end up as a 2 for 1 against you if you have to use spot removal on it. If they start swinging with just the bird token, you look really silly when you eventually just have to use a Spouts or a spot removal spell to remove a token you gave them. The card is just not good and there is a reason it is not played - it has a big draw back.
The problem with Swan Song is that in a deck that relies on spot removal and maximizing AEtherspouts, the token can do a lot of work or even end up as a 2 for 1 against you if you have to use spot removal on it. If they start swinging with just the bird token, you look really silly when you eventually just have to use a Spouts or a spot removal spell to remove a token you gave them. The card is just not good and there is a reason it is not played - it has a big draw back.
You target your own Abrupt Decay so you get the swan.
That said, I don't like it either for the reasons you've stated.
The main reason I included it was b/c imo if there was any other spell to "replace" Dissolve it would be that one. I hear what your saying though -- about keeping 5 mana open. I don't completely see the card as a "use both or dont use," I mean dont get me wrong it does not hold a candle to AEtherspouts however, as an addition I feel its not a terrible idea. As for Swan Song, i'm tracking its not that great "right now" or ever really possibly. The only time I would consider it would be post-rotation to replace Dispel, but at the same time one could just add another Negate and be fine.
The main reason I wanted to drop down to two counter-spells is b/c i'm not a BIG fan of holding up mana, i'd much rather have more "tempo" or how can I say ... be more productive? Anyway, I know that 4x Dissolve will probably end up being the "standard" for this build -- tell then -- im enjoying the Far // Away for what it is 8D
Also, kinda thinking bout dropping back to the Sylvan Caryatid, yes, the card draw from Wall of Mulch is nice mid/late game -- its just that I really do enjoy the mana fixing and dropping the "walkers" into play a turn/two sooner.
Counter magic over creature removal means you are not dead in the water against other control decks.
I hear what your saying though -- about keeping 5 mana open. I don't completely see the card as a "use both or dont use," I mean dont get me wrong it does not hold a candle to AEtherspouts however, as an addition I feel its not a terrible idea.
The card is not terrible, just incredibly clunky for a deck like this.
As for Swan Song, i'm tracking its not that great "right now" or ever really possibly. The only time I would consider it would be post-rotation to replace Dispel, but at the same time one could just add another Negate and be fine.
People have been waiting for this card to break out since we entered an enchantment block and the card was spoiled. Rotation still does not change that fact that the card puts you in a horrid trading position. I think the correct card would just be extra Negates.
The main reason I wanted to drop down to two counter-spells is b/c i'm not a BIG fan of holding up mana, i'd much rather have more "tempo" or how can I say ... be more productive? Anyway, I know that 4x Dissolve will probably end up being the "standard" for this build -- tell then -- im enjoying the Far // Away for what it is 8D
Lol, you hate leaving mana up, so you want to remove counter magic and instead run Far//Away? Casting Far//Away at sorcery speed is not the most appealing play I could think of, in fact it is pretty far from it. Like I said, the card is just clunky.
Also, kinda thinking bout dropping back to the Sylvan Caryatid, yes, the card draw from Wall of Mulch is nice mid/late game -- its just that I really do enjoy the mana fixing and dropping the "walkers" into play a turn/two sooner.
I don't know if that is correct, nor do I know if keeping WoM over Caryatid is correct. In fact, I am unsure if a 2 drop wall is correct at all, and I know I am not the only one who is game for possibly just removing these cards for other things.
EDIT
I am game to see Far//Away work if people can get it to work outside of some fringe cases. I quickly removed it because I was never having the open mana for it and instead was wasting better plays in order to get the value from it and it was not paying off.
Moved to Standard Deck Creation as per OP's request
For those who are interested in following my edits to the deck, you can find me in the thread that is located in Competitive Established where I can consolidate my thoughts a bit easier.
The decks that want Jace, the Living Guildpact are decks that are capable of using him for filtering themselves past late game trash while getting more value out of a bounce activation than simply buying a turn to stall like a Control deck would want to do. Walkers generally do not have longevity in this format and are quickly dismissed by attacks or spot removal and if spot removal is something you want in a walker, Kiora is where it should be.
The new Jace is catching a lot of hate for a reason and it will be that way until he can be used as some sort of CA engine.
I am a big fan of the Theros Block BUG deck, and i wanted it to work in standard too.
I have read this Thread and all the ideas and came up with that: ( I am still on the Courser path and like him as defense for a Walker, and also prefer Sphinx MB instead of Nissa )
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Jace, the Living Guildpact
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 courser of kruphix
2 prognostic sphinx
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Aetherspouts
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Jace's Ingenuity
1 unravel the aether
4 thoughtsize
3 Llanlower Wastes
3 Yavimaya Coast
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Mystery
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 island
1 evolving wilds
1 Abrupt Decay
4 negate
2 mistcutter hydra
1 Nylea's disciple
2 drown in sorrow
3 hornet nest
1 liliana vess
1 unravel the aether
I am not sure if Aetherspouts is a must 4of in this deck or if 3 are enough ... also my sideboard is a bit unfocused and still needs some serious help.
The drown in sorrow in the board are a nod to the spirit bond decks that are popping up right now.
First THANKS FOR THE REPLY! Now, that said, lets get down to business 8D
Jace, the Living Guildpact has been discussed at length (partially in this thread) and it seems that Jace, Architect of Thought for the time being really is the only viable option. Not saying that, Jace, the Living Guildpact is useless -- rather -- just at the moment he's not the most viable of options. As for courser of kruphix, admittedly he is missed (slightly) in my MD now that I have detached him from my BUG deck. Though, the mana has not changed b/c he is the same cmc as Dissolve in the aspect that they both cost (3). The added life gain is kind of a big deal, and I know that there has been a few games in "testing" in which that added life gain would/could have came in handy. Ultimately though, courser of kruphix does "die to Doomblade" and Dissolve simply does not.
Prognostic sphinx, now thats a great card 8D However, until Aetherling rotates, my question is why would you choose to use prognostic sphinx over Aetherling? If its because of the "scry," then I would lean more towards replacing that spot with 2-3 Jace, Architect of Thought, but thats just me 8D As for Aetherspouts, it really is our "sweeper" and thus (imo) requires a full 4 slots in the deck. Its simply just such a powerful card that (though I realize does not live in a vacuum) will get the job done (the job you need, not the job you want) most of the time. And evolving wilds ... maybe if you were running Nissa, Worldwaker, which I will talk about in length next 8D
Nissa, Worldwaker. She honesty is such an amazingly great card right now (and prolly in the next two years). I honesty cant say enough about the sheer power level she carries with her when she hits the board. Yes, like ALL other "Walkers" she "dies to Hero's Downfall," AND, she is a cmc of (5) which normally warrants failure (among most 5 cmc "walkers"). In her situation though it simply does not, because unlike "most" "walker" she has two +1's, both of which are honestly outstanding! Her ability to "ramp" and/or create a solid creature for defense is SOOOOO GOOD! The only "downside" to running her in this type of deck (or any deck with more then one color really) is the adjusting of lands to meet what ever X requirement the player feels is needed to properly use her in Y fashion.
Now, for the SB 8D
About 1/2 way through this thread I was on the Drown in Sorrow bandwagon as well. It would seem the meta is heading in the direction of MEGA CREATURE RUSH. That said, Kamahl, the Fallen more/less put it this way, "one or the other." Which of course he was referring to running Drown in Sorrow OR, hornet nest (both of which are solid SB options no matter how you look at it). The real issue at hand is that you have a very good chance of being put into a situation in which you will have to decide if casting Drown in Sorrow is worth loosing X Sylvan Caryatid and Y hornet nest, not to mention any tokens you made with Garruk, Apex Predator. These type of decisions are what they are (in a vacuum of course) but in reality -- not something "I" enjoy having to choose. I also feel that Nylea's disciple is a little overboard if you choose to keep running courser of kruphix (which again, there is NOTHING wrong with doing because the card is great) just -- it dies -- thats all. And in this deck (BUG) it would seem that "tempo" is REALLY important to the player playing it. I am curious though, you are running (0) counter-spells in the MD (which again, nothing wrong with that) however, you are running a (4) of Negate in the SB -- any explanation as to the (#) of and why?
All and all, I dont see a "problem" with your "brew," however just that you may run into some choices (with your current build) which may leave you with a bad taste in your mouth at the end of the game.
I think courser is more relevant right now than dissolve is. ( At least for me )
I dont want to go the " draw go " route, which is why i cut dissolve. i really want to put something on the table on turn 3, which is in this case courser or ashiok.
I chose Sphinx over Aetherling because of two things. First: Sphinx comes down faster, its also hard to remove ( not as hard as aetherling, but still ) and gives me a flying blocker.
Second: Aetherling is at least a 7 mana Spell, which is occupied by Garruk in my deck. Plain and simple.
Btw, why should i lose Caryatid or Garruk tokens to drown in sorrow ? Its only -2/-2 not -3/-3.
Nyleas Disciple is for the burn matchups, where courser is simple not enough most of the time. Skullcrack is a real card, and i need as much lifegain as possible, and the options are slim.
Playset of negate is for control and burn. I really hate that boros burn
Your uncertainty about having 3 or 4 is really only going to be relieved when M15 hits and we can see the speed of the format. I would say 4 is the right count regardless, but the fact that you can leverage it for a period of time may mean you do not need the 4th copy.
Courser is a card that actually dies more than you would think, in the Standard format and tends to live longer in decks like RG Monsters and Jund Monsters, because your opponent is constantly applying bigger threats to the board that ultimately matter more than Courser of Kruphix. UBG does not have many creatures that will ultimately matter more than Courser. You could play Polukranos, but the threat density just is not there. You dont have any Stormbreath Dragons, Domri Rade, Xenagos, the Reveler or Ruric Thar, the Unbowed to overload removal. Having a bumch of walkers may seem like you are backing it with some threat density, but you don't get to have an aggressive curve with them to the point that creatures are not going to be able to knock them out as you roll them onto the battlefield. In Block, there is less removal for Courser, so you are free to do more work with it making it a huge player. I am of the opinion that this is another reason the block lists have not seen a successful port to Standard, Courser of Kruphix in block is an entirely different thing than it is in Standard and while it is good in Standard, it is no better than a fair number of other creatures in the format.
The SB is where you really need to pick your battles, AEtherspouts pick up a lot of slack with your aggro matches and Courser of Kruphix helps makes these matches even easier, which means you can be a little lighter on anti-aggro slots in the SB. I would avoid running Drown in Sorrow alongside Hornet Nest, I have talked about the reasoning behind this a few times and it was somewhat reiterated above. With as much anti-aggro support as you have, even with the removal of Drown in Sorrow, I think you could just skip Nylea's Disciple. You don't want to be over-sideboarding. It is going to have to take some convincing on Liliana Vess in the board. Tutoring things up is cool, and repeated discard is cool - but Memory Adept is probably what you are looking for. Repeated Discard is almost useless against aggro decks and probably will not be repeat anyways, and tutoring in a slow match isn't as good as a well timed Jace, Memory Adept which can just end the game on resolution.
I like Mistcutter out of the board in situations where you are not really running any MB creatures. If you are in green and running MB creatures, your opponent is going to be leaving in Verdicts and Courser does not really push them to use those very quickly. I feel like you will be put in more situations where Mistcutter seems like a good play and ends up being a terrible one simply because your opponent was anticipating it, or decided to leave in a Verdict just to get some value out of knocking out your Caryatids and Coursers. Monsters gets away with bringing him in because, once again their threat level is WAY higher than yours. It is easy for them to create opening for a Hydra to connect by overloading the board with other things until Verdict is played.
UBG in Standard, at least what I have learned from messing with it as much as I have, requires a lot of efficient min/maxing on card selection and is more than just smashing good cards together.
Sylvan Caryatid is good at being an early blocker, as well as ramping, but I am at the point where I would rather have a late game cantrip and it has a bigger butt to boot. Messing with the numbers I can get up to 26 lands and be pretty content with the Wall of Mulch, I feel. Ramping into Garruk has just not really been the most impressive because while you can ramp into him, it means you still need to stabilize earlier as well and that just isn't always possible, so you feel weird with all of this mana in the late game when you didn't ramp into Garruk, Apex Predator.
I am not sure if this will really change permanently for me or not though, having a couple Caryatids to cover your late game spells with Dissolve or even AEtherspouts, is pretty solid.
The only real reason I can see keeping Caryatid in and Wall of Mulch out, is for the mana fixing, which I am not entirely convinced we need, nor do we actually need the ramp. You can up the land count just fine and add in something like a 4th Abrupt Decay and play with the numbers enough to make Wall of Mulch work just fine over Sylvan Caryatid. I think the real reason you would not want to do this, is simply because you are able to play things like Jace or Kiora with mana open - sooner rather than later.
WoM has a pretty valuable ability on it and it is in some ways, similar to what Wall of Omens was for Planeswalker Control decks.
havingenabling the ability to start playing your walkers every turn after you stabilize. It is either Wall of Mulch or I am moving up to 4 Jace's Ingenuity and the latter seems much less reasonable.I also noticed I needed a "little" more card draw, so I dropped from 3x Nissa, Worldwaker down to 2x. I then upped Jace, Architect of Thought up to the 3x he should have been from the get go 8D The SB was a slight change, mainly because of the addition of the Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver to the MD. I added 2x Golgari Charm because lets me frank, everything on that card is just gravy 8P I then added a singleton Dispel for when matching against a control variant and or burn.
Thoughts?
Creatures: 4
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Walkers: 12
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
Instants: 20
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Aetherspouts
4 Dissolve
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Putrefy
2 Ultimate Price
4 Breeding Pool
1 Darksteel Citadel
2 Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Mystery
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Watery Grave
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Dispel
2 Golgari Charm
2 Perilous Vault
2 Negate
4 Hornet Nest
4 Thoughtseize
---edit---
and yes, i'm still debating Wall of Mulch in the deck. It's just really going to be hard to pass up on quicker "walkers" down on the board and MOST of all the mana fixing.
---edit#2---
As for Perilous Vault, I am still sold on a duo on the SB. Yes, I do have a large quantity of "permanents" BUT, when you drop it on the board it changes the whole pace of the game -- and -- not to mention if slivers become a thing....
---edit#3---
I also thought I would make note that I dropped from 10x "scry lands" down to 8x. I did this because I would/have been getting irritated with all the "come into play tapped" lands. I decided a few "pain lands" would assist in the "fixing" of this matter.
3x Elvish Mystic
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Courser of Kruphix
Planeswalkers
4x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1x Liliana Vess
1x Nissa, Worldwaker
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
3x Hero's Downfall
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Ultimate Price
1x Far
3x AEtherspouts
Sorceries
1x In Garruk's Wake
4x Thoughtseize
Lands
4x Breeding Pool
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Watery Grave
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Temple of Mystery
2x Yavimaya Coast
3x Llanowar Wastes
2x Forest
2x Temple of Deceit
1x Swamp
Couple things I'd like to say about this list. One, I'm still working on the mana. Two, I think Far is an often forgotten/underrated card. Three, I'm trying out a no counterspell build, not sure if that's correct. Four, the deck could use some card draw; I was thinking maybe Divination because I'm not trying to hold my mana up for counters, although I am for removal, but it is a nice alternate three drop to Courser and is much better than Courser late in the game. Finally, I have some weird numbers of Planeswalkers due to availability; for example, I do not see myself getting any more Nissa anytime soon due to the 40 dollar pricetag. I just need to find another Kiora, and honestly, I might replace the one Nissa with the third Kiora, as I don't think she's as good in this list as she could be. Feel free to tell me that's wrong, as I could see reasons for leaving her in, even as a one-of. Again, any comments and discussion are more than welcome.
As for the Divination, its great and all but if you are trying for extra card draw (and you dont like holding cards in your hand) I would look into fitting maybe 2x Font of Fortunes in there someplace. Its not a bad drop on turn two, and you can choose when you want the cards at instant speed 8D
Thoughts?
Creatures: 4
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Walkers: 12
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
Instants: 20
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Aetherspouts
2 Dissolve
2 Far // Away
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Putrefy
2 Ultimate Price
4 Breeding Pool
1 Darksteel Citadel
2 Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Mystery
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Watery Grave
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Dispel
2 Golgari Charm
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Negate
4 Hornet Nest
4 Thoughtseize
Edit: My reasoning is that we generally only want to counter something that hurts our walkers (I just thought about Brave the Elements and how much it has been a pain for me in the past).
It's 3am here and im sorry if im not making much sense.
You also cannot counter an Abrupt Decay with a Swan Song...
The problem with Swan Song is that in a deck that relies on spot removal and maximizing AEtherspouts, the token can do a lot of work or even end up as a 2 for 1 against you if you have to use spot removal on it. If they start swinging with just the bird token, you look really silly when you eventually just have to use a Spouts or a spot removal spell to remove a token you gave them. The card is just not good and there is a reason it is not played - it has a big draw back.
You target your own Abrupt Decay so you get the swan.
That said, I don't like it either for the reasons you've stated.
The main reason I wanted to drop down to two counter-spells is b/c i'm not a BIG fan of holding up mana, i'd much rather have more "tempo" or how can I say ... be more productive? Anyway, I know that 4x Dissolve will probably end up being the "standard" for this build -- tell then -- im enjoying the Far // Away for what it is 8D
Also, kinda thinking bout dropping back to the Sylvan Caryatid, yes, the card draw from Wall of Mulch is nice mid/late game -- its just that I really do enjoy the mana fixing and dropping the "walkers" into play a turn/two sooner.
Or it would be Dissipate
Counter magic over creature removal means you are not dead in the water against other control decks.
The card is not terrible, just incredibly clunky for a deck like this.
People have been waiting for this card to break out since we entered an enchantment block and the card was spoiled. Rotation still does not change that fact that the card puts you in a horrid trading position. I think the correct card would just be extra Negates.
Lol, you hate leaving mana up, so you want to remove counter magic and instead run Far//Away? Casting Far//Away at sorcery speed is not the most appealing play I could think of, in fact it is pretty far from it. Like I said, the card is just clunky.
I don't know if that is correct, nor do I know if keeping WoM over Caryatid is correct. In fact, I am unsure if a 2 drop wall is correct at all, and I know I am not the only one who is game for possibly just removing these cards for other things.
EDIT
I am game to see Far//Away work if people can get it to work outside of some fringe cases. I quickly removed it because I was never having the open mana for it and instead was wasting better plays in order to get the value from it and it was not paying off.
For those who are interested in following my edits to the deck, you can find me in the thread that is located in Competitive Established where I can consolidate my thoughts a bit easier.