I'm not sure about this guy. We had this effect before. While they were playable 95-98 they got outclassed and were deemed too risky to play. Even though this guy is super cheap allowing your opponent out draw you is probably a very bad idea.
This guy just has to be on the table for your opponent to draw a card. I think this is a sideboard card at best against some decks where their removal is pretty narrow.
Well, first things first, this guy will not be often outclassed. On curve, he'll never be outclassed. This lessens the risk you mention.
There are two other factors that combine to further mitigate risk. One, they get the cards on YOUR turn. Two, you're playing BLACK. That means in many cases- particularly if you build with the goal in mind- you can strip out cards before they get a chance to use them. Unless they draw straight bombs on curve, there's a good chance you'll come out ahead considering you have a 5/5 flyer on board. The other upside of black? Super efficient removal. So if you do allow them to draw into efficient blockers there is, again, a good chance you can remove that obstacle as well.
You have valid points, for sure, but I'm still thinking this guy is super dangerous.
This is a card that you will have to play 4 of or none at all. There is no in between for that. They get worse with each one you draw. You never EVER want more than 1 of these on the table at one time.
This isn't really a sorcery meta as some people think it is. Non-black decks sure there are a lot of sorcery speed removal. All that means is they didn't get to draw a card. Your creature is still dead however and didn't do anything on the board. This is absolutely TERRIBLE vs mono black. MBD is over 30% of the meta game and the most played deck in the format. This isn't counting the B/W deck which the same deck with a little splash. The 30% is actually misleading it is much higher.
Because of the meta this is a sideboard card vs mono red where your pack rats are really bad.
Non-black decks sure there are a lot of sorcery speed removal. All that means is they didn't get to draw a card. Your creature is still dead however and didn't do anything on the board.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Who didn't get to draw a card, sorcery removal players? Why is my creature still dead? Explain one more time for me, more succinctly. I haven't had coffee today
You play master.
They play... detention sphere or some other sorcery speed removal?
They don't get to draw and your creature dies.
Sounds like he's making the "dies to removal" argument, coupling it with the idea that there's a lot of instant speed removal and turning it into "creates card disadvantage because it dies and gives your opponent a card".
Seriously, it's really hard to be more aggressive than this.
What about desecration demon as the curve topper? Maybe take out pain seer for it?
This. Except I would rather take out Pack Rat, and DDemon doesn't need to be a 4-of, so maybe a split between the two. I know Pack Rat can overrun some decks, but with Bile Blight and other wipes in large supply I don't feel like putting all my eggs in one basket.
+1. I think pack rat is absolutely wrong for this maindeck. I'd prefer a strictly aggressive creature that stands no chance of further reducing card advantage- thrill-kill assassin being my current choice. I'd probably start with a simple base like this:
I run red black agrro in standard and it is pretty even with the colors but I still run 2 demons and 4 rats but this guy looks to replace a a couple cards. In my opinion I would run two main board and two in the side board in case they are going to get a free card out of it.
Considering MBA already stomps the T1 decks right now, i think that mono black and Orzhov aggro are gonna be really strong decks with JOU coming around.
Here's what I'm running now, won me an fnm last friday:
If the meta speeds up, I would cut the Pain Seers and Rakdos Cacklers for more removal and Desecration Demons, the Marauders for Herald of Torment, and the Shred-Freaks for Thrill-Kill Assassins. It really depends on how you want the deck to be. It can be damn fast, all or nothing, or it could loose a bit of speed in exchange for card advantage or slightly stronger creatures.
A splash white for a solid 2 drop (the 3/1 spirit enchantment dude who shuts down card draw, can't remember the name), Soldier of the Pantheon, and Atheros is also a very solid option, given we have City of Brass back, as well as the shocklands still around. Atheros is THE strongest god printed so far (after a bit of testing on cockatrice), and in any BW aggro deck, you can dump 4 in with absolutely no regrets.
I think that the Master will also see play with Gary, as he does provide two black devotion on a fat body, and curves extremely well into a desecration demon and said evil zombie merchant. It will be a nice edition to both orzhov and mono black midrange as well as aggro.
I was just about to buy Lifebane Zombies for my BG Midrange deck when Wizards decides to spoil this. Now, I'm not sure now whether I'd rather have Master of the Feasts or Lifebanes since they occupy the same 3cmc slot. One one hand Master of the Feast hits like a truck for a 3 drop and puts an early clock on the enemy, but Lifebanes have situational disruption which could be just as useful.
Absolutely, let them draw the cards off this demon and then burn them out.
Ah, I didn't realize you were suggesting splashing red as well.
I'm also a proponent of adding red, as I suggested a few days ago Madcap Skills and Spike Jester are obviously great, with Gore-house Chainwalker and Firefist Striker showing potential as well. What do you guys think about Twinflame? With Master that's 10 damage in the air on turn 4- pretty brutal.
Honestly I think the best shell for this is going to be WB using Athreos, Brimaz and Master of the Feast. You don't want many non-creature permanents but you get to run kill spells for problematic blockers (brimaz vs. brimaz and Boros Reckoner etc...) Seems like cheating honestly.
"If fetch lands are reprinted I really believe they will be in allied colors (aka Onslaught fetches). If the fetch lands are reprinted you better believe that we'll all be fetching up basics. This would lead me to believe that the set after THS may have a reprint as the temples can't be fetched but it's pure speculation." - posted 03/22/2014 proved correct during Khans spoiler season.
"The set releases for fall 2015 (Blood, Sweat and Tears) and fall 2016 (Lock, Stock and Barrel). One or both of those 2 blocks (I'm betting) are going to contain either Fetch reprints or (more likely) Filter reprints. Filter lands still need a reprint. They are getting pretty high up there and it's been longer than ZEN so it makes a little more sense that Filter lands would see print earlier that fetches." - posted 03/22/2014 proved incorrect about filters coming earlier than fetches, still pending on filters in Origins block.
Honestly I think the best shell for this is going to be WB using Athreos, Brimaz and Master of the Feast. You don't want many non-creature permanents but you get to run kill spells for problematic blockers (brimaz vs. brimaz and Boros Reckoner etc...) Seems like cheating honestly.
Hm, I'm not convinced. The three drop slot is already crowded in this deck, and herald/master already fit what the deck wants to do much better than Brimaz does. He offers no resiliency nor evasion- herald offers both when you factor in his bestowed state and demon offers the latter along with a hell of a wallop. Likewise, Athreos doesn't really effect the board state when he lands- not in any way this deck can really take advantage of. I think what you're looking for is really more along the lines of BW humans, using xanthrid necromancer and such to really take advantage of Athreos. This deck is more about getting in fast beats, then going overhead with master, herald (bestowed or hard cast) and maybe even desecration demon.
The more and more I test with Athreos, the more and more I realize that I bought into hype.
His ability lands right into that whole Vexing Devil debate from a few years ago. Your opponent will choose what is best for them, which most of the time, they will just ignore the life payment and give you the cards. UWx decks will draw more cards and more answers than you over the course of the long game. They Verdict your board, with, let's say 4 guys. No control player worth their salt is going to pay 12 life to send cards, that have NO graveyard interaction mind you, to the graveyard. If this were Innistrad Standard and Unburial Rites was still a thing, then yes.
He takes sooo much work to turn on too! And by the time you curve right into him, they'll have the Wrath for your board and you just get your creatures back and they keep ignoring life payment and just grind you right now. Aggro can't go long like control can, and eventually you will be staring down an Elspeth Army or an Aetherling. No amount of creatures will win an Aetherling war at all.
I watched Evan Erwin's hype fest partial set review and he TRASHED Master of the Feast so hard. "Is an evasive 5/5 worth an giving your opponents cards?" Umm.yes it is. Considering this guy on his own is a 4 turn clock, combined with very effective and heavy beatsicks. In testing, my deck did sooo well against various decks last night, going 3-0. This guy is a house. He dodges most premium spot removal from the big decks, like Last Breath, Mizzium Mortars, but falls to the MBD ones, but since we can swarm them out right with creatures, we can usually race them right out. When they have to make Pack Rats to block and you can just fly right over them, I think we are winning.
This guy is certainly a sleeper and will push Mono Black to take over an unprepared Meta, and can hold it's own against a lot of decks. A card is worth an evasive, fat, 4 turn clock all day.
The more and more I test with Athreos, the more and more I realize that I bought into hype.
His ability lands right into that whole Vexing Devil debate from a few years ago. Your opponent will choose what is best for them, which most of the time, they will just ignore the life payment and give you the cards. UWx decks will draw more cards and more answers than you over the course of the long game. They Verdict your board, with, let's say 4 guys. No control player worth their salt is going to pay 12 life to send cards, that have NO graveyard interaction mind you, to the graveyard. If this were Innistrad Standard and Unburial Rites was still a thing, then yes.
He takes sooo much work to turn on too! And by the time you curve right into him, they'll have the Wrath for your board and you just get your creatures back and they keep ignoring life payment and just grind you right now. Aggro can't go long like control can, and eventually you will be staring down an Elspeth Army or an Aetherling. No amount of creatures will win an Aetherling war at all.
I watched Evan Erwin's hype fest partial set review and he TRASHED Master of the Feast so hard. "Is an evasive 5/5 worth an giving your opponents cards?" Umm.yes it is. Considering this guy on his own is a 4 turn clock, combined with very effective and heavy beatsicks. In testing, my deck did sooo well against various decks last night, going 3-0. This guy is a house. He dodges most premium spot removal from the big decks, like Last Breath, Mizzium Mortars, but falls to the MBD ones, but since we can swarm them out right with creatures, we can usually race them right out. When they have to make Pack Rats to block and you can just fly right over them, I think we are winning.
This guy is certainly a sleeper and will push Mono Black to take over an unprepared Meta, and can hold it's own against a lot of decks. A card is worth an evasive, fat, 4 turn clock all day.
welcome to the light side m8! remember to trade & sell those Athreos' the minute you crack them
I'm still not sold on Master of Feasts, because some decks like MBD can just ignore him (DD & cheap instant speed removal). Furthermore these decks can play Herald of Torment in the same slot. However Master makes a fine SB card, because there are some decks that will struggle with a big flier, even if they draw cards. If you can close out the game fast enough in those games, then Master suddenly becomes your trump card.
I haven't tested him in any capacity beyond the type of straight up aggro decks that have been tossed around thus far in the thread. So far, he's been fantastic. The curve out on this deck can be brutal:
t1: cackler/hero/scarhide
t2: thrill-kill/spiteful returned
t3: master
t4: mogis's marauder
Clearly control has options, but that's only 4 cards from our hand- 3 draws in. That's not over-extension, it's simply playing on curve with plenty of gas or thoughtseize/thero's downfall backup.
Lots of testing and tweaking to do, but I think he's pretty obviously going to be a hell of a beatstick.
You play master.
They play... detention sphere or some other sorcery speed removal?
They don't get to draw and your creature dies.
Sounds like he's making the "dies to removal" argument, coupling it with the idea that there's a lot of instant speed removal and turning it into "creates card disadvantage because it dies and gives your opponent a card".
Yes and no. It is not the dies to removal argument per say. The only time that argument doesn't work is when the creature has some kind of ETB trigger or dies trigger. The dies trigger is only relevant when the creature is more valuable than the dies trigger.
The non black decks are running sorcery speed removal. They will just kill your demon and not get to draw off him. Your demon is still dead and did nothing on the board. The Black decks are full of instant speed removal that is cheaper than demon's CMC. They will just wait until the trigger, draw and card, then kill your demon. In both instances the demon did nothing but die. This is where I have an issue with him and is the same reason that Polukranos isn't very good.
As an aggro deck I would never want this guy in the control match up. Demon allows the control deck to dig for answers which they will have more of than your pressure. Aggro decks take advantage of that match up when the control decks stumble. Giving them free cards is getting them out of the stumble. Allowing them to make their land drops or find a verdict.
This guy is very good vs other aggro decks. He can brick all their attacks and win any kind of damage race. They can have all the cards in the world but most aggro decks cannot play more than 1 card a turn until turn 5-6.
This is why I say this guy is sideboard. You don't want him vs control or mid range decks. Only good vs aggro.
You play master.
They play... detention sphere or some other sorcery speed removal?
They don't get to draw and your creature dies.
Sounds like he's making the "dies to removal" argument, coupling it with the idea that there's a lot of instant speed removal and turning it into "creates card disadvantage because it dies and gives your opponent a card".
Yes and no. It is not the dies to removal argument per say. The only time that argument doesn't work is when the creature has some kind of ETB trigger or dies trigger. The dies trigger is only relevant when the creature is more valuable than the dies trigger.
The non black decks are running sorcery speed removal. They will just kill your demon and not get to draw off him. Your demon is still dead and did nothing on the board. The Black decks are full of instant speed removal that is cheaper than demon's CMC. They will just wait until the trigger, draw and card, then kill your demon. In both instances the demon did nothing but die. This is where I have an issue with him and is the same reason that Polukranos isn't very good.
As an aggro deck I would never want this guy in the control match up. Demon allows the control deck to dig for answers which they will have more of than your pressure. Aggro decks take advantage of that match up when the control decks stumble. Giving them free cards is getting them out of the stumble. Allowing them to make their land drops or find a verdict.
This guy is very good vs other aggro decks. He can brick all their attacks and win any kind of damage race. They can have all the cards in the world but most aggro decks cannot play more than 1 card a turn until turn 5-6.
This is why I say this guy is sideboard. You don't want him vs control or mid range decks. Only good vs aggro.
Aside from my general contention with your view of creatures as a simplified if/then scenario, I'm going to point out that, again, we are playing BLACK. Post board against control that means 4x thoughtseize, 4x duress. Even pre-board, I'm running 4x thoughtseize so they simply do not have access to their full complement of control cards at any point in the match. The deck may already have some number of Lifebane Zombies maindeck as well.
How are people still using the "dies to removal" argument? That's an auto-defect and SUPER lazy. I understand that he offers an extended risk factor, but that hasn't stopped countless creatures from seeing tournament play for the last 20 years.
This guy is very good vs other aggro decks. He can brick all their attacks and win any kind of damage race. They can have all the cards in the world but most aggro decks cannot play more than 1 card a turn until turn 5-6.
This is where I think he'll shine if he's to be played. He can outrace pretty well every aggro deck in the format when played on curve, and unless they're running black removal they'll have a tough time killing him. He's still going to generate card disadvantage, but tempo and racing can be just as important in aggro matchups as literal card advantage.
Like you say though his drawback is pretty huge against decks like mono-black that have instant speed removal or against Revelation control decks that don't mind taking a few hits and reaping the rewards of the extra cards.
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This is a card that you will have to play 4 of or none at all. There is no in between for that. They get worse with each one you draw. You never EVER want more than 1 of these on the table at one time.
This isn't really a sorcery meta as some people think it is. Non-black decks sure there are a lot of sorcery speed removal. All that means is they didn't get to draw a card. Your creature is still dead however and didn't do anything on the board. This is absolutely TERRIBLE vs mono black. MBD is over 30% of the meta game and the most played deck in the format. This isn't counting the B/W deck which the same deck with a little splash. The 30% is actually misleading it is much higher.
Because of the meta this is a sideboard card vs mono red where your pack rats are really bad.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Who didn't get to draw a card, sorcery removal players? Why is my creature still dead? Explain one more time for me, more succinctly. I haven't had coffee today
You play master.
They play... detention sphere or some other sorcery speed removal?
They don't get to draw and your creature dies.
Sounds like he's making the "dies to removal" argument, coupling it with the idea that there's a lot of instant speed removal and turning it into "creates card disadvantage because it dies and gives your opponent a card".
What about desecration demon as the curve topper? Maybe take out pain seer for it?
This. Except I would rather take out Pack Rat, and DDemon doesn't need to be a 4-of, so maybe a split between the two. I know Pack Rat can overrun some decks, but with Bile Blight and other wipes in large supply I don't feel like putting all my eggs in one basket.
3 rakdos cackler
3 tormented hero
4 spiteful returned
3 thrill-kill assassin
2 mogis's marauder
4 herald of torment
4 master of the feast
3 desecration demon
4 hero's downfall
Here's what I'm running now, won me an fnm last friday:
4 Tormented Hero
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
2 Pack Rat
3 Spiteful Returned
3 Mogis's Marauder
3 Xathrid Necromancer
2 Herald of Torment
1 Agent of the Fates
1 Desecration Demon
3 Boon of Erebos
3 Bile Blight
2 Ultimate Price
2 Hero's Downfall
22 Swamp
4 Duress
2 Grey Merchant of Asphodel
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Gift of Orzhova
2 Pithing Needle
2 Cremate
1 Spiteful Returned
I am, and always will be, a fan of the aggro deck. Here's what I predict will win me tournaments if the meta stays as slow as it is:
4 Tormented Hero
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Spiteful Returned
2 Pain Seer
4 Master of the Feast
3 Mogis's Marauder
3 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall
22 land
4 Duress
11 meta based counters and checks
If the meta speeds up, I would cut the Pain Seers and Rakdos Cacklers for more removal and Desecration Demons, the Marauders for Herald of Torment, and the Shred-Freaks for Thrill-Kill Assassins. It really depends on how you want the deck to be. It can be damn fast, all or nothing, or it could loose a bit of speed in exchange for card advantage or slightly stronger creatures.
A splash white for a solid 2 drop (the 3/1 spirit enchantment dude who shuts down card draw, can't remember the name), Soldier of the Pantheon, and Atheros is also a very solid option, given we have City of Brass back, as well as the shocklands still around. Atheros is THE strongest god printed so far (after a bit of testing on cockatrice), and in any BW aggro deck, you can dump 4 in with absolutely no regrets.
I think that the Master will also see play with Gary, as he does provide two black devotion on a fat body, and curves extremely well into a desecration demon and said evil zombie merchant. It will be a nice edition to both orzhov and mono black midrange as well as aggro.
Current Standard Decks:
BRVampiresRB
Over read the bones?
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
4 Gnarled Scarhide
3 Mogis's Marauder
2 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Spike Jester
3 Spiteful Returned
4 Master of the Feast
4 Herald of Torment
4 Madcap Skills
3 Lightning Strike
3 Doom Blade
4 Mutavault
4 Temple of Malice
4 Blood Crypt
10 Swamp
This was done very quickly.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
Link to the BW aggro list I've been testing:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-new-card-discussion/553277-bw-aggro
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Ah, I didn't realize you were suggesting splashing red as well.
I'm also a proponent of adding red, as I suggested a few days ago Madcap Skills and Spike Jester are obviously great, with Gore-house Chainwalker and Firefist Striker showing potential as well. What do you guys think about Twinflame? With Master that's 10 damage in the air on turn 4- pretty brutal.
"The set releases for fall 2015 (Blood, Sweat and Tears) and fall 2016 (Lock, Stock and Barrel). One or both of those 2 blocks (I'm betting) are going to contain either Fetch reprints or (more likely) Filter reprints. Filter lands still need a reprint. They are getting pretty high up there and it's been longer than ZEN so it makes a little more sense that Filter lands would see print earlier that fetches." - posted 03/22/2014 proved incorrect about filters coming earlier than fetches, still pending on filters in Origins block.
Hm, I'm not convinced. The three drop slot is already crowded in this deck, and herald/master already fit what the deck wants to do much better than Brimaz does. He offers no resiliency nor evasion- herald offers both when you factor in his bestowed state and demon offers the latter along with a hell of a wallop. Likewise, Athreos doesn't really effect the board state when he lands- not in any way this deck can really take advantage of. I think what you're looking for is really more along the lines of BW humans, using xanthrid necromancer and such to really take advantage of Athreos. This deck is more about getting in fast beats, then going overhead with master, herald (bestowed or hard cast) and maybe even desecration demon.
His ability lands right into that whole Vexing Devil debate from a few years ago. Your opponent will choose what is best for them, which most of the time, they will just ignore the life payment and give you the cards. UWx decks will draw more cards and more answers than you over the course of the long game. They Verdict your board, with, let's say 4 guys. No control player worth their salt is going to pay 12 life to send cards, that have NO graveyard interaction mind you, to the graveyard. If this were Innistrad Standard and Unburial Rites was still a thing, then yes.
He takes sooo much work to turn on too! And by the time you curve right into him, they'll have the Wrath for your board and you just get your creatures back and they keep ignoring life payment and just grind you right now. Aggro can't go long like control can, and eventually you will be staring down an Elspeth Army or an Aetherling. No amount of creatures will win an Aetherling war at all.
I watched Evan Erwin's
hype festpartial set review and he TRASHED Master of the Feast so hard. "Is an evasive 5/5 worth an giving your opponents cards?" Umm.yes it is. Considering this guy on his own is a 4 turn clock, combined with very effective and heavy beatsicks. In testing, my deck did sooo well against various decks last night, going 3-0. This guy is a house. He dodges most premium spot removal from the big decks, like Last Breath, Mizzium Mortars, but falls to the MBD ones, but since we can swarm them out right with creatures, we can usually race them right out. When they have to make Pack Rats to block and you can just fly right over them, I think we are winning.This guy is certainly a sleeper and will push Mono Black to take over an unprepared Meta, and can hold it's own against a lot of decks. A card is worth an evasive, fat, 4 turn clock all day.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
welcome to the light side m8! remember to trade & sell those Athreos' the minute you crack them
I'm still not sold on Master of Feasts, because some decks like MBD can just ignore him (DD & cheap instant speed removal). Furthermore these decks can play Herald of Torment in the same slot. However Master makes a fine SB card, because there are some decks that will struggle with a big flier, even if they draw cards. If you can close out the game fast enough in those games, then Master suddenly becomes your trump card.
Youtube Channel
t1: cackler/hero/scarhide
t2: thrill-kill/spiteful returned
t3: master
t4: mogis's marauder
Clearly control has options, but that's only 4 cards from our hand- 3 draws in. That's not over-extension, it's simply playing on curve with plenty of gas or thoughtseize/thero's downfall backup.
Lots of testing and tweaking to do, but I think he's pretty obviously going to be a hell of a beatstick.
Yes and no. It is not the dies to removal argument per say. The only time that argument doesn't work is when the creature has some kind of ETB trigger or dies trigger. The dies trigger is only relevant when the creature is more valuable than the dies trigger.
The non black decks are running sorcery speed removal. They will just kill your demon and not get to draw off him. Your demon is still dead and did nothing on the board. The Black decks are full of instant speed removal that is cheaper than demon's CMC. They will just wait until the trigger, draw and card, then kill your demon. In both instances the demon did nothing but die. This is where I have an issue with him and is the same reason that Polukranos isn't very good.
As an aggro deck I would never want this guy in the control match up. Demon allows the control deck to dig for answers which they will have more of than your pressure. Aggro decks take advantage of that match up when the control decks stumble. Giving them free cards is getting them out of the stumble. Allowing them to make their land drops or find a verdict.
This guy is very good vs other aggro decks. He can brick all their attacks and win any kind of damage race. They can have all the cards in the world but most aggro decks cannot play more than 1 card a turn until turn 5-6.
This is why I say this guy is sideboard. You don't want him vs control or mid range decks. Only good vs aggro.
Aside from my general contention with your view of creatures as a simplified if/then scenario, I'm going to point out that, again, we are playing BLACK. Post board against control that means 4x thoughtseize, 4x duress. Even pre-board, I'm running 4x thoughtseize so they simply do not have access to their full complement of control cards at any point in the match. The deck may already have some number of Lifebane Zombies maindeck as well.
How are people still using the "dies to removal" argument? That's an auto-defect and SUPER lazy. I understand that he offers an extended risk factor, but that hasn't stopped countless creatures from seeing tournament play for the last 20 years.
This is where I think he'll shine if he's to be played. He can outrace pretty well every aggro deck in the format when played on curve, and unless they're running black removal they'll have a tough time killing him. He's still going to generate card disadvantage, but tempo and racing can be just as important in aggro matchups as literal card advantage.
Like you say though his drawback is pretty huge against decks like mono-black that have instant speed removal or against Revelation control decks that don't mind taking a few hits and reaping the rewards of the extra cards.