i got the point on Mutavaut, i'll wait to buy..gonna try Radiant first, with a more agressive build with Boon of Erebos and Thoughtseize together on the MB. i'll take my chance with 3x of them...let's see how it goes...i'm returning to Magic this month, this is my first build in 5 years of absence...i'm used to play Standard only...so i'm thinking very hard about the investment on Mutavaul, i know i can trade or sell it later on and got standard staples...but not sure about this move yet...tks for the insights!!
Mutavault is out of standard in a about two months. If you are wanting to do bigger tournaments and give yourself the best chance of winning between now and the release of Khans of Tarkir (mid-September) then it is worth buying them. If you are just going to do FNM, Game Day and similar events, then you are looking at a pretty significant expense for only short term use. You can do just fine with this deck at lower level events. Obviously your money to spend, but they are going down in value now and will only continue to do so.
Mutavault is out of standard in a about two months. If you are wanting to do bigger tournaments and give yourself the best chance of winning between now and the release of Khans of Tarkir (mid-September) then it is worth buying them. If you are just going to do FNM, Game Day and similar events, then you are looking at a pretty significant expense for only short term use. You can do just fine with this deck at lower level events. Obviously your money to spend, but they are going down in value now and will only continue to do so.[/quote]
i'm intend to go in mid/low rated events only..gonna try my luck at a GPT this saturday, Gameday and perhaps some FNM between now and late September...i'll think during the week..tks!!
Here is what I am thinking for Game Day. I don' know the meta very well as I have been doing SCG IQ events instead of FNM, (being an adult instead of doing both!) so I have tried to make a balanced deck that can answer anything.
The Crippling Blight and Ulcerate are in the board instead of the main. I want them there for games that I need to win while on the draw. I have typed enough here about the importance of tempo, but because I am not sure the meta game, having some main deck kill spells seems like the right way to go.
Compared to Agent Orange (my previous anti-Green decklist) I have cut both Lifebane Zombie and one Herald of Torment from the main in order to be able to run 2 Master of the Feast and one more non-creature spell. I have also gone back to running the full 4 Thoughtseize in my main because it is the best, universal answer we have. This is also what made me go to one less creature as I needed more space for spells. I am apprehensive about not running the full 4 Herald of Torment as that is such a good card, but I will have two fliers to compensate.
I have eliminated Agent of the Fates from the board because I am giving Master of the Feast a try. There is an embarrassment of riches at 3CMC with this deck. I have also eliminated Sign in Blood, which makes me sad as that is such a good card.
Your thoughts and suggestions please. This is not the same as the 100% competitive decks I posted previously. Game Day brings out a lot of people so I have to be flexible. Also, I want to give Master of the Feast so I guess I am one of those people.
Stats on the above deck: Average CMC including lands - 1.15. So each Pain Seer inspired trigger will cost us, on average that much life. Average spell CMC - 1.82. Traditionally used to figure out how many lands you should be running. Effective average spell CMC - 2.16. A computation I use that takes into account bestow, used for land computation. I estimate how often I bestow a card vs. cast it as a creature, do the maths and get how much mana I on average dedicate to that card. Spiteful Returned, for example, I bestow 3 times for every 1 time I cast it. So ((3x4)+(1x2))/4 = 3.5. So Spiteful Returned has an effective CMC of 3.5.
Not sure if anyone else will find this helpful, but this is how I sanity check my decks. Of course, Mutavault doesn't play like a normal land so it is hard to make any rules from these numbers.
Here is what I am thinking for Game Day. I don' know the meta very well as I have been doing SCG IQ events instead of FNM, (being an adult instead of doing both!) so I have tried to make a balanced deck that can answer anything.
The Crippling Blight and Ulcerate are in the board instead of the main. I want them there for games that I need to win while on the draw. I have typed enough here about the importance of tempo, but because I am not sure the meta game, having some main deck kill spells seems like the right way to go.
Compared to Agent Orange (my previous anti-Green decklist) I have cut both Lifebane Zombie and one Herald of Torment from the main in order to be able to run 2 Master of the Feast and one more non-creature spell. I have also gone back to running the full 4 Thoughtseize in my main because it is the best, universal answer we have. This is also what made me go to one less creature as I needed more space for spells. I am apprehensive about not running the full 4 Herald of Torment as that is such a good card, but I will have two fliers to compensate.
I have eliminated Agent of the Fates from the board because I am giving Master of the Feast a try. There is an embarrassment of riches at 3CMC with this deck. I have also eliminated Sign in Blood, which makes me sad as that is such a good card.
Your thoughts and suggestions please. This is not the same as the 100% competitive decks I posted previously. Game Day brings out a lot of people so I have to be flexible. Also, I want to give Master of the Feast so I guess I am one of those people.
Team, you're growing on me even though you keep pushing that damn Agent..
Honestly, here's what I'd do if I was in your shoes getting ready for an IQ (it's a WHOLE different ball game).
-1 Urborg. Just one brother, just one.
-2 Dark Betrayals in the side. You only need 2 if you have both Ultimate Price and Bile Blight.
+2 Duress in the side. C'mon, you know better than to leave this out of the 75.
-2 Pain Seer. I know, I know, but this isnt a block IQ. You need the extra Thrill-Kill and the extra Herald of Torment.
+2 Lifebane Zombie in the MAIN. You WILL see more green and g/w because that's the flavor of the month.
Try and squeeze in some Pharika's Cure. It's great not just for burn (to kill your own stuff like Tormented Hero.. see the combo) but it's swell vs other aggro. You'll see sligh and the mirror match. You need to be ready.
Also.. TRY and squeeze in a singleton of Tormod's Crypt. With such a diverse and unknown meta, ones and twos of in your side if what is needed. Just a card here or there to deal with stuff maybe you haven't seen before.
You're welcome
edit: Come to think about it, you could probably do 1 Dark Betrayal in the side to open up a spot for something else. And don't forget to side out those Master's against MBD.
It's funny.. I was looking back at my original post that started the thread and while my list looks very similar to what it is now, it's also drastically different. It's been fun to plug and play and test and to see what works. I just hope everyone else is winning and most importantly having fun with mono black aggro (at least as much fun as I am, hopefully more!).
I've been playing with green deck variants recently, but it's funny that when I reeeeally wanted that Bile Blight promo on the first of August, I went right for that familiar black deck and came in fourth overall, dust on the box and all. It's consistent, it's competitive and it's staying around for a long time.
Honestly, here's what I'd do if I was in your shoes getting ready for an IQ (it's a WHOLE different ball game).
The list I posted is for Game Day at my LGS, not an IQ. Were I going to an IQ, I'd probably go back to my Agent Orange build that got me #1 seed for Top 8 at the SuperIQ, perhaps with a couple of tweaks to the sideboard.
Interesting. I feel like the chances of drawing two are slim enough and the upside of having one strong enough that running two is just fine. I wish there were some math on this one.
-2 Pain Seer. I know, I know, but this isnt a block IQ. You need the extra Thrill-Kill and the extra Herald of Torment.
I think we will disagree here. Pain Seer is the best two drop we have thanks to your suggestion (IIRC) to add Boon of Erebos. Punch it through a blocker and then draw a card is fantastic. I am very reluctant to drop the Herald of Torment, but if I go back up to 4 of those, it won't be to take out Pain Seer.
+2 Lifebane Zombie in the MAIN. You WILL see more green and g/w because that's the flavor of the month.
I agree, but I want to try Master of the Feast. Were this an IQ, I'd be with you 100%, but since it is just Game Day and I haven't run the Master yet, I am willing to leave good old LBZ in the sideboard. Yeah, I am sure I will regret it when I get my face stomped by some G/W net deck, but this is 50% winning and 50% learning for me.
Try and squeeze in some Pharika's Cure. It's great not just for burn (to kill your own stuff like Tormented Hero.. see the combo) but it's swell vs other aggro. You'll see sligh and the mirror match. You need to be ready.
Also.. TRY and squeeze in a singleton of Tormod's Crypt. With such a diverse and unknown meta, ones and twos of in your side if what is needed. Just a card here or there to deal with stuff maybe you haven't seen before.
You're welcome
edit: Come to think about it, you could probably do 1 Dark Betrayal in the side to open up a spot for something else. And don't forget to side out those Master's against MBD.
Maybe I will switch the 2 Ulcerate for 2 Pharika's Cure. Killing things and gaining life? Weird.
If someone brings a copy of the Conley Woods PT M15 zombie madness deck I will smile at the shenanigans and do the best I can. I think you are right that someone will try that, but I have never been a fan of singletons in the sideboard. I am of the opinion that in an aggro deck that usually only sees 1/4 of its deck, a singleton sideboard card is too much of a long shot.
As always, thanks. What are your plans for Game Day?
My plans for Game day.. depends what prizes are. Probably my green based BUG deck but if there's something I REALLY want..
However there's an invitational coming up in my LGS where the prize is 500 cash and a case of m15 booster boxes. For that I'll run mono black aggro and totally change my sideboard out to something like I listed above. I'll list my list (-__-) when the tournament gets closer with results.
Just did a little kitchen table research against my son's monsters deck.
Bile Blight is the highest variance card in the deck. You have an otherwise good, two land hand, if one is a Mutavault, Bile Blight is useless until you draw that second swamp, at which point, it is often useless because it no longer kills anything. When you have two swamps and see two Elves, it is fantastic. I don't quite know what to do with it.
I do know that not running the full four Herald of Torment is not a good idea. It is so strong and so versatile, there isn't really a point in any game where I am not mana screwed that I don't want it. BostonSteve will want to kill me, but I think Thrill-Kill Assassin is going to come out to make room for Herald number 4. Thrill-Kill can be a pain for the opponent at times, but until you bestow on it, it is pretty low impact.
I still think Pain Seer is essential and am actually considering a third. On games that it triggers once, it is often very easy to get a second trigger thanks to the extra card. Pain Seer is absolutely a card that is like an avalanche that builds up momentum until it destroys everything in its path. That said, two in one hand can be risky, but as it is a removal magnet, I think a third would be OK. I just don't know what to take out.
Thoughtseize is terrible against monsters unless they keep a bad hand. You can use it early to strip their ramp, but then you lose tempo so it is like they ramp anyway as you haven't pressed an advantage. You hold onto it for later, and they have the mana to cast everything they have in hand so you simply get to choose how you die, not actually stop it. The only time I was happy with the card was: T1, 1 drop; T2 swing, Thoughtseize, 1 drop. Which of course requires 5 cards (2 one drops, Thoughtseize and two swamps in your opening hand) and is therefore very rare. Maybe I am missing something, but it is a poor fit in this deck for this kind of match up. I am debating on whether or not to move it to the sideboard since at an event like Game Day, most decks are pretty creature based.
I missed Crippling Blight much more than I thought I would. I think I need to recalibrate to play with a little more patience.
I didn't see Master of the Feast more than a couple of times and it certainly does work. But with Domri Rade and Xeangos, the Reveler as card advantage engines working against you, even versus a removal light deck, the downside is real.
See I also disagree about Thoughtseize vs monsters. I will gladly pay two life to get rid of their courser, domri or caryatid. It's the second best card in standard, let's not lose sight of that.
See I also disagree about Thoughtseize vs monsters. I will gladly pay two life to get rid of their courser, domri or caryatid. It's the second best card in standard, let's not lose sight of that.
My experience has been different. Decks are now built to survive T1 Thoughtseize and with the large card pool we have now, that is pretty easy to do in almost any color combination. I have been working with my son so that his deck has this resilience, that he makes mulligan decisions conscious of Thoughtseize and I can say that testing last night it showed up.
That isn't to say Thoughtseize is universally bad, just that it isn't as good as it once was. Post rotation, I think it will be an auto 4 of, but right now, while it is consistently a good card, there are a growing number of matchups where there are better things to do. Also, having played in a couple of IQ Top8s and run up to the top table (and sent back down from it), I will opine that the better the opponent, the less impactful Thoughtseize is. I think the difference is that a good opponent can infer a lot of information about your hand based upon what you take while a less skilled opponent will not.
As a result, I don't think I will be running 4 in the main. 4 of in the 75 for sure, because, as you said, it is one of the top cards in standard.
Some general thoughts about MBA and the conclusion that i got to:
This is a very good post, and in the interest of brevity, I will only mention areas of disagreement. Please do not think that I am being negative as I agree with most of what you say. Your suggested deck list has only 59 cards, btw.
I rank the one drops differently. Gnarled Scarhide is the best, we agree, but I think Tormented Hero comes second. The extra toughness of Rakdos Cackler only matters if we play against Elves while the Heroic trigger from Tormented Hero can matter in every matchup. I have won a game because Tormented Hero went unblocked, I used Boon of Erebos and did 5 instead of 4. Also, the red in Cackler doesn't play well with the intimidate of Mogis's Marauder
I agree with your take on Pain Seer, and you can look back as BostonSteve and I have discussed it at length with me pro, him con, however I disagree with your suggested list running four. As you said, it isn't a good late game top deck, and in my experience, it often isn't good in multiples, so I run either two or three. My best success is two Pain Seer and one Sign in Blood, although I could see going 2 and 2 or even 3 and 1 as well.
The 3CMC cards are really what make this deck go, I agree. I have just started testing Master of the Feast so I don't have as much data. I agree that we want one set of fliers (either Herald or Master) but I am a diehard Mogis's Marauder fan. Pancho Villa is without doubt responsible for more wins than any other card I have run and not having four in the main deck is, IMO, a mistake. Even if you are expecting to see a lot of black, it is still worth having. MBD rarely has a lot of blockers (Pack Rat is a miserable blocker because of the cascade effect) so the haste is still a big advantage. Against any other deck, the card is great at any point in the game. Needless to say, the best top deck late game, but also just fine to play on three as a way to ensure you get a Pain Seer inspired trigger. Pancho makes every card you have on the battlefield relevant again once the board has stalled. It is a one sided, one turn sweeper.
Happy to see someone else using Agent of the Fates in creature matchups. He really does a ton of work and although he isn't main deck at this point, I could very easily see a meta where he is the 9th and 10th 3 drop in the 60.
My opinion of Ulcerate is mixed, not all negative like yours. I like it in conjunction with Crippling Blight, but never more than two. It is a great card when you are on the draw and the game goes something like this:
OPP-T1: Forest, Experiment One
ME-T1: Swamp, Tormented Hero
OPP-T2: Plains, Fleecemane Lion, Swing 2 with Ex1
ME-T2: Swamp, Ulcerate the Lion, Swing 2, Gnarled Scarhide.
Yes, I am at 15, but just two turns into the game I am now ahead on board against another aggro deck while on the draw. That is very powerful and that is what Ulcerate gives you the ability to do. Now you can go to Crippling Blight, using only one mana, and continue to play out dudes and beat them down. This works against red decks too, although the life loss is obviously a bigger risk when facing burn.
That said, drawing an Ulcerate late game when you are low on life is terrible. It also quickly gets out classed in certain matchups (monsters). So narrow, but when it is good, it is very good. I think it would fit well in what you describe as the most aggro build using Pain Seer and Master of the Feast.
I feel that Bile Blight has the same "no middle ground" as Ulcerate. The BB cost is a pain early and it is rare that you want it late. I do like having it against decks that play Elspeth as they often tap out and hide behind a wall of tokens that for just 2 mana we can remove. So I would revise your sideboard guide to make Bile Blight removal vs control conditional.
Great post, and the fact that we don't agree on everything is good, in my opinion. The more well thought out opinions we have, the more it shows that we have a strong deck. If there is only one way to do things, I think it indicates less overall strength.
Only change I would make is go 2 Ultimate Price and 2 Doom Blade rather than 1/3 split as it means you have fewer dead cards should you see T1 Swamp across the table. Please make sure you post up results.
I agree with Team, again, on this (omg). We don't necessarily argue because one is right and one is wrong, we state our disagreements because of what our personal choices are. I will always be against Sign in Blood in this deck, yet I've never really told anyone to not play it. It's just my vision of what I think this deck wants to do and what it does best.
And the funny thing is, I was the first advocate FOR Pain Seer in this thread, and sadly just like Agent it had to be a casualty of the war. Too many good cards at it's cmc slot. Thrill-Kill is just more damage and trades up much better that the Seer. Post rotation, you can bet your butt the Seer comes right back.
And about Tormented Hero.. forget about the heroic enabler. Sometimes you just NEED to block a lethal attack. Only the Hero can do that. He's the only creature I'm really comfortable leaving back to block too. Spiteful Returned? Attack! Master of the Feast? Attack! You get the gist.
I think you need to see a doctor as this is twice in 24 hours that you have agreed with me. Either you are ill or I am seeing things. One of us needs medical attention, I am sure of it.
I always appreciate the disagreement we have here. I think it makes us all better. For example, I know that I would never have run Boon of Erebos were it not for what BostonSteve posted about it. That card has out right won matches for me and I consider it an essential part of my game plan.
PS: I don't like Urborg in MonoBAggro, because i don't want to fix the manabase for Superfriends and Jund giving them a higher chance of hitting 1BB for Hero's Downfall against me. I like smiling about their greedy manabases.
I run a Esper Midrange as my main deck and have never really considered Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth of any use even when i play it myself or when an opponent uses it on me. All it does is fix my mana base early game one week and opponent gave me all 3 colors on turn 1, but around turn 4 i have all the colors i need for any combo in my deck anyways. Can't speak for jund though. What i find funny is everyone is trying to somehow use Radiant Fountain in there decks even though it's messing up most mana bases.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
With multiple Mutavaults or Radiant Fountains, Urborg will almost always be more beneficial than harmful. It can save you from getting mana screwed, and with all the temples, shocklands, and Pain lands, any good opponent will probably not need black mana, to the point where playing Urborg would benefit them more than you. If you run 2, the odds of getting one stuck in your hand isn't very likely, considering how fast our deck ends games.
One game I started with a hand of Swamp, Mutavault, Mutavault, Scarhide, Scarhide, Master, Bile Blight. My MBD opponent played an Urborg on turn 2. I proceeded to smash his face in without ever drawing another land.
Just found this article by Frank Karsten on Channelfireball's website. It's pretty interesting and there's a bit about mono-black aggro in there along with some matchup percentages.
*his version has relegated a playset of Thoughtseize to the sideboard.
*interestingly, he mainboards 3x Ulcerate
*No Master in the MB, with a playset of every creature, no Thrill-Kills, and a single Lifebane Zombie
*if I'm reading the percentages chart correctly (it's quite blurry) it looks like mono-black aggro performed fairly well in all the matchups.
One game I started with a hand of Swamp, Mutavault, Mutavault, Scarhide, Scarhide, Master, Bile Blight. My MBD opponent played an Urborg on turn 2. I proceeded to smash his face in without ever drawing another land.
Yeah. Urborg is pretty great.
I don't believe that is the correct way to to think about it. We need swamps every game. There will be games when making all lands into swamps does nothing beneficial for our opponent. Based simply on that cocktail napkin analysis, Urborg will benefit us more than it helps our opposition. Furthermore, given that we strive to play a game of very few turns, being able to play Mutavault earlier and still cast what we want as soon as possible fits our overall strategy.
Just found this article by Frank Karsten on Channelfireball's website. It's pretty interesting and there's a bit about mono-black aggro in there along with some matchup percentages.
*his version has relegated a playset of Thoughtseize to the sideboard.
*interestingly, he mainboards 3x Ulcerate
*No Master in the MB, with a playset of every creature, no Thrill-Kills, and a single Lifebane Zombie
*if I'm reading the percentages chart correctly (it's quite blurry) it looks like mono-black aggro performed fairly well in all the matchups.
Thanks for the link. What a great article. It looks like Mono-Black Aggro had a winning record vs all decks except Black Devotion (and variants thereof), R/W Burn and G/W Aggro. It is the last on that list that I am most afraid of, BTW.
His analysis of Thoughtseize is similar to my own. There are too many matchups that playing to our game plan is much better than trying to disrupt theirs. That said, I will likely be running Thoughtseize main deck on Game Day because the event meta is all over the map, therefore the information gained from casting it is of much greater value than an IQ where I played the last few times. I would imagine that this becomes even more pronounced when you are a seasoned pro with strong knowledge of the format playing at Pro Tour against someone not named Conley Woods.
I think it is interesting that he runs only Pain Seer and no Thrill-Kill Assassin, but I think I can see why. His results table has at the very bottom % of expected field. No deck that plays early creatures accounts for a significant percentage. The deathtouch ability is great when there are guys on the field across from you, but if there isn't, Pain Seer's inspired trigger is superior.
To me, the biggest deal is that he runs 23 lands. I am not going to go so far as to say that he is wrong, but all my experience indicates that this is not the way to go. Depending upon configuration, the deck is best with 22 or even 21 lands. With the full 12 two power one drops and 4 one CMC non-creature spells, I would likely run 21 with that configuration, unless I had a very specific sideboard strategy.
Looking at the sideboard, I am not sure which matchup Desecration Demon is for but I have never thought that card fit in our deck. I would rather spend 4 mana bestowing to do more damage as it acts like haste, rather than casting a card that sits for a turn and then can be tapped down to buy time until removal is drawn. Unlike mono-black devotion, our deck doesn't have enough removal to make sure there isn't a creature available to tap the demon down.
Quote from "Frank Karsten" »
Mogis's Marauder is silently one of the best cards in Standard.
Preach on brother Frank, preach on!
I am surprised to see no Ultimate Price anywhere in the 75. Also, the inclusion of two Hero's Downfall seems at odds with the stress on fast removal (3 Ulcerate). Perhaps it was viewed as a way to be guaranteed to punch through something late game; I am not sure.
I think he belongs more in the Big Black Deck concept that I have been considering. Take the current mono-black aggro idea and move it up the curve a bunch. Use he same strategy of width with removal, but substitute some speed with power. Maybe add some graveyard stuff like Whip of Erebos to get card advantage since the games will be longer. It is FNM, so perfect time to experiment; keep us posted.
I think he belongs more in the Big Black Deck concept that I have been considering. Take the current mono-black aggro idea and move it up the curve a bunch. Use he same strategy of width with removal, but substitute some speed with power. Maybe add some graveyard stuff like Whip of Erebos to get card advantage since the games will be longer. It is FNM, so perfect time to experiment; keep us posted.
Yeah. While we have some disagreement about what is the #2 1 drop for this deck, it seems universal that Old One Arm is #1.
Would be nice for a more mid-range mba instead of a bunch of 1 drops just for a change of pace. Whats your ideas on it?. I was gonna build a pseudo MBD that sideboards into a MBA to kinda get that diversity, but decided to run my old newt/witch/cauldron combo paired with gift of immortality to screw with people on gameday.
#2 drop would more then likely would be Rakdos Cackler in all honesty because it has the ability to be a blocker or attacker. Does not enter tapped for when you draw it and have a Mogis's Marauder, but i personally prefer Tormented Hero just for the heroic.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
about the tormented hero, i dont like him as much as the cackler, because it comes into play tapped as the cackler does not and if you need a chump blocker cackler is way better. i now have 4 scarhides, 3 cacklers and 2 tormented hero.
1 Cackler cant block unless you leash him, which he is a lesser chumper because he'll hardly trade up.
2 If we need to chump late game with a Cackler, we're dead already.
Also thats an interesting deck list kinda surprised they picked tormented hero over scarhide
Nykthos and Ob Nixilis has no business being in an aggro deck with no way to tutor it out or ramp it by turn 3. You're looking at a devotion deck, which is different.
In my opinion, scarhide AND hero both need to be in the deck as 4 ofs.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Mutavault is out of standard in a about two months. If you are wanting to do bigger tournaments and give yourself the best chance of winning between now and the release of Khans of Tarkir (mid-September) then it is worth buying them. If you are just going to do FNM, Game Day and similar events, then you are looking at a pretty significant expense for only short term use. You can do just fine with this deck at lower level events. Obviously your money to spend, but they are going down in value now and will only continue to do so.
i'm intend to go in mid/low rated events only..gonna try my luck at a GPT this saturday, Gameday and perhaps some FNM between now and late September...i'll think during the week..tks!!
UR Twin - RIP
Average CMC including lands - 1.15. So each Pain Seer inspired trigger will cost us, on average that much life.
Average spell CMC - 1.82. Traditionally used to figure out how many lands you should be running.
Effective average spell CMC - 2.16. A computation I use that takes into account bestow, used for land computation. I estimate how often I bestow a card vs. cast it as a creature, do the maths and get how much mana I on average dedicate to that card. Spiteful Returned, for example, I bestow 3 times for every 1 time I cast it. So ((3x4)+(1x2))/4 = 3.5. So Spiteful Returned has an effective CMC of 3.5.
Not sure if anyone else will find this helpful, but this is how I sanity check my decks. Of course, Mutavault doesn't play like a normal land so it is hard to make any rules from these numbers.
Team, you're growing on me even though you keep pushing that damn Agent..
Honestly, here's what I'd do if I was in your shoes getting ready for an IQ (it's a WHOLE different ball game).
-1 Urborg. Just one brother, just one.
-2 Dark Betrayals in the side. You only need 2 if you have both Ultimate Price and Bile Blight.
+2 Duress in the side. C'mon, you know better than to leave this out of the 75.
-2 Pain Seer. I know, I know, but this isnt a block IQ. You need the extra Thrill-Kill and the extra Herald of Torment.
+2 Lifebane Zombie in the MAIN. You WILL see more green and g/w because that's the flavor of the month.
Try and squeeze in some Pharika's Cure. It's great not just for burn (to kill your own stuff like Tormented Hero.. see the combo) but it's swell vs other aggro. You'll see sligh and the mirror match. You need to be ready.
Also.. TRY and squeeze in a singleton of Tormod's Crypt. With such a diverse and unknown meta, ones and twos of in your side if what is needed. Just a card here or there to deal with stuff maybe you haven't seen before.
You're welcome
edit: Come to think about it, you could probably do 1 Dark Betrayal in the side to open up a spot for something else. And don't forget to side out those Master's against MBD.
I've been playing with green deck variants recently, but it's funny that when I reeeeally wanted that Bile Blight promo on the first of August, I went right for that familiar black deck and came in fourth overall, dust on the box and all. It's consistent, it's competitive and it's staying around for a long time.
Amen.
You'll come around one day. Probably when you bestow a Spiteful Returned on your own Agent and enjoy the rewards.
The list I posted is for Game Day at my LGS, not an IQ. Were I going to an IQ, I'd probably go back to my Agent Orange build that got me #1 seed for Top 8 at the SuperIQ, perhaps with a couple of tweaks to the sideboard.
Interesting. I feel like the chances of drawing two are slim enough and the upside of having one strong enough that running two is just fine. I wish there were some math on this one.
You are probably right and I will use those slots for....
...this. Yeah, you are right, 100%. Too many good spells in standard now not to take advantage of Duress while we still have it.
I think we will disagree here. Pain Seer is the best two drop we have thanks to your suggestion (IIRC) to add Boon of Erebos. Punch it through a blocker and then draw a card is fantastic. I am very reluctant to drop the Herald of Torment, but if I go back up to 4 of those, it won't be to take out Pain Seer.
I agree, but I want to try Master of the Feast. Were this an IQ, I'd be with you 100%, but since it is just Game Day and I haven't run the Master yet, I am willing to leave good old LBZ in the sideboard. Yeah, I am sure I will regret it when I get my face stomped by some G/W net deck, but this is 50% winning and 50% learning for me.
Maybe I will switch the 2 Ulcerate for 2 Pharika's Cure. Killing things and gaining life? Weird.
If someone brings a copy of the Conley Woods PT M15 zombie madness deck I will smile at the shenanigans and do the best I can. I think you are right that someone will try that, but I have never been a fan of singletons in the sideboard. I am of the opinion that in an aggro deck that usually only sees 1/4 of its deck, a singleton sideboard card is too much of a long shot.
As always, thanks. What are your plans for Game Day?
However there's an invitational coming up in my LGS where the prize is 500 cash and a case of m15 booster boxes. For that I'll run mono black aggro and totally change my sideboard out to something like I listed above. I'll list my list (-__-) when the tournament gets closer with results.
Bile Blight is the highest variance card in the deck. You have an otherwise good, two land hand, if one is a Mutavault, Bile Blight is useless until you draw that second swamp, at which point, it is often useless because it no longer kills anything. When you have two swamps and see two Elves, it is fantastic. I don't quite know what to do with it.
I do know that not running the full four Herald of Torment is not a good idea. It is so strong and so versatile, there isn't really a point in any game where I am not mana screwed that I don't want it. BostonSteve will want to kill me, but I think Thrill-Kill Assassin is going to come out to make room for Herald number 4. Thrill-Kill can be a pain for the opponent at times, but until you bestow on it, it is pretty low impact.
I still think Pain Seer is essential and am actually considering a third. On games that it triggers once, it is often very easy to get a second trigger thanks to the extra card. Pain Seer is absolutely a card that is like an avalanche that builds up momentum until it destroys everything in its path. That said, two in one hand can be risky, but as it is a removal magnet, I think a third would be OK. I just don't know what to take out.
Thoughtseize is terrible against monsters unless they keep a bad hand. You can use it early to strip their ramp, but then you lose tempo so it is like they ramp anyway as you haven't pressed an advantage. You hold onto it for later, and they have the mana to cast everything they have in hand so you simply get to choose how you die, not actually stop it. The only time I was happy with the card was: T1, 1 drop; T2 swing, Thoughtseize, 1 drop. Which of course requires 5 cards (2 one drops, Thoughtseize and two swamps in your opening hand) and is therefore very rare. Maybe I am missing something, but it is a poor fit in this deck for this kind of match up. I am debating on whether or not to move it to the sideboard since at an event like Game Day, most decks are pretty creature based.
I missed Crippling Blight much more than I thought I would. I think I need to recalibrate to play with a little more patience.
I didn't see Master of the Feast more than a couple of times and it certainly does work. But with Domri Rade and Xeangos, the Reveler as card advantage engines working against you, even versus a removal light deck, the downside is real.
tks a lot!!
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
17 Swamp
3 Radiant Fountain
Creatures: 28
4 Gnarled Scarhide
3 Rakdos Cackler
3 Tormented Hero
4 Pain Seer
4 Spiteful Returned
4 Herald of Torment
3 Mogis's Marauder
3 Master of the Feast
3 Thoughtseize
3 Boon of Erebos
1 Ultimate Price
3 Doom Blade
1 Bile Blight
2 Ultimate Price
1 Radiant Fountain
3 Lifebane Zombie
1 Thoughtseize
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Pharika's Cure
3 Duress
UR Twin - RIP
My experience has been different. Decks are now built to survive T1 Thoughtseize and with the large card pool we have now, that is pretty easy to do in almost any color combination. I have been working with my son so that his deck has this resilience, that he makes mulligan decisions conscious of Thoughtseize and I can say that testing last night it showed up.
That isn't to say Thoughtseize is universally bad, just that it isn't as good as it once was. Post rotation, I think it will be an auto 4 of, but right now, while it is consistently a good card, there are a growing number of matchups where there are better things to do. Also, having played in a couple of IQ Top8s and run up to the top table (and sent back down from it), I will opine that the better the opponent, the less impactful Thoughtseize is. I think the difference is that a good opponent can infer a lot of information about your hand based upon what you take while a less skilled opponent will not.
As a result, I don't think I will be running 4 in the main. 4 of in the 75 for sure, because, as you said, it is one of the top cards in standard.
This is a very good post, and in the interest of brevity, I will only mention areas of disagreement. Please do not think that I am being negative as I agree with most of what you say. Your suggested deck list has only 59 cards, btw.
I rank the one drops differently. Gnarled Scarhide is the best, we agree, but I think Tormented Hero comes second. The extra toughness of Rakdos Cackler only matters if we play against Elves while the Heroic trigger from Tormented Hero can matter in every matchup. I have won a game because Tormented Hero went unblocked, I used Boon of Erebos and did 5 instead of 4. Also, the red in Cackler doesn't play well with the intimidate of Mogis's Marauder
I agree with your take on Pain Seer, and you can look back as BostonSteve and I have discussed it at length with me pro, him con, however I disagree with your suggested list running four. As you said, it isn't a good late game top deck, and in my experience, it often isn't good in multiples, so I run either two or three. My best success is two Pain Seer and one Sign in Blood, although I could see going 2 and 2 or even 3 and 1 as well.
The 3CMC cards are really what make this deck go, I agree. I have just started testing Master of the Feast so I don't have as much data. I agree that we want one set of fliers (either Herald or Master) but I am a diehard Mogis's Marauder fan. Pancho Villa is without doubt responsible for more wins than any other card I have run and not having four in the main deck is, IMO, a mistake. Even if you are expecting to see a lot of black, it is still worth having. MBD rarely has a lot of blockers (Pack Rat is a miserable blocker because of the cascade effect) so the haste is still a big advantage. Against any other deck, the card is great at any point in the game. Needless to say, the best top deck late game, but also just fine to play on three as a way to ensure you get a Pain Seer inspired trigger. Pancho makes every card you have on the battlefield relevant again once the board has stalled. It is a one sided, one turn sweeper.
Happy to see someone else using Agent of the Fates in creature matchups. He really does a ton of work and although he isn't main deck at this point, I could very easily see a meta where he is the 9th and 10th 3 drop in the 60.
My opinion of Ulcerate is mixed, not all negative like yours. I like it in conjunction with Crippling Blight, but never more than two. It is a great card when you are on the draw and the game goes something like this:
OPP-T1: Forest, Experiment One
ME-T1: Swamp, Tormented Hero
OPP-T2: Plains, Fleecemane Lion, Swing 2 with Ex1
ME-T2: Swamp, Ulcerate the Lion, Swing 2, Gnarled Scarhide.
Yes, I am at 15, but just two turns into the game I am now ahead on board against another aggro deck while on the draw. That is very powerful and that is what Ulcerate gives you the ability to do. Now you can go to Crippling Blight, using only one mana, and continue to play out dudes and beat them down. This works against red decks too, although the life loss is obviously a bigger risk when facing burn.
That said, drawing an Ulcerate late game when you are low on life is terrible. It also quickly gets out classed in certain matchups (monsters). So narrow, but when it is good, it is very good. I think it would fit well in what you describe as the most aggro build using Pain Seer and Master of the Feast.
I feel that Bile Blight has the same "no middle ground" as Ulcerate. The BB cost is a pain early and it is rare that you want it late. I do like having it against decks that play Elspeth as they often tap out and hide behind a wall of tokens that for just 2 mana we can remove. So I would revise your sideboard guide to make Bile Blight removal vs control conditional.
Great post, and the fact that we don't agree on everything is good, in my opinion. The more well thought out opinions we have, the more it shows that we have a strong deck. If there is only one way to do things, I think it indicates less overall strength.
Only change I would make is go 2 Ultimate Price and 2 Doom Blade rather than 1/3 split as it means you have fewer dead cards should you see T1 Swamp across the table. Please make sure you post up results.
And the funny thing is, I was the first advocate FOR Pain Seer in this thread, and sadly just like Agent it had to be a casualty of the war. Too many good cards at it's cmc slot. Thrill-Kill is just more damage and trades up much better that the Seer. Post rotation, you can bet your butt the Seer comes right back.
And about Tormented Hero.. forget about the heroic enabler. Sometimes you just NEED to block a lethal attack. Only the Hero can do that. He's the only creature I'm really comfortable leaving back to block too. Spiteful Returned? Attack! Master of the Feast? Attack! You get the gist.
I think you need to see a doctor as this is twice in 24 hours that you have agreed with me. Either you are ill or I am seeing things. One of us needs medical attention, I am sure of it.
I always appreciate the disagreement we have here. I think it makes us all better. For example, I know that I would never have run Boon of Erebos were it not for what BostonSteve posted about it. That card has out right won matches for me and I consider it an essential part of my game plan.
I run a Esper Midrange as my main deck and have never really considered Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth of any use even when i play it myself or when an opponent uses it on me. All it does is fix my mana base early game one week and opponent gave me all 3 colors on turn 1, but around turn 4 i have all the colors i need for any combo in my deck anyways. Can't speak for jund though. What i find funny is everyone is trying to somehow use Radiant Fountain in there decks even though it's messing up most mana bases.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
I like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth a lot. It has helped me in a number of games already.
Yeah. Urborg is pretty great.
U/R Delver
Just found this article by Frank Karsten on Channelfireball's website. It's pretty interesting and there's a bit about mono-black aggro in there along with some matchup percentages.
*his version has relegated a playset of Thoughtseize to the sideboard.
*interestingly, he mainboards 3x Ulcerate
*No Master in the MB, with a playset of every creature, no Thrill-Kills, and a single Lifebane Zombie
*if I'm reading the percentages chart correctly (it's quite blurry) it looks like mono-black aggro performed fairly well in all the matchups.
U/R Delver
I don't believe that is the correct way to to think about it. We need swamps every game. There will be games when making all lands into swamps does nothing beneficial for our opponent. Based simply on that cocktail napkin analysis, Urborg will benefit us more than it helps our opposition. Furthermore, given that we strive to play a game of very few turns, being able to play Mutavault earlier and still cast what we want as soon as possible fits our overall strategy.
Thanks for the link. What a great article. It looks like Mono-Black Aggro had a winning record vs all decks except Black Devotion (and variants thereof), R/W Burn and G/W Aggro. It is the last on that list that I am most afraid of, BTW.
His analysis of Thoughtseize is similar to my own. There are too many matchups that playing to our game plan is much better than trying to disrupt theirs. That said, I will likely be running Thoughtseize main deck on Game Day because the event meta is all over the map, therefore the information gained from casting it is of much greater value than an IQ where I played the last few times. I would imagine that this becomes even more pronounced when you are a seasoned pro with strong knowledge of the format playing at Pro Tour against someone not named Conley Woods.
I think it is interesting that he runs only Pain Seer and no Thrill-Kill Assassin, but I think I can see why. His results table has at the very bottom % of expected field. No deck that plays early creatures accounts for a significant percentage. The deathtouch ability is great when there are guys on the field across from you, but if there isn't, Pain Seer's inspired trigger is superior.
To me, the biggest deal is that he runs 23 lands. I am not going to go so far as to say that he is wrong, but all my experience indicates that this is not the way to go. Depending upon configuration, the deck is best with 22 or even 21 lands. With the full 12 two power one drops and 4 one CMC non-creature spells, I would likely run 21 with that configuration, unless I had a very specific sideboard strategy.
Looking at the sideboard, I am not sure which matchup Desecration Demon is for but I have never thought that card fit in our deck. I would rather spend 4 mana bestowing to do more damage as it acts like haste, rather than casting a card that sits for a turn and then can be tapped down to buy time until removal is drawn. Unlike mono-black devotion, our deck doesn't have enough removal to make sure there isn't a creature available to tap the demon down.
Preach on brother Frank, preach on!
I am surprised to see no Ultimate Price anywhere in the 75. Also, the inclusion of two Hero's Downfall seems at odds with the stress on fast removal (3 Ulcerate). Perhaps it was viewed as a way to be guaranteed to punch through something late game; I am not sure.
Overall, great read and very thought provoking.
That is certainly not like any other I have seen posted here before.
Also thats an interesting deck list kinda surprised they picked tormented hero over scarhide
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
I think he belongs more in the Big Black Deck concept that I have been considering. Take the current mono-black aggro idea and move it up the curve a bunch. Use he same strategy of width with removal, but substitute some speed with power. Maybe add some graveyard stuff like Whip of Erebos to get card advantage since the games will be longer. It is FNM, so perfect time to experiment; keep us posted.
Yeah. While we have some disagreement about what is the #2 1 drop for this deck, it seems universal that Old One Arm is #1.
Would be nice for a more mid-range mba instead of a bunch of 1 drops just for a change of pace. Whats your ideas on it?. I was gonna build a pseudo MBD that sideboards into a MBA to kinda get that diversity, but decided to run my old newt/witch/cauldron combo paired with gift of immortality to screw with people on gameday.
#2 drop would more then likely would be Rakdos Cackler in all honesty because it has the ability to be a blocker or attacker. Does not enter tapped for when you draw it and have a Mogis's Marauder, but i personally prefer Tormented Hero just for the heroic.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
1 Cackler cant block unless you leash him, which he is a lesser chumper because he'll hardly trade up.
2 If we need to chump late game with a Cackler, we're dead already.
Nykthos and Ob Nixilis has no business being in an aggro deck with no way to tutor it out or ramp it by turn 3. You're looking at a devotion deck, which is different.
In my opinion, scarhide AND hero both need to be in the deck as 4 ofs.