The life loss means nothing with Gray Merchant of Asphodel lurking.
It's like making blue discard a card for Force of Will. It matters not when the same color can draw cards to replace it. The card just becomes broken.
The card is format warping in a way that certain decks are unplayable. This means aggro decks that run light on creatures. You're already getting 2 for 1'd by removal when you play auras and combat tricks and if you only have 2 creatures in a hand and your best one gets Thoughtseized away it's hard to recover.
Wizards hate printing undercosted counterspells yet will give black all these undercosted removal and discard spells.
They go straight up to 8 discard spells against decks that don't play into their removal with creatures.
It is my hope that once the following cards rotate this absolute fun killer of a deck will go out of fashion.
Of course, that must be the reason ! It's impossible that others (who suffer from getting Thoughtseized aswell without playing it themselves) would not constantly complain about it being overpowered, because they actually don't think it's overpowered !
I get Thoughtseized a bunch and I don't play the card myself because I currently don't play any B/x decks. Do I constantly whine and complain about it ? No. Why not ? Because I think it's a powerful card, but not overpowered.
Just like Sphinx's Revelation, Jace, Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere, Elspeth, Voice of Resurgance, Boros Reckoner, Chandra, Chandra's Phoenix, (soon) Brimaz, Grey Merchant, Whip of Erebos, Purphoros, Hammer of Purphoros, Bile Blight, Domri, Garruk, Xenagos, "Xenagod", Kalonian Hydra, Scavenging Oooze, Deathrite Shaman, Sylvan Caryatid, Chained to the Rocks, Boros Charm, Aetherling, Assemble the Legion, Brave the Elements, Xathrid Necromancer and two more dozen strong cards, I think it's ok in terms of power level.
I'm sure you represent a small percentage of people who happen to be aggreeable, which is fine. The fact is, many people complain about the card, and your opinion doesn't change that. I don't see nearly as many, if not any complaints about the cards you listed, which I happen to find fair. I believe if people invest their money in a product they have a right to complain. If enough people are vehemently opposed to the power level of a card, then it warrants a change. All other opinions are valid.
On the flip side to that, the is one group of complainers that rivals the number of those with thoughtseize complaints. And that's the "There's too much spot removal" group. And I'd venture to say that more than half of the complainers in both these groups are ones who aren't the kind that will simply adapt and play in such a manner that thoughtseize or spot removal is weaker or subpar against. If enough people are opposed to the power level of a card, house ban it. It doesn't mean that it needs a real ban or something of the like to cater to those who simply refuse to adapt to counter and instead want the things that bother them to magically be made to disappear.
I do not agree with how Wizards is doing to goodies distribution. However, people do need to learn to adapt. This is nowhere near the level of opressiveness that warrants an emergency ban.
As a RDW variant player, I like Thoughtseize and wish every mono-black player I face would mainboard 4 of them. My opponent pays 1 mana, loses 2 life, and loses a card just to see my hand (most of cards in RDW are pretty much the same anyways) and discard one of my non-land cards? Feel free to play as many as possible ;).
Thoughtseize is the cheapest card going around. It takes no skill whatsoever and completely wrecks average hands, let alone playable hands. For only 2 life and 1 mana, that's completely broken tier. If anything it should cost 5 life or 3 mana so decks have a chance to counter that disgusting turn 1 play.
This is absolutely not true. Thoughtseize is /very/ skill intensive, and also very fair. Still extremely powerful and not pleasant to play against, though.
As a RDW variant player, I like Thoughtseize and wish every mono-black player I face would mainboard 4 of them. My opponent pays 1 mana, loses 2 life, and loses a card just to see my hand (most of cards in RDW are pretty much the same anyways) and discard one of my non-land cards? Feel free to play as many as possible ;).
On the contrary, I really don't mind paying that small cost to remove your most dangerous thing to me. If I hit something like Spike Jester or Madcap Skills, it's 2 life to prevent 3 and upwards, which is solid.
Life is only a resource, after all, and what's the difference between winning with 1 or 10 life? Lately I've been liking deathrite in my sideboard anyways because junk reanimator cropped up like a fiend in my local meta, and I'd rather drop Deathrite turn 1 anyways.
I hope the print hymn to tourach and dark ritual in the next set hehe oh and small pox. So I can go turn 1: dark ritual thoughtseize, hymn to tourach, and then say go. turn 2: small pox and go.
The life loss means nothing with Gray Merchant of Asphodel lurking.
It's like making blue discard a card for Force of Will. It matters not when the same color can draw cards to replace it. The card just becomes broken.
The card is format warping in a way that certain decks are unplayable. This means aggro decks that run light on creatures. You're already getting 2 for 1'd by removal when you play auras and combat tricks and if you only have 2 creatures in a hand and your best one gets Thoughtseized away it's hard to recover.
Wizards hate printing undercosted counterspells yet will give black all these undercosted removal and discard spells.
They go straight up to 8 discard spells against decks that don't play into their removal with creatures.
It is my hope that once the following cards rotate this absolute fun killer of a deck will go out of fashion.
I find this post amusing. So you want EVERY spot removal, discard, and good creature gone from black. You do know they will print new versions of most of these cards right? Last year was appetite for brains and victim of night.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Thoughtseize while being a strong card, is fine in standard. Its actually much weaker in standard than in Modern/Legacy due to the slolwer nature of the format and lack of combo.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=ST
Its not even in the top5 most played cards in standard. Mutavault is played in twice as many decks as thoughtseize.
Thoughtseize can be easily defeated by jamming threats into your deck/ playing card draw engines/ playing aggro.
Theres no way its ever going to be banned
This is absolutely not true. Thoughtseize is /very/ skill intensive, and also very fair. Still extremely powerful and not pleasant to play against, though.
Thoughtseize while being a strong card, is fine in standard. Its actually much weaker in standard than in Modern/Legacy due to the slolwer nature of the format and lack of combo.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=ST
Its not even in the top5 most played cards in standard. Mutavault is played in twice as many decks as thoughtseize.
Thoughtseize can be easily defeated by jamming threats into your deck/ playing card draw engines/ playing aggro.
Theres no way its ever going to be banned
Non Sequitur. And by your reasoning Wizards should unban Jace TMS because."(Insert Word Here) can be easily defeated by jamming threats into your deck or playing card draw engines or playing aggro, brah."
There is nothing remotely fair about looking at an opponents hand, and ripping out any card of your choice, before they even get a chance to say glhf.
Non Sequitur. And by your reasoning Wizards should unban Jace TMS because."(Insert Word Here) can be easily defeated by jamming threats into your deck or playing card draw engines or playing aggro, brah."
Thoughtseize is a single, one-time proactive answer to a single card.
Something like Jace is a continuous stream of overwhelming advantage.
The two are incomparable. Thoughtseize hits one card, so against a hand full of threats, it doesn't hinder their gameplan too much. It's also a pretty awful topdeck when your opponent's in topdeck mode (barring turning it into a Pack Rat), so an aggro deck can theoretically gain virtual card advantage by emptying their hand as quickly as possible and turning drawn Thoughtseizes into blanks. It's also incapable of stopping threats once they hit the board, unlike something such as Jace, which is massively advantageous in nearly any game state.
Thoughtseize is a single, one-time proactive answer to a single card.
Something like Jace is a continuous stream of overwhelming advantage.
The two are incomparable. Thoughtseize hits one card, so against a hand full of threats, it doesn't hinder their gameplan too much. It's also a pretty awful topdeck when your opponent's in topdeck mode (barring turning it into a Pack Rat), so an aggro deck can theoretically gain virtual card advantage by emptying their hand as quickly as possible and turning drawn Thoughtseizes into blanks. It's also incapable of stopping threats once they hit the board, unlike something such as Jace, which is massively advantageous in nearly any game state.
So by that logic ban all counterspells, discard and removal in general.
n1 but u are doing it wrong, read carefully and try again.
My original post about Jace wasn't a comparison between him and Thoughtseize. The key word little buddy was trying to say was "adapt." I was merely providing an example.
Last time I checked, Thoughtseize was the discard card of choice, not mind rot.
n1 but u are doing it wrong, read carefully and try again.
My original post about Jace wasn't a comparison between him and Thoughtseize. The key word little buddy was trying to say was "adapt." I was merely providing an example.
Last time I checked, Thoughtseize was the discard card of choice, not mind rot.
Troll harder brother.
Didn't your "dad" make a post saying we were being too mean to you? I would watch throwing the word troll around. Would hate for someone to respond and upset you.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
And you proved the point on why Thoughtseize is skill intensive.
I'd take the pyromancer so the DD still works.
I think I would take the Lightning Strike in that situation.
Without it his pyromancer is useless and he would just trade with my turn 2 pack rat but he would be forced to play chained to rocks on turn 2 anyway because he cant beat a pack rat.
Which leaves me with a removal spell still in hand which can kill his followup and lead into an empty board for my demon.
That is a totally unfair comparison as Mutavault can be played in pretty much every deck while you need black sources to cast Thoughtseize.
You missed the point, which was that Thoughtseize is only played in 34% of the meta. This indicates that there are clearly other viable strategies - for example U/W control and MonoU.
Non Sequitur. And by your reasoning Wizards should unban Jace TMS because."(Insert Word Here) can be easily defeated by jamming threats into your deck or playing card draw engines or playing aggro, brah."
There is nothing remotely fair about looking at an opponents hand, and ripping out any card of your choice, before they even get a chance to say glhf.
JTMS and Stoneforge Mystic were banned because all successful decks played them. They made up >80% of the meta, were ridiculously overpowered and there was not a viable strategy to combat them.
Thoughtseize is a modern staple, and was reprinted with knowledge of its power level. It currently is played in 34% of the meta and there are viable strategies to combat the card - which I have already outlined for you.
Its good that wizards are printing powerful cards such as Thoughtseize. Much better than when they print a weak set like Born of the Gods.
Instead of complaining about powerful cards being printed in standard, you should build a powerful deck to combat them:thumbsup:
Instead of complaining about powerful cards being printed in standard, you should build a powerful deck to combat them:thumbsup:
"Instead of complaining about powerful cards being printed in standard, you should be complaining about crap cards bring printed in standard." Fixed it for you ;).
I'm not gonna get into it like the last thread. I'm just going to say that Thoughtseize is a fair card. It is powerful, but fair. Anyone who bellyaches as much about it as some posters here needs to improve either their deck-building or card evaluation skills. Or learn to accept the fact that it's OK to have powerful cards in standard.
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I play aggro and I have a highly favorable matchup against black. Not sure what the issue is here.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I'm sure you represent a small percentage of people who happen to be aggreeable, which is fine. The fact is, many people complain about the card, and your opinion doesn't change that. I don't see nearly as many, if not any complaints about the cards you listed, which I happen to find fair. I believe if people invest their money in a product they have a right to complain. If enough people are vehemently opposed to the power level of a card, then it warrants a change. All other opinions are valid.
I do not agree with how Wizards is doing to goodies distribution. However, people do need to learn to adapt. This is nowhere near the level of opressiveness that warrants an emergency ban.
This is absolutely not true. Thoughtseize is /very/ skill intensive, and also very fair. Still extremely powerful and not pleasant to play against, though.
On the contrary, I really don't mind paying that small cost to remove your most dangerous thing to me. If I hit something like Spike Jester or Madcap Skills, it's 2 life to prevent 3 and upwards, which is solid.
Life is only a resource, after all, and what's the difference between winning with 1 or 10 life? Lately I've been liking deathrite in my sideboard anyways because junk reanimator cropped up like a fiend in my local meta, and I'd rather drop Deathrite turn 1 anyways.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
I find this post amusing. So you want EVERY spot removal, discard, and good creature gone from black. You do know they will print new versions of most of these cards right? Last year was appetite for brains and victim of night.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=ST
Its not even in the top5 most played cards in standard. Mutavault is played in twice as many decks as thoughtseize.
Thoughtseize can be easily defeated by jamming threats into your deck/ playing card draw engines/ playing aggro.
Theres no way its ever going to be banned
Excluding MonoU. Which is combo or synergy? I can never tell.
Oh and D.Sphere sucks too.
Please elaborate.
Non Sequitur. And by your reasoning Wizards should unban Jace TMS because."(Insert Word Here) can be easily defeated by jamming threats into your deck or playing card draw engines or playing aggro, brah."
There is nothing remotely fair about looking at an opponents hand, and ripping out any card of your choice, before they even get a chance to say glhf.
Thoughtseize is a single, one-time proactive answer to a single card.
Something like Jace is a continuous stream of overwhelming advantage.
The two are incomparable. Thoughtseize hits one card, so against a hand full of threats, it doesn't hinder their gameplan too much. It's also a pretty awful topdeck when your opponent's in topdeck mode (barring turning it into a Pack Rat), so an aggro deck can theoretically gain virtual card advantage by emptying their hand as quickly as possible and turning drawn Thoughtseizes into blanks. It's also incapable of stopping threats once they hit the board, unlike something such as Jace, which is massively advantageous in nearly any game state.
It's very powerful, but it's far from unfair.
But, what good is Jace, if I can't even play him?
So by that logic ban all counterspells, discard and removal in general.
n1 but u are doing it wrong, read carefully and try again.
My original post about Jace wasn't a comparison between him and Thoughtseize. The key word little buddy was trying to say was "adapt." I was merely providing an example.
Last time I checked, Thoughtseize was the discard card of choice, not mind rot.
Troll harder brother.
It's very easy to choose the wrong target.
For instance, you're playing a stock mono black devotion list against a pyrowhite deck. You play T1TSU. You see:
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Chained to the Rocks
1x Young Pyromancer
2x Ash Zealot
1x Mountain
1x Lightning Strike
The 5 cards remaining in your hand (remember, you played swamp and TS):
1x Desecration Demon
1x Ultimate Price
1x Pack Rat
2x Swamp
What do you take and why?
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Didn't your "dad" make a post saying we were being too mean to you? I would watch throwing the word troll around. Would hate for someone to respond and upset you.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
I think chained is the card I would take. The only answer to the demon.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
And you proved the point on why Thoughtseize is skill intensive.
I'd take the pyromancer so the DD still works.
I think I would take the Lightning Strike in that situation.
Without it his pyromancer is useless and he would just trade with my turn 2 pack rat but he would be forced to play chained to rocks on turn 2 anyway because he cant beat a pack rat.
Which leaves me with a removal spell still in hand which can kill his followup and lead into an empty board for my demon.
You missed the point, which was that Thoughtseize is only played in 34% of the meta. This indicates that there are clearly other viable strategies - for example U/W control and MonoU.
JTMS and Stoneforge Mystic were banned because all successful decks played them. They made up >80% of the meta, were ridiculously overpowered and there was not a viable strategy to combat them.
Thoughtseize is a modern staple, and was reprinted with knowledge of its power level. It currently is played in 34% of the meta and there are viable strategies to combat the card - which I have already outlined for you.
Its good that wizards are printing powerful cards such as Thoughtseize. Much better than when they print a weak set like Born of the Gods.
Instead of complaining about powerful cards being printed in standard, you should build a powerful deck to combat them:thumbsup:
"Instead of complaining about powerful cards being printed in standard, you should be complaining about crap cards bring printed in standard." Fixed it for you ;).
I'm not gonna get into it like the last thread. I'm just going to say that Thoughtseize is a fair card. It is powerful, but fair. Anyone who bellyaches as much about it as some posters here needs to improve either their deck-building or card evaluation skills. Or learn to accept the fact that it's OK to have powerful cards in standard.