I'm going into control but I dont know where to start, I also know that control isn't the best archtype to build on a budget but I'll give it a try, I can also improve that deck later on.
I like counterspells, creature removals, I was thinking maybe B/U/R but I dont know if it exists, I'm newbie
I'm going into control but I dont know where to start, I also know that control isn't the best archtype to build on a budget but I'll give it a try, I can also improve that deck later on.
I like counterspells, creature removals, I was thinking maybe B/U/R but I dont know if it exists, I'm newbie
Thanks in advance.
That's Grixis. It sees some fringe play but is a lower tiered control strategy in this environment. The real question is how you plan to run a 3 color control deck on a budget. You do know that the shock lands are considered essential in these builds, right?
I guess Ral Zarek is a cheap way to go right now. Ashiok isn't too expensive either, but I wouldn't call either of those budget. Any control deck with Black right now wants to run Thoughtseize (you could use Duress out of the sideboard as a budget substitute).
Your removal and finishers are generally cheap and your mana base is really good. You still have access to good counters and can really flesh the list out as you go along.
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My SB is more expensive than the entire deck itself, but there a lots of other options there.
The deck really rewards good piloting and takes a LOT of practice to get the hang of. You have to cast Steam Augury about 100 times before you understand how it works best, and it's the single most important card in the deck.
omenspeaker is basically a block ready Ponder, dispel will shut down heroes downfall, doom blade etc, pithing needle will end pack rats deck immediately, burning hart is for more mana, they're running nyx....control is mana heavy. card advantage is also nice with divination.
and the PTQ stuff that was mostly sideboarded, they immediately went for these cheapo cards though after round 1
obviously your win condition is mono-blue/mill rather than master of waves-> beat down like these guys all are running but thats what you get for paying a fraction of what these dudes pay.
Encroaching Wastes is just nykthos hate. lets be honest, everyone has at least one in their deck except us "dumbass casuals"
warning though, you really have to be able to know what your opponent is playing to pull off control. I originally built my brother this deck, but he barely plays magic, so most of his moves were "wrong" and played this deck wrong.
But when i play it i can beat my own mono-green deck rather easily.
alot of the high dollar cards are kind of cruise control to win, this cheapo deck is like a balancing act of taking damage, keeping creatures that will kill you tapped down, and maintaining a mana and card advantage with broken cards like nykthos and underworld connections avalible to those with money to throw into a cardgame
There's actually quite a few value cards in here. Mutavaults are $30 and really have no replacement. Watery Grave, Hero's Downfall, Temples, Jace, Master of Waves, Thoughtseize without considering the sideboard. If there was a way for OP to get the Mutavaults for free (borrowing from someone) then I could see a half decent $150 list.
Revelation, Jace and Elspeth are hardly budget friendly cards.
Once we start to invest some money this starts to change though.
Oh please. As if non-budget U/B didn't have JAT, Ashiok, Thoughtseize and Hero's Downfall.
Not even considering that non-budget U/B isn't really on the same tier as U/W, maybe first think how hard it is to budgetize compared to U/W and how crippled the end-result is going to be.
The low cost of Supreme Verdict alone easily makes budget U/W superior to anything you can come up with in U/B right now. And for the record, I have been keeping some form of semi-budget U/B control since SoM so it's not like I haven't tried to do it myself.
Yeah lets start with an aetherling over master of waves. What devotion does this have to help master out? None really....I am curious to see the matchups.
Rakdos Control is probably the cheapest deck on a budget right now that is legitimately viable. Izzet Control is possible as well but I dont think it is nearly as good as Rakdos
Anger of the Gods $1ish
Rakdos Return (Going up get them NOW) $4-5
Blood Crypt $7ish
Gray Merchant its a common
Underworld Connections $3
Thoughtseize $14 (Not really a budget option)
Dreadbore $3
Whip of Erebos $1
Rakdos Keyrune basically free
Yeah lets start with an aetherling over master of waves. What devotion does this have to help master out? None really....I am curious to see the matchups.
That deck runs Jace, Ashiok, Domestication, and Sphinx for devotion. Just having a Jace out and slamming a master gives you 3 tokens. Thats nothing to sneeze at.
Oh please. As if non-budget U/B didn't have JAT, Ashiok, Thoughtseize and Hero's Downfall.
Not even considering that non-budget U/B isn't really on the same tier as U/W, maybe first think how hard it is to budgetize compared to U/W and how crippled the end-result is going to be.
The low cost of Supreme Verdict alone easily makes budget U/W superior to anything you can come up with in U/B right now. And for the record, I have been keeping some form of semi-budget U/B control since SoM so it's not like I haven't tried to do it myself.
Considering the fact that it'll take a little time to gather or order and that BNG will likely be out by the time the OP has all the stuff ready, I disagree.
Azorius expensive tools
Elspeth
Jace AOT
Sphinx's revelation
Mutavault
Azorius cheap tools
Detention sphere
Supreme verdict (a semi-expensive cheap tool but still more cheap)
Azxorius charm
Aetherling
Dimir expensive tools
Jace AOT
Ashiok (Actually not so bad anymore)
Thoughtseize
Hero's downfall
Mutavault
Dimir cheap tools
Far // away
Opportunity
Spot removal of various types
Aetherling
There's an important difference here. Azorius' best replacement for sphinx's revelation is opportunity. It has no replacement for Elspeth, Jace, or mutavault. Dimir more easily replaces Jace AOT with the cheaper but more win condition heavy style of using Jace MA. Azorius can do this too but has less tools to tick with it. Ashiok you may just shell out for but assuming you don't (shelling out for one might not be a bad idea), you'll still have the general idea with Jace MA. Thoughtseize has no replacement unless your meta has a ton of control and not much aggro (in which case you'd use duress) but this can be sort of substituted with counters/removal. It isn't as good but it is different than lacking one of your win conditions. Hero's downfall would be replaced by spot removal, noticeably losing the ability to shoot down planeswalkers. This is hardly irrelevant but budget control will simply have this problem usually and for that, pithing needles will make their way into the sideboard.
The difference between the two is that Azorius loses most of its stabilizing agents (almost to the point where you draw supreme verdict or you don't stabilize) whereas Dimir is just a little weaker around the board, focusing on the aggro and control matchups while losing out on some flexibility. Dimir is definitely better in a budgety control sense, especially after AOG. Just because UW is a higher tier deck in its full cost glory and that UB is less so in its full cost glory doesn't mean that UW is going to be stronger than UB in budget. The fact that dimir has better cheapo replacements while UW really has nothing that can replace those expensive components is a lot more important.
Well I'm also considering the fact that I can add the planeswalkers and expensive cards later, so thats not really a problem, I just want something that I can start to have fun with right now.
Maybe Will go after U/B, since I cant afford the shocklands right now. I'm not a fan of listings, not extremely competitive either, so I dont care about the result now, just about the fun, and as things goes I'll start to add the expensive cards later one by one
If you want to play a budget control deck, the best -card- period on a budget is Slaughter Games, it can literally de-claw a deck if you call the right target.
For that reason, I agree with B/R for control.
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There's an important difference here. Azorius' best replacement for sphinx's revelation is opportunity. It has no replacement for Elspeth, Jace, or mutavault. Dimir more easily replaces Jace AOT with the cheaper but more win condition heavy style of using Jace MA.
Let's remove bias and disregard cards that appear and would appear in both decks. There is nothing in U/B that would push JMA above (or even on the same level as) JAoT. Both lose JAoT, both cannot replace him with JMA because he serves a different purpose. Both can run JMA if they choose to do so. Losing Sphinx Rev is hardly relevant to this discussion as U/B doesn't have anything better than Opportunity anyway. Same with Mutavault. So really, based on your list it's U/W losing Elspeth vs U/B losing Hero's Downfall & Thoughtseize.
Hero's downfall would be replaced by spot removal, noticeably losing the ability to shoot down planeswalkers. This is hardly irrelevant but budget control will simply have this problem usually.
The difference between the two is that Azorius loses most of its stabilizing agents (almost to the point where you draw supreme verdict or you don't stabilize) whereas Dimir is just a little weaker around the board
And what does U/B have to stabilize that U/W doesn't? Spot removal is it's only edge and White can easily compensate. On the other hand there is nothing in Black right now that comes remotely close to Verdict. Hell, even Yoked Ox is better than any low cost defensive creature U/B can come up with.
Just because UW is a higher tier deck in its full cost glory and that UB is less so in its full cost glory doesn't mean that UW is going to be stronger than UB in budget.
Automatically yes, it doesn't. But it also doesn't mean that whatever advantage U/W had before budgetizing is suddenly gone. I can go on and on about this but really, I agree that what you end up with in the end is what matters. So are you really saying that access to Ashiok and a bunch of spells with bonus mill is better for control than access to Verdict and D. Sphere? Come on now.
Rakdos Control is probably the cheapest deck on a budget right now that is legitimately viable. Izzet Control is possible as well but I dont think it is nearly as good as Rakdos
Anger of the Gods $1ish
Rakdos Return (Going up get them NOW) $4-5
Blood Crypt $7ish
Gray Merchant its a common
Underworld Connections $3
Thoughtseize $14 (Not really a budget option)
Dreadbore $3
Whip of Erebos $1
Rakdos Keyrune basically free
That deck runs Jace, Ashiok, Domestication, and Sphinx for devotion. Just having a Jace out and slamming a master gives you 3 tokens. Thats nothing to sneeze at.
No one was sneezing, was answering the question of how to budgetize.
All of those cards are being mentioned in a budget forum. Budget.
Let's remove bias and disregard cards that appear and would appear in both decks. There is nothing in U/B that would push JMA above (or even on the same level as) JAoT. Both lose JAoT, both cannot replace him with JMA because he serves a different purpose. Both can run JMA if they choose to do so. Losing Sphinx Rev is hardly relevant to this discussion as U/B doesn't have anything better than Opportunity anyway. Same with Mutavault. So really, based on your list it's U/W losing Elspeth vs U/B losing Hero's Downfall & Thoughtseize.
U/W still has Detention Sphere.
And what does U/B have to stabilize that U/W doesn't? Spot removal is it's only edge and White can easily compensate. On the other hand there is nothing in Black right now that comes remotely close to Verdict. Hell, even Yoked Ox is better than any low cost defensive creature U/B can come up with.
Automatically yes, it doesn't. But it also doesn't mean that whatever advantage U/W had before budgetizing is suddenly gone. I can go on and on about this but really, I agree that what you end up with in the end is what matters. So are you really saying that access to Ashiok and a bunch of spells with bonus mill is better for control than access to Verdict and D. Sphere? Come on now.
No, nothing in UB would push Jace MA over Jace AOT. However, UB can push a mill type theme without severely harming itself in a budgeteer version as it can play a number of cards that mill but are not dedicated strictly to it. UW has zero support for that, leaving Jace MA working alone. Jace AOT is also more valuable to a deck with a strict sweeper like supreme verdict. That's UW's camp where UB is more 1 for 1 ish in general.
If you think losing sphinx's revelation is nothing, take a reality check because by that reasoning, losing Elspeth is nothing. This must be so because UB has nothing like Elspeth. Obviously, this is completely untrue and a fallacy but your logic that losing sphinx's revelation is nothing falls through the floor that badly. UB may not have the amazing draw spell that UW has but it has much more stable spot removal, sideboardable cheap hand hate, and another direction to go that can be done with less pricy resources. We're not talking about "Just sub thoughtseizes for duresses and call it a day". I'm saying that you can do a lot more with UB on a budget.
Yeah, UW has detention sphere. Its great. But let's look at your control package. Detention sphere, supreme verdict, azorius charm... and you're down to counters plus maybe celestial flare. That means that your answers to things on the board severely shrank. UB, on the other hand, has plenty of spot removal to go around. Doom blade, ultimate price, far // away, devour flesh, dimir charm, warped physique... And when BNG comes out, they'll have drown in sorrow and bile blight. So UW has better answers to planeswalkers... but to do it, it requires using one of only a few cards that it has to answer threats on the board. UB handles the absence of Jace AOT much better than UW does. UW takes some hits, stabilizes, and gains it back in sphinx's revs. UB tends to just try to not lose that life in the first place.
Yoked Ox. Dimir has nothing at cmc 1 that matches Yoked Ox. However, it does have a whole lot more answers on turn 2 than Azorius does and it has a fairly reasonable blocker in returned phalanx which actually kills things and lives where Yoked Ox only blocks. It is also a road block that the opponent has to actually deal with. Azorius will eventually kill their ox (though sometimes it is worth the aggro player's time to kill beforehand) with supreme verdict as the situation will only worsen given time. Dimir will never have to kill returned phalanx. Rather, they will make the opponent kill it. The point is that Azorius will need to. Dimir has a commodity that can actually slowly solve the problems on the board (as opposed to placating them) and it is a commodity that the opponent has much more interest in shooting down. And no, don't give me that "Lightning strike exists" BS. That's like saying that creatures are bad because kill spells exist. They only have 4 lightning strikes. Make them draw it and make them prove they have it.
So to summarize, UW sphinx's revelation, Elspeth, and Jace AOT, 3 cards that carry it in any matchup whether it is aggro, midrange, or control. Functionally, these three cards are irreplaceable. UB lost thoughtseize (mainly for midrange and control matchups but against the latter, it gets back something almost as good from the sideboard in Duress). It also lost Jace AOT which is very strong in prettymuch any matchup. And it lost hero's downfall which is irreplaceable but not important against aggro (In fact, replacing it with another spot removal would result in a better exchange on the aggro end). The things that UW lost were all vital to its gameplan in all matchups and none were replaceable (unless you call opportunity a replacement for Sphinx's revelation but the typical UW control player will just laugh and tell you that while its the next best thing, you must be joking). UB mostly lost cards that it can compensate for and the replacements for said cards were weaker in two matchups but stronger in another (specifically aggro being the matchups that wins out in the case of thoughtseize and hero's downfall's replacements). This is a big difference in comparison to just being weaker all around the board.
The point is that UW without Walkers, mutavaults, and Revelations is still fairly playable and can win plenty of games just with Sphere/Verdict/AEtherling. UB without any expensive cards looks literally unplayable, and even without a budget isn't much better. So it's between playing a neutered top tier deck, losing some bomb and powerhouse cards but keeping all the core utility cards; and playing a neutered tier-2 deck that loses not only the bombs but also most of the utility as well.
Also, of course Revelation is infinitely better than Opportunity. No one is disputing that. But it's a moot point because UB doesn't even get the OPTION. It's stuck with the third rate version as it's best-in-slot. So comparing UW losing Rev for Opportunity to UB keeping Opportunity is still in UW's favor. Not to mention, if the player builds budget UW and manages to obtain a Rev later down the road, it's infinitely better to just slot it in over an Opportunity than it would be to build budget UB and have nowhere to go from there except sidegrade some utility cards.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
If you think losing sphinx's revelation is nothing, take a reality check because by that reasoning, losing Elspeth is nothing. This must be so because UB has nothing like Elspeth. Obviously, this is completely untrue and a fallacy but your logic that losing sphinx's revelation is nothing falls through the floor that badly.
Like I said, irrelevant to the discussion - it's about which deck is better on a budget, not which deck loses more power.
Yeah, UW has detention sphere. Its great. But let's look at your control package. Detention sphere, supreme verdict, azorius charm... and you're down to counters plus maybe celestial flare. That means that your answers to things on the board severely shrank. UB, on the other hand, has plenty of spot removal to go around. Doom blade, ultimate price, far // away, devour flesh, dimir charm, warped physique...
We both know that white has more than just celestial flare.
And when BNG comes out, they'll have drown in sorrow and bile blight.
As happy as I am about those cards being spoiled, they are right now, irrelevant. We're not talking about what U/B could be when BNG comes to Standard.
Yoked Ox. Dimir has nothing at cmc 1 that matches Yoked Ox. However, it does have a whole lot more answers on turn 2 than Azorius does and it has a fairly reasonable blocker in returned phalanx which actually kills things and lives where Yoked Ox only blocks.
The things that UW lost were all vital to its gameplan in all matchups and none were replaceable (unless you call opportunity a replacement for Sphinx's revelation but the typical UW control player will just laugh and tell you that while its the next best thing, you must be joking). UB mostly lost cards that it can compensate for and the replacements for said cards were weaker in two matchups but stronger in another (specifically aggro being the matchups that wins out in the case of thoughtseize and hero's downfall's replacements). This is a big difference in comparison to just being weaker all around the board.
I've already said it, but the discussion is not about which deck loses more power. You saying that U/B is better because it only loses a little isn't any more valid than me saying that U/W is because it starts with a lot. And this whole "what UW lost were all vital" is just confirmation bias. I can argue all day that what UB loses are just as vital, but there's the Dimir Control thread in Established for that. White can compensate for spot removal if needed. Opportunity isn't any better in U/B than it is in U/W no matter how you twist things around. I'll give you JMA being mildly better in U/B, but really, I know you know the reason he is seeing play is because he does work alone.
I get the feeling you're just being argumentative now, what with mentioning cards that aren't in Standard yet and being selective about White's other control options and that's fine, I'm also argumentative sometimes. But I no longer have the desire to continue after this so I'll just agree that you disagree.
Esper tends to side 0-2 Jace MA. Remember that you're talking about a deck that typically mainboards 4 Jace AOT which is a plenty good reason to not be using Jace MA. But what you're working with here is the exact opposite situation, one where there is no Jace AOT. The lack of a better conflicting card changes the ball game.
What the deck loses is very relevant to the discussion. It is not the entire argument but the point is that tiers in non budget are completely irrelevant. (which you mentioned in post 10). UW may not lose supreme verdict to budget but it loses the support shell that makes it tick. Jace helps force the opponent to overextend and can dig for your supreme verdict. Sphinx's revelation allows UW to wait longer on that supreme verdict and dig out new ones. Elspeth allows UW to sit back and relax as the tokens help stabilize post verdict, a fact that's relevant in the event that you only get one. One verdict often isn't enough to shut aggro out. Meaning that what you have left is a great card but face the absence of its support crew.
So let's see... What does white have beyond celestial flare? Pacifism, arrest, blind obedience... Last breath? Yes, it does have some. Let's not pretend that this works well. UW will have to but it will not work that well.
Fair enough that bile blight and drown in sorrow haven't come out yet... aside the fact that by the time the OP could put something together, they will be out. So in a technical sense, no they don't matter but in terms of actual application, they do.
UW on a budget can try not to lose life in the first place but is ill-equipped in comparison. It can try. It will be far less successful at it. You place high value on supreme verdict. Supreme verdict is a card where you want to force as much over-extension as possible and then gain big card advantage with its use. If you're sticking your deck chalk full of pacifisms, celestial flares, and whatnot, how much value will that supreme verdict even have? The answer is that it'll rarely garner the kinds of card advantage blowouts that make it good. So UW can try to do it and it may even be somewhat successful but it'll come at the cost of the big advantage that's normally gained by its sweeper.
If you want frostburn weird instead of phalanx, be my guest. However, I imagine you'll have a small bit of trouble hitting all those blues in a deck that requires so many double whites and returned phalanx does its job without extra expenditures.
What the decks lose is again very important but if you'd like me to put it another way, Dimir's main gameplay style is left close to untouched while UW is bent out of shape by trying to conform to a style of play that dimir does better. Opportunity is not better in UB than UW but UW relies on Sphinx's revelation whereas Dimir's game plan functions without the life stabilization. You can call it twisting as much as you want but Opportunity does what UB needs it to do. It doesn't do what UW needs it to do.
I'm being slightly argumentative but I have no bias on the matter. Being selective on white's control options has purpose. It is because trying to lose less life in the first place with spot removal steps on the toes of the usual UW gameplan, sending it into a game of spot removal that UB just does better. Supreme verdict is a great card but it is amazing when you 3 for 1 or 4 for 1 with it. It is not so amazing when you 2 for 1 or 3 for 2. But if you try to compensate for the budget with more spot removal, that's exactly what you'll end up with.
If you want to play a budget control deck, the best -card- period on a budget is Slaughter Games, it can literally de-claw a deck if you call the right target.
For that reason, I agree with B/R for control.
I like counterspells, creature removals, I was thinking maybe B/U/R but I dont know if it exists, I'm newbie
Thanks in advance.
That's Grixis. It sees some fringe play but is a lower tiered control strategy in this environment. The real question is how you plan to run a 3 color control deck on a budget. You do know that the shock lands are considered essential in these builds, right?
I guess Ral Zarek is a cheap way to go right now. Ashiok isn't too expensive either, but I wouldn't call either of those budget. Any control deck with Black right now wants to run Thoughtseize (you could use Duress out of the sideboard as a budget substitute).
Your removal and finishers are generally cheap and your mana base is really good. You still have access to good counters and can really flesh the list out as you go along.
This being the budget thread...no.
Revelation, Jace and Elspeth are hardly budget friendly cards.
Once we start to invest some money this starts to change though.
The only cards that cost more than $1.50 are Mizzium Mortars and Cyclonic Rift, and those can easily be replaced with commons like Lightning Strike and Voyage's End.
My SB is more expensive than the entire deck itself, but there a lots of other options there.
The deck really rewards good piloting and takes a LOT of practice to get the hang of. You have to cast Steam Augury about 100 times before you understand how it works best, and it's the single most important card in the deck.
omenspeaker is basically a block ready Ponder, dispel will shut down heroes downfall, doom blade etc, pithing needle will end pack rats deck immediately, burning hart is for more mana, they're running nyx....control is mana heavy. card advantage is also nice with divination.
most of this decklist is just taken from like 5 of these blue decks.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/events.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptths13/Top_Standard_Decks
and the PTQ stuff that was mostly sideboarded, they immediately went for these cheapo cards though after round 1
obviously your win condition is mono-blue/mill rather than master of waves-> beat down like these guys all are running but thats what you get for paying a fraction of what these dudes pay.
Encroaching Wastes is just nykthos hate. lets be honest, everyone has at least one in their deck except us "dumbass casuals"
warning though, you really have to be able to know what your opponent is playing to pull off control. I originally built my brother this deck, but he barely plays magic, so most of his moves were "wrong" and played this deck wrong.
But when i play it i can beat my own mono-green deck rather easily.
alot of the high dollar cards are kind of cruise control to win, this cheapo deck is like a balancing act of taking damage, keeping creatures that will kill you tapped down, and maintaining a mana and card advantage with broken cards like nykthos and underworld connections avalible to those with money to throw into a cardgame
There's actually quite a few value cards in here. Mutavaults are $30 and really have no replacement. Watery Grave, Hero's Downfall, Temples, Jace, Master of Waves, Thoughtseize without considering the sideboard. If there was a way for OP to get the Mutavaults for free (borrowing from someone) then I could see a half decent $150 list.
Oh please. As if non-budget U/B didn't have JAT, Ashiok, Thoughtseize and Hero's Downfall.
Not even considering that non-budget U/B isn't really on the same tier as U/W, maybe first think how hard it is to budgetize compared to U/W and how crippled the end-result is going to be.
The low cost of Supreme Verdict alone easily makes budget U/W superior to anything you can come up with in U/B right now. And for the record, I have been keeping some form of semi-budget U/B control since SoM so it's not like I haven't tried to do it myself.
Yeah lets start with an aetherling over master of waves. What devotion does this have to help master out? None really....I am curious to see the matchups.
Anger of the Gods $1ish
Rakdos Return (Going up get them NOW) $4-5
Blood Crypt $7ish
Gray Merchant its a common
Underworld Connections $3
Thoughtseize $14 (Not really a budget option)
Dreadbore $3
Whip of Erebos $1
Rakdos Keyrune basically free
That deck runs Jace, Ashiok, Domestication, and Sphinx for devotion. Just having a Jace out and slamming a master gives you 3 tokens. Thats nothing to sneeze at.
Considering the fact that it'll take a little time to gather or order and that BNG will likely be out by the time the OP has all the stuff ready, I disagree.
Azorius expensive tools
Elspeth
Jace AOT
Sphinx's revelation
Mutavault
Azorius cheap tools
Detention sphere
Supreme verdict (a semi-expensive cheap tool but still more cheap)
Azxorius charm
Aetherling
Dimir expensive tools
Jace AOT
Ashiok (Actually not so bad anymore)
Thoughtseize
Hero's downfall
Mutavault
Dimir cheap tools
Far // away
Opportunity
Spot removal of various types
Aetherling
There's an important difference here. Azorius' best replacement for sphinx's revelation is opportunity. It has no replacement for Elspeth, Jace, or mutavault. Dimir more easily replaces Jace AOT with the cheaper but more win condition heavy style of using Jace MA. Azorius can do this too but has less tools to tick with it. Ashiok you may just shell out for but assuming you don't (shelling out for one might not be a bad idea), you'll still have the general idea with Jace MA. Thoughtseize has no replacement unless your meta has a ton of control and not much aggro (in which case you'd use duress) but this can be sort of substituted with counters/removal. It isn't as good but it is different than lacking one of your win conditions. Hero's downfall would be replaced by spot removal, noticeably losing the ability to shoot down planeswalkers. This is hardly irrelevant but budget control will simply have this problem usually and for that, pithing needles will make their way into the sideboard.
The difference between the two is that Azorius loses most of its stabilizing agents (almost to the point where you draw supreme verdict or you don't stabilize) whereas Dimir is just a little weaker around the board, focusing on the aggro and control matchups while losing out on some flexibility. Dimir is definitely better in a budgety control sense, especially after AOG. Just because UW is a higher tier deck in its full cost glory and that UB is less so in its full cost glory doesn't mean that UW is going to be stronger than UB in budget. The fact that dimir has better cheapo replacements while UW really has nothing that can replace those expensive components is a lot more important.
Maybe Will go after U/B, since I cant afford the shocklands right now. I'm not a fan of listings, not extremely competitive either, so I dont care about the result now, just about the fun, and as things goes I'll start to add the expensive cards later one by one
For that reason, I agree with B/R for control.
Let's remove bias and disregard cards that appear and would appear in both decks. There is nothing in U/B that would push JMA above (or even on the same level as) JAoT. Both lose JAoT, both cannot replace him with JMA because he serves a different purpose. Both can run JMA if they choose to do so. Losing Sphinx Rev is hardly relevant to this discussion as U/B doesn't have anything better than Opportunity anyway. Same with Mutavault. So really, based on your list it's U/W losing Elspeth vs U/B losing Hero's Downfall & Thoughtseize.
U/W still has Detention Sphere.
And what does U/B have to stabilize that U/W doesn't? Spot removal is it's only edge and White can easily compensate. On the other hand there is nothing in Black right now that comes remotely close to Verdict. Hell, even Yoked Ox is better than any low cost defensive creature U/B can come up with.
Automatically yes, it doesn't. But it also doesn't mean that whatever advantage U/W had before budgetizing is suddenly gone. I can go on and on about this but really, I agree that what you end up with in the end is what matters. So are you really saying that access to Ashiok and a bunch of spells with bonus mill is better for control than access to Verdict and D. Sphere? Come on now.
No one was sneezing, was answering the question of how to budgetize.
All of those cards are being mentioned in a budget forum. Budget.
No, nothing in UB would push Jace MA over Jace AOT. However, UB can push a mill type theme without severely harming itself in a budgeteer version as it can play a number of cards that mill but are not dedicated strictly to it. UW has zero support for that, leaving Jace MA working alone. Jace AOT is also more valuable to a deck with a strict sweeper like supreme verdict. That's UW's camp where UB is more 1 for 1 ish in general.
If you think losing sphinx's revelation is nothing, take a reality check because by that reasoning, losing Elspeth is nothing. This must be so because UB has nothing like Elspeth. Obviously, this is completely untrue and a fallacy but your logic that losing sphinx's revelation is nothing falls through the floor that badly. UB may not have the amazing draw spell that UW has but it has much more stable spot removal, sideboardable cheap hand hate, and another direction to go that can be done with less pricy resources. We're not talking about "Just sub thoughtseizes for duresses and call it a day". I'm saying that you can do a lot more with UB on a budget.
Yeah, UW has detention sphere. Its great. But let's look at your control package. Detention sphere, supreme verdict, azorius charm... and you're down to counters plus maybe celestial flare. That means that your answers to things on the board severely shrank. UB, on the other hand, has plenty of spot removal to go around. Doom blade, ultimate price, far // away, devour flesh, dimir charm, warped physique... And when BNG comes out, they'll have drown in sorrow and bile blight. So UW has better answers to planeswalkers... but to do it, it requires using one of only a few cards that it has to answer threats on the board. UB handles the absence of Jace AOT much better than UW does. UW takes some hits, stabilizes, and gains it back in sphinx's revs. UB tends to just try to not lose that life in the first place.
Yoked Ox. Dimir has nothing at cmc 1 that matches Yoked Ox. However, it does have a whole lot more answers on turn 2 than Azorius does and it has a fairly reasonable blocker in returned phalanx which actually kills things and lives where Yoked Ox only blocks. It is also a road block that the opponent has to actually deal with. Azorius will eventually kill their ox (though sometimes it is worth the aggro player's time to kill beforehand) with supreme verdict as the situation will only worsen given time. Dimir will never have to kill returned phalanx. Rather, they will make the opponent kill it. The point is that Azorius will need to. Dimir has a commodity that can actually slowly solve the problems on the board (as opposed to placating them) and it is a commodity that the opponent has much more interest in shooting down. And no, don't give me that "Lightning strike exists" BS. That's like saying that creatures are bad because kill spells exist. They only have 4 lightning strikes. Make them draw it and make them prove they have it.
So to summarize, UW sphinx's revelation, Elspeth, and Jace AOT, 3 cards that carry it in any matchup whether it is aggro, midrange, or control. Functionally, these three cards are irreplaceable. UB lost thoughtseize (mainly for midrange and control matchups but against the latter, it gets back something almost as good from the sideboard in Duress). It also lost Jace AOT which is very strong in prettymuch any matchup. And it lost hero's downfall which is irreplaceable but not important against aggro (In fact, replacing it with another spot removal would result in a better exchange on the aggro end). The things that UW lost were all vital to its gameplan in all matchups and none were replaceable (unless you call opportunity a replacement for Sphinx's revelation but the typical UW control player will just laugh and tell you that while its the next best thing, you must be joking). UB mostly lost cards that it can compensate for and the replacements for said cards were weaker in two matchups but stronger in another (specifically aggro being the matchups that wins out in the case of thoughtseize and hero's downfall's replacements). This is a big difference in comparison to just being weaker all around the board.
Also, of course Revelation is infinitely better than Opportunity. No one is disputing that. But it's a moot point because UB doesn't even get the OPTION. It's stuck with the third rate version as it's best-in-slot. So comparing UW losing Rev for Opportunity to UB keeping Opportunity is still in UW's favor. Not to mention, if the player builds budget UW and manages to obtain a Rev later down the road, it's infinitely better to just slot it in over an Opportunity than it would be to build budget UB and have nowhere to go from there except sidegrade some utility cards.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
JMA has no problems working alone. Even Esper, despite having access to 'support', does not use any of them.
Like I said, irrelevant to the discussion - it's about which deck is better on a budget, not which deck loses more power.
We both know that white has more than just celestial flare.
As happy as I am about those cards being spoiled, they are right now, irrelevant. We're not talking about what U/B could be when BNG comes to Standard.
And U/W on a budget cannot do this?
Frostburn Weird
I've already said it, but the discussion is not about which deck loses more power. You saying that U/B is better because it only loses a little isn't any more valid than me saying that U/W is because it starts with a lot. And this whole "what UW lost were all vital" is just confirmation bias. I can argue all day that what UB loses are just as vital, but there's the Dimir Control thread in Established for that. White can compensate for spot removal if needed. Opportunity isn't any better in U/B than it is in U/W no matter how you twist things around. I'll give you JMA being mildly better in U/B, but really, I know you know the reason he is seeing play is because he does work alone.
I get the feeling you're just being argumentative now, what with mentioning cards that aren't in Standard yet and being selective about White's other control options and that's fine, I'm also argumentative sometimes. But I no longer have the desire to continue after this so I'll just agree that you disagree.
What the deck loses is very relevant to the discussion. It is not the entire argument but the point is that tiers in non budget are completely irrelevant. (which you mentioned in post 10). UW may not lose supreme verdict to budget but it loses the support shell that makes it tick. Jace helps force the opponent to overextend and can dig for your supreme verdict. Sphinx's revelation allows UW to wait longer on that supreme verdict and dig out new ones. Elspeth allows UW to sit back and relax as the tokens help stabilize post verdict, a fact that's relevant in the event that you only get one. One verdict often isn't enough to shut aggro out. Meaning that what you have left is a great card but face the absence of its support crew.
So let's see... What does white have beyond celestial flare? Pacifism, arrest, blind obedience... Last breath? Yes, it does have some. Let's not pretend that this works well. UW will have to but it will not work that well.
Fair enough that bile blight and drown in sorrow haven't come out yet... aside the fact that by the time the OP could put something together, they will be out. So in a technical sense, no they don't matter but in terms of actual application, they do.
UW on a budget can try not to lose life in the first place but is ill-equipped in comparison. It can try. It will be far less successful at it. You place high value on supreme verdict. Supreme verdict is a card where you want to force as much over-extension as possible and then gain big card advantage with its use. If you're sticking your deck chalk full of pacifisms, celestial flares, and whatnot, how much value will that supreme verdict even have? The answer is that it'll rarely garner the kinds of card advantage blowouts that make it good. So UW can try to do it and it may even be somewhat successful but it'll come at the cost of the big advantage that's normally gained by its sweeper.
If you want frostburn weird instead of phalanx, be my guest. However, I imagine you'll have a small bit of trouble hitting all those blues in a deck that requires so many double whites and returned phalanx does its job without extra expenditures.
What the decks lose is again very important but if you'd like me to put it another way, Dimir's main gameplay style is left close to untouched while UW is bent out of shape by trying to conform to a style of play that dimir does better. Opportunity is not better in UB than UW but UW relies on Sphinx's revelation whereas Dimir's game plan functions without the life stabilization. You can call it twisting as much as you want but Opportunity does what UB needs it to do. It doesn't do what UW needs it to do.
I'm being slightly argumentative but I have no bias on the matter. Being selective on white's control options has purpose. It is because trying to lose less life in the first place with spot removal steps on the toes of the usual UW gameplan, sending it into a game of spot removal that UB just does better. Supreme verdict is a great card but it is amazing when you 3 for 1 or 4 for 1 with it. It is not so amazing when you 2 for 1 or 3 for 2. But if you try to compensate for the budget with more spot removal, that's exactly what you'll end up with.
This is non-standard, but I once played a Slaughter Games against a Relentless Rats deck. :D:D
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!