It's part of the rules, sadly. I've seen players purposely run spells into Chalice set at their cmc just to see if the player remembers the trigger. If they don't? Too bad so sad. I don't blame the players though, I blame whatever rules committee changed the rules to this.
It's better this way, people should remember their own triggers, it's part of the skilltesting part of magic. You shouldn't have to remind your opponent on his game winning triggers..
The problem in this instance is more that he didn't forget about the Ruric Thar trigger but was denied it on a technicality. It's hard to say for sure what transpired without having audio, but it's not like he forgot to put a 3/3 into play for Thragtusk and drew for his turn before realizing his mistake.
The problem in this instance is more that he didn't forget about the Ruric Thar trigger but was denied it on a technicality. It's hard to say for sure what transpired without having audio, but it's not like he forgot to put a 3/3 into play for Thragtusk and drew for his turn before realizing his mistake.
Doesn't really matter IMO.
Remember how the game works and triggers work and you will be rewarded for it. If not, you will be punished. This is not FNM, this is a big tournament, and people are expected to play well and not forget things.
He forgot his trigger, or didn't announce it at the right time, so he got punished for it. Next time he'll do it properly.
It's better this way, people should remember their own triggers, it's part of the skilltesting part of magic. You shouldn't have to remind your opponent on his game winning triggers..
Sure (though there are judges for that) but at the same time, purposefully gaming the rules shouldn't be encouraged, be it by "fast playing" to try and force things past triggers or by skipping madatory triggers and hoping your opponent doesn't call you on it. It's also not a universally even rule. You can't say "Well both players can do it so it's fair." The Chalice player can't run his own spells into his own chalice and let them through because he is required to remember his own triggers. His opponent can do it as much as he likes.
Nice and disverse as much as we complain about mono black apperently its popularity is not translating into domination of the format.
Mono blue.
Mono black.
GR devotion
GR monsters.
Esper control
UW control.
RW devotion.
and I missed the last one.. its listed as "Thomas Schlegel" in the profiles.
Nice and disverse as much as we complain about mono black apperently its popularity is not translating into domination of the format.
Mono blue.
Mono black.
GR devotion
GR monsters.
Esper control
UW control.
RW devotion.
and I missed the last one.. its listed as "Thomas Schlegel" in the profiles.
My guess is GR Monsters, like what Thomas Schlegel listed that he played.
I'm surprised that no GW decks made it, although I don't like its matchup vs. Control.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Sure (though there are judges for that) but at the same time, purposefully gaming the rules shouldn't be encouraged, be it by "fast playing" to try and force things past triggers or by skipping madatory triggers and hoping your opponent doesn't call you on it. It's also not a universally even rule. You can't say "Well both players can do it so it's fair." The Chalice player can't run his own spells into his own chalice and let them through because he is required to remember his own triggers. His opponent can do it as much as he likes.
You can't fast play like that. If you try to do so it's Cheating and will get you DQ'd. Most likely what happened with the Ruric Thar is he asked the opponent if it resolves and he said yes. Once it resolves the opponent missed the trigger. He wasn't gaming the system he was fully prepared to accept the damage, but the opponent forgot.
It's not perfect, but the other way meant you had to inform your opponent of the triggers that were winning them the game. You shouldn't have to play your opponents cards for them.
You can't fast play like that. If you try to do so it's Cheating and will get you DQ'd. Most likely what happened with the Ruric Thar is he asked the opponent if it resolves and he said yes. Once it resolves the opponent missed the trigger. He wasn't gaming the system he was fully prepared to accept the damage, but the opponent forgot.
It's not perfect, but the other way meant you had to inform your opponent of the triggers that were winning them the game. You shouldn't have to play your opponents cards for them.
That was my question, I thought mandatory triggers were mandatory, so much so that if it was missed within a reasonable amount of time the games state had to back up to take the trigger into account.
"May" abilities could always be missed, but I was under the impression non optional/modal triggers HAD to happen. Just curious when/if that changed.
Yes this changed (though I'm not sure when exactly the rule change took effect). Chalice is not a "may" it's maditory but under the new rules if the chalices owner doesn't announce the trigger it doesn't happen and no you can't go back regardless of it's mandatory or not.
You can't fast play like that. If you try to do so it's Cheating and will get you DQ'd. Most likely what happened with the Ruric Thar is he asked the opponent if it resolves and he said yes. Once it resolves the opponent missed the trigger. He wasn't gaming the system he was fully prepared to accept the damage, but the opponent forgot.
It's not perfect, but the other way meant you had to inform your opponent of the triggers that were winning them the game. You shouldn't have to play your opponents cards for them.
Wait, so you're telling me if he asks "does this resolve?" the opponent immediately has to say, "take 6," not "yes it resolves, take 6."
It was quick, the commentators mentioned how quick it was.
Nelson's opponent played Ruic Thar, passed turn, then Nelson played his Elspeth. It was all pretty quick.
The rule changed a couple months before Gatecrash released last year. The basic gist of the new rule is you are never allowed to forget your own trigger and your opponent never has to remind you of yours. This allows for a player to forget mandatory triggers they may obviously want. It's been pretty well received by the community too.
Edit @Noon3r If the opponent had said yes it resolves and you take 6 in the same sentence then it would be out of order sequencing and he'd be allowed to do it. If he said yes it resolves and let Nelson put counters on it before mentioning the damage it is too late. Yes this seems like a very small thing, but this is a game with thousands of dollars on the line.
You can forget a mandatory trigger you control such as in the chalice example, but if your opponent reminds you it still occurs. If neither player speaks out, it doesn't happen and your opponent can't notice you didn't, wait until after it's too late, then call a judge on you.
I'm pretty sure you get a rules violation penalty if you "forget" your own triggers regardless of if your opponent calls you on it, the judge will enforce it (at least that's what I think I remember seeing happen, I could be wrong).
I'm pretty sure you get a rules violation penalty if you "forget" your own triggers regardless of if your opponent calls you on it, the judge will enforce it (at least that's what I think I remember seeing happen, I could be wrong).
It depends. If you forget a beneficial trigger (Staff of Nin) then you won't get a penalty since it's obvious you just forgot. If you forget a non-beneficial trigger (Vexing Devil) then you'll get a warning for missing a mandatory trigger.
It depends. If you forget a beneficial trigger (Staff of Nin) then you won't get a penalty since it's obvious you just forgot. If you forget a non-beneficial trigger (Vexing Devil) then you'll get a warning for missing a mandatory trigger.
I've gotten a warning for forgetting the Lifelink trigger on my Whip of Erebos, so it doesnt seem like its actually a consistent rule.
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As far as I'm concerned, playing like Brad Nelson did today is immoral. The cards on the table say you lose; just because you can spin it another way doesn't mean you should. It comes off as some dickish move that a made-for-TV Disney movie villain would pull to get the protagonist disqualified from the competition because he's afraid of losing.
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#define ALWAYS SOMETIMES
#define NEVER RARELY
#define ALL MANY
-=GIVE US SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN=-
I'm nerd enough to link my WoW Armory Though I'll put it in a small font.
I kind of want to see the clip where this happened. What round was this (so I can look on twitch)
It was the featured match somewhere between rounds 4 and 6. Unfortunately I'm drunk right now and don't quite remember.
Sorry for beating the dead horse. Glad to know that rule has changed, I haven't played competitive magic for almost 3 years now, so that seems like something important to keep in mind.
I have no idea why people are disgusted with what Brad Nelson did. Forcing your opponent to remember their triggers is not a "cheat." Please lay off from making such big accusations when what you should be doing is reading through the tournament rules instead.
I have no idea why people are disgusted with what Brad Nelson did. Forcing your opponent to remember their triggers is not a "cheat." Please lay off from making such big accusations when what you should be doing is reading through the tournament rules instead.
Brad plays Elspeth and then puts a die on her at 1 within the span of five seconds. Regardless of what the rules say, it was a sleazy move from a sleazy player.
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#define ALWAYS SOMETIMES
#define NEVER RARELY
#define ALL MANY
-=GIVE US SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN=-
I'm nerd enough to link my WoW Armory Though I'll put it in a small font.
Brad plays Elspeth and then puts a die on her at 1 within the span of five seconds. Regardless of what the rules say, it was a sleazy move from a sleazy player.
It doesn't matter how fast the die was put on. If Brad fumbled for dice for 30 seconds, it wouldn't make a difference. His opponent still let the spell resolve. The ability goes on the stack as soon as the spell is cast, and will resolve before Elsepth resolves. If he allows Elsepth to resolve, then he has missed the trigger. That's just how Competitive REL is.
As far as I'm concerned, playing like Brad Nelson did today is immoral. The cards on the table say you lose; just because you can spin it another way doesn't mean you should. It comes off as some dickish move that a made-for-TV Disney movie villain would pull to get the protagonist disqualified from the competition because he's afraid of losing.
You are strictly wrong. There is no grey area. If Brad asks, does Elspeth resolve, his opponent says only "yes", his opponent failed to announce his trigger. There was no foul play on Brad's part. He simply cast a spell, and his opponent allowed it to resolve without remembering his trigger.
I must reiterate, there is no matter of opinions or perspectives here. It is a very black and white situation. Brad did nothing that is in any way construable as against the rules. Short of personal verbal/physical attacks, there is nothing immoral one can do in a game of magic other than break a rule. Brad did none of those things. Please retract your statement.
EDIT: You mention Brad "spinning it" a certain way. Clearly, playing by the rules of the game is not spinning anything.
EDIT 2: Furthermore, there is no amount of "fast play" that could have happened here. If Brad slams the Elspeth and ticks it down without giving his opponent a chance to declare his trigger, the opponent needs simply to stop Brad, and declare his trigger, nothing Brad can do can stop this. As a result, not only did Brad not act immorally, it would not have been possible in anyway to commit the action you accuse him of.
It doesn't matter how fast the die was put on. If Brad fumbled for dice for 30 seconds, it wouldn't make a difference. His opponent still let the spell resolve. The ability goes on the stack as soon as the spell is cast, and will resolve before Elsepth resolves. If he allows Elsepth to resolve, then he has missed the trigger. That's just how Competitive REL is.
There's no "allowing the Elspeth to resolve" if your opponent just slams it on the table and then proclaims that you're too late for the Ruric Thar trigger. The timing definitely does matter.
You are strictly wrong. There is no grey area. If Brad asks, does Elspeth resolve, his opponent says only "yes", his opponent failed to announce his trigger. There was no foul play on Brad's part. He simply cast a spell, and his opponent allowed it to resolve without remembering his trigger.
I must reiterate, there is no matter of opinions or perspectives here. It is a very black and white situation. Brad did nothing that is in any way construable as against the rules. Short of personal verbal/physical attacks, there is nothing immoral one can do in a game of magic other than break a rule. Brad did none of those things. Please retract your statement.
You are strictly wrong. I never said what Brad did was against the rules. Please retract your statement.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
#define ALWAYS SOMETIMES
#define NEVER RARELY
#define ALL MANY
-=GIVE US SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN=-
I'm nerd enough to link my WoW Armory Though I'll put it in a small font.
There's no "allowing the Elspeth to resolve" if your opponent just slams it on the table and then proclaims that you're too late for the Ruric Thar trigger. The timing definitely does matter.
You are strictly wrong. I never said what Brad did was against the rules. Please retract your statement.
Refer to my edit. I beleive it clears up both of your misconceptions in this post.
I never said you claimed he cheated. You claimed he acted immorally, as I have explained, the immoral actions you are accusing him of would not have been possible in a game of Magic played at any REL.
It's better this way, people should remember their own triggers, it's part of the skilltesting part of magic. You shouldn't have to remind your opponent on his game winning triggers..
Doesn't really matter IMO.
Remember how the game works and triggers work and you will be rewarded for it. If not, you will be punished. This is not FNM, this is a big tournament, and people are expected to play well and not forget things.
He forgot his trigger, or didn't announce it at the right time, so he got punished for it. Next time he'll do it properly.
Sure (though there are judges for that) but at the same time, purposefully gaming the rules shouldn't be encouraged, be it by "fast playing" to try and force things past triggers or by skipping madatory triggers and hoping your opponent doesn't call you on it. It's also not a universally even rule. You can't say "Well both players can do it so it's fair." The Chalice player can't run his own spells into his own chalice and let them through because he is required to remember his own triggers. His opponent can do it as much as he likes.
Nice and disverse as much as we complain about mono black apperently its popularity is not translating into domination of the format.
Mono blue.
Mono black.
GR devotion
GR monsters.
Esper control
UW control.
RW devotion.
and I missed the last one.. its listed as "Thomas Schlegel" in the profiles.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
My guess is GR Monsters, like what Thomas Schlegel listed that he played.
I'm surprised that no GW decks made it, although I don't like its matchup vs. Control.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)You can't fast play like that. If you try to do so it's Cheating and will get you DQ'd. Most likely what happened with the Ruric Thar is he asked the opponent if it resolves and he said yes. Once it resolves the opponent missed the trigger. He wasn't gaming the system he was fully prepared to accept the damage, but the opponent forgot.
It's not perfect, but the other way meant you had to inform your opponent of the triggers that were winning them the game. You shouldn't have to play your opponents cards for them.
That was my question, I thought mandatory triggers were mandatory, so much so that if it was missed within a reasonable amount of time the games state had to back up to take the trigger into account.
"May" abilities could always be missed, but I was under the impression non optional/modal triggers HAD to happen. Just curious when/if that changed.
Wait, so you're telling me if he asks "does this resolve?" the opponent immediately has to say, "take 6," not "yes it resolves, take 6."
It was quick, the commentators mentioned how quick it was.
Nelson's opponent played Ruic Thar, passed turn, then Nelson played his Elspeth. It was all pretty quick.
Edit @Noon3r If the opponent had said yes it resolves and you take 6 in the same sentence then it would be out of order sequencing and he'd be allowed to do it. If he said yes it resolves and let Nelson put counters on it before mentioning the damage it is too late. Yes this seems like a very small thing, but this is a game with thousands of dollars on the line.
It depends. If you forget a beneficial trigger (Staff of Nin) then you won't get a penalty since it's obvious you just forgot. If you forget a non-beneficial trigger (Vexing Devil) then you'll get a warning for missing a mandatory trigger.
I've gotten a warning for forgetting the Lifelink trigger on my Whip of Erebos, so it doesnt seem like its actually a consistent rule.
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
It was the featured match somewhere between rounds 4 and 6. Unfortunately I'm drunk right now and don't quite remember.
Sorry for beating the dead horse. Glad to know that rule has changed, I haven't played competitive magic for almost 3 years now, so that seems like something important to keep in mind.
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
It doesn't matter how fast the die was put on. If Brad fumbled for dice for 30 seconds, it wouldn't make a difference. His opponent still let the spell resolve. The ability goes on the stack as soon as the spell is cast, and will resolve before Elsepth resolves. If he allows Elsepth to resolve, then he has missed the trigger. That's just how Competitive REL is.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
You are strictly wrong. There is no grey area. If Brad asks, does Elspeth resolve, his opponent says only "yes", his opponent failed to announce his trigger. There was no foul play on Brad's part. He simply cast a spell, and his opponent allowed it to resolve without remembering his trigger.
I must reiterate, there is no matter of opinions or perspectives here. It is a very black and white situation. Brad did nothing that is in any way construable as against the rules. Short of personal verbal/physical attacks, there is nothing immoral one can do in a game of magic other than break a rule. Brad did none of those things. Please retract your statement.
EDIT: You mention Brad "spinning it" a certain way. Clearly, playing by the rules of the game is not spinning anything.
EDIT 2: Furthermore, there is no amount of "fast play" that could have happened here. If Brad slams the Elspeth and ticks it down without giving his opponent a chance to declare his trigger, the opponent needs simply to stop Brad, and declare his trigger, nothing Brad can do can stop this. As a result, not only did Brad not act immorally, it would not have been possible in anyway to commit the action you accuse him of.
You are strictly wrong. I never said what Brad did was against the rules. Please retract your statement.
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
Refer to my edit. I beleive it clears up both of your misconceptions in this post.
I never said you claimed he cheated. You claimed he acted immorally, as I have explained, the immoral actions you are accusing him of would not have been possible in a game of Magic played at any REL.