I personally prefer Gnarled Scardhide in SftF version rather than Bloodsoaked Champion. It also allows early push, can pump your guys with bestow (so let's say he has double life ;)), triggers SftF/Doom Giant and disables one blocker if needed which we can call pseudo-evasion in this case. My current version below:
I'm still working on BUG version, but I think that it should be based on value from Sidisi and Delve instead of multiple SftF triggers.
@Meecht: please let us know how Rakshasa Deathdealer works for you. I'm really curious about this one.
- This version of the deck is an aggro deck, I don't see the reason to MB Doomwake or Soul, a card like Nemesis of Mortals or Boon Satyr just seems better.
- Running 4 fetches, even to just fuel delve isn't worth the life loss
- Pharika is terrible in my testing, it just seems very slow
- Again where aggro and Whip is just not good, we don't have a card like Shadowborn to make it amazing. Still testing Bow of Nylea but it seems a lot better.
I personally prefer Gnarled Scardhide in SftF version rather than Bloodsoaked Champion. It also allows early push, can pump your guys with bestow (so let's say he has double life ;)), triggers SftF/Doom Giant and disables one blocker if needed which we can call pseudo-evasion in this case.
They both have pros and cons to the point of being equal, IMO. I plan to test both.
- This version of the deck is an aggro deck, I don't see the reason to MB Doomwake or Soul, a card like Nemesis of Mortals or Boon Satyr just seems better.
- Running 4 fetches, even to just fuel delve isn't worth the life loss
- Pharika is terrible in my testing, it just seems very slow
- Again where aggro and Whip is just not good, we don't have a card like Shadowborn to make it amazing. Still testing Bow of Nylea but it seems a lot better.
I've been debating Doomwake in the MB of mine recently. There are times it does nothing after the turn it's played because I don't draw any enchantments. Also, we lose our best Whip target (Shadowborn Demon), but I think Whip can still be useful to bring back a huge Nighthowler to help recover or Nylea to let our big dude punch through chump blockers. Necropolis Fiend could be useful with Whip, too, since it'll gain haste.
Just to throw this out there: Any thoughts on Graverobber Spider? It has a built-in SftF for itself and the reach can be relevant against flying-heavy decks. I'm not too keen on the cost of the activated ability and that it's a 2/4, though.
- This version of the deck is an aggro deck, I don't see the reason to MB Doomwake or Soul, a card like Nemesis of Mortals or Boon Satyr just seems better.
- Running 4 fetches, even to just fuel delve isn't worth the life loss
- Pharika is terrible in my testing, it just seems very slow
- Again where aggro and Whip is just not good, we don't have a card like Shadowborn to make it amazing. Still testing Bow of Nylea but it seems a lot better.
I agree with you, but:
- We can fully admit that we have lost our MB board control (Shadowborn) and even if Doomwake cannot be compared with it, it wipes the board quite succesfull. I've put him into MB for testing, because of his sinergy with SftF and Pharika. But I have to admit that you are right, that it rather slows the deck.
- Fetches are only for fueling delve, but with Urborg in play they can be used as swamps. I was also afraid that life loss might be not worth it, but I've just started testing so I have to wait before deciding.
- Pharika is terribly slow, but allows to multiple trigger Doomwake, that's the only reason I've put her MB at this moment,
- I will give a shot for Bow, Whip is only in MB because it allows you to recover from low life situations and since I expect at least my local meta to be full of aggro at the begining I have to find a basic solution for such situation also.
I don't think we need board control. With SotF are board control is attacking. Are creatures are going to be so big they'll have to chump block, which is in essence are removal.
The sideboard is still a work in progress but the main deck feel about right. This is kind of a dredge/reanimator/value deck. It doesn't rely in the graveyard to win, but it definitely uses it as a resource. The purpose of the deck is just to out value your opponent. Bloodsoaked champ/thoughtseize in the board is for control if that wasn't obvious, blight for empty the pits or aggro decks, Anafenza for other dredge/reanimator decks, and the singleton downfall is to bring in against ashiok decks to go up to 3 downfall. Let me know what you guys think!
Im also going for a reanimator build. My thoughts; increase mb whips to 2 and 1 in sb for aggro, swap blights for drown in sorrows for aggro. Otherwise looks fun, any other ideas etc you have ill try and talk through with you
that is a totally different deck, Dredge isn't a reanimator deck. It uses the graveyard to pump out Nighthowler, Nemesis, Strength, etc and using Murderous Cut. I believe Reanimator would deserve its own thread.
Haven't really browsed over the entire thread, but have you guys considered Sidisi, Brood Tyrant? She could really breathe new life into this kind of deck. While we are about it, incorporating more blue cards could be the key to bring the power back up to the pre-rotation levels.
I do have a question about the Pharika+SotF engine: I get that you can play a single Pharika to tutor for, but how many SotF's do you need to run before they start cloging your hand and opening plays?
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Haven't really browsed over the entire thread, but have you guys considered Sidisi, Brood Tyrant? She could really breathe new life into this kind of deck. While we are about it, incorporating more blue cards could be the key to bring the power back up to the pre-rotation levels.
I do have a question about the Pharika+SotF engine: I get that you can play a single Pharika to tutor for, but how many SotF's do you need to run before they start cloging your hand and opening plays?
Sidisi depends, I prefer an aggro deck that curves out at a bestowed Herald of Torment, playing B/G makes the deck more streamlined so it's faster. Sidisi being a four drop is a little slow plus just isn't that big a body.
SoTF never clogs your hand as they proc, if you have one and play another you get two triggers. With Nylea out getting as many triggers is key to winning through trample or just flying over with Herald.
that is a totally different deck, Dredge isn't a reanimator deck. It uses the graveyard to pump out Nighthowler, Nemesis, Strength, etc and using Murderous Cut. I believe Reanimator would deserve its own thread.
Agreed, im still waiting for someone to make a thread for it though.
It's a little bit reanimator with whip and rescue and a little bit dredge with cut and empty but mostly just value. Maybe it should be in a different thread, not sure, it's abzan colors and deals with the GY that's why I posted it here.
@nerv - Drown in some number is mostly likely correct in the board, I still want some number of blights though. I don't like more than 1 whip main because of how much of your deck you sift through it's easy to find whip, there isn't much room for more and I think more is just a waste of spots anyway (same with empty). The nyx weavers can grab whip if it's been destroyed or milled if you really need (which most of the time you don't).
Went 2-1 at my local FNM last night, placed third by points. Beat Abzan midrange round 1, lost a tough back and forth game 3 to RUG midrange, and then beat a weird UB Inspired homebrew 2-0 in round 3. I know my list is a bit slower and more control oriented compared to most, but I still have to give a thumbs up for the single Liliana Vess in the deck. Being able to tutor up a Herald of Torment or Nylea, god of the hunt at the right time was priceless, and stole a couple games for me. That being said, here's my current list:
While I like your deck, I completely disagree about Whip. Whip is far better than Bow. You have two trample options which doesn't make Bow that much better. I would far rather gain a ton of life from the SotF trigger than just get DT on a creature that will crush their blocker anyways. Bow just does so little from my testing of the new environment.
What I like about Sidisi in this archetype is that it's a must answer threat that takes over the game on its own and synergizes with almost every other single card in the deck. It seems to me like people are running 4-6 pieces of removal and little sweeping, so if we can keep the deck dense with threats that work on their own and only get better as others are played or killed, eventually the opponent will run out of answers and our creatures can hold the fort all day. Bestow helps immensely in that sense.
I think slowing down the deck is a mistake. It seems foolish to me to run something like Courser when you can land a Nemesis or unmorph Rattleclaw into Sagu Mauler on T3 (speaking of which, Jeskai Tempo has nothing on Sagu unless they Disdainful Stroke it). Courser is an excellent card, but unless you go constellation heavy with Strength it does nothing for our main strategy (and even if you do go constellation heavy I wouldn't be so sure), and I'd rather have a fatty in play than draw a couple of cards while I'm doing graveyard shenanigans. Maybe a Doomwake Giant / Pharika package could fit in the side against weenie. I'm not saying either is better, but it's what makes sense to me.
I quite like Brian Demars's take from his SCG article. I agree that we don't necessarily need to slow down but fact of the matter is that this simply is not a very fast deck to begin with when compared with conventional Aggro strategies. Instead it is good at compounding a board very quickly and matches up very well against decks that try to one for one you or the slower Midrange decks that try to clog the ground when you can simply go wider than they can at a much faster pace.
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Since my last post, I decided to jump on the Sidisi, Brood Tyrant train for a little while after reading Jim Davis's article on SCG (here). One HUGE issue I ran into at FNM was the lack of evasion. Seriously, the only way his list has to punch damage through is Sagu Mauler, and while it's a good card it just wasn't enough.
Typically, we've used Nylea, God of the Hunt or Herald of Torment to help get damage through, but a problem has popped up. Arbor Colossus is starting to see play again. It's a pretty big sponge to trample through and the monstrous ability kills whatever Herald was bestowed on. There's also Siege Rhino, Polukranos, and Courser that have really big butts which pose a serious problem for trample.
Then it hit me. Being in blue opens up Thassa, God of the Sea, and I think the ability to make a creature unblockable is really relevant right now. It allows Sidisi to survive combat, turns a monstrous Nemesis of Mortals into a 2-turn clock, and makes hard casting Nighthowler a viable option besides just needing a creature on the board. Also, Thassa and Nighthowler get around Disdainful Stroke which will probably see more play due to the rise of midrange.
I quite like Brian Demars's take from his SCG article. I agree that we don't necessarily need to slow down but fact of the matter is that this simply is not a very fast deck to begin with when compared with conventional Aggro strategies.
What makes this deck extra interesting to me is that we have a whole spectrum of cards that allows us to play control against faster aggro but overwhelm a slower midrangey-control build. We can cover a lot of ground with a solid sideboard plan.
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"Dying with good cards in your hand is the surest sign that you did something wrong, somewhere." -Caleb Durward
Personally I think Thassa's is hot garbage. If you want evasion why not just use Herald of Torment?
Herald of Torment only affects a single creature, and bestowing it takes up an entire turn which can leave you open to a blow out. When cast as an aura it can be countered by Disdainful Stroke and Negate, both of which saw a fair amount of play over the weekend. Even though it didn't see a lot of play, Herald-ing up a single big creature opens you up to Deflecting Palm, too.
Thassa can come down T2 (before risk of most counter magic) and start fixing draws. She can set up Nyx Weaver mills to make sure they trigger Sidisi, and lets Sidisi swing into anything without fear of dying. Instead of going a voltron-ish route by Nighthowler-ing or Herald-ing up a single creature, you could actually hard cast a Nighthowler to make unblockable. We've all seen how easy it is to make that guy huge. There's also Sagu Mauler, and an unblockable 6/6 with hexproof (the trample is irrelevant when unblockable) sounds pretty darn scary.
I guess my argument mainly comes down to this: Why give your opponent a chance to block, when you can take that away from them without severely hindering your game plan?
Because I simply don't value a Think Tank with upside enough to consider it in Type 2. If you could reliably turn on Thassa, then I'd have a second look.
Mono Blue Devotion was the most powerful Thassa deck bar none, but I can assure you that if she was simply a Think Tank that Scry'd and could make things unblockable, she would be borderline unplayable.
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Personally I think Thassa's is hot garbage. If you want evasion why not just use Herald of Torment?
Herald of Torment only affects a single creature, and bestowing it takes up an entire turn which can leave you open to a blow out. When cast as an aura it can be countered by Disdainful Stroke and Negate, both of which saw a fair amount of play over the weekend. Even though it didn't see a lot of play, Herald-ing up a single big creature opens you up to Deflecting Palm, too.
Thassa can come down T2 (before risk of most counter magic) and start fixing draws. She can set up Nyx Weaver mills to make sure they trigger Sidisi, and lets Sidisi swing into anything without fear of dying. Instead of going a voltron-ish route by Nighthowler-ing or Herald-ing up a single creature, you could actually hard cast a Nighthowler to make unblockable. We've all seen how easy it is to make that guy huge. There's also Sagu Mauler, and an unblockable 6/6 with hexproof (the trample is irrelevant when unblockable) sounds pretty darn scary.
I guess my argument mainly comes down to this: Why give your opponent a chance to block, when you can take that away from them without severely hindering your game plan?
I would like to point out that disdainful stroke does not counter a bestow herald. CMC does not change when you pay the bestow cost. it's still a 3 CMC card
I would like to point out that disdainful stroke does not counter a bestow herald. CMC does not change when you pay the bestow cost. it's still a 3 CMC card
Because I simply don't value a Think Tank with upside enough to consider it in Type 2. If you could reliably turn on Thassa, then I'd have a second look.
Mono Blue Devotion was the most powerful Thassa deck bar none, but I can assure you that if she was simply a Think Tank that Scry'd and could make things unblockable, she would be borderline unplayable.
Being a Creature card has more synergy in the deck than a simple enchantment. Nighthowler and Nemesis count her in the graveyard. When milled, Sidisi counts her. Soul of Innistrad can get her back from the graveyard. She can be Whipped back and activated much cheaper than you could Whip back Herald and bestow something on it, not to mention the risk of it getting burned/killed in response.
Is she more powerful as a creature? Definitely, and some extra tweaking could be done to make that a possibility. However, not becoming a creature might actually be better because she'll dodge Abzan Charm, Suspension Field, Jeskai Charm, and Silence the Believers(maybe?), while only really being threatened by Utter End and Banishing Light. Sure, your opponent could just use that removal on the other creatures, but they're going to do that with or without Thassa on the field, anyway.
I'm not saying you have to pick one or the other. It's possible to run both. I'm just saying it might be something to consider.
I wonder if Dig Through Time would be better than Treasure Cruise? Being able to pick the strongest 2 of 7 sounds better than blindly drawing 3, and your mana base looks like it could support the UU.
- This version of the deck is an aggro deck, I don't see the reason to MB Doomwake or Soul, a card like Nemesis of Mortals or Boon Satyr just seems better.
- Running 4 fetches, even to just fuel delve isn't worth the life loss
- Pharika is terrible in my testing, it just seems very slow
- Again where aggro and Whip is just not good, we don't have a card like Shadowborn to make it amazing. Still testing Bow of Nylea but it seems a lot better.
They both have pros and cons to the point of being equal, IMO. I plan to test both.
I've been debating Doomwake in the MB of mine recently. There are times it does nothing after the turn it's played because I don't draw any enchantments. Also, we lose our best Whip target (Shadowborn Demon), but I think Whip can still be useful to bring back a huge Nighthowler to help recover or Nylea to let our big dude punch through chump blockers. Necropolis Fiend could be useful with Whip, too, since it'll gain haste.
Just to throw this out there: Any thoughts on Graverobber Spider? It has a built-in SftF for itself and the reach can be relevant against flying-heavy decks. I'm not too keen on the cost of the activated ability and that it's a 2/4, though.
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Brain Maggot
4 Nyx Weaver
3 Nighthowler
3 Herald of Torment
2 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Boon Satyr
2 Nemesis of Mortals
4 Strength from the Fallen
2 Murderous Cut
1 Bow of Nylea
I don't think we need board control. With SotF are board control is attacking. Are creatures are going to be so big they'll have to chump block, which is in essence are removal.
1 Whip of Erebos
Creatures: 25
3 Ashen Rider
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Hornet Queen
4 Nyx Weaver
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Siege Rhino
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Spells: 11
3 Commune with the Gods
1 Empty the Pits
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Murderous Cut
2 Rescue from the Underworld
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Bile Blight
4 Thoughtseize
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
The sideboard is still a work in progress but the main deck feel about right. This is kind of a dredge/reanimator/value deck. It doesn't rely in the graveyard to win, but it definitely uses it as a resource. The purpose of the deck is just to out value your opponent. Bloodsoaked champ/thoughtseize in the board is for control if that wasn't obvious, blight for empty the pits or aggro decks, Anafenza for other dredge/reanimator decks, and the singleton downfall is to bring in against ashiok decks to go up to 3 downfall. Let me know what you guys think!
I do have a question about the Pharika+SotF engine: I get that you can play a single Pharika to tutor for, but how many SotF's do you need to run before they start cloging your hand and opening plays?
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Sidisi depends, I prefer an aggro deck that curves out at a bestowed Herald of Torment, playing B/G makes the deck more streamlined so it's faster. Sidisi being a four drop is a little slow plus just isn't that big a body.
SoTF never clogs your hand as they proc, if you have one and play another you get two triggers. With Nylea out getting as many triggers is key to winning through trample or just flying over with Herald.
Agreed, im still waiting for someone to make a thread for it though.
@nerv - Drown in some number is mostly likely correct in the board, I still want some number of blights though. I don't like more than 1 whip main because of how much of your deck you sift through it's easy to find whip, there isn't much room for more and I think more is just a waste of spots anyway (same with empty). The nyx weavers can grab whip if it's been destroyed or milled if you really need (which most of the time you don't).
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Satyr Wayfinder
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Herald of Torment
4 Nighthowler
4 Nyx Weaver
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
2 Doomwake Giant
4 Strength from the fallen
4 Commune with the gods
2 Murderous cut
1 Liliana Vess
While I like your deck, I completely disagree about Whip. Whip is far better than Bow. You have two trample options which doesn't make Bow that much better. I would far rather gain a ton of life from the SotF trigger than just get DT on a creature that will crush their blocker anyways. Bow just does so little from my testing of the new environment.
I think slowing down the deck is a mistake. It seems foolish to me to run something like Courser when you can land a Nemesis or unmorph Rattleclaw into Sagu Mauler on T3 (speaking of which, Jeskai Tempo has nothing on Sagu unless they Disdainful Stroke it). Courser is an excellent card, but unless you go constellation heavy with Strength it does nothing for our main strategy (and even if you do go constellation heavy I wouldn't be so sure), and I'd rather have a fatty in play than draw a couple of cards while I'm doing graveyard shenanigans. Maybe a Doomwake Giant / Pharika package could fit in the side against weenie. I'm not saying either is better, but it's what makes sense to me.
Modern
Mono-U Tron
Zombie Loam
Infect
Legacy
Delver
TES
Typically, we've used Nylea, God of the Hunt or Herald of Torment to help get damage through, but a problem has popped up. Arbor Colossus is starting to see play again. It's a pretty big sponge to trample through and the monstrous ability kills whatever Herald was bestowed on. There's also Siege Rhino, Polukranos, and Courser that have really big butts which pose a serious problem for trample.
Then it hit me. Being in blue opens up Thassa, God of the Sea, and I think the ability to make a creature unblockable is really relevant right now. It allows Sidisi to survive combat, turns a monstrous Nemesis of Mortals into a 2-turn clock, and makes hard casting Nighthowler a viable option besides just needing a creature on the board. Also, Thassa and Nighthowler get around Disdainful Stroke which will probably see more play due to the rise of midrange.
4x Elvish Mystic
3x Nemesis of Mortals
4x Nighthowler
2x Nyx Weaver
4x Rattleclaw Mystic
2x Sagu Mauler
4x Satyr Wayfinder
4x Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
2x Thassa, God of the Sea
Sorcery (4)
4x Commune with the Gods
Enchantment (1)
1x Strength from the Fallen
2x Murderous Cut
Artifact (2)
2x Whip of Erebos
Land (22)
3x Forest
4x Llanowar Wastes
2x Mana Confluence
4x Opulent Palace
1x Swamp
2x Temple of Deceit
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Yavimaya Coast
3x Boon Satyr
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Hornet Nest
2x Hunt the Hunter
2x Negate
2x Reclamation Sage
3x Sedge Scorpion
1x Soul of Innistrad
The sideboard and mana base need some tweaking. I would like to fit 1-2 Doomwake Giant and a singleton Agent of Erebos in the side.
What makes this deck extra interesting to me is that we have a whole spectrum of cards that allows us to play control against faster aggro but overwhelm a slower midrangey-control build. We can cover a lot of ground with a solid sideboard plan.
Modern
Mono-U Tron
Zombie Loam
Infect
Legacy
Delver
TES
Herald of Torment only affects a single creature, and bestowing it takes up an entire turn which can leave you open to a blow out. When cast as an aura it can be countered by Disdainful Stroke and Negate, both of which saw a fair amount of play over the weekend. Even though it didn't see a lot of play, Herald-ing up a single big creature opens you up to Deflecting Palm, too.
Thassa can come down T2 (before risk of most counter magic) and start fixing draws. She can set up Nyx Weaver mills to make sure they trigger Sidisi, and lets Sidisi swing into anything without fear of dying. Instead of going a voltron-ish route by Nighthowler-ing or Herald-ing up a single creature, you could actually hard cast a Nighthowler to make unblockable. We've all seen how easy it is to make that guy huge. There's also Sagu Mauler, and an unblockable 6/6 with hexproof (the trample is irrelevant when unblockable) sounds pretty darn scary.
I guess my argument mainly comes down to this: Why give your opponent a chance to block, when you can take that away from them without severely hindering your game plan?
Mono Blue Devotion was the most powerful Thassa deck bar none, but I can assure you that if she was simply a Think Tank that Scry'd and could make things unblockable, she would be borderline unplayable.
I would like to point out that disdainful stroke does not counter a bestow herald. CMC does not change when you pay the bestow cost. it's still a 3 CMC card
I'll have to remember that. Thanks.
Being a Creature card has more synergy in the deck than a simple enchantment. Nighthowler and Nemesis count her in the graveyard. When milled, Sidisi counts her. Soul of Innistrad can get her back from the graveyard. She can be Whipped back and activated much cheaper than you could Whip back Herald and bestow something on it, not to mention the risk of it getting burned/killed in response.
Is she more powerful as a creature? Definitely, and some extra tweaking could be done to make that a possibility. However, not becoming a creature might actually be better because she'll dodge Abzan Charm, Suspension Field, Jeskai Charm, and Silence the Believers(maybe?), while only really being threatened by Utter End and Banishing Light. Sure, your opponent could just use that removal on the other creatures, but they're going to do that with or without Thassa on the field, anyway.
I'm not saying you have to pick one or the other. It's possible to run both. I'm just saying it might be something to consider.
This is what I've been running, blast to play although I still need to tweak the numbers a bit in regards to the mana base and a few general things.
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Hornet Queen
4 Nemesis of Mortals
4 Satyr Wayfinder
2 Herald of Torment
2 Nighthowler
1 Mogis's Marauder
4 Nyx Weaver
3 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
3 Forest
1 Island
3 Swamp
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Yavimaya Coast
4 Opulent Palace
4 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Commune with the Gods
3 Treasure Cruise