Usually I just quick play and clear 3 games rather easily against opponents that try to do the same. Why an opponent would take forever weighing dead cards against an empty board, stacked hand and a mutavault picking away at your life total is beyond the standard of logic and comprehension, but people do it or some stupid reason. I've played enough magic to know when I'm locked out of a game. Control mirrors can usually establish a very interesting dynamic so not conceding in that match-up is usually correct unless you're stupidly behind, but aggro and midrange should probably know when to pack it in so they have more time for games 2 and 3. Why someone would want to force a draw when a draw is just about as bad as a loss anymore is beyond me.
You better not make your durdling obvious. I've seen a control player get called for stalling for not attacking with his Elspeth tokens a few turns in a row because the control player was doing exactly what people here are advising.
I can just keep her in my hand and rev infinite. I think this is what Jensen did at GP Dallas in round 1.
Also, your stalling in response to his stalling is one of those two wrongs dont make a right things. I feel that ethically, you should play your game instead of resorting to cheating, too. Fact of the matter is that stalling IS against the rules, weather its a stall for a loss or a stall for a win.
It's not cheating if I don't try to win. Pass priority all day. Land go. Rev infinite. Discard. Go. Etc...
Yeah here I am pretty much talking about midrange and aggro decks that have been locked out. Control mirror... I don't know if I can blame anyone if they go to time.
You better not make your durdling obvious. I've seen a control player get called for stalling for not attacking with his Elspeth tokens a few turns in a row because the control player was doing exactly what people here are advising.
Also, your stalling in response to his stalling is one of those two wrongs dont make a right things. I feel that ethically, you should play your game instead of resorting to cheating, too. Fact of the matter is that stalling IS against the rules, weather its a stall for a loss or a stall for a win.
Why is it stalling to not kill your opponent? Isn't it your choice how you want to conduct your turns and win the game? If your opponent sees you have a board position that they cannot beat and does not want you to stall anymore, all they have to do is concede. Now, you cannot slow play your turns and take longer than normal, but I see nothing wrong with making 100 eslpeth tokens but choosing to win via mill if you so choose. Your opponent can stop this from happening at any time by conceding.
Edit: & by the same reasoning that your opponent does not have to concede to your 50+ life, hand of 3-5 counters, and 2 sphinx revelations is the same logic that you do not need to attack with your Elspeth tokens no matter the game state. You could be playing around ridiculous things but it doesn't matter.
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You are playing a the slowest deck possible with I assume 1/60 cards which wins you the game, then you complain about your games being slow?
I thought that the trade off of playing a deck which by design stalls the opponent and makes the game longer (yes you are doing this, not them), was that you would swap some losses and wins for draws?
Your opponent may very well have a plan to kill you or your wincon and deck you.
I think my problem is my game one doesn't take long enough. I need to win in 45 minutes, or lose in like 5 so I can win two more games. Even playing quickly and drawing all your win conditions, you still probably can't win in under 15 minutes. The longer game one goes (assuming you are winning, otherwise just scoop asap), the better.
Pretty much anyone outside of Jace could be RG for the next RG walker. Sarkhan could go back to his roots, we could get a four-ability Domri, The Fight Sculptor, maybe Koth could take up gardening, even Ral Zarek could become a hippie after smoking some dank Golgari rotweeds.
Great, more power mad judges tripping out over inconsequential nonsense. Please, measure my lands again with a protractor to make sure I tapped them exactly 90 degrees. No fancy electronic playmats? What is this, 1995?
You better not make your durdling obvious. I've seen a control player get called for stalling for not attacking with his Elspeth tokens a few turns in a row because the control player was doing exactly what people here are advising.
This is just a bad call by the judge. A player is under no obligation to finish their opponent off. If my opponent is so upset by this he can concede. I can not be told how and when to attack.
Back to the OT - as everyone here has pointed out. If your opponent refuses to concede, just take the 1-0-1 win. It's as simple as that. Take your own 20s per turn, use your Elixir at every opportunity and shuffle your library (and at Competitive REL make sure your opponent shuffles as well) and just make sure you are able to win with 100 tokens ready to swing at your opponent during turns.
I think my problem is my game one doesn't take long enough. I need to win in 45 minutes, or lose in like 5 so I can win two more games. Even playing quickly and drawing all your win conditions, you still probably can't win in under 15 minutes. The longer game one goes (assuming you are winning, otherwise just scoop asap), the better.
I actually had one scenario where I was playing against UWr control, and g1 I had the game locked up with jace at 7 counters and multiple counterspells in hand with my opponent having almost nothing in hand, I would have been able to ultimate jace next turn and take both of our elixirs and ride out the win. It was my first time playing the deck though and I thought quicken lasted the entire turn not just one spell, so I quickened a verdict to kill both his mutavaults and then resolved a divination as well, which earned me a game loss. G1 had taken 35 minutes and now I had 15 minutes to win 2 games against the basic mirror and I thought I was screwed. But I just played insanely aggressive, slamming any threat I could and attacking with mutavaults extremely aggressively and I actually won both games with 5 minutes to spare after resolving an Elspeth in both games.
But regardless, it is definitely unlikely (though possible) to win quickly with this deck, but that is the downside to playing it. It has much better g1 matchups against every deck and that is the advantage, and you look to win g1 in as long as possible. However, if you realize you cannot win g1, and don't want to end up with a draw this round, it may be best just to scoop asap and start playing quickly for g2/3
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This is just a bad call by the judge. A player is under no obligation to finish their opponent off. If my opponent is so upset by this he can concede. I can not be told how and when to attack.
Back to the OT - as everyone here has pointed out. If your opponent refuses to concede, just take the 1-0-1 win. It's as simple as that. Take your own 20s per turn, use your Elixir at every opportunity and shuffle your library (and at Competitive REL make sure your opponent shuffles as well) and just make sure you are able to win with 100 tokens ready to swing at your opponent during turns.
Pretty much anyone outside of Jace could be RG for the next RG walker. Sarkhan could go back to his roots, we could get a four-ability Domri, The Fight Sculptor, maybe Koth could take up gardening, even Ral Zarek could become a hippie after smoking some dank Golgari rotweeds.
Great, more power mad judges tripping out over inconsequential nonsense. Please, measure my lands again with a protractor to make sure I tapped them exactly 90 degrees. No fancy electronic playmats? What is this, 1995?
If you have access to a clock, then you can decide if you need to play defensively to force a draw, play aggressively to try to win the current game, or just concede an unwinnable game to play G2 in control mirror.
It happens at today's tournament, except me, playing Esper, was trying to force a draw. Opponent was playing Mono B devotion splash white. I lost G1 due to mana flood, and started G2 in a mana screwed state while opponent assembled the Black God+Weapon engine. It took me a long time to stabilize, found an Elspeth and slowly turn the tide and won the game. Now it had 3 minutes left, and after we drew our hand it's 2 minutes. I know my deck can't win a game in 2 minutes. I was holding a hand with creature removal and a single thoughtseize. I saw an underworld connections and two creatures in opponent's hand. Normally the best play is to take connections, but due to time limit, the best play would be taking the lower CMC creature. By this way, opponent could not have enough time to deal 20 damages, so I could force a draw.
The "I had you beat ages ago" argument is pretty poor. . .
On of the weaknesses of a deck that has 1 win con is... FINDING that wincon.
The reverse of this is a R/x player wanting you to conceded because you're at 1 life.
Its not about "I can still win" but "My opponent has to actually WIN". period.
So no... you totally can't make people concede pretty wild thing you want there actually, since you're choosing to play a deck with 1 wincon, and a alt wincon of letting the opponent deck them self. You should be prepared to deal with the repercussions of such a deck. Time managing opponents being 1 of them. Call a judge, bring a clock... whatever... but that might work against you at some point too. you might NEED to stall 1 day as a control player. (i know surprising right?). I suspect thats one of the reasons why U/X control is generally played less online, less "bluffing"/"stalling" such as it is.
I agree with most people in here. I play the elixir deck (though play two elspeth), and especially in the uw mirror the game can go 40-45 minutes. At a recent PTQ I think I only finished one match in time, and won all others by winning a long game 1 and drawing out g2. Though at a more recent event, and a bit more practice with my deck, I was able to play fast enough to finish all my games within time (and went 5-0, with only one match going 2-1).
It's just part of the deck. If you think the game is going long enough to warrant drawing out g1, force them to concede, or lose by time. Just play your turns in a timely manner.
I actually had one scenario where I was playing against UWr control, and g1 I had the game locked up with jace at 7 counters and multiple counterspells in hand with my opponent having almost nothing in hand, I would have been able to ultimate jace next turn and take both of our elixirs and ride out the win. It was my first time playing the deck though and I thought quicken lasted the entire turn not just one spell, so I quickened a verdict to kill both his mutavaults and then resolved a divination as well, which earned me a game loss. G1 had taken 35 minutes and now I had 15 minutes to win 2 games against the basic mirror and I thought I was screwed. But I just played insanely aggressive, slamming any threat I could and attacking with mutavaults extremely aggressively and I actually won both games with 5 minutes to spare after resolving an Elspeth in both games.
Was this from a long time ago? Doing what you did is a Game State Violation and only gets you a warning. The judge should return the divination to your hand, shuffle two cards from your hand into your library and give both you and your opponent a warning.
Was this from a long time ago? Doing what you did is a Game State Violation and only gets you a warning. The judge should return the divination to your hand, shuffle two cards from your hand into your library and give both you and your opponent a warning.
Yeah I agree, I argued the ruling and was pretty sure the judge was wrong but he ruled it as "drawing extra cards". It didn't make sense to me either since I asked my opponent if it would be okay for me to resolve a divination and he allowed it, then waited until I untapped to call the judge. I asked if exactly what you said should happen and he said it was a game loss even when I argued - it was unfortunate but I still won the match so I didn't worry about it.
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That's very odd. The definition of drawing cards itself includes a clause that says if an opponent acknowledges the card draw then it isn't drawing extra cards. If he said ok and then called a judge on your untap knowing that you couldn't legally cast divination then it's just cheating on his end and warrants a DQ. At least it worked out well for you though.
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It's not cheating if I don't try to win. Pass priority all day. Land go. Rev infinite. Discard. Go. Etc...
Why is it stalling to not kill your opponent? Isn't it your choice how you want to conduct your turns and win the game? If your opponent sees you have a board position that they cannot beat and does not want you to stall anymore, all they have to do is concede. Now, you cannot slow play your turns and take longer than normal, but I see nothing wrong with making 100 eslpeth tokens but choosing to win via mill if you so choose. Your opponent can stop this from happening at any time by conceding.
Edit: & by the same reasoning that your opponent does not have to concede to your 50+ life, hand of 3-5 counters, and 2 sphinx revelations is the same logic that you do not need to attack with your Elspeth tokens no matter the game state. You could be playing around ridiculous things but it doesn't matter.
UW Control :symu::symw:
UWr Control :symu::symw::symr:
I think my problem is my game one doesn't take long enough. I need to win in 45 minutes, or lose in like 5 so I can win two more games. Even playing quickly and drawing all your win conditions, you still probably can't win in under 15 minutes. The longer game one goes (assuming you are winning, otherwise just scoop asap), the better.
This is just a bad call by the judge. A player is under no obligation to finish their opponent off. If my opponent is so upset by this he can concede. I can not be told how and when to attack.
Back to the OT - as everyone here has pointed out. If your opponent refuses to concede, just take the 1-0-1 win. It's as simple as that. Take your own 20s per turn, use your Elixir at every opportunity and shuffle your library (and at Competitive REL make sure your opponent shuffles as well) and just make sure you are able to win with 100 tokens ready to swing at your opponent during turns.
I actually had one scenario where I was playing against UWr control, and g1 I had the game locked up with jace at 7 counters and multiple counterspells in hand with my opponent having almost nothing in hand, I would have been able to ultimate jace next turn and take both of our elixirs and ride out the win. It was my first time playing the deck though and I thought quicken lasted the entire turn not just one spell, so I quickened a verdict to kill both his mutavaults and then resolved a divination as well, which earned me a game loss. G1 had taken 35 minutes and now I had 15 minutes to win 2 games against the basic mirror and I thought I was screwed. But I just played insanely aggressive, slamming any threat I could and attacking with mutavaults extremely aggressively and I actually won both games with 5 minutes to spare after resolving an Elspeth in both games.
But regardless, it is definitely unlikely (though possible) to win quickly with this deck, but that is the downside to playing it. It has much better g1 matchups against every deck and that is the advantage, and you look to win g1 in as long as possible. However, if you realize you cannot win g1, and don't want to end up with a draw this round, it may be best just to scoop asap and start playing quickly for g2/3
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I don't think Elixir makes my opponent shuffle.
The "drag out g1 until your opponent concedes" strategy is indeed what Jensen did in round 1 of the GP finals. 61 health 4 counterspells no problem.
If you have access to a clock, then you can decide if you need to play defensively to force a draw, play aggressively to try to win the current game, or just concede an unwinnable game to play G2 in control mirror.
It happens at today's tournament, except me, playing Esper, was trying to force a draw. Opponent was playing Mono B devotion splash white. I lost G1 due to mana flood, and started G2 in a mana screwed state while opponent assembled the Black God+Weapon engine. It took me a long time to stabilize, found an Elspeth and slowly turn the tide and won the game. Now it had 3 minutes left, and after we drew our hand it's 2 minutes. I know my deck can't win a game in 2 minutes. I was holding a hand with creature removal and a single thoughtseize. I saw an underworld connections and two creatures in opponent's hand. Normally the best play is to take connections, but due to time limit, the best play would be taking the lower CMC creature. By this way, opponent could not have enough time to deal 20 damages, so I could force a draw.
The "I had you beat ages ago" argument is pretty poor. . .
On of the weaknesses of a deck that has 1 win con is... FINDING that wincon.
The reverse of this is a R/x player wanting you to conceded because you're at 1 life.
Its not about "I can still win" but "My opponent has to actually WIN". period.
So no... you totally can't make people concede pretty wild thing you want there actually, since you're choosing to play a deck with 1 wincon, and a alt wincon of letting the opponent deck them self. You should be prepared to deal with the repercussions of such a deck. Time managing opponents being 1 of them. Call a judge, bring a clock... whatever... but that might work against you at some point too. you might NEED to stall 1 day as a control player. (i know surprising right?). I suspect thats one of the reasons why U/X control is generally played less online, less "bluffing"/"stalling" such as it is.
It's just part of the deck. If you think the game is going long enough to warrant drawing out g1, force them to concede, or lose by time. Just play your turns in a timely manner.
Was this from a long time ago? Doing what you did is a Game State Violation and only gets you a warning. The judge should return the divination to your hand, shuffle two cards from your hand into your library and give both you and your opponent a warning.
Yeah I agree, I argued the ruling and was pretty sure the judge was wrong but he ruled it as "drawing extra cards". It didn't make sense to me either since I asked my opponent if it would be okay for me to resolve a divination and he allowed it, then waited until I untapped to call the judge. I asked if exactly what you said should happen and he said it was a game loss even when I argued - it was unfortunate but I still won the match so I didn't worry about it.
UW Control :symu::symw:
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