In MTG "combos" have a much more specific meaning. What you are referring to can described as synergy, but just because a group of cards interact in a synergistic way does not make them a combo. Your semantic argument is doomed because "combo" has a well defined meaning in MTG, and goblins and devotion do not fall into that definition.
Would Piledriver be optimal in a non-goblin aggro deck?
Would Grey-Merchant be optimal in a non-devotion deck?
These cards REQUIRE enablers to function optimally enough to get played. They can only be played with the enablers, never without. Just because you aren't trying to do a turn 4 Worldspine Wurm with a Whip (or some other ridiculous plan), doesn't mean it's not control.
As far as I'm concerned if I HAVE to play cards B, C, and D in order to play card A, then I'm on combo.
I'm playing junk midrange only splashing white for baron and Obzedat. Use underworld for card draw, play midrange creature game, caryatid and saytr into polukanous and desecration demon, then baron and the ghost.
Abrupt and charm are really good right now, skew black for cure and blade out the side. Don't think you need the 4th downfall right now.
Worst match ups will be the faster swarm decks.
Just play a 1 for 1 game while ramping and removing threats until you can resolve a connections or a few junklings.
Unfortunately boon saytr and polo are the best defence against baron, I use scavenging Ooze to ofset the life drain but pack rat might be better. Mistcutter against control will also be good and is a strong card when you get flooded, too many dorks or the match ups go really long
Will post a list soon
Would Piledriver be optimal in a non-goblin aggro deck?
Would Grey-Merchant be optimal in a non-devotion deck?
These cards REQUIRE enablers to function optimally enough to get played. They can only be played with the enablers, never without. Just because you aren't trying to do a turn 4 Worldspine Wurm with a Whip (or some other ridiculous plan), doesn't mean it's not control.
As far as I'm concerned if I HAVE to play cards B, C, and D in order to play card A, then I'm on combo.
As has been mentioned, the idea you are referring to is synergy. Combo is an entirely different concept.
Rapid Hybridization and Tidebinder Mage or Mutavault and Master of Waves is just good synergy.
A combo is something that allows you to either win the game or overwhelm your opponent to the point where you will win the game if they can't answer immediately.
Like Mono blue flooding the board with tokens due to the devotion you didn't interact with?
Like Mono black super draining your life since you couldn't stop the devotion build up?
You literally described the two most popular decks in standard, and both happen to be devotion.
I think it's a great deck with a lot of potential. I like a blue splash for gainsay, because it is too slow against control without a way of countering revelation - watch Kibler lose at SCG LA for an example. Ashiok shreds midrange too. Should be pretty well positioned for born of the gods, I foresee a boost to UG given how crappy it is now. Kiora will be a nice addition for a start.
I don't think you are looking at blue in standard. We have no universal 2-drop counterspell, no 1-drop card that affects the board state, and a ton of decks looking to develop a board quick, with resiliency.
You need a sweeper right now.
Build a blue-white control deck without Supreme Verdict or a card that has the same effect and try it at an fnm. You will get run over by every devotion deck you run into.
On the combo comment:
If you build your deck to require certain enablers, A.K.A. a combo card, it's a combo deck. I've not seen a tribal deck in standard except maybe Humans with Innistrad, and the deck seemed very combo-y.
When you need to COMBINE the effects of two cards for either to be threatening, it is a combo.
I have a question. Do you think monoblack combo or monoblue combo is the better deck right now? I think monoblack combo is, but monoblue combo definitely has a edge against monored combo, but monoblack is better against RW combo.
Seriously, every deck is a combo deck by your definition.
I think you are correct about straight Golgari midrange. It features plenty of answers but few relevant threats.
You can go black devotion splashing green, or splash another color (I'd suggest white) for increasing your threats. I thing pure Golgari midrange just presents you with worse versions of other decks.
And Junk builds, while difficult due to so many good cards available to you, also present you with some mana difficulties, so building and testing/tuning will take some time/effort.
People, in this case ZRAM, need to quit throwing dictionaries at each other and realize that words have very specific meanings in certain contexts. "Combo" has a more specific meaning in MTG than in general, so this nonsense:
So guys im running a list of Golgari as well. Everyone has mixed feelings about this guy but what do people think about
Dreg Mangler?
my bersion runs heavy black light green and i run him at least as a 3 of. I just think he is good. Haste is always handy, the scavenge is nice if you ever can get to it, and whipping it back is another option if you cant scavenge it
So guys im running a list of Golgari as well. Everyone has mixed feelings about this guy but what do people think about
Dreg Mangler?
my bersion runs heavy black light green and i run him at least as a 3 of. I just think he is good. Haste is always handy, the scavenge is nice if you ever can get to it, and whipping it back is another option if you cant scavenge it
I'd need to see the rest of the deck. Is your wincon aggro beats or a Gray Merchant drop?
I recently replaced my Dreg Manglers with Lotleth Trolls as they are very versatile. I can pitch to them to make them bigger if I want, but more importantly I can have a blocker that can chump anything and regen for B. Since I win by dropping Gary with a few Underworlds and a Whip out, the troll being able to stall out aggro proved more valuable than Mangler.
I'd need to see the rest of the deck. Is your wincon aggro beats or a Gray Merchant drop?
I recently replaced my Dreg Manglers with Lotleth Trolls as they are very versatile. I can pitch to them to make them bigger if I want, but more importantly I can have a blocker that can chump anything and regen for B. Since I win by dropping Gary with a few Underworlds and a Whip out, the troll being able to stall out aggro proved more valuable than Mangler.
I can totally see replacing dreg with troll. I havent been to an FNM in awhile so i havent had a chance to test out the difference to see if i would like it.
I have multiple win cons in the deck. Whether thats correct or incorrect is yet to be determined but we will soon find out lol
I have won with the aggro approach, with just timely kill spells, and beat face with dreg mangler's + mutavault.
There are also games where i win with Shadowborn Demon.. ya i said it... Shadowborn demon lol
My deck is no where near Starcity quality, this is just for a semi competative FNM base, so dont destroy my ideas too heavily lol
I can type up the decklist within the next couple days when i get free time from work.
I've been wanting to make a competitive Golgari deck as well. It's tough and can take down most decks. The biggest problems I have is super aggro decks.
Here's one I came up with: (I don't know how to make the deck thing like ZRAM did)
Creatures:
3x Deathrite Shaman
3x Desecration Demon
4x Dreg Mangler
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4x Pack Rat
4x Reaper of the Wilds
I think one of the major things you're missing is Pack Rat. Especially if you draw a bum late game card like Thoughtseize, just chuck it and get another rat.
I like playing lotleth troll AND Dreg Mangler together. I can play the troll turn 2. Feed the mangler to the troll and attack for 3. At a later time, I can scavenge the mangler and attack for more. Now you have a big body creature that tramples and regenerates. Your opponenet will have to try to get rid of it, while you are holding onto other cast-able big fatties.
I don't get the people talking about "combo" decks. Combos are when you break a card and create some kind of out-of-nowhere win condition that was very clearly not intended to exist per the original text of the cards - usually involving creating a near-infinite supply of something or cheating out a giant power creature on turn two or whatever. Think channel-fireball, necropotence-cadaverous bloom, etc. There aren't any of them seeing a tonne of play right now. The biggest "combo" in standard right now is the boros reckoner infinite life trick and no one does it. I know that japanese guy called the Nykthos monstrous thing a combo deck, but he's just dead wrong about that, plain and simple.
I think the key to understanding what a combo deck is, is understanding what synergy is, and that great synergy is not a "combo". They're different things. Generally speaking, if you are missing one element of a combo, the whole thing does absolutely nothing, whereas if you're missing elements of your synergy, the deck still works.
I've been thinking about running a golgari midrangey deck. I was thinking running a pack rat scavanging ozze'combo. What does everyone think about their synergy
Pack rat and scavenging ooze don't really have any combo unless you mean "pack rat discards things. If they're creatures, scavenging ooze eats them". But that isn't really realistic given that if you're going all in with pack rat, you won't have a ton of spare mana to be using ooze with. They're not even really synergistic. Doesn't mean you can't play them in the same deck but don't be expecting one to really help the other.
I don't think you are looking at blue in standard. We have no universal 2-drop counterspell, no 1-drop card that affects the board state, and a ton of decks looking to develop a board quick, with resiliency.
You need a sweeper right now.
Build a blue-white control deck without Supreme Verdict or a card that has the same effect and try it at an fnm. You will get run over by every devotion deck you run into.
On the combo comment:
If you build your deck to require certain enablers, A.K.A. a combo card, it's a combo deck. I've not seen a tribal deck in standard except maybe Humans with Innistrad, and the deck seemed very combo-y.
When you need to COMBINE the effects of two cards for either to be threatening, it is a combo.
You are about as wrong as you can be. You make sweeping assertions as if you are the only one who gets to play relevant cards. Curse of swine, aetherise rapid hybridization to name a few. And you call synergy combo, which is just flat out WRONG.
I don't get the people talking about "combo" decks. Combos are when you break a card and create some kind of out-of-nowhere win condition that was very clearly not intended to exist per the original text of the cards - usually involving creating a near-infinite supply of something or cheating out a giant power creature on turn two or whatever. Think channel-fireball, necropotence-cadaverous bloom, etc. There aren't any of them seeing a tonne of play right now. The biggest "combo" in standard right now is the boros reckoner infinite life trick and no one does it. I know that japanese guy called the Nykthos monstrous thing a combo deck, but he's just dead wrong about that, plain and simple.
I think the key to understanding what a combo deck is, is understanding what synergy is, and that great synergy is not a "combo". They're different things. Generally speaking, if you are missing one element of a combo, the whole thing does absolutely nothing, whereas if you're missing elements of your synergy, the deck still works.
I don't really disagree with Mihara calling his deck "combo". Barring a grevious mistake, Nykthos is the closest thing Wizards has given us to a true "combo" deck. The deck is essentially looking to "go off"; not to play dudes on curve, collect value, or the like. It wants to flood the field with devotion symbols and then do degenerate things.
As the OP probably realizes by now combo means something very specific in Magic. Have him pilot Eggs or Storm, and he'll get the picture.
The biggest thing the OP can learn if he wants to be competitive in standard, is not to latch onto a two color combination regardless of the meta, and hope cards get printed to make it good, or he can figure out how to tune it to make it good. The meta is what it is at a given time, and it fluctuates and changes as people respond to the top decks. Look at the top archetypes, and adopt, brew, or tweak a deck that preys on those decks. You need to be flexible in standard and in brewing in general, locking onto a color pair isn't flexible.
And can WE PLEASE stop giving cute titles to threads or decklists? I swear people spend more time thinking of a cute stupid name for their deck than they actually spend tuning it.
Around Thanksgiving I played in GP Albuquerque and won 9 rounds in a row with Golgari midrange. My decklist was different than the one shown in the opening post but the general concept was the same. During the tournament I found that Golgari had strong matchups against most things in the lower rungs of the field including R/W weenie, G/W aggro, G/R devotion, and players who thought they had "improved" the blue and black devotion decks by making non-typical card choices.
Unfortunately, when you win 9 straight rounds in a GP you eventually find yourself up against Platinum Pros playing ideal versions of the top 3 decks. I ended up losing badly to a Platinum Pro playing Esper Control, a Platinum Pro playing mono-black devotion, and a Platinum Pro playing mono-blue devotion.
In summary, I think Golgari is a "forced" color choice right now and if you play it you should know that its not ideal for beating the top "meta" decks. Patrick Chapin and Brian Kibler were also on Golgari midrange in that same tournament and finished with slightly worse records than me. If those two veterans got run over by a field of mono-blue and mono-black than I assume that the same would happen to newer players as well.
Also Born Of The Gods isn't going to be adding any amazing tools to Golgari and Wizards decided to make BG wait for its Scry land until the last set in the block. I don't see its spot in the meta changing any time soon.
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Standard GB Midrange with Vraska - Won 9 matches in a row at GP Albuquerque
Legacy U Merfolk with Standstill //// R Dragon Stompy
Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow will both help Golgari. Bile Blight will be going in my MB. A well timed Bile Blight takes out Pack Rat. It takes out MoW and any multiples (and then all of their tokens). It takes out every Elspeth token so you can swing in. It drop Soldier of the Pantheon, BTE into BTE into BTE, Zealots, Cacklers, Mystics, Reckoners, Voice, and Nightveil Specter.
My weakest matchups with my Golgari Devotion deck are fast aggro. Fast aggro means:
Rakdos/RDW aggro
White Weenie (mainly just SoP, the rest were easy to deal with)
Black Devotion with Turn 2 Pack Rat
MUD if MoW hits
Well...Bile Blight takes care of most of these issues. That coupled with Drown in Sorrow will be very hard to deal with for these decks.
I love the card selection for golgari and have been playing it 3-4 nights a week at channelfireball for about a month now. You have to make it fast enough to face the consistency and flow of the U and B devotions. Because they are God heavy I took out putrefy and main decked 2 Fade to Antiquity. 75% of the decks I play are devotion so I main 3 ultimate Price -it helps with turn 2 pack rat. Problem is its not consistent enough. The guildgate slows.
I admit, I was black heavy splash green but I think I should do the opposite. I will try Monday.
But a card in BNG gives me hope. Courser of Kruphix with Pack Rat.
4 Courser 4 Caryatid should slow aggro.
Would Piledriver be optimal in a non-goblin aggro deck?
Would Grey-Merchant be optimal in a non-devotion deck?
These cards REQUIRE enablers to function optimally enough to get played. They can only be played with the enablers, never without. Just because you aren't trying to do a turn 4 Worldspine Wurm with a Whip (or some other ridiculous plan), doesn't mean it's not control.
As far as I'm concerned if I HAVE to play cards B, C, and D in order to play card A, then I'm on combo.
Let me know when you do, I'm interested.
As has been mentioned, the idea you are referring to is synergy. Combo is an entirely different concept.
Her Shop on Etsy
THS-KTK: Rabble Red
RTR-THS: Dega Midrange
INN-RTR: Boros Humans
SOM-INN: B/u Control
Modern: Mono-Black Infect
Not really. It's the need for other cards that determines the difference.
Like Mono blue flooding the board with tokens due to the devotion you didn't interact with?
Like Mono black super draining your life since you couldn't stop the devotion build up?
You literally described the two most popular decks in standard, and both happen to be devotion.
Here's a list i've been messing with. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11437597&postcount=566
I have a question. Do you think monoblack combo or monoblue combo is the better deck right now? I think monoblack combo is, but monoblue combo definitely has a edge against monored combo, but monoblack is better against RW combo.
Seriously, every deck is a combo deck by your definition.
You can go black devotion splashing green, or splash another color (I'd suggest white) for increasing your threats. I thing pure Golgari midrange just presents you with worse versions of other decks.
And Junk builds, while difficult due to so many good cards available to you, also present you with some mana difficulties, so building and testing/tuning will take some time/effort.
Yes, really. Both concepts need multiple cards to function correctly. For example:
Goblin Guide + Goblin Piledriver = Synergy
Channel + Fireball = Combo
All decks at some level need their cards to work together. Your definition, taken to the extreme, looks like this:
Mountain + Lightning Bolt = Combo
Her Shop on Etsy
THS-KTK: Rabble Red
RTR-THS: Dega Midrange
INN-RTR: Boros Humans
SOM-INN: B/u Control
Modern: Mono-Black Infect
...doesn't cut it at all. You might as well claim that an enchantment is the same as a sorcery, or that this thing has anything to do out on a baseball field.
Now, let's talk about the deck.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Dreg Mangler?
my bersion runs heavy black light green and i run him at least as a 3 of. I just think he is good. Haste is always handy, the scavenge is nice if you ever can get to it, and whipping it back is another option if you cant scavenge it
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
I'd need to see the rest of the deck. Is your wincon aggro beats or a Gray Merchant drop?
I recently replaced my Dreg Manglers with Lotleth Trolls as they are very versatile. I can pitch to them to make them bigger if I want, but more importantly I can have a blocker that can chump anything and regen for B. Since I win by dropping Gary with a few Underworlds and a Whip out, the troll being able to stall out aggro proved more valuable than Mangler.
I can totally see replacing dreg with troll. I havent been to an FNM in awhile so i havent had a chance to test out the difference to see if i would like it.
I have multiple win cons in the deck. Whether thats correct or incorrect is yet to be determined but we will soon find out lol
I have won with the aggro approach, with just timely kill spells, and beat face with dreg mangler's + mutavault.
But there are games that i win with Black devotion's very own Gray merchant of Asphodel.
There are also games where i win with Shadowborn Demon.. ya i said it... Shadowborn demon lol
My deck is no where near Starcity quality, this is just for a semi competative FNM base, so dont destroy my ideas too heavily lol
I can type up the decklist within the next couple days when i get free time from work.
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
Here's one I came up with: (I don't know how to make the deck thing like ZRAM did)
Creatures:
3x Deathrite Shaman
3x Desecration Demon
4x Dreg Mangler
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4x Pack Rat
4x Reaper of the Wilds
Instants:
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Golgari Charm
3x Hero's Downfall
1x Pharika's Cure
2x Putrefy
1x Ultimate Price
Sorcery:
3x Thoughtseize
With 24 lands, 3 being Mutavault.
Side:
2x Pithing Needle
2x Skylasher
2x Lifebane Zombie
2x Doom Blade
2x Pharika's Cure
1x Ultimate Price
2x Fade Into Antiquity
I think one of the major things you're missing is Pack Rat. Especially if you draw a bum late game card like Thoughtseize, just chuck it and get another rat.
Hope this helps!
I think the key to understanding what a combo deck is, is understanding what synergy is, and that great synergy is not a "combo". They're different things. Generally speaking, if you are missing one element of a combo, the whole thing does absolutely nothing, whereas if you're missing elements of your synergy, the deck still works.
UWheroic U W
You are about as wrong as you can be. You make sweeping assertions as if you are the only one who gets to play relevant cards. Curse of swine, aetherise rapid hybridization to name a few. And you call synergy combo, which is just flat out WRONG.
I don't really disagree with Mihara calling his deck "combo". Barring a grevious mistake, Nykthos is the closest thing Wizards has given us to a true "combo" deck. The deck is essentially looking to "go off"; not to play dudes on curve, collect value, or the like. It wants to flood the field with devotion symbols and then do degenerate things.
The biggest thing the OP can learn if he wants to be competitive in standard, is not to latch onto a two color combination regardless of the meta, and hope cards get printed to make it good, or he can figure out how to tune it to make it good. The meta is what it is at a given time, and it fluctuates and changes as people respond to the top decks. Look at the top archetypes, and adopt, brew, or tweak a deck that preys on those decks. You need to be flexible in standard and in brewing in general, locking onto a color pair isn't flexible.
And can WE PLEASE stop giving cute titles to threads or decklists? I swear people spend more time thinking of a cute stupid name for their deck than they actually spend tuning it.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
Unfortunately, when you win 9 straight rounds in a GP you eventually find yourself up against Platinum Pros playing ideal versions of the top 3 decks. I ended up losing badly to a Platinum Pro playing Esper Control, a Platinum Pro playing mono-black devotion, and a Platinum Pro playing mono-blue devotion.
In summary, I think Golgari is a "forced" color choice right now and if you play it you should know that its not ideal for beating the top "meta" decks. Patrick Chapin and Brian Kibler were also on Golgari midrange in that same tournament and finished with slightly worse records than me. If those two veterans got run over by a field of mono-blue and mono-black than I assume that the same would happen to newer players as well.
Also Born Of The Gods isn't going to be adding any amazing tools to Golgari and Wizards decided to make BG wait for its Scry land until the last set in the block. I don't see its spot in the meta changing any time soon.
GB Midrange with Vraska - Won 9 matches in a row at GP Albuquerque
Legacy
U Merfolk with Standstill //// R Dragon Stompy
Commander
GRWUB Horde Of Notions - Tribal Elementals //// RGB Prossh - Token Madness
Casual
GWSoliders Tribal //// GTreefolk Tribal
My weakest matchups with my Golgari Devotion deck are fast aggro. Fast aggro means:
Rakdos/RDW aggro
White Weenie (mainly just SoP, the rest were easy to deal with)
Black Devotion with Turn 2 Pack Rat
MUD if MoW hits
Well...Bile Blight takes care of most of these issues. That coupled with Drown in Sorrow will be very hard to deal with for these decks.
I admit, I was black heavy splash green but I think I should do the opposite. I will try Monday.
But a card in BNG gives me hope. Courser of Kruphix with Pack Rat.
4 Courser 4 Caryatid should slow aggro.
For Monday -
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Boon Satyr
4 Witchstalker
2 Disciple of Nylea
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Arbor Colossus
3 Ultimate Price
2 Fade to Antiquity
2 Pit Fight
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Read the Bones
1 Bow of Nylea
side
3 Golgari Charm
4 Mistcutter Hydra
4 Dark Betrayal
4 Doom Blade
I don't know. Just of the top of my head on my phone. .. I'll tag when I get home.
I know it's green devotion but removal helps.