so i tried testing with 0 magma jet and 3-4 read the bones and while read the bones is powerful, its really hard to play with thoughtseize. I also sorely missed magmajet in many matchups.
what i did like a lot were desecration demon, blood baron and the dragon. wow the dragon just steals games. i'm not gonna go the obzedat route. maybe i'll add a few in the sb but i hate the mana base. i think 3-4 magma jet and 2-3 read the bones is where i want to be. just need to find room.
I don't like chained to the rocks. You almost never will have a land to turn 1 it and after that you might as well play 2 cmc removal without fear of enchantment removal.
Chained is not for turn 1 removal, it is for T2 removal without shocking yourself or getting in an early scry.
Is everyone sold on using the Whip/Obzedat plan? Seems like most people here are trying out at least 1 whip. I will probably test it out this weekend but I'm not sure what to cut for it.
Whip leads to insane amounts of Lifegain and let's me back off of the Aggro plan using Blood Barons, which let's me lower the MB baron count and fit in Obzedat, which is far better than Baron when it is life linking as well as his usual abilities.
so i tried testing with 0 magma jet and 3-4 read the bones and while read the bones is powerful, its really hard to play with thoughtseize. I also sorely missed magmajet in many matchups.
Drawing cards is not as powerful as filtering cards in our deck's situation. This was kind of the issue last season with the deck as well.
This deck REALLY cares more about card quality than card quantity. Drawing 2 with Sign in Blood was a lot weaker when the 2 cards were low impact cards relative to the match up. This is why Faithless Looting was the primary draw.
While Read the Bones achieves both card quality and card quantity, running the card demands that you set disruption cards like Thoughtseize aside, which in turn lowers the quality of spells you are running in the MB and the life loss becomes relevant when you are drawing lower impact cards.
Read the Bones is stupid powerful, but I think when we have access to Magma Jet, I can worry less about the raw card drawing that RtB gives when I get to run powerful cards like Thoughtseize to protect my other high impact cards.
Whip of Erebos plus Obzedat seems gimmicky to me. I guess I will have to do some testing, but relying on getting two cards out to fully closeout a game seems risky. Plus I can play multiple Blood Barons, but only one Obzedat at a time.
Whip isn't just there for Obzedat though. It gives Boros Reckoner LL (as well as everything else). It can just be dumb amounts of life for no reason other than you spent 4 mana once. Bringing back Aurelia, Dragons or Obzedats with LL is stupid.
It also gives you reach in it's ability to reanimate things.
I haven't done extensive testing with the deck yet, but I don't think it will have any glaring mana issues. Most of the cards in my deck have already been discussed to death so I won't go into any details. The one standout thing would be running 3 Slaughter Games in the side. I think control will give us some problems now that counterspells can be utilized to their fullest and Slaughter Games is the only "can't be countered" our deck can run and I believe that it will be invaluable in hitting Aetherling before they can even play it. Pithing Needle can be removed and Aetherling is just to damn annoying to play around.
Elsepth is in for testing against other Midrange strategies. I do think that Sin Collector being mainboard isn't a horrible thing against aggro as it blocks a swing and it can let us view their hand.
I haven't done extensive testing with the deck yet, but I don't think it will have any glaring mana issues. Most of the cards in my deck have already been discussed to death so I won't go into any details. The one standout thing would be running 3 Slaughter Games in the side. I think control will give us some problems now that counterspells can be utilized to their fullest and Slaughter Games is the only "can't be countered" our deck can run and I believe that it will be invaluable in hitting Aetherling before they can even play it. Pithing Needle can be removed and Aetherling is just to damn annoying to play around.
Elsepth is in for testing against other Midrange strategies. I do think that Sin Collector being mainboard isn't a horrible thing against aggro as it blocks a swing and it can let us view their hand.
The mutavaults seem awful with boros reckoner in your deck, how do you intend to cast them turn 3 with that swamp and the 2 colorless lands?
Kamahl, I agree on your points about read the bones. Probably much better in Mbc or BW. We don't have the speed or luxury of taking advantage of it IMO.
This deck REALLY cares more about card quality than card quantity. Drawing 2 with Sign in Blood was a lot weaker when the 2 cards were low impact cards relative to the match up. This is why Faithless Looting was the primary draw.
This is simply not true. Faithless Looting and Magma Jet are two completely different card. One filters and lets you get rid of chaff in your hand (similar to brainstorm /w fetchlands)..and it costs one mana...and it lets you do it twice...and you could you could "break" the card disadvantage by discarding Lingering Souls/Unburial Rites, the other simply gives you a bit of quality (sometimes) and information. I'm done arguing this. I guess we will have to disagree. I'll sulk in my corner with my list and try to stop being a pedantic ass about this.
This is simply not true. Faithless Looting and Magma Jet are two completely different card. One filters and lets you get rid of chaff in your hand..and it costs one mana...and it lets you do it twice...and you could you could "break" the card disadvantage by discarding Lingering Souls/Unburial Rites, the other simply give you a bit of quality (sometimes) and information. I'm done arguing this. I guess we will have to disagree. I'll sulk in my corner with my list and try to stop being a pedantic ass about this.
i do agree that they are totally different cards, but magma jet is better. it isn't card disadvantage and in this format we don't have access to that type of recursion via flashback anyway.
i think read the bones is very powerful. draw 2 is a big deal, i just feel with shock lands, thoughtseize and just a slow deck in general, the deck really can't find the life lenience to spend on draw.
Cerberus works wonders with Aurelia. So much evasion. If you guys get a chance try running a 2 of on Cerberus and Aurelia. Whip also seems amazing to bring back countered creatures. Bringing back an Aurelia sounds amazing, not to mention the life-link included.
Just swung for 18 (Cerberus + Aurelia) opponent was shocked.
This is simply not true. Faithless Looting and Magma Jet are two completely different card. One filters and lets you get rid of chaff in your hand (similar to brainstorm /w fetchlands)..and it costs one mana...and it lets you do it twice...and you could you could "break" the card disadvantage by discarding Lingering Souls/Unburial Rites, the other simply gives you a bit of quality (sometimes) and information. I'm done arguing this. I guess we will have to disagree. I'll sulk in my corner with my list and try to stop being a pedantic ass about this.
Two cards with the same underlying functionality of sifting through the good and bad. Pitching Lingering Souls? That strategy has not been done since... the first quarter of 2013...
The purpose of looting since then, has been so you can see relevant cards and toss what is not relevant. Magma Jet does the exact same thing without ever putting it into your hand. Without Flashback for Rites, drawing the card is actually not all that relevant, so long as you scryp bad cards away and leave relevant ones on top. The job they perform is the same, with the bonus of blasting off dorks early.
Their roles are very comparable, maybe not when you are looking back at archaic lists that run Lingering Souls.
Why you went from 0-60 on this is also, way beyond me. You act like this is some heated debate...
Two cards with the same underlying functionality of sifting through the good and bad. Pitching Lingering Souls? That strategy has not been done since... the first quarter of 2013...
The purpose of looting since then, has been so you can see relevant cards and toss what is not relevant. Magma Jet does the exact same thing without ever putting it into your hand. Without Flashback for Rites, drawing the card is actually not all that relevant, so long as you scryp bad cards away and leave relevant ones on top. The job they perform is the same, with the bonus of blasting off dorks early.
Their roles are very comparable, maybe not when you are looking back at archaic lists that run Lingering Souls.
Why you went from 0-60 on this is also, way beyond me. You act like this is some heated debate...
I'd say he went from 0-60 because your argument makes very little sense, and it's frustrating to read it. There's a universe of distance between a looting spell in a format with lots of graveyard-relevant cards, and a narrow removal spell that manipulates topdecks. Yes, both of them filter, and they're both red--but that's where all the similarities end.
You don't have to, but you probably should stop saying they're comparable. A lot of your posts are very smart; I like the way you usually think, but in this case I think maybe you should step back and rethink how you're evaluating these cards. I respect you, but in this case I think you might be missing something big.
In the past standard, i never felt as faithless looting was worth it. it was card disadvantage and unless you had unburial rites, or lignering souls, you weren't getting the value out of it.
Magma jet is the effect we really wanted. 2 damage to the dome or to early creatures while at the same time flitering and smoothign out our draws.
The real question that needs to be answered is whether or not we need a source of card advantage to stay competitive vs control decks. That means in what capacity should we be playing read the bones, underworld connections and chandra?
I've faced tough games where my opponent would just get ahead behind the card advantage by chandra's +0 in the mirror. In those slower matchups, we need somethign to match that imo.
I'd say he went from 0-60 because your argument makes very little sense, and it's frustrating to read it. There's a universe of distance between a looting spell in a format with lots of graveyard-relevant cards, and a narrow removal spell that manipulates topdecks. Yes, both of them filter, and they're both red--but that's where all the similarities end.
You don't have to, but you probably should stop saying they're comparable. A lot of your posts are very smart; I like the way you usually think, but in this case I think maybe you should step back and rethink how you're evaluating these cards. I respect you, but in this case I think you might be missing something big.
Maybe I should be clarifying that their role in smoothing out draws is what is comparable. Not the necessarily the cards themselves.
When it comes to filtering and seeking card quality over card quantity, Jet and Looting give us the same statistical value of finding our target whether you are drawing it or not and the ability to toss or tuck away the card that do not matter.
Read the Bones magnifies this, where Sign in Blood did not. Jet adds an additional layer of flexibility to a filter effect by letting you do direct damage or remove early creatures while sifting through the good and the bad.
When I think about Magma Jet over another removal spell, the filtering is what brings desirability to Jet over something like Ultimate Price or even Hero's Downfall. When I think about Read the Bones over Magma Jet, I am swapping out the removal for 2 cards and a loss of life... Both can get me to those high impact cards, but because RtB does not actually kill something and cost me life, I am really giving up a lot of play room I have when I use Jet. The shock to myself is something I feel needs to be more relevant than digging a few cards. An example would be Shocking myself to seize an opening for Blood Baron or Obzedat, which effectively makes up for the drawback on seize. Or shocking myself on turn 3 to cast an Anger of the Gods against an aggressive board.
2 damage in a slow deck is a lot. 2 damage not to remove a threat and draw cards instead, could just constitute even more seemingly unnecessary damage and I don't think we are quick enough to really come back fast enough off casting this before turn 6 against an aggressive deck like RDW, Gr Aggro or even Naya Midrange.
2 damage in a slow deck is a lot. 2 damage not to remove a threat and draw cards instead, could just constitute even more seemingly unnecessary damage and I don't think we are quick enough to really come back fast enough off casting this before turn 6 against an aggressive deck like RDW, Gr Aggro or even Naya Midrange.
these arguments are exactly why read the bones isn't making the cut for me.
HOwever, dig 4 is pretty potent against control decks... Its worth testing. might even be more potent than underworld connections depending at point in game..
This deck REALLY cares more about card quality than card quantity. Drawing 2 with Sign in Blood was a lot weaker when the 2 cards were low impact cards relative to the match up. This is why Faithless Looting was the primary draw.
I feel the need to point out that while there are reasons for running looting over sign in blood (easier to cast, faster, repeatability and not loss of life) this argument doesn't make sense. Faithless and sign in blood see the same cards but with looting you have to discard 2 of them if SiB was drawing you 2 low impact cards then looting was drawing you the same low impact cards.
That being said I feel like not running read is the bones is a mistake. The life loss can be relevent but it comes down to using your life as a resource. Digging up to 4 cards deep for the one card you need makes it easy to answer threats or hit land drops. Whip Obzedat and helix can get you your life back.
I'll throw my hat in with the not a fan of Magma Jet crowd. The scry 2 is great but there are so many cards that jet does close to nothing against. Smiter, reckoner, fleecemane lion, call of the conclave tokens (selesnya tokens had a representation in block) most of the things killed by jet are one drops or two drops and i want my removal spells to trade up in cost or trade at parity. I dont want to be spending 2 mana to kill a one drop if i can help it.
Chandra has been great in my testing. You need the right board state to play her but if she is unanswered the game just seems so easy to win. I also have yet to lose a game in which I resolved an Elspeth. I really like the more controlling version of this deck as we have access to what is in my opinion the best control finisher in aetherling as well as prime hand disruption in thoughtsieze and RR to fight the blue control decks and buckets of great removal in mortars, dreadbore, chained to the rocks and warleaders helix to fight aggro decks. I keep meaning to post my control list but i always forget. I will post it tomorrow morning.
I played a few games with it on Cockatrice and found it buttery smooth. I think at least one of the Dreadbores should be a Mizzium Mortars and I haven't decided if I like Chandra or Underworld Connections more. I'm convinced now that Obzedat>Blood Baron and Read the Bones is the real deal.
Whip of Erebos plus Obzedat seems gimmicky to me. I guess I will have to do some testing, but relying on getting two cards out to fully closeout a game seems risky. Plus I can play multiple Blood Barons, but only one Obzedat at a time.
What does he say about the creatures choices? why the demon, why so little creatures, and why anger in the main and no magma jet, or thoughseize only in SB
Re: Creatures
Reckoner should be obvious, it's a massive wall against creature decks and always trades up. Obzedat is impossible to kill, presents a /very/ fast clock ( he actually trumps Blood Baron), and helps stabilize against aggro. Demon is The Abyss on a 4 mana 6/6 flier. Without cards like Lingering Souls and Doomed Traveller the best ways of keeping it tapped are gone and it presents real problems for both aggro and control decks. The deck has so much removal that saccing a dude every turn is a real problem for a lot of decks, plus he just kills control decks really fast. The creatures in this deck are all geared towards turning the corner really fast. Like Jund from last season, the deck wants to stabilize and not waste time durdling around.
Re: Anger of the Gods
Anger is card advantage, pure and simple. It clears the way for Desecration Demon and Obzedat, deals with Voice profitably, and is just a generally great way to either come back from behind or lock a game away against an aggro deck.
Re: Magma Jet
Magma Jet is bad right now. A two mana removal spell that doesn't actually kill anything relevant is awful. Scry 2 is fine, but Read the Bones does that and also draws two cards. Maybe someday the format will be friendly to Jet, but with the strength of creatures right now, I doubt it will see play in much of anything.
Re: Thoughtseizes in the board
Gerry mentions that 'Seize is fine main deck but he's hedging against aggro right now. The deck takes a lot of damage from lands and Read the Bones but Read is better in more situations and against more decks.
What does he say about the creatures choices? why the demon, why so little creatures, and why anger in the main and no magma jet, or thoughseize only in SB
Desecration Demon will be the best creature of the format.
ya I really can't say enough about the demon. his draw back really isn't that bad any more. I really don't care for the jerry T list. I doubt if he has played it very much and doubt even more if he ever would play this in the future. his list would get wrecked g1 vs control and thought sieze out of board is not enough to carry the match.
as for magma jet vs read the bones. I fine both of them very useful. however running both has resulted in me dropping TS from the deck entirely replacing it with duress in sb.
my deck keeps bouncing between R/B/w and B/W/r. there are so many cards to test that balancing them together with meaningful testing is difficult. right now all I will say with 100% certainty is that demon is the premier four drop for this deck.
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what i did like a lot were desecration demon, blood baron and the dragon. wow the dragon just steals games. i'm not gonna go the obzedat route. maybe i'll add a few in the sb but i hate the mana base. i think 3-4 magma jet and 2-3 read the bones is where i want to be. just need to find room.
Chained is not for turn 1 removal, it is for T2 removal without shocking yourself or getting in an early scry.
Whip leads to insane amounts of Lifegain and let's me back off of the Aggro plan using Blood Barons, which let's me lower the MB baron count and fit in Obzedat, which is far better than Baron when it is life linking as well as his usual abilities.
Drawing cards is not as powerful as filtering cards in our deck's situation. This was kind of the issue last season with the deck as well.
This deck REALLY cares more about card quality than card quantity. Drawing 2 with Sign in Blood was a lot weaker when the 2 cards were low impact cards relative to the match up. This is why Faithless Looting was the primary draw.
While Read the Bones achieves both card quality and card quantity, running the card demands that you set disruption cards like Thoughtseize aside, which in turn lowers the quality of spells you are running in the MB and the life loss becomes relevant when you are drawing lower impact cards.
Read the Bones is stupid powerful, but I think when we have access to Magma Jet, I can worry less about the raw card drawing that RtB gives when I get to run powerful cards like Thoughtseize to protect my other high impact cards.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
It also gives you reach in it's ability to reanimate things.
4 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
3 Desecration Demon
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
2 Sin Collector
Sorceries:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Dreadbore
2 Rakdos's Return
Instants:
3 Magma Jet
3 Warleader's Helix
2 Doom Blade
3 Chained to the Rocks
Planeswalkers:
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands:
2 Mutavault
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
3 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Dreadbore
2 Duress
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Wear/Tear
1 Pithing Needle
3 Slaughter Games
2 Read the Bones
I haven't done extensive testing with the deck yet, but I don't think it will have any glaring mana issues. Most of the cards in my deck have already been discussed to death so I won't go into any details. The one standout thing would be running 3 Slaughter Games in the side. I think control will give us some problems now that counterspells can be utilized to their fullest and Slaughter Games is the only "can't be countered" our deck can run and I believe that it will be invaluable in hitting Aetherling before they can even play it. Pithing Needle can be removed and Aetherling is just to damn annoying to play around.
Elsepth is in for testing against other Midrange strategies. I do think that Sin Collector being mainboard isn't a horrible thing against aggro as it blocks a swing and it can let us view their hand.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
The mutavaults seem awful with boros reckoner in your deck, how do you intend to cast them turn 3 with that swamp and the 2 colorless lands?
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Thoughtseize
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
4 Desecration Demon
1 Dreadbore
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Mizzium Mortars
4 Lifebane Zombie
3 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
2 Lightning Strike
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Swamp
4 Boros Reckoner
1 Ultimate Price
2 Doom Blade
2 Shock
2 Underworld Connections
1 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Read the Bones
Close to what I am running main board!
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Desecration Demon
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
Spells:22
2 Chained to the Rocks
3 Thoughtseize
2 Doom Blade
2 Dreadbore
3 Magma Jet
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Rakdos Keyrune
3 Warleader's Helix
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Swamp
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Duress
2 Wear // Tear
2 Glare of Heresy
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Underworld Connections
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Underworld Cerberus
Err are so many interesting cards to play. I think I want to cut Cerberus for obzedat but unsure. I also want a singleton pithing needle.
This is simply not true. Faithless Looting and Magma Jet are two completely different card. One filters and lets you get rid of chaff in your hand (similar to brainstorm /w fetchlands)..and it costs one mana...and it lets you do it twice...and you could you could "break" the card disadvantage by discarding Lingering Souls/Unburial Rites, the other simply gives you a bit of quality (sometimes) and information. I'm done arguing this. I guess we will have to disagree. I'll sulk in my corner with my list and try to stop being a pedantic ass about this.
i do agree that they are totally different cards, but magma jet is better. it isn't card disadvantage and in this format we don't have access to that type of recursion via flashback anyway.
i think read the bones is very powerful. draw 2 is a big deal, i just feel with shock lands, thoughtseize and just a slow deck in general, the deck really can't find the life lenience to spend on draw.
Just swung for 18 (Cerberus + Aurelia) opponent was shocked.
Two cards with the same underlying functionality of sifting through the good and bad. Pitching Lingering Souls? That strategy has not been done since... the first quarter of 2013...
The purpose of looting since then, has been so you can see relevant cards and toss what is not relevant. Magma Jet does the exact same thing without ever putting it into your hand. Without Flashback for Rites, drawing the card is actually not all that relevant, so long as you scryp bad cards away and leave relevant ones on top. The job they perform is the same, with the bonus of blasting off dorks early.
Their roles are very comparable, maybe not when you are looking back at archaic lists that run Lingering Souls.
Why you went from 0-60 on this is also, way beyond me. You act like this is some heated debate...
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Spike Jester
3 Sin Collector
3 Lifebane Zombie
1 Nighthowler
3 Desecration Demon
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Legendary (5)
1 Tymaret, The Murder King
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Aurelia, The Warleader
Instants (5)
1 Doom Blade
1 Devour Flesh
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Warleader's Helix
4 Thoughtseize
1 Dreadbore
1 Mizzium Mortars
Lands (24)
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Godless Shrine
4 Blood Crypt
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Triumph
2 Mountain
2 Plains
6 Swamp
4 Duress
4 Shock
3 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Rakdos's Return
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Assemble the Legion
I'd say he went from 0-60 because your argument makes very little sense, and it's frustrating to read it. There's a universe of distance between a looting spell in a format with lots of graveyard-relevant cards, and a narrow removal spell that manipulates topdecks. Yes, both of them filter, and they're both red--but that's where all the similarities end.
You don't have to, but you probably should stop saying they're comparable. A lot of your posts are very smart; I like the way you usually think, but in this case I think maybe you should step back and rethink how you're evaluating these cards. I respect you, but in this case I think you might be missing something big.
In the past standard, i never felt as faithless looting was worth it. it was card disadvantage and unless you had unburial rites, or lignering souls, you weren't getting the value out of it.
Magma jet is the effect we really wanted. 2 damage to the dome or to early creatures while at the same time flitering and smoothign out our draws.
The real question that needs to be answered is whether or not we need a source of card advantage to stay competitive vs control decks. That means in what capacity should we be playing read the bones, underworld connections and chandra?
I've faced tough games where my opponent would just get ahead behind the card advantage by chandra's +0 in the mirror. In those slower matchups, we need somethign to match that imo.
Maybe I should be clarifying that their role in smoothing out draws is what is comparable. Not the necessarily the cards themselves.
When it comes to filtering and seeking card quality over card quantity, Jet and Looting give us the same statistical value of finding our target whether you are drawing it or not and the ability to toss or tuck away the card that do not matter.
Read the Bones magnifies this, where Sign in Blood did not. Jet adds an additional layer of flexibility to a filter effect by letting you do direct damage or remove early creatures while sifting through the good and the bad.
When I think about Magma Jet over another removal spell, the filtering is what brings desirability to Jet over something like Ultimate Price or even Hero's Downfall. When I think about Read the Bones over Magma Jet, I am swapping out the removal for 2 cards and a loss of life... Both can get me to those high impact cards, but because RtB does not actually kill something and cost me life, I am really giving up a lot of play room I have when I use Jet. The shock to myself is something I feel needs to be more relevant than digging a few cards. An example would be Shocking myself to seize an opening for Blood Baron or Obzedat, which effectively makes up for the drawback on seize. Or shocking myself on turn 3 to cast an Anger of the Gods against an aggressive board.
2 damage in a slow deck is a lot. 2 damage not to remove a threat and draw cards instead, could just constitute even more seemingly unnecessary damage and I don't think we are quick enough to really come back fast enough off casting this before turn 6 against an aggressive deck like RDW, Gr Aggro or even Naya Midrange.
these arguments are exactly why read the bones isn't making the cut for me.
HOwever, dig 4 is pretty potent against control decks... Its worth testing. might even be more potent than underworld connections depending at point in game..
I feel the need to point out that while there are reasons for running looting over sign in blood (easier to cast, faster, repeatability and not loss of life) this argument doesn't make sense. Faithless and sign in blood see the same cards but with looting you have to discard 2 of them if SiB was drawing you 2 low impact cards then looting was drawing you the same low impact cards.
That being said I feel like not running read is the bones is a mistake. The life loss can be relevent but it comes down to using your life as a resource. Digging up to 4 cards deep for the one card you need makes it easy to answer threats or hit land drops. Whip Obzedat and helix can get you your life back.
I'll throw my hat in with the not a fan of Magma Jet crowd. The scry 2 is great but there are so many cards that jet does close to nothing against. Smiter, reckoner, fleecemane lion, call of the conclave tokens (selesnya tokens had a representation in block) most of the things killed by jet are one drops or two drops and i want my removal spells to trade up in cost or trade at parity. I dont want to be spending 2 mana to kill a one drop if i can help it.
Chandra has been great in my testing. You need the right board state to play her but if she is unanswered the game just seems so easy to win. I also have yet to lose a game in which I resolved an Elspeth. I really like the more controlling version of this deck as we have access to what is in my opinion the best control finisher in aetherling as well as prime hand disruption in thoughtsieze and RR to fight the blue control decks and buckets of great removal in mortars, dreadbore, chained to the rocks and warleaders helix to fight aggro decks. I keep meaning to post my control list but i always forget. I will post it tomorrow morning.
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Desecration Demon
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council
Planeswalkers: (1)
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Lands: (26)
4 Mountain
3 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
2 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Silence
2 Rakdos Keyrune
3 Chained to the Rocks
3 Warleader's Helix
1 Whip of Erebos
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Dreadbore
2 Rakdos's Return
4 Read the Bones
2 Underworld Connections
3 Shock
1 Wear
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Glare of Heresy
4 Thoughtseize
I played a few games with it on Cockatrice and found it buttery smooth. I think at least one of the Dreadbores should be a Mizzium Mortars and I haven't decided if I like Chandra or Underworld Connections more. I'm convinced now that Obzedat>Blood Baron and Read the Bones is the real deal.
Both cards are good on their own, so it's fine.
Re: Creatures
Reckoner should be obvious, it's a massive wall against creature decks and always trades up. Obzedat is impossible to kill, presents a /very/ fast clock ( he actually trumps Blood Baron), and helps stabilize against aggro. Demon is The Abyss on a 4 mana 6/6 flier. Without cards like Lingering Souls and Doomed Traveller the best ways of keeping it tapped are gone and it presents real problems for both aggro and control decks. The deck has so much removal that saccing a dude every turn is a real problem for a lot of decks, plus he just kills control decks really fast. The creatures in this deck are all geared towards turning the corner really fast. Like Jund from last season, the deck wants to stabilize and not waste time durdling around.
Re: Anger of the Gods
Anger is card advantage, pure and simple. It clears the way for Desecration Demon and Obzedat, deals with Voice profitably, and is just a generally great way to either come back from behind or lock a game away against an aggro deck.
Re: Magma Jet
Magma Jet is bad right now. A two mana removal spell that doesn't actually kill anything relevant is awful. Scry 2 is fine, but Read the Bones does that and also draws two cards. Maybe someday the format will be friendly to Jet, but with the strength of creatures right now, I doubt it will see play in much of anything.
Re: Thoughtseizes in the board
Gerry mentions that 'Seize is fine main deck but he's hedging against aggro right now. The deck takes a lot of damage from lands and Read the Bones but Read is better in more situations and against more decks.
Desecration Demon will be the best creature of the format.
as for magma jet vs read the bones. I fine both of them very useful. however running both has resulted in me dropping TS from the deck entirely replacing it with duress in sb.
my deck keeps bouncing between R/B/w and B/W/r. there are so many cards to test that balancing them together with meaningful testing is difficult. right now all I will say with 100% certainty is that demon is the premier four drop for this deck.
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