I am removing the OP. If a Mod feels so inclined to archive this, that would be sweet. If not, I do not intend on showcasing anymore of my work here. I figure it would just be best for others to make their own thread to circle-jerk in.
I am too pleased with Chandra, Pyromaster to exclude her fom the list. I am running the same front 60 as khamal but have dropped platemail and a single rakdos return for 2 chandra.
What do you guys think of Alms Beast as a fatty blocker and potential game ended? 6/6 is really tough for people to deal with and the lifelink doesn't matter once you are in control of the game. Seems solid to me.
while alms beast is a solid body. the creature base for this deck is extremely tight and very reliant on evasion which makes bbv almost strictly better at every turn.
What do you guys think of Alms Beast as a fatty blocker and potential game ended? 6/6 is really tough for people to deal with and the lifelink doesn't matter once you are in control of the game. Seems solid to me.
If you're going to run alms beast I'd say go ahead and run desecration demon, although I don't really like either. But in a deck with so much removal desecration demon is much more likely to actually attack. Granted I think you'd rather have a 2-1 creature more so than just a fatty.
Chandra was a card I played in the INN-RTR Standard and she did not make the cut over into my new list.
She was good in the pre-rotation lists, but as a 1 of and she really started to just weaken shortly after her brief success.
However, I have not done a whole lot of testing with her in terms of rotation as I am not finding a whole lot of space for her at this time. She is on my to test list though.
My experience with Chandra in the control and midrange matches has ensured me wins even when we were capable of running looting as our CA engine. Her board presence makes here also extremely potent against more agressive decks as well often ignoring the 0 ability entirely to put extra pressure on their creature base.
Meanwhile I have only ever held on to rakdos return against control and only if ive already landed a sin collector. while the damage aspect is great and certainly useful in sealing an already controlled boardstate I feel confidant in its inclusion as a one of just like arurelia.
I have not had any success withe plate mail in any form.
Great work on the initial write-up Kamahl. Looks fancy
First serious round of playtesting last night with my group, definitely was productive and eye opening. I had to adjust my mana base as the night went on, I was running too many spells with BB which forced me into Rakdos Guildgate. It wasn't working. I reworked it with less black and it's much smoother. A few notes from my testing on specific cards:
Magma Jet - I love this card. It is an amazing replacement for Faithless Looting and works wonders for the deck.
Anger of the Gods - This will be a format defining staple I believe. It really kept the R/G decks I played against in check. Also deals with tokens, super powerful. 3 MB/1 SB seems to be the right number for my list.
The rest of my removal is now 2x Chained, 2x Dreadbore, 2x Helix. This will change a bit I'm sure as the meta evolves.
Desecration Demon - I was a big proponent of Demon in the past, but gettting BB reliably on turn 4 was a big issue. He was also not the best reanimation target for Whip. I am exploring other options including Alms Beast and Ember Swallower. Alms Beast has shown promise in limited testing... it does what I need against agro and is a threat to control. I don't like playing lists without a 4-drop so I will continue to explore options.
Stormbreath Dragon - The shining star of testing yesterday. In a format without Lingering Souls, this guy is a monster. I progressively moved from 2, to 3, to finally 4 copies throughout my session. He is the best late game top deck, and also the most aggressive creature to cast on curve. Hitting his monstrous trigger was easier than I anticipated and is a fantastic mana sink and game ender. He is also a much needed flyer for lists without Desecration Demon.
Whip of Erebos & Obzedat, Ghost Council - I played a lot of rounds with 2x of each, but in the end it was just too cute and not fast enough. I still like this interaction as a great alternate win condition, but 1 of each is all that made the cut.
Read the Bones - I removed Chandra from my list to play this card and I have been really, really impressed so far. This digs deeper, faster and at 2B is something I always have mana to cast. Quite a few times on turn 3 I had to use this to dig for either a Red mana source or an Anger of the Gods and it worked wonders. Chandra is watching from the sidelines at the moment.
Thoughtseize - Very obviously a powerful card, but I had to cut back to 3 copies in order to realistically support running 2x Read the Bones. I was just taking too much damage in the early part of the game otherwise. 4th copy is still in the SB for slower matchups.
With so much scry in the deck, I have reliably been running at 24 lands without issues. I started with 25, but without Faithless Looting, I really felt flooding was a problem.
I haven't worked on SB much, still feels too early. 3x Sin Collector seems great to sub in for Anger. Wear // Tear is in there somewhere. Probably my 4th copy of both Anger and Thoughtseize. The rest is still somewhat flexible.
I truly believe its going to be incredibly hard to pull off a 3 colour deck in upcoming standard.
Especially one with such an overzealous manarequirement on most cards.
With monored being a definitive thing, and G/W + WW being agro archetypes too, the tempoloss you get from at least getting all your lands tapped into play, PLUS the fact that you will not always hit double red, or god forbid double black + double white on the fifth turn makes me doubt the validity.
The cardchoices and powerlevel of the deck are non debatable, I just really fear any consistency a triple colour deck will have upcoming Theros.
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Give credit, where credit is due. Give irony and sarcasm, when ignorance and stupidity is found. The whip is kept for special occasions
The Internet was a revelation to me, I never imagined there are so many idiots on this planet.
Chandra was a card I played in the INN-RTR Standard and she did not make the cut over into my new list.
She was good in the pre-rotation lists, but as a 1 of and she really started to just weaken shortly after her brief success.
However, I have not done a whole lot of testing with her in terms of rotation as I am not finding a whole lot of space for her at this time. She is on my to test list though.
Dude, Chandra is the bees-knees. She's even made her way into Eternal formats as well.
I truly believe its going to be incredibly hard to pull off a 3 colour deck in upcoming standard.
Especially one with such an overzealous manarequirement on most cards.
With monored being a definitive thing, and G/W + WW being agro archetypes too, the tempoloss you get from at least getting all your lands tapped into play, PLUS the fact that you will not always hit double red, or god forbid double black + double white on the fifth turn makes me doubt the validity.
The cardchoices and powerlevel of the deck are non debatable, I just really fear any consistency a triple colour deck will have upcoming Theros.
This was my fear as well coming into the format. I think three color decks will be limited to certain color combinations. Running Red for Magma Jet, and the scry lands has let me hit my early color requirements without too much hassle.
You also can't play "on curve" like you could with buddy lands, so 1-for-1 removal needs to be moved into something like a sweeper against agro. Anger of the Gods and Supreme Verdict seem like the likely candidates. We also have some very powerful cards at 1CMC like Thoughtseize and Chained to the Rocks which is allowing us to play tapped lands early and still deal with threats effectively.
You may also see decks run cards like Chromatic Lantern.
The mana being an issue is far from a complete reality.
Most spells cost 1 of any given color. The exceptions being Boros Reckoner, Stormbreath Dragon, Obzedat, Ghost Council, and Aurelia, the Warleader.
You also compensate for lands entering tapped by including cheaper removal spells and using a probability table to structure your curve.
15 W
13 B
14 R
and only 28% of your mana base coming into play tapped, you can easily curve your deck to compensate for things like ETBT lands or ensuring RR by turn 5.
Have people really forgotten how to construct 3 color mana bases?
Was she not cutting it during your initial testing or is she simply a bad fit in general? She does attack from a interesting angle...
Also thoughts on Spear of Heliod in the Plate Mail spot? It goes a long way in making your creatures more threatening and plays especially well with Assemble the Legion and said Elsbeth should anyone choose to run them.
I'm on board with the mana though, not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
Have people really forgotten how to construct 3 color mana bases?
Gasp, you mean we have to actually put in effort to do that nonsense!? Heresy!
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She will get more testing in. If you remember the list I posted in the SNCD, she was in it. The list lost... a lot of games, so I went back to the basics.
I would run Elspeth before I ever run Assemble the Legion.
Spear is repeatable removal, however I do not like having to leave mana up to use it. We are generally tapping out. Not only am I leaving mana up, but I am also taking a hit as well. Seems bad.
Have people really forgotten how to construct 3 color mana bases?
With it not being "run all your fetches and all your checks to get WUBRG on turn 3" format, some people do seem to have forgotten the finer points of it. Not running double colored mana costs alleviates a lot of the strain people see happening. Plus we're running like 15-20 two-color lands, and we're not living and dying by our turn 1 and turn 2 plays.
If this, or another W/R deck gets popular Peak Eruption is a must. It's an answer to Chained to the Rocks and then lightning bolts them to the face.
That said, you can't point the damage at creatures so it's not as good as it could be.
It's a card to consider, but in all honesty I'd rather just hit it with the enchantment removal I already know I'm going to play, rather than spend sideboard slots for a card that can only be played in a very narrow subset of decks.
In any case, here's my initial build, though I'll be running it through the gauntlet this coming week.
If anyone has questions about the deck or the card choices, feel free to ask. I'll be putting this thing through its paces in short order though. GPT at my shop the week after the launch party, states the week after that, GP louisville the following week, and capping it off with the SCG Open in Indy on the 26th.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the mana base may not be as smooth as it was before Theros, but it is far more powerful when it comes to powering the deck as it is. Scrying off your land is pretty relevant when you run so few ways to actually draw cards. It allows you for fixing and finding outs, and combined with cheaper spells, it keeps things flowing as you progress the match.
I Really like the idea of packing Mizzium Mortars in the MB and Anger of the Gods in the SB.
It gives you cheap removal with Mortars while still giving you a sweeper if you absolutely need it, and bringing in Anger of the Gods when you need faster sweeps.
Anger of the Gods in the MB is good, but it feels a lot more like a SB card as it is really only there for a few matches.
Why Assemble the Legion over Elspeth? As I said earlier, I think she is just better than Assemble, simply because of her card type going into a format with a focus on enchantments.
I'm still on the fence about anything more than 2 read the bones.
With theros our filtering is extremely efficient with 4 jets and 6 scrylands which already replaces the loss of a 4of in faithless looting. At 3 CMC I am already finding it tight enough to squeeze Out a threat in reckoner or drop a scryland into a mortar/jet/doomblade/bore and turn 4/5 Im aiming to shock myself to push out a helix or dragon/bbv. There have not been any matches where I have ever needed that third bones to dig into a finisher which I think is the primary point of a 4 deep scry engine in this sort of deck.
The curve is extremely tight but also very efficient. I have found that I almost take on a tempo playstyle with this deck by removing blockers almost without regard to ensure my reckoner bbv and dragons are connecting with face. I am rarely sitting on removal and drawing into a bones with a threat in hand on turn 5 or 6 is almost always disappointing especially when I already have one in the grave I would rather draw into a Rakdos return. It just means I have a dead card for a turn because ill always cast the threat.
I don't know where I'm going with this but that's my experience thus far.
I think elspeth vs assemble the legions depends on a couple of factors. The main one's being how popular the removal is for one over the other. For instance if hero's downfall becomes more popular, assemble the legions gets much better than elspeth. Whereas if destroy enchantment effects become popular, elspeth gains a bigger leg up.
One thing I will note, assemble the legions doesn't impact the board as fast as elspeth, or have an optional board sweep.
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Big thanks to DarkNightCavalier from heroes of the planes studios for the sig!
Why Assemble the Legion over Elspeth? As I said earlier, I think she is just better than Assemble, simply because of her card type going into a format with a focus on enchantments.
I think elspeth vs assemble the legions depends on a couple of factors. The main one's being how popular the removal is for one over the other. For instance if hero's downfall becomes more popular, assemble the legions gets much better than elspeth. Whereas if destroy enchantment effects become popular, elspeth gains a bigger leg up.
One thing I will note, assemble the legions doesn't impact the board as fast as elspeth, or have an optional board sweep.
Nova Joe more or less has it - it's a metagame call, and with everyone and their brother hyping the **** out of hero's demise locally, assemble seems like the better play.
Those slots could become elspeth should that trend reverse, of course.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Honestly I'm just excited to use Chained to the Rocks. Looks like a great deck.
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Sin Collector
1 Desecration Demon
Spells (25):
4 Magma Jet
3 Chained to the Rocks
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Read the Bones
3 Warleader's Helix
3 Thoughtseize
2 Doom Blade
2 Dreadbore
2 Rakdos's Return
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Blood Crypt
3 Godless Shrine
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triupmh
1 Unknown Shores
1 Mutavault
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Plains
Draft My Cube!
No Boros Reckoner is a huge mistake. I do Like a Chandra or 2 in the list though.
Melira Pod - Modern
If you're going to run alms beast I'd say go ahead and run desecration demon, although I don't really like either. But in a deck with so much removal desecration demon is much more likely to actually attack. Granted I think you'd rather have a 2-1 creature more so than just a fatty.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9733836#post9733836
She was good in the pre-rotation lists, but as a 1 of and she really started to just weaken shortly after her brief success.
However, I have not done a whole lot of testing with her in terms of rotation as I am not finding a whole lot of space for her at this time. She is on my to test list though.
Meanwhile I have only ever held on to rakdos return against control and only if ive already landed a sin collector. while the damage aspect is great and certainly useful in sealing an already controlled boardstate I feel confidant in its inclusion as a one of just like arurelia.
I have not had any success withe plate mail in any form.
First serious round of playtesting last night with my group, definitely was productive and eye opening. I had to adjust my mana base as the night went on, I was running too many spells with BB which forced me into Rakdos Guildgate. It wasn't working. I reworked it with less black and it's much smoother. A few notes from my testing on specific cards:
Magma Jet - I love this card. It is an amazing replacement for Faithless Looting and works wonders for the deck.
Anger of the Gods - This will be a format defining staple I believe. It really kept the R/G decks I played against in check. Also deals with tokens, super powerful. 3 MB/1 SB seems to be the right number for my list.
The rest of my removal is now 2x Chained, 2x Dreadbore, 2x Helix. This will change a bit I'm sure as the meta evolves.
Desecration Demon - I was a big proponent of Demon in the past, but gettting BB reliably on turn 4 was a big issue. He was also not the best reanimation target for Whip. I am exploring other options including Alms Beast and Ember Swallower. Alms Beast has shown promise in limited testing... it does what I need against agro and is a threat to control. I don't like playing lists without a 4-drop so I will continue to explore options.
Stormbreath Dragon - The shining star of testing yesterday. In a format without Lingering Souls, this guy is a monster. I progressively moved from 2, to 3, to finally 4 copies throughout my session. He is the best late game top deck, and also the most aggressive creature to cast on curve. Hitting his monstrous trigger was easier than I anticipated and is a fantastic mana sink and game ender. He is also a much needed flyer for lists without Desecration Demon.
Whip of Erebos & Obzedat, Ghost Council - I played a lot of rounds with 2x of each, but in the end it was just too cute and not fast enough. I still like this interaction as a great alternate win condition, but 1 of each is all that made the cut.
Read the Bones - I removed Chandra from my list to play this card and I have been really, really impressed so far. This digs deeper, faster and at 2B is something I always have mana to cast. Quite a few times on turn 3 I had to use this to dig for either a Red mana source or an Anger of the Gods and it worked wonders. Chandra is watching from the sidelines at the moment.
Thoughtseize - Very obviously a powerful card, but I had to cut back to 3 copies in order to realistically support running 2x Read the Bones. I was just taking too much damage in the early part of the game otherwise. 4th copy is still in the SB for slower matchups.
With so much scry in the deck, I have reliably been running at 24 lands without issues. I started with 25, but without Faithless Looting, I really felt flooding was a problem.
4x Blood Crypt
4x Godless Shrine
3x Mountain
1x Rakdos Guildgate
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple of Silence
4x Temple of Triumph
4x Boros Reckoner
3x Alms Beast
4x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
1x Aurelia, the Warleader
Sorcery (12)
3x Anger of the Gods
2x Dreadbore
2x Rakdos's Return
2x Read the Bones
3x Thoughtseize
4x Magma Jet
2x Warleader's Helix
Enchantment (3)
2x Chained to the Rocks
1x Whip of Erebos
I haven't worked on SB much, still feels too early. 3x Sin Collector seems great to sub in for Anger. Wear // Tear is in there somewhere. Probably my 4th copy of both Anger and Thoughtseize. The rest is still somewhat flexible.
Especially one with such an overzealous manarequirement on most cards.
With monored being a definitive thing, and G/W + WW being agro archetypes too, the tempoloss you get from at least getting all your lands tapped into play, PLUS the fact that you will not always hit double red, or god forbid double black + double white on the fifth turn makes me doubt the validity.
The cardchoices and powerlevel of the deck are non debatable, I just really fear any consistency a triple colour deck will have upcoming Theros.
Give irony and sarcasm, when ignorance and stupidity is found.
The whip is kept for special occasions
Dude, Chandra is the bees-knees. She's even made her way into Eternal formats as well.
This was my fear as well coming into the format. I think three color decks will be limited to certain color combinations. Running Red for Magma Jet, and the scry lands has let me hit my early color requirements without too much hassle.
You also can't play "on curve" like you could with buddy lands, so 1-for-1 removal needs to be moved into something like a sweeper against agro. Anger of the Gods and Supreme Verdict seem like the likely candidates. We also have some very powerful cards at 1CMC like Thoughtseize and Chained to the Rocks which is allowing us to play tapped lands early and still deal with threats effectively.
You may also see decks run cards like Chromatic Lantern.
The mana being an issue is far from a complete reality.
Most spells cost 1 of any given color. The exceptions being Boros Reckoner, Stormbreath Dragon, Obzedat, Ghost Council, and Aurelia, the Warleader.
You also compensate for lands entering tapped by including cheaper removal spells and using a probability table to structure your curve.
15 W
13 B
14 R
and only 28% of your mana base coming into play tapped, you can easily curve your deck to compensate for things like ETBT lands or ensuring RR by turn 5.
Have people really forgotten how to construct 3 color mana bases?
Was she not cutting it during your initial testing or is she simply a bad fit in general? She does attack from a interesting angle...
Also thoughts on Spear of Heliod in the Plate Mail spot? It goes a long way in making your creatures more threatening and plays especially well with Assemble the Legion and said Elsbeth should anyone choose to run them.
I'm on board with the mana though, not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
Gasp, you mean we have to actually put in effort to do that nonsense!? Heresy!
I would run Elspeth before I ever run Assemble the Legion.
Spear is repeatable removal, however I do not like having to leave mana up to use it. We are generally tapping out. Not only am I leaving mana up, but I am also taking a hit as well. Seems bad.
That said, you can't point the damage at creatures so it's not as good as it could be.
With it not being "run all your fetches and all your checks to get WUBRG on turn 3" format, some people do seem to have forgotten the finer points of it. Not running double colored mana costs alleviates a lot of the strain people see happening. Plus we're running like 15-20 two-color lands, and we're not living and dying by our turn 1 and turn 2 plays.
It's a card to consider, but in all honesty I'd rather just hit it with the enchantment removal I already know I'm going to play, rather than spend sideboard slots for a card that can only be played in a very narrow subset of decks.
In any case, here's my initial build, though I'll be running it through the gauntlet this coming week.
4 Godless Shrine
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Blood Crypt
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
1 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Plains
Creatures (14)
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Sin Collector
4 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
3 Thoughtseize
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Magma Jet
3 Warleader's Helix
3 Doom Blade
3 Read the Bones
1 Chandra, Pyromancer
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
2 Assemble the Legion
3 Wear//Tear
3 Slaughter Games
3 Anger of the Gods
If anyone has questions about the deck or the card choices, feel free to ask. I'll be putting this thing through its paces in short order though. GPT at my shop the week after the launch party, states the week after that, GP louisville the following week, and capping it off with the SCG Open in Indy on the 26th.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
I Really like the idea of packing Mizzium Mortars in the MB and Anger of the Gods in the SB.
It gives you cheap removal with Mortars while still giving you a sweeper if you absolutely need it, and bringing in Anger of the Gods when you need faster sweeps.
Anger of the Gods in the MB is good, but it feels a lot more like a SB card as it is really only there for a few matches.
Why Assemble the Legion over Elspeth? As I said earlier, I think she is just better than Assemble, simply because of her card type going into a format with a focus on enchantments.
With theros our filtering is extremely efficient with 4 jets and 6 scrylands which already replaces the loss of a 4of in faithless looting. At 3 CMC I am already finding it tight enough to squeeze Out a threat in reckoner or drop a scryland into a mortar/jet/doomblade/bore and turn 4/5 Im aiming to shock myself to push out a helix or dragon/bbv. There have not been any matches where I have ever needed that third bones to dig into a finisher which I think is the primary point of a 4 deep scry engine in this sort of deck.
The curve is extremely tight but also very efficient. I have found that I almost take on a tempo playstyle with this deck by removing blockers almost without regard to ensure my reckoner bbv and dragons are connecting with face. I am rarely sitting on removal and drawing into a bones with a threat in hand on turn 5 or 6 is almost always disappointing especially when I already have one in the grave I would rather draw into a Rakdos return. It just means I have a dead card for a turn because ill always cast the threat.
I don't know where I'm going with this but that's my experience thus far.
One thing I will note, assemble the legions doesn't impact the board as fast as elspeth, or have an optional board sweep.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Nova Joe more or less has it - it's a metagame call, and with everyone and their brother hyping the **** out of hero's demise locally, assemble seems like the better play.
Those slots could become elspeth should that trend reverse, of course.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP