Games against control usually go like this: they kill your stuff and draw cards, you kill theirs and draw cards. Then one of the two things happen:
- you have all threats plus occasional dreadbore for their walker, stick obzedat, whip or return and they die
- you draw too much removal, they have answers for everything, play 2 revelations and you die
Maindeck they are favored. Post SB you are favored, BWR has so much control hate it isn't funny.
Sure, you can take out all removal and put in discard and then you begin to lose against aggro. Weak maindeck matchup against aggro is the worst thing you could have in modern magic.
To care about beating Blood Baron some top deck should play him first more than 1-2 in SB. Why do you care about beating every random card out there? You know what BWR12removal.dek also can't beat? Cerberus or angel of serenity, but no one discusses that.
And it's not like there are no cards to beat Baron if he becomes a thing. You just can switch removal around and have 8 edicts and burn that kill baron plus 4x thoughtseize and 4x lifebane.
Lot of pages arguing things discussed the day we saw Gerry's list.
This deck doesn't fold to control but Gerry's list does. U need hand disruption.
I think thought seise is great in all matchups except white weenie and rdw and in those matchups I still think its pretty good.
We should be willing to expect the mirror and other powerful midrange decks and we want to be able to stop them pro actively. Thought seize is perfect at punishing players for keeping less than optimal or slow hands. It can almost win u a game immediately. In testing I can't count the number of times I've thought seized a mortars or a removal spell in turn 1-2 while seeing jace or Elspeth and having my opponent laugh at me. Only to see them concede a few turns later when they can't answer demon or blood Baron.
And idk about u guys but I've played vs quite a few different archetypes easily running over 8 counter spells main board. Permission is back. Don't write those decks off immediately.
Shock vs jet: I like magma jet and I'm going to just keep faith in the card and drop my 2 shocks from my sb for my 4th anger if the gods and perhaps one more doom blade in the side. Let's see how quick and prominent aggro decks are.
By tool, I don't mean program. It is most certainly reading material, and I am trying to include as much information as I can into it to avoid confusion, broken or unclear points, and affirm understanding. Because some people seem to struggle catching onto some of my points by my own fault of writing statements apparently lacking clarity.
I look forward to whatever it is you are brewing. I don't think there is any lack of clarity in your posts, typically you are on point.
On another note, GerryT list looks nice, I just think I disagree with the disinclusion of BBoV, and Sin Collector.
I'd like to hear what some of everyones best hands are. I know at a certain point there is "That Hand". What has that hand been for you?
I think thought seise is great in all matchups except white weenie and rdw and in those matchups I still think its pretty good.
We should be willing to expect the mirror and other powerful midrange decks and we want to be able to stop them pro actively. Thought seize is perfect at punishing players for keeping less than optimal or slow hands. It can almost win u a game immediately. In testing I can't count the number of times I've thought seized a mortars or a removal spell in turn 1-2 while seeing jace or Elspeth and having my opponent laugh at me. Only to see them concede a few turns later when they can't answer demon or blood Baron.
I typically find myself pulling either Removal, Counter magic, or Domri/Ashiok types. This is why I went with Duress. Do you find you're pulling a creature often?
I've finally come close to finalizing my decklist for theros. I've got a classic in October and a open in Charlotte to prepare for plus three IQ's to prepare for. This decklist will probably be tweaked once the format settles a bit, but so far for what my playstyle calls for I think it hits on almost all points of my game.
Some of the sideboard cards may switch with the mainboard cards before Saturday's tourney, but the list of cards will probably remain the same. It's probably got some clashes with some of the ideas in this thread, but I play better with a strong creature base and board presence so my list looks terrifyingly aggressive but considering that I can play both aggressively when ahead or play a slower game using removal to lead my creatures works either way. I think my control matchup game 1 is probably very weak, but post sideboard I feel the game is more than winnable. I'll begin my testing with this list Thursday at type 2, then another Type 2, plus about 5-6 hours of online testing before taking it to the first big tourney on Saturday.
Elddub: what I pull is matchup and time dependent. If its a planeswalker that I can't deal with early then I'll pull him but I really am looking at removing the earliest threat that will impact the board in a way that will put me behind or that I can't answer.
Those that are claiming Gerry's list is bad against control, have you actually played the deck?
I've played his list for over a week now and I've been winning about 80% of control match-ups.
The early card advantage from Underworld Connections and Read the Bones is huge. They will run out of answers and all it takes is a single Obzedat, demon or Elspeth to win in a few turns.
In game 1s, yes, Gerry's deck is bad. Read the bones and underworld connections are great cards and if they resolve they build great advantage. But permission decks can prevent u from resolving those (resolve connections? Lol) and without thought seize u can't prevent them from resolving their divination s, augury, opportunity, revelations or jaces or opposing Chandra's.... Sure post board that list has some game. Not gonna argue that. My list is similar to Gerry's but I forgo chained to the rocks completely, md thought seize, and find room for things I prefer --- mortars, baron etc
Sure. All it takes is a single creature to win in a few turns. Not sure how often u think a control player is not going to be able to stall this tactic though. Not saying the deck can't be tweaked, but if u thinkmgerrys main board list is good against control, I think u are sorely mistaken.
Those that are claiming Gerry's list is bad against control, have you actually played the deck?
I've played his list for over a week now and I've been winning about 80% of control match-ups.
The early card advantage from Underworld Connections and Read the Bones is huge. They will run out of answers and all it takes is a single Obzedat, demon or Elspeth to win in a few turns.
Incremental card draw is still trumped by a good sized Revelations, or in some cases, even an Inspiration.
I don't have to play Gerry T's list to tell you that bulky ass, slow creatures mean you are playing 1 per turn at best, which means edicts kill them, spot removal kills them, counter catches them and in some cases even a sweeper just undoes them
Control plays a lot of those cards, generally the same number in combination as the number of threats we run if not more than the number of the threats we run, which means if you drop turn 3 Underworld Connections, draw turn 4 and on their turn 4 they instant speed an Inspiration, they are still up 1 card on you. If they Rev it is even worse.
When they can match the same % of their deck to the % that constitutes our deck, it makes it hard to keep pace as they are generally seeing answer as often as you are seeing threats, and when their draw can just out do yours, running draw is almost moot anyways. All it does is save you from falling too far behind.
Pinpoint removal is what gives you the ability to negate their card advantage because it allows you to not only create an opening by lowering the number of playable answers from their hand, but it also drags them down an entire card they have to make up for.
I do not need to play Gerry T's list to know that Control is going to be a rough match for it. I have months and months, and a couple hundred games under my belt to be able to look at it and tell you what is wrong with that list when it comes to a control match.
The problem with SG at this point in time, is that it's targets are not defined. You are kind of just gauging your match and naming cards that can be rough on you, without figuring out if there is another answer to it. Slaughter Games is for naming bullets, not just whatever card can sometimes give you problems.
As I said, Slaughter Games will inevitably make it into my sideboard, but not until the format is established.
I've finally come close to finalizing my decklist for theros. I've got a classic in October and a open in Charlotte to prepare for plus three IQ's to prepare for. This decklist will probably be tweaked once the format settles a bit, but so far for what my playstyle calls for I think it hits on almost all points of my game.
Some of the sideboard cards may switch with the mainboard cards before Saturday's tourney, but the list of cards will probably remain the same. It's probably got some clashes with some of the ideas in this thread, but I play better with a strong creature base and board presence so my list looks terrifyingly aggressive but considering that I can play both aggressively when ahead or play a slower game using removal to lead my creatures works either way. I think my control matchup game 1 is probably very weak, but post sideboard I feel the game is more than winnable. I'll begin my testing with this list Thursday at type 2, then another Type 2, plus about 5-6 hours of online testing before taking it to the first big tourney on Saturday.
Your main board is very close to what I run and I think you have a pretty strong deck. I like your sideboard to an extent but don't agree with some choices. 3 slaughter games seems pretty heavy. Especially it's the curve of your deck. Binging them in adds another 3, four drops. Perhaps drop 1 for a pithing needle or duress?
I am not going to assume I know their bombs like that. I tried that last year and Thragtusk was not even in the guys Bant deck, and I got completely run over by Armada Wurm in the Fall State Championships.
I even made a good friend in that match and I was not the only person to Slaughter Games on the Thragtusk he did not have.
While you can assume you know what bombs people are running, that does not mean that they are going to have them. Armada Wurm in this case was a swap out because he could apply more pressure on people like me playing 4 Color Reanimator with trampling wurms that continued pressure when recast after killing Angel of Serenity.
So I would rather not play the assumption game and just look at my odds without having to do that, but hey if you want to then by all means. I don't feel like there are any incredibly strong individual cards against us that I cannot keep in check via Thoughtseize, which is another reason I have not put too much effort into getting it into my list.
As for RIP, I have ditched the Whip plan in the MB. Whip is everywhere and RIP completely shuts it off and I like that. I could see RIP coming in if Whip is as big as it seems to be.
I totally forgot to ask something. Do you people think, that Rest in Peace is still needed in our sideboards? It was a 2 of in my sideboard and I would have felt better with 3 copies.
I don't think Rest in Peace is really needed anymore...
However; an old card that could be an option if we think Aggro becomes a problem. Blind Obedience?
I would not rule Rest in Peace out at all. I do agree that Wear//Tear is probably a great general answer, but Rest in Peace is good at just shutting down the problem before it is a problem.
Are people just throwing cards in our colors out now? RIP and Blind Obedience seem like strange things to be discussing at this point.
I am known to be primarily a Grixis player, brewing BRW is a bit outside my norm but my list is pretty strong.
As for your comment about Grixis and it couldn't beat GW in a million years, I am dying to hear what in GW is so devastating to Grixis?
If you don't want to post it here, PM me... No seriously, I'm dying to hear this.
One of the big weaknesses from having Developed a Grixis list is dealing with Enchantments, and there's plenty still to answer those types of threats. Not the traditional Destroy answers, but there are options.
It's two separate points, one is that any list with 12 counters isn't grounded in reality at all.
The GW point was that Grixis at it's core is still a one for one removal plan that tries to stay ahead on CA. GW is good against those strategies because all the non-one drops are actually threatening on their own and post-board they can have a wide variety of threats.
This isn't anything new, the block builds weren't great against straight GW and while Grixis gained two removal spells and maybe Augury, GW also gained Fleecemane/Ooze/Primeval Bounty/Elspeth. I was being hyperbolic with the never wins obviously, but GW is favored over Grixis and Anger of the Gods didn't really change that except against the all one-drops build.
RIP still has uses but i dont think we want it. shuts our own graveyard down and id much rather use dreadbore smartly to deal with scavenging ooze. sure voice is still there, but we have anger of the gods.
if certain graveyard strats emerge or if you want to shut down whip obzedat interaction in the mirror, i can see RIP making a strong comeback. i've decided to pass on it for now.
It's two separate points, one is that any list with 12 counters isn't grounded in reality at all.
The GW point was that Grixis at it's core is still a one for one removal plan that tries to stay ahead on CA. GW is good against those strategies because all the non-one drops are actually threatening on their own and post-board they can have a wide variety of threats.
This isn't anything new, the block builds weren't great against straight GW and while Grixis gained two removal spells and maybe Augury, GW also gained Fleecemane/Ooze/Primeval Bounty/Elspeth. I was being hyperbolic with the never wins obviously, but GW is favored over Grixis and Anger of the Gods didn't really change that except against the all one-drops build.
12 counterspells isn't necessarily bad. Especially if midrange is dominating the format. The only decks you WOULND'T want 12 counterspells against is probably WW aggro or mono red.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Big thanks to DarkNightCavalier from heroes of the planes studios for the sig!
One thing I will bring up, Underworld Cerberus has tested very well in this deck, returning all of your guys that may have been countered or otherwise destroyed to your hand is huge. However, RIP will completely shut that interaction down. Reanimator post rotation does not even really look like a thing, I mean Escape form the Underworld, Obzedat's Aid, and Whip of Erebos are all it has for its engine. Not to mention reanimator decks will be discouraged by the use of Ooze.
One thing I will bring up, Underworld Cerberus has tested very well in this deck, returning all of your guys that may have been countered or otherwise destroyed to your hand is huge. However, RIP will completely **** that interaction down. Reanimator post rotation does not even really look like a thing, I mean Escape form the Underworld, Obzedat's Aid, and Whip of Erebos are all it has for its engine. Not to mention reanimator decks will be discouraged by the use of Ooze.
underworld cerberus seems pretty good against reanimator and permission control, but terrible against aggro decks and the like. If they manage to kill your cerberus, then its very likely that they will capitalize on it's "morbid" effect much moreso than you will.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Big thanks to DarkNightCavalier from heroes of the planes studios for the sig!
FML. I cut it down to 6k, took it into a bit of revision and now I am back up to 8k and have all this crap I still want to include...
I seriously hope that people will read this entire thing.
Don't get depressed if people still slam you, some people don't like being told they are wrong or don't understand that other people can have opinions too.
FML. I cut it down to 6k, took it into a bit of revision and now I am back up to 8k and have all this crap I still want to include...
I seriously hope that people will read this entire thing.
I'm happy to read it as soon as you release it
I've been following this thread for the last few days after testing the deck and I love the discussion. I'd love to run Demon with Reckoner, but I think it's just a little too hard on the mana to do so. As others have discussed, I'm trying to find how many RtB I want and whether Magma Jet makes the cut. Hopefully the continued discussion here and more testing will leave me with a list I'm very confidant in by the weekend.
- you have all threats plus occasional dreadbore for their walker, stick obzedat, whip or return and they die
- you draw too much removal, they have answers for everything, play 2 revelations and you die
Maindeck they are favored. Post SB you are favored, BWR has so much control hate it isn't funny.
Sure, you can take out all removal and put in discard and then you begin to lose against aggro. Weak maindeck matchup against aggro is the worst thing you could have in modern magic.
To care about beating Blood Baron some top deck should play him first more than 1-2 in SB. Why do you care about beating every random card out there? You know what BWR12removal.dek also can't beat? Cerberus or angel of serenity, but no one discusses that.
And it's not like there are no cards to beat Baron if he becomes a thing. You just can switch removal around and have 8 edicts and burn that kill baron plus 4x thoughtseize and 4x lifebane.
This deck doesn't fold to control but Gerry's list does. U need hand disruption.
I think thought seise is great in all matchups except white weenie and rdw and in those matchups I still think its pretty good.
We should be willing to expect the mirror and other powerful midrange decks and we want to be able to stop them pro actively. Thought seize is perfect at punishing players for keeping less than optimal or slow hands. It can almost win u a game immediately. In testing I can't count the number of times I've thought seized a mortars or a removal spell in turn 1-2 while seeing jace or Elspeth and having my opponent laugh at me. Only to see them concede a few turns later when they can't answer demon or blood Baron.
And idk about u guys but I've played vs quite a few different archetypes easily running over 8 counter spells main board. Permission is back. Don't write those decks off immediately.
Shock vs jet: I like magma jet and I'm going to just keep faith in the card and drop my 2 shocks from my sb for my 4th anger if the gods and perhaps one more doom blade in the side. Let's see how quick and prominent aggro decks are.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
I look forward to whatever it is you are brewing. I don't think there is any lack of clarity in your posts, typically you are on point.
On another note, GerryT list looks nice, I just think I disagree with the disinclusion of BBoV, and Sin Collector.
I'd like to hear what some of everyones best hands are. I know at a certain point there is "That Hand". What has that hand been for you?
Blood Crypt
Sacred Foundry
Mountain
Legion's Initiative/Dreadbore
Boros Reckoner
Anger of the Gods
Read the Bones
I typically find myself pulling either Removal, Counter magic, or Domri/Ashiok types. This is why I went with Duress. Do you find you're pulling a creature often?
4 Desecration Demon
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
3 Thoughtseize
3 Magma Jet
4 Dreadbore
2 Read the Bones
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Warleader's Helix
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Whip of Erebos
4 Blood Crypt
4 Sacred Foundary
4 Godless Shrine
4 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
4 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Sin Collector
1 Thoughtseize
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Wear//Tear
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Assemble the Legion
Some of the sideboard cards may switch with the mainboard cards before Saturday's tourney, but the list of cards will probably remain the same. It's probably got some clashes with some of the ideas in this thread, but I play better with a strong creature base and board presence so my list looks terrifyingly aggressive but considering that I can play both aggressively when ahead or play a slower game using removal to lead my creatures works either way. I think my control matchup game 1 is probably very weak, but post sideboard I feel the game is more than winnable. I'll begin my testing with this list Thursday at type 2, then another Type 2, plus about 5-6 hours of online testing before taking it to the first big tourney on Saturday.
In game 1s, yes, Gerry's deck is bad. Read the bones and underworld connections are great cards and if they resolve they build great advantage. But permission decks can prevent u from resolving those (resolve connections? Lol) and without thought seize u can't prevent them from resolving their divination s, augury, opportunity, revelations or jaces or opposing Chandra's.... Sure post board that list has some game. Not gonna argue that. My list is similar to Gerry's but I forgo chained to the rocks completely, md thought seize, and find room for things I prefer --- mortars, baron etc
Sure. All it takes is a single creature to win in a few turns. Not sure how often u think a control player is not going to be able to stall this tactic though. Not saying the deck can't be tweaked, but if u thinkmgerrys main board list is good against control, I think u are sorely mistaken.
Incremental card draw is still trumped by a good sized Revelations, or in some cases, even an Inspiration.
I don't have to play Gerry T's list to tell you that bulky ass, slow creatures mean you are playing 1 per turn at best, which means edicts kill them, spot removal kills them, counter catches them and in some cases even a sweeper just undoes them
Control plays a lot of those cards, generally the same number in combination as the number of threats we run if not more than the number of the threats we run, which means if you drop turn 3 Underworld Connections, draw turn 4 and on their turn 4 they instant speed an Inspiration, they are still up 1 card on you. If they Rev it is even worse.
When they can match the same % of their deck to the % that constitutes our deck, it makes it hard to keep pace as they are generally seeing answer as often as you are seeing threats, and when their draw can just out do yours, running draw is almost moot anyways. All it does is save you from falling too far behind.
Pinpoint removal is what gives you the ability to negate their card advantage because it allows you to not only create an opening by lowering the number of playable answers from their hand, but it also drags them down an entire card they have to make up for.
I do not need to play Gerry T's list to know that Control is going to be a rough match for it. I have months and months, and a couple hundred games under my belt to be able to look at it and tell you what is wrong with that list when it comes to a control match.
Nobody is hating on it.
The problem with SG at this point in time, is that it's targets are not defined. You are kind of just gauging your match and naming cards that can be rough on you, without figuring out if there is another answer to it. Slaughter Games is for naming bullets, not just whatever card can sometimes give you problems.
As I said, Slaughter Games will inevitably make it into my sideboard, but not until the format is established.
Your main board is very close to what I run and I think you have a pretty strong deck. I like your sideboard to an extent but don't agree with some choices. 3 slaughter games seems pretty heavy. Especially it's the curve of your deck. Binging them in adds another 3, four drops. Perhaps drop 1 for a pithing needle or duress?
I even made a good friend in that match and I was not the only person to Slaughter Games on the Thragtusk he did not have.
While you can assume you know what bombs people are running, that does not mean that they are going to have them. Armada Wurm in this case was a swap out because he could apply more pressure on people like me playing 4 Color Reanimator with trampling wurms that continued pressure when recast after killing Angel of Serenity.
So I would rather not play the assumption game and just look at my odds without having to do that, but hey if you want to then by all means. I don't feel like there are any incredibly strong individual cards against us that I cannot keep in check via Thoughtseize, which is another reason I have not put too much effort into getting it into my list.
As for RIP, I have ditched the Whip plan in the MB. Whip is everywhere and RIP completely shuts it off and I like that. I could see RIP coming in if Whip is as big as it seems to be.
I don't think Rest in Peace is really needed anymore...
However; an old card that could be an option if we think Aggro becomes a problem. Blind Obedience?
Whip is a card
Grisly Salvage shenanigans still happen
I would not rule Rest in Peace out at all. I do agree that Wear//Tear is probably a great general answer, but Rest in Peace is good at just shutting down the problem before it is a problem.
Are people just throwing cards in our colors out now? RIP and Blind Obedience seem like strange things to be discussing at this point.
It's two separate points, one is that any list with 12 counters isn't grounded in reality at all.
The GW point was that Grixis at it's core is still a one for one removal plan that tries to stay ahead on CA. GW is good against those strategies because all the non-one drops are actually threatening on their own and post-board they can have a wide variety of threats.
This isn't anything new, the block builds weren't great against straight GW and while Grixis gained two removal spells and maybe Augury, GW also gained Fleecemane/Ooze/Primeval Bounty/Elspeth. I was being hyperbolic with the never wins obviously, but GW is favored over Grixis and Anger of the Gods didn't really change that except against the all one-drops build.
Understand, since the posting of Gerry's Video, we're going to have a lot of new peeps coming here to these forums.
The guy asked about RIP, we/you answered.
While thinking about RIP, Blind Obedience did cross my mind.
Only because a lot were concerned with Aggro, just tossed it out there as it was a viable option pre-rotation.
No harm done...
if certain graveyard strats emerge or if you want to shut down whip obzedat interaction in the mirror, i can see RIP making a strong comeback. i've decided to pass on it for now.
12 counterspells isn't necessarily bad. Especially if midrange is dominating the format. The only decks you WOULND'T want 12 counterspells against is probably WW aggro or mono red.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
EDIT: why are there stars, I just typed shut
Signature and Avatar by Inkfox Aesthetics
underworld cerberus seems pretty good against reanimator and permission control, but terrible against aggro decks and the like. If they manage to kill your cerberus, then its very likely that they will capitalize on it's "morbid" effect much moreso than you will.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Signature and Avatar by Inkfox Aesthetics
FML. I cut it down to 6k, took it into a bit of revision and now I am back up to 8k and have all this crap I still want to include...
I seriously hope that people will read this entire thing.
Don't get depressed if people still slam you, some people don't like being told they are wrong or don't understand that other people can have opinions too.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
Personally, I cant wait to read it, I love myself a good article!
Signature and Avatar by Inkfox Aesthetics
I'm happy to read it as soon as you release it
I've been following this thread for the last few days after testing the deck and I love the discussion. I'd love to run Demon with Reckoner, but I think it's just a little too hard on the mana to do so. As others have discussed, I'm trying to find how many RtB I want and whether Magma Jet makes the cut. Hopefully the continued discussion here and more testing will leave me with a list I'm very confidant in by the weekend.
ALMOST!!!! This will more than likely be unslammable, and appreciated on another level.