so far I have not been able to nail down a list yet. there are a lot of cards and interactions that need testing. a few things that I can say for certain.
4 desecration demon
4 reckoners
3 blood baron
3 dragon
3 dreadbore
3 doomblade
other observations
mindsparker does well vs control decks but needs more support out of sb to do very well cards like duress or TS.
read the bones is awesome for this deck but 4 feels like too much
helix had been poor but is a must if you are maining RtB an TS
for those of you that play ember swallower have you switched up the numbers at all. How does he far againist other decks.
I am thinking this deck would do best with the biggest possible beef at the four spot.
I played 9 games against a friend's RDW, his deck consisted of a lot of one and two drops: Firedrinker Satyr, Rakdos Cackler, Young Pyromancer, Ash Zealot, Firefist Striker, Hammer of Purphoros, Chandra's Pheonix, and various burn spells. It played really well and most games were close, but I ended up winning 6 out of 9 times. We didn't sideboard so I didn't bring in any Anger of the Gods (I don't have any yet anyway ), but there were a few times that it would have swung some of those losses in my favor. On the other side it could have also swung some games in his favor if he had brought in Mortars for Baron.
The life gain from Baron, Obzedat, and Helix allowed me to stabilize in most games. The tokens from Hammer and YP kept Desecration Demon locked up, although it also allowed me to survive lethal strikes with less threats on his side of the board. Hammer looked really good for him, since he could make a token end of turn or right before combat it lead to some tense situations. Also burning my face and producing a token with YP and returning Chandra's Pheonix from the graveyard was annoying.
As for me I played my shock lands conservatively, mostly playing them tapped and playing behind curve every turn, but the lifegain and pure power of my deck's threats kept me on par with my opponent so I could stabilize. I got to play Thoughtseize only twice, but each time I grabbed Firefist striker surprising my opponent. My reasoning was that Firefist Striker was the only way his deck could reliably negate Boros Reckoner.
My manabase never let me down although there were a few times I was behind on dropping something for one turn, but I never had a "dead card" in my hand. Playing turn 3 Boros Reckoner into turn 4 Desecration Demon was possible 3 out of the 4 times I drew them both and the one time it wasn't was because I had a gate which still allowed me to drop the demon the next turn. Only once did he swing and pump his Satyr into my Reckoner when I was tapped out to trade with it and quickly realized the mistake when I said," Alright you kill Reckoner and take 7 Damage".
Firedrinker Satyr looks good when the opponent isn't playing burn, but if they are, his constant damage back to the controller was really bad. I never got to hit his Satyr with a Mortars, but I dreamed about it. The Satyr was solid as a turn 1 drop and then swing and pump for 3 damage on turn 2, but past turn 3 or 4 it seemed like more of a liability at least against our deck ;).
Just thought I should share my experience, my friend has played a variety of decks, but his favorite is RDW so he knows how to build and pilot such a deck so I consider the experience a good test for my deck against that archetype.
Later tonight I plan to test a list with the whip. I've been playing around with Kamahl's list exactly, but have found myself behind on life a bit, and im not liking that too much. Im not sure if i would want to run desecration demon in that list, since if you bring him in he is just likely to get tapped down, and be a waste. I would also say that it would be stupid not to run any obzedats in that list because of the beauty of that interaction. Sin collector would stay, that ETB is so powerful. I would also consider running the lfie drain = to devotion to B guy, just as the ability to flash him in for a life swing with the whip would be huge. I may be takiong it a bit far, but I would also consider a trading post or 2 in the list, as a way to further the long game, or weed out extra whips. I'll post when I create the list at home later, I'll build a base using what I already have with Kamahls, and see how it changes.
I've also seen a lot of creature based ramp as of late... is electrickery something we want to investigate or just keep an anger/mortars plan?
Later tonight I plan to test a list with the whip. I've been playing around with Kamahl's list exactly, but have found myself behind on life a bit, and im not liking that too much. Im not sure if i would want to run desecration demon in that list, since if you bring him in he is just likely to get tapped down, and be a waste. I would also say that it would be stupid not to run any obzedats in that list because of the beauty of that interaction. Sin collector would stay, that ETB is so powerful. I would also consider running the lfie drain = to devotion to B guy, just as the ability to flash him in for a life swing with the whip would be huge. I may be takiong it a bit far, but I would also consider a trading post or 2 in the list, as a way to further the long game, or weed out extra whips. I'll post when I create the list at home later, I'll build a base using what I already have with Kamahls, and see how it changes.
I've also seen a lot of creature based ramp as of late... is electrickery something we want to investigate or just keep an anger/mortars plan?
Yea the RG decks that have been doing very well on magic-league are running
If they are on the druid plan, electrickry could blow them out early. But you need it early otherwise they have a ember swallower out and monstrous
I've been testing this deck a lot against that RG over the weekend, It's a matchup where I really want the Whip. If I can get it down, it makes our creatures easily able to stabilize and win the fight against even a monstrous stormbreath. I think Anger is where I want to be to fight off their ramp, just because it hits Caryatid as well. I also agree with other comments that dreadbore seems better just because of the 2 mana compared to the three - no other deck makes me worry about that as much.
It really depends on how much of a player that RG deck is in the meta - I think it'll end up as a slightly less explosive version with Chandra over Xenagos.
The other issue with Hero's Downfall over Dreadbore is that even though it is instant, that double black is still hurtful. Even obzedat is a stretch at double black for us. We can nowhere as easily get both Reckoner mana and downfall mana both by T3 as last block.
I think that leaves two slight variations of this deck - a WR core splashing black for doom blade, dreadbore, and maybe blood baron, without running Whip, or a BR core splashing white for chained and helix, maybe Elspeth. I feel that Red needs to be a core here due to both Stormbreath and Anger, cards that need that double red by T3-5 for almost all cases.
Also, because of the huge color commitments, Mutavault is very difficult to fit in as well.
Helix is never dead. At worst it goes to face and helps at racing. It's reasonable to SB it out against said creatures but it's definitely a maindeckable card.
Dead as far as removal. Sorry, should not have assumed that was going to be understood as such.
One of the biggest decks we are pushing in private testing is Naya Midrange, the deck is incredibly powerful and as we have struggled against it in the past, Fleecemane Lion can be problematic when he goes monsterous out of nowhere in the later stages.
There are a lot of targets I can't, or do not want to Helix.
4 Loxodon Smiter
3-4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Advent of the Wurm
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Voice of Resurgence
Helix is such a rough card to be pulling in this match from our games yesterday, and doming them does not actually stop the onslaught, I would find myself doing it a lot just so I could try and live long enough to get out a BBV and try to gain some ground, but often times at that point, he was not going to save my from dying anyways.
This is only a single match, so I would not jump to the conclusion that replacing Helix is the best option we could explore, but when I think about where/if creatures like this will end up in other decks... it does not seem incredibly far fetched.
Later tonight I plan to test a list with the whip. I've been playing around with Kamahl's list exactly, but have found myself behind on life a bit, and im not liking that too much. Im not sure if i would want to run desecration demon in that list, since if you bring him in he is just likely to get tapped down, and be a waste. I would also say that it would be stupid not to run any obzedats in that list because of the beauty of that interaction. Sin collector would stay, that ETB is so powerful. I would also consider running the lfie drain = to devotion to B guy, just as the ability to flash him in for a life swing with the whip would be huge. I may be takiong it a bit far, but I would also consider a trading post or 2 in the list, as a way to further the long game, or weed out extra whips. I'll post when I create the list at home later, I'll build a base using what I already have with Kamahls, and see how it changes.
I've also seen a lot of creature based ramp as of late... is electrickery something we want to investigate or just keep an anger/mortars plan?
The list in the Primer is a bit out of date, I need to post a new one for you guys soon, but I can see how you are having trouble not falling behind on life.I changed my list before we jumped into our testing and before then it was doing fine, but after some games, when I want to look back at the list, I have a hard time running the exact 75 for that reason alone. It does not seem as robust as it was when I was running it. Maybe I am spoiled by Whip now. *shrug*
Skip Electrickery and just run Anger in the MB if creature ramp is a problem. I love sweeping away a board full of the 0/3 hexproof ramp critter
I've been testing this deck a lot against that RG over the weekend, It's a matchup where I really want the Whip. If I can get it down, it makes our creatures easily able to stabilize and win the fight against even a monstrous stormbreath. I think Anger is where I want to be to fight off their ramp, just because it hits Caryatid as well. I also agree with other comments that dreadbore seems better just because of the 2 mana compared to the three - no other deck makes me worry about that as much.
It really depends on how much of a player that RG deck is in the meta - I think it'll end up as a slightly less explosive version with Chandra over Xenagos.
The other issue with Hero's Downfall over Dreadbore is that even though it is instant, that double black is still hurtful. Even obzedat is a stretch at double black for us. We can nowhere as easily get both Reckoner mana and downfall mana both by T3 as last block.
I think that leaves two slight variations of this deck - a WR core splashing black for doom blade, dreadbore, and maybe blood baron, without running Whip, or a BR core splashing white for chained and helix, maybe Elspeth. I feel that Red needs to be a core here due to both Stormbreath and Anger, cards that need that double red by T3-5 for almost all cases.
Also, because of the huge color commitments, Mutavault is very difficult to fit in as well.
I agree the deck needs to either be B/R/w or W/R/b. Right know I am leaning toward B/R splashing white for Blood Baron, with Glare of Heresy, Helix out of the SB.
Dead as far as removal. Sorry, should not have assumed that was going to be understood as such.
One of the biggest decks we are pushing in private testing is Naya Midrange, the deck is incredibly powerful and as we have struggled against it in the past, Fleecemane Lion can be problematic when he goes monsterous out of nowhere in the later stages.
There are a lot of targets I can't, or do not want to Helix.
4 Loxodon Smiter
3-4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Advent of the Wurm
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Voice of Resurgence
Helix is such a rough card to be pulling in this match from our games yesterday, and doming them does not actually stop the onslaught, I would find myself doing it a lot just so I could try and live long enough to get out a BBV and try to gain some ground, but often times at that point, he was not going to save my from dying anyways.
This is only a single match, so I would not jump to the conclusion that replacing Helix is the best option we could explore, but when I think about where/if creatures like this will end up in other decks... it does not seem incredibly far fetched.
The list in the Primer is a bit out of date, I need to post a new one for you guys soon, but I can see how you are having trouble not falling behind on life.I changed my list before we jumped into our testing and before then it was doing fine, but after some games, when I want to look back at the list, I have a hard time running the exact 75 for that reason alone. It does not seem as robust as it was when I was running it. Maybe I am spoiled by Whip now. *shrug*
Skip Electrickery and just run Anger in the MB if creature ramp is a problem. I love sweeping away a board full of the 0/3 hexproof ramp critter
yay naya. How has advent been in yall testing? I havent tested the card since prerotation, all I remember is that when I +1 domri and I saw advent I felt a little sad. But the card was always a house when I played it.
love your list but im thinking dreadbore even at sorcery speed is probably better than hero's downfall. especially with your curve in particular.
looks good tho!
Hey thanks, Yea as it sets I been working this list for about 2 months now.
And slowly sticking things in as Theros got spoiled. I've had it proxied and working on it though.
The initial idea came about because Thragtusk and Sphinx's Revelation was so all over the place at my shop.
So I wanted to combine a deck that had use of Lifebane Zombie + Sin Collector. Then when you look at that color pie, you're just like you gotta run Rakdos's Return to go along with it.
Then at that point the removal/support package is easy.
So as I was tweeking it to include Theros, the list looked even more amazing.
Still tinkering with it, but this final list that I posted is def where I'm feeling my list is set.
i dont think they are direct replacements. I think sin collector is good. and in your list it fills out your 3 drop nicely. but i do think its a meta call. its an unknown meta right now so im anxious to hear what decks you play mostly.
As far as the Dreadbore VS Hero's Downfall debate goes, I'm picking Downfall simply because it's way more versatile. In this deck I don't want to be forced to choose on my TURN to kill a creature at Sorcery speed, only for them to drop something Hastey and more deadly. I'd rather either play Read the Bones or any of my Non Sorcery Removal spells, or leave myself untapped and kill something at Instant speed.
The agro has gotten slightly slower, so my thinking is that Magma Jet will get rid of the early little agro creatures which leaves Hero's Downfall atop the curve for removal. If there's no creatures, then I don't have to worry.
Heck even if there are creatures, it's a judgment call because this deck can gain so much life. (Yes it also can self inflict a lot of pain as well... But if you play smart, you can manage that.)
My Grixis list has both a 3 Hero's Downfall and a 2 Dreadbore split. I would love to do something like that, but I don't think in this list it's needed.
Personally, I think I will eventually go 4 Hero's Downfall.
i've switched to a mana base that has 2 swamps and everything else reckoner castable. also, dropped down to 6 cipt lands. its been doing way better than i thought.
I'm pretty good at developing mana bases and I must say... Developing this one seemed to have some challenges.
I probably worked harder and was more meticulous over this mana base then any other deck's base I've ever developed.
If you add more Red, you're probably losing Black. If you add more Black, you're probably losing Red. And in my List, it's heavy Red Black, so that was a challenge.
The other thing I was also concerned with is the CIPT lands just like a lot of others have talked about.
What I found though is that if you run the full set of SCRY lands, you're ok. There are turns where you have 1 drops or 2 drops and hitting that 3rd land that CIPT is not that bad. Especially if it's SCRY.
I've toyed with this list a ton... Even so much where I've kept hands with 5 lands in it if a few of them were SCRY lands and a Magma Jet.
You can SCRY yourself to Gas while dropping the 5 lands.
So personally I don't mind about the CIPT lands if most of them are SCRY lands. It helps you dig, it's almost as if you're playing with the Top Card of your library revealed. You know what's coming...
Not only do you know what's in your OP's hand, but you know what you're going to draw next.
That's valuable information to have in matches.
When you consider that only 9 of your 25 or 26 lands are CIPT, that's really not that much at all.
against hyper aggressive decks like bte decks or against the mono white stuff (which i think is a pretty solid deck overall), i bring in shocks and side out some of the slower things and read the bones. this is where the problem lies tho. i lose the deck fixing that scry provides outside of my temples. i really feel, magma jet needs to be in the 75 somewhere. even if its just a 2 of. this deck really needs to filter.
I think you're missing out big time not including Magma Jet in your list...
This actually surprises me...
I honestly haven't looked a lot at the Support Packages in a lot of peoples list, I was more interested in what Creatures and the Splits people were going.
People aren't running the JET?
Jet + Read the Bones is insanely amazing to dig through your deck.
Bonus JET will hit a lot of early creatures and kill them, or in a pinch use it to hit your opponent.
Combine JET + Read the Bones + SCRY Lands, it's insane!!! I can't say enough to advocate for this package.
A lot of the other things about the deck can be different, but I feel this package should be a starting point in most lists, if not all lists.
Try it out, it's amazing digging through your deck, if you have your 5 lands, then bury lands and look for Gas. If you've taken control of the board, then bury gas/lands and find Finishers.
To me this is the best part of this deck, because everything else can be adjusted and changed up based on the Meta.
But Magma Jet is a very nice option that kills a lot of the first 3 turn creatures.
Helix is never dead. At worst it goes to face and helps at racing. It's reasonable to SB it out against said creatures but it's definitely a maindeckable card.
I agree here, Helix is never dead. It can act as a Finisher, a Stabalizer, Removal, and the life swing is pretty damn good.
I have only put 2 in the deck but that was just merely because I wanted to be careful not to make my curve to high.
My initial list had all 4..
EDIT: Although, I do see where Kamahl is coming from. I only slotted it in my list x2, so I am ok with it being in my list VS these types of decks GM1. If it does prove to be a bad card in that matchup, then I'd just side it out.
I didn't go full boar into Helix, I used to, but to keep my Curve low I dropped it to 2 and I think that's acceptable.
One other thing of note: Monstrosity - You don't let a creature get to Monstrosity out of nowhere, your OP drops a creature that is meh, and as you see them drop lands, you do get the picture that it will get to Monstrosity soon. So I don't know how accurate that is...
My list runs a Lifebane + Anger + Hero's Downfall as ways of killing the Lion prior to it getting Monstrosity.
And then there's the 5 PRO White creatures that it can't deal with.
So I don't know that I'm all that worried about it... If that's true, I could even Thoughtseize it from their hand if it becomes too problematic.
...just my take, I appreciate all the testing you're putting in there Kamahl.
I agree the deck needs to either be B/R/w or W/R/b. Right know I am leaning toward B/R splashing white for Blood Baron, with Glare of Heresy, Helix out of the SB.
I consider my list BR/w, and so I would agree with you.
"If fetch lands are reprinted I really believe they will be in allied colors (aka Onslaught fetches). If the fetch lands are reprinted you better believe that we'll all be fetching up basics. This would lead me to believe that the set after THS may have a reprint as the temples can't be fetched but it's pure speculation." - posted 03/22/2014 proved correct during Khans spoiler season.
"The set releases for fall 2015 (Blood, Sweat and Tears) and fall 2016 (Lock, Stock and Barrel). One or both of those 2 blocks (I'm betting) are going to contain either Fetch reprints or (more likely) Filter reprints. Filter lands still need a reprint. They are getting pretty high up there and it's been longer than ZEN so it makes a little more sense that Filter lands would see print earlier that fetches." - posted 03/22/2014 proved incorrect about filters coming earlier than fetches, still pending on filters in Origins block.
yay naya. How has advent been in yall testing? I havent tested the card since prerotation, all I remember is that when I +1 domri and I saw advent I felt a little sad. But the card was always a house when I played it.
Solid, we are not running Domri at all in our list actually. I will copy it down and post it in your thread for you guys when I get a glance at it again. I really do not remember all of it off the top of my head. Archetype is just good in general though.
Not really, I will share this one with you I guess, it is close to where I want it, but not quite good enough for me to really want to post it to the primer just yet as there are a bunch of ideas going on within it.
Duress is probably coming out to open up 2 spots for something. Not sure yet.
No Returns MB probably not going to change.
Whip in in the board for the matches where I want the lifegain or recursion.
The list is okay... I wanted 26 land because I have stopped keeping 2 land hands as they could make things a bit sticky from time to time with the curve where it was at.
Duress is probably coming out to open up 2 spots for something. Not sure yet.
No Returns MB probably not going to change.
Whip in in the board for the matches where I want the lifegain or recursion.
The list is okay... I wanted 26 land because I have stopped keeping 2 land hands as they could make things a bit sticky from time to time with the curve where it was at.
Nice, I'm loving the Elspeth nod. She's a powerhouse. Maybe the 2 duress could be 2 Sin Collector? Seems like a body would be nice, but nabbing up any of the gods weapons is a plus for duress. Could fit 2 doom blade in there for problem cards like Stormbreath Dragon and pretty much anything green. (mistcutter, pulky etc...)
"If fetch lands are reprinted I really believe they will be in allied colors (aka Onslaught fetches). If the fetch lands are reprinted you better believe that we'll all be fetching up basics. This would lead me to believe that the set after THS may have a reprint as the temples can't be fetched but it's pure speculation." - posted 03/22/2014 proved correct during Khans spoiler season.
"The set releases for fall 2015 (Blood, Sweat and Tears) and fall 2016 (Lock, Stock and Barrel). One or both of those 2 blocks (I'm betting) are going to contain either Fetch reprints or (more likely) Filter reprints. Filter lands still need a reprint. They are getting pretty high up there and it's been longer than ZEN so it makes a little more sense that Filter lands would see print earlier that fetches." - posted 03/22/2014 proved incorrect about filters coming earlier than fetches, still pending on filters in Origins block.
I took Sin Collector out for them to see how I liked it, I am not liking it at all really. I need to give it more time before I cut it for sure though.
Elspeth is... meh. I like having her to blow up bigger dudes, that is kind of all she is really ever used for. I mean, she does put out tokens, but it is not really a commonly used option as she generally dies the turn after she lands regardless of what I do with her.
Wanted to touch on these two points as they were problematic before doom blade.
Re: dragon, he's a beast but we have demon a turn earlier. Also, even tho helix doesn't target him, in an absolutely worst case scenario u can send it to the face and negate that damage. I can very well see removing helix for spot removal like doom blade or even ultimate price if the dragon and advent become major players.
Re: advent of the wurm is the nuts. It still trades with reckoner however. Also, I'd u run chained to the rocks u have that option still.
I think junk midrange can become a major player. It doesn't have access to our red removal but has access to all the black stuff and advent and mana ramp. Could be a deck to watch out for. Especially blood baron into boon satyr enchant... Yikes!
Eldub: I'd like to see your latest list. I want to fit chained to the rocks and maybe more doom blades but I really am stingy about my space in the 75. Want to see where the glaring differences are.
Whip of erebros: can't stress how crazy this card is with our creatures. Reckoners become the craziest blockers, demon becomes a must answer etc. the recursion itself makes it so stellar.
Typical SB for RDW/BTE agro will be:
-2 Rakdos's Return
-2 Read the Bones
-1 Chandra, Pyromaster
+2 Chained to the Rocks
+3 Magma Jet
Control shells are:
-3 Anger of the Gods
-2 Mizzium Mortars
-1 Legion's Initiative (non-Verdict) or Dreadbore (minimal walkers)
+3 Duress
+2 Slaugher Games
+1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Pithing Needle & Wear//Tear can obviously come in when needed for specific cards that are difficult to deal with. Chained to the Rocks comes in to deal with the Gods or against midrange where Anger/Mortars are not effective.
I wanted to go with cheaper removal in the Hero's Downfall spot, but I couldn't handle another dead pure creature removal card in the control matchups. Hero's Downfall is a good catch-all. The BB casting cost is steep in my list but I find that I don't use the card before turn 4 and often not till much later. It also gives me a way to deal with Obzedat. Right now I have 13 Black sources. Mutavault may become a swamp soon =\.
Glare of Heresy seems like a card I want to get into my 75 but I don't have room. Same goes for Elspeth and another Whip.
I agree the deck needs to either be B/R/w or W/R/b. Right know I am leaning toward B/R splashing white for Blood Baron, with Glare of Heresy, Helix out of the SB.
I ended up on a Red heavy variant that's basically 50% Red and a splash of both black and white. I started out wanting a Black-heavy list, but the lands don't support it. Having a Mountain to lay down turn 3 for Reckoner/Anger/RtB is amazing. It also helps playing Chained to the Rocks.
I like your list, vastly different then mine, yet you make great cases for your card choices so I can only assume it's working out for you very well.
That's one thing I love about Magic, everyone can take a deck idea, and build it to suit their own play style better.
That's why I try not to dog anyone's list...
One thing I am curious about, as I've seen it in a few lists now.
Ember Swallower? I could dig through the many pages of this thread and probably someone explains it, sorry I didn't do that.
Also, one other point of note: Have you considered a 3 - 2 split of Dreadbore with Hero's Downfall?
I think Hero's Downfall is outstanding and I agree with your assessment of it, not casting it till around Turn 4 or greater and so the Double Black isn't really that much of a problem for most mana bases, people just over think it and get worried.
I did a 3 Hero's Downfall + 2 Dreadbore split in my Grixis list.
However; maybe since you like Dreadbore more, maybe a 3 Dreadbore / 2 Hero's Downfall split for you?
Instant Speed insta kills are going to be important, so I think you'll need 1 more in there.
Just a thought...
I also really like the 3 Anger of the Gods with 2 Mizzium Mortars split.
I've seen that a few times in other lists. I'm jealous!
Wonder where I could find the room....
Also how is Legion's Initiative and Chandra working out for you?
Those are curious inclusions as well... but I think both suit your list very well!
Typical SB for RDW/BTE agro will be:
-2 Rakdos's Return
-2 Read the Bones
-1 Chandra, Pyromaster
+2 Chained to the Rocks
+3 Magma Jet
Control shells are:
-3 Anger of the Gods
-2 Mizzium Mortars
-1 Legion's Initiative (non-Verdict) or Dreadbore (minimal walkers)
+3 Duress
+2 Slaugher Games
+1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Pithing Needle & Wear//Tear can obviously come in when needed for specific cards that are difficult to deal with. Chained to the Rocks comes in to deal with the Gods or against midrange where Anger/Mortars are not effective.
I wanted to go with cheaper removal in the Hero's Downfall spot, but I couldn't handle another dead pure creature removal card in the control matchups. Hero's Downfall is a good catch-all. The BB casting cost is steep in my list but I find that I don't use the card before turn 4 and often not till much later. It also gives me a way to deal with Obzedat. Right now I have 13 Black sources. Mutavault may become a swamp soon =\.
Glare of Heresy seems like a card I want to get into my 75 but I don't have room. Same goes for Elspeth and another Whip.
I ended up on a Red heavy variant that's basically 50% Red and a splash of both black and white. I started out wanting a Black-heavy list, but the lands don't support it. Having a Mountain to lay down turn 3 for Reckoner/Anger/RtB is amazing. It also helps playing Chained to the Rocks.
Can you share your thoughts/experiences on Ember Swallower. I have been considering it but as of yet have not been able to work it into the deck. I believe this deck needs more than 13-15 creatures to be effective. Not yours, just a general observation.
Ember Swallower? I could dig through the many pages of this thread and probably someone explains it, sorry I didn't do that.
...
Also, one other point of note: Have you considered a 3 - 2 split of Dreadbore with Hero's Downfall?
...
Also how is Legion's Initiative and Chandra working out for you?
Ember Swallower serves the purpose of board presence before I have 5 mana to play my real threats. It also deals with opposing Blood Baron. Many people run Desecration Demon in this slot (my list did originally), but I don't have the mana base to support BB on turn 4. I highly suggest you give the card a try (as a 2-of) if you are under 15 black mana producing lands. Also, don't underestimate the power of an instant-speed way to destroy 3 of your opponents lands. Typically you'll play this on your turn to attack for lethal, but you can absolutely use it in other ways.
I need 4x Dreadbore only because my list needs more potential answers turn 2. My 3CMC slot is already quite full with Reckoner/RtB/Anger/1xDownfall.
Chandra may end up in the sideboard eventually as a 2x.
Legion's Initiative is a favorite of mine. It's presence makes Reckoner and Blood Baron so much harder to deal with for my opponent. Having it on the board also make a late game top deck Anger of the Gods a lot more powerful because it's interaction with a 4 toughness Reckoner is awesome.
Ember Swallower serves the purpose of board presence before I have 5 mana to play my real threats. It also deals with opposing Blood Baron. Many people run Desecration Demon in this slot (my list did originally), but I don't have the mana base to support BB on turn 4. I highly suggest you give the card a try (as a 2-of) if you are under 15 black mana producing lands.
Valid points indeed... Your deck went more towards the RW side though, mine however went more of the BR side, so I don't have issues hitting my Desecration Demon or Hero BB.
I really love the points you made about Swallower though, it does certainly stare down Blood Baron, no doubt about it. Smart!
Also, don't underestimate the power of an instant-speed way to destroy 3 of your opponents lands. Typically you'll play this on your turn to attack for lethal, but you can absolutely use it in other ways.
It also destroys 3 of your lands too doesn't it?
That's the part that turned me off it immediately... I don't like the idea of destroying 3 of mine just to get 3 of theirs. My board presence had best be very very good before I go there.
However for your previous points, it's still worth including in heavier R decks for sure.
Legion's Initiative is a favorite of mine. It's presence makes Reckoner and Blood Baron so much harder to deal with for my opponent. Having it on the board also make a late game top deck Anger of the Gods a lot more powerful because it's interaction with a 4 toughness Reckoner is awesome.
Very valid points!
I don't run Reckoner, but in your list that does seem amazing for sure.
I still feel that reckoner is needed regardless of base, but its 2-3 in BR opposed to WR. There is no other card that comes so close to shutting down early aggro in this format. It really depends how much aggro takes over the format, but it seems like the 3 drops I'd want would be either reckoner, anger, or read the bones, and nothing else on t3. Read is not the best facing down opposing creatures, and well I want something more than just one card.
Ember Swallower Monstrosity certainly does kill three of your own lands as well. It's an ability I typically use when I have superior board presence, RtB/Lands in my hand, or I'm a bit flooded.
I still feel that reckoner is needed regardless of base, but its 2-3 in BR opposed to WR. There is no other card that comes so close to shutting down early aggro in this format. It really depends how much aggro takes over the format, but it seems like the 3 drops I'd want would be either reckoner, anger, or read the bones, and nothing else on t3. Read is not the best facing down opposing creatures, and well I want something more than just one card.
You might be right...
I've toyed with Reckoner a great deal, and I think it comes down to exactly what you said.
Speculation as to what the format will be like and what the Aggro will be like.
Will the format have aggro as fast as it was before the Rotation?
Will the format have faster aggro Post Rotation?
Will the format be a tad slower?
I think the answers to those few questions among others can determine what choices to go with.
Personally, I believe the format will slow down, there will still be great aggro decks, there always is. Will they be as fast as they were before the rotation? I don't think so...
So I think removal will be a thing again instead of worrying about racing.
Regardless, no matter what way you go, I agree Reckoner is very very good, you can't go wrong including him.
I went a different direction, the more Hand Disruption direction, the direction focused on beating Control first.
Beating Cards like Sphinx's Revelation, Counters, Surpreme Verdict, AEtherling and other bomby control creatures in W/U.
That's the direction I focused my MB around while still making sure I can win the aggro matches.
If the aggro is anything like it was before the rotation, then yea I think my list could have some problems and a tweek maybe in order.
Ember Swallower Monstrosity certainly does kill three of your own lands as well. It's an ability I typically use when I have superior board presence, RtB/Lands in my hand, or I'm a bit flooded.
Makes perfect sense to me... I really like it, it seems like a Wildcard, and I love having a Wildcard.
You just talked me into buying a few to try out...
If nothing else, I could see it being really good VS Mirror to our decks, or even Esper decks featuring Blood Barons.
Swallower is new to the list as is the Legion's package. Both Legion cards offer outs to control decks that pack cards like turn/burn and far/away and supreme verdict. I haven't tested the whip at all but it is in sb for when i bring in TS to help off set the damage I inflict on myself ,originally it was helix and could possibly stay as so. Assemble was something my group feel into when going through control mirror matches. It requires a specific answer and blanks a good portion of their removal. At times TS as been split 3/3 with duress, but often i am choosing non-creature spells so the 2 damage is not worth it.
I think you should probably focus on either the Demon or Ember Sallower, 6 slots for both of them seems a little outlandish. Ember Swallower is probably just going to do a better job of protecting you than Demon, more often than not.
I took Sin Collector out for them to see how I liked it, I am not liking it at all really. I need to give it more time before I cut it for sure though.
Elspeth is... meh. I like having her to blow up bigger dudes, that is kind of all she is really ever used for. I mean, she does put out tokens, but it is not really a commonly used option as she generally dies the turn after she lands regardless of what I do with her.
Eyes gust want MOAR lyfeganze!!!!!
...I hesitate to suggest you are doing it wrong but that is just so far from my experience with Elspeth. For me, she is so good at gumming up the board while ticking up to a game-winning ult that I've never -3'ed her except as a last resort. In my testing she has won ~90% of the games I have cast her.
...I hesitate to suggest you are doing it wrong but that is just so far from my experience with Elspeth. For me, she is so good at gumming up the board while ticking up to a game-winning ult that I've never -3'ed her except as a last resort. In my testing she has won ~90% of the games I have cast her.
I would say you are correct that I am doing it wrong, if I was going to live without blowing up the bigger dudes. However, in most cases, if I spam tokens, I die.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Stormbreath Dragon
Advent tokens
Are some of the most common play scenarios where Elspeth is coming down and it is generally after fending off a horde of Smiters, Voices and Fleecemane Lions.
So I would be apt to agree with you, if I was not going to die by putting tokens out. I also think you were taking my results as a testament to her being bad, and that is not what I was getting at in any way shape or form. What I was getting at, is that she is not working with the current list and the configuration outside of Elspeth is for the most part, the most optimal revision I have on the table.
4 desecration demon
4 reckoners
3 blood baron
3 dragon
3 dreadbore
3 doomblade
other observations
mindsparker does well vs control decks but needs more support out of sb to do very well cards like duress or TS.
read the bones is awesome for this deck but 4 feels like too much
helix had been poor but is a must if you are maining RtB an TS
for those of you that play ember swallower have you switched up the numbers at all. How does he far againist other decks.
I am thinking this deck would do best with the biggest possible beef at the four spot.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
The life gain from Baron, Obzedat, and Helix allowed me to stabilize in most games. The tokens from Hammer and YP kept Desecration Demon locked up, although it also allowed me to survive lethal strikes with less threats on his side of the board. Hammer looked really good for him, since he could make a token end of turn or right before combat it lead to some tense situations. Also burning my face and producing a token with YP and returning Chandra's Pheonix from the graveyard was annoying.
As for me I played my shock lands conservatively, mostly playing them tapped and playing behind curve every turn, but the lifegain and pure power of my deck's threats kept me on par with my opponent so I could stabilize. I got to play Thoughtseize only twice, but each time I grabbed Firefist striker surprising my opponent. My reasoning was that Firefist Striker was the only way his deck could reliably negate Boros Reckoner.
My manabase never let me down although there were a few times I was behind on dropping something for one turn, but I never had a "dead card" in my hand. Playing turn 3 Boros Reckoner into turn 4 Desecration Demon was possible 3 out of the 4 times I drew them both and the one time it wasn't was because I had a gate which still allowed me to drop the demon the next turn. Only once did he swing and pump his Satyr into my Reckoner when I was tapped out to trade with it and quickly realized the mistake when I said," Alright you kill Reckoner and take 7 Damage".
Firedrinker Satyr looks good when the opponent isn't playing burn, but if they are, his constant damage back to the controller was really bad. I never got to hit his Satyr with a Mortars, but I dreamed about it. The Satyr was solid as a turn 1 drop and then swing and pump for 3 damage on turn 2, but past turn 3 or 4 it seemed like more of a liability at least against our deck ;).
Just thought I should share my experience, my friend has played a variety of decks, but his favorite is RDW so he knows how to build and pilot such a deck so I consider the experience a good test for my deck against that archetype.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
I've also seen a lot of creature based ramp as of late... is electrickery something we want to investigate or just keep an anger/mortars plan?
Yea the RG decks that have been doing very well on magic-league are running
4 elvish mystics
4 satyr hedronist
4 Zur-Taa Druid/Sylvan Caryatid
If they are on the druid plan, electrickry could blow them out early. But you need it early otherwise they have a ember swallower out and monstrous
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
I've been testing this deck a lot against that RG over the weekend, It's a matchup where I really want the Whip. If I can get it down, it makes our creatures easily able to stabilize and win the fight against even a monstrous stormbreath. I think Anger is where I want to be to fight off their ramp, just because it hits Caryatid as well. I also agree with other comments that dreadbore seems better just because of the 2 mana compared to the three - no other deck makes me worry about that as much.
It really depends on how much of a player that RG deck is in the meta - I think it'll end up as a slightly less explosive version with Chandra over Xenagos.
The other issue with Hero's Downfall over Dreadbore is that even though it is instant, that double black is still hurtful. Even obzedat is a stretch at double black for us. We can nowhere as easily get both Reckoner mana and downfall mana both by T3 as last block.
I think that leaves two slight variations of this deck - a WR core splashing black for doom blade, dreadbore, and maybe blood baron, without running Whip, or a BR core splashing white for chained and helix, maybe Elspeth. I feel that Red needs to be a core here due to both Stormbreath and Anger, cards that need that double red by T3-5 for almost all cases.
Also, because of the huge color commitments, Mutavault is very difficult to fit in as well.
Dead as far as removal. Sorry, should not have assumed that was going to be understood as such.
One of the biggest decks we are pushing in private testing is Naya Midrange, the deck is incredibly powerful and as we have struggled against it in the past, Fleecemane Lion can be problematic when he goes monsterous out of nowhere in the later stages.
There are a lot of targets I can't, or do not want to Helix.
4 Loxodon Smiter
3-4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Advent of the Wurm
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Voice of Resurgence
Helix is such a rough card to be pulling in this match from our games yesterday, and doming them does not actually stop the onslaught, I would find myself doing it a lot just so I could try and live long enough to get out a BBV and try to gain some ground, but often times at that point, he was not going to save my from dying anyways.
This is only a single match, so I would not jump to the conclusion that replacing Helix is the best option we could explore, but when I think about where/if creatures like this will end up in other decks... it does not seem incredibly far fetched.
The list in the Primer is a bit out of date, I need to post a new one for you guys soon, but I can see how you are having trouble not falling behind on life.I changed my list before we jumped into our testing and before then it was doing fine, but after some games, when I want to look back at the list, I have a hard time running the exact 75 for that reason alone. It does not seem as robust as it was when I was running it. Maybe I am spoiled by Whip now. *shrug*
Skip Electrickery and just run Anger in the MB if creature ramp is a problem. I love sweeping away a board full of the 0/3 hexproof ramp critter
I agree the deck needs to either be B/R/w or W/R/b. Right know I am leaning toward B/R splashing white for Blood Baron, with Glare of Heresy, Helix out of the SB.
yay naya. How has advent been in yall testing? I havent tested the card since prerotation, all I remember is that when I +1 domri and I saw advent I felt a little sad. But the card was always a house when I played it.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
Hey thanks, Yea as it sets I been working this list for about 2 months now.
And slowly sticking things in as Theros got spoiled. I've had it proxied and working on it though.
The initial idea came about because Thragtusk and Sphinx's Revelation was so all over the place at my shop.
So I wanted to combine a deck that had use of Lifebane Zombie + Sin Collector. Then when you look at that color pie, you're just like you gotta run Rakdos's Return to go along with it.
Then at that point the removal/support package is easy.
So as I was tweeking it to include Theros, the list looked even more amazing.
Still tinkering with it, but this final list that I posted is def where I'm feeling my list is set.
As far as the Dreadbore VS Hero's Downfall debate goes, I'm picking Downfall simply because it's way more versatile. In this deck I don't want to be forced to choose on my TURN to kill a creature at Sorcery speed, only for them to drop something Hastey and more deadly. I'd rather either play Read the Bones or any of my Non Sorcery Removal spells, or leave myself untapped and kill something at Instant speed.
The agro has gotten slightly slower, so my thinking is that Magma Jet will get rid of the early little agro creatures which leaves Hero's Downfall atop the curve for removal. If there's no creatures, then I don't have to worry.
Heck even if there are creatures, it's a judgment call because this deck can gain so much life. (Yes it also can self inflict a lot of pain as well... But if you play smart, you can manage that.)
My Grixis list has both a 3 Hero's Downfall and a 2 Dreadbore split. I would love to do something like that, but I don't think in this list it's needed.
Personally, I think I will eventually go 4 Hero's Downfall.
I'm pretty good at developing mana bases and I must say... Developing this one seemed to have some challenges.
I probably worked harder and was more meticulous over this mana base then any other deck's base I've ever developed.
If you add more Red, you're probably losing Black. If you add more Black, you're probably losing Red. And in my List, it's heavy Red Black, so that was a challenge.
The other thing I was also concerned with is the CIPT lands just like a lot of others have talked about.
What I found though is that if you run the full set of SCRY lands, you're ok. There are turns where you have 1 drops or 2 drops and hitting that 3rd land that CIPT is not that bad. Especially if it's SCRY.
I've toyed with this list a ton... Even so much where I've kept hands with 5 lands in it if a few of them were SCRY lands and a Magma Jet.
You can SCRY yourself to Gas while dropping the 5 lands.
So personally I don't mind about the CIPT lands if most of them are SCRY lands. It helps you dig, it's almost as if you're playing with the Top Card of your library revealed. You know what's coming...
Not only do you know what's in your OP's hand, but you know what you're going to draw next.
That's valuable information to have in matches.
When you consider that only 9 of your 25 or 26 lands are CIPT, that's really not that much at all.
I think you're missing out big time not including Magma Jet in your list...
This actually surprises me...
I honestly haven't looked a lot at the Support Packages in a lot of peoples list, I was more interested in what Creatures and the Splits people were going.
People aren't running the JET?
Jet + Read the Bones is insanely amazing to dig through your deck.
Bonus JET will hit a lot of early creatures and kill them, or in a pinch use it to hit your opponent.
Combine JET + Read the Bones + SCRY Lands, it's insane!!! I can't say enough to advocate for this package.
A lot of the other things about the deck can be different, but I feel this package should be a starting point in most lists, if not all lists.
Try it out, it's amazing digging through your deck, if you have your 5 lands, then bury lands and look for Gas. If you've taken control of the board, then bury gas/lands and find Finishers.
To me this is the best part of this deck, because everything else can be adjusted and changed up based on the Meta.
But Magma Jet is a very nice option that kills a lot of the first 3 turn creatures.
Read the Bones is already amazing on it's own.
This combination seemed like a no brainer to me.
I agree here, Helix is never dead. It can act as a Finisher, a Stabalizer, Removal, and the life swing is pretty damn good.
I have only put 2 in the deck but that was just merely because I wanted to be careful not to make my curve to high.
My initial list had all 4..
EDIT: Although, I do see where Kamahl is coming from. I only slotted it in my list x2, so I am ok with it being in my list VS these types of decks GM1. If it does prove to be a bad card in that matchup, then I'd just side it out.
I didn't go full boar into Helix, I used to, but to keep my Curve low I dropped it to 2 and I think that's acceptable.
One other thing of note: Monstrosity - You don't let a creature get to Monstrosity out of nowhere, your OP drops a creature that is meh, and as you see them drop lands, you do get the picture that it will get to Monstrosity soon. So I don't know how accurate that is...
My list runs a Lifebane + Anger + Hero's Downfall as ways of killing the Lion prior to it getting Monstrosity.
And then there's the 5 PRO White creatures that it can't deal with.
So I don't know that I'm all that worried about it... If that's true, I could even Thoughtseize it from their hand if it becomes too problematic.
...just my take, I appreciate all the testing you're putting in there Kamahl.
I consider my list BR/w, and so I would agree with you.
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Desecration Demon
1 Lifebane Zombie
2 Sin Collector
Spells: 21
2 Rakdos's Return
4 Thoughtseize
2 Warleader's Helix
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Magma Jet
3 Read the Bones
1 Underworld Connections
1 Whip of Erebos
Lands: 25
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Triumph
3 Unknown Shores
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Wear/Tear
2 Sin Collector
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Slaughter Games
3 Devour Flesh
2 Pithing Needle
AVG Curve = 3
"The set releases for fall 2015 (Blood, Sweat and Tears) and fall 2016 (Lock, Stock and Barrel). One or both of those 2 blocks (I'm betting) are going to contain either Fetch reprints or (more likely) Filter reprints. Filter lands still need a reprint. They are getting pretty high up there and it's been longer than ZEN so it makes a little more sense that Filter lands would see print earlier that fetches." - posted 03/22/2014 proved incorrect about filters coming earlier than fetches, still pending on filters in Origins block.
Solid, we are not running Domri at all in our list actually. I will copy it down and post it in your thread for you guys when I get a glance at it again. I really do not remember all of it off the top of my head. Archetype is just good in general though.
Not really, I will share this one with you I guess, it is close to where I want it, but not quite good enough for me to really want to post it to the primer just yet as there are a bunch of ideas going on within it.
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Stormbreath Dragon
Planeswalker (2)
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Enchantment (3)
3 Chained to the Rocks
Legendary Creature (2)
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
Instant (3)
3 Warleader's Helix
Sorcery (14)
3 Dreadbore
2 Read the Bones
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Duress
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Thoughtseize
3 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Mutavault
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
1 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Blood Crypt
3 Wear // Tear
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Thoughtseize
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Doom Blade
2 Rakdos's Return
1 Dreadbore
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Dark Betrayal
Duress is probably coming out to open up 2 spots for something. Not sure yet.
No Returns MB probably not going to change.
Whip in in the board for the matches where I want the lifegain or recursion.
The list is okay... I wanted 26 land because I have stopped keeping 2 land hands as they could make things a bit sticky from time to time with the curve where it was at.
Nice, I'm loving the Elspeth nod. She's a powerhouse. Maybe the 2 duress could be 2 Sin Collector? Seems like a body would be nice, but nabbing up any of the gods weapons is a plus for duress. Could fit 2 doom blade in there for problem cards like Stormbreath Dragon and pretty much anything green. (mistcutter, pulky etc...)
"The set releases for fall 2015 (Blood, Sweat and Tears) and fall 2016 (Lock, Stock and Barrel). One or both of those 2 blocks (I'm betting) are going to contain either Fetch reprints or (more likely) Filter reprints. Filter lands still need a reprint. They are getting pretty high up there and it's been longer than ZEN so it makes a little more sense that Filter lands would see print earlier that fetches." - posted 03/22/2014 proved incorrect about filters coming earlier than fetches, still pending on filters in Origins block.
Elspeth is... meh. I like having her to blow up bigger dudes, that is kind of all she is really ever used for. I mean, she does put out tokens, but it is not really a commonly used option as she generally dies the turn after she lands regardless of what I do with her.
4x Blood Crypt
4x Godless Shrine
5x Mountain
1x Mutavault
4x Sacred Foundry
1x Swamp
4x Temple of Silence
2x Temple of Triumph
Creature (13)
4x Boros Reckoner
2x Ember Swallower
2x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
1x Aurelia, the Warleader
4x Dreadbore
2x Mizzium Mortars
3x Anger of the Gods
4x Read the Bones
2x Rakdos's Return
Instant (3)
1x Hero's Downfall
2x Warleader's Helix
Enchantment (3)
1x Legion's Initiative
1x Heliod, God of the Sun
1x Whip of Erebos
Planeswalker (1)
1x Chandra, Pyromaster
2x Chained to the Rocks
1x Chandra, Pyromaster
3x Duress
3x Magma Jet
2x Pithing Needle
2x Slaughter Games
2x Wear / Tear
Typical SB for RDW/BTE agro will be:
-2 Rakdos's Return
-2 Read the Bones
-1 Chandra, Pyromaster
+2 Chained to the Rocks
+3 Magma Jet
Control shells are:
-3 Anger of the Gods
-2 Mizzium Mortars
-1 Legion's Initiative (non-Verdict) or Dreadbore (minimal walkers)
+3 Duress
+2 Slaugher Games
+1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Pithing Needle & Wear//Tear can obviously come in when needed for specific cards that are difficult to deal with. Chained to the Rocks comes in to deal with the Gods or against midrange where Anger/Mortars are not effective.
I wanted to go with cheaper removal in the Hero's Downfall spot, but I couldn't handle another dead pure creature removal card in the control matchups. Hero's Downfall is a good catch-all. The BB casting cost is steep in my list but I find that I don't use the card before turn 4 and often not till much later. It also gives me a way to deal with Obzedat. Right now I have 13 Black sources. Mutavault may become a swamp soon =\.
Glare of Heresy seems like a card I want to get into my 75 but I don't have room. Same goes for Elspeth and another Whip.
I ended up on a Red heavy variant that's basically 50% Red and a splash of both black and white. I started out wanting a Black-heavy list, but the lands don't support it. Having a Mountain to lay down turn 3 for Reckoner/Anger/RtB is amazing. It also helps playing Chained to the Rocks.
I like your list, vastly different then mine, yet you make great cases for your card choices so I can only assume it's working out for you very well.
That's one thing I love about Magic, everyone can take a deck idea, and build it to suit their own play style better.
That's why I try not to dog anyone's list...
One thing I am curious about, as I've seen it in a few lists now.
Ember Swallower? I could dig through the many pages of this thread and probably someone explains it, sorry I didn't do that.
Also, one other point of note: Have you considered a 3 - 2 split of Dreadbore with Hero's Downfall?
I think Hero's Downfall is outstanding and I agree with your assessment of it, not casting it till around Turn 4 or greater and so the Double Black isn't really that much of a problem for most mana bases, people just over think it and get worried.
I did a 3 Hero's Downfall + 2 Dreadbore split in my Grixis list.
However; maybe since you like Dreadbore more, maybe a 3 Dreadbore / 2 Hero's Downfall split for you?
Instant Speed insta kills are going to be important, so I think you'll need 1 more in there.
Just a thought...
I also really like the 3 Anger of the Gods with 2 Mizzium Mortars split.
I've seen that a few times in other lists. I'm jealous!
Wonder where I could find the room....
Also how is Legion's Initiative and Chandra working out for you?
Those are curious inclusions as well... but I think both suit your list very well!
I enjoyed this thought out Sideboarding plan shells...
I'm terrible with Sideboards to be honest, this gives me ideas.
Thanks
I haven't been able to get Mutavault in my list...
How often is it a problem for you?
I was thinking the same thing for my deck...
Find room for a few in my Sideboard is what I'm thinking...
Thanks for sharing your list.
Can you share your thoughts/experiences on Ember Swallower. I have been considering it but as of yet have not been able to work it into the deck. I believe this deck needs more than 13-15 creatures to be effective. Not yours, just a general observation.
Ember Swallower serves the purpose of board presence before I have 5 mana to play my real threats. It also deals with opposing Blood Baron. Many people run Desecration Demon in this slot (my list did originally), but I don't have the mana base to support BB on turn 4. I highly suggest you give the card a try (as a 2-of) if you are under 15 black mana producing lands. Also, don't underestimate the power of an instant-speed way to destroy 3 of your opponents lands. Typically you'll play this on your turn to attack for lethal, but you can absolutely use it in other ways.
I need 4x Dreadbore only because my list needs more potential answers turn 2. My 3CMC slot is already quite full with Reckoner/RtB/Anger/1xDownfall.
Chandra may end up in the sideboard eventually as a 2x.
Legion's Initiative is a favorite of mine. It's presence makes Reckoner and Blood Baron so much harder to deal with for my opponent. Having it on the board also make a late game top deck Anger of the Gods a lot more powerful because it's interaction with a 4 toughness Reckoner is awesome.
Valid points indeed... Your deck went more towards the RW side though, mine however went more of the BR side, so I don't have issues hitting my Desecration Demon or Hero BB.
I really love the points you made about Swallower though, it does certainly stare down Blood Baron, no doubt about it. Smart!
It also destroys 3 of your lands too doesn't it?
That's the part that turned me off it immediately... I don't like the idea of destroying 3 of mine just to get 3 of theirs. My board presence had best be very very good before I go there.
However for your previous points, it's still worth including in heavier R decks for sure.
What are you so afraid of on Turn 2 that you need such a high classed removal spell like Dreadbore?
Just curious, as I probably haven't considered this threat that early myself.
Very valid points!
I don't run Reckoner, but in your list that does seem amazing for sure.
You might be right...
I've toyed with Reckoner a great deal, and I think it comes down to exactly what you said.
Speculation as to what the format will be like and what the Aggro will be like.
Will the format have aggro as fast as it was before the Rotation?
Will the format have faster aggro Post Rotation?
Will the format be a tad slower?
I think the answers to those few questions among others can determine what choices to go with.
Personally, I believe the format will slow down, there will still be great aggro decks, there always is. Will they be as fast as they were before the rotation? I don't think so...
So I think removal will be a thing again instead of worrying about racing.
Regardless, no matter what way you go, I agree Reckoner is very very good, you can't go wrong including him.
I went a different direction, the more Hand Disruption direction, the direction focused on beating Control first.
Beating Cards like Sphinx's Revelation, Counters, Surpreme Verdict, AEtherling and other bomby control creatures in W/U.
That's the direction I focused my MB around while still making sure I can win the aggro matches.
If the aggro is anything like it was before the rotation, then yea I think my list could have some problems and a tweek maybe in order.
Makes perfect sense to me... I really like it, it seems like a Wildcard, and I love having a Wildcard.
You just talked me into buying a few to try out...
If nothing else, I could see it being really good VS Mirror to our decks, or even Esper decks featuring Blood Barons.
Could be brought in from the Side too...
So yea, I'll pick up a few and keep them handy.
4 Desecration Demon
2 Ember Swallower
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
3 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Dreadbore
3 Doomblade
2 Anger the Gods
3 Magma Jet
3 Read the Bones
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Assemble the Legion
25 lands
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Triumph
1 Rakdous Guildgate
4 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Glare of Heresy
4 Duress
4 Mindsparker
2 Thoughtsieze
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Warleader's helix or Whip of Erebus
Swallower is new to the list as is the Legion's package. Both Legion cards offer outs to control decks that pack cards like turn/burn and far/away and supreme verdict. I haven't tested the whip at all but it is in sb for when i bring in TS to help off set the damage I inflict on myself ,originally it was helix and could possibly stay as so. Assemble was something my group feel into when going through control mirror matches. It requires a specific answer and blanks a good portion of their removal. At times TS as been split 3/3 with duress, but often i am choosing non-creature spells so the 2 damage is not worth it.
I think you should probably focus on either the Demon or Ember Sallower, 6 slots for both of them seems a little outlandish. Ember Swallower is probably just going to do a better job of protecting you than Demon, more often than not.
...I hesitate to suggest you are doing it wrong but that is just so far from my experience with Elspeth. For me, she is so good at gumming up the board while ticking up to a game-winning ult that I've never -3'ed her except as a last resort. In my testing she has won ~90% of the games I have cast her.
I would say you are correct that I am doing it wrong, if I was going to live without blowing up the bigger dudes. However, in most cases, if I spam tokens, I die.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Stormbreath Dragon
Advent tokens
Are some of the most common play scenarios where Elspeth is coming down and it is generally after fending off a horde of Smiters, Voices and Fleecemane Lions.
So I would be apt to agree with you, if I was not going to die by putting tokens out. I also think you were taking my results as a testament to her being bad, and that is not what I was getting at in any way shape or form. What I was getting at, is that she is not working with the current list and the configuration outside of Elspeth is for the most part, the most optimal revision I have on the table.