I have officially removed Obzedat from the main and it actually runs better without him there. I originally took out whip too, but since I had a slot left open in the deck I kept it in. Also cut Aurelia too. I'd love to have them both main, but I had to cut the glut of 5 drops that were making my hands and plays so clunky and inconsistent. Dragon and Baron is more than enough. The pro red makes them strong against white decks including the control decks. I will admit I did put Desecration Demon back in since my removal suite ticked up after dropping Obzedat the demon actually functions better now then it ever did. Granted it isn't great vs control and decks with tons of removal, balancing it with finishers that are strong vs control and disruption worked out in the end. Even managed to keep keyrunes in too.
@BlackRaine: I think playing closer to the 4 spot really benefits this deck a lot. I guess you become weaker to control, but you become better against everything else.
Played last night and top 8ed using whip+obzedat+aurelia. Firstly, I'll say I got lucky since a guy that beat me decided to give me the win since he had to go. Secondly, obzedat continued to do roughly nothing, except the one time I got obzedat+whip going. I don't think he fits my build, which is more beatdown than control so I'm dropping him for stormbreath. Anger also underperformed surprisingly. I think its because my meta is largely big green creatures and I saw no aggro. I think I will go with 4 reckoners in main over anger so I'm still strong against aggro while also having someone who can pressure control and trade with big green guys that hit on the ground. Aurelia continues to be amazing for me and whip was a solid card through out.
So I have been playing this deck since rotation and had posted here in this thread a few times, but a while back. Even though I have been taking a hiatus from posting, I've still been playing, testing, looking at new cards and how it all fits into the meta. Here is a four stage evolution of the deck that I've been working with and why/how I came to the new additions.
At the time I like the Precinct Captains because they can steal games from Control. If they don't have any answer to it, they will just lose to the pressure that Captain provides on its own. Meaning I didn't have to advance the board at all. This is a huge asset in the Control match up, which I felt at the time was, and still feel actually, the weakest match up for the deck. I was using a 1/1 split of Obzedat and whip to try and get there. The combo was nice but not reliable which I why I was running 1/1 instead of 2/2 or some other split (which admittedly made it more unreliable). You might notice the Merciless Eviction in the deck. I was running that because it stops devotion decks cold. They have to over-commit to the board in order to get devotion going. This is mostly why they struggle against control decks. Not to mention, once their god comes online you can call creatures and get everything. A really big play. The sideboard was an amalgamation of what I thought at the time was the correct way to attack control. I also don't have Desecration Demon in the list because I hate it and think that it is garbage. No offense if you like the card but when I was using it, it either got tapped down, removed or laughed at. It had its moments where it destroyed an opponent but I would have to be ahead to apply the pressure and hope they couldn't tap it down. In that scenario I felt like anything could apply the same pressure, i.e. Captain.
However, the Captain does only what I said which is steal games. I would have to have it on turn 2/3 in order to get them. Any other time and the captain was a partially dead draw. Not to mention Captain was terrible against R/G monsters, G devotion, Black Devotion, and Blue Devotion. It really only has value against Control and partially RDW. The more that I studied Obzedat in the meta the more it seemed awful. You don't really want to have to blink a blocker in the RDW matchup, or any devotion matchup, just to get the value from it. Control decks have answers to it (esper has downfalls and U/W has some stuff). It just isn't that strong right now in my opinion. The interaction with the Whip was cute but that was about all it was. The Whip didn't do much of anything else. Whipping back a Reckoner was so lackluster since almost anyone would just take the 3. I gain 3 life but in most match ups that was small potatoes. And it didn't get much better from there. There weren't many creatures that warranted having the whip in the deck once I decided that Obzedat wasn't where I wanted to be.
Starting with the Sideboard. I absolutely hated Sin Collector because most of the time he wiffed or wasn't able to take what I wanted. He was also not a very good top deck. So I removed him for Duress which I could cast on T1 or use in conjunction with a threat on the same turn, clearing a way for my threat as opposed to doing it a turn early. It also was able to take Planeswalkers which was huge. But the problem was that it was a sideboard spot devoted to just control. Which I'm fine with but I ended up over sideboarding for the control matchup since most of my sideboard was devoted to it. Not a very good strategy. This informed my transformations to the deck later. I cut down on Underworlds because I put some Read the Bones in the main, see below.
In terms of the mainboard, first is the aforementioned Read the Bones. I put them in the deck because I needed more consistent draws. Getting what I need now as opposed to hoping I draw it. It has proved to be really good at advancing my strategy depending on what I'm playing against. It lets me put Chain to the Rocks to the bottom when I'm facing control and it helps me find Elspeth right when I needed it against devotion. I cut down on Merciless Eviction because Elspeth could do most of what I wanted at the same price. Not to mention it was a terrible early draw and while it still has uses against control, it just wasn't what I wanted there. I increased the Keyrune count because it is insane. It really can put pressure on Control where their only answers are D-Spheres and Downfalls. It also protected me against Devour Flesh and was an all-star against aggro with its first strike. The fact that it couldn't be Ultimate Priced or Doom Bladed is huge. It also finds me the mana I need for the hungry curve. Running only 25 land felt right and Keyrunes helped that immensely. In taking out the Obzedat/Whip combo, I knew I needed more finishers and ways to pressure control. Therefore I opted to add more Stormbreath Dragons. The montrous is great and the haste is even better. The pro-white is really only relevant against mono-white and white weenie decks. But I already crushed them with Blood Barons, so Dragon wasn't really a consideration there.
Unfortunately my testing with this deck showed me that Stormbreath isn't alllllll that great. I never really wanted 3 copies against control since I don't want to clutter the board giving them a nice X for 1 with Supreme Verdict. By itself control matchups didn't care about it all that much. And the more I played, it was obvious that Blood Baron was getting the same treatment. They were able to out race both or remove them. Their ability to pressure me while ignoring my threats was why I was struggling against them. This is partly because 4 damage isn't that much pressure considering the life they can gain. Waiting for the Sphinxes Revelation is also easy when it is just 4 damage a turn. In addition they don't care about a 3/3 bear for 3 (i.e. Reckoner). But I was convinced that Reckoner was great against R/G monsters, Devotion decks and Aggro. So it had to stay there, right? Well I was just assuming without actually testing. When I looked at those matchups with Reckoner I realized that most of those decks ignored it, outright killed it with something that wouldn't disrupt their plan, kill it before it could disrupt their plan, or just played around it. Even still the things that were doing the most work in those matchups were my removal and finishers, not the Reckoners. I would almost always rather play my keyrune to advance my board and put out finishers a turn early or use the keyrune to similarly defend. It caused the same paused reaction whenever I was about to be attacked and dodged more removal. Given my estimations in control matchups and how the reckoner fit in the meta, the deck evolved to this
Now we are starting to see some drastic changes. Where to begin. I wanted more pressure and while I tried out Desecration Demon it was usually tapped down by mana dorks, Elspeth tokens, things unessential to the ultimate swing. The problem was that I wanted it for defensive pressure. I wanted to be able to go offensive once I had settled the board but still be able to hold me down for a turn or two. Enter Alms Beast. I know there has been discussion here about it but I think it is really superior to Desecration Demon in what I wanted it to do. The life gain it presents is irrelevant to me. I can get back through that. The ability to successfully block Ruric Thar, get around Ultimate Price, Doom Blade, present a 3 turn clock to control decks and help stall aggro decks was invaluable. I have been debating switching it to Ember Swallower but the mana would have to be changed heavily. I think I would rather have Alms Beast for the removal dodging and mana consistency.
Next you might see the Orzhov Keyrune and think I'm nuts. Well I probably am, but not for that reason. The Orzhov keyrune does the same thing that Rakdos keyrune does for me EXCEPT I can turn three drop keyrune and play chained to the rocks. Which is a huge play. The life gain is semi-relevant and aggro decks aren't really happy to see it. It dodges their mizziums so it usually has to be a block and burn situation (which I am completely fine with).
Yea, I moved Reckoners to the Sideboard. Complete sacrilege. It comes in against R/G monsters, deovtion, and aggro, just because it CAN do work there, but it is only because it does more work than thoughtseize. I haven't missed it in the main and am happy I made the switch. I can go more in depth if someone wants.
I put in 2 Assemble the Legion to replace the finishers I took out in Blood Barons and Stormbreaths. The switch has improved my game 1 against control two-fold. Sometimes they have no answer to it but really it just does the same work that a Blood Baron or Stormbreath does without having to worry about all removal. The only thing is Detention Sphere and that means that I don't have to worry about my Rakdos Keyrunes being D-Sphered nor do I have to worry about my Elspeth being D-SPhered. Basically I am attacking the weakest part of the control deck which their ability to deal with “non-doom bladable” things. They only have 4 D-Spheres and they better draw them all. The switch to Assemble didn't affect my other matchups that much. Mono-black can't do anything about it, plus it laughs at Desecration Demon. Mono Blue can bounce it all but other than that they are also in trouble. It doesn't shine against aggro but if I can land it and give it some time (which with all the removal and keyrunes I usually can), then it is almost unbeatable for them. That is the same with G/R monsters except I am usually afforded more time there.
Having 1-ofs in Stormbreath and Blood Baron is still fine so I can mise out games. I still have a Blood Baron in the side for mono-black and mono-white. It might not be correct as I'll discuss with my thoughts on future evolutions.
The last thing is putting in 2 toil//trouble. It is a finisher against control. If their life is within 4 points of the number of cards in their hand, then it can kill them right there. Sphinx won't save them (unless they unload it for 0 to get rid of a card) since it will just negate the life gain with damage. It can also be used as a psuedo-read the bones. It has been amazing and almost want more except that read the bones is disgusting so I can't see myself ever dropping below 2 read the bones. The 2/2 split might change but only in terms of increasing one or the other. I think 2/2 is just right and won't be going less than that for either. I doubt I'll increase either as well.
Quick hits: Moving Elspeth up to 3 has been great. I needed more finishers and Elspeth is just crazy against a plethora of decks. Downfall needs to be at 4 for me because of the nature of how I'm playing this deck. I'm just controlling the board until I get a finisher down. Downfall does it better than any other spell in my opinion. Chained to the Rocks is also great as a cheap removal spell. I doubt anyone is running Peak Eruption, but if they are then good job, you got me. I'm preboarded for control with Rakdos's Return in the main. The switch is usually Merciless Eviction for it when I play any other deck. I am moved that way because Rakdos's return is still great against most other decks. Even as a fireball. Whereas Eviction is sometimes a miss (mostly against control). I would just rather try to steal game 1 there.
On some exclusions that are popular in other decks. I like Mizzium Mortars but I would rather have straight removal in Chained to the Rocks. I think if I ever saw a move to more aggro and more Peak Eruption, I would instantly changed Chained for Mizzium. I would like to add Warleaders for the healing (since I can self-inflict a lot of damage), but I just don't know where to put it. Again I would rather have straight removal, but I do like Warleaders. I don't like Aurelia at all. I would almost always rather have an Elspeth. Plus I don't have enough threat density to warrant an Aurelia. Usually she is just untapping herself to attack again, not really great.
How I sideboard currently:
Control:
-3 Chain
-1 Orzhov Keyrune
-4 Dreadbore
+3 Pithing Needle
+3 Glare of Heresy
+1 Slaughter Games
+1 Blood Baron
R/G Monsters and Green Devotion really:
-4 Thoughtseize
-2 Rakdos's Return
-1 Orzhov Keyrune
+2 Reckoner
+2 Merciless Eviction
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Anger or Slaughter Games or Blood Baron. You pick. None are really that stellar here, maybe just keep the Keyrune in? All kind of suck
Thoughts for what I might want to do going forward.
First I want to mention my weaknesses. I know my mono-blue strategy is weak, but I'm not worried about that match-up as much. I still think that it is winnable without having to change too much. Pithing needles might want to go in, but I'm not sure. I know I'm weak against Blood Barons, but against that is just something I am able to live with. I don't see many of them, and I still have outs (i.e. stormbreath, elspeth). Other than that I don't find too many weaknesses. I think control is still weak, but is much more even with this list. I have been performing well against different versions of Esper Control. I am also straight out ignoring Burning Earth. If it gets me, so be it. But I'm not going to devote a sideboard slot(s) (wear//tear) to beating it. It is something I need to figure out, but I haven't gotten to that point yet. I also know that I'm bad with not being able to recoup life after self-inflicting some wounds.
With my weaknesses in mind. I really only think I can address the last one at the moment. I'm considering something like the following:
I would want the whips to address my self-inflicted wounds. The added Alms Beast would be to get that extra value out of the whip with more life gained. The whip also interacts with Shadowborn Demon favorably, being able to kill two things. Shadowborn demon might seem bad since I would have to sac something every turn but Assemble and Elspeth take care of that problem nicely. The sideboard makes me skiddish. I really love Pithing Needle in this meta and running less than 3 makes me nervous. Glare of Heresy is for Elspeth which is neigh unbeatable. I mean I can still attack through her tokens or kill her with dreadbore and downfall but still glare is much more efficient while providing extra utility against detention sphere and assemble the legion. The question is how badly I want Blood Barons and then if I would cut them completely for more Needles and Heresy. I don't think that Blood Baron is that good in this meta and what I miss with him I make up for with other cards (assemble is still unbeatable for mono black and aggro can't really swing through assemble). I could also use those spots that are freed up with Blood Baron for Wear//Tear and that would solve the aforementioned problems with enchantments. But I lose the utility that Glare brings. If they don't draw Assemble or D-sphere, then wear//tear is a dead card in my hand. Whereas Glare can kill whatever else they play. Something to test and consider I suppose.
Anyway, I wrote a lot here. Sorry for any spelling or formatting errors. I will fix those as I read it again after I've posted.
Please share your thoughts on this, good or bad. And thanks for reading if you did
Why is everyone all of a sudden cutting BBoV? It's the best card against mono-B (aside from Assemble the Legion, which isn't in everyone's list), and control has very few outs to it.
Why is everyone all of a sudden cutting BBoV? It's the best card against mono-B (aside from Assemble the Legion, which isn't in everyone's lost), and control has very few outs to it.
He is very good against mono-black but I'm not sure that he really ups your win % against that deck that much. I think BBoV only presents diminishing returns there since I think mono-black is pretty winable without him. The things you will lose to against mono-black BBoV wouldn't necessarily help you against (hard to race Pack Rat with BBoV if you didn't have timely removal for it, hard to stop Grey Merchant from bowling you over with BBoV). For example, I beat a mono-black deck on a mull to 4, on the play, where they didn't mull at all AND thoughtseized me twice in the first 4 turns. To be fair I ran pretty hot, but still that is pretty sick and made me think that the matchup is easily winnable by the nature of my deck.
Also I think that control has more outs than you are giving them credit for. Supreme Verdicts, Elspeth, Devour Flesh (if esper), Celestial Flare, Countering it, Thoughtseizing it, or just plain out racing it with Aetherling and Sphinxes or stalling with their own Blood Baron (if esper). No they aren't going to have all of those things but I think they have efficient ways of dealing with BBoV. I've played it against Control quite a bit and while it seems like it would be an allstar it really didn't present the threat that I needed to put pressure on them.
In terms of cutting it, I think that in my deck I would need that spot that BBoV takes up for a finisher and a 4/4 lifelink for 5 mana is just not fitting that role. It doesn't create the type of board presence you want from a finisher. The pro-black and pro-white is good if you are playing a deck with those colors but if you are not then it is just underwhelming. For example it is pretty bad against R/G monsters, green devotion, and blue devotion. It also really isn't the end-all-be-all against red decks either since they usually have mortars somewhere or can double burn it (that is admittedly still nice). In the instances where BBoV overtakes RDW or any of those other decks, I think that any other card with similar power could do the same. So it isn't distinct to BBoV's ability. Which to me means that I would rather have something that is better against those matchups mentioned and better against control.
Those are just my two cents though. I think I might be in the minority about BBoV as well.
I run 3 Blood Baron main and 1 side. Blood Baron is a card that is very good against some decks and pretty terrible against others. So, while I dont understand completely cutting it from the 75, if youre constantly playing Green, Red, and Blue decks I completely understand why you would play something else over it main.
This deck, like most in the format, suffer pretty bad from poor manabase issues until we get the remaining scry lands. Most builds are focusing heavy red from Anger, Stormbreath, and Chained to the Rocks, which makes a 3 drop double BB incredibly hard to reliably cast. If though youre playing a black based build with Desecration Demon, Hero's Downfall, and Whip of Erebos I can totally get behind running Lifebane Zombie.
so far in the recent decks thats been posted, lifebane seems to have been cut from the 75 totally, any reason why or is it just a meta call?
There was some discussion about lifebane in the first 50 posts here I think, if I remember correctly. What it came down to then, which I still agree with, is that it really isn't that good at doing what you want it to. There are times when it is going to blow your opponent out but that is only in the first 3-5 turns. After turn 5 they will have cast any creature they have in there hand (for the most part). I can't think of many circumstances where turn 6 or 7 they are still holding a creature unless they are mana screwed (in which case you should be beating them anyway) or they have some behemoth that has an ETB trigger (i.e. Sylvan Primordial ). So in that respect it is pretty bad topdeck as it will only be a 3/1 intimidate for 3.
Furthermore, even if you do cast it in T3-5 you still might not hit something. It depends on what you are playing it against. G/R monsters has a lot of PWs but beyond the 9-ish that they play it is all creatures so you'll probably get them there unless they are flush with Stormbreaths. If it is GW, then your chances are slightly worse between Ajani, selesnya charm, advent of the wurm, rootborn defenses, and (some people are still playing) call of the conclave. If you want to rip BBoVs from control players, then I don't think that would work out very well.
What it comes down to is that 3 power for 3 mana (when it doesn't hit anything) is just ok. My deck isn't that kind of deck. I think that if your WRB list is more aggro oriented, then it would fit right in. But in the end if it is by itself it is a 7 turn clock and most decks will either be able to out race it if it is by itself, kill it, or ignore it.
But when it hits it is awesome. The problem is that it is just too inconsistent. That plus there aren't that many decks that you are going to bring it in against. I would rather live with that match up by having Glares for white creatures and just kill all green creatures.
Anyway that is why I have stayed away from it. I think the consensus is the somewhat like my opinion but I'm not sure.
I run 3 Blood Baron main and 1 side. Blood Baron is a card that is very good against some decks and pretty terrible against others. So, while I dont understand completely cutting it from the 75, if youre constantly playing Green, Red, and Blue decks I completely understand why you would play something else over it main.
Yea I understand that. I'm not sure if I want to cut it from the 75 completely yet. It is a good card but I have been impressed at how my deck is performing without it. Causing me to change my opinion of it. I think the only deck it really shines against is mono-black, but still I'm not sure that it improves that match-up by anything more than a percent or two. I could be wrong about that however.
This deck, like most in the format, suffer pretty bad from poor manabase issues until we get the remaining scry lands. Most builds are focusing heavy red from Anger, Stormbreath, and Chained to the Rocks, which makes a 3 drop double BB incredibly hard to reliably cast. If though youre playing a black based build with Desecration Demon, Hero's Downfall, and Whip of Erebos I can totally get behind running Lifebane Zombie.
This is the other reason that some people are not playing Lifebane. It can easily be done. I was running Precinct Captains at one time and semi-consistently casting them on T2. I also tried out Frostburn Weirds to try and stave off aggro while being given the option to pressure control. I made the mana base to be more centered towards red and it worked out alright. I think you can make the mana base centered towards any of the colors and if you were intent on running the Zombie, then it can be done.
I don't know about everyone else but I'm running Assemble the Legion. I think that esper control will stick with BBoV but in my playtest groupthe esper players have moved them to the sideboard. There are just too many decks that it is bad against and when you only have a few finishers that you are counting on to end the game for you, BBoV just doesn't do it solo.
The esper control players in my group are using more Elspeth and removal in place of any BBoVs in the main. And they usually only bring in BBoV against WBR, mono black and White Weenies.
Edit- I should also mention that I'm considering having Shadowborn Demon in the main as well. Debating/Testing that. It would semi-replace BBoV in terms of CC and role as a finisher
so far in the recent decks thats been posted, lifebane seems to have been cut from the 75 totally, any reason why or is it just a meta call?
Your exactly right in this regard. Usually this and sin collector are meta calls and can give your deck that better game 1 win percentage in the right meta. That top 16 deck was a good example of this. He anticipated that Esper Humans and white weenie decks were going to be big in that tourney and planned for it.
As far as the 5 drop discussion goes, it came down to wanting to cut redundant beaters for more efficient cards. Obzedat to me is better with a proper curve. 1 drops all the way into him. Baron actually stays on the field to block and stabilize so he's a little better than obzedat in creature light midrange builds. Obzedat is still in the side for me, it's just Baron and Dragon seem to close games better overall.
I plan on taking the following (a modification to the SCG top 16) to the Vancouver GP in a couple of weeks. Just wondering how this deck would fair in the current meta, mono black, mono blue, monsters, etc.
I haven't had a chance to play this at any FNM's, but have tested a bit online. I've been having fairly good results unless I get flooded or mana screwed.
Any recommendations? Especially the sideboard.
And I haven't found anything in this thread (not that I looked hard), but what are the better cards in WBR to be sideboarding against the current meta? What would be the sideboarding strategy?
I plan on taking the following (a modification to the SCG top 16) to the Vancouver GP in a couple of weeks. Just wondering how this deck would fair in the current meta, mono black, mono blue, monsters, etc.
I haven't had a chance to play this at any FNM's, but have tested a bit online. I've been having fairly good results unless I get flooded or mana screwed.
Any recommendations? Especially the sideboard.
And I haven't found anything in this thread (not that I looked hard), but what are the better cards in WBR to be sideboarding against the current meta? What would be the sideboarding strategy?
I have never been a fan of Anger of the Gods in the main board and I think that in the current meta it is even more out of place there. It is just a dead draw against so many decks that I really can't recommend it in the main. That is unless you know, or are making a calculated bet, that it is going to be mostly aggro. Even then, I think that our G1 matchup against aggro is still ok, especially if you are running other types of catch all removal (downfalls, dreadbores, etc) as well as reckoners.
I'm also not a huge fan of sin collector (main or side) but I think that is a meta and pilot call. It will often whiff after the first 6ish turns, but it can sometimes get there.
I'm also not a fan of Chandra, just as a card in general. Though I think some people have had success with her.
I wrote up on page 154 how my deck as evolved from 4 months ago til now. I discuss various cards in there and towards the end of my post (which is fairly lengthy, sorry!) I discuss my sideboarding strategy. I've also talked (recently, in the past 5 posts or so) my dislike for lifebane zombie in general.
However if you would like me to go more in depth after reading my post, or if you would like specific suggestions about your planned sideboard as it is, then I'd be happy to reply.
Yeah, I dont understand Chaandra in this deck either. While its draw a card ability is certainly good, youre never going to even try to ultimate it, and unless youre at 7 mana already youre waiting a turn to actually draw too. I would recommend swapping the Chaandras out for Read the Bones. I would also cut the Plains for another mountain, then swap the Helix's for 2 more Chained to the Rocks.
My opinion on Boros Reckoner is that Alms Beast is just better in this deck. We have alot of hard removal and Anger. It is very easy to clear the board and a 6/6 hits twice as hard as a 3/3. The lifegain is just not relevant for this deck.
As for sideboard for your deck I would:
1 Sin Collector
3 Lifebane Zombie
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Rakdos Return
3 Slaughter Games
1 Ultimate Price
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Pithing Needle
Mono Black is so prevalent right now, I would be looking at Stormbreath Dragons with Whip over Obzedat with Whip, mainly because it keeps them busy for 2 turns during combat where Obzedat does not get that initial jump on keeping them busy.
I also favor Assemble the Legion over Blood Baron of Vizkopa, but to be honest, I like them both right now.
I forgot 2 pithing needles thus putting useless 2 Illness instead making my sideboard 15
Also couldn't find Orzhov Keyrune, definitely replacing 1 or 2 Rakdos ones, been so many times wanted to cast chain after keyrune on turn 3/4.
vs White Weenie 2-1
Game 1: lost quite fast to double mutavault, cleared other creatures and left with enough dreadbores/chains/angers stuck in hand
Game 2: sided in Glares, another Anger, and Breaths. Won with Chandra although he dropped 3 Fiendslayer Paladin in a row
during sideboard he complains about how hard it is to deal with chandra
I think I should side in some wear//tear cause I saw Blind Obedience and Spear of Heliod
Game 3: won with Assemble while locking him with double Fury on upkeep
vs RDW 2-0
Game 1: Won with keyrune beatdowns after exhausting his resources via return for 3 after anger
Game 2: he brought in Ratchet Bombs for my chains, I brought in angers and breaths for phoenix, won with assemble again locking him from playing ratchet bomb with upkeep fury
vs MonoGreen 2-1
Game 1: Removing all his creatures, win by beats from Dragon although he has a random fog
Game 2: He brought in 2 Plummet for Dragon (LOL) and stuck in his hand forever lost to Nylea and Beasts from Primeval Bounty
Game 3: He didn't remove the Plummet, I brought in Tear for his enchantments. Win via Assemble after I removed all his threats. Afterwards he said that Plummet always useless in his hand, I said that I have only 1 Dragon, haha.
vs MonoBlack 2-0
Game 1: Resolved turn 4 Aseemble, easy win soon after
Game 2: Resolved another turn 4 Aseemble, Slaughtering his merchant, he got no way to gain life, he got 2 of his mutavaults removed by anger after baiting with Magma Jet on Pack Rat
Round 5: ID
Top16 vs Jund 2-0
Game1: got 4 dorks via Anger, emptied his hand after with Rakdos' Return won shortly after with keyrune hits and some burn
Game2: Assemble kept non trample creatures at bay. Won with those tokens afterwards.
Top8 vs MonoBlack 2-1
Game1: 1st turn Thoughtseize taking my Assemble won via big fireball Fury-Return combo, finished with Helix.
Game2: He opened with Thoughtseize, Duress, another Thoughtseize beatdown with double mutavault
Game3: 3 games in a row he opened with Thoughtseize and Mutavault Kept up on removal via Chandra netting Chained and Dreadbore before killed, ended when he left with 2 cards in hand 6 lifes I have 6 lands a keyrune a dragon in play and some removals in hand as usual. Could've attacked with both, or attack with dragon and monstrosity, but if he has removal he will survive a turn anyways, so I just attack with the dragon, he took in and I pass priority and he took the damage. During his upkeep I monstrosity the dragon for 2 damage (at least taking his mana for that turn if he did have removal)
Top4 vs MonoBlack 0-2 (the guy from R4)
Game 1: Lost to Triple Underworld Connection, he took my Toil//Trouble when I had lethal with thoughtseize and drew 2 merchants. Afterwards I had 2 hp left, he got 8 left, 2 demons, I Returned for 10, he devoured 1 of his Demon and I Dreadbore the other. Then he topdecked Gray Merchant of Asphodel (I had Aurelia's Fury on my topdeck, his only way out was that merchant)
Game 2: He opened with Thoughtseize, soon after Duress, and another Thoughtseize leaving me with only Wear//Tear in my hand, kept up with some Toil and Read the Bones but he learned his lesson from last round and kept his Parikka' Cure for my keyrunes.
Lesson from the Day:
Not a bad result with a deck that didn't get properly tested, perhaps I got lucky and didn't face other Control Decks.
Definitely wants my Pithing Needle for Mutavault. Or Remove some Dreadbores/Chains/Ulti Price and add some Lightning Strike (Doom Blade is bad vs Nightveil Spectre so I don't want it)
Almost all games vs MonoB I slaughtered their Gray Merchant of Asphodel since that's the only card that give em some reach and out of nowhere as well.
My opinion on Boros Reckoner is that Alms Beast is just better in this deck. We have alot of hard removal and Anger. It is very easy to clear the board and a 6/6 hits twice as hard as a 3/3. The lifegain is just not relevant for this deck.
I am anticipating more people trying to jam G/W with BotG release, so I think Reckoner gets better as in my experience I find he is good at stalling fatties like Polukranos, Wurm tokens, and large VoR tokens and Experiment Ones until you can get Stormbreath online (which along with BBoV and Aurelia is a house in this matchup since they have very little way to deal with flyers and they only have Polukranos, Satyr, and Wurm tokens to block Baron).
*Warning -- Wall of Text: Proceed at your own risk...*
I haven't posted on this thread ina while, but I've continued to follow it...
Deep down I still believe that these 3 colors has access to all the tools to dominate the format.
I am very excited for a few of the new cards coming. (Not aloud to talk about them yet...)
With that being said, although I have been piloting a traditional UB Control list to some great success lately, I have still not been able to give up on this deck and keep refining it.
I'm very impartial to one of the older lists and haven't deviated much from it...
This could be a Good thing seeing how a lot have moved on from a bunch of the card choices, this could also be a bad thing as being stuck in the past isn't innovative.
Although I am still impartial to the older style lists, that doesn't mean I've been living under a rock and haven't been playing magic and seeing what the meta is, also considering the meta at my shop.
With that being said though, here's the list I'm taking for a test run tonight at TNM.
About my list: A Better Understanding -- So I feel like after following the thread for awhile and staying silent, and mixing and matching a bunch of things.
Also playing STD a lot on Tue/Fri and any times in between. Playtesting this list any chance I get. I feel like I have a better understanding at what this deck is needing to do.
The reason I think this deck is amazing is because of the THREATS it packs. Each of the main threats has a unique challenge in answering it.
My earlier list ran Rakdos's Return and I really thought that it was needed and refused to examine lists without it.
However; I realized this deck is about dropping threats... If you're not dropping threats, then you need to be killing their threats, killing their hand, or digging for threats.
Rakdos's Return did none of those things... it was trying to "Be A Threat" or trying to "Protect Threats" and doing neither of those 2 things well.
I feel like the Priorities of this deck should be: 1.) Be a Threat! Not just any big hulking creature, but a creature that has an inherent challenge to the kinds of removal being run. 2.) Protect your Threats! Your whole deck can't be filled with Threats, that wouldn't be optimal. So then the rest of the deck should be ways of dealing with your opponent while protecting your threats. Discard 3.) Find your Threats! That leaves the rest to dig those threats up when you're ready.
The underlying theme to this is, Threats. These 3 colors have access to the best challenging to deal with creatures in the Format. All on their own in various 2 color decks, or mono colored decks, yes they are still hard to deal with but easier in those narrowed down lists. In our deck, we're packing all these hard to deal with creatures in 1 deck, combined together it creates real problems for your opponents, but only if you get a chance to play them.
So I made a few minor adjustments from the list, focused more on the threats, protecting the threats, trying to keep the board clear for your threats, or digging for those threats.
I remember playing the older versions and it drove me crazy how some games it would dominate, while others you just drew the wrong half of your deck.
With that being said, let's examine the threats that I have gone to... 1.) Aurelia -- I'm still sold and high on Aurelia. I've played with her enough now since way back when she was first suggested and just love how she can win games out of nowhere, even win games that this deck had no business in winning. I can't count how many times I may have been counted out, or in a bad position and Aurelia just turns up the heat and pushes the deck over the edge. Shes been Fantastic!
2.) Blood Baron of Vizkopa -- Not sure why people are considering cutting this, I still think it's one of the more effective 5 Drops for our deck. It's solid in a lot of matchups.
3.) Erebos -- This is a strange one I admit... Erebos in the main?? To be honest it has more to do with his Draw/Dig potential in stalemate types of games then it has about his devotion or the size of the creature. He is still fairly easy to activate for finishes though. I didn't want to run 2 Read the Bones as that card is great, it has its merit, but I just don't think more then 1 is needed or even good.
4.) Boros Reckoner -- A lot of people been discussing cutting him, and I've seen a lot of lists dropping the numbers. I still think this is one of the most effective creatures when dealing with aggro we have. It stalls aggro decks long enough to be picky and choosy on what to use your removal on. It even can stall long enough for you to dig for some removal. I get that it isn't effective VS Mono Black or most control decks as it'll just get killed instantly, but if you consider all the other threats in the deck, and the Unique challenges that the 5 CMC Threats bring to the table on trying to kill them, if they're killing Reckoner with a Devour Flesh or a Doom Blade or anything else, that's one less removal spell they have for the finishers. With the amount of Discard in the deck, they'll be forced to answer Reckoner early.
5.) Sin Collector -- The thing I love about Sin Collector is VS a lot of decks it'll pick off Removal spells that can create problems later when you drop your other bombs. If all they have is a Devour Flesh in their hand with Hero's Downfall/Ultimate Price/Doom Blade, pick off the Devour and proceed to drop Blood Baron. Or in the case of Obzedat, pick off the Downfall and drop Obzedat. On top of picking off Removal, you get extra peeks at your opponents hand, having that information is very helpful and very valuable. Does Sin Collector blank? Sure... That's what the early Thoughtseize is for, Thoughtseize, see their hand, pick any non land card. If you see other removal in there, Sin Collector turn 3 to pull it and pave the way for the rest of the deck to shine.
6.) Obzedat -- Another creature that I have liked since we started adding it in the beginning. Another creature that has seemed to fall out of favor lately. I don't know why, I can't even speculate as to why. Obzedat is amazing with Whip, everybody knows that. The thing that I still love about Obzedat, is just like the rest of the creature lineup, he has his own very real challenges to kill it. From top to bottom, Reckoner isn't easy to deal with unless you're packing Kill Cards, a lot of decks do. If you're killing Reckoner, and having your hand disrupted, then it's easy to assume that it'll be even that much harder to answer a Blinking Obzedat, or a Pro White/Black Baron, or a Hastey Aurelia, or an Indestructable Erebos.
7.) Lifebane Zombie -- This is merely a meta call, a lot of the aggro decks at my shop are Green, White aggro. Or RG Monsters and the like. Not to mention VS UW Control (Another big one at my shop) it's a 3/1 Intimidator and can become a issue if not dealt with. Sure it gets sided out more then anything, but I like it's presence in the main as a 2 of, gives me additional peeks at my opponents hand without having to spend a Sin Collector or a Thoughtseize and possibly blanking on it.
A few other card choices that I have back in my list... Magma Jet -- I know it's not the greatest kill card, it only does 2 damage. But if you consider that it kills early Pack Rats, kills Mana Dorks from GR Monsters, and it puts in Work VS Jace and other problem cards, it's still a pretty effective card. Bonus, it helps you dig through your deck to find more removal, protection, threats.
Read the Bones -- A single Read the Bones seems odd, but what I intend it for is just to be digging for threats, removal, protection. At times the deck will slow down, stall, and so it's nice to DIG and then DRAW. I don't want to fill my deck with a play set of these, as it can be a bad card VS a lot of matchups, but to top deck a Read the Bones in a Mid/Late game when I need to stick a threat, this isn't a terrible card. Granted, I would rather the threat itself, but if I don't get the threat, I'll dig for one. It's effective for what I intended to use it for.
I think everything else in the main can explain itself...
Sideboard notes...
These plans are a rough sketch of what I'm using for tonight... subject to change a bit.
VS UW/x Control:
-4 Magma Jet
-2 Chained to the Rocks
-1 Read the Bones
-1 Dreadbore
+1 Sin Collector
+2 Duress
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Underworld Connections
+1 Glare of Heresy
The thought process is to keep all... ALL of the creatures in VS them. You want a strong early game, that's the disruption package. If I stick Lifebane Zombie, I know it'll blank but it's extra peeks at my opponents hand. See a Revelations, Sin Collector it. Lifebane then becomes a Intimidator 3/1 that puts in quick work and needs to be answered. The same goes for Reckoner. A lot of people would probably side out Reckoner and I wouldn't say that's wrong. Going with what I made the priorities of the deck earlier, it's about the Threats and each of them having unique challenges. So why remove ANY of the threats making it easier for my opponent to pick and choose what he answers with his tools. I intend to leave it all out there... I believe the combination of all these creatures working together is a problem for most opponents. Don't overextend, each of these creatures puts in work by themselves, so you don't walk into a Verdict. Glare is for Elspeth or Detention Sphere. Connections is for additional Draw obviously... I think the rest of the options speak for themselves.
VS MBD:
-2 Lifebane Zombie
-1 Aurelia, the Warleader
-1 Whip of Erebos
+2 Assemble the Legion
+2 Wear//Tear
Again, the theme of my post is Threats. So I'll be taking out Lifebane as it's not very threatening to Mono Black, taking out Aurelia (Not sure why, I like it, but I feel more often then not they'll probably have the removal to deal with her before trigger.) I'll be bringing in another very tough to deal with threat in Assemble the Legion for Mono Black. Sure they have Illness in the Ranks, but I have Wear//Tear to work on that. I also have the Thoughtseize to rip away Illness. Assemble the Legion is just another hard to deal with Threat, to go along with the rest of the hard to deal with Threats for them. I have zero concern if they do successfully answer Assemble because I left in ALL the other threats.
VS GR Monsters or most other Aggro:
-1 Sin Collector
-1 Erebos, God of the Dead
-1 Read the Bones
+2 Doom Blade
+1 Lifebane Zombie
VS Non Black Aggro, GR, GW, Mono Green, Mono White, etc.. etc.. Lifebane is very effective still VS them. Picking off their BIGs out of their hand, while Jet's kill the mana dorks so they don't get to cast them anyways. Doom Blades obviously for extra kill support. I still again like Sin Collector as a lot of those decks do carry shenanigans. GR Monsters packs Mortars, RW packs Boros Charms. There's something to hit with all those decks... Siding out 1 Sin Collector means I keep 2 in the main, it's merely a card I would play say Turn 4 before the turn I plan on dropping a Baron for example to check for Mortars and pull it.
Again, the underlying theme, I kept all the creature threats.
These are the big matchups at my local shop... but I think that sideboard can mix and match a bit for other oddities.
So there it is folks, if you stuck around and read the Wall O' Text, thanks, give me your feedback.
Assuming you are running Duress in the side mainly for UWx control I have found Slaughter Games to be the best card in that matchup. In most builds the only cards we care about are Sphinx's Revelation, Elixir or Immortality, and Aetherling. With 4 thoughtseize and 4 Sin Collector alot of times knowing their hand, Slaughter Games is even able to put them down a card too. Personally I dont like Underworld Connections, and would swap the Duress and either one Connections or Assemble for 3 Slaughter Games.
I would also make room in the side for a second whip, in the matchups you want to lean on Sin Collectors and Lifebane Zombie its good enough to warrant a second copy.
You already addressed Erebos, I would play a second read the bones (and do) personally, but its clear youve already consider that and decided against.
And I appreciate the guildgates. Its hard to believe how many people completely ignore how important a good manabase is. With the new Scry land it'll obviously look alot better, but I can appreciate that you have decide not to live in magical christmas land!
Lost to RG
Lost to Mirror match!!!!
Lost to RG
Beat UG flash
Beat UW control
Beat RG
Beat GW aggro
Beat mono black
Lost UW control
I knew my RG matchup was bad and shouldve addressed it before hand
Lost to obzedat in the mirror
Lost to UW bc he drew 4 running counters after i emptied his hand and killed his elspeth(killed by 3 soldiers)
I'm currently running 2 SB Duress that I'm looking at cutting since I only side them vs. control, especially since they've cut back on actual win conditions. I already bring in another 9 cards along with skewing my main to have a slightly better game 1 against them.
I already have a fairly decent matchup against aggro outside of the BTE nut draw, but what are people's thoughts on Ratchet Bomb? Kills Pack Rats, Master of Wave tokens, and a variety of stuff from G/W (Advent, Elementals, etc.), along with the occasional D Sphere or other random non-creature permanent.
Another option is Lifebane Zombie for help against G/R Monsters and what I anticipate will be an uptick in G/W/x, along with being an additional out to opposing BBoV.
Assuming you are running Duress in the side mainly for UWx control I have found Slaughter Games to be the best card in that matchup. In most builds the only cards we care about are Sphinx's Revelation, Elixir or Immortality, and Aetherling. With 4 thoughtseize and 4 Sin Collector alot of times knowing their hand, Slaughter Games is even able to put them down a card too. Personally I dont like Underworld Connections, and would swap the Duress and either one Connections or Assemble for 3 Slaughter Games.
You got it right, Duress is for UWR, UW Control, and Esper control matchups that I have to face on any given Friday.
I do like Slaughter Games, I used to run it but it went out of favor with me and others.
You might be right that it should come back, especially with all the peeks at my opponents hand that I get, I'll def give it a try.
I don't know that I want 3 Slaughter Games tho, 3 seems a bit much, but I will try it.
I would also make room in the side for a second whip, in the matchups you want to lean on Sin Collectors and Lifebane Zombie its good enough to warrant a second copy.
And I appreciate the guildgates. Its hard to believe how many people completely ignore how important a good manabase is. With the new Scry land it'll obviously look alot better, but I can appreciate that you have decide not to live in magical christmas land!
Oh I can't wait for Temple of Malice!!!!
I feel like I MUST run Magma Jets to help smooth out the deck and help dig through the deck to get what I need.
Adding this SCRY Land might mean I could dump the Jets and be ok.
I'm considering dumping Jets anyways in favor of more RtB, we shall see.
As for my outcome on Tuesday, it turned out not so great Record wise.
I was encouraged by the test run, I felt a lot of what I said and my perspective on this deck was correct and justified.
Just gotta refine some things and even look at some of the new Born of the Gods cards to help it out some.
Last FNM was the first time I played Aurelia and was sold immediately. I did have 2 Elspeths and 2 Keyrunes with 25 land. Im dropping all 4, for 2 Desecration Demons, a 4th Anger of the Gods, and a Rakdos Return main. The last few weeks I have smashed good players playing all sorts of control, Mono black, mono blue, GR, white aggro, junk, golgari, but every week atleast once an FNM my deck just takes a match off and I lose to Festering Newt, or Worldspine Wurm. Despite the maddening frustration I am very pleased with the deck. I have decided I need to drop the curve though to try and eliminate the (mostly mana) inconsistencies, which are costing me far too many matchups.
As for Magma Jet I have been playing 4 for a while and assume its the correct number even with the extra scry lands. We'll see though.
Wear / Tear should prob just be Revoke Existence at this point. I think I would also replace Ultimate Price with Hero's Downfall. Not a fan of Alms Beast (I'd prefer Reckoner in that slot or maxing out on Demons since you're running the full 4 Angers), but to each their own.
Played last night and top 8ed using whip+obzedat+aurelia. Firstly, I'll say I got lucky since a guy that beat me decided to give me the win since he had to go. Secondly, obzedat continued to do roughly nothing, except the one time I got obzedat+whip going. I don't think he fits my build, which is more beatdown than control so I'm dropping him for stormbreath. Anger also underperformed surprisingly. I think its because my meta is largely big green creatures and I saw no aggro. I think I will go with 4 reckoners in main over anger so I'm still strong against aggro while also having someone who can pressure control and trade with big green guys that hit on the ground. Aurelia continues to be amazing for me and whip was a solid card through out.
First is the deck that I posted some months ago.
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Dreadbore
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Merciless Eviction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Rakdos Keyrune
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Sin Collector
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Wear//Tear
2 Slaughter Games
2 Underworld Connections
At the time I like the Precinct Captains because they can steal games from Control. If they don't have any answer to it, they will just lose to the pressure that Captain provides on its own. Meaning I didn't have to advance the board at all. This is a huge asset in the Control match up, which I felt at the time was, and still feel actually, the weakest match up for the deck. I was using a 1/1 split of Obzedat and whip to try and get there. The combo was nice but not reliable which I why I was running 1/1 instead of 2/2 or some other split (which admittedly made it more unreliable). You might notice the Merciless Eviction in the deck. I was running that because it stops devotion decks cold. They have to over-commit to the board in order to get devotion going. This is mostly why they struggle against control decks. Not to mention, once their god comes online you can call creatures and get everything. A really big play. The sideboard was an amalgamation of what I thought at the time was the correct way to attack control. I also don't have Desecration Demon in the list because I hate it and think that it is garbage. No offense if you like the card but when I was using it, it either got tapped down, removed or laughed at. It had its moments where it destroyed an opponent but I would have to be ahead to apply the pressure and hope they couldn't tap it down. In that scenario I felt like anything could apply the same pressure, i.e. Captain.
However, the Captain does only what I said which is steal games. I would have to have it on turn 2/3 in order to get them. Any other time and the captain was a partially dead draw. Not to mention Captain was terrible against R/G monsters, G devotion, Black Devotion, and Blue Devotion. It really only has value against Control and partially RDW. The more that I studied Obzedat in the meta the more it seemed awful. You don't really want to have to blink a blocker in the RDW matchup, or any devotion matchup, just to get the value from it. Control decks have answers to it (esper has downfalls and U/W has some stuff). It just isn't that strong right now in my opinion. The interaction with the Whip was cute but that was about all it was. The Whip didn't do much of anything else. Whipping back a Reckoner was so lackluster since almost anyone would just take the 3. I gain 3 life but in most match ups that was small potatoes. And it didn't get much better from there. There weren't many creatures that warranted having the whip in the deck once I decided that Obzedat wasn't where I wanted to be.
So my deck evolved to this:
3 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Thoughtseize
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Dreadbore
3 Downfall
4 Rakdos Keyrune
3 Read the Bones
1 Merciless Eviction
1 Rakdos's Return
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Glare of Heresy
2 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
2 Slaughter Games
1 Underworld Connection
2 Wear//Tear
Starting with the Sideboard. I absolutely hated Sin Collector because most of the time he wiffed or wasn't able to take what I wanted. He was also not a very good top deck. So I removed him for Duress which I could cast on T1 or use in conjunction with a threat on the same turn, clearing a way for my threat as opposed to doing it a turn early. It also was able to take Planeswalkers which was huge. But the problem was that it was a sideboard spot devoted to just control. Which I'm fine with but I ended up over sideboarding for the control matchup since most of my sideboard was devoted to it. Not a very good strategy. This informed my transformations to the deck later. I cut down on Underworlds because I put some Read the Bones in the main, see below.
In terms of the mainboard, first is the aforementioned Read the Bones. I put them in the deck because I needed more consistent draws. Getting what I need now as opposed to hoping I draw it. It has proved to be really good at advancing my strategy depending on what I'm playing against. It lets me put Chain to the Rocks to the bottom when I'm facing control and it helps me find Elspeth right when I needed it against devotion. I cut down on Merciless Eviction because Elspeth could do most of what I wanted at the same price. Not to mention it was a terrible early draw and while it still has uses against control, it just wasn't what I wanted there. I increased the Keyrune count because it is insane. It really can put pressure on Control where their only answers are D-Spheres and Downfalls. It also protected me against Devour Flesh and was an all-star against aggro with its first strike. The fact that it couldn't be Ultimate Priced or Doom Bladed is huge. It also finds me the mana I need for the hungry curve. Running only 25 land felt right and Keyrunes helped that immensely. In taking out the Obzedat/Whip combo, I knew I needed more finishers and ways to pressure control. Therefore I opted to add more Stormbreath Dragons. The montrous is great and the haste is even better. The pro-white is really only relevant against mono-white and white weenie decks. But I already crushed them with Blood Barons, so Dragon wasn't really a consideration there.
Unfortunately my testing with this deck showed me that Stormbreath isn't alllllll that great. I never really wanted 3 copies against control since I don't want to clutter the board giving them a nice X for 1 with Supreme Verdict. By itself control matchups didn't care about it all that much. And the more I played, it was obvious that Blood Baron was getting the same treatment. They were able to out race both or remove them. Their ability to pressure me while ignoring my threats was why I was struggling against them. This is partly because 4 damage isn't that much pressure considering the life they can gain. Waiting for the Sphinxes Revelation is also easy when it is just 4 damage a turn. In addition they don't care about a 3/3 bear for 3 (i.e. Reckoner). But I was convinced that Reckoner was great against R/G monsters, Devotion decks and Aggro. So it had to stay there, right? Well I was just assuming without actually testing. When I looked at those matchups with Reckoner I realized that most of those decks ignored it, outright killed it with something that wouldn't disrupt their plan, kill it before it could disrupt their plan, or just played around it. Even still the things that were doing the most work in those matchups were my removal and finishers, not the Reckoners. I would almost always rather play my keyrune to advance my board and put out finishers a turn early or use the keyrune to similarly defend. It caused the same paused reaction whenever I was about to be attacked and dodged more removal. Given my estimations in control matchups and how the reckoner fit in the meta, the deck evolved to this
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Thoughtseize
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Dreadbore
4 Downfall
4 Rakdos Keyrune
1 Orzhov Keyrune
2 Read the Bones
2 Toil//Trouble
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Rakdos's Return
3 Pithing Needle
3 Glare of Heresy
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Merciless Eviction
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Slaughter Games
Now we are starting to see some drastic changes. Where to begin. I wanted more pressure and while I tried out Desecration Demon it was usually tapped down by mana dorks, Elspeth tokens, things unessential to the ultimate swing. The problem was that I wanted it for defensive pressure. I wanted to be able to go offensive once I had settled the board but still be able to hold me down for a turn or two. Enter Alms Beast. I know there has been discussion here about it but I think it is really superior to Desecration Demon in what I wanted it to do. The life gain it presents is irrelevant to me. I can get back through that. The ability to successfully block Ruric Thar, get around Ultimate Price, Doom Blade, present a 3 turn clock to control decks and help stall aggro decks was invaluable. I have been debating switching it to Ember Swallower but the mana would have to be changed heavily. I think I would rather have Alms Beast for the removal dodging and mana consistency.
Next you might see the Orzhov Keyrune and think I'm nuts. Well I probably am, but not for that reason. The Orzhov keyrune does the same thing that Rakdos keyrune does for me EXCEPT I can turn three drop keyrune and play chained to the rocks. Which is a huge play. The life gain is semi-relevant and aggro decks aren't really happy to see it. It dodges their mizziums so it usually has to be a block and burn situation (which I am completely fine with).
Yea, I moved Reckoners to the Sideboard. Complete sacrilege. It comes in against R/G monsters, deovtion, and aggro, just because it CAN do work there, but it is only because it does more work than thoughtseize. I haven't missed it in the main and am happy I made the switch. I can go more in depth if someone wants.
I put in 2 Assemble the Legion to replace the finishers I took out in Blood Barons and Stormbreaths. The switch has improved my game 1 against control two-fold. Sometimes they have no answer to it but really it just does the same work that a Blood Baron or Stormbreath does without having to worry about all removal. The only thing is Detention Sphere and that means that I don't have to worry about my Rakdos Keyrunes being D-Sphered nor do I have to worry about my Elspeth being D-SPhered. Basically I am attacking the weakest part of the control deck which their ability to deal with “non-doom bladable” things. They only have 4 D-Spheres and they better draw them all. The switch to Assemble didn't affect my other matchups that much. Mono-black can't do anything about it, plus it laughs at Desecration Demon. Mono Blue can bounce it all but other than that they are also in trouble. It doesn't shine against aggro but if I can land it and give it some time (which with all the removal and keyrunes I usually can), then it is almost unbeatable for them. That is the same with G/R monsters except I am usually afforded more time there.
Having 1-ofs in Stormbreath and Blood Baron is still fine so I can mise out games. I still have a Blood Baron in the side for mono-black and mono-white. It might not be correct as I'll discuss with my thoughts on future evolutions.
The last thing is putting in 2 toil//trouble. It is a finisher against control. If their life is within 4 points of the number of cards in their hand, then it can kill them right there. Sphinx won't save them (unless they unload it for 0 to get rid of a card) since it will just negate the life gain with damage. It can also be used as a psuedo-read the bones. It has been amazing and almost want more except that read the bones is disgusting so I can't see myself ever dropping below 2 read the bones. The 2/2 split might change but only in terms of increasing one or the other. I think 2/2 is just right and won't be going less than that for either. I doubt I'll increase either as well.
Quick hits: Moving Elspeth up to 3 has been great. I needed more finishers and Elspeth is just crazy against a plethora of decks. Downfall needs to be at 4 for me because of the nature of how I'm playing this deck. I'm just controlling the board until I get a finisher down. Downfall does it better than any other spell in my opinion. Chained to the Rocks is also great as a cheap removal spell. I doubt anyone is running Peak Eruption, but if they are then good job, you got me. I'm preboarded for control with Rakdos's Return in the main. The switch is usually Merciless Eviction for it when I play any other deck. I am moved that way because Rakdos's return is still great against most other decks. Even as a fireball. Whereas Eviction is sometimes a miss (mostly against control). I would just rather try to steal game 1 there.
On some exclusions that are popular in other decks. I like Mizzium Mortars but I would rather have straight removal in Chained to the Rocks. I think if I ever saw a move to more aggro and more Peak Eruption, I would instantly changed Chained for Mizzium. I would like to add Warleaders for the healing (since I can self-inflict a lot of damage), but I just don't know where to put it. Again I would rather have straight removal, but I do like Warleaders. I don't like Aurelia at all. I would almost always rather have an Elspeth. Plus I don't have enough threat density to warrant an Aurelia. Usually she is just untapping herself to attack again, not really great.
How I sideboard currently:
Control:
-3 Chain
-1 Orzhov Keyrune
-4 Dreadbore
+3 Pithing Needle
+3 Glare of Heresy
+1 Slaughter Games
+1 Blood Baron
R/G Monsters and Green Devotion really:
-4 Thoughtseize
-2 Rakdos's Return
-1 Orzhov Keyrune
+2 Reckoner
+2 Merciless Eviction
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Anger or Slaughter Games or Blood Baron. You pick. None are really that stellar here, maybe just keep the Keyrune in? All kind of suck
Mono-black/black devotion
-4 Thoughtseize
-2 Rakdos's Return
+2 Merciless Eviction
+1 Blood Baron
+3 Pithing Needle
Mono-blue devotion: (I need a much better strategy here, working on that)
-2 Rakdos's Return
+2 Merciless Eviction
Aggro:
-4 Thoughtseize
-2 Rakdos's
-2 Toil//Trouble
+3 Anger
+2 Reckoner
+2 Merciless
+1 Blood Baron
Thoughts for what I might want to do going forward.
First I want to mention my weaknesses. I know my mono-blue strategy is weak, but I'm not worried about that match-up as much. I still think that it is winnable without having to change too much. Pithing needles might want to go in, but I'm not sure. I know I'm weak against Blood Barons, but against that is just something I am able to live with. I don't see many of them, and I still have outs (i.e. stormbreath, elspeth). Other than that I don't find too many weaknesses. I think control is still weak, but is much more even with this list. I have been performing well against different versions of Esper Control. I am also straight out ignoring Burning Earth. If it gets me, so be it. But I'm not going to devote a sideboard slot(s) (wear//tear) to beating it. It is something I need to figure out, but I haven't gotten to that point yet. I also know that I'm bad with not being able to recoup life after self-inflicting some wounds.
With my weaknesses in mind. I really only think I can address the last one at the moment. I'm considering something like the following:
Mainboard
+1 Assemble the Legion
+2 Whip of Erebos
+2 Shadowborn Demon
+1/2 Alms Beast
-1 Orzhov Keyrune (I love living the dream, but might be a short lived one)
-2 Rakdos's Return
-1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa and/or -1 Stormbreath Dragon (to make room for the number of Alms Beast I want)
-1 Dreadbore and -1 Hero's Downfall (to make room for Shadowborn Demon which will do the same thing somewhat)
Sideboard would then look like
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Merciless Eviciton
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Pithing Needle
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
I would want the whips to address my self-inflicted wounds. The added Alms Beast would be to get that extra value out of the whip with more life gained. The whip also interacts with Shadowborn Demon favorably, being able to kill two things. Shadowborn demon might seem bad since I would have to sac something every turn but Assemble and Elspeth take care of that problem nicely. The sideboard makes me skiddish. I really love Pithing Needle in this meta and running less than 3 makes me nervous. Glare of Heresy is for Elspeth which is neigh unbeatable. I mean I can still attack through her tokens or kill her with dreadbore and downfall but still glare is much more efficient while providing extra utility against detention sphere and assemble the legion. The question is how badly I want Blood Barons and then if I would cut them completely for more Needles and Heresy. I don't think that Blood Baron is that good in this meta and what I miss with him I make up for with other cards (assemble is still unbeatable for mono black and aggro can't really swing through assemble). I could also use those spots that are freed up with Blood Baron for Wear//Tear and that would solve the aforementioned problems with enchantments. But I lose the utility that Glare brings. If they don't draw Assemble or D-sphere, then wear//tear is a dead card in my hand. Whereas Glare can kill whatever else they play. Something to test and consider I suppose.
Anyway, I wrote a lot here. Sorry for any spelling or formatting errors. I will fix those as I read it again after I've posted.
Please share your thoughts on this, good or bad. And thanks for reading if you did
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He is very good against mono-black but I'm not sure that he really ups your win % against that deck that much. I think BBoV only presents diminishing returns there since I think mono-black is pretty winable without him. The things you will lose to against mono-black BBoV wouldn't necessarily help you against (hard to race Pack Rat with BBoV if you didn't have timely removal for it, hard to stop Grey Merchant from bowling you over with BBoV). For example, I beat a mono-black deck on a mull to 4, on the play, where they didn't mull at all AND thoughtseized me twice in the first 4 turns. To be fair I ran pretty hot, but still that is pretty sick and made me think that the matchup is easily winnable by the nature of my deck.
Also I think that control has more outs than you are giving them credit for. Supreme Verdicts, Elspeth, Devour Flesh (if esper), Celestial Flare, Countering it, Thoughtseizing it, or just plain out racing it with Aetherling and Sphinxes or stalling with their own Blood Baron (if esper). No they aren't going to have all of those things but I think they have efficient ways of dealing with BBoV. I've played it against Control quite a bit and while it seems like it would be an allstar it really didn't present the threat that I needed to put pressure on them.
In terms of cutting it, I think that in my deck I would need that spot that BBoV takes up for a finisher and a 4/4 lifelink for 5 mana is just not fitting that role. It doesn't create the type of board presence you want from a finisher. The pro-black and pro-white is good if you are playing a deck with those colors but if you are not then it is just underwhelming. For example it is pretty bad against R/G monsters, green devotion, and blue devotion. It also really isn't the end-all-be-all against red decks either since they usually have mortars somewhere or can double burn it (that is admittedly still nice). In the instances where BBoV overtakes RDW or any of those other decks, I think that any other card with similar power could do the same. So it isn't distinct to BBoV's ability. Which to me means that I would rather have something that is better against those matchups mentioned and better against control.
Those are just my two cents though. I think I might be in the minority about BBoV as well.
This deck, like most in the format, suffer pretty bad from poor manabase issues until we get the remaining scry lands. Most builds are focusing heavy red from Anger, Stormbreath, and Chained to the Rocks, which makes a 3 drop double BB incredibly hard to reliably cast. If though youre playing a black based build with Desecration Demon, Hero's Downfall, and Whip of Erebos I can totally get behind running Lifebane Zombie.
There was some discussion about lifebane in the first 50 posts here I think, if I remember correctly. What it came down to then, which I still agree with, is that it really isn't that good at doing what you want it to. There are times when it is going to blow your opponent out but that is only in the first 3-5 turns. After turn 5 they will have cast any creature they have in there hand (for the most part). I can't think of many circumstances where turn 6 or 7 they are still holding a creature unless they are mana screwed (in which case you should be beating them anyway) or they have some behemoth that has an ETB trigger (i.e. Sylvan Primordial ). So in that respect it is pretty bad topdeck as it will only be a 3/1 intimidate for 3.
Furthermore, even if you do cast it in T3-5 you still might not hit something. It depends on what you are playing it against. G/R monsters has a lot of PWs but beyond the 9-ish that they play it is all creatures so you'll probably get them there unless they are flush with Stormbreaths. If it is GW, then your chances are slightly worse between Ajani, selesnya charm, advent of the wurm, rootborn defenses, and (some people are still playing) call of the conclave. If you want to rip BBoVs from control players, then I don't think that would work out very well.
What it comes down to is that 3 power for 3 mana (when it doesn't hit anything) is just ok. My deck isn't that kind of deck. I think that if your WRB list is more aggro oriented, then it would fit right in. But in the end if it is by itself it is a 7 turn clock and most decks will either be able to out race it if it is by itself, kill it, or ignore it.
But when it hits it is awesome. The problem is that it is just too inconsistent. That plus there aren't that many decks that you are going to bring it in against. I would rather live with that match up by having Glares for white creatures and just kill all green creatures.
Anyway that is why I have stayed away from it. I think the consensus is the somewhat like my opinion but I'm not sure.
Yea I understand that. I'm not sure if I want to cut it from the 75 completely yet. It is a good card but I have been impressed at how my deck is performing without it. Causing me to change my opinion of it. I think the only deck it really shines against is mono-black, but still I'm not sure that it improves that match-up by anything more than a percent or two. I could be wrong about that however.
This is the other reason that some people are not playing Lifebane. It can easily be done. I was running Precinct Captains at one time and semi-consistently casting them on T2. I also tried out Frostburn Weirds to try and stave off aggro while being given the option to pressure control. I made the mana base to be more centered towards red and it worked out alright. I think you can make the mana base centered towards any of the colors and if you were intent on running the Zombie, then it can be done.
The keyrunes also help in this regard.
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I don't know about everyone else but I'm running Assemble the Legion. I think that esper control will stick with BBoV but in my playtest groupthe esper players have moved them to the sideboard. There are just too many decks that it is bad against and when you only have a few finishers that you are counting on to end the game for you, BBoV just doesn't do it solo.
The esper control players in my group are using more Elspeth and removal in place of any BBoVs in the main. And they usually only bring in BBoV against WBR, mono black and White Weenies.
Edit- I should also mention that I'm considering having Shadowborn Demon in the main as well. Debating/Testing that. It would semi-replace BBoV in terms of CC and role as a finisher
Your exactly right in this regard. Usually this and sin collector are meta calls and can give your deck that better game 1 win percentage in the right meta. That top 16 deck was a good example of this. He anticipated that Esper Humans and white weenie decks were going to be big in that tourney and planned for it.
As far as the 5 drop discussion goes, it came down to wanting to cut redundant beaters for more efficient cards. Obzedat to me is better with a proper curve. 1 drops all the way into him. Baron actually stays on the field to block and stabilize so he's a little better than obzedat in creature light midrange builds. Obzedat is still in the side for me, it's just Baron and Dragon seem to close games better overall.
I haven't had a chance to play this at any FNM's, but have tested a bit online. I've been having fairly good results unless I get flooded or mana screwed.
Any recommendations? Especially the sideboard.
And I haven't found anything in this thread (not that I looked hard), but what are the better cards in WBR to be sideboarding against the current meta? What would be the sideboarding strategy?
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Sin Collector
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Warleader's Helix
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Dreadbore
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Rakdos's Return
4 Thoughtseize
2 Rakdos Keyrune
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Slaughter Games
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Wear // Tear
1 Underworld Connections
1 Dreadbore
1 Pithing Needle
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
Legacy GElves | UMerfolk
I have never been a fan of Anger of the Gods in the main board and I think that in the current meta it is even more out of place there. It is just a dead draw against so many decks that I really can't recommend it in the main. That is unless you know, or are making a calculated bet, that it is going to be mostly aggro. Even then, I think that our G1 matchup against aggro is still ok, especially if you are running other types of catch all removal (downfalls, dreadbores, etc) as well as reckoners.
I'm also not a huge fan of sin collector (main or side) but I think that is a meta and pilot call. It will often whiff after the first 6ish turns, but it can sometimes get there.
I'm also not a fan of Chandra, just as a card in general. Though I think some people have had success with her.
I wrote up on page 154 how my deck as evolved from 4 months ago til now. I discuss various cards in there and towards the end of my post (which is fairly lengthy, sorry!) I discuss my sideboarding strategy. I've also talked (recently, in the past 5 posts or so) my dislike for lifebane zombie in general.
However if you would like me to go more in depth after reading my post, or if you would like specific suggestions about your planned sideboard as it is, then I'd be happy to reply.
My opinion on Boros Reckoner is that Alms Beast is just better in this deck. We have alot of hard removal and Anger. It is very easy to clear the board and a 6/6 hits twice as hard as a 3/3. The lifegain is just not relevant for this deck.
As for sideboard for your deck I would:
1 Sin Collector
3 Lifebane Zombie
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Rakdos Return
3 Slaughter Games
1 Ultimate Price
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Pithing Needle
I also favor Assemble the Legion over Blood Baron of Vizkopa, but to be honest, I like them both right now.
5 swiss, top16
1 Stormbreath Dragon
Instant [10]
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Warleader's Helix
2 Devour Flesh
2 Aurelia's Fury
1 Ultimate Price
1 Magma Jet
Sorcery [13]
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Dreadbore
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Read the Bones
2 Toil // Trouble
4 Rakdos Keyrune
Enchantment [6]
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Assemble the Legion
Planeswalker [1]
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Land [25]
1 Unknown Shores
5 Mountain
3 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Read the Bones
1 Dark Betrayal
2 Last Breath
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Wear // Tear
2 Illness in the Ranks
I forgot 2 pithing needles thus putting useless 2 Illness instead making my sideboard 15
Also couldn't find Orzhov Keyrune, definitely replacing 1 or 2 Rakdos ones, been so many times wanted to cast chain after keyrune on turn 3/4.
vs White Weenie 2-1
Game 1: lost quite fast to double mutavault, cleared other creatures and left with enough dreadbores/chains/angers stuck in hand
Game 2: sided in Glares, another Anger, and Breaths. Won with Chandra although he dropped 3 Fiendslayer Paladin in a row
during sideboard he complains about how hard it is to deal with chandra
I think I should side in some wear//tear cause I saw Blind Obedience and Spear of Heliod
Game 3: won with Assemble while locking him with double Fury on upkeep
vs RDW 2-0
Game 1: Won with keyrune beatdowns after exhausting his resources via return for 3 after anger
Game 2: he brought in Ratchet Bombs for my chains, I brought in angers and breaths for phoenix, won with assemble again locking him from playing ratchet bomb with upkeep fury
vs MonoGreen 2-1
Game 1: Removing all his creatures, win by beats from Dragon although he has a random fog
Game 2: He brought in 2 Plummet for Dragon (LOL) and stuck in his hand forever lost to Nylea and Beasts from Primeval Bounty
Game 3: He didn't remove the Plummet, I brought in Tear for his enchantments. Win via Assemble after I removed all his threats. Afterwards he said that Plummet always useless in his hand, I said that I have only 1 Dragon, haha.
vs MonoBlack 2-0
Game 1: Resolved turn 4 Aseemble, easy win soon after
Game 2: Resolved another turn 4 Aseemble, Slaughtering his merchant, he got no way to gain life, he got 2 of his mutavaults removed by anger after baiting with Magma Jet on Pack Rat
Round 5: ID
Top16 vs Jund 2-0
Game1: got 4 dorks via Anger, emptied his hand after with Rakdos' Return won shortly after with keyrune hits and some burn
Game2: Assemble kept non trample creatures at bay. Won with those tokens afterwards.
Top8 vs MonoBlack 2-1
Game1: 1st turn Thoughtseize taking my Assemble won via big fireball Fury-Return combo, finished with Helix.
Game2: He opened with Thoughtseize, Duress, another Thoughtseize beatdown with double mutavault
Game3: 3 games in a row he opened with Thoughtseize and Mutavault Kept up on removal via Chandra netting Chained and Dreadbore before killed, ended when he left with 2 cards in hand 6 lifes I have 6 lands a keyrune a dragon in play and some removals in hand as usual. Could've attacked with both, or attack with dragon and monstrosity, but if he has removal he will survive a turn anyways, so I just attack with the dragon, he took in and I pass priority and he took the damage. During his upkeep I monstrosity the dragon for 2 damage (at least taking his mana for that turn if he did have removal)
Top4 vs MonoBlack 0-2 (the guy from R4)
Game 1: Lost to Triple Underworld Connection, he took my Toil//Trouble when I had lethal with thoughtseize and drew 2 merchants. Afterwards I had 2 hp left, he got 8 left, 2 demons, I Returned for 10, he devoured 1 of his Demon and I Dreadbore the other. Then he topdecked Gray Merchant of Asphodel (I had Aurelia's Fury on my topdeck, his only way out was that merchant)
Game 2: He opened with Thoughtseize, soon after Duress, and another Thoughtseize leaving me with only Wear//Tear in my hand, kept up with some Toil and Read the Bones but he learned his lesson from last round and kept his Parikka' Cure for my keyrunes.
Lesson from the Day:
Not a bad result with a deck that didn't get properly tested, perhaps I got lucky and didn't face other Control Decks.
Definitely wants my Pithing Needle for Mutavault. Or Remove some Dreadbores/Chains/Ulti Price and add some Lightning Strike (Doom Blade is bad vs Nightveil Spectre so I don't want it)
Almost all games vs MonoB I slaughtered their Gray Merchant of Asphodel since that's the only card that give em some reach and out of nowhere as well.
I am anticipating more people trying to jam G/W with BotG release, so I think Reckoner gets better as in my experience I find he is good at stalling fatties like Polukranos, Wurm tokens, and large VoR tokens and Experiment Ones until you can get Stormbreath online (which along with BBoV and Aurelia is a house in this matchup since they have very little way to deal with flyers and they only have Polukranos, Satyr, and Wurm tokens to block Baron).
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I haven't posted on this thread ina while, but I've continued to follow it...
Deep down I still believe that these 3 colors has access to all the tools to dominate the format.
I am very excited for a few of the new cards coming. (Not aloud to talk about them yet...)
With that being said, although I have been piloting a traditional UB Control list to some great success lately, I have still not been able to give up on this deck and keep refining it.
I'm very impartial to one of the older lists and haven't deviated much from it...
This could be a Good thing seeing how a lot have moved on from a bunch of the card choices, this could also be a bad thing as being stuck in the past isn't innovative.
Although I am still impartial to the older style lists, that doesn't mean I've been living under a rock and haven't been playing magic and seeing what the meta is, also considering the meta at my shop.
With that being said though, here's the list I'm taking for a test run tonight at TNM.
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Sin Collector
2 Lifebane Zombie
Spells: 16
4 Thoughtseize
3 Dreadbore
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Warleader's Helix
4 Magma Jet
1 Read the Bones
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Whip of Erebos
Lands: 25
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Triumph
3 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Lifebane Zombie
1 Sin Collector
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Underworld Connections
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Wear//Tear
1 Glare of Heresy
2 Doom Blade
About my list:
A Better Understanding -- So I feel like after following the thread for awhile and staying silent, and mixing and matching a bunch of things.
Also playing STD a lot on Tue/Fri and any times in between. Playtesting this list any chance I get. I feel like I have a better understanding at what this deck is needing to do.
The reason I think this deck is amazing is because of the THREATS it packs. Each of the main threats has a unique challenge in answering it.
My earlier list ran Rakdos's Return and I really thought that it was needed and refused to examine lists without it.
However; I realized this deck is about dropping threats... If you're not dropping threats, then you need to be killing their threats, killing their hand, or digging for threats.
Rakdos's Return did none of those things... it was trying to "Be A Threat" or trying to "Protect Threats" and doing neither of those 2 things well.
I feel like the Priorities of this deck should be:
1.) Be a Threat! Not just any big hulking creature, but a creature that has an inherent challenge to the kinds of removal being run.
2.) Protect your Threats! Your whole deck can't be filled with Threats, that wouldn't be optimal. So then the rest of the deck should be ways of dealing with your opponent while protecting your threats. Discard
3.) Find your Threats! That leaves the rest to dig those threats up when you're ready.
The underlying theme to this is, Threats. These 3 colors have access to the best challenging to deal with creatures in the Format. All on their own in various 2 color decks, or mono colored decks, yes they are still hard to deal with but easier in those narrowed down lists. In our deck, we're packing all these hard to deal with creatures in 1 deck, combined together it creates real problems for your opponents, but only if you get a chance to play them.
So I made a few minor adjustments from the list, focused more on the threats, protecting the threats, trying to keep the board clear for your threats, or digging for those threats.
I remember playing the older versions and it drove me crazy how some games it would dominate, while others you just drew the wrong half of your deck.
With that being said, let's examine the threats that I have gone to...
1.) Aurelia -- I'm still sold and high on Aurelia. I've played with her enough now since way back when she was first suggested and just love how she can win games out of nowhere, even win games that this deck had no business in winning. I can't count how many times I may have been counted out, or in a bad position and Aurelia just turns up the heat and pushes the deck over the edge. Shes been Fantastic!
2.) Blood Baron of Vizkopa -- Not sure why people are considering cutting this, I still think it's one of the more effective 5 Drops for our deck. It's solid in a lot of matchups.
3.) Erebos -- This is a strange one I admit... Erebos in the main?? To be honest it has more to do with his Draw/Dig potential in stalemate types of games then it has about his devotion or the size of the creature. He is still fairly easy to activate for finishes though. I didn't want to run 2 Read the Bones as that card is great, it has its merit, but I just don't think more then 1 is needed or even good.
4.) Boros Reckoner -- A lot of people been discussing cutting him, and I've seen a lot of lists dropping the numbers. I still think this is one of the most effective creatures when dealing with aggro we have. It stalls aggro decks long enough to be picky and choosy on what to use your removal on. It even can stall long enough for you to dig for some removal. I get that it isn't effective VS Mono Black or most control decks as it'll just get killed instantly, but if you consider all the other threats in the deck, and the Unique challenges that the 5 CMC Threats bring to the table on trying to kill them, if they're killing Reckoner with a Devour Flesh or a Doom Blade or anything else, that's one less removal spell they have for the finishers. With the amount of Discard in the deck, they'll be forced to answer Reckoner early.
5.) Sin Collector -- The thing I love about Sin Collector is VS a lot of decks it'll pick off Removal spells that can create problems later when you drop your other bombs. If all they have is a Devour Flesh in their hand with Hero's Downfall/Ultimate Price/Doom Blade, pick off the Devour and proceed to drop Blood Baron. Or in the case of Obzedat, pick off the Downfall and drop Obzedat. On top of picking off Removal, you get extra peeks at your opponents hand, having that information is very helpful and very valuable. Does Sin Collector blank? Sure... That's what the early Thoughtseize is for, Thoughtseize, see their hand, pick any non land card. If you see other removal in there, Sin Collector turn 3 to pull it and pave the way for the rest of the deck to shine.
6.) Obzedat -- Another creature that I have liked since we started adding it in the beginning. Another creature that has seemed to fall out of favor lately. I don't know why, I can't even speculate as to why. Obzedat is amazing with Whip, everybody knows that. The thing that I still love about Obzedat, is just like the rest of the creature lineup, he has his own very real challenges to kill it. From top to bottom, Reckoner isn't easy to deal with unless you're packing Kill Cards, a lot of decks do. If you're killing Reckoner, and having your hand disrupted, then it's easy to assume that it'll be even that much harder to answer a Blinking Obzedat, or a Pro White/Black Baron, or a Hastey Aurelia, or an Indestructable Erebos.
7.) Lifebane Zombie -- This is merely a meta call, a lot of the aggro decks at my shop are Green, White aggro. Or RG Monsters and the like. Not to mention VS UW Control (Another big one at my shop) it's a 3/1 Intimidator and can become a issue if not dealt with. Sure it gets sided out more then anything, but I like it's presence in the main as a 2 of, gives me additional peeks at my opponents hand without having to spend a Sin Collector or a Thoughtseize and possibly blanking on it.
A few other card choices that I have back in my list...
Magma Jet -- I know it's not the greatest kill card, it only does 2 damage. But if you consider that it kills early Pack Rats, kills Mana Dorks from GR Monsters, and it puts in Work VS Jace and other problem cards, it's still a pretty effective card. Bonus, it helps you dig through your deck to find more removal, protection, threats.
Read the Bones -- A single Read the Bones seems odd, but what I intend it for is just to be digging for threats, removal, protection. At times the deck will slow down, stall, and so it's nice to DIG and then DRAW. I don't want to fill my deck with a play set of these, as it can be a bad card VS a lot of matchups, but to top deck a Read the Bones in a Mid/Late game when I need to stick a threat, this isn't a terrible card. Granted, I would rather the threat itself, but if I don't get the threat, I'll dig for one. It's effective for what I intended to use it for.
I think everything else in the main can explain itself...
Sideboard notes...
These plans are a rough sketch of what I'm using for tonight... subject to change a bit.
VS UW/x Control:
-4 Magma Jet
-2 Chained to the Rocks
-1 Read the Bones
-1 Dreadbore
+1 Sin Collector
+2 Duress
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Underworld Connections
+1 Glare of Heresy
The thought process is to keep all... ALL of the creatures in VS them. You want a strong early game, that's the disruption package. If I stick Lifebane Zombie, I know it'll blank but it's extra peeks at my opponents hand. See a Revelations, Sin Collector it. Lifebane then becomes a Intimidator 3/1 that puts in quick work and needs to be answered. The same goes for Reckoner. A lot of people would probably side out Reckoner and I wouldn't say that's wrong. Going with what I made the priorities of the deck earlier, it's about the Threats and each of them having unique challenges. So why remove ANY of the threats making it easier for my opponent to pick and choose what he answers with his tools. I intend to leave it all out there... I believe the combination of all these creatures working together is a problem for most opponents. Don't overextend, each of these creatures puts in work by themselves, so you don't walk into a Verdict. Glare is for Elspeth or Detention Sphere. Connections is for additional Draw obviously... I think the rest of the options speak for themselves.
VS MBD:
-2 Lifebane Zombie
-1 Aurelia, the Warleader
-1 Whip of Erebos
+2 Assemble the Legion
+2 Wear//Tear
Again, the theme of my post is Threats. So I'll be taking out Lifebane as it's not very threatening to Mono Black, taking out Aurelia (Not sure why, I like it, but I feel more often then not they'll probably have the removal to deal with her before trigger.) I'll be bringing in another very tough to deal with threat in Assemble the Legion for Mono Black. Sure they have Illness in the Ranks, but I have Wear//Tear to work on that. I also have the Thoughtseize to rip away Illness. Assemble the Legion is just another hard to deal with Threat, to go along with the rest of the hard to deal with Threats for them. I have zero concern if they do successfully answer Assemble because I left in ALL the other threats.
VS GR Monsters or most other Aggro:
-1 Sin Collector
-1 Erebos, God of the Dead
-1 Read the Bones
+2 Doom Blade
+1 Lifebane Zombie
VS Non Black Aggro, GR, GW, Mono Green, Mono White, etc.. etc.. Lifebane is very effective still VS them. Picking off their BIGs out of their hand, while Jet's kill the mana dorks so they don't get to cast them anyways. Doom Blades obviously for extra kill support. I still again like Sin Collector as a lot of those decks do carry shenanigans. GR Monsters packs Mortars, RW packs Boros Charms. There's something to hit with all those decks... Siding out 1 Sin Collector means I keep 2 in the main, it's merely a card I would play say Turn 4 before the turn I plan on dropping a Baron for example to check for Mortars and pull it.
Again, the underlying theme, I kept all the creature threats.
These are the big matchups at my local shop... but I think that sideboard can mix and match a bit for other oddities.
So there it is folks, if you stuck around and read the Wall O' Text, thanks, give me your feedback.
Feel free to PM me too...
I would also make room in the side for a second whip, in the matchups you want to lean on Sin Collectors and Lifebane Zombie its good enough to warrant a second copy.
You already addressed Erebos, I would play a second read the bones (and do) personally, but its clear youve already consider that and decided against.
And I appreciate the guildgates. Its hard to believe how many people completely ignore how important a good manabase is. With the new Scry land it'll obviously look alot better, but I can appreciate that you have decide not to live in magical christmas land!
Lost to RG
Lost to Mirror match!!!!
Lost to RG
Beat UG flash
Beat UW control
Beat RG
Beat GW aggro
Beat mono black
Lost UW control
I knew my RG matchup was bad and shouldve addressed it before hand
Lost to obzedat in the mirror
Lost to UW bc he drew 4 running counters after i emptied his hand and killed his elspeth(killed by 3 soldiers)
Taking an updated version to a PTQ this weekend.
I already have a fairly decent matchup against aggro outside of the BTE nut draw, but what are people's thoughts on Ratchet Bomb? Kills Pack Rats, Master of Wave tokens, and a variety of stuff from G/W (Advent, Elementals, etc.), along with the occasional D Sphere or other random non-creature permanent.
Another option is Lifebane Zombie for help against G/R Monsters and what I anticipate will be an uptick in G/W/x, along with being an additional out to opposing BBoV.
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You got it right, Duress is for UWR, UW Control, and Esper control matchups that I have to face on any given Friday.
I do like Slaughter Games, I used to run it but it went out of favor with me and others.
You might be right that it should come back, especially with all the peeks at my opponents hand that I get, I'll def give it a try.
I don't know that I want 3 Slaughter Games tho, 3 seems a bit much, but I will try it.
I like this idea as well, I will consider it!
After the showing I had on that Tuesday, I did end up tweeking the deck to add a 2nd RtB.
I'm considering actually maybe going to 3 RtB and cutting out the Magma Jet's all together.
I'm not sure how good Jet is as I'm really liking Lightning Strike more right now because of all the Nightveils running around.
Jet does hit a bunch of things though...
Its something I'm considering...
Oh I can't wait for Temple of Malice!!!!
I feel like I MUST run Magma Jets to help smooth out the deck and help dig through the deck to get what I need.
Adding this SCRY Land might mean I could dump the Jets and be ok.
I'm considering dumping Jets anyways in favor of more RtB, we shall see.
As for my outcome on Tuesday, it turned out not so great Record wise.
I was encouraged by the test run, I felt a lot of what I said and my perspective on this deck was correct and justified.
Just gotta refine some things and even look at some of the new Born of the Gods cards to help it out some.
I'll post another list later...
I'll take a lookie 1st tho...quite a bit to read lol
Standard: Mardu Midrange, Jeskai Wins, Naya Walkers, Boss Sligh, Mono Black Aggro
Modern: RUG Scapeshift, Burn, UG Infect
Legacy: Death n Taxes, Burn, Tendrils
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion, Krenko, Mob Boss, Narset, Enlightened Master
With Born of the Gods this is what I am going to be running
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Blood Crypt
3 Godless Shrine
3 Temple of Triumph
3 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Slaughter
4 Mountain
Creatures
4 Alms Beast
2 Desecration Demon
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
3 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Aurelia, the War Leader
4 Chain to the Rocks
4 Dreadbore
4 Magma Jet
4 Anger of the Gods
Other Stuff
3 Thoughtseize
2 Read the Bones
1 Rakdos Return
1 Thoughtseize
3 Sin Collector
1 Rakdos’s Return
3 Slaughter Games
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Elspeth, Chapion of the Sun
1 Ultimate Price
1 Wear / Tear
1 Pithing Needle
Last FNM was the first time I played Aurelia and was sold immediately. I did have 2 Elspeths and 2 Keyrunes with 25 land. Im dropping all 4, for 2 Desecration Demons, a 4th Anger of the Gods, and a Rakdos Return main. The last few weeks I have smashed good players playing all sorts of control, Mono black, mono blue, GR, white aggro, junk, golgari, but every week atleast once an FNM my deck just takes a match off and I lose to Festering Newt, or Worldspine Wurm. Despite the maddening frustration I am very pleased with the deck. I have decided I need to drop the curve though to try and eliminate the (mostly mana) inconsistencies, which are costing me far too many matchups.
As for Magma Jet I have been playing 4 for a while and assume its the correct number even with the extra scry lands. We'll see though.
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