Whip is solid against control and decent in certain midrange/aggro matchups, especially if you get into a situation where you need to race. I side it out vs mono blue and R/x Devotion though.
Aurelia actually has synergy with Whip if you can find room for both her and Obzedaddy.
Whip is solid against control and decent in certain midrange/aggro matchups, especially if you get into a situation where you need to race. I side it out vs mono blue and R/x Devotion though.
Aurelia actually has synergy with Whip if you can find room for both her and Obzedaddy.
I don't think I can play both of those guys without cutting things my deck actually needs. I think I would want whip against blue devotion, because one hit from one of my guys can put me too far ahead for them to reasonably kill me and lifegain seems good against red devotion which is largely just trying to burn you to death.
I bring him in against mono red.
Whip seems useless in the deck to me though
Like rdw or red devotion? When I used to play him, I thought he was terrible against aggro decks, because the life gain was minimal and late and he doesn't block. Against red devotion, i could see him being solid, not sure if better than aurelia though (aside from costing less and thus being easier to play).
I'm liking whip a lot so far. I noticed I had a little extra room in my deck after creatures and control and had rakdos return in. I realised, that card is just okay in most matchups and only wins against UWx which I will probably lose game 1 to anyway, so I figured I might as well put in a card that wins more. Whip doesn't take anything away from my deck, but it does give me another way to win games. It also makes it harder for me to be controlled. After playing last night with 2 in main, I found myself wanting to draw it more and never mad when I got it. I could stand to go to 3.
I don't think I can play both of those guys without cutting things my deck actually needs. I think I would want whip against blue devotion, because one hit from one of my guys can put me too far ahead for them to reasonably kill me and lifegain seems good against red devotion which is largely just trying to burn you to death.
I find that gaining 4-5 lifepoints from an Obzedat/Blood Baron is largely negated when they are smacking you with an active Thassa and a bunch of other unblockable dorks.
I will reconsider siding it out against R/x devotion though, perhaps siding out Underworld Connections instead.
Like rdw or red devotion? When I used to play him, I thought he was terrible against aggro decks, because the life gain was minimal and late and he doesn't block. Against red devotion, i could see him being solid, not sure if better than aurelia though (aside from costing less and thus being easier to play).
I'm liking whip a lot so far. I noticed I had a little extra room in my deck after creatures and control and had rakdos return in. I realised, that card is just okay in most matchups and only wins against UWx which I will probably lose game 1 to anyway, so I figured I might as well put in a card that wins more. Whip doesn't take anything away from my deck, but it does give me another way to win games. It also makes it harder for me to be controlled. After playing last night with 2 in main, I found myself wanting to draw it more and never mad when I got it. I could stand to go to 3.
He's not terrible against aggro, you can choose not to blink him and he makes a fine wall to block a lot of the R/x devotion dudes.
Return is good vs midrange and control, and I also leave it in vs mono-U and mono-B, where I usually hit them in smaller increments to keep them off devotion/put them in topdeck mode. It is too good to cut completely (and one of the main reasons for running red) as it is always a live topdeck and just randomly gives you free wins.
Whip has at least held its own so far. I've mostly been playing against control and it's been pretty good there since it acts like another threat, but it only dies to d sphere. I have yet to be sad to see it and mostly been happy to see it. Obzedat on the other has been pretty much mediocre all round. I guess that makes sense, because I've tuned my deck to win faster and obzedat is more suitable for more controlly decks since he can end games fast when the boards clear and grind you out if it's not.
I would really take any 4 good threats to replace obzedat and whip. Elspeth and Chandra, Liliana, Gideon, or Ajani could go in.
Whip has at least held its own so far. I've mostly been playing against control and it's been pretty good there since it acts like another threat, but it only dies to d sphere. I have yet to be sad to see it and mostly been happy to see it. Obzedat on the other has been pretty much mediocre all round. I guess that makes sense, because I've tuned my deck to win faster and obzedat is more suitable for more controlly decks since he can end games fast when the boards clear and grind you out if it's not.
I would really take any 4 good threats to replace obzedat and whip. Elspeth and Chandra, Liliana, Gideon, or Ajani could go in.
The only issue with the walkers in our colors is that all except Elspeth require a diverse creature base to work around. Since both Dragon and Baron has pro white, Ajani wouldn't make a good fit considering that those would be the threats I would use the ability on. Liliana is limited to grab only swamps which isn't bad, just unnecessary for a turn 4 play. I'd rather just play keyrunes instead. Gideon isn't bad for a beatstick, but if I were to run him I'd rather just run Desecration Demon instead. That leaves Chandra which is remotely relevant with her 0 ability, although her plus 1 isn't so much so. And Elspeth has the ability to stabilize and win on her own so that makes her the ideal pick.
Im still not sold on whip in the deck as you play it for 4 with absolutely no value or board impact right away.
It grants lifelink the moment it hits the battlefield. Even if you only have one creature out, say...an Alms Beast, which I run in my deck. You swing with the beast, if they don't block it's a 12 point life swing in your favor. If they do block, you're gaining 6 life, and your opponent is probably losing a creature. And that's just the first turn it comes down. The lifelink is extremely useful against aggro. The ability to send attackers from your graveyard which had previously been killed or countered is way useful against control, especially with the Obzedat combo. And both have a good chance of coming into play vs. other midrange decks or Mono-B.
I've considered running Ajani in it's place, but I haven't experimented with it much. I really like the idea of granting an Alms Beast or Desecration Demon double strike.
I dont run any creatures less than 5, one of which already has lifelink, other than sin collector which can just chump for all i care.
Idk...this isnt a whip deck to me. I have enough removal to where im not worried about aggro. By the time im utilizing whip's lifegain its a win more at that point and its pointless with baron.
This is what I played at a recent GPT Vancouver. I ended up top 8ing, but losing against a R/g devotion that splashed green for walkers due to not drawing removal.
It was a 6rounder, I went 4-1-1.
I played against Mono B, Mono U, B/W Aggro, Esper Control, Mono Red in the swiss.
Beat Mono B, Mono U, B/W Aggro 2-0, 2-1 against Mono Red
Lost to Esper Control 1-2
****Definitely felt it was due to my own play mistake in game 3 though. I thoughtseized turn 3, took dissolve. Turn 4 I slaughter games for sphinx revelation because he had 1 in his hand. He topdecks blood baron to end me. In hindsight i feel I should have just slaughter games the blood baron and left the sphinx.
Mono B
I felt slaughter gaming away the garys was the key factor in winning that game. Without a way for them to deal direct life loss, they cant keep up with both hand disruption and removal
Mono U
Mainly to keep them off devotion, no need to wait for more then 2 creatures out to anger, just angering when theres a familiar and a tidebinder is good enough. Save chained to the rocks for thassa is what saved me quite a lot during the 2 games.
Mono R
Obzedat, whip and lifebanes really saved me this game. Turn 3 lifebane to rip away reckoners then turn 4 whip.
definitely need more instant speed removals though, I ended up siding out the dreadbores and mizzium mortars for 2 devour + 1 doomblade
B/W Aggro
This match is like getting a bye.... not that i feel the BW deck has 0 chance against BWr, but I tested this deck against a friend of mine for around 50 matches+ both pre and post board. Besides games like getting stuck on 2-3lands, the game win rate was 60 to 40 in favor of BWr. Post board it became 80-20
Esper control
THis is definitely the coin flip game. You really need to win game 1 as after board the game becomes very very long........ Ive had opponents during FNMs where they've won game 1, in game 2 they just sphinx rev and elixir till time. Not saying EVERY control player does that, but it has happened quite a lot of time.
R/g Devotion
This wasnt even a game for me in top 8. with the amount of removal in my deck I think i drew 2 in opening hand and never saw another in game 1. Game 2 I had 3 in opening hand, and that was it. His domri rade kept hitting into creatures every flip, nothing i can do about that.
I dont run any creatures less than 5, one of which already has lifelink, other than sin collector which can just chump for all i care.
Idk...this isnt a whip deck to me. I have enough removal to where im not worried about aggro. By the time im utilizing whip's lifegain its a win more at that point and its pointless with baron.
I wouldn't want to run multiples (I think the place for that is probably B/W control), but I like 1 for the added value, especially since I'm already running Obzedat. Similar to the ISD iteration of the deck which had some build that were running a singleton Unburial Rites.
The only issue with the walkers in our colors is that all except Elspeth require a diverse creature base to work around. Since both Dragon and Baron has pro white, Ajani wouldn't make a good fit considering that those would be the threats I would use the ability on. Liliana is limited to grab only swamps which isn't bad, just unnecessary for a turn 4 play. I'd rather just play keyrunes instead. Gideon isn't bad for a beatstick, but if I were to run him I'd rather just run Desecration Demon instead. That leaves Chandra which is remotely relevant with her 0 ability, although her plus 1 isn't so much so. And Elspeth has the ability to stabilize and win on her own so that makes her the ideal pick.
Desecration demon is the main reason I wouldn't run ajani. He can be tapped down all the same even if he has double strike. Liliana, I could seriously consider. If she stays out a while you hit all your land drops and you also get to buff your creatures to some absurd number for the kill. I already run max desecration demons so I wouldn't mind having gideon, my only problem is he can't block, but i guess neither can obzedat or whip. Pushing through blockers can be surprisingly useful on chandra, but the fact that I have nothing in my deck to make her ultimate scary makes +1'ing kinda unattractive, also i'm not sure that UWC isn't just straight up better than her. elspeth is obviously good, but I don't know if she's better than aurelia in my deck. She does kill blood baron and can give mono black a hard time, but idk.
Also considering stormbreath, but that card seems so bad to me. I guess if you play it when you know you can have 7 mana next turn it forces your opponent to deal with it immediately and its probably pretty good against UW control with no black or red. still don't kno....
was also thinking about hammer of purphoros. I can support anger of the gods on my mana so I should have no problem with this. Haste ddemons and blood barons sounds pretty good. not to mention that i can still make golems after verdict to pressure control.
The reason you want to play Stormbreath is, other than Obzedat which the mana wont support, its the best creature we can play against control. Yes its not great against a number of decks, but its the best way for most of these builds to steal a game one. If you never play agaisnt Esper and UW then by all means cut it for something else.
The reason you want to play Stormbreath is, other than Obzedat which the mana wont support, its the best creature we can play against control. Yes its not great against a number of decks, but its the best way for most of these builds to steal a game one. If you never play agaisnt Esper and UW then by all means cut it for something else.
I play against UWx a lot, but the concessions needed to be able to beat it game 1 seem a bit too harsh, so I've just accepted I lose game 1 to it and dedicated a lot of my sideboard to fighting it. And for stealing games, I feel like aurelia is more likely to close out against control than stormbreath.
The reason you want to play Stormbreath is, other than Obzedat which the mana wont support, its the best creature we can play against control. Yes its not great against a number of decks, but its the best way for most of these builds to steal a game one. If you never play agaisnt Esper and UW then by all means cut it for something else.
Having played with dragon finally, I like it. Personally he runs really well with keyrunes. Being able to Keyrune turn 3 into a thoughtseize or duress then turn 4 drop dragon then turn 5 into either baron or Aurelia with a potential monstrosity activation on turn 6 is very powerful. I think without a 4 drop, keyrune becomes increasingly more valuable as I find that disruption and ramp to be the best tools for this deck to use. Obzedat is still good, but is looking more and more like a sideboard option everyday. I couldn't cut him entirely but dragon is slowly winning my heart...and fnm's.
So I take back what I said about not being able to beat control game 1. Hammer of Purphoros has given me some hope there. Hasted desecration demons have been pretty good so far (although I've been playing control exclusively... ;_;). And then making a golem they need to deal with every turn after they wipe out your creatures is great, especially since it gives late game lands something to do.
I've also just taken out blood baron for master of cruelties. Blood baron was really there to fight black, but black's game often doesn't care about a 4/4 lifelink, even if they can't kill him (and sometimes they can with timely devour fleshes). They either go really big on rats, which blood baron can't race forever or they play the long game with UWC and gray merchant and since I dropped my own UWC (still not sure if this was a good choice) I can't keep up with them in the long game no matter what. In pretty much every other matchup blood baron just ranges from decent, because he's a body doing some damage after i gain control of the game to outright bad because things bigger than him that aren't black/white don't care about him.
Master of Cruelties might not be the right card either, but I'm trying it out, because I think it goes well Hammer. It's won me one game so far (had hammer out and attacked onto empty board against control after i exhausted a lot of their answers). I would have played stormbreath, but he clashes with hammer since the haste is redundant. I would take suggestions on a 4 or 5 drop to take his place (not obzedat, he doesn't fit my build at all).
I hate the idea of Hammer in this deck. I just went back up to 26 lands after a few FNMs with 25 because the only games I was loosing were to my own decks mana issues. From what I can tell most of the builds people are running are without the soldier of the pantheons, precinct captains, and boros reckoners, and instead are running fewer (8-12), higher impact creatures. And Stormbreath Dragon already has haste. Assuming youre not running the smaller creature package then why would you want to start blowing up your lands? Especially when Hammer could just be another high impact creature/ Elspeth.
Master of cruelties I also dont really understand. It is at best a 2 turn clock, with another creature, but if Master and another creature stick around to kill them, then youre looking at 3 attacks from any 2 random other creatures (2 from what would be the master and 1 from the other). Almost any combination of Alms Beast, Storm Breath, Obzedat, and Blood Baron would be enough to kill the opponent in that situation anyway.
The one reason I could understand running Master, coincidentally, is with Hammer in a build with lots of burn, phoenix's, etc, but thats an entirely different deck.
So I take back what I said about not being able to beat control game 1. Hammer of Purphoros has given me some hope there. Hasted desecration demons have been pretty good so far (although I've been playing control exclusively... ;_;). And then making a golem they need to deal with every turn after they wipe out your creatures is great, especially since it gives late game lands something to do.
I've also just taken out blood baron for master of cruelties. Blood baron was really there to fight black, but black's game often doesn't care about a 4/4 lifelink, even if they can't kill him (and sometimes they can with timely devour fleshes). They either go really big on rats, which blood baron can't race forever or they play the long game with UWC and gray merchant and since I dropped my own UWC (still not sure if this was a good choice) I can't keep up with them in the long game no matter what. In pretty much every other matchup blood baron just ranges from decent, because he's a body doing some damage after i gain control of the game to outright bad because things bigger than him that aren't black/white don't care about him.
Master of Cruelties might not be the right card either, but I'm trying it out, because I think it goes well Hammer. It's won me one game so far (had hammer out and attacked onto empty board against control after i exhausted a lot of their answers). I would have played stormbreath, but he clashes with hammer since the haste is redundant. I would take suggestions on a 4 or 5 drop to take his place (not obzedat, he doesn't fit my build at all).
The reason you are losing Game 1s to control is because you have cut stuff like Blood Baron, Rakdos's Return, Obzedat, and Stormbreath, and are probably running (I can only infer from your previous posts, since you haven't posted your list) a deck that is more geared to beat aggro game 1, which results in more dead cards against control.
Honestly, I don't think it's even worth running this color combo if you are cutting all those cards, as the whole allure (for me anyways) of running this deck is slamming haymakers, must-answer and/or hard to deal with threats backed with disruption and removal.
I find it odd that you are not running Obzedat when it seems like Whip is performing very well for you. He is good without Whip, but when you add in Whip, he's worth running even as a singleton on the off chance you get the combo going. Also, the haste on Stormbreath is not redundant if you don't draw your Hammer.
Hammer of Purphoros is an experiment I could get behind if you absolutely don't want Rakdos's Returns. Once you get to 5 mana, you are usually only playing the extra lands to fuel a large RR, and using them as fodder for the Hammer to make Golem tokens instead serves a similar purpose.
Nylarotop, do you run Elspeth? Also, most of these decks are/should be running Stormbreath Dragon which is wanting you to hit 7 mana. The dragons ultimate is really the clearest path to victory against control this deck has.
And Im not saying Hammer is a bad card, it just doesnt fit with what this deck is built to do. I could definetly get behind a phorphuros, hammer, master, pyromaster, burn deck though.
I hate the idea of Hammer in this deck. I just went back up to 26 lands after a few FNMs with 25 because the only games I was loosing were to my own decks mana issues. From what I can tell most of the builds people are running are without the soldier of the pantheons, precinct captains, and boros reckoners, and instead are running fewer (8-12), higher impact creatures. And Stormbreath Dragon already has haste. Assuming youre not running the smaller creature package then why would you want to start blowing up your lands? Especially when Hammer could just be another high impact creature/ Elspeth.
Master of cruelties I also dont really understand. It is at best a 2 turn clock, with another creature, but if Master and another creature stick around to kill them, then youre looking at 3 attacks from any 2 random other creatures (2 from what would be the master and 1 from the other). Almost any combination of Alms Beast, Storm Breath, Obzedat, and Blood Baron would be enough to kill the opponent in that situation anyway.
The one reason I could understand running Master, coincidentally, is with Hammer in a build with lots of burn, phoenix's, etc, but thats an entirely different deck.
26 lands is a must imo. I don't want to run 8 creatures because I feel weaker in all matchups when I've played that way. Fewer creatures means it takes longer to get blockers against creature decks and less pressure on control, right now each of my creatures (alms beast, desecration demon, master of cruelties for now, elspeth) demands an answer from control. I could be underrating stormbreath, i admit that, but hammer has been putting up good enough results that I don't have the desire to drop 30 bucks on dragons just for testing.
Blowing up your lands is something you really only do against controlly decks. When you run 26 lands your lands become dead draws in the late game and neither black or UW can reasonably control a 3/3 golem a turn. They need to d sphere it or kill you before you get too much value out of it.
In most matchups you are just abusing hasted demons, alms beasts, and master of cruelties, which both creature and control decks have a very hard time dealing with as far as I've seen (I'm only on a few days testing). And aside from elspeth (which I run 2 of atm) our threats aren't going to turn out as much power as hammer does. Oh, I guess assemble could match it, but I don't like playing that card because of how slow it is.
Master of cruelties is yet another 5 drop, I'm trying out, because I'm not really feeling blood baron anymore and obzedat has never been great for me. Stormbreath would be my choice, but I don't like that his haste is redundant with hammer. Also master of cruelties is roughly as good at killing control, minus not being able to dodge some removal, but late game azorius charms are rare (they usually have already blown them all) and d sphering things that aren't hammer works in my favor. I could replace master of cruelties easily, if there's a better choice.
The reason you are losing Game 1s to control is because you have cut stuff like Blood Baron, Rakdos's Return, Obzedat, and Stormbreath, and are probably running (I can only infer from your previous posts, since you haven't posted your list) a deck that is more geared to beat aggro game 1, which results in more dead cards against control.
Honestly, I don't think it's even worth running this color combo if you are cutting all those cards, as the whole allure (for me anyways) of running this deck is slamming haymakers, must-answer and/or hard to deal with threats backed with disruption and removal.
I find it odd that you are not running Obzedat when it seems like Whip is performing very well for you. He is good without Whip, but when you add in Whip, he's worth running even as a singleton on the off chance you get the combo going. Also, the haste on Stormbreath is not redundant if you don't draw your Hammer.
Hammer of Purphoros is an experiment I could get behind if you absolutely don't want Rakdos's Returns. Once you get to 5 mana, you are usually only playing the extra lands to fuel a large RR, and using them as fodder for the Hammer to make Golem tokens instead serves a similar purpose.
Blood baron is not even good against control. He just eats supreme verdict/elspeth minus -3 or gets outraced by aetherling or more blood barons. Obzedat has never really done much for me against control, I just got some obzedats and whips in the mail so even though I gave up on him online, I'll try him again irl and maybe I'll finally see some results from him? Rakdos return, I will admit was pretty damn good against control, but pretty unimpressive against everything else and even with it there, game 1 against control was still pretty unfavorable. I'd say hammer feels equal to rakdos return game 1 against control and I wouldn't run both at the same time.
I never actually hit the obzewhip combo in my games (I missed a chance once, when I played whip into a counter spell to resolve obzedat, when I should have done it the other way around) so I can't actually down play it, but I know it won't come up that often and I'm not even sure what matchups it would win me the game in.
As for why play these colors, I was actually thinking the same thing as I was cutting some of the creatures that have been under-performing for me. I have to say the only creatures that never disappointed me were desecration demon, alms beast, and aurelia. I cut aurelia because of hate+hammer and also I never tested elspeth before so I wanted to give her a shot. I could try a build with 2-3 whips, 2 aurelia, and 3-4 storm breaths. I think that could actually be pretty good against a lot of stuff, but again, I would need to feel the need to drop 30 bucks on stormbreath just to test.
It should be noted that I had a pretty stable build before, but I shook it up a ton when I dropped my 4 underworld connections. Since then, its really not been the same deck, so if you guys are running any kind of draw, keep in mind that I'm not running any in the main. Since that point I feel less like a control deck and a lot more like a beatdown deck.
Nylarotop, do you run Elspeth? Also, most of these decks are/should be running Stormbreath Dragon which is wanting you to hit 7 mana. The dragons ultimate is really the clearest path to victory against control this deck has.
And Im not saying Hammer is a bad card, it just doesnt fit with what this deck is built to do. I could definetly get behind a phorphuros, hammer, master, pyromaster, burn deck though.
I'm running Assemble the Legion over Elspeth because it comes down a turn earlier and is harder to deal with than Elspeth (i.e., mono-black has no answer for it aside from Thoughtseizing it out of your hand). If the meta shifts to more midrange or G/x devotion I could see switching out Assemble for Elspeth to mop up stuff like Smiter, Polukranos, Advent of the Wurm tokens, etc. if need be.
Also,I never advocated against running Stormbreath (I merely mentioned that it's bad against mono-black due to their plethora of removal) nor said I wasn't running any. Here's my creature suite:
Aurelia actually has synergy with Whip if you can find room for both her and Obzedaddy.
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I don't think I can play both of those guys without cutting things my deck actually needs. I think I would want whip against blue devotion, because one hit from one of my guys can put me too far ahead for them to reasonably kill me and lifegain seems good against red devotion which is largely just trying to burn you to death.
Like rdw or red devotion? When I used to play him, I thought he was terrible against aggro decks, because the life gain was minimal and late and he doesn't block. Against red devotion, i could see him being solid, not sure if better than aurelia though (aside from costing less and thus being easier to play).
I'm liking whip a lot so far. I noticed I had a little extra room in my deck after creatures and control and had rakdos return in. I realised, that card is just okay in most matchups and only wins against UWx which I will probably lose game 1 to anyway, so I figured I might as well put in a card that wins more. Whip doesn't take anything away from my deck, but it does give me another way to win games. It also makes it harder for me to be controlled. After playing last night with 2 in main, I found myself wanting to draw it more and never mad when I got it. I could stand to go to 3.
Her Shop on Etsy
THS-KTK: Rabble Red
RTR-THS: Dega Midrange
INN-RTR: Boros Humans
SOM-INN: B/u Control
Modern: Mono-Black Infect
I find that gaining 4-5 lifepoints from an Obzedat/Blood Baron is largely negated when they are smacking you with an active Thassa and a bunch of other unblockable dorks.
I will reconsider siding it out against R/x devotion though, perhaps siding out Underworld Connections instead.
He's not terrible against aggro, you can choose not to blink him and he makes a fine wall to block a lot of the R/x devotion dudes.
Return is good vs midrange and control, and I also leave it in vs mono-U and mono-B, where I usually hit them in smaller increments to keep them off devotion/put them in topdeck mode. It is too good to cut completely (and one of the main reasons for running red) as it is always a live topdeck and just randomly gives you free wins.
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Im still not sold on whip in the deck as you play it for 4 with absolutely no value or board impact right away.
URWTwin
XAffinity
Ill be at the orlando open this weekend though
URWTwin
XAffinity
I would really take any 4 good threats to replace obzedat and whip. Elspeth and Chandra, Liliana, Gideon, or Ajani could go in.
The only issue with the walkers in our colors is that all except Elspeth require a diverse creature base to work around. Since both Dragon and Baron has pro white, Ajani wouldn't make a good fit considering that those would be the threats I would use the ability on. Liliana is limited to grab only swamps which isn't bad, just unnecessary for a turn 4 play. I'd rather just play keyrunes instead. Gideon isn't bad for a beatstick, but if I were to run him I'd rather just run Desecration Demon instead. That leaves Chandra which is remotely relevant with her 0 ability, although her plus 1 isn't so much so. And Elspeth has the ability to stabilize and win on her own so that makes her the ideal pick.
It grants lifelink the moment it hits the battlefield. Even if you only have one creature out, say...an Alms Beast, which I run in my deck. You swing with the beast, if they don't block it's a 12 point life swing in your favor. If they do block, you're gaining 6 life, and your opponent is probably losing a creature. And that's just the first turn it comes down. The lifelink is extremely useful against aggro. The ability to send attackers from your graveyard which had previously been killed or countered is way useful against control, especially with the Obzedat combo. And both have a good chance of coming into play vs. other midrange decks or Mono-B.
I've considered running Ajani in it's place, but I haven't experimented with it much. I really like the idea of granting an Alms Beast or Desecration Demon double strike.
Her Shop on Etsy
THS-KTK: Rabble Red
RTR-THS: Dega Midrange
INN-RTR: Boros Humans
SOM-INN: B/u Control
Modern: Mono-Black Infect
Idk...this isnt a whip deck to me. I have enough removal to where im not worried about aggro. By the time im utilizing whip's lifegain its a win more at that point and its pointless with baron.
4x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Sin Collector
3x Lifebane Zombie
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
Spells
1x Whip of erebos
2x Chained to the rocks
1x Rakdos Keyrune
1x Slaughter Games
2x Warleader's Helix
2x Dreadbore
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Anger of the Gods
4x Thoughtseize
1x Mizzium Mortars
1x Chandra, Pryomaster
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
25 lands
1x Rakdos's Return
2x Assemble the Legion
1x Sin Collector
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Chained to the Rocks
2x Devour Flesh
1x Doom Blade
2x Slaughter Games
1x Wear//Tear
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Pithing Needle
This is what I played at a recent GPT Vancouver. I ended up top 8ing, but losing against a R/g devotion that splashed green for walkers due to not drawing removal.
It was a 6rounder, I went 4-1-1.
I played against Mono B, Mono U, B/W Aggro, Esper Control, Mono Red in the swiss.
Beat Mono B, Mono U, B/W Aggro 2-0, 2-1 against Mono Red
Lost to Esper Control 1-2
****Definitely felt it was due to my own play mistake in game 3 though. I thoughtseized turn 3, took dissolve. Turn 4 I slaughter games for sphinx revelation because he had 1 in his hand. He topdecks blood baron to end me. In hindsight i feel I should have just slaughter games the blood baron and left the sphinx.
Mono B
I felt slaughter gaming away the garys was the key factor in winning that game. Without a way for them to deal direct life loss, they cant keep up with both hand disruption and removal
Mono U
Mainly to keep them off devotion, no need to wait for more then 2 creatures out to anger, just angering when theres a familiar and a tidebinder is good enough. Save chained to the rocks for thassa is what saved me quite a lot during the 2 games.
Mono R
Obzedat, whip and lifebanes really saved me this game. Turn 3 lifebane to rip away reckoners then turn 4 whip.
definitely need more instant speed removals though, I ended up siding out the dreadbores and mizzium mortars for 2 devour + 1 doomblade
B/W Aggro
This match is like getting a bye.... not that i feel the BW deck has 0 chance against BWr, but I tested this deck against a friend of mine for around 50 matches+ both pre and post board. Besides games like getting stuck on 2-3lands, the game win rate was 60 to 40 in favor of BWr. Post board it became 80-20
Esper control
THis is definitely the coin flip game. You really need to win game 1 as after board the game becomes very very long........ Ive had opponents during FNMs where they've won game 1, in game 2 they just sphinx rev and elixir till time. Not saying EVERY control player does that, but it has happened quite a lot of time.
R/g Devotion
This wasnt even a game for me in top 8. with the amount of removal in my deck I think i drew 2 in opening hand and never saw another in game 1. Game 2 I had 3 in opening hand, and that was it. His domri rade kept hitting into creatures every flip, nothing i can do about that.
I wouldn't want to run multiples (I think the place for that is probably B/W control), but I like 1 for the added value, especially since I'm already running Obzedat. Similar to the ISD iteration of the deck which had some build that were running a singleton Unburial Rites.
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Desecration demon is the main reason I wouldn't run ajani. He can be tapped down all the same even if he has double strike. Liliana, I could seriously consider. If she stays out a while you hit all your land drops and you also get to buff your creatures to some absurd number for the kill. I already run max desecration demons so I wouldn't mind having gideon, my only problem is he can't block, but i guess neither can obzedat or whip. Pushing through blockers can be surprisingly useful on chandra, but the fact that I have nothing in my deck to make her ultimate scary makes +1'ing kinda unattractive, also i'm not sure that UWC isn't just straight up better than her. elspeth is obviously good, but I don't know if she's better than aurelia in my deck. She does kill blood baron and can give mono black a hard time, but idk.
Also considering stormbreath, but that card seems so bad to me. I guess if you play it when you know you can have 7 mana next turn it forces your opponent to deal with it immediately and its probably pretty good against UW control with no black or red. still don't kno....
was also thinking about hammer of purphoros. I can support anger of the gods on my mana so I should have no problem with this. Haste ddemons and blood barons sounds pretty good. not to mention that i can still make golems after verdict to pressure control.
I play against UWx a lot, but the concessions needed to be able to beat it game 1 seem a bit too harsh, so I've just accepted I lose game 1 to it and dedicated a lot of my sideboard to fighting it. And for stealing games, I feel like aurelia is more likely to close out against control than stormbreath.
Having played with dragon finally, I like it. Personally he runs really well with keyrunes. Being able to Keyrune turn 3 into a thoughtseize or duress then turn 4 drop dragon then turn 5 into either baron or Aurelia with a potential monstrosity activation on turn 6 is very powerful. I think without a 4 drop, keyrune becomes increasingly more valuable as I find that disruption and ramp to be the best tools for this deck to use. Obzedat is still good, but is looking more and more like a sideboard option everyday. I couldn't cut him entirely but dragon is slowly winning my heart...and fnm's.
I've also just taken out blood baron for master of cruelties. Blood baron was really there to fight black, but black's game often doesn't care about a 4/4 lifelink, even if they can't kill him (and sometimes they can with timely devour fleshes). They either go really big on rats, which blood baron can't race forever or they play the long game with UWC and gray merchant and since I dropped my own UWC (still not sure if this was a good choice) I can't keep up with them in the long game no matter what. In pretty much every other matchup blood baron just ranges from decent, because he's a body doing some damage after i gain control of the game to outright bad because things bigger than him that aren't black/white don't care about him.
Master of Cruelties might not be the right card either, but I'm trying it out, because I think it goes well Hammer. It's won me one game so far (had hammer out and attacked onto empty board against control after i exhausted a lot of their answers). I would have played stormbreath, but he clashes with hammer since the haste is redundant. I would take suggestions on a 4 or 5 drop to take his place (not obzedat, he doesn't fit my build at all).
Master of cruelties I also dont really understand. It is at best a 2 turn clock, with another creature, but if Master and another creature stick around to kill them, then youre looking at 3 attacks from any 2 random other creatures (2 from what would be the master and 1 from the other). Almost any combination of Alms Beast, Storm Breath, Obzedat, and Blood Baron would be enough to kill the opponent in that situation anyway.
The one reason I could understand running Master, coincidentally, is with Hammer in a build with lots of burn, phoenix's, etc, but thats an entirely different deck.
The reason you are losing Game 1s to control is because you have cut stuff like Blood Baron, Rakdos's Return, Obzedat, and Stormbreath, and are probably running (I can only infer from your previous posts, since you haven't posted your list) a deck that is more geared to beat aggro game 1, which results in more dead cards against control.
Honestly, I don't think it's even worth running this color combo if you are cutting all those cards, as the whole allure (for me anyways) of running this deck is slamming haymakers, must-answer and/or hard to deal with threats backed with disruption and removal.
I find it odd that you are not running Obzedat when it seems like Whip is performing very well for you. He is good without Whip, but when you add in Whip, he's worth running even as a singleton on the off chance you get the combo going. Also, the haste on Stormbreath is not redundant if you don't draw your Hammer.
Hammer of Purphoros is an experiment I could get behind if you absolutely don't want Rakdos's Returns. Once you get to 5 mana, you are usually only playing the extra lands to fuel a large RR, and using them as fodder for the Hammer to make Golem tokens instead serves a similar purpose.
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And Im not saying Hammer is a bad card, it just doesnt fit with what this deck is built to do. I could definetly get behind a phorphuros, hammer, master, pyromaster, burn deck though.
26 lands is a must imo. I don't want to run 8 creatures because I feel weaker in all matchups when I've played that way. Fewer creatures means it takes longer to get blockers against creature decks and less pressure on control, right now each of my creatures (alms beast, desecration demon, master of cruelties for now, elspeth) demands an answer from control. I could be underrating stormbreath, i admit that, but hammer has been putting up good enough results that I don't have the desire to drop 30 bucks on dragons just for testing.
Blowing up your lands is something you really only do against controlly decks. When you run 26 lands your lands become dead draws in the late game and neither black or UW can reasonably control a 3/3 golem a turn. They need to d sphere it or kill you before you get too much value out of it.
In most matchups you are just abusing hasted demons, alms beasts, and master of cruelties, which both creature and control decks have a very hard time dealing with as far as I've seen (I'm only on a few days testing). And aside from elspeth (which I run 2 of atm) our threats aren't going to turn out as much power as hammer does. Oh, I guess assemble could match it, but I don't like playing that card because of how slow it is.
Master of cruelties is yet another 5 drop, I'm trying out, because I'm not really feeling blood baron anymore and obzedat has never been great for me. Stormbreath would be my choice, but I don't like that his haste is redundant with hammer. Also master of cruelties is roughly as good at killing control, minus not being able to dodge some removal, but late game azorius charms are rare (they usually have already blown them all) and d sphering things that aren't hammer works in my favor. I could replace master of cruelties easily, if there's a better choice.
Blood baron is not even good against control. He just eats supreme verdict/elspeth minus -3 or gets outraced by aetherling or more blood barons. Obzedat has never really done much for me against control, I just got some obzedats and whips in the mail so even though I gave up on him online, I'll try him again irl and maybe I'll finally see some results from him? Rakdos return, I will admit was pretty damn good against control, but pretty unimpressive against everything else and even with it there, game 1 against control was still pretty unfavorable. I'd say hammer feels equal to rakdos return game 1 against control and I wouldn't run both at the same time.
I never actually hit the obzewhip combo in my games (I missed a chance once, when I played whip into a counter spell to resolve obzedat, when I should have done it the other way around) so I can't actually down play it, but I know it won't come up that often and I'm not even sure what matchups it would win me the game in.
As for why play these colors, I was actually thinking the same thing as I was cutting some of the creatures that have been under-performing for me. I have to say the only creatures that never disappointed me were desecration demon, alms beast, and aurelia. I cut aurelia because of hate+hammer and also I never tested elspeth before so I wanted to give her a shot. I could try a build with 2-3 whips, 2 aurelia, and 3-4 storm breaths. I think that could actually be pretty good against a lot of stuff, but again, I would need to feel the need to drop 30 bucks on stormbreath just to test.
It should be noted that I had a pretty stable build before, but I shook it up a ton when I dropped my 4 underworld connections. Since then, its really not been the same deck, so if you guys are running any kind of draw, keep in mind that I'm not running any in the main. Since that point I feel less like a control deck and a lot more like a beatdown deck.
I'm running Assemble the Legion over Elspeth because it comes down a turn earlier and is harder to deal with than Elspeth (i.e., mono-black has no answer for it aside from Thoughtseizing it out of your hand). If the meta shifts to more midrange or G/x devotion I could see switching out Assemble for Elspeth to mop up stuff like Smiter, Polukranos, Advent of the Wurm tokens, etc. if need be.
Also,I never advocated against running Stormbreath (I merely mentioned that it's bad against mono-black due to their plethora of removal) nor said I wasn't running any. Here's my creature suite:
Oddly enough, I think I have yet to go monstrous with Stormbreath though.
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