I personally don't like Rootborn Defenses against MonoB because it requires so much mana and they'll be ripping your hand apart with Thoughtseize and Lifebane Zombie anyways. I've even had Duress sided against me to take my Advent of the Wurm and Selesnya Charms. It can be a blowout if you manage to populate a Wurm or Voice token, but you still run the risk of having your creatures removed and left with a hand of Rootborn Defenses/Charm/Gods Willing. Gods Willing I do like against them a lot since you get protection from removal and can even use it to get past their creatures for just a single mana.
I think I also like Celestial Flare against them but I'm not 100% sure. It's another way to get rid of Demon or a Lifebane/Nightveil if we really need to. Lifebane getting in for 3 every turn is more annoying than you'd think.
Everything else is pretty much just seconding what Redirus said. Especially on Glare in the Hexproof matchup; it hits a lot of their problem enchantments like Ethereal Armor, Eidolon of Countless Battles, and Unflinching Courage + Gift, which we need to get rid of or race with our own.
Thanks for the comments. I find it strange, but I face very little MUD locally. Everything I read suggests it's still a thing, but it hasn't stuck around here. Of course, the pro-blue things are also good against UW Control which I do run into.
I like the +2 Banisher Priest and +2 Celestial Flare for -2 Plummet and -2 Last Breath suggestions.
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I personally don't like Rootborn Defenses against MonoB because it requires so much mana and they'll be ripping your hand apart with Thoughtseize and Lifebane Zombie anyways. I've even had Duress sided against me to take my Advent of the Wurm and Selesnya Charms. It can be a blowout if you manage to populate a Wurm or Voice token, but you still run the risk of having your creatures removed and left with a hand of Rootborn Defenses/Charm/Gods Willing. Gods Willing I do like against them a lot since you get protection from removal and can even use it to get past their creatures for just a single mana.
I think I also like Celestial Flare against them but I'm not 100% sure. It's another way to get rid of Demon or a Lifebane/Nightveil if we really need to. Lifebane getting in for 3 every turn is more annoying than you'd think.
Everything else is pretty much just seconding what Redirus said. Especially on Glare in the Hexproof matchup; it hits a lot of their problem enchantments like Ethereal Armor, Eidolon of Countless Battles, and Unflinching Courage + Gift, which we need to get rid of or race with our own.
Celestial Flare against Mono Black for lifebane is something I never realized. Having that 3 a turn IS VERY annoying. I'll have to remember that. Usually I dont board anything in against MB.
vs Control +2 Mistcutter, +2 Skylasher, +2 Rootborn, +2 Glare; I'm at a bit of a loss for what to remove. -2 Spear of Heliod, -4 Selesnya Charm, -2 Soldier of the Panteon (maybe..?)
I'm not sure about Glare, it hits D-Sphere and Elspeth, but sometimes it's better to just ignore D-Sphere (play another threat instead of removing D-Sphere). I'm not sure about coming back once Elspeth hits the field, so maybe we don't need Glare.
vs Mono B +2 Celestial Flare; -2 Advent(?) The idea being to play cheaper threats since there will be a lot of 1-for-1 going on.
vs Hexproof +3 Unflnching, +2 Celestial Flare, +2 Glare of Heresy; -4 Selesnya Charm, -2 Spear of Heliod, -1 Gods Willing
vs GR Monsters +2 Celestial Flare, +2 Banisher Priest; -4 Soldier of the Pantheon (blanked by Caryatid)
vs Mono U +2 Skylasher, +2 Mistcutter, +3 Unflinching, +2 Banisher Priest; -4 Advent of the Wurm, -1 Selesnya Charm, -4 Soldier of the Pantheon
vs Aggro +3 Unflinching; -3 Selesnya Charm.
I'm really unsure about the removals. Help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
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vs Control +2 Mistcutter, +2 Skylasher, +2 Rootborn, +2 Glare; I'm at a bit of a loss for what to remove. -2 Spear of Heliod, -4 Selesnya Charm, -2 Soldier of the Panteon (maybe..?)
I'm not sure about Glare, it hits D-Sphere and Elspeth, but sometimes it's better to just ignore D-Sphere (play another threat instead of removing D-Sphere). I'm not sure about coming back once Elspeth hits the field, so maybe we don't need Glare.[/quote]
Charm can count as a flash creature or pump you over Elspeth so I'd hesitate on removing it. I personally would take out the God's Willing and Spear, and maybe one Charm or Soldier. I kind of feel the same way about Glare; I have won games because of getting a Lion back but that's anecdotal and I don't know if it's better than just playing another threat. Problem is they're fine with 1-for-1ing us with Sphere and if they exile a Token then why even bother? Elspeth is really hard to fight through without some sort of miraculous combat trick. Not sure.
vs Mono B +2 Celestial Flare; -2 Advent(?) The idea being to play cheaper threats since there will be a lot of 1-for-1 going on.
Nonono, Advent is one of our best creatures; never cut it. I'd cut 2 Soldiers since they die to all of their removal and are walled by all their creatures.
vs Hexproof +3 Unflnching, +2 Celestial Flare, +2 Glare of Heresy; -4 Selesnya Charm, -2 Spear of Heliod, -1 Gods Willing
Seems good.
vs GR Monsters +2 Celestial Flare, +2 Banisher Priest; -4 Soldier of the Pantheon (blanked by Caryatid)
I'd also cut Gods Willing for Unflinching Courage but I don't know how often you plan on alpha-striking with a pro-Green creature.
vs Mono U +2 Skylasher, +2 Mistcutter, +3 Unflinching, +2 Banisher Priest; -4 Advent of the Wurm, -1 Selesnya Charm, -4 Soldier of the Pantheon
Again, Advent is too good. This is going to sound crazy, but cut Voice of Resurgence. MonoU doesn't care too much about casting spells on our turn and it's hard to trade with their creatures. I think I like Soldier more than Experiment One due to anti-Tidebinder and protection from 12 of their creatures. It has its uses versus monoU...but I think I would cut Gods Willing again. We usually try to race them as quickly as possible. Spear I have not played with so I can't make the call on how good it is here. Just don't cut Charm because it kills Thassa and can surprise block a greedy Tidebinder or Master.
vs Aggro +3 Unflinching; -3 Selesnya Charm.
Depends on the type of aggro but reasonable. Sometimes I like to cut Boon Satyr instead due to presence of First Strike or burn. You also definitely want to get Banisher Priest in on the action here. Gods Willing is also a reasonable cut; against white decks you risk discarding your own Unflinching Courage, against Red decks Courage has built-in protection from their burn, against Black it probably stays in.
Thanks, I totally overlooked removing Gods Willing in a number of matches. This is why I like to talk it out (and write it down). Significantly reduces SB mistakes, at least for me.
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On another note, now that the set has been spoiled, anyone see anything notable to the deck?
There's not much in green. It seems to be the enchantment color of this set. Bassara Tower Archer is great for Hexproof strategies. I was hoping for Rancor again but maybe that would have been too good.
Reprisal seems good against Monsters. But really I'm (probably over)excited that we get O-ring back in the form of Banishing Light. I'll gladly drop Banisher Priest for it as I find that the 2/2 body is rarely positive in this deck and usually a drawback such as against Mono-Black. Godsend might be great but it could also be too slow.
And of course Mana Confluence allows us to play 3 colors easier.
And of course Mana Confluence allows us to play 3 colors easier.
It will also make two colors easier to play. Especially when you've got two one drops that require different colors and a few two drops that require two different colored mana.
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My try with Selesnya aggro post Nyx release, I really think Gyre Sage is a good addition to the deck, and allow us to play both Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and Ajani's Presence with maximum efficiency.
Sideboard is not complete.
My try with Selesnya aggro post Nyx release, I really think Gyre Sage is a good addition to the deck, and allow us to play both Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and Ajani's Presence with maximum efficiency.
Sideboard is not complete.
I think my biggest problem with this list is that it looks more mid-rangey but you don't have much in the way of midrange. What does your Gyre Sage propel you into, besides a bigger World Eater? And is that where you want to be with Stormbreath Dragon pounding you for 4 and about to monstrous for 7, and they have chump mana dorks for days? I'm still thinking about my list - I'm not sure if Banishing Light deserves a place in our 75 when we already have Banisher Priest (which I am already not using).
I have been toying with an idea of a midrangey deck that plays Collective Blessing, Spear of Heliod and the new flash +2/+2 to all your creatures enchantment. Just play cheap creatures, Launch the Fleets, Elspeth and global pumps. Add Unflinching Courage and Trostani and it'll be brutal to beat, especially in the first few weeks when people are sorting things out.
Thinking more on it, aggro is still the way to go. Control has gained a lot and I expect to see more of in the future. We have to contend with more removal (4x God's Willing) and that stupid 0/5 Sheep thing. We'll just have to attack into it and hope to grow our dudes with Ajani or get a Wurm on deck fast.
I've found Banisher Priest to be necessary against GR Monsters and Mono-Blue decks, but the body is often a liability. Banishing Light seems to be an upgrade in that it doesn't die to all the creature removal...but enchantment removal might start becoming much more common. The main thing is that it is very good against MonoB whereas Banisher Priest is not, but that deck may evolve somehow in JOU. Likewise, it also is good against control's walkers whereas Priest did nothing against them, and is even better against Monsters since it can't get burned/removed/World Eaten and can hit their walkers as well.
I dunno how good Nyx-Fleece Ram really is but it seems killer against aggro decks. It might see some sideboard play, but it's worse against us than other aggro decks since we can Charm a 3/3 to kill it, but it still feels bad. It would sort of reinforce my decision to play Naya for Ghor-Clan Rampagers but either way it feels bad to have to burn a card to get rid of a guy that soaks up 5 damage for them, maybe more due to lifegain.
G/W aggro is consistent. If you don't mull aggressively and intelligently, you can feel it's a lot of luck. But if you play the deck correctly, it is plenty consistent. It does not conk out on you more often than other decks - even control players can draw into nothing and just lose.
As for the midrange deck, it would be purely FNM. Not competitive because it will just fold to certain decks. Not aggro - aggro would get hosed by the G/W midrange - but other decks like anything playing Supreme Verdict.
I think Quacker is referring to a hypothetical midrange version. The problem with GW Midrange is that our colors don't have a lot of things to do in the midrange. The best midrange cards we have are Advent of the Wurm (a 4-of in any GW deck anyways) and Archangel of Thune. Ajani's good but he isn't a threat by himself like Elspeth can be. Waiting to play threats gives mono-black time to stabilize and draw removal, and control to dig for answers and obstacles. The aggro deck has a really hard time fighting through Elspeth, and I don't think the midrange version would fare much better. Hell, even Kiora is a decent obstacle if they can keep us off having more than one creature.
Meanwhile GW Aggro is probably the aggro deck most resilient against Verdict. We run 12 flash creatures, 8 of which can come down on the draw off 3 mana. A 3-power Experiment One regenerates through it. Voice of Resurgence gives you a guy afterwards. Post board we have access to Rootborn Defenses (almost always a blowout against a Verdict) and Mistcutter Hydra for hasty beats...yeah.
I dont understand how people run Advent of the wurm and not rootborn defenses in the main. the populate is simply a BONUS to the indestructability it provides. it effectively is a counter to supreme verdict, the almighty "uncounterable" board wipe. I honestly cannot fathom any legitimate reasoning for not maining as many rootborns as wurms.
As for the midrange deck, it would be purely FNM. Not competitive because it will just fold to certain decks. Not aggro - aggro would get hosed by the G/W midrange - but other decks like anything playing Supreme Verdict.
I think Quacker is referring to a hypothetical midrange version.
There is a mid-range GW deck in the OP of this primer, it includes Advent, Archangel, Trostani, and Scavenging Ooze. The opening poster opines that it kills aggro but does not do well against control.
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There have been several ventures into midrange territory early in Theros block, but not really since then. The biggest problem with control was that your threats were still too slow and vulnerable. Less planeswalker options and no haste is enough for the deck not to quite get there despite having some resilient early drops still available to it. Adding a 3rd colour splash resolves these problems almost completely but wasn't really an option before because of the heavy green and (especially) white requirements. Now with Confluence offset by GW's natural life gaining ability might actually make a core GW splash x deck reasonable. I mean the only reason you couldn't do Naya or Junk feasibly before was that the early double white requirement made that 3rd color almost impossible. When comparing to like Jund they never asked for early double red or even black by the 3rd mana source.
Rootborn Defenses, while cute as a trick and as a mechanism behind the token deck isn't versatile enough. If it were GW Midrange would be a thing before now. Having 4 Advents doesn't make it good enough. Even 4 Advent and 4 Voice. And at 3 mana it puts a constraint on mana. Unlike say something like Golgari Charm you can't as easily find a window to just use it if everything doesn't line up. Like you can always take out a Detention Sphere or clear out some Elspeth Tokens. Same thing with Boros Charm. Both are cheaper as well.
What GW Midrange needs is a good planeswalker under 6 mana. I'm not sure new Ajani is up to the task. Maybe old Ajani is still ok. But ideally I mean Garruk Primal Hunter, Gideon Jura, the previous 2 Elspeths good. Otherwise I think the 3rd colour is necessary for midrange.
Like I said before, consistency is not GW aggros problem. GWs problem is if G/R or Jund draws the nuts, you cannot win with your nuts hands. End of story. You can selesnya charm away their Polukranos and then they play another and then a Stormbreath and then you're just screwed while you drop a Loxodon Smiter and lose.
Rootborn is an OK card, and may be main deckable in some metas, but with GW aggro not so much. It's a dead card unless you have tokens on the table or the other side is actually packing mass removal. Also costs 3, which is awkward when your best token costs 4. Midrange loses to control. Say it with me. Midrange loses to control. Midrange wins against creature decks with the fatties it can drop. Midrange wins against aggro because your Voice is soon eclipsed by Arbor Colossus. Your deck is in a limbo between midrange and control. Maybe you've struck the perfect balance and I'm too obstinate to try it, but your list looks terribad. You have Courser and Gyre Sage to fix mana to cast....a 4 drop Polukranos?
Gyre Sage is a bad card and I don't know why you keep defending it.
I dont understand how people run Advent of the wurm and not rootborn defenses in the main. the populate is simply a BONUS to the indestructability it provides. it effectively is a counter to supreme verdict, the almighty "uncounterable" board wipe. I honestly cannot fathom any legitimate reasoning for not maining as many rootborns as wurms.
You should try it yourself. All I can say is that I tried variants of GW with Rootborn Defenses, but there are too many cases in which Rootborn Defenses is a dead card.
You need to come to a point where you have a developed board and also happen to leave three mana open for it. That can actually be difficult, especially if you draw Rootborn Defenses too early and it just sits in your hand while you play what other stuff you have and get that destroyed.
The dream scenario with a Wurm token out and a ready Rootborn Defenses in your hand sure is nice (and not hyper Christmas Land like a lot of other combos), but absolutely nothing you should bank on.
Even if you flash your Wurm in during the end of your opponent's turn , your opponent can just respond with spot removal. If you safely want to pull of this "combo", you'd need seven mana.
As for my "midrange" version:
it has very decent matchups against creature-based decks and an okay-ish matchup vs. Control, I think.
With Banishing Light, we now have one more answer to Elspeth. Before we had to rely on a flashed in Wurm in response and get her off the table with help of Trample and other creatures attacking (alternatively a well timed Selesnya Charm), OR play Ajani immediately next turn and use his minus-ability to kill Elspeth.
Also, I think Gyre Sage + Chronicler of Heroes and Courser of Kruphix are very important and powerful cards that stabilize our games a lot more.
Those three cards help with: mana fixing whilte still becoming a threat (Gyre Sage), card draw (Chronicler) and card quality/more gas (Courser).
I don't know why this version of GW is not liked so much.
If it's the other, "more normal" midrange version you're talking about... yeah, sure, I don't like that one at all. I moved on from Loxodon Smiters and Trostanis a long time ago since they just aren't good enough.
As you can see this is basically just a mono green aggro shell splashing white for advent, voice and fleecemane. Of course this is still open to changes like switching the Elvish Mystic to Experiment One or Dryad Militant although a T2 Witchstalker is quite tempting.
Courser is, I don't know. Yes it doesn't suit an aggro shell and basically I'm not ramping into anything nor need fixing but the thing is, it somehow pseudo filters your draw wherein you can play the land instead of drawing it the next turn, lessening your chances of flooding.
For the manabase, I'm not really sure if Mana Confluence is needed YET.
Gyre Sage isn't necessarily a bad card it just doesn't fit in decks that tend to want to play Experiment One. For a short time the Chronicler deck was doing that plan but it was purely for counter density. The timing of Gyre Sage is more like the timing of Devotion, it just sort of creeps up on you. Any deck that is dedicating slots to Experiment One probably doesn't want to slow down around 2. Gyre Sage plays a lot better with Elvish Mystic or really no one drop at all. The reason is it lets you play higher density of threats while still developing your mana. It's slower, but the average rate of cards in your deck is higher. It's a bit like Scavenging Ooze in that sense.
As for the Chronicler versions, I think it's fine but I think it's outdated tech. Chronicler is a fairly bad card (in the sort of way Reaper of the Wilds is a fairly bad card), the only reason it's in talks is that there is so little value that a 3/3 that may draw you a card is just bonkers in a format where there is nothing even remotely in that range. No Borderland Rangers, not Seagate Oracles. So much to the point that when it draws a card it feels like the most powerful thing in the world. Unfortunately it really isn't especially for every time you don't. It might still have a spot but I think Courser of Kruphix sort of bumped it down to 5-8. At which point if you are aggressive enough maybe Boon Satyr is doing more work.
I agree that Banishing Light changes a lot for midrange builds. However, I think control probably still stays on Detention Sphere which is the better card. Yes we can sort jockey back and forth for whose is on the table but D-Sphere wins in the end (we saw this when O-Ring was legal). Still it's enough that say splashing black for Abrupt Decay or Golgari Charm is less incentivized. There is no reason for midrange decks to lose to control if they are made aggressively enough. You don't have to win the game super fast, but you have to play out in a way that allows you to keep initiative. I'm not sure the current card pool has all the tools to do that to be sure. The thing is looking at it I can say with a fair amount of certainty pre JOU GW midrange is not good enough. I don't mean that in a metagame sense. I mean that fundamental matchups are low enough that it just isn't a contender. I could say something similar about GW aggro I suppose too. So if you think in either case that these are viable something fundamental must have changed. More likely due to cards in the deck not to metagame changes. So presenting the same lists from pre-JOU without updates isn't going to be sufficient. Even adding a couple cards isn't enough unless there is something fundamentally improved.
I look at it like this. Generally what I do in every Standard format is create Gx aggro midrange decks that beat other midrange decks and control decks. Beating aggro is trivial for these decks so I usually don't focus on that (and sometimes that's my undoing). It's probably why I don't play my Gx aggro since Gx aggro has a hard time beating midrange since it can be the slowest of the aggro decks or too pile on. Like white weenie without as many global tricks.
What were GW Midrange problems up til now:
1. Inability to remove or being forced to using cards under the expected rate (like Selesnya Charm) or conditional with heavier mana requirements (Celestial Flare) other expensive opposing threats Elspeth, Stormbreath Dragon, Archangel of Thune, Desecration Demon
2. Threats in the mid game with immediate effect or resilient threats. Ie.. Everything can be doom bladed before it does anything.
3. An incentive to play out to the board, creating a tension between more powerful threats and resilient cheap creatures with limited slots (more slots taken to ramp, top end threats). Making sweepers particularly problematic.
4. Depending on the decision in #3 inability to actually deal with opposing critical mass board states like the mirror or Devotion.
1. Has been dealt with sufficiently. It's not as good as having Condemn, or Path, and Stormbreath is still problematic but maybe it's enough. Atleast from a control/midrange perspective. The real concern is if B starts maindecking enchantment removal. I don't think the tempo gain will be sufficient. Like if BW plays Deicide or BG plays Abrupt Decay (even worse) it's just all upside for them. So a small bump but probably not enough on it's own. This card makes a far bigger dent for decks like WW who really leverage the tempo, or non-blue white big midrange decks like Naya Control or Junk who play a chock full of removal already and just needed a hit all to bridge it.
2. Nothing new here except new Ajani.. Maybe good enough.. maybe not.
3. This is still problematic. New Ajani helps a bit, but you really want is Manlands, or like Gavony Township, or like Triumph of Ferocity or Domri.. Little Ajani is still a thingbut the effect isn't that immediate. Does Mana Confluence make Mutavault playable? Is mutavault even high enough rate for this deck.. probably not.
4. Still problematic. You set yourself up to beat other critical mass decks by critically massing but then you lose out to control a bit. You don't and you are at the mercy of your opponent stumbling, something I'm expecting far less of in the new format. Settessian Tactics could help but only if you are playing big enough anyway.
In short I don't see how adding a couple Mana Confluences and Banishing Lights actually does nearly enough. Not really even close. I think there is a need to dig a bit deeper. I don't see GW being the new thing in the current form. Aggro got a bit smoother of a curve which helps considerably (although maybe not as much as it helps other 2 colour aggro strategies) but midrange while getting that hasn't figured out how to leverage it yet I believe. If anything Mana Confluence should make the decks more ambitious and less middling. Like why even play a midrange version if you can't overcome #3 and handle #4. As I said a 3rd colour solves almost all 4 of those issues and wasn't a viable option before. That is much more fundamental. #2 is still the part that plagues these decks even with the 3rd color. It almost always pushes you into red or black just to have haste which feels at odds often with why you play white. Maybe there is a way to solve all that but I'd start by addressing those 4 issues.
EDIT: While not explicitly GW this is how I'd answer those 4 questions today:
Big Ajani might just be wrong. I think this deck probably still has issues with Pack Rat since black can kill Caryatid which makes my faux blue splash not applicable there. It's possibel the format has sped up enough that Cyclonic Rift is no longer needed to deal with random slow Gx strategies.
Has anyone tested with Bassara Tower Archer or Sightless Brawler? I think with life bane zombie running around any creatures in our hand after turn three is fragile.
If we can front load or threats and become balls to the wall aggro and then voltron or Tower Archer we can put alot of pressure on our opponent?
I dont understand how people run Advent of the wurm and not rootborn defenses in the main. the populate is simply a BONUS to the indestructability it provides. it effectively is a counter to supreme verdict, the almighty "uncounterable" board wipe. I honestly cannot fathom any legitimate reasoning for not maining as many rootborns as wurms.
You should try it yourself. All I can say is that I tried variants of GW with Rootborn Defenses, but there are too many cases in which Rootborn Defenses is a dead card.
You need to come to a point where you have a developed board and also happen to leave three mana open for it. That can actually be difficult, especially if you draw Rootborn Defenses too early and it just sits in your hand while you play what other stuff you have and get that destroyed.
The dream scenario with a Wurm token out and a ready Rootborn Defenses in your hand sure is nice (and not hyper Christmas Land like a lot of other combos), but absolutely nothing you should bank on.
Even if you flash your Wurm in during the end of your opponent's turn , your opponent can just respond with spot removal. If you safely want to pull of this "combo", you'd need seven mana.
As for my "midrange" version:
it has very decent matchups against creature-based decks and an okay-ish matchup vs. Control, I think.
With Banishing Light, we now have one more answer to Elspeth. Before we had to rely on a flashed in Wurm in response and get her off the table with help of Trample and other creatures attacking (alternatively a well timed Selesnya Charm), OR play Ajani immediately next turn and use his minus-ability to kill Elspeth.
Also, I think Gyre Sage + Chronicler of Heroes and Courser of Kruphix are very important and powerful cards that stabilize our games a lot more.
Those three cards help with: mana fixing whilte still becoming a threat (Gyre Sage), card draw (Chronicler) and card quality/more gas (Courser).
I don't know why this version of GW is not liked so much.
If it's the other, "more normal" midrange version you're talking about... yeah, sure, I don't like that one at all. I moved on from Loxodon Smiters and Trostanis a long time ago since they just aren't good enough.
I've been playing a build with 3 rootborn and 3 advent. Rootborn Defenses is usually never dead. You don't need to populate for it to pay off. It gives all your creatures indestructible, which is almost ALWAYS useful. It means you can block with all your creatures, surprise your opponent with double blocks, or it's saving your creatures from a kill spell, or maybe even from a wipe. I've used it to save Polukranos (and other high power creatures) from Elsbeth minus, while killing their entire board.
I also run 3 Selesnya's Charm which is used to create the token if I don't open any better 2 drops, making it a target for populate. But, keep in mind that populate is just EXTRA. Yes, without Advent and Charm, I would not be maining rootborn, but that isn't the case. I can see justification for only running 2 rootborn, because you're right, SOMETIMES it sucks to draw multiples... But you can use this argument with any card. And I emphasize "sometimes" because there is games where I've had an advent token on board and drawn all 3 rootborns for game. Obviously, this isn't a common scenario, but none-the-less it happens.
Using the logic that "you'll need 7 mana" to pull off advent + rootborn, for rootborn to be viable, is severely flawed. It's the equivalent of saying you shouldn't run creatures because they are going to be killed by a kill spell because you can't protect them. Furthermore, is polukranos not worth running? If I drop him on turn 4, he might get hit with a kill spell! ... Do you see the flawed logic?
Most of the time, lets pick black since they have the most kill spells, they aren't going to be saving open mana for the possibility that G/W is dropping an advent. They are putting creatures on the board and dealing with it next turn, making running rootborn very sensible, as they waste a kill spell, and you populate.
And honestly, have you given Rootborn in the main a roll recently? If you get a rootborn off with an advent on board, that's usually ******* game. Who can deal with 2 5/5's with trample, when you just wasted a kill spell to try to get rid of the first one?
It baffles me that no one is using Plummet in their SB. Its still legal if I'm not mistaken.
Personally, I run arbor colossus and sylvan primordial over plummet, because my g/w ramps to 5 cmc with mystic and carytid, and arbor colossus stays on the board to continue to deal with flying threats, where plummet is a one time kill spell.
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I think I also like Celestial Flare against them but I'm not 100% sure. It's another way to get rid of Demon or a Lifebane/Nightveil if we really need to. Lifebane getting in for 3 every turn is more annoying than you'd think.
Everything else is pretty much just seconding what Redirus said. Especially on Glare in the Hexproof matchup; it hits a lot of their problem enchantments like Ethereal Armor, Eidolon of Countless Battles, and Unflinching Courage + Gift, which we need to get rid of or race with our own.
I like the +2 Banisher Priest and +2 Celestial Flare for -2 Plummet and -2 Last Breath suggestions.
Celestial Flare against Mono Black for lifebane is something I never realized. Having that 3 a turn IS VERY annoying. I'll have to remember that. Usually I dont board anything in against MB.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
4 Experiment One
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Boon Satyr
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
7 Forest
8 Plains
4 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Plenty
Spells (13)
4 Advent of the Wurm
3 Gods Willing
4 Selesnya Charm
2 Spear Of Heliod
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Skylasher
3 Unflinching Courage
2 Banisher Priest
2 Celestial Flare
2 Rootborn Defenses
2 Glare of Heresy
So, working with this SB:
vs Control +2 Mistcutter, +2 Skylasher, +2 Rootborn, +2 Glare; I'm at a bit of a loss for what to remove. -2 Spear of Heliod, -4 Selesnya Charm, -2 Soldier of the Panteon (maybe..?)
I'm not sure about Glare, it hits D-Sphere and Elspeth, but sometimes it's better to just ignore D-Sphere (play another threat instead of removing D-Sphere). I'm not sure about coming back once Elspeth hits the field, so maybe we don't need Glare.
vs Mono B +2 Celestial Flare; -2 Advent(?) The idea being to play cheaper threats since there will be a lot of 1-for-1 going on.
vs Hexproof +3 Unflnching, +2 Celestial Flare, +2 Glare of Heresy; -4 Selesnya Charm, -2 Spear of Heliod, -1 Gods Willing
vs GR Monsters +2 Celestial Flare, +2 Banisher Priest; -4 Soldier of the Pantheon (blanked by Caryatid)
vs Mono U +2 Skylasher, +2 Mistcutter, +3 Unflinching, +2 Banisher Priest; -4 Advent of the Wurm, -1 Selesnya Charm, -4 Soldier of the Pantheon
vs Aggro +3 Unflinching; -3 Selesnya Charm.
I'm really unsure about the removals. Help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
I'm not sure about Glare, it hits D-Sphere and Elspeth, but sometimes it's better to just ignore D-Sphere (play another threat instead of removing D-Sphere). I'm not sure about coming back once Elspeth hits the field, so maybe we don't need Glare.[/quote]
Charm can count as a flash creature or pump you over Elspeth so I'd hesitate on removing it. I personally would take out the God's Willing and Spear, and maybe one Charm or Soldier. I kind of feel the same way about Glare; I have won games because of getting a Lion back but that's anecdotal and I don't know if it's better than just playing another threat. Problem is they're fine with 1-for-1ing us with Sphere and if they exile a Token then why even bother? Elspeth is really hard to fight through without some sort of miraculous combat trick. Not sure.
Nonono, Advent is one of our best creatures; never cut it. I'd cut 2 Soldiers since they die to all of their removal and are walled by all their creatures.
Seems good.
I'd also cut Gods Willing for Unflinching Courage but I don't know how often you plan on alpha-striking with a pro-Green creature.
Again, Advent is too good. This is going to sound crazy, but cut Voice of Resurgence. MonoU doesn't care too much about casting spells on our turn and it's hard to trade with their creatures. I think I like Soldier more than Experiment One due to anti-Tidebinder and protection from 12 of their creatures. It has its uses versus monoU...but I think I would cut Gods Willing again. We usually try to race them as quickly as possible. Spear I have not played with so I can't make the call on how good it is here. Just don't cut Charm because it kills Thassa and can surprise block a greedy Tidebinder or Master.
Depends on the type of aggro but reasonable. Sometimes I like to cut Boon Satyr instead due to presence of First Strike or burn. You also definitely want to get Banisher Priest in on the action here. Gods Willing is also a reasonable cut; against white decks you risk discarding your own Unflinching Courage, against Red decks Courage has built-in protection from their burn, against Black it probably stays in.
There's not much in green. It seems to be the enchantment color of this set. Bassara Tower Archer is great for Hexproof strategies. I was hoping for Rancor again but maybe that would have been too good.
Reprisal seems good against Monsters. But really I'm (probably over)excited that we get O-ring back in the form of Banishing Light. I'll gladly drop Banisher Priest for it as I find that the 2/2 body is rarely positive in this deck and usually a drawback such as against Mono-Black. Godsend might be great but it could also be too slow.
And of course Mana Confluence allows us to play 3 colors easier.
It will also make two colors easier to play. Especially when you've got two one drops that require different colors and a few two drops that require two different colored mana.
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4 Experiment One
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Fleecemane Lion
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Boon Satyr
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
3 Gyre Sage
4 Selesnya Charm
3 Ajani's Presence
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
4 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Plenty
2 Mana Confluence
7 Plains
6 Forest
3 Unflinching Courage
2 Skylasher
2 Mistcutter Hydra
Big AJani is too slow and sage sucks without support. Have fun testing. Sincerely, Chronicle of heroes
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
I have been toying with an idea of a midrangey deck that plays Collective Blessing, Spear of Heliod and the new flash +2/+2 to all your creatures enchantment. Just play cheap creatures, Launch the Fleets, Elspeth and global pumps. Add Unflinching Courage and Trostani and it'll be brutal to beat, especially in the first few weeks when people are sorting things out.
Thinking more on it, aggro is still the way to go. Control has gained a lot and I expect to see more of in the future. We have to contend with more removal (4x God's Willing) and that stupid 0/5 Sheep thing. We'll just have to attack into it and hope to grow our dudes with Ajani or get a Wurm on deck fast.
I dunno how good Nyx-Fleece Ram really is but it seems killer against aggro decks. It might see some sideboard play, but it's worse against us than other aggro decks since we can Charm a 3/3 to kill it, but it still feels bad. It would sort of reinforce my decision to play Naya for Ghor-Clan Rampagers but either way it feels bad to have to burn a card to get rid of a guy that soaks up 5 damage for them, maybe more due to lifegain.
As for the midrange deck, it would be purely FNM. Not competitive because it will just fold to certain decks. Not aggro - aggro would get hosed by the G/W midrange - but other decks like anything playing Supreme Verdict.
Meanwhile GW Aggro is probably the aggro deck most resilient against Verdict. We run 12 flash creatures, 8 of which can come down on the draw off 3 mana. A 3-power Experiment One regenerates through it. Voice of Resurgence gives you a guy afterwards. Post board we have access to Rootborn Defenses (almost always a blowout against a Verdict) and Mistcutter Hydra for hasty beats...yeah.
I dont understand how people run Advent of the wurm and not rootborn defenses in the main. the populate is simply a BONUS to the indestructability it provides. it effectively is a counter to supreme verdict, the almighty "uncounterable" board wipe. I honestly cannot fathom any legitimate reasoning for not maining as many rootborns as wurms.
K
There is a mid-range GW deck in the OP of this primer, it includes Advent, Archangel, Trostani, and Scavenging Ooze. The opening poster opines that it kills aggro but does not do well against control.
Rootborn Defenses, while cute as a trick and as a mechanism behind the token deck isn't versatile enough. If it were GW Midrange would be a thing before now. Having 4 Advents doesn't make it good enough. Even 4 Advent and 4 Voice. And at 3 mana it puts a constraint on mana. Unlike say something like Golgari Charm you can't as easily find a window to just use it if everything doesn't line up. Like you can always take out a Detention Sphere or clear out some Elspeth Tokens. Same thing with Boros Charm. Both are cheaper as well.
What GW Midrange needs is a good planeswalker under 6 mana. I'm not sure new Ajani is up to the task. Maybe old Ajani is still ok. But ideally I mean Garruk Primal Hunter, Gideon Jura, the previous 2 Elspeths good. Otherwise I think the 3rd colour is necessary for midrange.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Rootborn is an OK card, and may be main deckable in some metas, but with GW aggro not so much. It's a dead card unless you have tokens on the table or the other side is actually packing mass removal. Also costs 3, which is awkward when your best token costs 4. Midrange loses to control. Say it with me. Midrange loses to control. Midrange wins against creature decks with the fatties it can drop. Midrange wins against aggro because your Voice is soon eclipsed by Arbor Colossus. Your deck is in a limbo between midrange and control. Maybe you've struck the perfect balance and I'm too obstinate to try it, but your list looks terribad. You have Courser and Gyre Sage to fix mana to cast....a 4 drop Polukranos?
Gyre Sage is a bad card and I don't know why you keep defending it.
4 Elvish Mytic
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Witchstalker
4 Boon Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
11 Forest
4 Temple of Plenty
4 Temple Garden
4 Selesnya Guildgate
Spells: 10
4 Selesnya Charm
4 Advent of the Wurm
2 God's Willing
4 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Plummet
3 Unflinching Courage
2 Banishing Light
2 Unravel the Aether
1 Polukranos, World Eater
As you can see this is basically just a mono green aggro shell splashing white for advent, voice and fleecemane. Of course this is still open to changes like switching the Elvish Mystic to Experiment One or Dryad Militant although a T2 Witchstalker is quite tempting.
Courser is, I don't know. Yes it doesn't suit an aggro shell and basically I'm not ramping into anything nor need fixing but the thing is, it somehow pseudo filters your draw wherein you can play the land instead of drawing it the next turn, lessening your chances of flooding.
For the manabase, I'm not really sure if Mana Confluence is needed YET.
As for the Chronicler versions, I think it's fine but I think it's outdated tech. Chronicler is a fairly bad card (in the sort of way Reaper of the Wilds is a fairly bad card), the only reason it's in talks is that there is so little value that a 3/3 that may draw you a card is just bonkers in a format where there is nothing even remotely in that range. No Borderland Rangers, not Seagate Oracles. So much to the point that when it draws a card it feels like the most powerful thing in the world. Unfortunately it really isn't especially for every time you don't. It might still have a spot but I think Courser of Kruphix sort of bumped it down to 5-8. At which point if you are aggressive enough maybe Boon Satyr is doing more work.
I agree that Banishing Light changes a lot for midrange builds. However, I think control probably still stays on Detention Sphere which is the better card. Yes we can sort jockey back and forth for whose is on the table but D-Sphere wins in the end (we saw this when O-Ring was legal). Still it's enough that say splashing black for Abrupt Decay or Golgari Charm is less incentivized. There is no reason for midrange decks to lose to control if they are made aggressively enough. You don't have to win the game super fast, but you have to play out in a way that allows you to keep initiative. I'm not sure the current card pool has all the tools to do that to be sure. The thing is looking at it I can say with a fair amount of certainty pre JOU GW midrange is not good enough. I don't mean that in a metagame sense. I mean that fundamental matchups are low enough that it just isn't a contender. I could say something similar about GW aggro I suppose too. So if you think in either case that these are viable something fundamental must have changed. More likely due to cards in the deck not to metagame changes. So presenting the same lists from pre-JOU without updates isn't going to be sufficient. Even adding a couple cards isn't enough unless there is something fundamentally improved.
I look at it like this. Generally what I do in every Standard format is create Gx aggro midrange decks that beat other midrange decks and control decks. Beating aggro is trivial for these decks so I usually don't focus on that (and sometimes that's my undoing). It's probably why I don't play my Gx aggro since Gx aggro has a hard time beating midrange since it can be the slowest of the aggro decks or too pile on. Like white weenie without as many global tricks.
What were GW Midrange problems up til now:
1. Inability to remove or being forced to using cards under the expected rate (like Selesnya Charm) or conditional with heavier mana requirements (Celestial Flare) other expensive opposing threats Elspeth, Stormbreath Dragon, Archangel of Thune, Desecration Demon
2. Threats in the mid game with immediate effect or resilient threats. Ie.. Everything can be doom bladed before it does anything.
3. An incentive to play out to the board, creating a tension between more powerful threats and resilient cheap creatures with limited slots (more slots taken to ramp, top end threats). Making sweepers particularly problematic.
4. Depending on the decision in #3 inability to actually deal with opposing critical mass board states like the mirror or Devotion.
1. Has been dealt with sufficiently. It's not as good as having Condemn, or Path, and Stormbreath is still problematic but maybe it's enough. Atleast from a control/midrange perspective. The real concern is if B starts maindecking enchantment removal. I don't think the tempo gain will be sufficient. Like if BW plays Deicide or BG plays Abrupt Decay (even worse) it's just all upside for them. So a small bump but probably not enough on it's own. This card makes a far bigger dent for decks like WW who really leverage the tempo, or non-blue white big midrange decks like Naya Control or Junk who play a chock full of removal already and just needed a hit all to bridge it.
2. Nothing new here except new Ajani.. Maybe good enough.. maybe not.
3. This is still problematic. New Ajani helps a bit, but you really want is Manlands, or like Gavony Township, or like Triumph of Ferocity or Domri.. Little Ajani is still a thingbut the effect isn't that immediate. Does Mana Confluence make Mutavault playable? Is mutavault even high enough rate for this deck.. probably not.
4. Still problematic. You set yourself up to beat other critical mass decks by critically massing but then you lose out to control a bit. You don't and you are at the mercy of your opponent stumbling, something I'm expecting far less of in the new format. Settessian Tactics could help but only if you are playing big enough anyway.
In short I don't see how adding a couple Mana Confluences and Banishing Lights actually does nearly enough. Not really even close. I think there is a need to dig a bit deeper. I don't see GW being the new thing in the current form. Aggro got a bit smoother of a curve which helps considerably (although maybe not as much as it helps other 2 colour aggro strategies) but midrange while getting that hasn't figured out how to leverage it yet I believe. If anything Mana Confluence should make the decks more ambitious and less middling. Like why even play a midrange version if you can't overcome #3 and handle #4. As I said a 3rd colour solves almost all 4 of those issues and wasn't a viable option before. That is much more fundamental. #2 is still the part that plagues these decks even with the 3rd color. It almost always pushes you into red or black just to have haste which feels at odds often with why you play white. Maybe there is a way to solve all that but I'd start by addressing those 4 issues.
EDIT: While not explicitly GW this is how I'd answer those 4 questions today:
4 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Godless Shrine
2 Temple of Plenty
1 Temple of Malady
1 Forest
3 Plains
4 Mana Confluence
Creatures (25):
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Dreg Mangler
3 Courser of Kruphix
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
2 Eidolon of Countless Battles
4 Archangel of Thune
2 Thoughtseize
2 Banishing Light
2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
4 Advent of the Wurm
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Vraska, the unseen
2 Golgari Charm
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Sin Collector
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
Big Ajani might just be wrong. I think this deck probably still has issues with Pack Rat since black can kill Caryatid which makes my faux blue splash not applicable there. It's possibel the format has sped up enough that Cyclonic Rift is no longer needed to deal with random slow Gx strategies.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
If we can front load or threats and become balls to the wall aggro and then voltron or Tower Archer we can put alot of pressure on our opponent?
My Trade Thread!
I've been playing a build with 3 rootborn and 3 advent. Rootborn Defenses is usually never dead. You don't need to populate for it to pay off. It gives all your creatures indestructible, which is almost ALWAYS useful. It means you can block with all your creatures, surprise your opponent with double blocks, or it's saving your creatures from a kill spell, or maybe even from a wipe. I've used it to save Polukranos (and other high power creatures) from Elsbeth minus, while killing their entire board.
I also run 3 Selesnya's Charm which is used to create the token if I don't open any better 2 drops, making it a target for populate. But, keep in mind that populate is just EXTRA. Yes, without Advent and Charm, I would not be maining rootborn, but that isn't the case. I can see justification for only running 2 rootborn, because you're right, SOMETIMES it sucks to draw multiples... But you can use this argument with any card. And I emphasize "sometimes" because there is games where I've had an advent token on board and drawn all 3 rootborns for game. Obviously, this isn't a common scenario, but none-the-less it happens.
Using the logic that "you'll need 7 mana" to pull off advent + rootborn, for rootborn to be viable, is severely flawed. It's the equivalent of saying you shouldn't run creatures because they are going to be killed by a kill spell because you can't protect them. Furthermore, is polukranos not worth running? If I drop him on turn 4, he might get hit with a kill spell! ... Do you see the flawed logic?
Most of the time, lets pick black since they have the most kill spells, they aren't going to be saving open mana for the possibility that G/W is dropping an advent. They are putting creatures on the board and dealing with it next turn, making running rootborn very sensible, as they waste a kill spell, and you populate.
And honestly, have you given Rootborn in the main a roll recently? If you get a rootborn off with an advent on board, that's usually ******* game. Who can deal with 2 5/5's with trample, when you just wasted a kill spell to try to get rid of the first one?
Personally, I run arbor colossus and sylvan primordial over plummet, because my g/w ramps to 5 cmc with mystic and carytid, and arbor colossus stays on the board to continue to deal with flying threats, where plummet is a one time kill spell.