Commune is probably much better, I just liked salvage because I could hold up removal mana and eot salvage. The meta is largely control where I'm at and drs is taking catarids spot, I enjoy the reach it gives me and the early life gain I can get from it. I'm also not sure about gaze but it seems to fill the slot that mutilate filled, though not as well.
What do you guys think? I have Deathrites for Legacy, but I feel like they under perform in standard since they will almost never will be used as ramp, which is very important for a 1 drop.
Another thing is, I would do 4 MB Thoughtseize if possible. Unless I'm playing RDW, Thoughtseize is fantastic removal and hand information. I want to control as much of the game as possible while beating face and thoughtseize is the epitome of control.
Boon Satyr is another great pseudo removal. My only question is, does anyone ever hold Satyr for the bestow? Since we are light on 3 drops, I see playing Satyr ASAP as priority (obviously not during main phase tho).
Any other insights to this deck is greatly appreciated!
What do you guys think? I have Deathrites for Legacy, but I feel like they under perform in standard since they will almost never will be used as ramp, which is very important for a 1 drop.
Another thing is, I would do 4 MB Thoughtseize if possible. Unless I'm playing RDW, Thoughtseize is fantastic removal and hand information. I want to control as much of the game as possible while beating face and thoughtseize is the epitome of control.
Boon Satyr is another great pseudo removal. My only question is, does anyone ever hold Satyr for the bestow? Since we are light on 3 drops, I see playing Satyr ASAP as priority (obviously not during main phase tho).
Any other insights to this deck is greatly appreciated!
I had been backing DRS for a very long time. I think in an attrition based deck it's phenominal. I switched them out for Mystic as I wanted to focus more on ramping into 3 drops on turn 2 and 4 drops on turn 3. If you aren't trying to do that and you are running Commune, DRS will be worth its weight.
I will try to cast boon at 3 all day, and when I topdeck one at turn 4-5, I'll bestow from that point on. Sometimes I will bestow turn 4 instead of casting him depending on board state, or better yet, cast him turn 2, bestow the first one turn 4, and flip the table. 5 mana is not hard to get to in the deck, and it serve purpose to pump mystics, Polukranos, Reaper, all of the above. So in terms of one or the other, try to do both! He is really good in control for the speed he can bring. He is good against Aggro as he can be an additional removal spell, or, come down just before you remove the threat that didn't swing, outracing some of the faster decks.
I have 2 decks I will be testing these next few days before I head to States, one is mostly a green creature deck with a splash of black and the other is about even in black and green. Let me know what you think.
Gaze of Granite does a decent impression if you accelerate into it with Caryatid, though. I'm also going to try experimenting with Elvish Mystic to ramp into midrange fatties that much faster.
Of course, you're killing your own mystics and caryatids with the gaze. But you're still likely coming out ahead.
My thoughts exactly; which is why I have Ingot instead. The $25 question is: Is that loss of card advantage worth the early blocking, ramp, and mana fixing? If it is, and he survives (the blocking, that is), should we consider a third color (or green and splash blue/black)? I've contemplated a splash of blue for far//away and Cyclonic Rift. If mystic AND caryatid is ran, for 8 cheap ramp sources, pumping out a 7 mana board bounce spell on the opponent is quite possible and terrifying of a prospect
I have 2 decks I will be testing these next few days before I head to States, one is mostly a green creature deck with a splash of black and the other is about even in black and green. Let me know what you think.
Isn't Nylea kind of silly with out Kalonian Tusker/BTE? Same thing with Hunter. Granted I really want to do something like that. I think you should fuse the two lists cause you have some strong stuff in both. Make up your mind on B/g or G/b.
I don't think you want 4 Garruk. Maybe cut 2 of those and fit in 2 Kalonian Tusker. Otherwise Take out Nylea and Hunter and add
If you keep 3 Garruk MB you may want to consider switching the DDemons into Polukranos as it has more synergy with Garruk. If you decide on staying with Nylea, which could be great with the traple/pump, I'd definitely recommend upping Boon to 4. The Devo it will provide will come in handy and it just applys alot of pressure.
The problem that I see with these decklists is that you guys are running merchants without enough devotion.
Schwartzy's list runs 3 demons, 3 reapers, 2 whips, and 2 connections main with 3 merchants.
Even counting the merchants, that's just 13 cards with black sources.
Mappo's list has 2 demons, 4 reapers, 2 erebos, 2 whips, and 2 connections along with 3 merchants. Which is 15 cards with black sources.
In my experience that's not enough. Merchant is either rediculously good, or really bad. You'll be facing decks that will be able to deal with your creatures, some (like control decks) will be able to take out your enchantments. You guys need more redundant casting costs in your decks. I run 4 demons, 3 reapers, 2 connections, 2 whips, 3 lifebane zombie, and 2 liliana with 4 merchants (20 cards, 17 with 2 black sources) and I can still have some issue getting a merchant to do more than 4 to an opponent off of the trigger, although It's usually 6-8.
Mappo will also have a hard time keeping erebos active. He's really not maindeck material either. It's different for connections since it only cost one life. You really just want to bring in erebos in matchups where the opponent can gain life off of things like revelation, blood baron, or obzedat.
I also used to play a more aggresive version of this deck with manglers, satyrs, and experiment ones. To me, Boon Satyr is only good if you are either in a racing situation where the opponent won't block, or you can bestow him. He's not good on defence. I don't think he belongs in either of these lists, he doesn't work with the merchants and he's strictly an aggresive card. We are looking to grind out matches and cast big threats that demand immediate answers, Boon Satyr doesn't do that. Sure you can look at him as a possible removal spell, but it's an extremely narrow removal spell, and he dies to almost anything.
I think they should either be lifebane zombies, lotleth trolls, even dreg mangler is better for this deck. Boon Satyr is for aggresive decks with higher creature counts.
Private Mod Note
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I also used to play a more aggresive version of this deck with manglers, satyrs, and experiment ones. To me, Boon Satyr is only good if you are either in a racing situation where the opponent won't block, or you can bestow him. He's not good on defence. I don't think he belongs in either of these lists, he doesn't work with the merchants and he's strictly an aggresive card. We are looking to grind out matches and cast big threats that demand immediate answers, Boon Satyr doesn't do that. Sure you can look at him as a possible removal spell, but it's an extremely narrow removal spell, and he dies to almost anything.
I think they should either be lifebane zombies, lotleth trolls, even dreg mangler is better for this deck. Boon Satyr is for aggresive decks with higher creature counts.
I tend to cast Boon and then remove the creature that can block. For instance
I don't like that Boon Satyr is bad against Ash Zealot. It also is a bad tempo play, you spending three mana to trade with their one drops. Boon Satyr is really good being used with other green aggressive creatures.
I've been pondering adding red for a couple cards, namely Xenagos, the Reveler, Rakdos's Return, and Slaughter Games. There really isn't anything else that I want to add as G/B have plenty of good cards.
What I like about Xenagos, the Reveler is that he can take out a Jace, Architect of Thought the turn after they play him on an empty board (they usually use his draw ability on empty boards) and he can quickly overwhelm a control deck with his Hasty 2/2 dudes.
Rakdos's Return could be our trump card against midrange mirror matches and a blow out card after a Sphinx's Revelation (which I have had plenty of people play them main phase or in response to discard), and paired with Xenagos, the Reveler could be a finisher type spell.
I don't like that Boon Satyr is bad against Ash Zealot. It also is a bad tempo play, you spending three mana to trade with their one drops. Boon Satyr is really good being used with other green aggressive creatures.
I've been pondering adding red for a couple cards, namely Xenagos, the Reveler, Rakdos's Return, and Slaughter Games. There really isn't anything else that I want to add as G/B have plenty of good cards.
What I like about Xenagos, the Reveler is that he can take out a Jace, Architect of Thought the turn after they play him on an empty board (they usually use his draw ability on empty boards) and he can quickly overwhelm a control deck with his Hasty 2/2 dudes.
Rakdos's Return could be our trump card against midrange mirror matches and a blow out card after a Sphinx's Revelation (which I have had plenty of people play them main phase or in response to discard), and paired with Xenagos, the Reveler could be a finisher type spell.
Another card is Dreadbore, gives us another option for a two mana spell against aggro.
I don't think that is a good evaluation of Boon Satyr. Boon Satyr has won me plenty of games, a majority of which, Ash zealot were not a part of. What is nice about G/b is we can play boon followed by removal so we keep the 4/2. Even if you view him as removal, if our removal had a body, would you play it?
I don't think that is a good evaluation of Boon Satyr. Boon Satyr has won me plenty of games, a majority of which, Ash zealot were not a part of. Even if you view him as removal, if our removal had a body, would you play it?
Not always, because sometimes you play a creature as a removal spell, then they play a removal spell on our creature and we lose the game. His two toughness is a huge liability.
I'm not saying he is a bad card or anything, I just like him in my list.
I don't like that Boon Satyr is bad against Ash Zealot. It also is a bad tempo play, you spending three mana to trade with their one drops. Boon Satyr is really good being used with other green aggressive creatures.
I've been pondering adding red for a couple cards, namely Xenagos, the Reveler, Rakdos's Return, and Slaughter Games. There really isn't anything else that I want to add as G/B have plenty of good cards.
What I like about Xenagos, the Reveler is that he can take out a Jace, Architect of Thought the turn after they play him on an empty board (they usually use his draw ability on empty boards) and he can quickly overwhelm a control deck with his Hasty 2/2 dudes.
Rakdos's Return could be our trump card against midrange mirror matches and a blow out card after a Sphinx's Revelation (which I have had plenty of people play them main phase or in response to discard), and paired with Xenagos, the Reveler could be a finisher type spell.
Another card is Dreadbore, gives us another option for a two mana spell against aggro.
I mentioned a possible red splash a couple pages ago, but I don't think Xenagos is the best inclusion because only his 0 ability is consistently useful. However, Rakdos's Return, Slaughter Games, Dreadbore, Rakdos Keyrune, and maybe even Sire of Insanity are very strong cards that can work against many decks.
Not always, because sometimes you play a creature as a removal spell, then they play a removal spell on our creature and we lose the game. His two toughness is a huge liability.
I'm not saying he is a bad card or anything, I just like him in my list.
Sometimes they remove my boon satyr, and I play a polukranos/reaper of the wilds/whip turn 3 and win the game.
What I've done here is become a "Demagogue"
A demagogue is someone who just spews out words that make something SEEM to be the opposite of what is good, even though what they are spewing isn't necessarily true or holds no real relevance. For instance
Sphinx Revelation blows because you'll just get Duressed.
We all know black is a very limited portion of the meta, and even smaller, are the chances that every SR would be disrupted in such a way.
If the board state is Ash Rider x2 than I'm SoL on Boon Satyr, that's the only board state that causes me to be SoL. You waste 3(Putrefy, Hero's Downfall) mana on a 1-2-3 drop all day against RDW and the like anyways. Don't act like because it's not playing into UC Merchant that it isn't relevant, because whats truly narrow, is relying on a deck that wants to strictly play black permenants, when those permanants are not always what is best in a majority of situations.
Boon Satyr outraces RDW if left unburned.
Boon Satyr pumps all of our other creatures on the enemy turn
Boon Satyr is a great card with great interactions with a majority of what I play
I do not play UC Merchant, because, UC is great in the control match, but against SR, I want to make sure I get what I need. What matters in U/w is
Jace, any iteration
Elspeth
Aetherling
Disruption handles what Pithing needle does not
Pithing needle handles what we do not disrupt
Both of these handles the top 3-4 listed cards, which are what win the game for U/w. UC does not provide the depth of knowledge that RtB provides. If RTB does not hit what you need in time, UC most certainly wouldn't.
If U/w counters my Boon Satyr, then they've tapped out on their turn
If red burns my Boon Satyr then I lose a 4/2 instead of taking 2-3 damage or protect it with a G charm
If b/w/r chains my Boon Satyr, then I play something bigger, until I destroy the chain with charm, decay
If black removes Boon Satyr, black would of removed the creature anyways and it just so happens to be a Satyr.
The nice thing about me not saying anything about any creature deck here, is that we already have mainboard removal for everything they play side by side with the creatures that they wish they still had in play. Why would I 100% of the time ALWAYS block with a Satyr? I am playing removal to use as well as Satyr who can double as removal if needed.
Just add in the fact that I am untapping directly after any of the previously mentioned happens really means a lot as well. I am not playing mono black splash G for a few creatures and a more versitile removal suite, I am playing G/b with creatures that are currently shaping the meta, with a versitile removal suite. Unfortunately there is no G/B Indestructible, Hexproof, Flash Creature, so I chose to play the best flash creature for the mainboard.
The problem that I see with these decklists is that you guys are running merchants without enough devotion.
Schwartzy's list runs 3 demons, 3 reapers, 2 whips, and 2 connections main with 3 merchants.
Even counting the merchants, that's just 13 cards with black sources.
Mappo's list has 2 demons, 4 reapers, 2 erebos, 2 whips, and 2 connections along with 3 merchants. Which is 15 cards with black sources.
In my experience that's not enough. Merchant is either rediculously good, or really bad. You'll be facing decks that will be able to deal with your creatures, some (like control decks) will be able to take out your enchantments. You guys need more redundant casting costs in your decks. I run 4 demons, 3 reapers, 2 connections, 2 whips, 3 lifebane zombie, and 2 liliana with 4 merchants (20 cards, 17 with 2 black sources) and I can still have some issue getting a merchant to do more than 4 to an opponent off of the trigger, although It's usually 6-8.
Mappo will also have a hard time keeping erebos active. He's really not maindeck material either. It's different for connections since it only cost one life. You really just want to bring in erebos in matchups where the opponent can gain life off of things like revelation, blood baron, or obzedat.
I also used to play a more aggresive version of this deck with manglers, satyrs, and experiment ones. To me, Boon Satyr is only good if you are either in a racing situation where the opponent won't block, or you can bestow him. He's not good on defence. I don't think he belongs in either of these lists, he doesn't work with the merchants and he's strictly an aggresive card. We are looking to grind out matches and cast big threats that demand immediate answers, Boon Satyr doesn't do that. Sure you can look at him as a possible removal spell, but it's an extremely narrow removal spell, and he dies to almost anything.
I think they should either be lifebane zombies, lotleth trolls, even dreg mangler is better for this deck. Boon Satyr is for aggresive decks with higher creature counts.
Thank you for the insight on black devotion count! I haven't had a chance to playtest (going tomorrow night to local magic for that), so did not realize that would be an issue.
I have also considered removing the 3 Boon, 3 Gray Merchants, 2 Underworld Connections, 2 Polukranos, and maybe a few other cards for 4 Commune, 4 Grisly Salvage, X Deathrites, 1 Whip, and a few big guys like Obzedat to make the deck more GBw reanimate with whip. But that is a different deck concept than this thread though I think they both are very similar in style besides having specific reanimate targets.
If the board state is Ash Rider x2 than I'm SoL on Boon Satyr, that's the only board state that causes me to be SoL. You waste 3(Putrefy, Hero's Downfall) mana on a 1-2-3 drop all day against RDW and the like anyways. Don't act like because it's not playing into UC Merchant that it isn't relevant, because whats truly narrow, is relying on a deck that wants to strictly play black permenants, when those permanants are not always what is best in a majority of situations.
Not sure if this is directed at me or not. I was mearly pointing out that there are better options than boon satyr in the merchant decks, it's very relevant that he does not provide devotion for black in that deck. And Connections provides card advantage, whip recurs creatures, liliana garuntees land drops and can win out of nowhere with her - ability as well as being recuring removal.
Yea those just suck.
I do not play UC Merchant, because, UC is great in the control match, but against SR, I want to make sure I get what I need. What matters in U/w is
Jace, any iteration
Elspeth
Aetherling
Disruption handles what Pithing needle does not
Pithing needle handles what we do not disrupt
Both of these handles the top 3-4 listed cards, which are what win the game for U/w. UC does not provide the depth of knowledge that RtB provides. If RTB does not hit what you need in time, UC most certainly wouldn't.
I assume that SR is sphinx's revelation?
Underworld Connections is better than read the bones because you can use it every turn, it provides much much more card advantage than read the bones. Sure it's great against control, but it's equally powerful against every other archetype besides aggro.
Read the bones is a one-shot deal scry 2 does not make it worth playing over connections.
If U/w counters my Boon Satyr, then they've tapped out on their turn
If red burns my Boon Satyr then I lose a 4/2 instead of taking 2-3 damage or protect it with a G charm
If b/w/r chains my Boon Satyr, then I play something bigger, until I destroy the chain with charm, decay
If black removes Boon Satyr, black would of removed the creature anyways and it just so happens to be a Satyr.
The nice thing about me not saying anything about any creature deck here, is that we already have mainboard removal for everything they play side by side with the creatures that they wish they still had in play. Why would I 100% of the time ALWAYS block with a Satyr? I am playing removal to use as well as Satyr who can double as removal if needed.
What you said above is the same about any creature. Nobody said that you would have to block, but what if you have nothing else? Most of the creatures that are in these decks are good on offense and defence, except for cards like lifebane zombie (could be argued that they should be lotleth troll anyway). Boon Satyr will not pull you out of a bad situation.
Boon satyr is outclassed or matched by anything another midrange or aggro deck will play, he is only good if you play him on an empty board or can bestow him. The list of creatures that he trades with and even trades down with is huge, you want him in a deck with a high creature count so there are more targets for bestow.
I'm not saying that Boon Satyr is bad, far from it. He is good, but we are playing a more gindy strategy, he fits in with aggresive decks like g/w, g/r, naya, and I'm sure there's a good version of a g/b aggresive deck out there too.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Not sure if this is directed at me or not. I was mearly pointing out that there are better options than boon satyr in the merchant decks, it's very relevant that he does not provide devotion for black in that deck. And Connections provides card advantage, whip recurs creatures, liliana garuntees land drops and can win out of nowhere with her - ability as well as being recuring removal.
Yea those just suck.
A merchant deck doesn't mean "The rock". A merchant deck is a merchant deck which is not what I am implying you should play along side of Boon Satyr. I am giving an alternative approach. If you look at all of the MTGO 4-0 lists, MBC was in 1 of the 4. There was 4 Copys of Merchant in all 32 recorded 4-0 lists. A majority of these 4-0 lists were comprised of RDW, G/w, Naya, Gruul. Is there a chance that the Merchant deck just got in because of pairing? And that it isn't safe to run with the meta being in the state that it is? More and more aggro lists are going to be popping up and I don't think Merchant is going to be your saving grace, I'm sorry.
I assume that SR is sphinx's revelation?
Underworld Connections is better than read the bones because you can use it every turn, it provides much much more card advantage than read the bones. Sure it's great against control, but it's equally powerful against every other archetype besides aggro.
Read the bones is a one-shot deal scry 2 does not make it worth playing over connections.
The reason I chose RTB is because
A. Mana in my G/b rock deck
B. RTB Gives the card I need. not the 3 I don't want and then the 1 I need.
I don't always need to draw more cards. I like RTB when I NEED that ONE card. UC is slow and sits in my hand until after my creatures in my G/b rock deck have been played. I don't play Merchant so I don't need the permanant. No benefit in my deck.
What you said above is the same about any creature. Nobody said that you would have to block, but what if you have nothing else? Most of the creatures that are in these decks are good on offense and defence, except for cards like lifebane zombie (could be argued that they should be lotleth troll anyway). Boon Satyr will not pull you out of a bad situation.
Isn't that exactly my point? ANY creature has those same circumstances, minus U/W countering him on their turn, not mine, which is the match I want to work on as that is the deck that keeps The Rock from making top 8, not the RDW lists. LBZ is in my side as a 3 of which come in over RTB against anything running either. LBZ is worse then Boon against every other deck.
Boon satyr is outclassed or matched by anything another midrange or aggro deck will play, he is only good if you play him on an empty board or can bestow him. The list of creatures that he trades with and even trades down with is huge, you want him in a deck with a high creature count so there are more targets for bestow.
I'm not saying that Boon Satyr is bad, far from it. He is good, but we are playing a more gindy strategy, he fits in with aggresive decks like g/w, g/r, naya, and I'm sure there's a good version of a g/b aggresive deck out there too.
If a board was empty, how could you bestow?
Why don't you provide the list of creatures, and the decks that run these cards before saying something of the like. Here, I'll post for you.
Important Creatures
1 drop in red that gets pumped when playing a creature
Red Satyr
Rakdos Cackler
Goblin Shortcutter
Ash Zealot
Voice of Resurgance
Fleecemane Lion
Firefist Striker
Experiment One
Witch Stalker
Boon Satyr
BTE
Boros Reckoner
Soldier of Pantheon
Kalonian Hydra
Kalonian Tusker
Reverant Hunter
Scavenging Ooze
Lifebane Zombie
Sin Collector
Loxodon Smiter
Fiendslayer Paladin
Chandras Phoenix
Precinct Captain
Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Polukranos, World eater
Aetherling
Desecration Demon
Tithe Drinker
Reaper of the Wilds
Stormbreathe Dragon
Prognastic Sphinx
Archangel of Thune
Gods
Lets break this down into the creatures that Trade with our Boon Satyr
Trade
1 drop in red that gets pumped when playing a creature
Red Satyr
Rakdos Cackler
Goblin Shortcutter
Voice of Resurgance
Fleecemane Lion
Firefist Striker
Experiment One
Witch Stalker
Boon Satyr
BTE
Boros Reckoner
Soldier of Pantheon
Kalonian Tusker
Reverant Hunter
Scavenging Ooze
Lifebane Zombie
Sin Collector
Loxodon Smiter
Tithe Drinker
No trade
Chandras Phoenix
Precinct Captain
Ash Zealot
Fiendslayer Paladin
Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Aetherling
Desecration Demon
Polukranos, World eater
Reaper of the Wilds
Stormbreathe Dragon
Kalonian Hydra
Prognastic Sphinx
Archangel of Thune
Gods
So, it removes much more than I had originally thought. First strike is the bane of Boon Satyr
lets look a little closer
RDW
Ash Zealot
Chandras Phoenix
Mono W
Fiendslayer Paladin
Precinct Captain
Esper
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Aetherling
Desecration Demon
U/w
Aetherling
Prognastic Sphinx
Dega
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Desecration Demon
Stormbreathe Dragon
B/g
Desecration Demon
Reaper of the Wilds
Polukranos, World Eater
Kalonian Hydra
Orzhov
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Desecration Demon
So, here we have a list of what Boon Satyr can not get around. Lets look at what comes down turn 2 just like Boon Satyr
Ash Zealot
Precinct Captain
Well here it is, the only 2 creatures that come down so lightning fast that Boon Satyr would just be dead blocker.
Perhaps we should look at all of the removal which is played.
"WHO CARES SHOCK HITS FOR 2"
Your absolutely right, 2 to my boon is 2 less to my face.
What about the idea that he kills a PW on the draw in an empty board or with few creatures like Big red or Big U? Boon is strong against Control/Midrange and decent against aggro. Boon allows us to resolve a 4 drop if answered on the turn he comes down.
Not always, because sometimes you play a creature as a removal spell, then they play a removal spell on our creature and we lose the game. His two toughness is a huge liability.
I'm not saying he is a bad card or anything, I just like him in my list.
This. I was running Boon Satyrs to begin with, but there were just too many times that I'd flash him to block and red would just Magma Jet/Lightning Strike him and swing in anyways. I still think he is a good creature, I just don't seem to have room for him in my list any more.
Against control, he does drop after a board wipe, but I'd still rather just play a Mistcutter that next turn anyways. Obviously I wouldn't have the Mistcutter game 1, but I want my pre-board to be the best it can be against everything at once and pre-board, Lotleth Troll survives a boardwipe just as well, and can do it multiple times.
He isn't as good against red decks due to Ash Zealot and the burn. Someone else said that burning the Satyr is that much less burn to the face. Yeah, but burning a Troll (to force regen and tap him so they can swing in) is the same outcome as burning Satyr except that you get to keep him on the board.
Against G/W, I'd rather just have a 3-cmc removal since he's a chump blocker that dies to Celestial Flare and lets them keep their creature; in this case so does Troll, so like I said, I'd rather just have another removal spell. But, the only creature he is better than Troll against in G/W is a monstrous lion or Lox Smiter (unless you drop some Bow counters on Troll or pump him with his pitch ability). With everything else, he might trade with it (except Advent token) or he might get flared (like Troll). However, Troll blocks numerous times whereas Satyr only blocks once.
In the mirror, Satyr doesn't do anything against Polukranos or Reaper and can only tap a Desecration Demon, and we pack enough removal to make him a non-issue anyways. Again, Troll's regen comes out on top.
Against mono-black, he gets stripped by Lifebane Zombie, but so does Lotleth to be fair. Lotleth does not die to Doom Blade, however, and can kill an attacking LBZ and stick on the board whereas Satyr can't even block him. He can also kill a Reaver and stick around if you hit him with a Bow counter or pitch a Caryatid or another Lotleth Troll to pump him.
Against WW, Troll is better against Precinct Captain and Fabled Hero (is Hero seeing play in WW yet?). Satyr is definitely better against Soldier of the Pantheon, but he still dies to it. Of course, Troll can't even block him, so Satyr obviously wins that one. Soldier also dodges most of our removal spells, so Satyr would be favorable here. I'd rather be able to side in Satyrs instead of Mistcutters, but overall I'd rather have Mistcutters in my SB since I feel they are much better against control. You can always block the Soldiers with Caryatids, but you do run the risk of having your mana dorks flared then. This is about the only match-up I would rather have Satyr in my SB for, but I still would want Trolls MB. And the match-up against WW is already heavily in our favor, at least from what I have seen so far.
On top of the above, the ability to pitch a Merchant or Demon to whip back in isn't irrelevant. I want him for the regen ability mainly, but the pitching is some mighty tasty icing from time to time. And getting to block every turn with a Troll or two on board next to a whip is awesome against aggro, blocking and getting to keep your blockers on board while gaining life the whole time should not be under-rated. By the time you dig out that Desecration Demon/Reaper of the Wilds/removal spell you need to gain board advantage, you could have amassed a pretty decent life total or negated the damage that the extra attacker you didn't have enough blockers for swung in for.
Again, I do like the card (I used Wolfir Avenger in my pre-rotation Golgari deck and loved it, but regen had alot to do with that) but I just think that Lotleth Troll outclasses him with the way I play my list. I don't want him in my SB, because Mistcutter is a better SB option against control. I agree with Slater; his 2 toughness is a liability. Troll syncs up with Bow much nicer too. Sure, Satyr requires few counters to be out of burn range and to be a bigger threat, but Troll has the regen to stay in the game while you are putting those counters on him and to provide the longevity to ensure you get mileage out of those counters. In a much green-heavier deck I could see Satyr being good, or even just in a deck that plays differently. I just don't want him in my 75.
First point: Boon Satyr doesn't fit the average Rock strategy, it's better in aggressive decks as has been analyzed before. In my mind the concern of the rock vs creature decks is to block/control the board until we take over and the Satyr doesn't help advance this plan
Second point: Devotion decks, either green or black, is again not in our best of interest. Why I'm saying this is cause we simply have the most powerful removal/ disruption at our disposal, so it's a conflict to try to invest on permanents, especially those with double color in their CC. If you're looking to go that route, I would think it makes more sense to go black due to Whip, LBZ, DD. I've seen some lists that go heavy GG creatures, but that is more like splashing black on a GG deck and plays differently.
At the moment the only thing I feel I should improve my deck is stabilizing vs aggro and turning the table. I used to think that Gaze of Granite is too slow, but now I'm finding it is the most reliable spell given that one-to-one removal can fall behind due to various reasons, BTE's, Paladins, the GW horde of beefy creatures etc.
Still, if they board out or you snap their "indestructible until end of turn" cards Gaze of Granite can be the breaking point.
Thought I would post about some of the matchups I've been playing against (I will be recording videos probably starting next week once I get the last couple cards for the deck).
Mono Red - My build in particular has been holding up pretty solid so far. I have the early spells to interact with them, then my superior creatures take over. If I get either Bow of Nylea or Whip of Erebos in play I don't lose. I've played 4 matches so far, going 9-2 (one match loss).
Junk Midrange - Playing a two color deck is so much easier on the mana base then 3 color right now. Half the games I've played my opponent usually does 6-10 points of damage to themselves, so I can see why Mono Red is a big thing online right now. I see no reason to play white in this deck after playing against this deck. We play bigger creatures on turn 3/4 then they do. I've played 3 matches so far, going 5-3 (one match loss that I punted).
Naya Midrange - Same as Junk Midrange, opponent hurts themselves so much going to three colors. Only played against this deck a couple times, but their big flier is outmatched by ours. We play the biggest flier in Standard, and that can't be understated. Only played twice, 4-2
Dega Midrange - Seems to be a trend developing here, these three color midrange decks have a good game, but their mana base really hinders them. Our GB removal keeps these guys in check pretty easily. Only played twice, 4-2.
Mono Green - This deck is powerful, but easy to keep under control as we play the best removal available and have card draw. Played once, 2-0.
I haven't played against any control decks in the last couple days, which is odd.
Golgari Charm is so good right now, I've played it multiple times on turn 2/3 to wipe away a pair of Elvish Mystics, talk about a blow out. And against control, it takes out their win conditions and acts like a counterspell against removal/sweepers and allows us to win creature combat.
What is your current deck list at right now, I am trying to finalize my deck before tonight's Wednesday Night Magic at our local store and wanted to compare what I plan on running to your results.
EDIT: Just played against another Junk deck, crushed him game one even after accidently skipping a turn, game two he had a BBoV that I didn't draw an answer for in about twenty turns, and then game three I had to mull to four and was stuck on three land for about 10 turns, if I would have drawn one more land I think I win this match as I had Deadbridge Goliath, 2x Reaper of the Wilds, Desecration Demon and Vraska the Unseen in hand, only drew Hero's Downfall as removal against a board of 2x Loxodon Smiter and a Monstrous Fleecemain Lion with my regenerating Lotleth Troll, this match was really depressing as I had the worse possible scenario happen and I still almost won the match.
EDIT 2: Only deck I have a losing record to right now with this build is the Maze's End deck which isn't a real deck in my opinion anyway. I just have terrible draws every time against this deck, never seem to draw threats or they draw 5+ Fog effect cards some how.
I'm running a Bg attrition style list. How would one deal with GW aggro ramping with a mystic on turn 1? I've found this to be a difficult matchup with only 7 maindeck removal spells and a curve that tops at 4.
In most of my experience I have found shadowborn demon to be underwhelming and gray merchant to be even more underwhelming for the attrition-based list. RotW actually tends to do quite well in GW matchups because he cannot be selesnya charmed, does not trade with smiter or a monstrous lion, and deathtouches wurm tokens.
Basically I'd like to know other peoples' strategies in dealing with GW aggro once the aggro player is on the play and lays out a mystic on turn 1. You know everything is coming sideways each turn, so what are my best options in a Bg attrition-based deck?
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=546505
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Desecration Demon
3 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Boon Satyr
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Artifacts 4
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Underworld Connections
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Doom Blade
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Putrefy
3 Thoughtseize
Land 24
8 Forest
7 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Golgari Gate
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Pithing Needle
3 Golgari Charm
1 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Pharika's Cure
2 Putrefy
What do you guys think? I have Deathrites for Legacy, but I feel like they under perform in standard since they will almost never will be used as ramp, which is very important for a 1 drop.
Another thing is, I would do 4 MB Thoughtseize if possible. Unless I'm playing RDW, Thoughtseize is fantastic removal and hand information. I want to control as much of the game as possible while beating face and thoughtseize is the epitome of control.
Boon Satyr is another great pseudo removal. My only question is, does anyone ever hold Satyr for the bestow? Since we are light on 3 drops, I see playing Satyr ASAP as priority (obviously not during main phase tho).
Any other insights to this deck is greatly appreciated!
I had been backing DRS for a very long time. I think in an attrition based deck it's phenominal. I switched them out for Mystic as I wanted to focus more on ramping into 3 drops on turn 2 and 4 drops on turn 3. If you aren't trying to do that and you are running Commune, DRS will be worth its weight.
I will try to cast boon at 3 all day, and when I topdeck one at turn 4-5, I'll bestow from that point on. Sometimes I will bestow turn 4 instead of casting him depending on board state, or better yet, cast him turn 2, bestow the first one turn 4, and flip the table. 5 mana is not hard to get to in the deck, and it serve purpose to pump mystics, Polukranos, Reaper, all of the above. So in terms of one or the other, try to do both! He is really good in control for the speed he can bring. He is good against Aggro as he can be an additional removal spell, or, come down just before you remove the threat that didn't swing, outracing some of the faster decks.
Creature (26)
4 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Kalonian Hydra
3 Boon Satyr
3 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Reverent Hunter
4 Elvis Mystic
4 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
4 Golgari Charm
2 Whip of Erebos
Sideboard
3 Nylea’s Disciple
3 Lifebane zombie
2 Pithing Needle
4 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Reverent hunter
24 land
11 Forest
7 Swamp
1 Mutavault
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Overgrown Tomb
2nd build is more evenly setup
Creatures (22)
2 Desecration Demon
4 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Kalonian Hydra
3 Boon Satyr
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Spells (14)
2 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Putrefy
Land (24)
6x Forest
4x Golgari Guildgate
1x Mutavault
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Overgrown Tomb
8x Swamp
Sideboard (15)
2 Doom Blade
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Pithing Needle
2 Devour Flesh
2 Pharika's Cure
2 Fade into Antiquity
3 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
My thoughts exactly; which is why I have Ingot instead. The $25 question is: Is that loss of card advantage worth the early blocking, ramp, and mana fixing? If it is, and he survives (the blocking, that is), should we consider a third color (or green and splash blue/black)? I've contemplated a splash of blue for far//away and Cyclonic Rift. If mystic AND caryatid is ran, for 8 cheap ramp sources, pumping out a 7 mana board bounce spell on the opponent is quite possible and terrifying of a prospect
Isn't Nylea kind of silly with out Kalonian Tusker/BTE? Same thing with Hunter. Granted I really want to do something like that. I think you should fuse the two lists cause you have some strong stuff in both. Make up your mind on B/g or G/b.
I don't think you want 4 Garruk. Maybe cut 2 of those and fit in 2 Kalonian Tusker. Otherwise Take out Nylea and Hunter and add
1 Putrefy
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Abrupt decay
1 Whatever you want. Bramblecrush, 4th Boon Satyr
If you keep 3 Garruk MB you may want to consider switching the DDemons into Polukranos as it has more synergy with Garruk. If you decide on staying with Nylea, which could be great with the traple/pump, I'd definitely recommend upping Boon to 4. The Devo it will provide will come in handy and it just applys alot of pressure.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=546505
The problem that I see with these decklists is that you guys are running merchants without enough devotion.
Schwartzy's list runs 3 demons, 3 reapers, 2 whips, and 2 connections main with 3 merchants.
Even counting the merchants, that's just 13 cards with black sources.
Mappo's list has 2 demons, 4 reapers, 2 erebos, 2 whips, and 2 connections along with 3 merchants. Which is 15 cards with black sources.
In my experience that's not enough. Merchant is either rediculously good, or really bad. You'll be facing decks that will be able to deal with your creatures, some (like control decks) will be able to take out your enchantments. You guys need more redundant casting costs in your decks. I run 4 demons, 3 reapers, 2 connections, 2 whips, 3 lifebane zombie, and 2 liliana with 4 merchants (20 cards, 17 with 2 black sources) and I can still have some issue getting a merchant to do more than 4 to an opponent off of the trigger, although It's usually 6-8.
Mappo will also have a hard time keeping erebos active. He's really not maindeck material either. It's different for connections since it only cost one life. You really just want to bring in erebos in matchups where the opponent can gain life off of things like revelation, blood baron, or obzedat.
I also used to play a more aggresive version of this deck with manglers, satyrs, and experiment ones. To me, Boon Satyr is only good if you are either in a racing situation where the opponent won't block, or you can bestow him. He's not good on defence. I don't think he belongs in either of these lists, he doesn't work with the merchants and he's strictly an aggresive card. We are looking to grind out matches and cast big threats that demand immediate answers, Boon Satyr doesn't do that. Sure you can look at him as a possible removal spell, but it's an extremely narrow removal spell, and he dies to almost anything.
I think they should either be lifebane zombies, lotleth trolls, even dreg mangler is better for this deck. Boon Satyr is for aggresive decks with higher creature counts.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I tend to cast Boon and then remove the creature that can block. For instance
Turn 1 Forest, Elvish Mystic
Turn 1 Rakdos Cackler
Turn 2 Swamp/Overgrown, go
Turn 2 Firefist/Shortcutter/Gore walker/BTE+Ash Rider, EOT Boon Satyr
Turn 3 Putrefy/Hero's Downfall or untap land+luck, whip
Granted I haven't devoted myself to black.
I've been pondering adding red for a couple cards, namely Xenagos, the Reveler, Rakdos's Return, and Slaughter Games. There really isn't anything else that I want to add as G/B have plenty of good cards.
What I like about Xenagos, the Reveler is that he can take out a Jace, Architect of Thought the turn after they play him on an empty board (they usually use his draw ability on empty boards) and he can quickly overwhelm a control deck with his Hasty 2/2 dudes.
Rakdos's Return could be our trump card against midrange mirror matches and a blow out card after a Sphinx's Revelation (which I have had plenty of people play them main phase or in response to discard), and paired with Xenagos, the Reveler could be a finisher type spell.
Slaughter Games can take out the major problem cards we have like Aetherling.
Another card is Dreadbore, gives us another option for a two mana spell against aggro. Also like Rakdos Keyrune.
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710
I don't think that is a good evaluation of Boon Satyr. Boon Satyr has won me plenty of games, a majority of which, Ash zealot were not a part of. What is nice about G/b is we can play boon followed by removal so we keep the 4/2. Even if you view him as removal, if our removal had a body, would you play it?
Not always, because sometimes you play a creature as a removal spell, then they play a removal spell on our creature and we lose the game. His two toughness is a huge liability.
I'm not saying he is a bad card or anything, I just like him in my list.
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710
I mentioned a possible red splash a couple pages ago, but I don't think Xenagos is the best inclusion because only his 0 ability is consistently useful. However, Rakdos's Return, Slaughter Games, Dreadbore, Rakdos Keyrune, and maybe even Sire of Insanity are very strong cards that can work against many decks.
3x Forest
2x Golgari Guildgate
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Overgrown Tomb
10x Swamp
4x Temple of Abandon
Instant (6)
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Putrefy
Artifact (3)
3x Rakdos Keyrune
4x Desecration Demon
2x Polukranos, World Eater
4x Reaper of the Wilds
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Sylvan Caryatid
Sorcery (7)
2x Dreadbore
2x Rakdos's Return
3x Read the Bones
Enchantment (4)
2x Underworld Connections
2x Whip of Erebos
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Devour Flesh
1x Fade into Antiquity
2x Golgari Charm
1x Hero's Downfall
2x Pithing Needle
2x Slaughter Games
3x Thoughtseize
1x Vraska the Unseen
Sometimes they remove my boon satyr, and I play a polukranos/reaper of the wilds/whip turn 3 and win the game.
What I've done here is become a "Demagogue"
A demagogue is someone who just spews out words that make something SEEM to be the opposite of what is good, even though what they are spewing isn't necessarily true or holds no real relevance. For instance
Sphinx Revelation blows because you'll just get Duressed.
We all know black is a very limited portion of the meta, and even smaller, are the chances that every SR would be disrupted in such a way.
If the board state is Ash Rider x2 than I'm SoL on Boon Satyr, that's the only board state that causes me to be SoL. You waste 3(Putrefy, Hero's Downfall) mana on a 1-2-3 drop all day against RDW and the like anyways. Don't act like because it's not playing into UC Merchant that it isn't relevant, because whats truly narrow, is relying on a deck that wants to strictly play black permenants, when those permanants are not always what is best in a majority of situations.
Boon Satyr outraces RDW if left unburned.
Boon Satyr pumps all of our other creatures on the enemy turn
Boon Satyr is a great card with great interactions with a majority of what I play
I do not play UC Merchant, because, UC is great in the control match, but against SR, I want to make sure I get what I need. What matters in U/w is
Jace, any iteration
Elspeth
Aetherling
Disruption handles what Pithing needle does not
Pithing needle handles what we do not disrupt
Both of these handles the top 3-4 listed cards, which are what win the game for U/w. UC does not provide the depth of knowledge that RtB provides. If RTB does not hit what you need in time, UC most certainly wouldn't.
If U/w counters my Boon Satyr, then they've tapped out on their turn
If red burns my Boon Satyr then I lose a 4/2 instead of taking 2-3 damage or protect it with a G charm
If b/w/r chains my Boon Satyr, then I play something bigger, until I destroy the chain with charm, decay
If black removes Boon Satyr, black would of removed the creature anyways and it just so happens to be a Satyr.
The nice thing about me not saying anything about any creature deck here, is that we already have mainboard removal for everything they play side by side with the creatures that they wish they still had in play. Why would I 100% of the time ALWAYS block with a Satyr? I am playing removal to use as well as Satyr who can double as removal if needed.
Just add in the fact that I am untapping directly after any of the previously mentioned happens really means a lot as well. I am not playing mono black splash G for a few creatures and a more versitile removal suite, I am playing G/b with creatures that are currently shaping the meta, with a versitile removal suite. Unfortunately there is no G/B Indestructible, Hexproof, Flash Creature, so I chose to play the best flash creature for the mainboard.
Thank you for the insight on black devotion count! I haven't had a chance to playtest (going tomorrow night to local magic for that), so did not realize that would be an issue.
I have also considered removing the 3 Boon, 3 Gray Merchants, 2 Underworld Connections, 2 Polukranos, and maybe a few other cards for 4 Commune, 4 Grisly Salvage, X Deathrites, 1 Whip, and a few big guys like Obzedat to make the deck more GBw reanimate with whip. But that is a different deck concept than this thread though I think they both are very similar in style besides having specific reanimate targets.
Not sure if this is directed at me or not. I was mearly pointing out that there are better options than boon satyr in the merchant decks, it's very relevant that he does not provide devotion for black in that deck. And Connections provides card advantage, whip recurs creatures, liliana garuntees land drops and can win out of nowhere with her - ability as well as being recuring removal.
Yea those just suck.
I assume that SR is sphinx's revelation?
Underworld Connections is better than read the bones because you can use it every turn, it provides much much more card advantage than read the bones. Sure it's great against control, but it's equally powerful against every other archetype besides aggro.
Read the bones is a one-shot deal scry 2 does not make it worth playing over connections.
What you said above is the same about any creature. Nobody said that you would have to block, but what if you have nothing else? Most of the creatures that are in these decks are good on offense and defence, except for cards like lifebane zombie (could be argued that they should be lotleth troll anyway). Boon Satyr will not pull you out of a bad situation.
Boon satyr is outclassed or matched by anything another midrange or aggro deck will play, he is only good if you play him on an empty board or can bestow him. The list of creatures that he trades with and even trades down with is huge, you want him in a deck with a high creature count so there are more targets for bestow.
I'm not saying that Boon Satyr is bad, far from it. He is good, but we are playing a more gindy strategy, he fits in with aggresive decks like g/w, g/r, naya, and I'm sure there's a good version of a g/b aggresive deck out there too.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
A merchant deck doesn't mean "The rock". A merchant deck is a merchant deck which is not what I am implying you should play along side of Boon Satyr. I am giving an alternative approach. If you look at all of the MTGO 4-0 lists, MBC was in 1 of the 4. There was 4 Copys of Merchant in all 32 recorded 4-0 lists. A majority of these 4-0 lists were comprised of RDW, G/w, Naya, Gruul. Is there a chance that the Merchant deck just got in because of pairing? And that it isn't safe to run with the meta being in the state that it is? More and more aggro lists are going to be popping up and I don't think Merchant is going to be your saving grace, I'm sorry.
The reason I chose RTB is because
A. Mana in my G/b rock deck
B. RTB Gives the card I need. not the 3 I don't want and then the 1 I need.
I don't always need to draw more cards. I like RTB when I NEED that ONE card. UC is slow and sits in my hand until after my creatures in my G/b rock deck have been played. I don't play Merchant so I don't need the permanant. No benefit in my deck.
Isn't that exactly my point? ANY creature has those same circumstances, minus U/W countering him on their turn, not mine, which is the match I want to work on as that is the deck that keeps The Rock from making top 8, not the RDW lists. LBZ is in my side as a 3 of which come in over RTB against anything running either. LBZ is worse then Boon against every other deck.
If a board was empty, how could you bestow?
Why don't you provide the list of creatures, and the decks that run these cards before saying something of the like. Here, I'll post for you.
Important Creatures
1 drop in red that gets pumped when playing a creature
Red Satyr
Rakdos Cackler
Goblin Shortcutter
Ash Zealot
Voice of Resurgance
Fleecemane Lion
Firefist Striker
Experiment One
Witch Stalker
Boon Satyr
BTE
Boros Reckoner
Soldier of Pantheon
Kalonian Hydra
Kalonian Tusker
Reverant Hunter
Scavenging Ooze
Lifebane Zombie
Sin Collector
Loxodon Smiter
Fiendslayer Paladin
Chandras Phoenix
Precinct Captain
Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Polukranos, World eater
Aetherling
Desecration Demon
Tithe Drinker
Reaper of the Wilds
Stormbreathe Dragon
Prognastic Sphinx
Archangel of Thune
Gods
Lets break this down into the creatures that Trade with our Boon Satyr
Trade
1 drop in red that gets pumped when playing a creature
Red Satyr
Rakdos Cackler
Goblin Shortcutter
Voice of Resurgance
Fleecemane Lion
Firefist Striker
Experiment One
Witch Stalker
Boon Satyr
BTE
Boros Reckoner
Soldier of Pantheon
Kalonian Tusker
Reverant Hunter
Scavenging Ooze
Lifebane Zombie
Sin Collector
Loxodon Smiter
Tithe Drinker
No trade
Chandras Phoenix
Precinct Captain
Ash Zealot
Fiendslayer Paladin
Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Aetherling
Desecration Demon
Polukranos, World eater
Reaper of the Wilds
Stormbreathe Dragon
Kalonian Hydra
Prognastic Sphinx
Archangel of Thune
Gods
So, it removes much more than I had originally thought. First strike is the bane of Boon Satyr
lets look a little closer
RDW
Ash Zealot
Chandras Phoenix
Mono W
Fiendslayer Paladin
Precinct Captain
Esper
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Aetherling
Desecration Demon
U/w
Aetherling
Prognastic Sphinx
Dega
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Desecration Demon
Stormbreathe Dragon
B/g
Desecration Demon
Reaper of the Wilds
Polukranos, World Eater
Kalonian Hydra
Orzhov
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Desecration Demon
So, here we have a list of what Boon Satyr can not get around. Lets look at what comes down turn 2 just like Boon Satyr
Ash Zealot
Precinct Captain
Well here it is, the only 2 creatures that come down so lightning fast that Boon Satyr would just be dead blocker.
Perhaps we should look at all of the removal which is played.
"WHO CARES SHOCK HITS FOR 2"
Your absolutely right, 2 to my boon is 2 less to my face.
What about the idea that he kills a PW on the draw in an empty board or with few creatures like Big red or Big U? Boon is strong against Control/Midrange and decent against aggro. Boon allows us to resolve a 4 drop if answered on the turn he comes down.
This. I was running Boon Satyrs to begin with, but there were just too many times that I'd flash him to block and red would just Magma Jet/Lightning Strike him and swing in anyways. I still think he is a good creature, I just don't seem to have room for him in my list any more.
Against control, he does drop after a board wipe, but I'd still rather just play a Mistcutter that next turn anyways. Obviously I wouldn't have the Mistcutter game 1, but I want my pre-board to be the best it can be against everything at once and pre-board, Lotleth Troll survives a boardwipe just as well, and can do it multiple times.
He isn't as good against red decks due to Ash Zealot and the burn. Someone else said that burning the Satyr is that much less burn to the face. Yeah, but burning a Troll (to force regen and tap him so they can swing in) is the same outcome as burning Satyr except that you get to keep him on the board.
Against G/W, I'd rather just have a 3-cmc removal since he's a chump blocker that dies to Celestial Flare and lets them keep their creature; in this case so does Troll, so like I said, I'd rather just have another removal spell. But, the only creature he is better than Troll against in G/W is a monstrous lion or Lox Smiter (unless you drop some Bow counters on Troll or pump him with his pitch ability). With everything else, he might trade with it (except Advent token) or he might get flared (like Troll). However, Troll blocks numerous times whereas Satyr only blocks once.
In the mirror, Satyr doesn't do anything against Polukranos or Reaper and can only tap a Desecration Demon, and we pack enough removal to make him a non-issue anyways. Again, Troll's regen comes out on top.
Against mono-black, he gets stripped by Lifebane Zombie, but so does Lotleth to be fair. Lotleth does not die to Doom Blade, however, and can kill an attacking LBZ and stick on the board whereas Satyr can't even block him. He can also kill a Reaver and stick around if you hit him with a Bow counter or pitch a Caryatid or another Lotleth Troll to pump him.
Against WW, Troll is better against Precinct Captain and Fabled Hero (is Hero seeing play in WW yet?). Satyr is definitely better against Soldier of the Pantheon, but he still dies to it. Of course, Troll can't even block him, so Satyr obviously wins that one. Soldier also dodges most of our removal spells, so Satyr would be favorable here. I'd rather be able to side in Satyrs instead of Mistcutters, but overall I'd rather have Mistcutters in my SB since I feel they are much better against control. You can always block the Soldiers with Caryatids, but you do run the risk of having your mana dorks flared then. This is about the only match-up I would rather have Satyr in my SB for, but I still would want Trolls MB. And the match-up against WW is already heavily in our favor, at least from what I have seen so far.
On top of the above, the ability to pitch a Merchant or Demon to whip back in isn't irrelevant. I want him for the regen ability mainly, but the pitching is some mighty tasty icing from time to time. And getting to block every turn with a Troll or two on board next to a whip is awesome against aggro, blocking and getting to keep your blockers on board while gaining life the whole time should not be under-rated. By the time you dig out that Desecration Demon/Reaper of the Wilds/removal spell you need to gain board advantage, you could have amassed a pretty decent life total or negated the damage that the extra attacker you didn't have enough blockers for swung in for.
Again, I do like the card (I used Wolfir Avenger in my pre-rotation Golgari deck and loved it, but regen had alot to do with that) but I just think that Lotleth Troll outclasses him with the way I play my list. I don't want him in my SB, because Mistcutter is a better SB option against control. I agree with Slater; his 2 toughness is a liability. Troll syncs up with Bow much nicer too. Sure, Satyr requires few counters to be out of burn range and to be a bigger threat, but Troll has the regen to stay in the game while you are putting those counters on him and to provide the longevity to ensure you get mileage out of those counters. In a much green-heavier deck I could see Satyr being good, or even just in a deck that plays differently. I just don't want him in my 75.
Deadbridge Chant or Primeval Bounty?
Second point: Devotion decks, either green or black, is again not in our best of interest. Why I'm saying this is cause we simply have the most powerful removal/ disruption at our disposal, so it's a conflict to try to invest on permanents, especially those with double color in their CC. If you're looking to go that route, I would think it makes more sense to go black due to Whip, LBZ, DD. I've seen some lists that go heavy GG creatures, but that is more like splashing black on a GG deck and plays differently.
Third point: I've been testing this core
3 Lotleth Troll
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Desecration Demon
2 Polukranos
3 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Hero's Downfall
At the moment the only thing I feel I should improve my deck is stabilizing vs aggro and turning the table. I used to think that Gaze of Granite is too slow, but now I'm finding it is the most reliable spell given that one-to-one removal can fall behind due to various reasons, BTE's, Paladins, the GW horde of beefy creatures etc.
Still, if they board out or you snap their "indestructible until end of turn" cards Gaze of Granite can be the breaking point.
Mono Red - My build in particular has been holding up pretty solid so far. I have the early spells to interact with them, then my superior creatures take over. If I get either Bow of Nylea or Whip of Erebos in play I don't lose. I've played 4 matches so far, going 9-2 (one match loss).
Junk Midrange - Playing a two color deck is so much easier on the mana base then 3 color right now. Half the games I've played my opponent usually does 6-10 points of damage to themselves, so I can see why Mono Red is a big thing online right now. I see no reason to play white in this deck after playing against this deck. We play bigger creatures on turn 3/4 then they do. I've played 3 matches so far, going 5-3 (one match loss that I punted).
Naya Midrange - Same as Junk Midrange, opponent hurts themselves so much going to three colors. Only played against this deck a couple times, but their big flier is outmatched by ours. We play the biggest flier in Standard, and that can't be understated. Only played twice, 4-2
Dega Midrange - Seems to be a trend developing here, these three color midrange decks have a good game, but their mana base really hinders them. Our GB removal keeps these guys in check pretty easily. Only played twice, 4-2.
Mono Green - This deck is powerful, but easy to keep under control as we play the best removal available and have card draw. Played once, 2-0.
I haven't played against any control decks in the last couple days, which is odd.
Golgari Charm is so good right now, I've played it multiple times on turn 2/3 to wipe away a pair of Elvish Mystics, talk about a blow out. And against control, it takes out their win conditions and acts like a counterspell against removal/sweepers and allows us to win creature combat.
EDIT: Also, Bow of Nylea makes Lotleth Troll a much better card.
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
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What is your current deck list at right now, I am trying to finalize my deck before tonight's Wednesday Night Magic at our local store and wanted to compare what I plan on running to your results.
Thanks
4x Reaper of the Wilds
3x Deadbridge Goliath
4x Desecration Demon
2x Lotleth Troll
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Sylvan Caryatid
Permanents - 3
1x Vraska the Unseen
1x Whip of Erebos
1x Bow of Nylea
2x Hero's Downfall
3x Putrefy
3x Read the Bones
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Golgari Charm
Land - 24
4x Golgari Guildgate
4x Overgrown Tomb
8x Forest
8x Swamp
1x Whip of Erebos
1x Bow of Nylea
1x Putrefy
2x Underworld Connections
3x Golgari Charm
4x Duress
3x Pithing Needle
The Deadbridge Goliath will become Polukranos, World Eater very soon, and two of the Putrefys will become Hero's Downfall.
EDIT: Just played against another Junk deck, crushed him game one even after accidently skipping a turn, game two he had a BBoV that I didn't draw an answer for in about twenty turns, and then game three I had to mull to four and was stuck on three land for about 10 turns, if I would have drawn one more land I think I win this match as I had Deadbridge Goliath, 2x Reaper of the Wilds, Desecration Demon and Vraska the Unseen in hand, only drew Hero's Downfall as removal against a board of 2x Loxodon Smiter and a Monstrous Fleecemain Lion with my regenerating Lotleth Troll, this match was really depressing as I had the worse possible scenario happen and I still almost won the match.
EDIT 2: Only deck I have a losing record to right now with this build is the Maze's End deck which isn't a real deck in my opinion anyway. I just have terrible draws every time against this deck, never seem to draw threats or they draw 5+ Fog effect cards some how.
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710
Thanks for the update, I will try the following list at tonight's WNM tourney, its the last test run before states this weekend.
Creatures (22)
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Boon Satyr
4 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Desecration Demon
3 Kalonian Hydra
Instant (9)
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Putrefy
2 Hero's Downfall
Sorcery (2)
2 Read the Bones
Enchanment (3)
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Bow of Nylea
Land (24)
11 Forest
5 Swamp
4 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
Sideboard (15)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Vraska the Unseen
1 Golgari Charm
In most of my experience I have found shadowborn demon to be underwhelming and gray merchant to be even more underwhelming for the attrition-based list. RotW actually tends to do quite well in GW matchups because he cannot be selesnya charmed, does not trade with smiter or a monstrous lion, and deathtouches wurm tokens.
Basically I'd like to know other peoples' strategies in dealing with GW aggro once the aggro player is on the play and lays out a mystic on turn 1. You know everything is coming sideways each turn, so what are my best options in a Bg attrition-based deck?