Just a quick note on mana. I find that it is very hard to hit enough untapped sources. For instance, if you are aiming for a 25 land 17/17/13 distribution, then it requires 47 mana sources allowing you to play only 3 basics (or 2 basics plus one Urborg). You can't reasonably have more than 3 fetch-lands, so with that you end up with 3+3+4 UR pain-land, or 10 untapped mana sources out of 25, which is clearly quite low. You could of course turn to Mana Confluence, but that's going to be quite painful.
Instead, only a light splash of one color is prudent, e.g. a 18/18/8 distribution of sources, which allows you to play 6 basics, 6 fetch-lands and 4 UR pain-lands, or 16 untapped sources and 9 tapped sources, which seems quite a bit more reasonable.
Honestly deciding on two colors to focus on and one to splash tends to be the easiest. Scrylands aren't that detrimental to us since we want as much scry as we can get and can usually afford to have our lands go a bit slower. Saving untapped lands for turns when we need to hit a land untapped (which should not be all turns) is part of playing control. If we have to, we can run more basics - it's not like a lot of cards require 2 or more colors for us this go around. mana Confluence is not a card we want. The life loss is too fatal for us to run.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
My problem with Grixis at its core this time around has changed little from last season. The Alara Shards have access to more Fetchlands than the Khan Clans, which is very interesting insofar stuff such as Delce is concerned. Honestly I would have preferred trading a set of Bloodstained Mire for Grixis Trilands but we have to make do with the tools we're given I guess.
No my concern is the practicality of our tools this time round. What's the argument for pushing Grixis competitively other than bias towards these colors? What exactly does this color offer that can not better be found in say the latest winning Esper list from the Magic league Trial? We still have less ways to interact with non creature permanents, same as last season. Elspeth is still a better finisher than anything we have in these colors, hell, Sagu Mauler is getting plenty of attention with the looming Sultai mirrors around the corner.
My blood runs UBR as much as the lot of you but simply liking a color is not going to be enough this time round.
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I used to play grixis I loved the color combo. My problem was there was no real finisher or there were better finishers in other colors or lastly they took too long to set up and by then you were dead.
I switched to BUG because it felt more stable, however with the new set I am wonder if I should switch back to grixis.
Use 2-3 empty the pits for the finisher of choice, with singleton of keranos and or mogis as back up. Use anger, drown, and aetherspouts to control the board, fuel delve with steam augery, counter magic and kill spells the rest, 2-3 dig through time to find pits once the gy is set up.
I'm currently between a few deck, notably Sultai Delve and UB control. Ashcloud Phoenix has really been interesting me lately as a means to fly over these big green decks and partnering up with Prognostic Sphinx to just be these incredibly hard to remove threats while supplementing the rest of your spells. I don't have a lists for Grixis as of yet but I can say that if I were to stray from straight UB, then Phoenix, backed by counter spells and burn, would be the primary reason for doing so.
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Been playtesting with some friends and I must say I am not the biggest fan of fetches in the control deck without duels. My justification, because its a little more than a value judgment: If I have one fetch land in my hand with 26 land left in the deck and I fetch, there are now 25 land left in my deck. If I use a second fetch land there are now 24, and using it puts me at 23. This decreases the conditional draw probability that I will draw another land. Which I would argue is the opposite of what the control deck wants. I found this insight to be rather non-intuitive. Additionally the fixing from them was rather lack luster, just grabbing one color was not really enough given the mix of spells. That said I made some adjustments to the mana base below to account for this but it needs testing. I would be looking to see if I want any of my mana faster or not.
Otherwise I was rather impressed with the performance of the deck, I could easily see going 2-2. The other thing of note was that I generally did not have enough cards in the gy early in the game so looking at Dig through Time in my hand was really painful because 8 is a ton for delve with out enablers. It means you need to have 4 cards in your gy and 4 lands in play and I was generally not casting a spell per turn. I still like the card but I 3 was definitely too many. Sideboard is a work in progress so it was omitted.
The green splash is really there for the Villainous wealth, or as I call it, Bolas' Revelation. With sources of card advantage being kind of terrible in Khans, I've found this card to be amazing in every game I've casted it. Which isn't that hard. The worst part of the deck is a slower mana base, however I find it's better than painful because it gives you better longevity against mid-ranged. Given the green splash, I also find Garruk worth running of at least a 1 of. He stabilizes the board against midranged late game, and provides regular sources of removal which is always good.
The reason for despise main is in the same vein as the slower lands, less painful for me and hits most targets I care about anyway.
Pretty solid deck so far, but as I said, still needs some tuning
Been playtesting with some friends and I must say I am not the biggest fan of fetches in the control deck without duels. My justification, because its a little more than a value judgment: If I have one fetch land in my hand with 26 land left in the deck and I fetch, there are now 25 land left in my deck. If I use a second fetch land there are now 24, and using it puts me at 23. This decreases the conditional draw probability that I will draw another land.
That statistical probability is greatly exaggerated and dwarfed by the lifeloss clause. If you feel comfortable without those few lifepoints to enable Delve or simply hitting your colors, you should play fetches, not because of minute statistics or thinning properties.
As for the deck itself...18 lands that come into play untapped, honestly given the results of the recent open the rest of your deck contents are largely irrelevant, your opponents wont have to kill you, your mana base is going to do it for them.
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I ended up cutting the izzet tapped lands for 2 shivan reef, and the rakdos ones for mountain, swamp. Toyrmenting voice, stubborn denial, were bad. Ashiok and storm reath seemed like the most relevant cards. I cut the voice and an ingenuity for 2 fonts and am looking to cut one div. Anger matched poorly against my abzan and sultai opponents. I did not have enough cheep removal. And I felt like I was missing a threat. Bad list was bad. I like boarding into more dissolves against sultai. Maybe a draw go shell is better.
Eh, my only real concern with draw-go is our cardpool in general and the mana constraints in regards to spells such as Bile Blight, Dissolve, Downfall, etc etc. That said there are some interesting avenues one could take.
Ashiok and Sphinx seem fantastic against the field atm so it all comes down to whether the burn spells and Sarkhan/Dragon/Phoenix/Keranos end up being worth it. Don't care much for Anger tbh, while a fantastic card, Drown in Sorrow hedges against the smaller decks while not compromising your mana base insofar counter spells are concerned.
It could also be that ditching blue as a primary and dropping counter spells might be better in favor of a R/B base, but that would put pressure on your CA engines and Sphinx/Spouts so I'm not so sure I'd go that route.
I'm using this as a very rough base atm but I'm still undecided.
I tried replacing the dragons with the sphinx last night to see how it would perform out of the side for matches where people had black removal. It Felt glacially slow and they were just using removal to tap it down and continuing to swing in. That having been said, your curve is better that what I was trying to play it in and you have 6 counters main. I like the card but I think I am still on the fence about it. It definitely dodges Elspeth but killing a walker with it takes forever. Maybe that is not what you are supposed to do with it though.
Took this list for standard tonight, going 2-2-0. R1: Abzan midrange (lost), R2: Abzan Bestow (won), R3: Mardu midrange? (won), R4: Temur midrange (super lost).
Treasure Cruise is coming out for Dig Through Time (possibly one of the Fonts as well). Silence and Cut were very frustrating to see with a 'walker on the field. Maybe Despise instead of Cut? Ashiok is still a house, and I can't possibly imagine using Prognostic Sphinx over Stormbreath. Not really sold on Liliana, may replace with a second Keranos or a Clever Impersonator. Sideboard is mostly nonexistent right now.
Probably the most synergistic thing grixis can do is augury, dig, cut, and maybe pits. But the 2 drop spot kind of sucks. You just need answers to rabble master and other 2-3 drops. and there is a lot of dragon hate so a sarkhan mix is probably correct. It also feels bad to cut or downfall a course. 4 toughness is hard short of 4 mana stoke.
If you want a 2 drop, I think Omenspeaker is fine. Gives us a decent body to block a lot of threats, and let's us Scry. However, I wouldn't be too concerned about not having a perfect curve because of Scrylands. If we don't have anything on the curve for turn two, we can just use it for a one drop and a land or something. Between Thoughtseize, despise, and magma spray, we have a lot of appealing one drops.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
I am unsure if you guys watched the open this weekend, but the best card against Jeskai Tempo and Goblin Rabblemaster is Lightning Strike.
This is great because it's an easy t2 play, it can go to planeswalkers, and handles much of aggro.
However, it's very bad against much of Abzan midrange and BDGG (big, dumb, green guys).
Much of standard mid-range has yet to shake out, so knowing what to pack will be difficult until we know the "top dog".
Still, Lightning Strike should be looked at as a legitimate control card.
I am on the fence about Stoke the Flames. So much so that I haven't even bothered to test it. It's 4cmc, requires double red, and doesn't kill Polyk, Siege Rhino (everybody's new favorite green fattie), or Elspeth -- where at least Lightning Strike is easy on the mana.
I was thinking of trying a combination of: Omenspeaker + Disowned Ancestor or maybe Monastery Flock as early aggro deterrent; or maybe les of a deterrent and more along the lines of forcing them to overextend to get past the Defense which plays into Anger of the Gods and AEtherspouts.
Kind of like what Frostburn Weird provided Grixis in the last STD Format.
It'll protect Ashiok and any other walkers that anyone wants to run; and then we can do Hour of Need taking those early creatures and making them 4/4 Sphinx's with Flying.
It's probably a terrible idea; but just curious what people think?
If you are just looking for a blocker I would say the ancestor probably, although you are not looking to outlast him very often. Blocking seems not good with ferocious triggers flying around.
I think Hour of Need belongs together with Thamaturge and some tokens imo.
I am going to playtest this tonight and see how I feel about running it for Thursday night at the lgs. The numbers seem a little scattered, I may need to conseledate.
Instead, only a light splash of one color is prudent, e.g. a 18/18/8 distribution of sources, which allows you to play 6 basics, 6 fetch-lands and 4 UR pain-lands, or 16 untapped sources and 9 tapped sources, which seems quite a bit more reasonable.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Here's for instance a UBr mana-base, with 18, 18, 8 distribution of sources (I should probably fit Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth though):
4 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Shivan Reef
1 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Dismal Backwater
And a URb mana-base:
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Shivan Reef
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Swiftwater Cliffs
1 Mystic Monastery
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Temple of Malice
4 Nomad Outpost
No my concern is the practicality of our tools this time round. What's the argument for pushing Grixis competitively other than bias towards these colors? What exactly does this color offer that can not better be found in say the latest winning Esper list from the Magic league Trial? We still have less ways to interact with non creature permanents, same as last season. Elspeth is still a better finisher than anything we have in these colors, hell, Sagu Mauler is getting plenty of attention with the looming Sultai mirrors around the corner.
My blood runs UBR as much as the lot of you but simply liking a color is not going to be enough this time round.
I switched to BUG because it felt more stable, however with the new set I am wonder if I should switch back to grixis.
Use 2-3 empty the pits for the finisher of choice, with singleton of keranos and or mogis as back up. Use anger, drown, and aetherspouts to control the board, fuel delve with steam augery, counter magic and kill spells the rest, 2-3 dig through time to find pits once the gy is set up.
Otherwise I was rather impressed with the performance of the deck, I could easily see going 2-2. The other thing of note was that I generally did not have enough cards in the gy early in the game so looking at Dig through Time in my hand was really painful because 8 is a ton for delve with out enablers. It means you need to have 4 cards in your gy and 4 lands in play and I was generally not casting a spell per turn. I still like the card but I 3 was definitely too many. Sideboard is a work in progress so it was omitted.
Spells 26
3x Thoughtseize
2x Magma Spray
2x Stubborn Denial
1x Tormenting Voice
4x Divination
2x Hero's Downfall
3x Anger of the Gods
2x Dissolve
2x Ætherspouts
3x Jace's Ingenuity
1x Dig Through Time
1x Murderous Cut
3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Liliana Vess
Gods 1
1x Keranos, God of Storms
Creatures 3
3x Stormbreath Dragon
Lands 27
4x Temple of Malice
4x Temple of Epiphany
4x Temple of Deceit
2x Bloodfell Caves
2x Swiftwater Cliffs
2x Dismal Backwater
3x Island
3x Mountain
2x Radiant Fountain
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Liliana Vess
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Keranos, God of Storms
Sorcery:
4 Despise
4 Anger of the Gods
2 Villainous wealth
Instants:
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Steam Augury
1 Empty the Pits
2 Murderous Cut
4 Lightning Strike
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Opulent Palace
2 Polluted Delta
4 Frontier Bivouac
6 Swamp
1 Island
5 Mountain
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Disdainful Stroke
2 Silence the Believers
3 Thoughtseize
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 AEtherspouts
1 Tormod's Crypt
The green splash is really there for the Villainous wealth, or as I call it, Bolas' Revelation. With sources of card advantage being kind of terrible in Khans, I've found this card to be amazing in every game I've casted it. Which isn't that hard. The worst part of the deck is a slower mana base, however I find it's better than painful because it gives you better longevity against mid-ranged. Given the green splash, I also find Garruk worth running of at least a 1 of. He stabilizes the board against midranged late game, and provides regular sources of removal which is always good.
The reason for despise main is in the same vein as the slower lands, less painful for me and hits most targets I care about anyway.
Pretty solid deck so far, but as I said, still needs some tuning
That statistical probability is greatly exaggerated and dwarfed by the lifeloss clause. If you feel comfortable without those few lifepoints to enable Delve or simply hitting your colors, you should play fetches, not because of minute statistics or thinning properties.
As for the deck itself...18 lands that come into play untapped, honestly given the results of the recent open the rest of your deck contents are largely irrelevant, your opponents wont have to kill you, your mana base is going to do it for them.
I ended up cutting the izzet tapped lands for 2 shivan reef, and the rakdos ones for mountain, swamp. Toyrmenting voice, stubborn denial, were bad. Ashiok and storm reath seemed like the most relevant cards. I cut the voice and an ingenuity for 2 fonts and am looking to cut one div. Anger matched poorly against my abzan and sultai opponents. I did not have enough cheep removal. And I felt like I was missing a threat. Bad list was bad. I like boarding into more dissolves against sultai. Maybe a draw go shell is better.
Ashiok and Sphinx seem fantastic against the field atm so it all comes down to whether the burn spells and Sarkhan/Dragon/Phoenix/Keranos end up being worth it. Don't care much for Anger tbh, while a fantastic card, Drown in Sorrow hedges against the smaller decks while not compromising your mana base insofar counter spells are concerned.
It could also be that ditching blue as a primary and dropping counter spells might be better in favor of a R/B base, but that would put pressure on your CA engines and Sphinx/Spouts so I'm not so sure I'd go that route.
I'm using this as a very rough base atm but I'm still undecided.
1 Ashcloud Phoenix
4 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
3 Lightning Strike
2 Bile Blight
4 Dissolve
1 Murderous Cut
2 Aetherspouts
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Jace's Ingenuity
2 Dig Through Time
2 Nullify
3 Sign in Blood
4 Swamp
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Shivan Reef
3 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Deciet
1 Temple of Malice
1 B/R dual
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Dismal Backwater
5 Island
2 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
1 Radiant Fountain
3 Swamp
1 Swiftwater Cliffs
3 Temple of Deceit
3 Temple of Epiphany
3 Temple of Malice
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Liliana Vess
1 Keranos, God of Storms
3 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Aetherspouts
3 Dissolve
1 Empty the Pits
3 Font of Fortunes
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Murderous Cut
2 Silence the Believers
3 Steam Augury
2 Stoke the Flames
3 Thoughtseize
1 Treasure Cruise
Took this list for standard tonight, going 2-2-0. R1: Abzan midrange (lost), R2: Abzan Bestow (won), R3: Mardu midrange? (won), R4: Temur midrange (super lost).
Treasure Cruise is coming out for Dig Through Time (possibly one of the Fonts as well). Silence and Cut were very frustrating to see with a 'walker on the field. Maybe Despise instead of Cut? Ashiok is still a house, and I can't possibly imagine using Prognostic Sphinx over Stormbreath. Not really sold on Liliana, may replace with a second Keranos or a Clever Impersonator. Sideboard is mostly nonexistent right now.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
This is great because it's an easy t2 play, it can go to planeswalkers, and handles much of aggro.
However, it's very bad against much of Abzan midrange and BDGG (big, dumb, green guys).
Much of standard mid-range has yet to shake out, so knowing what to pack will be difficult until we know the "top dog".
Still, Lightning Strike should be looked at as a legitimate control card.
I am on the fence about Stoke the Flames. So much so that I haven't even bothered to test it. It's 4cmc, requires double red, and doesn't kill Polyk, Siege Rhino (everybody's new favorite green fattie), or Elspeth -- where at least Lightning Strike is easy on the mana.
I was thinking of trying a combination of:
Omenspeaker + Disowned Ancestor or maybe Monastery Flock as early aggro deterrent; or maybe les of a deterrent and more along the lines of forcing them to overextend to get past the Defense which plays into Anger of the Gods and AEtherspouts.
Kind of like what Frostburn Weird provided Grixis in the last STD Format.
It'll protect Ashiok and any other walkers that anyone wants to run; and then we can do Hour of Need taking those early creatures and making them 4/4 Sphinx's with Flying.
It's probably a terrible idea; but just curious what people think?
I think Hour of Need belongs together with Thamaturge and some tokens imo.
I am going to playtest this tonight and see how I feel about running it for Thursday night at the lgs. The numbers seem a little scattered, I may need to conseledate.
Spells 27
4x Thoughtseize
2x Magma Spray
2x Bile Blight
3x Lightning Strike
2x Font of Fortunes
1x Nullify
2x Hero's Downfall
3x Dissolve
2x Steam Augury
2x Ætherspouts
2x Dig Through Time
2x Murderous Cut
Walkers 4
3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1x Keranos, God of Storms
Creatures 2
2x Stormbreath Dragon
Lands 26
2x Temple of Malice
4x Temple of Epiphany
4x Temple of Deceit
3x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Dismal Backwater
2x Island
2x Mountain
2x Swamp
2x Radiant Fountain
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Shatter
2x Stubborn Denial
1x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Empty the Pits
1x Ashcloud Phoenix
3x Anger of the Gods
1x Underworld Cerberus
1x Dissolve
2x Voyage's End
2x Negate