A resolved Assemble the Legions against us is an auto lose. I'm grateful it's really only run in American and Naya which aren't very popular right now. However with Thoughtseize main and Slaughter Games + Duress coming in out of side, I'm not sure we need much more. D spheres on the other hand are quite pesky.
Hello again, I am back with some sideboard discussion. I am attending a PTQ in Amsterdam in Sunday and I still have 2 weekly events in my local store to test out the SB and I'd like your feedback. This is my SB list:
Truth be told, I am not completely satisfied with my SB. Things I am considering are:
2 Shocks vs 2 Pharika's Cure. The 2 life gain is vital against super aggressive decks but being able to kill on turn 1 is also important since it might actually save you 2 points of damage. I am playing guildgates and a couple of scry lands so I can't always secure a turn 1 red source so I wonder what is more worth here. Double black is not hard but could pose some troubles.
1 Rakdos Charm in the place of one of the Wear//Tear s.
I want to add a couple of duresses and another slaughter games but I really can't see what I should cut. Maybe Underworld connections? Although they are amazing against control and Dark Betrayals will definitely come in handy against MBD which is, in my opinion, our weakness.
Also how do you feel about Toil//Trboule. Can it be a possible answer to a huge Sphinx's revelation?
2 Shocks vs 2 Pharika's Cure. The 2 life gain is vital against super aggressive decks but being able to kill on turn 1 is also important since it might actually save you 2 points of damage. I am playing guildgates and a couple of scry lands so I can't always secure a turn 1 red source so I wonder what is more worth here. Double black is not hard but could pose some troubles.
I like Cure more. The damage taken early is even on both (as you've observed), but Cure is much better as the game goes on. Also, your manabase should be much heavier on black than red. Besides RR for anger, the requirements for red are actually rather light.
I feel like slaughter games should be a 3-of. It's completely bonkers in any slower matchup. Our manabase by itself provides excellent pressure to complement how SG doesn't actually do anything immediately. Rakdos Return is an easy cut for it, you already have 2 main, you only want to see one really and use it to cripple them at their weakest moment. The second return in a game is not nearly as Winning. I also don't like running Dark Betrayal, we've got tons of unconditional removal and unlike Cure it doesn't have an important upside to not die against committed aggro. It's also important to note that we don't really run all that much card draw/dig, so redundancy in the board is very very important to ensure we actually see our sideboard cards reliably.
The solution to winning vs. MBD is pack rat. It's very very difficult for MBD to beat a 5-mana pack rat. We've got a much stronger control package than they do. Our cards are individually stronger than theirs and we don't rely on synergy nearly as much.
1 Rakdos Charm in the place of one of the Wear//Tear s
I actually think the best artifact destruction we have available in just RB is.. Demolish. Yes, demolish. The other two modes of charm aren't all that relevant compared to the utility of taking out an underworld connections, chained to the rocks, mutavault, or nykthos.
Also how do you feel about Toil//Trboule. Can it be a possible answer to a huge Sphinx's revelation?
Revelation is just generally not that relevant to us, we've got Very Large dragons for the Trouble effect. Just seeing more cards with Read the Bones over Toil is also much more relevant to actually winning games.
I've been running for my SB
4x Slaughter Games
1x Thoughtseize
3x Lifebane Zombie
2x Underworld Connections
4x Pharika's Cure
1x Anger of the Gods
You've got the 4th anger maindeck, and 4 slaughter games is probably excessive generally (my local meta is just completely packed with UWx), so those could get cut a bit. There's about 3-6 slots you can play with, but I think the absolutely necessary inclusions are
3x slaughter
1x TS
2x zombie
3x cure
A resolved Assemble the Legions against us is an auto lose. I'm grateful it's really only run in American and Naya which aren't very popular right now. However with Thoughtseize main and Slaughter Games + Duress coming in out of side, I'm not sure we need much more. D spheres on the other hand are quite pesky.
Rakdos Charm other modes are actually relevant. Especially against mono blue devotion, it can win you a lost game. A resolved Master of waves with 4-5 tokens means ~10 damage to the face for nothing, And by that time he will have probably taken a bunch of damage from a demon or dragon. Additionally, killing a resolved Bident is amazing. So rakdos charm has more versatility than simply an artifact killing machine. Maybe I will actually use the demolish instead of the Wear//tear, your reasoning sounds good.
I think 4 pharika's cure might be a bit excessive but I ll try 2 on friday and see how it goes.
Isn't Lifebane Zombie a solid disruption creature? I've been running him mainboard with good results.
I... don't think so, no.
I'm not seeing any green decks really right now at all, which really there's what 2? Monstrous and Dredge?
Still I guess mainboard he at least gives you a peek so you can sequence better but really I'd like a decent specter or a r/b Sin Collector. Thats niether here nor there though.
In anycase what I've been wondering about is the match-ups any updates?
Rakdos Charm other modes are actually relevant. Especially against mono blue devotion, it can win you a lost game. A resolved Master of waves with 4-5 tokens means ~10 damage to the face for nothing, And by that time he will have probably taken a bunch of damage from a demon or dragon. Additionally, killing a resolved Bident is amazing. So rakdos charm has more versatility than simply an artifact killing machine. Maybe I will actually use the demolish instead of the Wear//tear, your reasoning sounds good.
Using charm for Terrible, Terrible Damage is more cute than actually game-winning. Against U devotion, the strategy is to really emulate B devotion and Rat them out. I bring in Cure, Anger, TS, and connections and take out Rakdos Return, Dragon, and Demon (I run 4 rat, 3 demon, 3 dragon nowadays). You don't need anything more than rat, muta, and keyrune to actually win, so go hard board control.
In anycase what I've been wondering about is the match-ups any updates?
in my experience:
B devotion: 45/55
- plays out awful similar to the mirror, but they're almost certainly better equipped for that. Still not the hugest edge, we've still got much better board control than they do and access to Rakdos Return. -3 dragon +2 connections +1 TS.
U devotion: 60/40
- we just play effectively B devotion and try to rat them out, as I said ^. +4 cure +1 anger +2 Connections +1 TS -2 return -3 demon -3 dragon
UW elixir: 60/40
- All comes down to nabbing that elixir, but with my 4 slaughter games or even the more theoretically correct 3, it's not that difficult. I haven't played this particular version too much to be more confident than 60/40. +1 TS +2 connections +4 Slaughter Games -3 Anger -2 dreadbore -2 away/devour
UWx w/o elixir: 70/30
- G1 is pretty even, but G2 and G3 slaughter games crushes them. They end up forced to play a lot more threats and go much more midrange-y, which is where we already excel. +1 TS +2 connections +4 Slaughter Games -3 anger -2 rat -2 dreadbore
White Weenie: 80/20
- Maybe even 90/10. Dragon pretty much single-handedly hard-counters their entire deck. +4 cure +1 anger -2 rakdos return -1 TS -2 rat
Sligh: 70/30
- Cure+anger makes them real sad. Same sideboard plan as white weenie. Demon and dragon kinda switch roles.
Even though I say we have pretty good matchups against most everything, you have to still work for every game and play very technically tight. About the only matchup I'd say is near auto-win is white weenie.
I'm not seeing any green decks really right now at all, which really there's what 2? Monstrous and Dredge?
Still I guess mainboard he at least gives you a peek so you can sequence better but really I'd like a decent specter or a r/b Sin Collector. Thats niether here nor there though.
In anycase what I've been wondering about is the match-ups any updates?
Seems you forgot to take into account that zombie hits white as well. Blood Baron and Obzedat are extremely relavent. At least at my FNM they are. Selesnya is still a thing too
Seems you forgot to take into account that zombie hits white as well. Blood Baron and Obzedat are extremely relavent. At least at my FNM they are. Selesnya is still a thing too
Today 02:09 PM
You're right I did, but to be fair I guess that's pretty meta dependent.
Sometimes I want to right off say "selesnya is not a deck" but there's always one or 2 guys backing it in the room at a large tourney.
Thats why I'm sketchy on it as being a "solid" disruption creature, it's actually pretty narrow "Bloodbaron being what it is" compare with the closet similar guy "sin collector" and it becomes apparent. If lifebane said either " creature card" or even "g or w card" then yes it'd be super powered but from here its not that amazing less you just need a body. I does miss last breath though.
UW elixir: 60/40
- All comes down to nabbing that elixir, but with my 4 slaughter games or even the more theoretically correct 3, it's not that difficult. I haven't played this particular version too much to be more confident than 60/40. +1 TS +2 connections +4 Slaughter Games -3 Anger -2 dreadbore -2 away/devour
UWx w/o elixir: 70/30
- G1 is pretty even, but G2 and G3 slaughter games crushes them. They end up forced to play a lot more threats and go much more midrange-y, which is where we already excel. +1 TS +2 connections +4 Slaughter Games -3 anger -2 rat -2 dreadbore
Great, thats the actual matchup that I was most wondering about.
I'm suspicious of r/x because sometimes... often nowadays it produces "Dat Draw" where they curve perfectly and kill you, but pharika's cure and anger seem like cards good enough to bank on.
The most important things with these "Not the most popular in the format deck" is the matchup guides w/sideboard tips, I think.
Its super important.
Question, why not side in Slaughter games vs Black devotion? They seem pretty weak to having gary yanked (assuming you have removal for rat)
You're right I did, but to be fair I guess that's pretty meta dependent.
Sometimes I want to right off say "selesnya is not a deck" but there's always one or 2 guys backing it in the room at a large tourney.
Thats why I'm sketchy on it as being a "solid" disruption creature, it's actually pretty narrow "Bloodbaron being what it is" compare with the closet similar guy "sin collector" and it becomes apparent. If lifebane said either " creature card" or even "g or w card" then yes it'd be super powered but from here its not that amazing less you just need a body. I does miss last breath though.
I've been feeling increasingly underwhelmed by zombie as well, but am very nervous dropping it from the sideboard because as you say, there's always *somebody* playing one of the green stompy decks, whether it be devotion or selesnya. I've played without zombie in the sideboard online, and the G stompy matchup is beatable, but really hard. The last fatty I can't deal with kills me. If you want to ignore the matchup entirely that's fine too, the less decks you think about the more you can streamline against the decks you actually care about. To some extent, I feel like the deck is similar to old jund: generally solid against anything, but only loses because it didn't think you were important enough to prepare for.
With mortars and away/devour, blood baron really isn't a card against us.
Great, thats the actual matchup that I was most wondering about.
You're welcome. On second thought, it's probably more correct to leave in anger over mortars against UW elixir, since anger is more efficient against elspeth. It's the matchup I'm the least certain about, especially since it hasn't really been A Thing until well, last weekend. I'm comfortable saying we're favored, since we've got so many excellent tools to just cripple control before they can really get going.
I'm suspicious of r/x because sometimes... often nowadays it produces "Dat Draw" where they curve perfectly and kill you, but pharika's cure and anger seem like cards good enough to bank on.
The 4x cure more or less solves the matchup for me, but I have experienced them getting nuts back-to-back sometimes. Can't. Wait. For. Temple. Our temple would make T3 anger mana a complete certainty. If you're especially worried about aggro, I've run Frostburn Weird. Weird, well, just isn't all that great against anything non-aggro.
Question, why not side in Slaughter games vs Black devotion? They seem pretty weak to having gary yanked (assuming you have removal for rat)
It might be okay bringing in 2x SG. Before I even really considered my black devotion matchup I was actually forced to bring in all 4 simply because I didn't have anything better to do.. and got very very crushed in the very occasional cases that I actually played against it (it's surprisingly not very popular here). That kinda biases me against it somewhat. Cut Angers for it.
Not sure what to really change around to make it perform better. Probably going to get rid of 1x Rakdos's Return and replace it with a Devour Flesh. Either that or bring in 1x more Doom Blade from the Sideboard and add a Pithing Needle to the SB.
Not sure what to really change around to make it perform better. Probably going to get rid of 1x Rakdos's Return and replace it with a Devour Flesh. Either that or bring in 1x more Doom Blade from the Sideboard and add a Pithing Needle to the SB.
Definitely cut a Return. 3x is just too many, we only really want to see 1 in the entire game, and it's pretty awful in our opener. I'd bring in a 3rd TS from the board for it. TS is one of the main reasons to play the deck and we want to see it as reliably as possible while still hedging against how it's a bad topdeck. 3 is a good number for that. I'd put another Slaughter Games in the SB instead. 2 Slaughter Games is not really enough for it to do what we want it to do for us.
I'd cut a keyrune for a land. Keyrune is awesome, but does have the distinct downside that it really doesn't do a whole lot on the turn you cast it, unlike pretty much the rest of the deck. You're fundamentally a control deck and want to keep hitting land drops till you hit 8.
I'd switch to a creature base of 4x rat, 3x demon, 3x dragon. Zombie nowadays is pretty much strictly sideboard material.
Doom blade just isn't a great removal spell right now, I'd much rather have devour/away. I'd up the cure count in the sideboard as well. The main reason to have that kind of removal is against the more aggressive decks, and cure is better for those. Dreadbore should never be in a sideboard, it's too versatile and when I used to have it in my sideboard I found I *always* brought them in any matchup. Just play the correct number of dreadbore/downfall main in the first place. On downfall, I'd cut one of them. 3 vs. 2 mana is a big deal. With everybody now building with tons of downfall around in mind, it's value has gone way down and the efficiency of dreadbore starts to win out. Also keep in mind Blood Baron, your current removal suite can't deal with it at all (2x anger.. really doesn't count).
I moved one of my angers to the SB because we're already pretty good against aggro just by killing all the things, chumping with rats, etc. Once you untap with whip it's pretty much over since they can't race through the lifelink. Our 3 drop slot is very crowded, between downfall, anger, keyrune and using rat's ability.
I did some heavy testing against aggro decks today and I will share my thoughts:
Against RDW/Red devotion: Highly favorable match up, around 70-30 because if they win the roll then they might pull something insane game 1 and 3. We should definitely win post SB though, and since I am running 4 anger of the gods mainboard even G1 should be no problem.
Against Wx: Well, their creatures don't pose much threat, all can be killed by anger of the gods, post sideboard by ratchet bomb and dragon is amazing.
Against Blue devotion: 60-40 I would say, post sideboard should be no prob, game one could be hard, if they get the roll it might be 55-45 but still we have a ton of ways to stabilize.
Against Rakdos haste: 60-40 actually it is a hard MU cause if you et stack in sorcery speed removals they might be faster than RDW.
Against Selesnya: The hard aggro MU imo, because selesnya charm destroys our demon, brave the elements saves his dude from anger and if we can't resolve anger then Voice is a huge problem. Probablt 55-45 though still.
Is it viable to splash white to run Blood Baron instead of Dragon and include Wear//Tear against D-Spheres and Assemble the Legion? I personally prefer Blood Baron just because he has pro black and can gain you life, even if Dragon has the potential for faster kills.
Is it viable to splash white to run Blood Baron instead of Dragon and include Wear//Tear against D-Spheres and Assemble the Legion? I personally prefer Blood Baron just because he has pro black and can gain you life, even if Dragon has the potential for faster kills.
This is my current list I run for FNM I've gone 3-1-1 and 4-1 both times with this deck.
I do normally well against most decks with the exception of selesnya. I feel like maybe im too slow to work against voice and troustani. Once I do go for a removal the have a gods willing or something similar and its useless to try to outrace them when they can populate a wurms.
Esper and U/W control I do well after sideboard with sire of insanity and striking with runes/vaults.
Looking for suggestions on my sideboard to assist with selesnya matches and maybe mono U devo.
The problem you're having against selesnya and MUD is that you just don't have enough removal/one-or-ones and too many threats. You run 7 w/ 1 TS. I run *14* w/ 3 TS (3x downfall, 3x anger, 3x far//away, 2x dreadbore, 3x mortars). My threat base is 4 mutavault, 2 keyrune, 3-4 rat (depending on how I feel at the moment), 3 dragon, and 3 demon. Each of those threats serve a specific role. You don't need Cerberus. Demon already fills the role Cerberus would, but much more efficiently.
Your sideboard is rather a mess. It's got too many maindeck cards, particularly RtB, TS, sire of insanity, devour flesh, and keyrune. It's okay to run the 4th TS in the sideboard, but right now you only have 2 in the 75.
Lifebane zombie nowadays is underwhelming maindeck and should be in the sideboard. I know Pharika's cure has gotten popular in mono-black a lot lately, but it's really not that good maindeck for us and we have access to Dreadbore which is generally better. Dreadbore is always relevant through to the endgame, Cures get awful past about T4 and are also blanks in too many matchups. Cures are definitely all-stars in the sideboard against R and W aggro, though (and I'd bring them in vs. MUD too). Magma Jet has the same problem as cure, two damage just gets too irrelevant too quickly.
1 or 2 whip of erebos is nearly mandatory. We do a lot of self-damage and it's about the only decent form of lifegain we can run in the format.
This is my current list I run for FNM I've gone 3-1-1 and 4-1 both times with this deck.
I do normally well against most decks with the exception of selesnya. I feel like maybe im too slow to work against voice and troustani. Once I do go for a removal the have a gods willing or something similar and its useless to try to outrace them when they can populate a wurms.
Esper and U/W control I do well after sideboard with sire of insanity and striking with runes/vaults.
Looking for suggestions on my sideboard to assist with selesnya matches and maybe mono U devo.
I like underworld cerberus main because your opponent has to have a creature board to deal with it if they don't use a removal on it. Don't get me wrong Desecration demon is a GREAT play but he can be kept in infinite limbo if someone starts token popping with an Elspeth or an assemble the legion, or even just RDW creature drops.
I don't like running many thoughtseize because I feel against most decks it isn't worth having unless you get it in your first 10 cards. With how slow this deck is I hate burning myself for more.
Lifebane zombie is a swing through (normally) and a hand peek at the very least. Theres been more times than not where that hand peek was worth it, sure with thoughtseize you get to peek AND remove a card but at the cost of 2 life and a potential useful card slot to be honest i'm not sure why im not 100% sold on thoughtseize
Sire of insanity in sideboard is great for esper and can work against MUD as well nicely, I used to mainboard it until I moved it for Cerberus but Im having trouble finding something more beneficial late game against control. Pairing sire of insanity and using rakdos charm is great vs esper and reanimator (which is becoming a thing locally)
I have considered adding back in more thoughtseize and more dreadbore but I like the magma jet as a scry card and sometimes paired with anger of the gods.
at this coming FNM ill try moving a 3 lifebane zombie to SB and adding 3 dreadbore. 2 magma jet for 2 thoughtseize and leaving the rest of the deck as is........Hopefully I'll wake up and smell the coffee on thoughtseize
EDIT: by the way tuxdev, I proxy'd your deck list and REALLY liked it but I want to try and run it without the blue splash.
I like underworld cerberus main because your opponent has to have a creature board to deal with it if they don't use a removal on it. Don't get me wrong Desecration demon is a GREAT play but he can be kept in infinite limbo if someone starts token popping with an Elspeth or an assemble the legion, or even just RDW creature drops.
Elspeth just takes both cerberus and demon down with the second ability. Overall elspeth isn't a big deal for me with 3 downfalls and 2 dreadbore. Cerberus is a card without a format like Demon used to be. These are the important properties that Demon and Cerberus share:
1. Extremely large at 6/6 (so hard for red removal to take down)
2. Undercosted (6/6 for 5 is still slightly undercosted)
3. No resilience to hard non-red removal (particularly, Detention sphere and Hero's Downfall).
The property that Cerberus has but DOES NOT MATTER:
1. Evasion
Why does it not matter? Because the game plan of the deck is to keep the board clear, like any control deck. Evasion is irrelevant when there's nothing to block anyway. 6 threats with those properties is too many and at 5 mana, cerberus is a significant tempo loss. My usual 5-mana tapout play is to attack with a keyrune and mutavault, often even if I have a dragon in hand. 3 dumb fatties is sufficient to make aggro decks have a bad time.
I don't like running many thoughtseize because I feel against most decks it isn't worth having unless you get it in your first 10 cards. With how slow this deck is I hate burning myself for more.
Thoughtseize, mutavault, and pack rat are the best cards in the format. Skimping significantly on any of them means that you're losing out on raw power.Yeah, TS is not great when you don't see one in your first 10, but it's so absurdly good when it is that it's absolutely worth running at least 3 maindeck. Also, Funny thing about rat, is that it nicely covers for Thoughtseize's very real downside since you can just discard it for moar rats.
Lifebane zombie is a swing through (normally) and a hand peek at the very least. Theres been more times than not where that hand peek was worth it, sure with thoughtseize you get to peek AND remove a card but at the cost of 2 life and a potential useful card slot to be honest i'm not sure why im not 100% sold on thoughtseize
Yep, looking at their hand is very crucial, but playing the right number of TS does that for you and is generally more powerful. One of the most critical skills with this deck is properly managing your life total. 2 life for their best card is 99.99% of the time going to ultimately save you enough life in the long run to make it totally worth it.
Sire of insanity in sideboard is great for esper and can work against MUD as well nicely, I used to mainboard it until I moved it for Cerberus but Im having trouble finding something more beneficial late game against control. Pairing sire of insanity and using rakdos charm is great vs esper and reanimator (which is becoming a thing locally)
With the combination of 4x TS, 3-4 Slaughter games and 2x Rakdos Return postboard, our UWx matchup is ridiculously one-sided. Their life is just miserable because we cripple and then systematically dismantle their deck. Those sideboard slots are better used to shore up other matchups.
I have considered adding back in more thoughtseize and more dreadbore but I like the magma jet as a scry card and sometimes paired with anger of the gods.
at this coming FNM ill try moving a 3 lifebane zombie to SB and adding 3 dreadbore. 2 magma jet for 2 thoughtseize and leaving the rest of the deck as is........Hopefully I'll wake up and smell the coffee on thoughtseize
To start with that's reasonable. Running 3 TS vs. 1 will by itself make the deck feel very different (and more powerful). Leaving Cure in is a reasonable meta call, since it's very nice vs. aggro, blue devo, and mutavault. I would drop an anger to the SB if you do that though. 6 cards that are mostly dead vs. non-aggressive decks is a bit much. It's nice to clear out elspeth tokens with anger and mutavault with cure, but you'll still generally wish those cards were different (fortunately, again, rat).
EDIT: by the way tuxdev, I proxy'd your deck list and REALLY liked it but I want to try and run it without the blue splash.
Thanks! Actually, the last posted list in this thread is rather obsolete now. Currently I've got
Points of Interest:
1. Underworld Connections rather than Read the Bones. RtB is the generically more powerful card whereas Connections is just too slow vs. aggro (I need the cards *now* and I'm only spending 3 mana, not 5). However, rat is too debilitating to our own game plan without having a connections so I was forced to make the swap.
2. No Thoughtflare. Well, I was pushing it a bit much in the first place and it was amazing for me, but rat/connections does that job more consistently.
3. Demolish SB. Chained, Connections, Mutavault and Nykthos are commonly played relevant targets. Can sometimes randomly color- or mana-screw someone too, though that's generally a sign of win-more.
You can easily cut the blue splash and run devours instead of away, but I still recommend playing temples of some color.. and then you might as well try to get some value out of that very light splash. I personally like blue for far//away and used to also have an easier time running frostburn weird (which is still really good for our deck, but the meta has shifted away from it being good enough). In white there's Assemble, wear//tear, blood baron(instead of dragon) and an easier reckoner. White is rationally a more powerful splash than blue, especially with 8 possible temples (though I'd run 6 absolute max and 4 is really the sane number), but I'm too much of a blue mage at heart and can't completely let go.
If reanimator is seriously enough of a thing to devote SB slots for, there is always Cremate. Before M14 reanimator was soooo much a thing that I actually maindecked them for a few weeks and it was *hilarious* to see the reaction from them G1. "Yeah, I just countered that rites for 1 mana, you can't rites it again, and I didn't lose a card for it". I also ran Evolving Wilds so I was fairly certain to have a target for it no matter what (man, do I wish we still had wilds, they are so much better than guildgates, I used to run 3 color mutilate thanks to them).
Why is Rakdos's Return better than Sire of Insanity? I had several UW players mention that Sire is just a beating that they have to top deck an answer to, and Underworld Connections allows us to get (sorta) around the discard penalty from Sire.
I'd also mention that against UW opponents they all sided into multiple threats in anticipation of Slaughter Games. Memory Adept, Elspeth, Aetherling. I nabbed 2 Aetherling off Slaughter but they just run so much counter magic that they could protect their one threat. I was running Read the Bones instead of Underworld Connections and I feel like it's better to overload their Detention Spheres so Underworld Connections is probably better than Read the Bones.
It's good to see the consensus change on pack rat. Many decks in the format will auto-lose to a T1 thoughtseize T2 pack rat. Although this certainly does not make the mirrors enjoyable.
Generally speaking, the format is rewarding a lowered curve. If you don't believe me, you can find plenty of evidence in the lists that are top 8ing.
Even esper, king of the bloated good-card, high-CC decks, is now running 8 or more 1/2 CC cards. BBD might be running 4 blood barons, but he's also running 6 2cc removal spells and 3 thoughtseizes to compensate for the high curve. His board also only contains one card over 3 mana.
MBD is running 12+ 1/2cc. MUD is running 19+. MBD, in particular, is interesting since it plays out similarly to BR. The deck is bloated at the 3-spot - UC, nightveil, and downfall. 12 3cc cards should be a warning to any deck-builder. MBD has compensated by cutting down on the 4-slots of the deck, running devour flesh to make sure their 2cc removal hits, and making sure that even though they are a midrange deck with access to "good" mana (only 3 tapped lands), they play as many 1-2 cc cards as they can fit into the deck. BR isn't quite as pressured since it has access to AotG, but there still are many good reasons to run as many good 1/2 CC cards as you can fit.
I've personally found that I win much more often with a lower-curve version of BR than with a higher one. Looking around the meta, it seems that things are speeding up, and there's a concerted effort to limit the number of cards at each spot in the curve, and to make sure a player's overall curve is low enough.
Reducing the curve of your removal is helpful against MUD, pack rats in MBD, MRD and aggro decks. Decks are "cutting the fat" so to speak. If anyone wants to improve their list, I'd recommend that they take a good hard look at their curve. 2 6cc slots (effectively Rakdos's Return), 4 5cc slots, and 4-5 4cc slots is arguably as high as you want to go. Remember, BR isn't playing as many inherently powerful cards as the control decks in the meta. You can't rely on a top-deck'd rev to win you the game - your goal is to set up a window in which you can win. Any card over 4 mana should be looked at long and hard before warranting its inclusion. Also, having 15-20 3cc slots in a deck is a giant red flag. Each of those cards needs to be particularly powerful to justify wrecking your curve.
Concerning mana, if we're going to far/away with 4 U sources, fine - the card is still useful with only B. Yet, there's a very good reason decks don't run colored cards with 4 sources. MBD with a W splash still runs 8+ W sources for it's blood barons. We should not be running cards that require G/W/U without a different mana base. Since temples are useful for the scry, a W or U splash may very well be beneficial to the deck. But again....let's splash properly. If we're going to be running cards that *require* a color of mana to cast, run the full 8 sources.
Concerning running whip of erebos, I think it's helpful to look at the number MBD players are running. In SCG Las Vegas, Rivera completely cut MB whips and runs a singleton Erebos. In fact, if you look at Rivera's and Turtenwald's lists, Whip of Erebos is missing from both their 75s. In fact, it's gone from most of the recent top 8 finishes. MBD seems like the perfect home for the card. Past what it provides BR, it builds devotion for merchants. In addition, there is a good deal of synergy between whip merchant. Play a merchant and drain for 8. If it manages to die (perhaps to MBD's own removal), drain for another 8? Sounds pretty good.
Yet, if the card is so powerful, why was it cut from 2 to 1....and eventually all together from MBD? One might respond "well, MBD has merchants to gain life, and so the life-loss from whip is less important to them". They'd be right - merchant certainly does gain life, but they'd be down the wrong track; the reason to cut whip has little to do with life gain. It turns out that while the whip builds devotion and has powerful interactions with merchant, it doesn't impact the board state powerfully enough for a 4-drop. Desecration demon combines poorly with the whip; if you're able to play 2 4-drops that an aggro opponent can't interact, and they don't have creatures to sacrifice, you should win the game. Lifeloss is something that adds up in BR (and life management is one of the trickier aspects of the deck), but if you're routinely connecting with demons and dragons, you're probably winning the game. Having a whip and a demon out, and having your demon get chained to the rocks or downfall'd, is painful. In almost all circumstances (burn heavy decks being an exception) I'll take the second demon over a whip.
Whip of Erebos is a 4-drop that provides no benefit on it's own. It helps your demons and dragons race and brings back your rats, but it allows your opponent to ignore the whip and simply remove your threats. There's a good reason why the card's signature deck has cut it. It doesn't matter if it gains you life; it typically only gains you life when you're already winning. It's win-more in MBD. It's even more win-more in BR.
So what else has changed in the last month or so? I've always maintained that stormbreath is a card I dislike running in the deck. I've tried hard to make Underworld Cerberus, Master of Cruelties and Chandra work (for the record, a singleton Chandra seems quite effective). Yet, I'm finally back to running 2 Rakdos's Return, 2 Stormbreath Dragons, 4 demons and 1 Chandra (cutting the Chandra may be correct). Why? The rise of UW control. The dragon still dies to wrath, elspeth and flare, but I guess you can't have everything. I still don't think we want to jam 4 of them (even in games 2 and 3) since UW is very much a draw-go shell. Still, a dragon following up a wrath is a solid play.
I also agree that slaughter games is amazing against UW. I've been running 1-2 on and off in my board the last few months. Naming Sphinx's Revelation absolutely cripples the Huey-style UW control shell. Seeing more than one isn't a problem either; they rely on dissolve, sphere and verdict heavily. You can also simply strip them of win-cons since you have perfect deck information.
Against UWx, slaughter games becomes much worse. Naming revelation still hurts these decks, but both American and Esper have a lot more ways to kill you. It's still good, just not as back-breaking as against UW control. Against American, it may be correct to name Assemble the Legion with the first slaughter games. I've named rev with slaughter games, revealed an assemble in their hand which will come down next turn, and immediately conceded. If you name assemble first, they'll often get off a decent sized rev first...at which point the damage is mostly done.
Whether to run 1, 2, 3 or 4 in your SB is largely a meta-call. 1-2 seems OK to good against nearly all control. If you expect UW to be particularly popular, run 3. If you expect to see a ton of UW elixir variant, you probably want 4.
Your quoting isn't working right so it's kinda tough to track.
Why is Rakdos's Return better than Sire of Insanity? I had several UW players mention that Sire is just a beating that they have to top deck an answer to, and Underworld Connections allows us to get (sorta) around the discard penalty from Sire.
I'd also mention that against UW opponents they all sided into multiple threats in anticipation of Slaughter Games. Memory Adept, Elspeth, Aetherling. I nabbed 2 Aetherling off Slaughter but they just run so much counter magic that they could protect their one threat. I was running Read the Bones instead of Underworld Connections and I feel like it's better to overload their Detention Spheres so Underworld Connections is probably better than Read the Bones.
This is still fundamentally more a control deck and in control vs. control, it's all about card advantage. Sire's downside is a very real problem, and you only really need to clean their hand out once to cripple them enough to win.
A UWx siding into more threats plays right into our game plan. Their deck really isn't set up to fight during that phase of the game, and it's where our power really spikes.
Concerning running whip of erebos, I think it's helpful to look at the number MBD players are running. In SCG Las Vegas, Rivera completely cut MB whips and runs a singleton Erebos. In fact, if you look at Rivera's and Turtenwald's lists, Whip of Erebos is missing from both their 75s. In fact, it's gone from most of the recent top 8 finishes. MBD seems like the perfect home for the card. Past what it provides BR, it builds devotion for merchants. In addition, there is a good deal of synergy between whip merchant. Play a merchant and drain for 8. If it manages to die (perhaps to MBD's own removal), drain for another 8? Sounds pretty good.
Yet, if the card is so powerful, why was it cut from 2 to 1....and eventually all together from MBD? One might respond "well, MBD has merchants to gain life, and so the life-loss from whip is less important to them". They'd be right - merchant certainly does gain life, but they'd be down the wrong track; the reason to cut whip has little to do with life gain. It turns out that while the whip builds devotion and has powerful interactions with merchant, it doesn't impact the board state powerfully enough for a 4-drop. Desecration demon combines poorly with the whip; if you're able to play 2 4-drops that an aggro opponent can't interact, and they don't have creatures to sacrifice, you should win the game. Lifeloss is something that adds up in BR (and life management is one of the trickier aspects of the deck), but if you're routinely connecting with demons and dragons, you're probably winning the game. Having a whip and a demon out, and having your demon get chained to the rocks or downfall'd, is painful. In almost all circumstances (burn heavy decks being an exception) I'll take the second demon over a whip.
Whip of Erebos is a 4-drop that provides no benefit on it's own. It helps your demons and dragons race and brings back your rats, but it allows your opponent to ignore the whip and simply remove your threats. There's a good reason why the card's signature deck has cut it. It doesn't matter if it gains you life; it typically only gains you life when you're already winning. It's win-more in MBD. It's even more win-more in BR.
You say that the lifegain from merchant isn't really the point, but that's completely wrong. That lifegain is *how* they can get away with dropping whip. We don't have that (I guess we could play merchants too.. but that really turns this even more into an MBD variant than it has already ended up being). I'm very frequently "stabilizing" at 4 or less life against either flavor of boros aggro and hoping they brick long enough for me to somehow steal the game. Yes, demon isn't great with whip, but we have 11 other threats to get important lifegain value with. Without that lifegain, we can't actually turn the corner and fully stabilize and are under constant threat of suddenly getting burnt out. Whip is definitely *not* win-more.
@Ckangas Illness in the ranks please... Shut down elspeth & Asemble
Most UW doesnt bring aetherling anymore, drop down Ilness, Slaughter their sphere, that's it. they can revelation and perhaps elixir whatever they want.
Slaughtering sphere helps at our Pack Rat plan as well.
I really like the position of RB control against the field right now. I know people say that Black Devotion is the only deck that can play 4 Pack Rats, 4 Mutavault, and 4 Thoughtseize but in reality this deck has that same ability plus it offers a great package to deal with pack rat in Anger of the Gods.
Anger of the Gods also seems like the best answer to the Xathrid Necromancer deck and a good answer to the Boros White Weenie. It seems okay vs. Mono Blue Devotion as a single Judge's Familiar can push it back to turn 4 and it only really hits about half their creatures.
My concern is we're not good against bigger control decks game 1. We have to be smart and be aware of the clock and if we spend 30 minutes grinding out a loss in game 1 the match is going to be hard to win.
My other concern is against big midrange decks with creatures with 5 or more toughness. I'm not seeing these decks very much right now but with Anger of the Gods and Mizzium Mortars as sweepers there are going to be matchups where we don't have effective sweepers. It's kind of similar to mono-blue where our Anger will take out some of their creatures (mana dorks) but not the ramp targets. Again this is just a concern, certainly not a reason to not play this deck.
I think this deck is also poor game 1 to the random FNM decks that people bring to the table like Turbo Fog and Maze's End. Sure in the sideboard access to Slaughter Games can sometimes derail their deck, but sometimes Slaughter Games is only as good as how familiar you are with the deck.
All in all I think this deck is pretty good in an environment where you have a good understanding of what was going to be played. If I had 3 byes at a grand prize I might deck this up because I think it has decent matchups against the tier one decks and my opponents probably haven't had as much experience playing against Rakdos Control. But for FNM you'll get paired against Sphere of Safety/Heliod deck game 1 and just trapped in the 0-1 bracket, where you face Slivers ft. Door of Destinies and you're pretty much dependent on drawing your Anger of the Gods or you'll face an army of Slivers that laughs at your pack rat tokens. (No joke I played an opponent that had kept a hand of 3 Door of Destinies, 3 lands and the +1/+1 Sliver. I thoughtseize one door and she eventually drew the fourth and proceeded to go turn 4, 5, 6 with a Door of Destinies, into the sliver that was now a 5/5. I Devour Fleshed his sliver and the next turn she played Manaweft and Galerider which were now 10/10 and attacked with and 11/11 Mutavault. Generally UWx control would have alot more outs. Detention Sphere for the Doors, Supreme Verdict for the creatures, Celestial Flare or Doom Blade for Mutavault etc. Again not a reason to not play Rakdos Control but it is something to be aware of.
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Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
2x Lifebane Zombie
1x Rakdos's Return
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Shock
1x Slaughter Games
1x Thoughtseize
2x Underworld Connections
2x Wear//Tear
Truth be told, I am not completely satisfied with my SB. Things I am considering are:
2 Shocks vs 2 Pharika's Cure. The 2 life gain is vital against super aggressive decks but being able to kill on turn 1 is also important since it might actually save you 2 points of damage. I am playing guildgates and a couple of scry lands so I can't always secure a turn 1 red source so I wonder what is more worth here. Double black is not hard but could pose some troubles.
1 Rakdos Charm in the place of one of the Wear//Tear s.
I want to add a couple of duresses and another slaughter games but I really can't see what I should cut. Maybe Underworld connections? Although they are amazing against control and Dark Betrayals will definitely come in handy against MBD which is, in my opinion, our weakness.
Also how do you feel about Toil//Trboule. Can it be a possible answer to a huge Sphinx's revelation?
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I like Cure more. The damage taken early is even on both (as you've observed), but Cure is much better as the game goes on. Also, your manabase should be much heavier on black than red. Besides RR for anger, the requirements for red are actually rather light.
I feel like slaughter games should be a 3-of. It's completely bonkers in any slower matchup. Our manabase by itself provides excellent pressure to complement how SG doesn't actually do anything immediately. Rakdos Return is an easy cut for it, you already have 2 main, you only want to see one really and use it to cripple them at their weakest moment. The second return in a game is not nearly as Winning. I also don't like running Dark Betrayal, we've got tons of unconditional removal and unlike Cure it doesn't have an important upside to not die against committed aggro. It's also important to note that we don't really run all that much card draw/dig, so redundancy in the board is very very important to ensure we actually see our sideboard cards reliably.
The solution to winning vs. MBD is pack rat. It's very very difficult for MBD to beat a 5-mana pack rat. We've got a much stronger control package than they do. Our cards are individually stronger than theirs and we don't rely on synergy nearly as much.
I actually think the best artifact destruction we have available in just RB is.. Demolish. Yes, demolish. The other two modes of charm aren't all that relevant compared to the utility of taking out an underworld connections, chained to the rocks, mutavault, or nykthos.
Revelation is just generally not that relevant to us, we've got Very Large dragons for the Trouble effect. Just seeing more cards with Read the Bones over Toil is also much more relevant to actually winning games.
I've been running for my SB
4x Slaughter Games
1x Thoughtseize
3x Lifebane Zombie
2x Underworld Connections
4x Pharika's Cure
1x Anger of the Gods
You've got the 4th anger maindeck, and 4 slaughter games is probably excessive generally (my local meta is just completely packed with UWx), so those could get cut a bit. There's about 3-6 slots you can play with, but I think the absolutely necessary inclusions are
3x slaughter
1x TS
2x zombie
3x cure
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We can use Illness in the ranks works well against Elspeth too
I think 4 pharika's cure might be a bit excessive but I ll try 2 on friday and see how it goes.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I... don't think so, no.
I'm not seeing any green decks really right now at all, which really there's what 2? Monstrous and Dredge?
Still I guess mainboard he at least gives you a peek so you can sequence better but really I'd like a decent specter or a r/b Sin Collector. Thats niether here nor there though.
In anycase what I've been wondering about is the match-ups any updates?
Using charm for Terrible, Terrible Damage is more cute than actually game-winning. Against U devotion, the strategy is to really emulate B devotion and Rat them out. I bring in Cure, Anger, TS, and connections and take out Rakdos Return, Dragon, and Demon (I run 4 rat, 3 demon, 3 dragon nowadays). You don't need anything more than rat, muta, and keyrune to actually win, so go hard board control.
in my experience:
B devotion: 45/55
- plays out awful similar to the mirror, but they're almost certainly better equipped for that. Still not the hugest edge, we've still got much better board control than they do and access to Rakdos Return. -3 dragon +2 connections +1 TS.
U devotion: 60/40
- we just play effectively B devotion and try to rat them out, as I said ^. +4 cure +1 anger +2 Connections +1 TS -2 return -3 demon -3 dragon
UW elixir: 60/40
- All comes down to nabbing that elixir, but with my 4 slaughter games or even the more theoretically correct 3, it's not that difficult. I haven't played this particular version too much to be more confident than 60/40. +1 TS +2 connections +4 Slaughter Games -3 Anger -2 dreadbore -2 away/devour
UWx w/o elixir: 70/30
- G1 is pretty even, but G2 and G3 slaughter games crushes them. They end up forced to play a lot more threats and go much more midrange-y, which is where we already excel. +1 TS +2 connections +4 Slaughter Games -3 anger -2 rat -2 dreadbore
White Weenie: 80/20
- Maybe even 90/10. Dragon pretty much single-handedly hard-counters their entire deck. +4 cure +1 anger -2 rakdos return -1 TS -2 rat
Sligh: 70/30
- Cure+anger makes them real sad. Same sideboard plan as white weenie. Demon and dragon kinda switch roles.
Even though I say we have pretty good matchups against most everything, you have to still work for every game and play very technically tight. About the only matchup I'd say is near auto-win is white weenie.
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Seems you forgot to take into account that zombie hits white as well. Blood Baron and Obzedat are extremely relavent. At least at my FNM they are. Selesnya is still a thing too
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
You're right I did, but to be fair I guess that's pretty meta dependent.
Sometimes I want to right off say "selesnya is not a deck" but there's always one or 2 guys backing it in the room at a large tourney.
Thats why I'm sketchy on it as being a "solid" disruption creature, it's actually pretty narrow "Bloodbaron being what it is" compare with the closet similar guy "sin collector" and it becomes apparent. If lifebane said either " creature card" or even "g or w card" then yes it'd be super powered but from here its not that amazing less you just need a body. I does miss last breath though.
Great, thats the actual matchup that I was most wondering about.
I'm suspicious of r/x because sometimes... often nowadays it produces "Dat Draw" where they curve perfectly and kill you, but pharika's cure and anger seem like cards good enough to bank on.
The most important things with these "Not the most popular in the format deck" is the matchup guides w/sideboard tips, I think.
Its super important.
Question, why not side in Slaughter games vs Black devotion? They seem pretty weak to having gary yanked (assuming you have removal for rat)
I've been feeling increasingly underwhelmed by zombie as well, but am very nervous dropping it from the sideboard because as you say, there's always *somebody* playing one of the green stompy decks, whether it be devotion or selesnya. I've played without zombie in the sideboard online, and the G stompy matchup is beatable, but really hard. The last fatty I can't deal with kills me. If you want to ignore the matchup entirely that's fine too, the less decks you think about the more you can streamline against the decks you actually care about. To some extent, I feel like the deck is similar to old jund: generally solid against anything, but only loses because it didn't think you were important enough to prepare for.
With mortars and away/devour, blood baron really isn't a card against us.
You're welcome. On second thought, it's probably more correct to leave in anger over mortars against UW elixir, since anger is more efficient against elspeth. It's the matchup I'm the least certain about, especially since it hasn't really been A Thing until well, last weekend. I'm comfortable saying we're favored, since we've got so many excellent tools to just cripple control before they can really get going.
The 4x cure more or less solves the matchup for me, but I have experienced them getting nuts back-to-back sometimes. Can't. Wait. For. Temple. Our temple would make T3 anger mana a complete certainty. If you're especially worried about aggro, I've run Frostburn Weird. Weird, well, just isn't all that great against anything non-aggro.
It might be okay bringing in 2x SG. Before I even really considered my black devotion matchup I was actually forced to bring in all 4 simply because I didn't have anything better to do.. and got very very crushed in the very occasional cases that I actually played against it (it's surprisingly not very popular here). That kinda biases me against it somewhat. Cut Angers for it.
Twitch channel
4x Blood Crypt
6x Mountain
4x Mutavault
4x Rakdos Guildgate
7x Swamp
Sorcery (14)
4x Anger of the Gods
2x Dreadbore
3x Rakdos's Return
3x Read the Bones
2x Thoughtseize
2x Doom Blade
4x Hero's Downfall
Enchantment (2)
2x Whip of Erebos
Artifact (3)
3x Rakdos Keyrune
Creature (10)
4x Desecration Demon
2x Lifebane Zombie
4x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Doom Blade
2x Dreadbore
3x Duress
2x Lifebane Zombie
2x Pharika's Cure
2x Slaughter Games
2x Thoughtseize
Not sure what to really change around to make it perform better. Probably going to get rid of 1x Rakdos's Return and replace it with a Devour Flesh. Either that or bring in 1x more Doom Blade from the Sideboard and add a Pithing Needle to the SB.
Definitely cut a Return. 3x is just too many, we only really want to see 1 in the entire game, and it's pretty awful in our opener. I'd bring in a 3rd TS from the board for it. TS is one of the main reasons to play the deck and we want to see it as reliably as possible while still hedging against how it's a bad topdeck. 3 is a good number for that. I'd put another Slaughter Games in the SB instead. 2 Slaughter Games is not really enough for it to do what we want it to do for us.
I'd cut a keyrune for a land. Keyrune is awesome, but does have the distinct downside that it really doesn't do a whole lot on the turn you cast it, unlike pretty much the rest of the deck. You're fundamentally a control deck and want to keep hitting land drops till you hit 8.
I'd switch to a creature base of 4x rat, 3x demon, 3x dragon. Zombie nowadays is pretty much strictly sideboard material.
Doom blade just isn't a great removal spell right now, I'd much rather have devour/away. I'd up the cure count in the sideboard as well. The main reason to have that kind of removal is against the more aggressive decks, and cure is better for those. Dreadbore should never be in a sideboard, it's too versatile and when I used to have it in my sideboard I found I *always* brought them in any matchup. Just play the correct number of dreadbore/downfall main in the first place. On downfall, I'd cut one of them. 3 vs. 2 mana is a big deal. With everybody now building with tons of downfall around in mind, it's value has gone way down and the efficiency of dreadbore starts to win out. Also keep in mind Blood Baron, your current removal suite can't deal with it at all (2x anger.. really doesn't count).
I moved one of my angers to the SB because we're already pretty good against aggro just by killing all the things, chumping with rats, etc. Once you untap with whip it's pretty much over since they can't race through the lifelink. Our 3 drop slot is very crowded, between downfall, anger, keyrune and using rat's ability.
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Against RDW/Red devotion: Highly favorable match up, around 70-30 because if they win the roll then they might pull something insane game 1 and 3. We should definitely win post SB though, and since I am running 4 anger of the gods mainboard even G1 should be no problem.
Against Wx: Well, their creatures don't pose much threat, all can be killed by anger of the gods, post sideboard by ratchet bomb and dragon is amazing.
Against Blue devotion: 60-40 I would say, post sideboard should be no prob, game one could be hard, if they get the roll it might be 55-45 but still we have a ton of ways to stabilize.
Against Rakdos haste: 60-40 actually it is a hard MU cause if you et stack in sorcery speed removals they might be faster than RDW.
Against Selesnya: The hard aggro MU imo, because selesnya charm destroys our demon, brave the elements saves his dude from anger and if we can't resolve anger then Voice is a huge problem. Probablt 55-45 though still.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Sure! In fact, let me point you towards a 149 page forum thread discussing this.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
I do normally well against most decks with the exception of selesnya. I feel like maybe im too slow to work against voice and troustani. Once I do go for a removal the have a gods willing or something similar and its useless to try to outrace them when they can populate a wurms.
Esper and U/W control I do well after sideboard with sire of insanity and striking with runes/vaults.
Looking for suggestions on my sideboard to assist with selesnya matches and maybe mono U devo.
side board
Your sideboard is rather a mess. It's got too many maindeck cards, particularly RtB, TS, sire of insanity, devour flesh, and keyrune. It's okay to run the 4th TS in the sideboard, but right now you only have 2 in the 75.
Lifebane zombie nowadays is underwhelming maindeck and should be in the sideboard. I know Pharika's cure has gotten popular in mono-black a lot lately, but it's really not that good maindeck for us and we have access to Dreadbore which is generally better. Dreadbore is always relevant through to the endgame, Cures get awful past about T4 and are also blanks in too many matchups. Cures are definitely all-stars in the sideboard against R and W aggro, though (and I'd bring them in vs. MUD too). Magma Jet has the same problem as cure, two damage just gets too irrelevant too quickly.
1 or 2 whip of erebos is nearly mandatory. We do a lot of self-damage and it's about the only decent form of lifegain we can run in the format.
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I like underworld cerberus main because your opponent has to have a creature board to deal with it if they don't use a removal on it. Don't get me wrong Desecration demon is a GREAT play but he can be kept in infinite limbo if someone starts token popping with an Elspeth or an assemble the legion, or even just RDW creature drops.
I don't like running many thoughtseize because I feel against most decks it isn't worth having unless you get it in your first 10 cards. With how slow this deck is I hate burning myself for more.
Lifebane zombie is a swing through (normally) and a hand peek at the very least. Theres been more times than not where that hand peek was worth it, sure with thoughtseize you get to peek AND remove a card but at the cost of 2 life and a potential useful card slot to be honest i'm not sure why im not 100% sold on thoughtseize
Sire of insanity in sideboard is great for esper and can work against MUD as well nicely, I used to mainboard it until I moved it for Cerberus but Im having trouble finding something more beneficial late game against control. Pairing sire of insanity and using rakdos charm is great vs esper and reanimator (which is becoming a thing locally)
I have considered adding back in more thoughtseize and more dreadbore but I like the magma jet as a scry card and sometimes paired with anger of the gods.
at this coming FNM ill try moving a 3 lifebane zombie to SB and adding 3 dreadbore. 2 magma jet for 2 thoughtseize and leaving the rest of the deck as is........Hopefully I'll wake up and smell the coffee on thoughtseize
EDIT: by the way tuxdev, I proxy'd your deck list and REALLY liked it but I want to try and run it without the blue splash.
Elspeth just takes both cerberus and demon down with the second ability. Overall elspeth isn't a big deal for me with 3 downfalls and 2 dreadbore. Cerberus is a card without a format like Demon used to be. These are the important properties that Demon and Cerberus share:
1. Extremely large at 6/6 (so hard for red removal to take down)
2. Undercosted (6/6 for 5 is still slightly undercosted)
3. No resilience to hard non-red removal (particularly, Detention sphere and Hero's Downfall).
The property that Cerberus has but DOES NOT MATTER:
1. Evasion
Why does it not matter? Because the game plan of the deck is to keep the board clear, like any control deck. Evasion is irrelevant when there's nothing to block anyway. 6 threats with those properties is too many and at 5 mana, cerberus is a significant tempo loss. My usual 5-mana tapout play is to attack with a keyrune and mutavault, often even if I have a dragon in hand. 3 dumb fatties is sufficient to make aggro decks have a bad time.
Thoughtseize, mutavault, and pack rat are the best cards in the format. Skimping significantly on any of them means that you're losing out on raw power.Yeah, TS is not great when you don't see one in your first 10, but it's so absurdly good when it is that it's absolutely worth running at least 3 maindeck. Also, Funny thing about rat, is that it nicely covers for Thoughtseize's very real downside since you can just discard it for moar rats.
Yep, looking at their hand is very crucial, but playing the right number of TS does that for you and is generally more powerful. One of the most critical skills with this deck is properly managing your life total. 2 life for their best card is 99.99% of the time going to ultimately save you enough life in the long run to make it totally worth it.
With the combination of 4x TS, 3-4 Slaughter games and 2x Rakdos Return postboard, our UWx matchup is ridiculously one-sided. Their life is just miserable because we cripple and then systematically dismantle their deck. Those sideboard slots are better used to shore up other matchups.
To start with that's reasonable. Running 3 TS vs. 1 will by itself make the deck feel very different (and more powerful). Leaving Cure in is a reasonable meta call, since it's very nice vs. aggro, blue devo, and mutavault. I would drop an anger to the SB if you do that though. 6 cards that are mostly dead vs. non-aggressive decks is a bit much. It's nice to clear out elspeth tokens with anger and mutavault with cure, but you'll still generally wish those cards were different (fortunately, again, rat).
Thanks! Actually, the last posted list in this thread is rather obsolete now. Currently I've got
3 Desecration Demon
3 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Pack Rat
Artifacts
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Rakdos Keyrune
Sorceries
2 Rakdos's Return
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Thoughtseize
2 Dreadbore
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Underworld Connections
Instants
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Far//Away
Land
6 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Mutavault
4 Slaughter Games
3 Lifebane Zombie
4 Pharika's Cure
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Thoughtseize
2 Demolish
Points of Interest:
1. Underworld Connections rather than Read the Bones. RtB is the generically more powerful card whereas Connections is just too slow vs. aggro (I need the cards *now* and I'm only spending 3 mana, not 5). However, rat is too debilitating to our own game plan without having a connections so I was forced to make the swap.
2. No Thoughtflare. Well, I was pushing it a bit much in the first place and it was amazing for me, but rat/connections does that job more consistently.
3. Demolish SB. Chained, Connections, Mutavault and Nykthos are commonly played relevant targets. Can sometimes randomly color- or mana-screw someone too, though that's generally a sign of win-more.
You can easily cut the blue splash and run devours instead of away, but I still recommend playing temples of some color.. and then you might as well try to get some value out of that very light splash. I personally like blue for far//away and used to also have an easier time running frostburn weird (which is still really good for our deck, but the meta has shifted away from it being good enough). In white there's Assemble, wear//tear, blood baron(instead of dragon) and an easier reckoner. White is rationally a more powerful splash than blue, especially with 8 possible temples (though I'd run 6 absolute max and 4 is really the sane number), but I'm too much of a blue mage at heart and can't completely let go.
If reanimator is seriously enough of a thing to devote SB slots for, there is always Cremate. Before M14 reanimator was soooo much a thing that I actually maindecked them for a few weeks and it was *hilarious* to see the reaction from them G1. "Yeah, I just countered that rites for 1 mana, you can't rites it again, and I didn't lose a card for it". I also ran Evolving Wilds so I was fairly certain to have a target for it no matter what (man, do I wish we still had wilds, they are so much better than guildgates, I used to run 3 color mutilate thanks to them).
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I'd also mention that against UW opponents they all sided into multiple threats in anticipation of Slaughter Games. Memory Adept, Elspeth, Aetherling. I nabbed 2 Aetherling off Slaughter but they just run so much counter magic that they could protect their one threat. I was running Read the Bones instead of Underworld Connections and I feel like it's better to overload their Detention Spheres so Underworld Connections is probably better than Read the Bones.
Generally speaking, the format is rewarding a lowered curve. If you don't believe me, you can find plenty of evidence in the lists that are top 8ing.
Even esper, king of the bloated good-card, high-CC decks, is now running 8 or more 1/2 CC cards. BBD might be running 4 blood barons, but he's also running 6 2cc removal spells and 3 thoughtseizes to compensate for the high curve. His board also only contains one card over 3 mana.
MBD is running 12+ 1/2cc. MUD is running 19+. MBD, in particular, is interesting since it plays out similarly to BR. The deck is bloated at the 3-spot - UC, nightveil, and downfall. 12 3cc cards should be a warning to any deck-builder. MBD has compensated by cutting down on the 4-slots of the deck, running devour flesh to make sure their 2cc removal hits, and making sure that even though they are a midrange deck with access to "good" mana (only 3 tapped lands), they play as many 1-2 cc cards as they can fit into the deck. BR isn't quite as pressured since it has access to AotG, but there still are many good reasons to run as many good 1/2 CC cards as you can fit.
I've personally found that I win much more often with a lower-curve version of BR than with a higher one. Looking around the meta, it seems that things are speeding up, and there's a concerted effort to limit the number of cards at each spot in the curve, and to make sure a player's overall curve is low enough.
Reducing the curve of your removal is helpful against MUD, pack rats in MBD, MRD and aggro decks. Decks are "cutting the fat" so to speak. If anyone wants to improve their list, I'd recommend that they take a good hard look at their curve. 2 6cc slots (effectively Rakdos's Return), 4 5cc slots, and 4-5 4cc slots is arguably as high as you want to go. Remember, BR isn't playing as many inherently powerful cards as the control decks in the meta. You can't rely on a top-deck'd rev to win you the game - your goal is to set up a window in which you can win. Any card over 4 mana should be looked at long and hard before warranting its inclusion. Also, having 15-20 3cc slots in a deck is a giant red flag. Each of those cards needs to be particularly powerful to justify wrecking your curve.
Concerning mana, if we're going to far/away with 4 U sources, fine - the card is still useful with only B. Yet, there's a very good reason decks don't run colored cards with 4 sources. MBD with a W splash still runs 8+ W sources for it's blood barons. We should not be running cards that require G/W/U without a different mana base. Since temples are useful for the scry, a W or U splash may very well be beneficial to the deck. But again....let's splash properly. If we're going to be running cards that *require* a color of mana to cast, run the full 8 sources.
Concerning running whip of erebos, I think it's helpful to look at the number MBD players are running. In SCG Las Vegas, Rivera completely cut MB whips and runs a singleton Erebos. In fact, if you look at Rivera's and Turtenwald's lists, Whip of Erebos is missing from both their 75s. In fact, it's gone from most of the recent top 8 finishes. MBD seems like the perfect home for the card. Past what it provides BR, it builds devotion for merchants. In addition, there is a good deal of synergy between whip merchant. Play a merchant and drain for 8. If it manages to die (perhaps to MBD's own removal), drain for another 8? Sounds pretty good.
Yet, if the card is so powerful, why was it cut from 2 to 1....and eventually all together from MBD? One might respond "well, MBD has merchants to gain life, and so the life-loss from whip is less important to them". They'd be right - merchant certainly does gain life, but they'd be down the wrong track; the reason to cut whip has little to do with life gain. It turns out that while the whip builds devotion and has powerful interactions with merchant, it doesn't impact the board state powerfully enough for a 4-drop. Desecration demon combines poorly with the whip; if you're able to play 2 4-drops that an aggro opponent can't interact, and they don't have creatures to sacrifice, you should win the game. Lifeloss is something that adds up in BR (and life management is one of the trickier aspects of the deck), but if you're routinely connecting with demons and dragons, you're probably winning the game. Having a whip and a demon out, and having your demon get chained to the rocks or downfall'd, is painful. In almost all circumstances (burn heavy decks being an exception) I'll take the second demon over a whip.
Whip of Erebos is a 4-drop that provides no benefit on it's own. It helps your demons and dragons race and brings back your rats, but it allows your opponent to ignore the whip and simply remove your threats. There's a good reason why the card's signature deck has cut it. It doesn't matter if it gains you life; it typically only gains you life when you're already winning. It's win-more in MBD. It's even more win-more in BR.
So what else has changed in the last month or so? I've always maintained that stormbreath is a card I dislike running in the deck. I've tried hard to make Underworld Cerberus, Master of Cruelties and Chandra work (for the record, a singleton Chandra seems quite effective). Yet, I'm finally back to running 2 Rakdos's Return, 2 Stormbreath Dragons, 4 demons and 1 Chandra (cutting the Chandra may be correct). Why? The rise of UW control. The dragon still dies to wrath, elspeth and flare, but I guess you can't have everything. I still don't think we want to jam 4 of them (even in games 2 and 3) since UW is very much a draw-go shell. Still, a dragon following up a wrath is a solid play.
I also agree that slaughter games is amazing against UW. I've been running 1-2 on and off in my board the last few months. Naming Sphinx's Revelation absolutely cripples the Huey-style UW control shell. Seeing more than one isn't a problem either; they rely on dissolve, sphere and verdict heavily. You can also simply strip them of win-cons since you have perfect deck information.
Against UWx, slaughter games becomes much worse. Naming revelation still hurts these decks, but both American and Esper have a lot more ways to kill you. It's still good, just not as back-breaking as against UW control. Against American, it may be correct to name Assemble the Legion with the first slaughter games. I've named rev with slaughter games, revealed an assemble in their hand which will come down next turn, and immediately conceded. If you name assemble first, they'll often get off a decent sized rev first...at which point the damage is mostly done.
Whether to run 1, 2, 3 or 4 in your SB is largely a meta-call. 1-2 seems OK to good against nearly all control. If you expect UW to be particularly popular, run 3. If you expect to see a ton of UW elixir variant, you probably want 4.
This is still fundamentally more a control deck and in control vs. control, it's all about card advantage. Sire's downside is a very real problem, and you only really need to clean their hand out once to cripple them enough to win.
A UWx siding into more threats plays right into our game plan. Their deck really isn't set up to fight during that phase of the game, and it's where our power really spikes.
You say that the lifegain from merchant isn't really the point, but that's completely wrong. That lifegain is *how* they can get away with dropping whip. We don't have that (I guess we could play merchants too.. but that really turns this even more into an MBD variant than it has already ended up being). I'm very frequently "stabilizing" at 4 or less life against either flavor of boros aggro and hoping they brick long enough for me to somehow steal the game. Yes, demon isn't great with whip, but we have 11 other threats to get important lifegain value with. Without that lifegain, we can't actually turn the corner and fully stabilize and are under constant threat of suddenly getting burnt out. Whip is definitely *not* win-more.
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Illness in the ranks please... Shut down elspeth & Asemble
Most UW doesnt bring aetherling anymore, drop down Ilness, Slaughter their sphere, that's it. they can revelation and perhaps elixir whatever they want.
Slaughtering sphere helps at our Pack Rat plan as well.
Anger of the Gods also seems like the best answer to the Xathrid Necromancer deck and a good answer to the Boros White Weenie. It seems okay vs. Mono Blue Devotion as a single Judge's Familiar can push it back to turn 4 and it only really hits about half their creatures.
My concern is we're not good against bigger control decks game 1. We have to be smart and be aware of the clock and if we spend 30 minutes grinding out a loss in game 1 the match is going to be hard to win.
My other concern is against big midrange decks with creatures with 5 or more toughness. I'm not seeing these decks very much right now but with Anger of the Gods and Mizzium Mortars as sweepers there are going to be matchups where we don't have effective sweepers. It's kind of similar to mono-blue where our Anger will take out some of their creatures (mana dorks) but not the ramp targets. Again this is just a concern, certainly not a reason to not play this deck.
I think this deck is also poor game 1 to the random FNM decks that people bring to the table like Turbo Fog and Maze's End. Sure in the sideboard access to Slaughter Games can sometimes derail their deck, but sometimes Slaughter Games is only as good as how familiar you are with the deck.
All in all I think this deck is pretty good in an environment where you have a good understanding of what was going to be played. If I had 3 byes at a grand prize I might deck this up because I think it has decent matchups against the tier one decks and my opponents probably haven't had as much experience playing against Rakdos Control. But for FNM you'll get paired against Sphere of Safety/Heliod deck game 1 and just trapped in the 0-1 bracket, where you face Slivers ft. Door of Destinies and you're pretty much dependent on drawing your Anger of the Gods or you'll face an army of Slivers that laughs at your pack rat tokens. (No joke I played an opponent that had kept a hand of 3 Door of Destinies, 3 lands and the +1/+1 Sliver. I thoughtseize one door and she eventually drew the fourth and proceeded to go turn 4, 5, 6 with a Door of Destinies, into the sliver that was now a 5/5. I Devour Fleshed his sliver and the next turn she played Manaweft and Galerider which were now 10/10 and attacked with and 11/11 Mutavault. Generally UWx control would have alot more outs. Detention Sphere for the Doors, Supreme Verdict for the creatures, Celestial Flare or Doom Blade for Mutavault etc. Again not a reason to not play Rakdos Control but it is something to be aware of.