sylvan caryatid does a fine job of replacing farseek, as well as providing a blocker.
t2 sylvan caryatid into xenagos allows you to overload mortars on t4 even with missing a land drop. xenagos also allows broken things with stuff like polukranos.
when all the tricks are thrown out the window, jund does what it does best, which is produce wave after wave of must-answer threats. Which is exactly what cards like desecration demon, underworld cerberus, and polukranos are.
reaper of the wild is a fantastic creature. It gives itself hexproof and generally just lets you scry all day and filter through land pockets/dead cards while killing opponents creatures (or digging for answers).
scavenging ooze is kind of a nonbo with underworld cerberus at first glance, but when you actually play with it, you realize that the ooze can clear your opponent's gy of all of their creatures before you play the cerberus. This way if the opponent does manage to kill you near-unblockable 6/6, it's pretty much a 1-sided return.
so far in testing, magma jet has been pretty amazing, letting you kill a creature at instant speed and set up your next 2 draws is pretty good. It plays defense and helps you hit your land drops, which is why it's a 4-of.
This current configuration is on the assumption that the primary competitive meta will be primarily red-based aggro.
Other cards that may see play depending on the metagame: stormbreath dragon: pro-white is relevant. As is it's monstrous effect, which isn't that hard to hit between xenagos, caryatids, and keyrunes. This will likely see more play depending on the prevalence of UWx strategies.
chandra, pyromaster: good card is good. might make a decent SB card against control strategies just for it's 0 effect, which happens to work fantastically with scry.
thoughtseize: probably should be played over duress in the sb or even MD. In my testing against aggressive red decks though, the life loss hasn't been worth it most of the time. Still, this could be a fine answer to burning earth that's available to the MD. I fully expect burning earth to be a player in theros standard.
mutavault: I don't think this card is really needed, or even wanted. Many of the spells have pretty strict mana requirements, and I think mutavault would hurt your ability to play spells more than it would actually help in providing an extra body. The scry in the deck prevents flooding well enough that I don't think we need any value out of the lands.
Thanks for the thread Joe, glad to see your take on standard and the rotation.
I'll definitely be monitoring this, and I'm sure you're considering this deck in context with straight G/R aggro/midrange.
I have a few generic questions rather than wanting to nitpick at your individual card selection, but it's mostly boiling down to this;
#1 - What have your toughest matchups been? I love how you're saying this deck is first and foremost expecting Red based aggro, and I feel that's a correct assumption to start building with. I don't necessarily think we need to add black and make a G/R midrange / G/B rock hybrid, yet, personally. Do you feel going bigger works against aggro? Or that the removal is really worth dipping into black? Ultimately if going bigger than faster aggro decks is a solid plan, I'd probably look to stay G/R, but adding black removal gives you more game against other midrange G/x decks. Could you start providing some rough statistics as to what your matchups have been/what you're gauntlet testing/cockatrice testing against? I feel any of those could be extremely helpful for anyone wanting to play this help you.
#2 - Xenagos. Alright, this one is nitpicking, but I can't help but feel he wants to be in a deck with more "cheap" creatures to be at his theoretical best. I can envision a lot of early game plays with some early removal, but then playing Xenagos into a mostly empty board on our end. Not that that's a terrible thing, but then, what do we want to do with the extra mana? Perhaps I'm totally wrong and he's been great for you in testing so far, this is just my initial look at your list. I can imagine his extra mana being great with Scooze, good with Rakdos's Return post board, and Polukranos, I just can't help but feel he's at his "theoretical best" in a "monstrous G/R" deck.
#3 - How's the removal been? The removal in a new format really is it's own huge discussion, so we need to start somewhere, and you're putting in actual work with actual games and seeing what actual threats that need answering. I'd be initially concerned about playing Jund against some of the new God cards. This deck doesn't look quite as fast as say, a more focused/pure G/R, and none of the removal can favorably interact with the indestructible Gods should the opponent be able to set them up. I'm thinking of mainly Thassa, God of the Sea blue based control here in contex. Thoughtseize can certainly deal with them, and so can Slaughter Games / Rakdos's Return - I'm just the type of player who would prefer to have more versatile answers or a more focused plan to not care about these kinds of harder to interact with things. Of course, these things may not even be a problem for you in your testing.
Again really like what you're doing here, and I'd be happy to help you playtest myself in any way I can. I'll proxy your list and start from there tonight probably. Which is mainly why I was initially asking what you've tested against, getting a relevant gauntlet started is the most important thing right now.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I'm on board with this. Some questions and comments for you though.
This current configuration is on the assumption that the primary competitive meta will be primarily red-based aggro.
What's your plan vs. Purphorous? Thoughtseize is a preemptive answer. I suppose you could close out the game before he becomes a serious issue.
I like one maindeck golgari charm at the start of the season. It hits loyalist, firefist striker, the new pair of one mana 2/1's, young pyromancer, etc while having the benefit of not being dead against any control decks you might face.
Your list seems pretty good, lot's of synergy going on. I'm on the fence about Polukranos though. He's a fine body, but monstrosity just seems too little too late. I'll likely have already dealt with any smaller guys when he comes down, and shocking an opposing x/3+ for 5 mana seems bad.
I had a similar idea that revolved around graveyard synergies, though yours seems more balanced and certainly more poised to beat aggro decks.
thanks for all the replies. TBH thoughtseize may be the best answer jund has to most of the gods, since they're indestructible and all. Still, it's not hard to race with this deck given that you have multiple ways to pump out 6/6s fast. I really like thoughtseize, but I'm not that keen on the massive life loss you take between it and shock lands when you don't have tusk and huntmaster to gain life back. I could see it in the SB, but i still wouldn't bring it in against mono red.
What have your toughest matchups been?
so far my toughest matchup has been naya midrange and UW control. Naya's biggest threat comes from domri and a monstrous fleecemane lion. They also have chained to the rocks, which can deal with any of your threats for one mana. The good news is that mizzium mortars absolutely destroys that deck and overloading one is often just as good as a one-sided wipe.
UWx control has essence scatter, supreme verdict, and elspeth, but the counters are what really hurt the most. Rakdos's return, underworld cerberus, underworld connections, and even golgari charm are really good here. UW will get much better later on, but for now it's very hard to properly build a control deck in a very unkown metagame. As it stands I have a plan for this deck, but I've only played 2 matches against it and both decks were very different.
Porphoros can be a decent threat from red, but it's really the only one you're worried about and you have enough removal that he often won't be a creature. Burning earth is much more of a threat, but I run many more basics than last season's jund midrange and the chance is there that they won't even draw it. I don't have a solid W/L count against mono red aggro, but it's very positive. I want to say I've only lost 1 match out of around 6 or so against mono red of all shapes and sizes.
Xenagos. Alright, this one is nitpicking, but I can't help but feel he wants to be in a deck with more "cheap" creatures to be at his theoretical best.
xenagos has been pretty amazing. The best way to play him is on T3 off a caryatid, make a token, then next turn +1 to have access to 6 mana for an overloaded mortars, 4 drop + removal, rakdos's return, etc. He's mainly there to just pump out 2/2 hasty bears, but the ramp he provides can really allow you to dominate a board either with your bigger spells or by casting 2-3 spells in a turn.
How's the removal been?
Removal is hit and miss. Lots of people playing different things. Mortars is absolutely amazing and will probably end up as a 4-of though. I may include dreadbore as well since it's realistically a catch-all removal spell that hit's walkers. I haven't gotten to play much with hero's downfall yet, but I imagine it would take putrefy's spot.
ultimate price/doom blade is the hardest thing to get right. against everything but the mirror or Bx variants I want doom blade, but otherwise I want ultimate price. Ideally I just want to play a bunch of putrefy, but there is just such a huge difference between 2-3 mana removal. It might be right to drop a few magma jet for more options, but magma jet just does SO much work in setting up the early game, especially if you don't have T2 caryatid.
I'm on the fence about Polukranos though. He's a fine body, but monstrosity just seems too little too late. I'll likely have already dealt with any smaller guys when he comes down, and shocking an opposing x/3+ for 5 mana seems bad.
polukranos is a slow creature, but one that can decimate your opponent's board when played late, especially with an early caryatid and xenagos on the board. he's basically bonfire on a stick... a very big stick. Granted polukranos loses a lot of value against opposing midrange decks with big creatures, but it's just amazing against decks like WW or mono red that play a lot of x/2 or x/1 creatures.
On a different line, I could easily see dropping polukranos for MD primeval bounty since it provides lifegain and tons of value. Of course at that point I think I would want 4x xenagos, since I'll have so many options at the 6 mana slot.
OPs list looks amazingly solid, probably the best post rotation list I've yet seen. One minor amendment: I would find room for 2-3 underworld connections . It's just too good to pass up. I think you can sacrifice a tiny bit of threat density for this insane card draw. Perhaps:
OPs list looks amazingly solid, probably the best post rotation list I've yet seen. One minor amendment: I would find room for 2-3 underworld connections . It's just too good to pass up. I think you can sacrifice a tiny bit of threat density for this insane card draw. Perhaps:
-2 Worldeater
+2 Underworld connections
underworld connections is in the board. I'm expecting most decks to be very aggressive right away with control kind of floundering in a wide open meta. So the MD is built to battle fast, aggressive strategies while the board takes up the slack against decks going for the longer game.
though I do understand the weakness of the world eater against other midrange strategies. The deck also needs more life gain I think. I was thinking possibly -2 world eater for +2 primeval bounty
i think it's good for us against fast aggro ... but i don't believe that there will be so many swarm deck in theros meta.
On the negative side, this card destroy our ramp strategy: Sylvan Caryatid. If we want to go big and fast, we can't play this card.
This is true. We can bring Anger of the Gods in out of the board and swap Caryatid out so we're not shooting ourselves in the foot.
I've been working on several iterations of a Jund list that honestly looks like a mashup between Standard and Modern Jund. I'll throw up a list once I get something I'm actually remotely happy with.
I have to question what you are taking out of RDW's hand that wouldn't be worth 2 life. Hopefully it is something that your removal would have trouble with, or that would have gotten in 3+ damage before being dealt with. I wouldn't run Duress against aggro, but hitting creatures is a different story. The new guy that ETB triggers damage per Devotion, Purphoros, Burning Earth; all their game-stealing 4-drops are answered by the same card.
I agree that the lack of life gain is a serious problem though.
trying out a number of things right now. hammer of purphoros is excellent against control and can easily win the game on it's own.
bow of nylea and whip of erebos really help to gain lots of life and tons of advantage. bow is great at killing chandra's phoenix over and over or just simply gaining 3 life a turn. Whip lets you re-use your creatures and giving all your gigantic guys lifelink is absolutely absurd.
one thing I've really noticed in testing yesterday is that the deck can be pretty weak to opposing enchantments and gods. I'm starting to see a lot more midrange strategies so stuff like rakdos's return and thoughtseize gain a lot of value.
at this point I'm just shifting things around to see what the most powerful effects I can play are. this deck could easily look completely different in a few days.
one thing I've really noticed in testing yesterday is that the deck can be pretty weak to opposing enchantments and gods. I'm starting to see a lot more midrange strategies so stuff like rakdos's return and thoughtseize gain a lot of value.
I've been losing games to resolved Primeval Bounty quite a bit. Polis Crusher was a solid answer. 7/7 trample trygon predator will pretty much always get there if they don't have the removal.
Also, I know you said Reaper was testing well but it's been quite the opposite for me. He's incredibly durdly and almost never gets through. He also ties up your mana if you're looking to give it deathtouch. I almost want to cut him completely.
I've been losing games to resolved Primeval Bounty quite a bit. Polis Crusher was a solid answer. 7/7 trample trygon predator will pretty much always get there if they don't have the removal.
Also, I know you said Reaper was testing well but it's been quite the opposite for me. He's incredibly durdly and almost never gets through. He also ties up your mana if you're looking to give it deathtouch. I almost want to cut him completely.
he's a solid 4/5 with hexproof that scrys for me. I don't think I've had to give him deathtouch once.
still, I'm always open to suggestions if you feel you have a solid replacement for him.
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I'm interested in trying Satyr Hedonist as a nut-draw enabler of sorts. The list is sort of just jamming together threats and spells to see which work and which don't.
Well, I tried the deck against a Theros U/W control and getting countered on everything I do is kind of annoying. I'm not sure what you can do about that but the problem seems to be that the deck doesn't have enough stuff in the early turns so everything from turn 4+ just gets countered or removed without doing anything. :/
As it stands right now, Savage Summoning appears to be the best option for absolutely forcing your threat through.
I don't want to be that guy but it would be nice if I could copy the deck lists into Cockatrice for testing without having to change all the capital letters.
Well, I tried the deck against a Theros U/W control and getting countered on everything I do is kind of annoying. I'm not sure what you can do about that but the problem seems to be that the deck doesn't have enough stuff in the early turns so everything from turn 4+ just gets countered or removed without doing anything. :/
yea heavy permission control running a lot of counters can be pretty daunting. Fortunately, just about everything you have is a threat besides most of your removal. The good news is that most of your removal besides mizzium mortars and putrefy is pretty exceptional against control. Decay hits detention sphere and dreadbore can kill elspeth and jace.
The best thing I can say is just keep jamming threats until something sticks and try to work around counter spells. Stuff like thoughtseize, rakdos's return, and the god weapons can go a long way towards gaining an advantage.
after board there are a lot more options. Going up to 4 thoughseizes, gaining hammer of purphoros, vraska, underworld connections, and golgari charm are all pretty huge.
that list seems very odd to me. I've been testing against more of what todd anderson posted in his latest premium article, which is much more of a permission build:
As it stands right now, Savage Summoning appears to be the best option for absolutely forcing your threat through.
I'm not going to say that this is necessarily a bad idea, but even though savage summoning forces your threats through their counters, it doubles the value of all of their dspheres, azorius charms, wrath effects, etc.
I might also give a shot to slaughter games again. leading an early thoughtseize into a turn 3-4 slaughter games is absolutely back-breaking for these UWx control decks.
I think what I'll do is drop a putrefy from the MD for a hero's downfall. This will allow me to shift some things around with the board and make room for slaughter games. I will probably also drop the gruul guildgate for a rakdos guildgate. Hopefully the hero's downfall isn't too awkward to cast. Either way, I wanted another mono-colored removal spell anyway, simply because soldier of the pantheon is kind of a PITA to deal with.
I'm interested in trying Satyr Hedonist as a nut-draw enabler of sorts. The list is sort of just jamming together threats and spells to see which work and which don't.
I'm not a fan of the hedonist personally. he's very "all in" and unless you've got the nut draw then it's just a very dead card. I would be more inclined to try this strategy if I could think of a card to try and power out by turn 4-5 that would just end the game against most decks, but as it stands I can't think of any.
Reaper of the Wild should probably be 4x before any Desecration Demon. He actually blocks- and well, and if he sticks for one turn or is played late he demands a wrath- that alone sounds better than the extra power and then there is the scry and deathtouch abilities on top of that. And you lose 1 toughness but don't die to ultimate price- neither will come up too often.
Reaper is also slightly easier to cast in most decks that are already BG.
Why did you drop Xenagos Joe, was he just not working out in testing?
he wasn't bad by any means, i just felt like I wasn't taking full advantage of him. Most of the time I just made a bunch of hasty tokens, often not attacking with them, until he died. I ended up dropping him to test some of the god artifacts which have done incredibly well so I haven't looked back.
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he wasn't bad by any means, i just felt like I wasn't taking full advantage of him. Most of the time I just made a bunch of hasty tokens, often not attacking with them, until he died. I ended up dropping him to test some of the god artifacts which have done incredibly well so I haven't looked back.
I'm sad and glad to hear that at the same time. Not to do an I told you so or anything, I've been screwing around with Xenagos, myself, and am about to say I'm done with him completely. You gave me some hope earlier in the thread when you mentioned the best part of Xenagos was setting up bigger plays/turns/chaining 2 big drops if you untap with him or whatever, sounded very reasonable. But in the long run, this is a Jund deck, not a deck with a high creature density to maximize all of his abilities' potential as a planeswalker. He's a tricky son of a ***** to build around.
Anyway, like how it's shaping up Joe, hows the mana treating you? Reading more of Todd Anderson/Brad Nelson has got me scared to even think about 3 color decks for right now. Maybe they're just trying to say 3 color will suck and then play 3 colors themselves, kinda like how Anderson said don't play control at the start of last year's rotation and then strikes gold with his "breakout" American Control! Tamiyo ultimate + Pillar of Flame you to death, the only red card in my deck!
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Good to see that this thread is easy to find, I have been looking at the card pool of creatures that we have available to us, and this is the list that I've come up with:
The deck build give a good first matchup vs aggro, and then sideboards into massive anti-control tools, while also having some extra options for the aggro and midrange matchups.
I'm sad and glad to hear that at the same time. Not to do an I told you so or anything, I've been screwing around with Xenagos, myself, and am about to say I'm done with him completely. You gave me some hope earlier in the thread when you mentioned the best part of Xenagos was setting up bigger plays/turns/chaining 2 big drops if you untap with him or whatever, sounded very reasonable. But in the long run, this is a Jund deck, not a deck with a high creature density to maximize all of his abilities' potential as a planeswalker. He's a tricky son of a ***** to build around.
Anyway, like how it's shaping up Joe, hows the mana treating you? Reading more of Todd Anderson/Brad Nelson has got me scared to even think about 3 color decks for right now. Maybe they're just trying to say 3 color will suck and then play 3 colors themselves, kinda like how Anderson said don't play control at the start of last year's rotation and then strikes gold with his "breakout" American Control! Tamiyo ultimate + Pillar of Flame you to death, the only red card in my deck!
they're probably right to some extent. mono red will likely be the deck to beat in the first week or two of the new standard season. That means that burning earth will be everywhere.
I would NOT play this deck at the start of the season. I've been doing a ton of testing and tweaking simply to see what's powerful and what's not, but at least the first week or two, I'm probably going to be playing either naya aggro or GW beats.
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I didnt mind having more ETBT as long as my manba base inst as shaky. I still have 16/24 that can enter Untapped. Im not sure if this is the best choice, but since i cant quite test yet, only time will tell.
Strombreath Dragon ends games. Can be dropped on turn 4, hitting for 4, and can go for a lot more damage, asap. There seems to be talk of the B/W deck, and this can kill a Blood Baron need be. Very good way to end the game out of no where, especially if the opponent gets low.
The Three chadras, and the two connections are here to garner advantage. I think, depending on how the whip is during testing, they may need to change numbers.
we are an attrition deck. we need a may to gain advantage. with no garruk, chandra lets us gain some form of advantage, if she sticks around a couple turns.
the whip is to give us super late game reach. Oh we went to turn 12, i top the whip, and recur my bloody dragon, to hit you for 4, with lifegain.
Im not sure how the removal should be split yet, and only again testing will help.
I dont like reaper of the wild. i think the gorgon is bad, and we need a better 4 drop. maybe thats just me so far.
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4 overgrown tomb
4 blood crypt
4 temple of abandon
4 swamp
3 forest
2 mountain
4 sylvan caryatid
3 scavenging ooze
4 desecration demon
4 reaper of the wild
2 underworld cerberus
2 polukranos, world eater
3 mizzium mortars
1 doom blade
1 ultimate price
1 putrefy
4 magma jet
2 rakdos keyrune
3 xenagos, the reveler
2 abrupt decay
2 underworld connections
2 rakdos's return
2 golgari charm
1 dreadbore
1 ultimate price
3 thoughtseize
1 bow of nylea
1 primeval bounty
t2 sylvan caryatid into xenagos allows you to overload mortars on t4 even with missing a land drop. xenagos also allows broken things with stuff like polukranos.
when all the tricks are thrown out the window, jund does what it does best, which is produce wave after wave of must-answer threats. Which is exactly what cards like desecration demon, underworld cerberus, and polukranos are.
reaper of the wild is a fantastic creature. It gives itself hexproof and generally just lets you scry all day and filter through land pockets/dead cards while killing opponents creatures (or digging for answers).
scavenging ooze is kind of a nonbo with underworld cerberus at first glance, but when you actually play with it, you realize that the ooze can clear your opponent's gy of all of their creatures before you play the cerberus. This way if the opponent does manage to kill you near-unblockable 6/6, it's pretty much a 1-sided return.
so far in testing, magma jet has been pretty amazing, letting you kill a creature at instant speed and set up your next 2 draws is pretty good. It plays defense and helps you hit your land drops, which is why it's a 4-of.
This current configuration is on the assumption that the primary competitive meta will be primarily red-based aggro.
Other cards that may see play depending on the metagame:
stormbreath dragon: pro-white is relevant. As is it's monstrous effect, which isn't that hard to hit between xenagos, caryatids, and keyrunes. This will likely see more play depending on the prevalence of UWx strategies.
chandra, pyromaster: good card is good. might make a decent SB card against control strategies just for it's 0 effect, which happens to work fantastically with scry.
thoughtseize: probably should be played over duress in the sb or even MD. In my testing against aggressive red decks though, the life loss hasn't been worth it most of the time. Still, this could be a fine answer to burning earth that's available to the MD. I fully expect burning earth to be a player in theros standard.
mutavault: I don't think this card is really needed, or even wanted. Many of the spells have pretty strict mana requirements, and I think mutavault would hurt your ability to play spells more than it would actually help in providing an extra body. The scry in the deck prevents flooding well enough that I don't think we need any value out of the lands.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Thanks,
-rujasu
I'll definitely be monitoring this, and I'm sure you're considering this deck in context with straight G/R aggro/midrange.
I have a few generic questions rather than wanting to nitpick at your individual card selection, but it's mostly boiling down to this;
#1 - What have your toughest matchups been? I love how you're saying this deck is first and foremost expecting Red based aggro, and I feel that's a correct assumption to start building with. I don't necessarily think we need to add black and make a G/R midrange / G/B rock hybrid, yet, personally. Do you feel going bigger works against aggro? Or that the removal is really worth dipping into black? Ultimately if going bigger than faster aggro decks is a solid plan, I'd probably look to stay G/R, but adding black removal gives you more game against other midrange G/x decks. Could you start providing some rough statistics as to what your matchups have been/what you're gauntlet testing/cockatrice testing against? I feel any of those could be extremely helpful for anyone wanting to play this help you.
#2 - Xenagos. Alright, this one is nitpicking, but I can't help but feel he wants to be in a deck with more "cheap" creatures to be at his theoretical best. I can envision a lot of early game plays with some early removal, but then playing Xenagos into a mostly empty board on our end. Not that that's a terrible thing, but then, what do we want to do with the extra mana? Perhaps I'm totally wrong and he's been great for you in testing so far, this is just my initial look at your list. I can imagine his extra mana being great with Scooze, good with Rakdos's Return post board, and Polukranos, I just can't help but feel he's at his "theoretical best" in a "monstrous G/R" deck.
#3 - How's the removal been? The removal in a new format really is it's own huge discussion, so we need to start somewhere, and you're putting in actual work with actual games and seeing what actual threats that need answering. I'd be initially concerned about playing Jund against some of the new God cards. This deck doesn't look quite as fast as say, a more focused/pure G/R, and none of the removal can favorably interact with the indestructible Gods should the opponent be able to set them up. I'm thinking of mainly Thassa, God of the Sea blue based control here in contex. Thoughtseize can certainly deal with them, and so can Slaughter Games / Rakdos's Return - I'm just the type of player who would prefer to have more versatile answers or a more focused plan to not care about these kinds of harder to interact with things. Of course, these things may not even be a problem for you in your testing.
Again really like what you're doing here, and I'd be happy to help you playtest myself in any way I can. I'll proxy your list and start from there tonight probably. Which is mainly why I was initially asking what you've tested against, getting a relevant gauntlet started is the most important thing right now.
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South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
What's your plan vs. Purphorous? Thoughtseize is a preemptive answer. I suppose you could close out the game before he becomes a serious issue.
I like one maindeck golgari charm at the start of the season. It hits loyalist, firefist striker, the new pair of one mana 2/1's, young pyromancer, etc while having the benefit of not being dead against any control decks you might face.
Your list seems pretty good, lot's of synergy going on. I'm on the fence about Polukranos though. He's a fine body, but monstrosity just seems too little too late. I'll likely have already dealt with any smaller guys when he comes down, and shocking an opposing x/3+ for 5 mana seems bad.
I had a similar idea that revolved around graveyard synergies, though yours seems more balanced and certainly more poised to beat aggro decks.
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Underworld Cerebus
3 Reaper of the Wild
2 Shadowborn Demon
2 Tymaret, the Murder King
3 Grisly Salvage
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Putrefy
2 Dreadbore
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Mountain
so far my toughest matchup has been naya midrange and UW control. Naya's biggest threat comes from domri and a monstrous fleecemane lion. They also have chained to the rocks, which can deal with any of your threats for one mana. The good news is that mizzium mortars absolutely destroys that deck and overloading one is often just as good as a one-sided wipe.
UWx control has essence scatter, supreme verdict, and elspeth, but the counters are what really hurt the most. Rakdos's return, underworld cerberus, underworld connections, and even golgari charm are really good here. UW will get much better later on, but for now it's very hard to properly build a control deck in a very unkown metagame. As it stands I have a plan for this deck, but I've only played 2 matches against it and both decks were very different.
Porphoros can be a decent threat from red, but it's really the only one you're worried about and you have enough removal that he often won't be a creature. Burning earth is much more of a threat, but I run many more basics than last season's jund midrange and the chance is there that they won't even draw it. I don't have a solid W/L count against mono red aggro, but it's very positive. I want to say I've only lost 1 match out of around 6 or so against mono red of all shapes and sizes.
xenagos has been pretty amazing. The best way to play him is on T3 off a caryatid, make a token, then next turn +1 to have access to 6 mana for an overloaded mortars, 4 drop + removal, rakdos's return, etc. He's mainly there to just pump out 2/2 hasty bears, but the ramp he provides can really allow you to dominate a board either with your bigger spells or by casting 2-3 spells in a turn.
Removal is hit and miss. Lots of people playing different things. Mortars is absolutely amazing and will probably end up as a 4-of though. I may include dreadbore as well since it's realistically a catch-all removal spell that hit's walkers. I haven't gotten to play much with hero's downfall yet, but I imagine it would take putrefy's spot.
ultimate price/doom blade is the hardest thing to get right. against everything but the mirror or Bx variants I want doom blade, but otherwise I want ultimate price. Ideally I just want to play a bunch of putrefy, but there is just such a huge difference between 2-3 mana removal. It might be right to drop a few magma jet for more options, but magma jet just does SO much work in setting up the early game, especially if you don't have T2 caryatid.
polukranos is a slow creature, but one that can decimate your opponent's board when played late, especially with an early caryatid and xenagos on the board. he's basically bonfire on a stick... a very big stick. Granted polukranos loses a lot of value against opposing midrange decks with big creatures, but it's just amazing against decks like WW or mono red that play a lot of x/2 or x/1 creatures.
On a different line, I could easily see dropping polukranos for MD primeval bounty since it provides lifegain and tons of value. Of course at that point I think I would want 4x xenagos, since I'll have so many options at the 6 mana slot.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
-2 Worldeater
+2 Underworld connections
underworld connections is in the board. I'm expecting most decks to be very aggressive right away with control kind of floundering in a wide open meta. So the MD is built to battle fast, aggressive strategies while the board takes up the slack against decks going for the longer game.
though I do understand the weakness of the world eater against other midrange strategies. The deck also needs more life gain I think. I was thinking possibly -2 world eater for +2 primeval bounty
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
This is true. We can bring Anger of the Gods in out of the board and swap Caryatid out so we're not shooting ourselves in the foot.
I've been working on several iterations of a Jund list that honestly looks like a mashup between Standard and Modern Jund. I'll throw up a list once I get something I'm actually remotely happy with.
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
I agree that the lack of life gain is a serious problem though.
4 overgrown tomb
4 blood crypt
4 temple of abandon
1 golgari guildgate
1 gruul guildgate
3 swamp
3 forest
1 mountain
4 sylvan caryatid
3 scavenging ooze
4 desecration demon
4 reaper of the wild
3 underworld cerberus
2 mizzium mortars
1 abrupt decay
2 putrefy
2 magma jet
2 rakdos's return
2 thoughtseize
1 rakdos keyrune
2 bow of nylea
1 whip of erebos
2 underworld connections
1 rakdos's return
3 golgari charm
1 dreadbore
2 thoughtseize
1 hammer of purphoros
2 vraska the unseen
2 anger of the gods
1 primeval bounty
trying out a number of things right now. hammer of purphoros is excellent against control and can easily win the game on it's own.
bow of nylea and whip of erebos really help to gain lots of life and tons of advantage. bow is great at killing chandra's phoenix over and over or just simply gaining 3 life a turn. Whip lets you re-use your creatures and giving all your gigantic guys lifelink is absolutely absurd.
one thing I've really noticed in testing yesterday is that the deck can be pretty weak to opposing enchantments and gods. I'm starting to see a lot more midrange strategies so stuff like rakdos's return and thoughtseize gain a lot of value.
at this point I'm just shifting things around to see what the most powerful effects I can play are. this deck could easily look completely different in a few days.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
I've been losing games to resolved Primeval Bounty quite a bit. Polis Crusher was a solid answer. 7/7 trample trygon predator will pretty much always get there if they don't have the removal.
Also, I know you said Reaper was testing well but it's been quite the opposite for me. He's incredibly durdly and almost never gets through. He also ties up your mana if you're looking to give it deathtouch. I almost want to cut him completely.
he's a solid 4/5 with hexproof that scrys for me. I don't think I've had to give him deathtouch once.
still, I'm always open to suggestions if you feel you have a solid replacement for him.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
4 sylvan caryatid
3 satyr hedonist
2 scavenging ooze
2 polukranos, world eater
2 polis crusher
3 underworld cerberus
2 stormbreath dragon
1 sire of insanity
1 dreadbore
1 putrefy
1 magma jet
3 mizzium mortars
1 bow of nylea
2 rakdos keyrune
3 xenagos, the reveler
1 rakdos's return
4 stomping ground
3 blood crypt
4 temple of abandon
2 golgari guildgate
1 rakdos guildgate
4 forest
1 mountain
1 swamp
I'm interested in trying Satyr Hedonist as a nut-draw enabler of sorts. The list is sort of just jamming together threats and spells to see which work and which don't.
As it stands right now, Savage Summoning appears to be the best option for absolutely forcing your threat through.
yea heavy permission control running a lot of counters can be pretty daunting. Fortunately, just about everything you have is a threat besides most of your removal. The good news is that most of your removal besides mizzium mortars and putrefy is pretty exceptional against control. Decay hits detention sphere and dreadbore can kill elspeth and jace.
The best thing I can say is just keep jamming threats until something sticks and try to work around counter spells. Stuff like thoughtseize, rakdos's return, and the god weapons can go a long way towards gaining an advantage.
after board there are a lot more options. Going up to 4 thoughseizes, gaining hammer of purphoros, vraska, underworld connections, and golgari charm are all pretty huge.
that list seems very odd to me. I've been testing against more of what todd anderson posted in his latest premium article, which is much more of a permission build:
7 plains
2 mutavault
4 hallowed fountain
4 azorius guildgate
4 omenspeaker
2 aetherling
2 elspeth, sun's champion
1 jace, memory adept
2 detention sphere
4 supreme verdict
3 sphinx's revelation
1 voyage's end
3 essence scatter
3 dissolve
2 syncopate
4 azorius charm
I might also give a shot to slaughter games again. leading an early thoughtseize into a turn 3-4 slaughter games is absolutely back-breaking for these UWx control decks.
I think what I'll do is drop a putrefy from the MD for a hero's downfall. This will allow me to shift some things around with the board and make room for slaughter games. I will probably also drop the gruul guildgate for a rakdos guildgate. Hopefully the hero's downfall isn't too awkward to cast. Either way, I wanted another mono-colored removal spell anyway, simply because soldier of the pantheon is kind of a PITA to deal with.
I'm not a fan of the hedonist personally. he's very "all in" and unless you've got the nut draw then it's just a very dead card. I would be more inclined to try this strategy if I could think of a card to try and power out by turn 4-5 that would just end the game against most decks, but as it stands I can't think of any.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Reaper is also slightly easier to cast in most decks that are already BG.
he wasn't bad by any means, i just felt like I wasn't taking full advantage of him. Most of the time I just made a bunch of hasty tokens, often not attacking with them, until he died. I ended up dropping him to test some of the god artifacts which have done incredibly well so I haven't looked back.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
I'm sad and glad to hear that at the same time. Not to do an I told you so or anything, I've been screwing around with Xenagos, myself, and am about to say I'm done with him completely. You gave me some hope earlier in the thread when you mentioned the best part of Xenagos was setting up bigger plays/turns/chaining 2 big drops if you untap with him or whatever, sounded very reasonable. But in the long run, this is a Jund deck, not a deck with a high creature density to maximize all of his abilities' potential as a planeswalker. He's a tricky son of a ***** to build around.
Anyway, like how it's shaping up Joe, hows the mana treating you? Reading more of Todd Anderson/Brad Nelson has got me scared to even think about 3 color decks for right now. Maybe they're just trying to say 3 color will suck and then play 3 colors themselves, kinda like how Anderson said don't play control at the start of last year's rotation and then strikes gold with his "breakout" American Control! Tamiyo ultimate + Pillar of Flame you to death, the only red card in my deck!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Desecration Demon
2x Lifebane Zombie
3x Reaper of the Wilds
4x Sylvan Caryatid
Spells (16)
4x Thoughtseize
3x Aprupt Decay
3x Magma Jet
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Fury of the gods
1x Deadbridge Chant
Planeswalkers (3)
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
1x Vraska, the unseen
Lands (25)
2x Swamp
3x Forest
4x Temple of Abaddon
3x Stomping ground
4x Blood Crypt
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Rakdos Guildgate
3x Golgari Guildgate
3x Mistcutter Hydra
2x Slaughter Games
3x Rakdos' Return
2x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2x Putrefy
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Deadbridge Chant
1x Savage Summoning
The deck build give a good first matchup vs aggro, and then sideboards into massive anti-control tools, while also having some extra options for the aggro and midrange matchups.
Epic Sig by: Myself
Mindsplicer of [House Dimir]
they're probably right to some extent. mono red will likely be the deck to beat in the first week or two of the new standard season. That means that burning earth will be everywhere.
I would NOT play this deck at the start of the season. I've been doing a ton of testing and tweaking simply to see what's powerful and what's not, but at least the first week or two, I'm probably going to be playing either naya aggro or GW beats.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Reaper of the Wilds
4x Strombreath Dragon
Spells: 15
4x Thoughtseize
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Magma Jet
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Putrefy
3x Fury of the gods
1x Rakdos's Return
2x Underworld Connections
1x Whip of Erebos
Planeswalkers: 3
3x Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands: 24
4x OverGrown Tomb
4x Blood Crypt
4x Stomping Ground
4x Temple of Abandon
4x Guildgate of Choice
4x Basic Lands
So choices here:
I didnt mind having more ETBT as long as my manba base inst as shaky. I still have 16/24 that can enter Untapped. Im not sure if this is the best choice, but since i cant quite test yet, only time will tell.
Strombreath Dragon ends games. Can be dropped on turn 4, hitting for 4, and can go for a lot more damage, asap. There seems to be talk of the B/W deck, and this can kill a Blood Baron need be. Very good way to end the game out of no where, especially if the opponent gets low.
The Three chadras, and the two connections are here to garner advantage. I think, depending on how the whip is during testing, they may need to change numbers.
we are an attrition deck. we need a may to gain advantage. with no garruk, chandra lets us gain some form of advantage, if she sticks around a couple turns.
the whip is to give us super late game reach. Oh we went to turn 12, i top the whip, and recur my bloody dragon, to hit you for 4, with lifegain.
Im not sure how the removal should be split yet, and only again testing will help.
I dont like reaper of the wild. i think the gorgon is bad, and we need a better 4 drop. maybe thats just me so far.