^If you're not running BB, with what did you fill in your Desecration Demons?
4 Drops are actually a really strange spot as it is. Not only are our options pretty awkward, but with a land coming into play tapped, it makes it even more uncomfortable at times.
For the 4 drops, I cut down my emphasis on them to focus a bit more on 1, 2, and 3 mana cards. My 4 drop set ups is something like this
Plate Mail gave me a card that just did not care about the colors of my land at a 4 drop slot, it also fortifies against sweepers, can slip in with a Mutavault and can block when I need it too.
So much less emphasis on the 4 drops and more on making sure I can do something on this turn regardless of colors or a land coming into play tapped.
It will actually, probably just end up as a Rakdos Guildgate. I was using it to gauge how often I needed the fixing, as well as what colors I was primarily looking for when it was landing.
Regarding the four-drop slot, has anyone considered Purphoros, God of the forge? He may be worth it alone just by hasting up Blood Baron and giving him and your team firebreating, which is legit vs aggro and can make assemble the legion deadly after just two activations. It is a shame lingering souls is out. Would have been amazing with Purphoros lol.
Regarding the four-drop slot, has anyone considered Purphoros, God of the forge? He may be worth it alone just by hasting up Blood Baron and giving him and your team firebreating, which is legit vs aggro and can make assemble the legion deadly after just two activations. It is a shame lingering souls is out. Would have been amazing with Purphoros lol.
The red god doesn't give haste, unless you're thinking of running his hammer?
Ah, yes I was thinking the hammer for the haste part. I need to RTFC more lol. But, still. The god seems like he could do some work still. Especially if some R or W token generating spell (gather the townsfolk) or Thatcher revolt perhaps? Besides, if Dega has a hard time with speed as a midrange deck, there is always control with this guy, Elspeth and Merciless Eviction to handle other gods or anything, really.
I did this and lost some Doom Blades, and I am currently trying a safer land package with regards to shock/etbt. It has worked surprisingly well so far :
T1 tapped dual (most often B/W, sometimes B/R)
T2 basic (most often Mountain, sometimes Plains), and then I can pretty reliable cast Thoughtseize, Chained or some 2cmc burn spell.
T3 basic or shock for 3cmc creature, or dual tapped for removal and/or Thoughtseize, depending on board state
Maybe I'm playing it safer than I have to though, but the color fixing seems to work.
The gods are all pretty weak compared to other things we can run, and as I said, the 4 drop slot can be pretty awkward at times. Hammer is outclassed by a lot of other spells too, so I did not want to squeeze something like that in at this point in time.
Elspeth seems good, Eviction I am not sold on right now, I don't currently see of feel the need to have a sweeper.
I did this and lost some Doom Blades, and I am currently trying a safer land package with regards to shock/etbt. It has worked surprisingly well so far :
T1 tapped dual (most often B/W, sometimes B/R)
T2 basic (most often Mountain, sometimes Plains), and then I can pretty reliable cast Thoughtseize, Chained or some 2cmc burn spell.
Maybe I'm playing it safer than I have to, but if you find that you're shocking yourself a lot, give that a whirl.
I would avoid dropping Doom Blade, it and Ultimate Price are really good removal spells to have after rotation from what I am seeing.
Basic lands in this deck stroke. I have been hitting them and my heart sinks a bit. It is the reason I ran Promenade over another basic. The problem with Basics are that when you start flooding all of one or two colors, you just cannot do anything. You run out of options.
I would avoid dropping Doom Blade, it and Ultimate Price are really good removal spells to have after rotation from what I am seeing.
Basic lands in this deck stroke. I have been hitting them and my heart sinks a bit. It is the reason I ran Promenade over another basic. The problem with Basics are that when you start flooding all of one or two colors, you just cannot do anything. You run out of options.
I agree don't drop the Doom Blades, you just side them out for Dark Betrayal when facing any deck with heavy black. I still don't know about ultimate price, a lot of hybrid creatures are going to be showing up for the first few months of standard as everyone tries to "break" the Gods by feeding their devotion cost.
Lands will be a big issue, but Kamahl as the right idea, go heavy into two colors and splash a 3rd.
Would Chromatic Lantern be worth it as a mana fixer over a Keyrune, or is the option of making it a creature better than having access to all 3 colors?
Personally, I do not think the mana is really that hard for us.
Me neither, this deck is going to do just fine. Obzedat is the only card I've had trouble casting all day, and even he gets out on T5 like 3 out of 4 times when I've got him (I'm running 2x). That's not enough, but it's a pretty good sign, considering how risky my abovementioned mana base seems. And either way, Cerbebus or Morningbreath can take his place.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
I have been getting in a lot of games against Control and I must say, Sin Collector + Thoughtseize + Rakdos's Return is brutal for them to deal with.
Aggro and Control matches are seeming pretty favorable right now. I have not had a chance to get in any testing against midrange strategies yet, just because I am unsure what decks I am looking to pit this against in that area.
But Theros seems to have patched some things up exceptionally well right now.
Sin collector and thoughtseize are great for the most part. I run 3 of each.
I am reluctant to put in mutavualt because yeah against control it looks good, but since we run reckoner, perhaps the Shrine to Nyx may be worth a look. It can pump up rakdos returns without tapping a lot of mana and it can ramp?
One thing I am on the fence about is lifebane zombie. IDK if he will be heavily played, but if he is, it would be more of an incentive to run red and black win-cons. I am looking at stormbreath and Purphoros, ideally. Obzedat can still be plucked plus he can be Glare of Heresy target. I think Obzedat is becoming less viable with each day.
It's kind of humiliating for you guys to sit here and pause on how good Thoughtseize is, and what a blowout Stormbreath Dragon are. Nobody has played with, or against the upcoming format.
-No Dragon in standard (nor the upcoming standard) is better than Blood Baron, and I'd certainly question anyone playing it over Obzedat or even Sire of Insanity.
-Thoughtseize is a card that does absolutely nothing when you're winning, and absolutely nothing if you're losing. It's a pro-active save card for a deck that doesn't need it.
Why are people so committed to ruining the core of a good deck, ensuring that it never sees play at top tables? Dega Midrange, Dega Control, and even Dega Aggro could be exceptional decks if you stop crushing them in the deck-building stage.
It's like you're all struggling, and flailing your arms while praying for Flores or some other overrated pro to build your decks for you. COME ON, PEOPLE!
I don't think anyone here has said that any dragon is better than Blood Baron. He is an amazing, even in a format infested by Thragtusk. He crushes a lot of decks or forces them to drop double burn.
I merely say that we may need to plan for Lifebane showing up in greater frequency and seeing a blood baron in hand, it will likely be taken.
I still stand by my opinion that obzedat, however, will be far easier to handle post rotation and that another 5-drop, ideally red or black, be put in his place.
It's kind of humiliating for you guys to sit here and pause on how good Thoughtseize is, and what a blowout Stormbreath Dragon are. Nobody has played with, or against the upcoming format.
-No Dragon in standard (nor the upcoming standard) is better than Blood Baron, and I'd certainly question anyone playing it over Obzedat or even Sire of Insanity.
-Thoughtseize is a card that does absolutely nothing when you're winning, and absolutely nothing if you're losing. It's a pro-active save card for a deck that doesn't need it.
Why are people so committed to ruining the core of a good deck, ensuring that it never sees play at top tables? Dega Midrange, Dega Control, and even Dega Aggro could be exceptional decks if you stop crushing them in the deck-building stage.
It's like you're all struggling, and flailing your arms while praying for Flores or some other overrated pro to build your decks for you. COME ON, PEOPLE!
When did we pause on how good Thoughtseize is?
This deck has been played in standard. Cards like Thundermaw Hellkite and Stormbreath Dragon are incredible tools for combating other midrange decks when you start flooding the ground with walls like Reckoner and Blood Baron. In the current standard iteration, TMH is the best card in the deck by miles. Stormbreath brings that same playability on a few levels for us.
Obzedat is demanding when it comes to colors and a timely drop. He also gets chumped for days against aggro and midrange decks. His ability is much weaker than that of a flying hasting dragon. This is evident even in the control match where they are so busy trying to stop you from doing anything that TMH can just land and take over.
Thoughtseize is a power card when it comes to providing windows of opportunity or racing to midrange fat. It is proactive disruption that allows you to simultaneously continue advancement.
Feel free to chime in with all your glorious experience and amazing decklists...
Where your last statement comes from is well beyond me...
Sin collector and thoughtseize are great for the most part. I run 3 of each.
I am reluctant to put in mutavualt because yeah against control it looks good, but since we run reckoner, perhaps the Shrine to Nyx may be worth a look. It can pump up rakdos returns without tapping a lot of mana and it can ramp?
One thing I am on the fence about is lifebane zombie. IDK if he will be heavily played, but if he is, it would be more of an incentive to run red and black win-cons. I am looking at stormbreath and Purphoros, ideally. Obzedat can still be plucked plus he can be Glare of Heresy target. I think Obzedat is becoming less viable with each day.
These two things are something that are important when thinking about the midrange matches as well though. Decks like BG and WG midrange decks can be really stompy at times and it really comes down to figuring out how to effectively race them.
As for Lifebane Zombie, while he does nab white finishers, I would say the idea is to diversify your threats for the sake of the midrange match rather than just start excluding cards in the MB. Obzedat still has some play room in the main, simply because cards like Glare of Heresy are generally delegated to the SB. You can flex Obzedat back out. He still has mise value.
Underworld Cerberus seems like a beating for midrange decks. Between already trying to put our big beaters one at a time, and our removal... opening just seem inevitable here. T5 Cerberus into T6 Aurelia might as well be game. It is 18 damage alone if they do not have 3 blockers for the hound. I am at 1 in the MB and a 2nd in the SB for the sake of the midrange match.
The problem with moving away from white win conditions is really contingent on the mana and the need for early reckoners. This leaves the mana sometimes skewed and while our cards are not too terribly greedy with mana most of the time, sometimes you do just get draws where you flood of 2 colors and see little to no 3rd in a timely manner. Sticking with some white finishers helps alleviate this a bit.
Well, that is a nice idea with the ceberus and Aurelia. I am going to be trying it out today with a couple of friends then.
Regarding Obzedat though... I know glare is a SB card but there is still putrefy, Orzhov charm and Far//Away. Not to mention that I totally forgot that he does get chumped on the ground for days. I am leaning more towards the ceberus and maybe assemble the legion with purphoros, even though it can be a stretch sometimes. I still think SB may be a better option.
-No Dragon in standard (nor the upcoming standard) is better than Blood Baron, and I'd certainly question anyone playing it over Obzedat or even Sire of Insanity.
Dragon is better than Baron. Dragon is A LOT better than baron. Against Esper dragon dodges same removal except doom blade, which they don't play much, but also dodges sacrifice multicolored, which otherwise kills everything relevant in Dega.
Lategame he threatens to outright kill them in two turns. Baron just waits there for a turn, giving them more time to draw removal or is blanked by aetherling.
And Esper and Monored will be the two most important matchups.
Baron has only one very good matchup - GW aggro, which is winnable enough without him to not play many barons maindeck.
-Thoughtseize is a card that does absolutely nothing when you're winning, and absolutely nothing if you're losing. It's a pro-active save card for a deck that doesn't need it.
This deck plays 12+ removal, that is dead in some matchups. By using removal slots for seizes you improve overall matchups, because it is relevant against everything.
Also it's maindeckable way to beat Burning earth and other random important stuff that you can't deal with via removal, like gods or hexproof stuff.
Idk about the GW match being winnable without Blood Baron... Archangel of Thune turns a lot of their stuff into death machines. Baron at least walls a lot of stuff, which actually puts you in a position to race green fatties or even remove them and swing past everything white for a big strike. He might not win the match himself, but he does a lot of work that removal cannot always keep up with.
You guys are forever doomed to posting in Developing Competitive thanks to your own moronic bs. Enjoy it.
Ok Mr. Icomebashaforumwithmyfirstpostandcriticizeeverythingeverwithoutanylegitpost.
If we are all doing it so wrong, give us something to work with instead of saying "you are dumb". I have been reading the competitive Dega forum and even played my own to a 3 top 8 finishes and all the ideas there were aimed at some good. I don't recall seeing you post anything, really.
Anyways, Blood Baron has a lot going for it, more than the dragon, I think. TMH was 5/5 for 5 that always got in. This guy has pro white, which means he can't be Selesyna Charm'd but neither can he be Boros Charm'd. He also doesn't auto-get through like hellkite and the monstrous ability seems like a stretch. Also, doom blade is played, but more so is Putrefy.
You guys are forever doomed to posting in Developing Competitive thanks to your own moronic bs. Enjoy it.
Huh... Good riddance I guess.
Doom Blade never stopped Thundermaw Hellkite. I think black based removal is a valid reason as to why Blood Baron sticks around. Baron picks up slack where Dragon becomes soft and the other way around as well.
I wanted to ask, Kamahl; How does Magma Jet look to you? I see you using it in your list, but would you recommend a set or what? I have played Dega for like a month now and sometimes it seems that I am desperate for certain cards almost always. I guess the scry 2 can help?
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4 Drops are actually a really strange spot as it is. Not only are our options pretty awkward, but with a land coming into play tapped, it makes it even more uncomfortable at times.
For the 4 drops, I cut down my emphasis on them to focus a bit more on 1, 2, and 3 mana cards. My 4 drop set ups is something like this
3 Warleader's Helix
Plate Mail gave me a card that just did not care about the colors of my land at a 4 drop slot, it also fortifies against sweepers, can slip in with a Mutavault and can block when I need it too.
So much less emphasis on the 4 drops and more on making sure I can do something on this turn regardless of colors or a land coming into play tapped.
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The red god doesn't give haste, unless you're thinking of running his hammer?
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I did this and lost some Doom Blades, and I am currently trying a safer land package with regards to shock/etbt. It has worked surprisingly well so far :
4 Godless Shrine
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Silent Temple
7 Mountain
4 Plains
T1 tapped dual (most often B/W, sometimes B/R)
T2 basic (most often Mountain, sometimes Plains), and then I can pretty reliable cast Thoughtseize, Chained or some 2cmc burn spell.
T3 basic or shock for 3cmc creature, or dual tapped for removal and/or Thoughtseize, depending on board state
Maybe I'm playing it safer than I have to though, but the color fixing seems to work.
Edit: How is Underworld Cerberus working for you?
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Elspeth seems good, Eviction I am not sold on right now, I don't currently see of feel the need to have a sweeper.
I would avoid dropping Doom Blade, it and Ultimate Price are really good removal spells to have after rotation from what I am seeing.
Basic lands in this deck stroke. I have been hitting them and my heart sinks a bit. It is the reason I ran Promenade over another basic. The problem with Basics are that when you start flooding all of one or two colors, you just cannot do anything. You run out of options.
I agree don't drop the Doom Blades, you just side them out for Dark Betrayal when facing any deck with heavy black. I still don't know about ultimate price, a lot of hybrid creatures are going to be showing up for the first few months of standard as everyone tries to "break" the Gods by feeding their devotion cost.
Lands will be a big issue, but Kamahl as the right idea, go heavy into two colors and splash a 3rd.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
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Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Sin Collector
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Stormbreath Dragon
Legendary Creatures (2)
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
Enchantments (3)
3 Chained to the Rocks
Artifacts (1)
1 Haunted Plate Mail
Instants (8)
3 Magma Jet
2 Doom Blade
3 Warleader's Helix
3 Thoughtseize
2 Dreadbore
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Read the Bones
2 Rakdos's Return
Lands (25)
4 Godless Shrine
4 Blood Crypt
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
1 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Mutavault
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Me neither, this deck is going to do just fine. Obzedat is the only card I've had trouble casting all day, and even he gets out on T5 like 3 out of 4 times when I've got him (I'm running 2x). That's not enough, but it's a pretty good sign, considering how risky my abovementioned mana base seems. And either way, Cerbebus or Morningbreath can take his place.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Aggro and Control matches are seeming pretty favorable right now. I have not had a chance to get in any testing against midrange strategies yet, just because I am unsure what decks I am looking to pit this against in that area.
But Theros seems to have patched some things up exceptionally well right now.
I am reluctant to put in mutavualt because yeah against control it looks good, but since we run reckoner, perhaps the Shrine to Nyx may be worth a look. It can pump up rakdos returns without tapping a lot of mana and it can ramp?
One thing I am on the fence about is lifebane zombie. IDK if he will be heavily played, but if he is, it would be more of an incentive to run red and black win-cons. I am looking at stormbreath and Purphoros, ideally. Obzedat can still be plucked plus he can be Glare of Heresy target. I think Obzedat is becoming less viable with each day.
-No Dragon in standard (nor the upcoming standard) is better than Blood Baron, and I'd certainly question anyone playing it over Obzedat or even Sire of Insanity.
-Thoughtseize is a card that does absolutely nothing when you're winning, and absolutely nothing if you're losing. It's a pro-active save card for a deck that doesn't need it.
Why are people so committed to ruining the core of a good deck, ensuring that it never sees play at top tables? Dega Midrange, Dega Control, and even Dega Aggro could be exceptional decks if you stop crushing them in the deck-building stage.
It's like you're all struggling, and flailing your arms while praying for Flores or some other overrated pro to build your decks for you. COME ON, PEOPLE!
I merely say that we may need to plan for Lifebane showing up in greater frequency and seeing a blood baron in hand, it will likely be taken.
I still stand by my opinion that obzedat, however, will be far easier to handle post rotation and that another 5-drop, ideally red or black, be put in his place.
When did we pause on how good Thoughtseize is?
This deck has been played in standard. Cards like Thundermaw Hellkite and Stormbreath Dragon are incredible tools for combating other midrange decks when you start flooding the ground with walls like Reckoner and Blood Baron. In the current standard iteration, TMH is the best card in the deck by miles. Stormbreath brings that same playability on a few levels for us.
Obzedat is demanding when it comes to colors and a timely drop. He also gets chumped for days against aggro and midrange decks. His ability is much weaker than that of a flying hasting dragon. This is evident even in the control match where they are so busy trying to stop you from doing anything that TMH can just land and take over.
Thoughtseize is a power card when it comes to providing windows of opportunity or racing to midrange fat. It is proactive disruption that allows you to simultaneously continue advancement.
Feel free to chime in with all your glorious experience and amazing decklists...
Where your last statement comes from is well beyond me...
These two things are something that are important when thinking about the midrange matches as well though. Decks like BG and WG midrange decks can be really stompy at times and it really comes down to figuring out how to effectively race them.
Mutavault is not only damage on an empty board, but also a blocker when you have something like Stormbreath Dragon trying to race Loxodon Smiters and the like, even with Desecration Demon he serves as late game stall fodder.
As for Lifebane Zombie, while he does nab white finishers, I would say the idea is to diversify your threats for the sake of the midrange match rather than just start excluding cards in the MB. Obzedat still has some play room in the main, simply because cards like Glare of Heresy are generally delegated to the SB. You can flex Obzedat back out. He still has mise value.
Underworld Cerberus seems like a beating for midrange decks. Between already trying to put our big beaters one at a time, and our removal... opening just seem inevitable here. T5 Cerberus into T6 Aurelia might as well be game. It is 18 damage alone if they do not have 3 blockers for the hound. I am at 1 in the MB and a 2nd in the SB for the sake of the midrange match.
The problem with moving away from white win conditions is really contingent on the mana and the need for early reckoners. This leaves the mana sometimes skewed and while our cards are not too terribly greedy with mana most of the time, sometimes you do just get draws where you flood of 2 colors and see little to no 3rd in a timely manner. Sticking with some white finishers helps alleviate this a bit.
Regarding Obzedat though... I know glare is a SB card but there is still putrefy, Orzhov charm and Far//Away. Not to mention that I totally forgot that he does get chumped on the ground for days. I am leaning more towards the ceberus and maybe assemble the legion with purphoros, even though it can be a stretch sometimes. I still think SB may be a better option.
Dragon is better than Baron. Dragon is A LOT better than baron. Against Esper dragon dodges same removal except doom blade, which they don't play much, but also dodges sacrifice multicolored, which otherwise kills everything relevant in Dega.
Lategame he threatens to outright kill them in two turns. Baron just waits there for a turn, giving them more time to draw removal or is blanked by aetherling.
And Esper and Monored will be the two most important matchups.
Baron has only one very good matchup - GW aggro, which is winnable enough without him to not play many barons maindeck.
This deck plays 12+ removal, that is dead in some matchups. By using removal slots for seizes you improve overall matchups, because it is relevant against everything.
Also it's maindeckable way to beat Burning earth and other random important stuff that you can't deal with via removal, like gods or hexproof stuff.
Dragon is still miles better.
You guys are forever doomed to posting in Developing Competitive thanks to your own moronic bs. Enjoy it.
Ok Mr. Icomebashaforumwithmyfirstpostandcriticizeeverythingeverwithoutanylegitpost.
If we are all doing it so wrong, give us something to work with instead of saying "you are dumb". I have been reading the competitive Dega forum and even played my own to a 3 top 8 finishes and all the ideas there were aimed at some good. I don't recall seeing you post anything, really.
Anyways, Blood Baron has a lot going for it, more than the dragon, I think. TMH was 5/5 for 5 that always got in. This guy has pro white, which means he can't be Selesyna Charm'd but neither can he be Boros Charm'd. He also doesn't auto-get through like hellkite and the monstrous ability seems like a stretch. Also, doom blade is played, but more so is Putrefy.
Huh... Good riddance I guess.
Doom Blade never stopped Thundermaw Hellkite. I think black based removal is a valid reason as to why Blood Baron sticks around. Baron picks up slack where Dragon becomes soft and the other way around as well.
I wanted to ask, Kamahl; How does Magma Jet look to you? I see you using it in your list, but would you recommend a set or what? I have played Dega for like a month now and sometimes it seems that I am desperate for certain cards almost always. I guess the scry 2 can help?