So tonight I went 0-3 and dropped. So disheartening.
Nothing helped. Sideboarded in Turn/Burn but when 2 Mutavaults are coming at you and you're trying to build to 5 mana to get rid of one of them and he just counters it, it's pretty useless.
Why would you need 5 mana to Burn his Mutavault? You can just Burn it.
DOH! LOL. No wonder I lost. LOL. Well, he countered it anyhow but who knows what would have happened much earlier! dang.
For some reason, my mind just looked at Turn/Burn as a single cost of 5! LOL.. Played the deck so many times without it that when I added it, my mind was still stuck in single-card-casting-costs. Geez. but thanks
Robertroid I had Bow in my first playtest sessions and I wanted to tear it in pieces because I could never find the second green mana in time. Now that I'm working with the full set of Prophetic Prisms I'd like to give it a try again, since it is a nice protection from Obzedat, burn, Gray Merchant and Big Jace (though Im fairly sure Id still side it out against monoU and UWx control)
Robertroid I had Bow in my first playtest sessions and I wanted to tear it in pieces because I could never find the second green mana in time. Now that I'm working with the full set of Prophetic Prisms I'd like to give it a try again, since it is a nice protection from Obzedat, burn, Gray Merchant and Big Jace (though Im fairly sure Id still side it out against monoU and UWx control)
Oddly enough my issue was always a lack of blue mana to use my Divinations to stay in the game. I always had the mana for bow, just never saw them. But life drain/burn is a serious weakness for the deck, so life gain in some form I think has to be present in the 75. Saurli's were actually pretty sweet, 7 is alot vs most strategies. I imagine using Prism's casting bow would be very easy for you to do turn 4 or 3 if you snag an untap land.
This is my current list. First thing is first, Kiora is all right card. Detention Sphere and Hero's Downfall are two prominent cards in a lot of top decks and hold's the card back a lot.
We all love winning with Maze's End (obviously) but I feel we need some type of threat to add to the board. Bringing Crackling Perimeter from the side to the main does the job. It also frees up some space for more hate cards in the side.
Gatecreeper Vine is a card that is so hard not to play. It can be more fog, negate, or kill. However thinning your deck early game and getting the lands you need help a lot. It chumps nicely as well!
As far as sideboard goes, the two most different cards are Blood Baron of Vizkopa and Rapid Hybridization. There is one card that destroys me, Obzedat. I chose Rapid over Turn//Burn. With 3 Revoke Existence, we have Gods covered, so it allows us to play Rapid which hits a wide range of bombs.
Blood Baron is to have that surprise threat against black. Black is by far the worse deck I come into contact with. This card gives me the edge and works well if Sphinx's Revelation is in the main.
This is a great idea! Why not? Since we are in the control shell and runs all five colors WUBRG, I think the Baron could assist on game 2. I used to run Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver too in my Maze's End Deck along with Jace, Memory Adept.
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it is just a bad fog. You cast it and they just replay his creatures for lethal.
Right, but let's compare:
They swing, I fog, they pass I go. After that they swing again and I am right back where I was, but I got one more turn out of it, as it were.
They swing, I aetherize, they now have to recast all attacking creatures. Any tokens are gone entirely, any enchantments are likely lost, any counters gone as well. Now they go to second main phase. Do they have enough mana to recast EVERYTHING? Hey, it's possible, but if you threw back a few big bads, they might only be able to bring half of it back out. They may have spent some or all of their mana on enchantments or whatever during their first main phase. So now they pass, you go, and during their next turn they have to recast those remaining creatures. Whatever they would have done that turn gets delayed again or at least diminished. They also now can only partial swing because whatever they couldn't re-summon last turn is likely summoning sick.
Obviously it might not be that ideal every time. But I view it as having some strong outcomes. Just some thoughts.
its not just 'some thoughts'. It is some 'very good thoughts'. A friend of mine inquired me about aetherize as well and I said 'dude you blew my mind'. In the real world, however... It worked like a bad fog.
I am having trouble beating monoblack with my current like. I might try 2 aetherize main instead of 2 fogs.
ps.: I wont give up until I feel Im battling monoblack and monoblue 50/50 at least.
Why no aetherize? Save it for late game and wait for a full or near full swing. Great tempo as they have to recast everything and deal with sickness.
I believe that card only helps against Mutavault. I also wouldn't want to bounce back any Fanatic of Mogis or Gray Merchant. I'll test and out soon and see how it does. The other thing to remember is keeping a good curve, a lot of players are going to Aethersize and Sphinx's Revelation. Clogging up the late game is no good in my opinion.
This is a great idea! Why not? Since we are in the control shell and runs all five colors WUBRG, I think the Baron could assist on game 2. I used to run Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver too in my Maze's End Deck along with Jace, Memory Adept.
I actually used Jace, Memory Adept in my side at a PTQ, it let me a game and round with it.
Other cards I think are worth mentioning for these slots are Obzedat, Ghost Council and Ætherling. The goal is to have a powerful creature that can survive being killed or removed.
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Actually, Torrez was probably correct to play Turn/Burn, I realize this deals with obzedat and stormbreath quite well. I'm also tempted to try out Abrupt Decay's in the sideboard, I kind of feel without them the control matchup is nearly unlosable.
I feel the deck needs Abrupt Decay as well. I just think turn/burn is a 5 mana Putrefy, considering you have little interest in burning small creatures.
I would like to share my latest list. It is doing quite well against blue and black devotion.
2 of each guildgate
3 selesnya guildgate
4 maze's end
1 temple garden
1 breeding pool
(27 lands and not looking back)
sideboard is still messy, but Im running for sure:
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Unravel the Aether
1 Crackling Perimeter
3 Putrefy (maybe a mix with Turn//Burn)
3 Heroes Reunion
4 Negate
1 Dispel
Been quite happy with this build so far. Maybe Turn//Burn should be there to act like shock vs small agro and 5 mana removal against big agro, but for now i'll try it. Also when you are on fog mode you can just activate Bow of Nylea vs Obzedat. If that's enough I might consider another in my sb which could also work vs burn.
Well what I like about turn/burn is it deals with nearly all of the creatures that can be an issue for this style of deck. Generally you're on the fog plan till verdicts start stabilizing the board for you, and Obzedat/Stormbreath/Mutavault/Gods all don't die to that plan, where as turn/burn easily deals with all of these. (I never had issue with Mutavault, but anything that avoids Verdict should be considered a threat to this deck I think)
Abrupt Decay just seems like the biggest FU to control matchups I can think of, without pithing needle I seriously have no idea how they win outside of simply getting a god curve while you flounder and manage to never find a maze. (Speaking of which an important lesson I've learned with this deck is to never keep a hand without maze or a draw spell, fog/lands is actually a very mediocre keep if you don't think you can last long enough to find the Maze)
true about the hands, though I'm very resistant to mulligan now. Your cards aren't doing much, and I never won a game from a mull to 5. I think all you want to do is to hit your precious land drops, though of course a hand with 6 lands + fog is not going to make it.
While playtesting (and I've been doing this a lot) I have this policy to try and keep more hands to see how they go. This ends up with me losing more games, and people starts guessing if the deck is viable, because they think if you lose 6 out of 10 matches your deck sucks.
I just need to learn what hands to mull/keep and whats the optimal sideboard for my list and I am finally ready for the GP.
I just think turn/burn is a 5 mana Putrefy, considering you have little interest in burning small creatures.
How do you deal with Mutavaults and Gods?
Turn/Burn is great early game and amazing late game. On the play the card can deal with Pack Rat or Mutavault before they have a chance to become dangerous. It punishes Mono Black for waiting the turn before we wrath to drop a Thoughtseize. Just being able to deal with there Gods at instant speed should be enough to keep them in the side.
http://www.limitedmagic.com/a-maze-ing-gameplay-standard-mazes-end/ Interesting videos from Torrez, I'm building his same build but without 61 cards and taking out the Quickens, I don't like it, I might be wrong. I asked him what's his current build as of today, because the deck's gameplay is from 2 weeks ago.
Turn // Burn is amazing, it's normally relevant in all stages of the game, even against control and their Mutavaults.
How is Turn/Burn against RG monsters and jund? I am def not bringing them against monoblack and monoblue. I have tested these matchups for certainly more than a hundred times and my strategy is locked and I am quite quite happy with it. If you guys have your own sideboard and strategy against monoblue and monoblack and you are bringing Turn/Burn and you are happy with it thats ok.
again, if I bring turn/burn it will be against jund, rg, ow midrange and fast decks.
http://www.limitedmagic.com/a-maze-ing-gameplay-standard-mazes-end/ Interesting videos from Torrez, I'm building his same build but without 61 cards and taking out the Quickens, I don't like it, I might be wrong. I asked him what's his current build as of today, because the deck's gameplay is from 2 weeks ago.
Turn // Burn is amazing, it's normally relevant in all stages of the game, even against control and their Mutavaults.
Really fun deck
With all my respect he played really bad in this video. He admitted it also, saying he was very tired.
Well, if you are very tired and you are going to play bad because of it, you can always get some sleep and record your videos later =/
You might like his list (I don't) but don't rely too much on his plays.
How is Turn/Burn against RG monsters and jund? I am def not bringing them against monoblack and monoblue. I have tested these matchups for certainly more than a hundred times and my strategy is locked and I am quite quite happy with it. If you guys have your own sideboard and strategy against monoblue and monoblack and you are bringing Turn/Burn and you are happy with it thats ok.
again, if I bring turn/burn it will be against jund, rg, ow midrange and fast decks.
Care to share with us your game plan against MBD and MUD?
How is Turn/Burn against RG monsters and jund? I am def not bringing them against monoblack and monoblue. I have tested these matchups for certainly more than a hundred times and my strategy is locked and I am quite quite happy with it. If you guys have your own sideboard and strategy against monoblue and monoblack and you are bringing Turn/Burn and you are happy with it thats ok.
again, if I bring turn/burn it will be against jund, rg, ow midrange and fast decks.
Care to share with us your game plan against MBD and MUD?
(Based on my list posted above)
Vs Monoblack
You must make this an attriction game and not a fog game. He has around 11 dead draws against you, so bringing this to an attriction favors you. The most he can do with his dead draws is to use them to activate Pack Rat, which eats your removals. For him to win this game he must keep pressuring you while not overcommiting the board then killing you with playing lots of permanents + Gray Merchant. Keeping him at low devotion is key.
You pretty much need to stay above Gray Merchant's reach. For that you don't have to wait too much to cast your removals. Don't wait for the opponent to overcommit the board since he can always wreck you with Thoughtseize and/or multiple permanents + Gray Merchant the same turn. Save your spheres and merciless evitions to his underworld connections if possible.
Entering fog mode is ok but you can't expect to just do that for too many turns. It is desirable to first spend your removal to then enter fog mode.
Bow of Nylea helps you stay above Gray Merchant's reach. Do never miss a land drop by doing fancy things. If you have to activate Mazes End and replay it instead of casting draw spells, do it, unless you really need answers to the board.
Sideboard
-1 Bow of Nylea
-1 Druid's Deliverance
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Unravel the Aether/Revoke Existence (considering that swap)
You must think I am crazy for not only be playing 12 fogs maindeck, but also removing one post sideboard. Again, this is an attriction game, and if you don't play it like so you'll just cast fogs until you die. Black now has 3 to 4 Duress and 2 to 3 Erebos, plus 3 Lifebane Zombies. He might still have around 2 dead draws this game, but now he has more discard. All you have to do is to cast your removal as soon as possible, and don't worry if you are just killing mediocre creatures with your so powerful Supreme Verdict, since he has now 7 to 8 discards.
Aim your Detention Spheres and Merciless Evictions to his Underworld Connections and Erebos. Be careful to not name 'enchantments' while having spheres in play. Use your Pithing Needle to shut down his Mutavaults, Erebos or Connections (by naming the land he is enchanting).
This is an attriction matchup. Attack his permanents and never let him build a big board. 2 creatures is more than enough to cast Supreme Verdict. 1 Desecration Demon is more than enough to cast Supreme Verdict. 1 Underworld Connections is more than enough to cast Sphere/Eviction.
Edit: I'm going to try and take out all 3 Druid's Deliverance and put my spot removals. So far I have +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Putrefy, +1 Turn/Burn possibly - and then kill everything that moves. Just need to wait for modo to be online again.
DOH! LOL. No wonder I lost. LOL. Well, he countered it anyhow but who knows what would have happened much earlier! dang.
For some reason, my mind just looked at Turn/Burn as a single cost of 5! LOL.. Played the deck so many times without it that when I added it, my mind was still stuck in single-card-casting-costs. Geez. but thanks
Oddly enough my issue was always a lack of blue mana to use my Divinations to stay in the game. I always had the mana for bow, just never saw them. But life drain/burn is a serious weakness for the deck, so life gain in some form I think has to be present in the 75. Saurli's were actually pretty sweet, 7 is alot vs most strategies. I imagine using Prism's casting bow would be very easy for you to do turn 4 or 3 if you snag an untap land.
We all love winning with Maze's End (obviously) but I feel we need some type of threat to add to the board. Bringing Crackling Perimeter from the side to the main does the job. It also frees up some space for more hate cards in the side.
Gatecreeper Vine is a card that is so hard not to play. It can be more fog, negate, or kill. However thinning your deck early game and getting the lands you need help a lot. It chumps nicely as well!
As far as sideboard goes, the two most different cards are Blood Baron of Vizkopa and Rapid Hybridization. There is one card that destroys me, Obzedat. I chose Rapid over Turn//Burn. With 3 Revoke Existence, we have Gods covered, so it allows us to play Rapid which hits a wide range of bombs.
Blood Baron is to have that surprise threat against black. Black is by far the worse deck I come into contact with. This card gives me the edge and works well if Sphinx's Revelation is in the main.
4x Gatecreeper Vine
Instant
4x Fog
4x Druid's Deliverance
4x Riot Control
2x Negate
Sorcery
4x Supreme Verdict
3x Urban Evolution
2x Merciless Eviction
3x Detention Sphere
2x Crackling Perimeter
1x Bow of Nylea
Planeswalker
1x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Land
4x Maze's End
2x Azorius Guildgate
2x Simic Guildgate
2x Selesnya Guildgate
2x Gruul Guildgate
2x Golgari Guildgate
2x Boros Guildgate
2x Rakdos Guildgate
2x Izzet Guildgate
2x Dimir Guildgate
2x Orzhov Guildgate
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Temple Garden
3x Saruli Gatekeepers
3x Revoke Existence
3x Rapid Hybridization
2x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2x Gainsay
1x Crackling Perimeter
1x Merciless Eviction
Decks:
This is a great idea! Why not? Since we are in the control shell and runs all five colors WUBRG, I think the Baron could assist on game 2. I used to run Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver too in my Maze's End Deck along with Jace, Memory Adept.
Why no aetherize? Save it for late game and wait for a full or near full swing. Great tempo as they have to recast everything and deal with sickness.
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
Right, but let's compare:
They swing, I fog, they pass I go. After that they swing again and I am right back where I was, but I got one more turn out of it, as it were.
They swing, I aetherize, they now have to recast all attacking creatures. Any tokens are gone entirely, any enchantments are likely lost, any counters gone as well. Now they go to second main phase. Do they have enough mana to recast EVERYTHING? Hey, it's possible, but if you threw back a few big bads, they might only be able to bring half of it back out. They may have spent some or all of their mana on enchantments or whatever during their first main phase. So now they pass, you go, and during their next turn they have to recast those remaining creatures. Whatever they would have done that turn gets delayed again or at least diminished. They also now can only partial swing because whatever they couldn't re-summon last turn is likely summoning sick.
Obviously it might not be that ideal every time. But I view it as having some strong outcomes. Just some thoughts.
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
I am having trouble beating monoblack with my current like. I might try 2 aetherize main instead of 2 fogs.
ps.: I wont give up until I feel Im battling monoblack and monoblue 50/50 at least.
I believe that card only helps against Mutavault. I also wouldn't want to bounce back any Fanatic of Mogis or Gray Merchant. I'll test and out soon and see how it does. The other thing to remember is keeping a good curve, a lot of players are going to Aethersize and Sphinx's Revelation. Clogging up the late game is no good in my opinion.
Decks:
I actually used Jace, Memory Adept in my side at a PTQ, it let me a game and round with it.
Other cards I think are worth mentioning for these slots are Obzedat, Ghost Council and Ætherling. The goal is to have a powerful creature that can survive being killed or removed.
Decks:
I feel the deck needs Abrupt Decay as well. I just think turn/burn is a 5 mana Putrefy, considering you have little interest in burning small creatures.
I would like to share my latest list. It is doing quite well against blue and black devotion.
2 of each guildgate
3 selesnya guildgate
4 maze's end
1 temple garden
1 breeding pool
(27 lands and not looking back)
4 supreme verdict
4 detention sphere
3 divination
3 urban evolution
2 merciless eviction
4 prophetic prism
1 bow of nylea
4 fog
4 druid's deliverance
4 riot control
sideboard is still messy, but Im running for sure:
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Unravel the Aether
1 Crackling Perimeter
3 Putrefy (maybe a mix with Turn//Burn)
3 Heroes Reunion
4 Negate
1 Dispel
Been quite happy with this build so far. Maybe Turn//Burn should be there to act like shock vs small agro and 5 mana removal against big agro, but for now i'll try it. Also when you are on fog mode you can just activate Bow of Nylea vs Obzedat. If that's enough I might consider another in my sb which could also work vs burn.
Happy brewing.
Abrupt Decay just seems like the biggest FU to control matchups I can think of, without pithing needle I seriously have no idea how they win outside of simply getting a god curve while you flounder and manage to never find a maze. (Speaking of which an important lesson I've learned with this deck is to never keep a hand without maze or a draw spell, fog/lands is actually a very mediocre keep if you don't think you can last long enough to find the Maze)
While playtesting (and I've been doing this a lot) I have this policy to try and keep more hands to see how they go. This ends up with me losing more games, and people starts guessing if the deck is viable, because they think if you lose 6 out of 10 matches your deck sucks.
I just need to learn what hands to mull/keep and whats the optimal sideboard for my list and I am finally ready for the GP.
How do you deal with Mutavaults and Gods?
Turn/Burn is great early game and amazing late game. On the play the card can deal with Pack Rat or Mutavault before they have a chance to become dangerous. It punishes Mono Black for waiting the turn before we wrath to drop a Thoughtseize. Just being able to deal with there Gods at instant speed should be enough to keep them in the side.
"I just need to learn what hands to mull/keep and whats the optimal sideboard for my list and I am finally ready for the GP."
THIS
Turn // Burn is amazing, it's normally relevant in all stages of the game, even against control and their Mutavaults.
Really fun deck
How is Turn/Burn against RG monsters and jund? I am def not bringing them against monoblack and monoblue. I have tested these matchups for certainly more than a hundred times and my strategy is locked and I am quite quite happy with it. If you guys have your own sideboard and strategy against monoblue and monoblack and you are bringing Turn/Burn and you are happy with it thats ok.
again, if I bring turn/burn it will be against jund, rg, ow midrange and fast decks.
With all my respect he played really bad in this video. He admitted it also, saying he was very tired.
Well, if you are very tired and you are going to play bad because of it, you can always get some sleep and record your videos later =/
You might like his list (I don't) but don't rely too much on his plays.
Care to share with us your game plan against MBD and MUD?
(Based on my list posted above)
Vs Monoblack
You must make this an attriction game and not a fog game. He has around 11 dead draws against you, so bringing this to an attriction favors you. The most he can do with his dead draws is to use them to activate Pack Rat, which eats your removals. For him to win this game he must keep pressuring you while not overcommiting the board then killing you with playing lots of permanents + Gray Merchant. Keeping him at low devotion is key.
You pretty much need to stay above Gray Merchant's reach. For that you don't have to wait too much to cast your removals. Don't wait for the opponent to overcommit the board since he can always wreck you with Thoughtseize and/or multiple permanents + Gray Merchant the same turn. Save your spheres and merciless evitions to his underworld connections if possible.
Entering fog mode is ok but you can't expect to just do that for too many turns. It is desirable to first spend your removal to then enter fog mode.
Bow of Nylea helps you stay above Gray Merchant's reach. Do never miss a land drop by doing fancy things. If you have to activate Mazes End and replay it instead of casting draw spells, do it, unless you really need answers to the board.
Sideboard
-1 Bow of Nylea
-1 Druid's Deliverance
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Unravel the Aether/Revoke Existence (considering that swap)
You must think I am crazy for not only be playing 12 fogs maindeck, but also removing one post sideboard. Again, this is an attriction game, and if you don't play it like so you'll just cast fogs until you die. Black now has 3 to 4 Duress and 2 to 3 Erebos, plus 3 Lifebane Zombies. He might still have around 2 dead draws this game, but now he has more discard. All you have to do is to cast your removal as soon as possible, and don't worry if you are just killing mediocre creatures with your so powerful Supreme Verdict, since he has now 7 to 8 discards.
Aim your Detention Spheres and Merciless Evictions to his Underworld Connections and Erebos. Be careful to not name 'enchantments' while having spheres in play. Use your Pithing Needle to shut down his Mutavaults, Erebos or Connections (by naming the land he is enchanting).
This is an attriction matchup. Attack his permanents and never let him build a big board. 2 creatures is more than enough to cast Supreme Verdict. 1 Desecration Demon is more than enough to cast Supreme Verdict. 1 Underworld Connections is more than enough to cast Sphere/Eviction.
Edit: I'm going to try and take out all 3 Druid's Deliverance and put my spot removals. So far I have +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Putrefy, +1 Turn/Burn possibly - and then kill everything that moves. Just need to wait for modo to be online again.