You lose the ability to board wipe, but gain blockers and acceleration towards your wincon. With 16 fogs, the board wipes always seemed superfluous anyway. Kiora gives you a nice alt wincon, and the 1-of Cyclonic Rift is at least some protection from Pithing Needle ruining your plan in game 1 (you know, just in case someone crazy maindecks one). Also... pseudo board-wipe.
That's good advice. Hopefully Kiora's value takes a dive next week so I can buy them for cheap ($15 in town. Good deal you think?). I'm guessing I could drop The Divination for those spots, but I wouldn't know what to take out for the remaining 2 Kioras I'd need. I'm also thinking it would be better to run shocks instead of a 3rd guildgate of any kind. My last concern is about Fated Retribution. Drop the Merciless Eviction for it or not?
You lose the ability to board wipe, but gain blockers and acceleration towards your wincon. With 16 fogs, the board wipes always seemed superfluous anyway. Kiora gives you a nice alt wincon, and the 1-of Cyclonic Rift is at least some protection from Pithing Needle ruining your plan in game 1 (you know, just in case someone crazy maindecks one). Also... pseudo board-wipe.
Keep in mind this is a very derivative idea for the deck. You're abandoning the control aspects of the deck in order to turn it into a focused combo deck. It's a very risky idea, but it's not bad.
With that said to protect myself, Aidoneus' list would be a jumping off point for any testing. Goldfish / test the deck to see how fast you can win with it. Knowing the average amount of turns the Accelerated list can win in is a good measurement if the idea has merit or not. After that is determined, we can start worrying about fitting in things so we don't die horribly (I know right off the bat not running boardwipes means we're soft to Fanatic of Mogis and Gray Merchant, b/c they can build up devotion no problem).
Other things:
Merciless Eviction is better than Fated Retribution most of the time, and especially as a one-of in the maindeck. It has less mana restrictions, costs 1 less, and has multiple modes. I'd run both as one-ofs if I had room, though. They're both good.
Bant shocks for the Accelerated version would be a good addition, as would an increase of Bant guildgates if you don't want to do that. This is one of the few times I'd be okay with going down to one-ofs of gates, because of the focused color requirements.
I'd buy Kioras at $15. If she goes down to 10 and below I'd be surprised.
tl;dr Test the list thoroughly and get back to us. It has merit.
Sorry, the Fanatic was my mistake. But yes, it does stop Purphoros, Mogis, God of Slaughter, and Ruric Thar. I know that Courser and Gatecreeper don't put lands into play either like Urban Evolution does, but I think that you could be dropping a land every turn and have the game close to finished before turn 10. As Allusion said, it's worth testing and I'll put it to the test this weekend and next. I'll let you know how it does against the meta.
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I played the creature version today at a 22 person standard tournament and faced Esper control (won 2-1), Mono black devotion (tied 1-1-1), Grixis midrange (lost 1-2), and GR monsters (lost 0-2).
Aside from countless mistakes I made as a new player to the deck, I think the deck has some merits. Gatecreeper, Courser, and Kiora did great at speeding my up draws, especially against Esper. When I had them in play together, they really did some work. However, against black the Courser sucked up all the removal they had (which was expected). I made a few mistakes which cost me the win against them. Rakdos Return was the card that destroyed me against Grixis midrange. I had the card draw and fogs to stop their dragons and demons, but 2 Rakdos Returns crippled me. If I had more experience with the deck I probably would have sided in the Negates, but I didn't. Definitely winnable but I needed a better sideboarding plan. My last match against GR was downright embarrassing. The deck lacked card draw and I couldn't keep enough fogs in my hand. All it took was one turn for him to Bring out a Polukranos, give it haste with Xenagos god, and then using Xenagos walker to power out a Dragon and hit me for 22 damage in one turn.
I decided to put together a creature-less version like Allusion talked about, and I'd like to get some feedback on it.
I upped the fogs to 16, added 2 more Urban Evolutions and another Divination for card draw (which I thought was lacking), and added 2 Cyclonic Rifts to the main board to deal with devotion strategies. If black strategies wane, I would like to add in Courser and Gatecreeper again to help play lands every turn, but right now it's probably not worth it. Thoughts on the new build?
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I've just played a PTQ here in Argentina with this deck, and ended dropping at 3-4, mostly because of bad beats (3-land keeper, not seeing a land on the following 6 turns and stuff. I lost to SELESNYA AGGRO, drawing 2 and 4 fog effects respectively on each game). The last version of the list I got was the following:
The plan is super straightforward: Try to survive until you get your maze online and win. Focus on that and only that.
Prophetic prism is a cheap cantrip replacing Divination mostly because it costs 1 mana less for 1 card less, and can be cast on turn 3 rather than turn 4, also allowing to fix hands that would be an instant mulligan in other situations. Getting WW or the missing U for a Verdict is key, and there are hands that are REALLY good, but the lands don't help them at all.
On the sideboard, Gainsay lets you get through the disruption of UW Control and Monoblue devotion on Games 2-3 (Believe me when I say that Monoblue devotion is a 95-5 pre-side -5 being the error margyn of not getting screwed or not drawing a fog at all-, 80-20 post-side -depending on how fast you can put a maze and/or a Perimeter Online).
The split card is simply awesome. Killing Mutavaults and gods alike, fogging and Obzedat and Wrathing on your turn, or simply just Turning a Frostburn Weird into a dead creature after pumping just once (remember, becomes a 0/1 with +1/-1 until end of turn).
The matchs I won:
Monoblue devotion: 2-0
Orzhov Midrange: 2-0 (easier than Monoblack, not having Gary around)
UW Control: 2-1 (not drawing a single removal for needle, killed by BLIND OBEDIENCE after getting all 10 Gates and the Maze.
The Matchs I lost:
Selesnya Aggo: 1-2 (as explained above)
Monolack Devotion: 0-2 (second game he mulled 5, and I ended the game with a perimeter, 3 Gates and 2 Shocklands, against an Erebos, Gary, Demon, Connections, and stuff)
RG Monsters: 1-2 (Flesh and Dragon did the thing)
Naya Midrange: 0-2 (drew 3 lands on both games)
Thoughts on Kiora: It's Really good, but she doesn't have place on this deck. It's more a SuperFriend's Oriented card. and you get no real advantage of it in most games (except vs. Control decks, where you win anyway, and a Win-more is not necessary).
Cyclonic Rift is the nuts. I used to run 1-off, and I think it is about time for it to go back to the 75. Maybe 2 copies. It does a great job keeping Devotion at minimum, and is an instant-speed bounce for Pack rat instead of losing a Fog on the first turns.
So, I played this deck back in block - both with and without creatures, so the current builds have me asking some questions.
Why isn't Gatekeeper Vine a better cantrip than Prophetic Prism? I understand he's not much of a chump, but it seems like he fetches, thins, blocks, and delays needing to spend a fog. In a way, the same can be said for our two centaur choices. Courser of Kruphix demands instant removal from your opponent, insta-plays a land nearly 50% of the time in a 28-land deck, and does more than chump at 1GG. Saruli Gatekeepers doesn't thin, but the 7-life swing can mean a lot, plus the ability to force a second creature onto the table before you Wrath.
There's nothing new in the deck, per se, except the 16th fog. Am I missing a change that makes this a vast improvement over the previous deck that used Far // Away and Ral Zerek for removal?
You all should be ashamed of yourselves for even considering playing a Maze's End Turbofog deck Not only are they barely competitive, playing against them makes you feel like you wasted your Friday night, even tho you get an easy win out of it.
I've just played a PTQ here in Argentina with this deck, and ended dropping at 3-4, mostly because of bad beats (3-land keeper, not seeing a land on the following 6 turns and stuff. I lost to SELESNYA AGGRO, drawing 2 and 4 fog effects respectively on each game). The last version of the list I got was the following:
The plan is super straightforward: Try to survive until you get your maze online and win. Focus on that and only that.
Prophetic prism is a cheap cantrip replacing Divination mostly because it costs 1 mana less for 1 card less, and can be cast on turn 3 rather than turn 4, also allowing to fix hands that would be an instant mulligan in other situations. Getting WW or the missing U for a Verdict is key, and there are hands that are REALLY good, but the lands don't help them at all.
On the sideboard, Gainsay lets you get through the disruption of UW Control and Monoblue devotion on Games 2-3 (Believe me when I say that Monoblue devotion is a 95-5 pre-side -5 being the error margyn of not getting screwed or not drawing a fog at all-, 80-20 post-side -depending on how fast you can put a maze and/or a Perimeter Online).
The split card is simply awesome. Killing Mutavaults and gods alike, fogging and Obzedat and Wrathing on your turn, or simply just Turning a Frostburn Weird into a dead creature after pumping just once (remember, becomes a 0/1 with +1/-1 until end of turn).
The matchs I won:
Monoblue devotion: 2-0
Orzhov Midrange: 2-0 (easier than Monoblack, not having Gary around)
UW Control: 2-1 (not drawing a single removal for needle, killed by BLIND OBEDIENCE after getting all 10 Gates and the Maze.
The Matchs I lost:
Selesnya Aggo: 1-2 (as explained above)
Monolack Devotion: 0-2 (second game he mulled 5, and I ended the game with a perimeter, 3 Gates and 2 Shocklands, against an Erebos, Gary, Demon, Connections, and stuff)
RG Monsters: 1-2 (Flesh and Dragon did the thing)
Naya Midrange: 0-2 (drew 3 lands on both games)
Thoughts on Kiora: It's Really good, but she doesn't have place on this deck. It's more a SuperFriend's Oriented card. and you get no real advantage of it in most games (except vs. Control decks, where you win anyway, and a Win-more is not necessary).
Cyclonic Rift is the nuts. I used to run 1-off, and I think it is about time for it to go back to the 75. Maybe 2 copies. It does a great job keeping Devotion at minimum, and is an instant-speed bounce for Pack rat instead of losing a Fog on the first turns.
a) Why do you use so many sb slots to counters? Do you side them in too many matches besides Ux Control and MUD?
b) Any idea to get our RG matchup better? I find them one of the most difficult matches (Ruric Thar, both Xenagos and Dragons with haste)... I may try Blind obedience...
c)I like turn/burn very much when facing obzedats. I believe we can potentially side them in against BW, UWB (ephara decks) and maybe MBD.
d)I just don't see in which scenario Far/Away could help us against monoblack. I think that the key to this match is to side in 2 slaughter games and 2 Cyclonic Rift (and side out some fogs). If one of these 4 survives the heavy discards we can potentially win the game.
Oh, I am the one that played the Maze end "try hard" on the PTQ
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Since I love fog decks, I decided to try out Beanwarrior's list with much excitement.
I admit to being new to the deck and the decision making can be tough sometimes with this deck. I bombed out bad Friday night with a 0-4 record. I did in fact learn some new things and that's really why I went out to play it. Gotta start somewhere. One of my games drove me crazy as I went 8 turns missing land drops and never finding my maze! Ridiculous for a deck with this many lands but that's how it went. (Deck is sleeved, super-shuffled like you all do). I also found myself numerous times dying in need of either a board sweep or a fog for one more turn or looking for my maze's end etc. So today, I played with a newly main-boarded Diabolic Tutor (1). Totally awesome! I strongly suggest testing it out! It makes for the 5th supreme verdict or the 5 fog or the 5th Riot Control or the 5th Maze's end etc etc. It replaces itself, thins the deck by one and now you have what your dying for and not drawing into. Today I tutored for a much needed Verdict in one game and Tutored for a much needed Maze in another game. You'll never be depressed having it in your hand. And if you never draw the one-of tutor, then you will probably already have what you need in your hand instead.
So for Beanwarrior's list I did:
-2 negate
-1 bow
+2 Divination (as beanwarrior was already discussing at one point)
+1 Diabolic Tutor
Back when New Phyrexia and Innistrad block were legal, I played the B/W Sorin/Sorin's Vengeance combo deck. Even though there were 4-of's of the needed combo pieces, there were too many times when I never saw them. So I main-boarded 2 Diabolic Tutors to that deck and suddenly went Top4 twice and one 1st Place (won From the Vault Realms!) and then the deck rotated! Those 2 tutors made all the difference in the world which inspired me to try it out here.
I'll keep playing and see how it goes but the tutor is really awesome here. I mean, how upset would you be to have it in your hand? Go get another verdict and scrub the table with it! Grab that much needed Riot Control! ETC!!! Towards late game you can tutor for that extra gate to keep in your hand and win a turn earlier-
Otherwise, loving the deck as it's fun to play and your opponent keeps counting the gates on the table. We'll see how much better I might get with it.
@BK44
Trying out Diabolic Tutor seems not a bad idea but let me tell you that it cost 2BB. Maze's End Decks runs around the BANT (WUG) shell effectively which means you must have enough black source for it. Would you mind showing your deck list involving the tutor?
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@BK44
A friend and I were also experiencing the same thing yesterday and we call it the "Durrdle" effect. We were trying to figure out if there was anything that could help allievate that problem where you have all the right parts but missing that one thing to win either Maze's End, Fog effect, or sweeper. I completely agree with you in trying diabolic tutor. Probably replacing a divination for it (2 remaining in the deck).
@BK44
Trying out Diabolic Tutor seems not a bad idea but let me tell you that it cost 2BB. Maze's End Decks runs around the BANT (WUG) shell effectively which means you must have enough black source for it. Would you mind showing your deck list involving the tutor?
This deck is really fog, which in the current standard is G/W. Blue happens to lend to board clearing so I guess you could consider the deck Bant. However, the mana base provides 10 sources of each at color at a minimum and you aren't always going to be casting Diabolic Tutor on turn 5.
Not trying to pick your post apart, just want to make sure people don't think the deck has to stick to two or three colors to win.
Maybe a one diabolic tutor is a good idea. I for example run a bant shell but also 3 prophetic prism to fix early. It is not so difficult to reach 2 black sources on the mid/late game (that is when we should need to play diabolic tutor). I replaced one Merciless Eviction for it just for trying it.
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a) Why do you use so many sb slots to counters? Do you side them in too many matches besides Ux Control and MUD?
b) Any idea to get our RG matchup better? I find them one of the most difficult matches (Ruric Thar, both Xenagos and Dragons with haste)... I may try Blind obedience...
c)I like turn/burn very much when facing obzedats. I believe we can potentially side them in against BW, UWB (ephara decks) and maybe MBD.
d)I just don't see in which scenario Far/Away could help us against monoblack. I think that the key to this match is to side in 2 slaughter games and 2 Cyclonic Rift (and side out some fogs). If one of these 4 survives the heavy discards we can potentially win the game.
Oh, I am the one that played the Maze end "try hard" on the PTQ
Indeed 61 cards. I was thinking which card to cut, and I couldn't figure it before handing decklist, so I ran 61 :P.
About your questhoughts (?):
a)Negates comes in against Red strategies too, being able to hit from Skullcrack to Assemble the Legion, apart from Burning Earth, Hammer of Purphoros, Late Planeswalkers like Domri and Xenagos, Flesh (Which is one of the main problems against RG Monsters pre-board, only being "foggable" by Riot Control), Also comes against Orzhov Midrange and *Maybe* MonoBlack Devotion, dealing with Connections, discard spells from each deck, and Elspeth and Revoke Existence from Orzhov Midrange.
b)Blind Obedience can be a card to consider. Most problems from Rx decks are Hasty critters, especially with the new Xenagos around. It also pings our opponents when we have spare mana, and get some lifegain in the meantime.
c)Turn//Burn can be Maindeck material. It is MVP against any deck that runs mutavaults, being able to kill them insted of using a fog when they plan to race us in order to start spending fogs. It also kills little Pack Rats, at times making little 2*1s fogging a Rat and Killing another (It loses the subtype Rat, nerfing the others).
d)Far//Away has the same reasoning of Turn//Burn. The cheap part turns a removal spell against Rat tokens, and fusing it can lessen their devotion if they are not on the Rat plan (Bouncing Erebos -maybe?- and forcing to sac a Nightveil Specter are 8 life less in the race when responding to a Gary (counting the 4 life we lose against the 4 life they would gain, in case we have a perimeter Online). Slaughter Games is not an option in my opinion. a 4-mana spell, conditioned to be cast in case they are not racing us with rats, potentially being discarded, is not a strong choice. I'd rather go with Cyclonic Rift in that case. Overloaded or not, it gets much more value, Bouncing Connections if needed to prevent them from getting ahead on the card advantage race.
And yes, I figured that :D. How did that version went? Any thoughts comparing the "Tryhard Removal" Version agains the TurboFog?
Right, well my deck did not do as well as I had hoped last FNM. I ended up getting blown out in match 1 game 1 by mono black after drawing ALL of my fogs and not a single removal spell and he had literally 8 creatures on the board (he nearly killed himself off three bestowed Herald of Torment and 2 pain seers). Game 2 was never finding the blue source for any cards in my hand. Match 2 I fought W/B aggro and ended up killing him off with my one of perimeter (found no maze). Game 2 found out first hand how AWFUL whelming wave actually is, really thought it would be better but yea..... game 3 I never found a 4th land (wee). Match 3 was against my friend running esper I just let him have the win so he could top but played it out anyway, lost game 1 due to no land and would've beat him in games 2 and 3.
However there was another mazes end in the top 4 (my friend with esper beat him for 1st place). He was running Prophet of Kruphix, Rev, gate creaper vine and both blue and green gatekeepers instead of 8 more fog cards (he is at fog and Riot Control). He put up better results then me so I can't say his is worse.
Only drew Kiora twice, once was ripped by thoughtseize and the other time I had no blue mana so I can't say she is bad yet.
I like the idea of running the Diabolic Tutor.
I"m not giving up on the deck yet due to one bad night of luck. Heck, the deck I ran at our "city" tournament just poo'd all up on itself the next day and THAT'S a proven deck (MBD splashing red for Rakdos's Return and Dreadbore, no removal all day weee).
All in all, a REALLY frustrating week in magic. But hey, at least the lego movie was actually pretty good.
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@BK44
Trying out Diabolic Tutor seems not a bad idea but let me tell you that it cost 2BB. Maze's End Decks runs around the BANT (WUG) shell effectively which means you must have enough black source for it. Would you mind showing your deck list involving the tutor?
Responding to the black mana question here @Xanthic and others-
I did not have a problem with getting or already having the black mana needed to cast Diabolic Tutor. You wont always have it on turn 5 and in my opinion, Tutor would be awesome on turn 5 if possible, but in reality, it would probably be Turn 6 to leave up a fog mana or Turn 7 to leave up 1G for other fog effects. I did not change the mana base from BeanWarrior's GP list so it is still 2 each of all gates, (3 selesnya) and the 3 shocks he included- Breeding Pool, Hallowed Fountain and Temple Garden.
Although Negate is sometimes needed, it tended to be dead in my hand for quite a while. So I replaced 1 negate with the Diabolic Tutor and 1 negate for a Divination and moved the bow to the SB for a second Divination leaving just 1 negate in the MB. If we went with 2 Diabolic Tutor instead, then I might be a tad concerned about the current mana base. I agree that a little more testing is needed with the 1 Tutor/mana base but I'm not that good at totally tinkering with an already good deck. I can in fact say that I used the 1 Tutor more than Negate in 4 rounds and was excited to do so. I didn't have any mana issue since there are a total of 8 cards in the deck that grant black mana AND you will probably be going 7 opening cards in hand plus possibly 5-6 more turns (draws). The tutor should be seen as mid-game to slighly past mid-game.
@Magna Golem
"Game 2 found out first hand how AWFUL whelming wave actually is, really thought it would be better but yea..... "
Ya know, I've always loved bounce effects but these days there are just too many ETB effects out there to put something back into their hand only to watch them cast it again on second main phase. Like, Whelming Wave would be horrible against Gary obviously! etc etc. Just too many etb's in my opinion. Some players here love Cyclonic Rift but I'm afraid of the same issue- being dead against ETB type creatures. Thanks for your report though!
Cyclonic Rift/Whelming Wave can sometimes be a huge blowout but I think it's more suited to decks that can just win off the swing back than it is to our deck. We don't run a lot of counters to benefit from making them replay their threats, and typically have zero threats on the board to capitalize on removing blockers so I don't think it fits. It's essentially just a really expensive fog effect with the additional downside of allowing them to reuse ETB effects like BK44 mentioned. I've been liking Fated Retribution quite a bit. It's expensive but stalling is what our deck does best and it has the added plus of hitting planeswalkers (I don't run Kiora). A lot of people in my meta this past Friday were running pile_of_mythic_rares.dec with four Jace, Kiora and some number of Elspeths together with Coursers and Prophet of Kruphix. Being able to Fated Retribution at instant speed to clear their entire board is a scoop-inducing blowout. It basically serves the same purpose as Quicken without requiring a Verdict in hand and also hitting more relevant threats at the cost of two more mana. A good deal in my book.
Another thought I've been having but have not tried yet is 1 Jace Memory Adept for Game2. Only using his card draw ability so that we would then be drawing 2 cards per turn as long as he is kept alive. Since we are fogging basically every turn, we should be able to keep him alive for a period of time that seems worthwhile to me. AND SINCE our opponent boards out all their removal, he just might last longer on the table. Drawing 2 every turn would really be nice. Maybe board him in and remove the last Negate or maybe a Divination- whatever you feel comfortable with. I wouldn't bother using his milling ability at all. He's just there to draw you an extra card every turn(and gets harder to kill of course)
Only Fog itself, not the other fogs, will prevent your Planeswalkers from dying.
Other decks like this need to either draw multiple cards per turn, or cantrip/flashback their lifegain and prevention effects.
Ah, yes. Good point. So Jace wouldn't last long enough to be worth while. I started to think that his 5 mana cost would probably disrupt the game plan of keeping your Maze going anyhow. Playing Jace would stall your searching/Maze ability for the turn and playing Jace way late in the game wouldn't be all that helpful.
I saw the Prism addition in someone's list a page or so back and decided to try it out, I like it so far. There are some things I think need to be changed.
The divination's were put the in place of the mainboarded negates, I never felt good casting them and often just held them as a bluff. The Hybridization is for Blood Baron, or any problem creature like that. Before I moved the local meta was heavy with them. The Notion Thief and Slaughter Games are there until the event or I find something more appropriate.
Any thoughts or suggestions? This will be the first time I've played Paper magic since Grand Prix Detroit.
Don't run Elixir of Immortality, it's really overrated. Turn that into a 4th Detention Sphere instead, you'll get much more mileage out of it.
I'd also look into turning some of those one-offs in your sideboard into two-offs, or turning them into other cards. The deck REALLY needs to be consistent in getting it's sideboard cards, you can't run one-offs and expect them to have any real effect on the match.
Also, mainboard the Divinations, sideboard the Negates.
M:tG Cribbs just did a bunch of videos on youtube using John Torrez's list. I watched the first couple game and he didn't do very well at all. I don't think he understood the deck and match ups very well.
2x Azorius Guildgate
2x Boros Guildgate
2x Dimir Guildgate
2x Golgari Guildgate
2x Gruul Guildgate
2x Izzet Guildgate
2x Orzhov Guildgate
2x Rakdos Guildgate
2x Selesnya Guildgate
2x Simic Guildgate
2x Breeding Pool
1x Temple Garden
4x Maze's End
4x Fog
4x Riot Control
4x Defend the Hearth
4x Druid's Deliverance
Other Spells
4x Gatecreeper Vine
4x Courser of Kruphix
4x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
4x Urban Evolution
1x Cyclonic Rift
You lose the ability to board wipe, but gain blockers and acceleration towards your wincon. With 16 fogs, the board wipes always seemed superfluous anyway. Kiora gives you a nice alt wincon, and the 1-of Cyclonic Rift is at least some protection from Pithing Needle ruining your plan in game 1 (you know, just in case someone crazy maindecks one). Also... pseudo board-wipe.
Keep in mind this is a very derivative idea for the deck. You're abandoning the control aspects of the deck in order to turn it into a focused combo deck. It's a very risky idea, but it's not bad.
With that said to protect myself, Aidoneus' list would be a jumping off point for any testing. Goldfish / test the deck to see how fast you can win with it. Knowing the average amount of turns the Accelerated list can win in is a good measurement if the idea has merit or not. After that is determined, we can start worrying about fitting in things so we don't die horribly (I know right off the bat not running boardwipes means we're soft to Fanatic of Mogis and Gray Merchant, b/c they can build up devotion no problem).
Other things:
Merciless Eviction is better than Fated Retribution most of the time, and especially as a one-of in the maindeck. It has less mana restrictions, costs 1 less, and has multiple modes. I'd run both as one-ofs if I had room, though. They're both good.
Bant shocks for the Accelerated version would be a good addition, as would an increase of Bant guildgates if you don't want to do that. This is one of the few times I'd be okay with going down to one-ofs of gates, because of the focused color requirements.
I'd buy Kioras at $15. If she goes down to 10 and below I'd be surprised.
tl;dr Test the list thoroughly and get back to us. It has merit.
Aside from countless mistakes I made as a new player to the deck, I think the deck has some merits. Gatecreeper, Courser, and Kiora did great at speeding my up draws, especially against Esper. When I had them in play together, they really did some work. However, against black the Courser sucked up all the removal they had (which was expected). I made a few mistakes which cost me the win against them. Rakdos Return was the card that destroyed me against Grixis midrange. I had the card draw and fogs to stop their dragons and demons, but 2 Rakdos Returns crippled me. If I had more experience with the deck I probably would have sided in the Negates, but I didn't. Definitely winnable but I needed a better sideboarding plan. My last match against GR was downright embarrassing. The deck lacked card draw and I couldn't keep enough fogs in my hand. All it took was one turn for him to Bring out a Polukranos, give it haste with Xenagos god, and then using Xenagos walker to power out a Dragon and hit me for 22 damage in one turn.
I decided to put together a creature-less version like Allusion talked about, and I'd like to get some feedback on it.
Cheat The Maze
75 cards, 15 sideboard
2 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Azorius Guildgate
2 Selesnya Guildgate
2 Simic Guildgate
4 Maze's End
2 Dimir Guildgate
2 Cyclonic Rift
1 Merciless Eviction
3 Divination
4 Defend the Hearth
4 Urban Evolution
4 Druid's Deliverance
4 Fog
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
4 Riot Control
2 Elixir of Immortality
1 Merciless Eviction
2 Gainsay
2 Wear // Tear
3 Negate
3 Crackling Perimeter
2 Pithing Needle
I upped the fogs to 16, added 2 more Urban Evolutions and another Divination for card draw (which I thought was lacking), and added 2 Cyclonic Rifts to the main board to deal with devotion strategies. If black strategies wane, I would like to add in Courser and Gatecreeper again to help play lands every turn, but right now it's probably not worth it. Thoughts on the new build?
I've just played a PTQ here in Argentina with this deck, and ended dropping at 3-4, mostly because of bad beats (3-land keeper, not seeing a land on the following 6 turns and stuff. I lost to SELESNYA AGGRO, drawing 2 and 4 fog effects respectively on each game). The last version of the list I got was the following:
2 Azorius Guildgate
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
2 Simic Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Dimir Guildgate
4 Maze's End
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Defend the Hearth
4 Druid's Deliverance
4 Riot Control
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Detention Sphere
2 Merciless Eviction
4 Urban Evolution
3 Prophetic Prism
3 Gainsay
2 Negate
2 Bow of Nylea
2 Revoke Existence
3 Crackling Perimeter
3 Turn // Burn
The plan is super straightforward: Try to survive until you get your maze online and win. Focus on that and only that.
Prophetic prism is a cheap cantrip replacing Divination mostly because it costs 1 mana less for 1 card less, and can be cast on turn 3 rather than turn 4, also allowing to fix hands that would be an instant mulligan in other situations. Getting WW or the missing U for a Verdict is key, and there are hands that are REALLY good, but the lands don't help them at all.
On the sideboard, Gainsay lets you get through the disruption of UW Control and Monoblue devotion on Games 2-3 (Believe me when I say that Monoblue devotion is a 95-5 pre-side -5 being the error margyn of not getting screwed or not drawing a fog at all-, 80-20 post-side -depending on how fast you can put a maze and/or a Perimeter Online).
The split card is simply awesome. Killing Mutavaults and gods alike, fogging and Obzedat and Wrathing on your turn, or simply just Turning a Frostburn Weird into a dead creature after pumping just once (remember, becomes a 0/1 with +1/-1 until end of turn).
The matchs I won:
Monoblue devotion: 2-0
Orzhov Midrange: 2-0 (easier than Monoblack, not having Gary around)
UW Control: 2-1 (not drawing a single removal for needle, killed by BLIND OBEDIENCE after getting all 10 Gates and the Maze.
The Matchs I lost:
Selesnya Aggo: 1-2 (as explained above)
Monolack Devotion: 0-2 (second game he mulled 5, and I ended the game with a perimeter, 3 Gates and 2 Shocklands, against an Erebos, Gary, Demon, Connections, and stuff)
RG Monsters: 1-2 (Flesh and Dragon did the thing)
Naya Midrange: 0-2 (drew 3 lands on both games)
Thoughts on Kiora: It's Really good, but she doesn't have place on this deck. It's more a SuperFriend's Oriented card. and you get no real advantage of it in most games (except vs. Control decks, where you win anyway, and a Win-more is not necessary).
Cyclonic Rift is the nuts. I used to run 1-off, and I think it is about time for it to go back to the 75. Maybe 2 copies. It does a great job keeping Devotion at minimum, and is an instant-speed bounce for Pack rat instead of losing a Fog on the first turns.
Thoughts on Far // Away against Monoblack?
Why isn't Gatekeeper Vine a better cantrip than Prophetic Prism? I understand he's not much of a chump, but it seems like he fetches, thins, blocks, and delays needing to spend a fog. In a way, the same can be said for our two centaur choices. Courser of Kruphix demands instant removal from your opponent, insta-plays a land nearly 50% of the time in a 28-land deck, and does more than chump at 1GG. Saruli Gatekeepers doesn't thin, but the 7-life swing can mean a lot, plus the ability to force a second creature onto the table before you Wrath.
There's nothing new in the deck, per se, except the 16th fog. Am I missing a change that makes this a vast improvement over the previous deck that used Far // Away and Ral Zerek for removal?
Julio, did you play 61 cards?
Also I have some more questions/thoughts:
a) Why do you use so many sb slots to counters? Do you side them in too many matches besides Ux Control and MUD?
b) Any idea to get our RG matchup better? I find them one of the most difficult matches (Ruric Thar, both Xenagos and Dragons with haste)... I may try Blind obedience...
c)I like turn/burn very much when facing obzedats. I believe we can potentially side them in against BW, UWB (ephara decks) and maybe MBD.
d)I just don't see in which scenario Far/Away could help us against monoblack. I think that the key to this match is to side in 2 slaughter games and 2 Cyclonic Rift (and side out some fogs). If one of these 4 survives the heavy discards we can potentially win the game.
Oh, I am the one that played the Maze end "try hard" on the PTQ
XWU KCI Eggs
XBRG Lantern Control
I admit to being new to the deck and the decision making can be tough sometimes with this deck. I bombed out bad Friday night with a 0-4 record. I did in fact learn some new things and that's really why I went out to play it. Gotta start somewhere. One of my games drove me crazy as I went 8 turns missing land drops and never finding my maze! Ridiculous for a deck with this many lands but that's how it went. (Deck is sleeved, super-shuffled like you all do). I also found myself numerous times dying in need of either a board sweep or a fog for one more turn or looking for my maze's end etc. So today, I played with a newly main-boarded Diabolic Tutor (1). Totally awesome! I strongly suggest testing it out! It makes for the 5th supreme verdict or the 5 fog or the 5th Riot Control or the 5th Maze's end etc etc. It replaces itself, thins the deck by one and now you have what your dying for and not drawing into. Today I tutored for a much needed Verdict in one game and Tutored for a much needed Maze in another game. You'll never be depressed having it in your hand. And if you never draw the one-of tutor, then you will probably already have what you need in your hand instead.
So for Beanwarrior's list I did:
-2 negate
-1 bow
+2 Divination (as beanwarrior was already discussing at one point)
+1 Diabolic Tutor
Back when New Phyrexia and Innistrad block were legal, I played the B/W Sorin/Sorin's Vengeance combo deck. Even though there were 4-of's of the needed combo pieces, there were too many times when I never saw them. So I main-boarded 2 Diabolic Tutors to that deck and suddenly went Top4 twice and one 1st Place (won From the Vault Realms!) and then the deck rotated! Those 2 tutors made all the difference in the world which inspired me to try it out here.
I'll keep playing and see how it goes but the tutor is really awesome here. I mean, how upset would you be to have it in your hand? Go get another verdict and scrub the table with it! Grab that much needed Riot Control! ETC!!! Towards late game you can tutor for that extra gate to keep in your hand and win a turn earlier-
Otherwise, loving the deck as it's fun to play and your opponent keeps counting the gates on the table. We'll see how much better I might get with it.
Trying out Diabolic Tutor seems not a bad idea but let me tell you that it cost 2BB. Maze's End Decks runs around the BANT (WUG) shell effectively which means you must have enough black source for it. Would you mind showing your deck list involving the tutor?
A friend and I were also experiencing the same thing yesterday and we call it the "Durrdle" effect. We were trying to figure out if there was anything that could help allievate that problem where you have all the right parts but missing that one thing to win either Maze's End, Fog effect, or sweeper. I completely agree with you in trying diabolic tutor. Probably replacing a divination for it (2 remaining in the deck).
H/W List http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=112656
This deck is really fog, which in the current standard is G/W. Blue happens to lend to board clearing so I guess you could consider the deck Bant. However, the mana base provides 10 sources of each at color at a minimum and you aren't always going to be casting Diabolic Tutor on turn 5.
Not trying to pick your post apart, just want to make sure people don't think the deck has to stick to two or three colors to win.
The worst enemy of this deck is itself.
XWU KCI Eggs
XBRG Lantern Control
Indeed 61 cards. I was thinking which card to cut, and I couldn't figure it before handing decklist, so I ran 61 :P.
About your questhoughts (?):
a)Negates comes in against Red strategies too, being able to hit from Skullcrack to Assemble the Legion, apart from Burning Earth, Hammer of Purphoros, Late Planeswalkers like Domri and Xenagos, Flesh (Which is one of the main problems against RG Monsters pre-board, only being "foggable" by Riot Control), Also comes against Orzhov Midrange and *Maybe* MonoBlack Devotion, dealing with Connections, discard spells from each deck, and Elspeth and Revoke Existence from Orzhov Midrange.
b)Blind Obedience can be a card to consider. Most problems from Rx decks are Hasty critters, especially with the new Xenagos around. It also pings our opponents when we have spare mana, and get some lifegain in the meantime.
c)Turn//Burn can be Maindeck material. It is MVP against any deck that runs mutavaults, being able to kill them insted of using a fog when they plan to race us in order to start spending fogs. It also kills little Pack Rats, at times making little 2*1s fogging a Rat and Killing another (It loses the subtype Rat, nerfing the others).
d)Far//Away has the same reasoning of Turn//Burn. The cheap part turns a removal spell against Rat tokens, and fusing it can lessen their devotion if they are not on the Rat plan (Bouncing Erebos -maybe?- and forcing to sac a Nightveil Specter are 8 life less in the race when responding to a Gary (counting the 4 life we lose against the 4 life they would gain, in case we have a perimeter Online). Slaughter Games is not an option in my opinion. a 4-mana spell, conditioned to be cast in case they are not racing us with rats, potentially being discarded, is not a strong choice. I'd rather go with Cyclonic Rift in that case. Overloaded or not, it gets much more value, Bouncing Connections if needed to prevent them from getting ahead on the card advantage race.
And yes, I figured that :D. How did that version went? Any thoughts comparing the "Tryhard Removal" Version agains the TurboFog?
However there was another mazes end in the top 4 (my friend with esper beat him for 1st place). He was running Prophet of Kruphix, Rev, gate creaper vine and both blue and green gatekeepers instead of 8 more fog cards (he is at fog and Riot Control). He put up better results then me so I can't say his is worse.
Only drew Kiora twice, once was ripped by thoughtseize and the other time I had no blue mana so I can't say she is bad yet.
I like the idea of running the Diabolic Tutor.
I"m not giving up on the deck yet due to one bad night of luck. Heck, the deck I ran at our "city" tournament just poo'd all up on itself the next day and THAT'S a proven deck (MBD splashing red for Rakdos's Return and Dreadbore, no removal all day weee).
All in all, a REALLY frustrating week in magic. But hey, at least the lego movie was actually pretty good.
Standard
RBUGrixis Tutelage
BR Devoid Beatdown
Modern
RAffinity
B 8 Rack
Legacy
0 Dredge
EDH
RBBladewing's Zombie Dragons
BUGRW Sliver Legion's Overrun
Responding to the black mana question here @Xanthic and others-
I did not have a problem with getting or already having the black mana needed to cast Diabolic Tutor. You wont always have it on turn 5 and in my opinion, Tutor would be awesome on turn 5 if possible, but in reality, it would probably be Turn 6 to leave up a fog mana or Turn 7 to leave up 1G for other fog effects. I did not change the mana base from BeanWarrior's GP list so it is still 2 each of all gates, (3 selesnya) and the 3 shocks he included- Breeding Pool, Hallowed Fountain and Temple Garden.
Although Negate is sometimes needed, it tended to be dead in my hand for quite a while. So I replaced 1 negate with the Diabolic Tutor and 1 negate for a Divination and moved the bow to the SB for a second Divination leaving just 1 negate in the MB. If we went with 2 Diabolic Tutor instead, then I might be a tad concerned about the current mana base. I agree that a little more testing is needed with the 1 Tutor/mana base but I'm not that good at totally tinkering with an already good deck. I can in fact say that I used the 1 Tutor more than Negate in 4 rounds and was excited to do so. I didn't have any mana issue since there are a total of 8 cards in the deck that grant black mana AND you will probably be going 7 opening cards in hand plus possibly 5-6 more turns (draws). The tutor should be seen as mid-game to slighly past mid-game.
@Magna Golem
"Game 2 found out first hand how AWFUL whelming wave actually is, really thought it would be better but yea..... "
Ya know, I've always loved bounce effects but these days there are just too many ETB effects out there to put something back into their hand only to watch them cast it again on second main phase. Like, Whelming Wave would be horrible against Gary obviously! etc etc. Just too many etb's in my opinion. Some players here love Cyclonic Rift but I'm afraid of the same issue- being dead against ETB type creatures. Thanks for your report though!
'78 CB750F, '09 CBR600RR
Other decks like this need to either draw multiple cards per turn, or cantrip/flashback their lifegain and prevention effects.
Ah, yes. Good point. So Jace wouldn't last long enough to be worth while. I started to think that his 5 mana cost would probably disrupt the game plan of keeping your Maze going anyhow. Playing Jace would stall your searching/Maze ability for the turn and playing Jace way late in the game wouldn't be all that helpful.
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
3 Simic Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Dimir Guildgate
3 Selesnya Guildgate
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
1 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Azorius Guildgate
4 Maze's End
3 Prophetic Prism
1 Elixir of Immortality
Enchantments: 3
3 Detention Sphere
Instants/Sorceries: 28
2 Merciless Eviction
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Urban Evolution
4 Riot control
4 Defend the Hearth
2 Negate
4 Fog
4 Druid's Deliverance
1 Quicken
I saw the Prism addition in someone's list a page or so back and decided to try it out, I like it so far. There are some things I think need to be changed.
Maybe something like:
-1 Selesnya Guildgate
-1 Simic Guildgate
-1 Urban Evolution
-1 Quicken
+1 Temple Garden
+1 Hallowed Fountain
+1 Rakdos Guildgate
+1 Fated Retribution (Maybe, I'm always on the fence about a few things.)
The sideboard is as follows:
2 Rapid Hybridization
1 Notion Thief
2 Essence Scatter
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Negate
3 Crackling Perimiter
1 Slaughter Games
2 Divination
The divination's were put the in place of the mainboarded negates, I never felt good casting them and often just held them as a bluff. The Hybridization is for Blood Baron, or any problem creature like that. Before I moved the local meta was heavy with them. The Notion Thief and Slaughter Games are there until the event or I find something more appropriate.
Any thoughts or suggestions? This will be the first time I've played Paper magic since Grand Prix Detroit.
I'd also look into turning some of those one-offs in your sideboard into two-offs, or turning them into other cards. The deck REALLY needs to be consistent in getting it's sideboard cards, you can't run one-offs and expect them to have any real effect on the match.
Also, mainboard the Divinations, sideboard the Negates.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=maze's end&search_sort=video_date_uploaded