I think biomancer is sweet with MoW but the real question is can this deck be as competitive as the mono U or UB ones?
I think the metagame is very diverse. The developers did something very interesting this time. They asked the players to truly find balance. What do I mean by that. Well inni to rtr standard was a lot of mana fixing and three color decks, also it was mostly junk decks. Not BGW decks, but junk in the traditional meaning, as in most decks more "good stuff" decks that just assembled the best cards and then mana fixed them as an after thought.
However now we have no core set lands, we have limited fixing. Also a lot of powerful theros cards are looking for us to exploit very specific synergies and interactions. So we need to find balance, in our mana, in the power vs. consistency of our decks, in our deck focus. It really is a good time to play standard!!
I only tried to help because I really like your build and I think it might actually be something big. A bunch of pros have already talked about trying to do some sort of tokens brew with spear of Heliod. Honestly I think biomancer has way more cool interactions and is harder to get rid of, not to mention he can do damage on his own. I believe the simic archetype has a real chance as long as it's trim and efficient. that's what simic does, makes life more efficient, right?
Also you'll notice that 5th turn play I mentioned with giant growth and wave master. If my rules hemisphere of my brain is working, you can cast wave master, hold swan song, and then when they say that they have no responses put giant growth on the stack on top of it. I'm pretty sure it works. Now that's what I call insurance, which makes sense since blue is he ultimate insurance color.
Forget muta vault, it belongs in an incremental damage aggro build, a deck with mass removal, or as a battalion trigger, or a very fast aggro build that seeks to start fast then trade up top. You need blue mana and you also inspired me to try the devotion land even they I thought it sucked, since I figured it made sense as we are into a bit of ramp already.
I'm glad you like giant growth, it can also be good insurance when they try to mortars a biomancer. Also realize that giant growth and frostburn weird have some funny synergy with prime speaker. Often this deck might run out of gas. Or maybe they anger of gods your tokens. 4/1 frostburn or any creature with simic charm or giant growth on it then cast zegana and we can get right back in the game. not to mention the abuse one can create with a big cloudfin or biomancer, that's just a lot of cards and it could really work well.
Evidently this same kinda idea won the pro tour and it seems it's essential that the deck have atleast 2 jace.
I think the metagame is very diverse. The developers did something very interesting this time. They asked the players to truly find balance. What do I mean by that. Well inni to rtr standard was a lot of mana fixing and three color decks, also it was mostly junk decks. Not BGW decks, but junk in the traditional meaning, as in most decks more "good stuff" decks that just assembled the best cards and then mana fixed them as an after thought.
However now we have no core set lands, we have limited fixing. Also a lot of powerful theros cards are looking for us to exploit very specific synergies and interactions. So we need to find balance, in our mana, in the power vs. consistency of our decks, in our deck focus. It really is a good time to play standard!!
I only tried to help because I really like your build and I think it might actually be something big. A bunch of pros have already talked about trying to do some sort of tokens brew with spear of Heliod. Honestly I think biomancer has way more cool interactions and is harder to get rid of, not to mention he can do damage on his own. I believe the simic archetype has a real chance as long as it's trim and efficient. that's what simic does, makes life more efficient, right?
Also you'll notice that 5th turn play I mentioned with giant growth and wave master. If my rules hemisphere of my brain is working, you can cast wave master, hold swan song, and then when they say that they have no responses put giant growth on the stack on top of it. I'm pretty sure it works. Now that's what I call insurance, which makes sense since blue is he ultimate insurance color.
Forget muta vault, it belongs in an incremental damage aggro build, a deck with mass removal, or as a battalion trigger, or a very fast aggro build that seeks to start fast then trade up top. You need blue mana and you also inspired me to try the devotion land even they I thought it sucked, since I figured it made sense as we are into a bit of ramp already.
I'm glad you like giant growth, it can also be good insurance when they try to mortars a biomancer. Also realize that giant growth and frostburn weird have some funny synergy with prime speaker. Often this deck might run out of gas. Or maybe they anger of gods your tokens. 4/1 frostburn or any creature with simic charm or giant growth on it then cast zegana and we can get right back in the game. not to mention the abuse one can create with a big cloudfin or biomancer, that's just a lot of cards and it could really work well.
Evidently this same kinda idea won the pro tour and it seems it's essential that the deck have atleast 2 jace.
Thanks again man!
If you find that deck list, will you post it here?
I know, I know... You may be thinking WTF? But hear me out...
It's a 6/6 for 5, efficient as hell. He can block some of the biggest creatures out there, but the drawback of bouncing a creature back to the hand is tough.... Unless you need more creatures! Or you need to beef up your creatures!!
If there is two Master Biomancers on the field, one with 2 extra +1/+1 counters on it, one with none, return the one no counters to the hand, then replay it, and it ends up with 4 +1/+1 counters! That's 10 +1/+1 counters for any creature that comes into play.
Out there could also be a MoW, but maybe 1 or 2 tokens have died from blocking/attacking, or now there is more blue out there for devotion, like a Jace is now on the field or a Biomancer is now on the field when he wasn't there before. Return MoW, get some more Elementals or get some more and pump the elementals even bigger!
If the Biomancer is out, and another creature like Nightveil Specter is out there from before Biomancer hit the board, return the Specter, play it again, and now he's a bigger threat.
The Prime Speaker becomes pretty interesting when turn 5 was a Species Gorger and turn 6 is the Prime Speaker... Hand gets completely refreshed! The Shrine will help cast her.
I think that this doesn't have to be a 'Blue Devotion' only deck, but with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx it can be a Simic devotion deck...
Another thought would be Nylea's Desciple and Species Gorger. So If the Desciple is on the field, she can be bounced back to the hand, then recast for more life gain.
A lot of these cards should have strong ETB effects, or benefit from other cards having strong ETB effects.
Basically the same list but no curse of the swine since for its effect it's expensive and cyclonic rift is just better. I'm gonna guess that maybe prime speaker should go for bident of thassa since we really can't go over cmc4 without straying from our central plan of getting devotion and optimizing plays with master biomancer and master of waves. Bident gives double devotion and can draw a ton of cards with tokens and cloudfin raptor.
If fathom Mage were our cmc4 draw card then species gorger could fit in, because at very least he could block, return himself, recast and pump up evolve cloudfin and fathom Mage, he could also return fathom Mage and recast many times with biomancer in play. However I'm gonna stick with the pros and say that bident has a less drawn out plan in that right after it's cast you can swing and draw cards, also it's nice against aggro which can force there 2/2 into your army of 4/3.
Basically the same list but no curse of the swine since for its effect it's expensive and cyclonic rift is just better. I'm gonna guess that maybe prime speaker should go for bident of thassa since we really can't go over cmc4 without straying from our central plan of getting devotion and optimizing plays with master biomancer and master of waves. Bident gives double devotion and can draw a ton of cards with tokens and cloudfin raptor.
If fathom Mage were our cmc4 draw card then species gorger could fit in, because at very least he could block, return himself, recast and pump up evolve cloudfin and fathom Mage, he could also return fathom Mage and recast many times with biomancer in play. However I'm gonna stick with the pros and say that bident has a less drawn out plan in that right after it's cast you can swing and draw cards, also it's nice against aggro which can force there 2/2 into your army of 4/3.
I'm diggin this.. A LOT.
What I really like about this list and what was an unexpected benefit is the interaction between Master Biomancer and Frostburn Weird. If he enters the battlefield after Biomancer he becomes a 3/6.. He's getting up there to the power level of Aetherling, for a 2 blue. That's really efficient and the fact that he provides more devotion.
I agree about the Species Gorger. He would be fun for more long drawn out games... but for our overall goal here, I'm with you.
After starting to do some playtesting with Prime Speaker Zegana I really REALLY like her! The Shrine should help cast her our deck here. Plus I don't have any Jace's and I'm not gonna give up my Elspeths to get him right now. Ha!
I think that Nightveil Specter is very important to the deck. My concern is more along the lines of him adding to our devotion. It becomes important for Thassa to be a creature by turn 4-5. This way when PSZ comes into play, we can get 5+ cards. I also think that 3 is doable because we want her in the opening hand as much as possible, and when we scry, we can put one on the bottom of the deck.
You provide a good point about the Bident and I believe it's a must. It's going to be the best option for card draw, and adds to devotion. 2 Bidents for now.
I think by using Nightveil Specter we can cut down on a land or two because the shrine will help cast the creatures.
Edit: I also added in one Overgrown Tomb. This may end up being two, but too often I think we'll be struggling to find that 3rd blue mana source to cast the Nightveil Specter so the Tomb allows us to still cast it without hurting our green mana sources.
What I really like about this list and what was an unexpected benefit is the interaction between Master Biomancer and Frostburn Weird. If he enters the battlefield after Biomancer he becomes a 3/6.. He's getting up there to the power level of Aetherling, for a 2 blue. That's really efficient and the fact that he provides more devotion.
I agree about the Species Gorger. He would be fun for more long drawn out games... but for our overall goal here, I'm with you.
After starting to do some playtesting with Prime Speaker Zegana I really REALLY like her! The Shrine should help cast her our deck here. Plus I don't have any Jace's and I'm not gonna give up my Elspeths to get him right now. Ha!
I think that Nightveil Specter is very important to the deck. My concern is more along the lines of him adding to our devotion. It becomes important for Thassa to be a creature by turn 4-5. This way when PSZ comes into play, we can get 5+ cards. I also think that 3 is doable because we want her in the opening hand as much as possible, and when we scry, we can put one on the bottom of the deck.
You provide a good point about the Bident and I believe it's a must. It's going to be the best option for card draw, and adds to devotion. 2 Bidents for now.
I think by using Nightveil Specter we can cut down on a land or two because the shrine will help cast the creatures.
I like your take on things. It's essentially just a more aggro take on my list. However I will say that in your list I would cut one nightveil and add one frostburn. I'm worried that having two nightveil in your starting hand and not getting three blue could screw you up.
Also I'm always wary of playing too many legends, with thassa I'm double worried since they can't kill her for us to cast the next one. However on the other hand she is such a powerhouse, I thought she was the worst god however once you play with her you quickly realize how good she is, hell even the scry is good. I can't believe dezani and the rest played 4 but I'm gonna take your lead and try 3.
I really don't think the deck needs to worry about creatures. I'm gonna keep giant growth as an extra insurance policy over hybridization, but I think rapid hybridization is also I really cheap efficient card for this type of deck as well.
Also cut muta or one shrine. With devotion decks you really gotta watch your mana.
Aaahhhhhh I can't wait till simic gets it's god. I think the only one mentioned by name so far is the izzet god keranos.
I like your take on things. It's essentially just a more aggro take on my list. However I will say that in your list I would cut one nightveil and add one frostburn. I'm worried that having two nightveil in your starting hand and not getting three blue could screw you up.
Also I'm always wary of playing too many legends, with thassa I'm double worried since they can't kill her for us to cast the next one. However on the other hand she is such a powerhouse, I thought she was the worst god however once you play with her you quickly realize how good she is, hell even the scry is good. I can't believe dezani and the rest played 4 but I'm gonna take your lead and try 3.
I really don't think the deck needs to worry about creatures. I'm gonna keep giant growth as an extra insurance policy over hybridization, but I think rapid hybridization is also I really cheap efficient card for this type of deck as well.
Also cut muta or one shrine. With devotion decks you really gotta watch your mana.
Aaahhhhhh I can't wait till simic gets it's god. I think the only one mentioned by name so far is the izzet god keranos.
I think 4 Thassa is better truthfully. Such a key cog and you can always scry extras away. Here is what I would run:
Got rid of omenspeaker and bident for more frost burn and use prime speaker for the later game card draw. Also added a simic charm. Just too good a card for this deck. Would run 4 if I could. No shrine since mana shouldnt be an issue with caratid and don't want to get stuck with a card that's not as helpful.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Got rid of omenspeaker and bident for more frost burn and use prime speaker for the later game card draw. Also added a simic charm. Just too good a card for this deck. Would run 4 if I could. No shrine since mana shouldnt be an issue with caratid and don't want to get stuck with a card that's not as helpful.
Like the theme of Simic Waves....or maybe it should be Seismic Waves:)...how has the mana been with these versions...enough blue for early drops and just enough green for Caryatid/charm too? or do you miss drops?
- the only real question I have is about running Slyvan Cartatid- Is it required? without it the mana base would be smoother and 8-10 green sources should be enough 70-80% of the time..no?
Prime speaker is sweet, but I like the perhaps Progentitor Mimic route....copying Waves or Biomancer could make quick work...or maybe just winmore.....
I like your take on things. It's essentially just a more aggro take on my list. However I will say that in your list I would cut one nightveil and add one frostburn. I'm worried that having two nightveil in your starting hand and not getting three blue could screw you up.
Also I'm always wary of playing too many legends, with thassa I'm double worried since they can't kill her for us to cast the next one. However on the other hand she is such a powerhouse, I thought she was the worst god however once you play with her you quickly realize how good she is, hell even the scry is good. I can't believe dezani and the rest played 4 but I'm gonna take your lead and try 3.
I really don't think the deck needs to worry about creatures. I'm gonna keep giant growth as an extra insurance policy over hybridization, but I think rapid hybridization is also I really cheap efficient card for this type of deck as well.
Also cut muta or one shrine. With devotion decks you really gotta watch your mana.
Aaahhhhhh I can't wait till simic gets it's god. I think the only one mentioned by name so far is the izzet god keranos.
Okay... Got off of work and went to my LGS to play a little. Got about 5 games in against a very fast aggro GW deck. Went 1-4 and too often I was on the defensive, and not offensive.
I see what you are saying about the Specter.... not having the 3rd blue mana to cast him and having him in the opening hand is worth a mulligan if we don't have the Sylvan Caryatid. 4 Frostburn Werid would be better against a more aggro build, while 2 Specters is more appropriate. Also, if we are not playing Tidebinder Mage, 4 are a must in the sideboard. I would've loved to drop it on turn 2 tonight to tap their Lion or VoR. GW doesn't have much in the way of removal to handle getting rid of the Mage.
I'm cutting Mutavault for another Island or another Shrine. I really think another dork, or Voyaging Satyr would help.
Rapid Hybridization may be sideboard for 4 Cyclonic Rift. The Shrine makes it easier to cast it's overload cost to send everything back to their hand, rather than killing one creature.
Got rid of omenspeaker and bident for more frost burn and use prime speaker for the later game card draw. Also added a simic charm. Just too good a card for this deck. Would run 4 if I could. No shrine since mana shouldnt be an issue with caratid and don't want to get stuck with a card that's not as helpful.
Getting rid of Omenspeaker is doable with a 4th Thassa. Omenspeaker becomes redundant with Thassa on the board.
Like the theme of Simic Waves....or maybe it should be Seismic Waves:)...how has the mana been with these versions...enough blue for early drops and just enough green for Caryatid/charm too? or do you miss drops?
- the only real question I have is about running Slyvan Cartatid- Is it required? without it the mana base would be smoother and 8-10 green sources should be enough 70-80% of the time..no?
Prime speaker is sweet, but I like the perhaps Progentitor Mimic route....copying Waves or Biomancer could make quick work...or maybe just winmore.....
I like running 3 of the caratids. Hex proof 3 toughness mana dork is pretty good and helps cast stuff specter gets. May be able to switch a forest though with a mutavault or even a shrine with caratid in the deck. I thought about mimic but it seems excessive. If you have a MoW and he sticks you already won. Mimic doesn't change that. Haven't done much play testing though. I am focusing on a UB version for a SCG open this weekend. UB is more versatile to me with the thoughtsieze and much better removal. But this deck I think had a lot of promise. I think that it's missing something but can't quite put my finger on it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Like the theme of Simic Waves....or maybe it should be Seismic Waves:)...how has the mana been with these versions...enough blue for early drops and just enough green for Caryatid/charm too? or do you miss drops?
- the only real question I have is about running Slyvan Cartatid- Is it required? without it the mana base would be smoother and 8-10 green sources should be enough 70-80% of the time..no?
Prime speaker is sweet, but I like the perhaps Progentitor Mimic route....copying Waves or Biomancer could make quick work...or maybe just winmore.....
Caryatid is good because he blocks bears and gets the biomancer out on turn 3, but if we have no biomancer, rather a MoW then MoW isn't that effective.
The thing is that turn 2 is the turning point... Caryatid, or Frostburn? If we run Mystics, Thassa can be out turn 2. Then on Turn 3 hopefully we can put down a Biomancer, or Raptor and evolve it with a Caryatid or frostburn...
I like running 3 of the caratids. Hex proof 3 toughness mana dork is pretty good and helps cast stuff specter gets. May be able to switch a forest though with a mutavault or even a shrine with caratid in the deck. I thought about mimic but it seems excessive. If you have a MoW and he sticks you already won. Mimic doesn't change that. Haven't done much play testing though. I am focusing on a UB version for a SCG open this weekend. UB is more versatile to me with the thoughtsieze and much better removal. But this deck I think had a lot of promise. I think that it's missing something but can't quite put my finger on it.
Edit: I think what this deck is missing is an early threat at the two cc spot or a good removal outside of simic charm or rift. There isn't anything that can handle a Fleecemane Lion or VoR without putting a token into play.
Edit: I think what this deck is missing is an early threat at the two cc spot or a good removal outside of simic charm or rift. There isn't anything that can handle a Fleecemane Lion or VoR without putting a token into play.
Yes, yes, yes. We know the mono blue and UB ones are sick. Obviously UB guarantees that you have the right mana for nightveil, and thoughtseize and ashiok can both be absolutely huge against certain decks. But if you didn't read the thread this is to discuss UG master of waves deck not UB.
I am going to make comment anyway. You don't need that many responsive spells. The master of waves deck is in essence a midrange creature deck with a lot of vertical synergy. Only 2 thoughtseize, 2 far //away, and 2 cyclonic rift are enough. this type of deck needs creatures or else it can't go anywhere. Ashiok or jace possibly can win the game without creatures but most of the time it won't happen. So 24 creatures minimum is a must, also look at the pro lists, some only have 1 cyclonic rift.
Also scry doesn't make a damn difference, you can scry away something and draw it still, You can have 2 in your starting hand still.........
I mean in terms of pure power yea no kidding thassa was undervalued till this tournament, she is badass. But I think 4 is too much.
Yes, yes, yes. We know the mono blue and UB ones are sick. Obviously UB guarantees that you have the right mana for nightveil, and thoughtseize and ashiok can both be absolutely huge against certain decks. But if you didn't read the thread this is to discuss UG master of waves deck not UB.
I am going to make comment anyway. You don't need that many responsive spells. The master of waves deck is in essence a midrange creature deck with a lot of vertical synergy. Only 2 thoughtseize, 2 far //away, and 2 cyclonic rift are enough. this type of deck needs creatures or else it can't go anywhere. Ashiok or jace possibly can win the game without creatures but most of the time it won't happen. So 24 creatures minimum is a must, also look at the pro lists, some only have 1 cyclonic rift.
Also scry doesn't make a damn difference, you can scry away something and draw it still, You can have 2 in your starting hand still.........
I mean in terms of pure power yea no kidding thassa was undervalued till this tournament, she is badass. But I think 4 is too much.
Couple things. Yes i read the title of the thread. My list was posted as a direct answer to a question. Sorry if that offended you. As far as the creature base I felt that I would rather draw a thoughtsieze or a far/away than a judges familiar. Watching the mirror matches those guys were dying for a rift not a familiar or raptor. And copying a list won't win anything. I expect a LOT of hate and mirror matches and need things to protect my MoW like thoughtsiezeing that verdict or or detention sphere or even bouncing MoW with far/away. I will still stick with 4 Thassa but if I can get my hands on a couple more tide benders i will probably replace a card or two with them. Ashiok may not make my final cuts either.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Okay, after playtesting again and again, I really want to add the Prophet of Kruphix back in. With Prime Speaker Zagana in the deck, I don't want to be tapped out after I just refill my hand during their turn. I see it as too important to have available mana during their turn. Flashing in multiple creatures during their turn is invaluable. Especially if it's MoW. I also think that Rapid Hybridization is gonna have to go into the sideboard. It's going to be good against decks that run Desecration Demon and Stormbreath Dragon but not against a deck with a bunch of smaller creatures. So by adding back in Prophet of KruphixAetherize becomes more viable, and so does a 3rd Cylconic Rift.
With how the deck is right now, we have 3 turn 1 plays, land, land Raptor, or Scry land. If we add back in Elvish Mystic it gives us better turn 1 drops, and we can either drop Thassa turn 2, or scry land and Omenspeaker or Sylvan Caryatid or Frostburn Weird. Mystic gives us much better starts to the game, and can set up turn 3 Prophets, Biomancer, or MoW. Frostburn Weird and Nightveil Specter are not good together in this deck without having a second color to cast them.
The other card I'd say that I would like try is Wasteland Viper because he evloves the Raptor and makes our opponent much less likely to block. Also, with the bident, forcing them to attack into the viper can take out one of their fatties. With Giant Growth, or Simic Charm on the Viper, he survives, while some of their bigger creatures die.
The original idea for this deck was for all of the creatures to be very influential on each other. That's why I do like Vaporkin a lot. When MoW is on the board, he becomes a decent threat for 2cc. He also can evolve the raptor, after he's already been evolved once.
I'm gonna keep plugging and playtesting. but There is a ton of great ideas in this thread.. but the deck in it's current state I think is too defensive and slow when it needs to have drop 2-3 threats by turn 3.
I like Aetherize in combination with the Bident. Also does 4 Thoughtsize seem like too much? 3 seems pretty solid. Also, no Hero's Downfall?
I have considered aetherize for sure. Probably a SB card though. I am thinking 4 thoughtsieze may be too much at least MD given its limited use later on. If I can get my hands on a couple more tide-benders ill probably replace one of them. I love heroes downfall but the 2B in the casting cost is too tough.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Okay, after playtesting again and again, I really want to add the Prophet of Kruphix back in. With Prime Speaker Zagana in the deck, I don't want to be tapped out after I just refill my hand during their turn. I see it as too important to have available mana during their turn. Flashing in multiple creatures during their turn is invaluable. Especially if it's MoW. I also think that Rapid Hybridization is gonna have to go into the sideboard. It's going to be good against decks that run Desecration Demon and Stormbreath Dragon but not against a deck with a bunch of smaller creatures. So by adding back in Prophet of KruphixAetherize becomes more viable, and so does a 3rd Cylconic Rift.
With how the deck is right now, we have 3 turn 1 plays, land, land Raptor, or Scry land. If we add back in Elvish Mystic it gives us better turn 1 drops, and we can either drop Thassa turn 2, or scry land and Omenspeaker or Sylvan Caryatid or Frostburn Weird. Mystic gives us much better starts to the game, and can set up turn 3 Prophets, Biomancer, or MoW. Frostburn Weird and Nightveil Specter are not good together in this deck without having a second color to cast them.
The other card I'd say that I would like try is Wasteland Viper because he evloves the Raptor and makes our opponent much less likely to block. Also, with the bident, forcing them to attack into the viper can take out one of their fatties. With Giant Growth, or Simic Charm on the Viper, he survives, while some of their bigger creatures die.
The original idea for this deck was for all of the creatures to be very influential on each other. That's why I do like Vaporkin a lot. When MoW is on the board, he becomes a decent threat for 2cc. He also can evolve the raptor, after he's already been evolved once.
I'm gonna keep plugging and playtesting. but There is a ton of great ideas in this thread.. but the deck in it's current state I think is too defensive and slow when it needs to have drop 2-3 threats by turn 3.
I agree with the limited removal it has to be FAST. And with the other bigger threats like MoW prophet has a better chance of lasting a turn or two. I would rather take a deck like this to SCG open but it's not quite there yet. Wish we had a couple creatures like frost burn or specter that cost either U or G. Would help with the devotion part and smooth it out.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Couple things. Yes i read the title of the thread. My list was posted as a direct answer to a question. Sorry if that offended you. As far as the creature base I felt that I would rather draw a thoughtsieze or a far/away than a judges familiar. Watching the mirror matches those guys were dying for a rift not a familiar or raptor. And copying a list won't win anything. I expect a LOT of hate and mirror matches and need things to protect my MoW like thoughtsiezeing that verdict or or detention sphere or even bouncing MoW with far/away. I will still stick with 4 Thassa but if I can get my hands on a couple more tide benders i will probably replace a card or two with them. Ashiok may not make my final cuts either.
Wait wait wait. No ones offended except you it seems. I'm not making a comment about your deck being worse than some pro deck, don't let your behind get all sore. I'm also certainly not one to net deck, I've been playing since 4th edition and I don't believe in that nonsense.
I'm just making the comment that such a midrange creature deck that is relying on a lot of vertical synergy needs a good ratio of creatures to spells. Thoughtseize is badass, some people even believe that if you're playing black and don't have it, that your deck is fundamentally flawed. I advocate your BU build, it's obviously powerful, I'm just questioning how you can be consistent with less than 24 creatures.
Wait wait wait. No ones offended except you it seems. I'm not making a comment about your deck being worse than some pro deck, don't let your behind get all sore. I'm also certainly not one to net deck, I've been playing since 4th edition and I don't believe in that nonsense.
I'm just making the comment that such a midrange creature deck that is relying on a lot of vertical synergy needs a good ratio of creatures to spells. Thoughtseize is badass, some people even believe that if you're playing black and don't have it, that your deck is fundamentally flawed. I advocate your BU build, it's obviously powerful, I'm just questioning how you can be consistent with less than 24 creatures.
As usual something is lost via typing. I will clarify. I welcome comments on my deck. Criticism is key for improvement IMO. What annoyed me about your comment was the forum police-like crack about posting a UB in a UG thread. It was posted as an answer to a question and I felt that comment you made about it was unnecessary. Now back to business I agree that more creatures would be good but the difference in a mono color vice 2 color is quality of other options. Yeah tossing a familiar or a tide bender is great when your only other option is rapid hybridation or triton tactics but to me when you have options like doom blade or far/away it's hard to justify a creature for the sake of a creature. I am starting to agree with you that maybe 4 thoughtsieze and such is excessive but not sure of another option that is "better".
Edit: so what do you think of Shipwreck Singer ? Evolves raptor, has some evasion, helps devotion a bit, and would crush the mono U mirror match. Something like this:
As usual something is lost via typing. I will clarify. I welcome comments on my deck. Criticism is key for improvement IMO. What annoyed me about your comment was the forum police-like crack about posting a UB in a UG thread. It was posted as an answer to a question and I felt that comment you made about it was unnecessary. Now back to business I agree that more creatures would be good but the difference in a mono color vice 2 color is quality of other options. Yeah tossing a familiar or a tide bender is great when your only other option is rapid hybridation or triton tactics but to me when you have options like doom blade or far/away it's hard to justify a creature for the sake of a creature. I am starting to agree with you that maybe 4 thoughtsieze and such is excessive but not sure of another option that is "better".
Edit: so what do you think of Shipwreck Singer ? Evolves raptor, has some evasion, helps devotion a bit, and would crush the mono U mirror match. Something like this:
Aahhhh well I guess there was some sort of miscommunication. I didn't mean to offend you or police you. I actually like ashiok in this deck, but since jace is better and he gives double devotion I see why ashiok can't make the cut. I really like the sirens, they were a card they I really could get behind In a flavor and mechanic sort of way. They can also make utility creatures attack into your thassa which is funny, or wreck havoc on an army of tokens. This might sound weird but do you really think rift is better than far // away? For me far // away is cool since it can be cast at cmc 2,3, or 5. Cyclonic rift can only be casted at cmc 2 or 7, it's overall power is much greater but not as versatile in my opinion.
Very nice build though, definitely competitive. One last comment I will make though is that I don't think the 2 color builds can support more than 2 non mana producing lands. I would either choose between 2 muta, or 2 shrine, or 1 and 1. I don't think 3 or 4 can work. Think about it if there is 3 or more that means more than 10% of your lands can't produce colors In a devotion deck. In some of those pt decks they had 3 to 5 but that was doable since they were only one color.
Aahhhh well I guess there was some sort of miscommunication. I didn't mean to offend you or police you. I actually like ashiok in this deck, but since jace is better and he gives double devotion I see why ashiok can't make the cut. I really like the sirens, they were a card they I really could get behind In a flavor and mechanic sort of way. They can also make utility creatures attack into your thassa which is funny, or wreck havoc on an army of tokens. This might sound weird but do you really think rift is better than far // away? For me far // away is cool since it can be cast at cmc 2,3, or 5. Cyclonic rift can only be casted at cmc 2 or 7, it's overall power is much greater but not as versatile in my opinion.
Very nice build though, definitely competitive. One last comment I will make though is that I don't think the 2 color builds can support more than 2 non mana producing lands. I would either choose between 2 muta, or 2 shrine, or 1 and 1. I don't think 3 or 4 can work. Think about it if there is 3 or more that means more than 10% of your lands can't produce colors In a devotion deck. In some of those pt decks they had 3 to 5 but that was doable since they were only one color.
I think far/away and rift really do two different things for this deck. Far/away is more for creatures and even bouncing a MoW if I need too and rift is more of a troublesome permanent like plane walkers and enchanents like D-sphere. And of course an overloaded rift is GG in most cases. But I do see where you're coming from though and I did think about it. Going back to the pro decks though if just bouncing a single creature was key then they would have run voyage end I think. Testing hasn't given me issues with mutavaults and shrine but I think you may have a point but I think mutavault will win that battle since it's more useful in most matchups. As far as ashiok goes he's just not as good as is hoped in any matchup really. Vs control I'm much better off dropping a jace MA and really any other matchup id be better off with a specter or Thassa or even away side of far/away for my three drop.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Couple small changes. I really liked the utility of judges familiar when I watched the pt videos. Its decent for devotion, evasive, draws cards with bident down, and can be sacrificed to take care of any instants that will mess up our combo.
I found myself drawing 2 biomancer in every situation where I absolutely didn't want it. So I figured the biomancer is great but without zegana or other necessary synergies with biomancer besides MoW we can go down to 3.
Went up to three thassa, however I just can't bring myself to play 4 of any legend. My friend literally had to twist my arm to get me to play 4 st traft. I didn't regret it, but thing is feel st traft was a lightning rod since every deck had to play some thing to get rid of him. So thassa is really hard to get rid of, if I draw one when it's in play, or have 2 in my starting hand I'm just too annoyed, so 3 it is.
I will agree with tatebomb, now that this list doesn't have anything above cmc4 there is very little reason to use shrine, especially since this is not a pure devotion deck.
Couple small changes. I really liked the utility of judges familiar when I watched the pt videos. Its decent for devotion, evasive, draws cards with bident down, and can be sacrificed to take care of any instants that will mess up our combo.
I found myself drawing 2 biomancer in every situation where I absolutely didn't want it. So I figured the biomancer is great but without zegana or other necessary synergies with biomancer besides MoW we can go down to 3.
Went up to three thassa, however I just can't bring myself to play 4 of any legend. My friend literally had to twist my arm to get me to play 4 st traft. I didn't regret it, but thing is feel st traft was a lightning rod since every deck had to play some thing to get rid of him. So thassa is really hard to get rid of, if I draw one when it's in play, or have 2 in my starting hand I'm just too annoyed, so 3 it is.
I will agree with tatebomb, now that this list doesn't have anything above cmc4 there is very little reason to use shrine, especially since this is not a pure devotion deck.
Edit: on further testing memory adept sucks
I think 3 Thassa's is good. 4, in this deck is too much.
I have decided to go back more towards the original build. It has a smoother flow, imo, for the way I play, and how I feel comfortable playing.
I did switch the Cloudfin Raptor for Judge's Familiar. Tatebomb said it best, that what is missing is a creature that can be cast with Blue or Green. Just a 1 or a 2 drop that could be cast by either could really help this deck.
The Shrine helps get the overload on the Cyclonic Rift and the Prophet allows Aetherize and the Rift to be stronger. I just really like playing the Prophet, and then PSZ their turn to refill my hand during their turn.
We'll see how it goes though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Instagram - hate_bear
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I think the metagame is very diverse. The developers did something very interesting this time. They asked the players to truly find balance. What do I mean by that. Well inni to rtr standard was a lot of mana fixing and three color decks, also it was mostly junk decks. Not BGW decks, but junk in the traditional meaning, as in most decks more "good stuff" decks that just assembled the best cards and then mana fixed them as an after thought.
However now we have no core set lands, we have limited fixing. Also a lot of powerful theros cards are looking for us to exploit very specific synergies and interactions. So we need to find balance, in our mana, in the power vs. consistency of our decks, in our deck focus. It really is a good time to play standard!!
I only tried to help because I really like your build and I think it might actually be something big. A bunch of pros have already talked about trying to do some sort of tokens brew with spear of Heliod. Honestly I think biomancer has way more cool interactions and is harder to get rid of, not to mention he can do damage on his own. I believe the simic archetype has a real chance as long as it's trim and efficient. that's what simic does, makes life more efficient, right?
Also you'll notice that 5th turn play I mentioned with giant growth and wave master. If my rules hemisphere of my brain is working, you can cast wave master, hold swan song, and then when they say that they have no responses put giant growth on the stack on top of it. I'm pretty sure it works. Now that's what I call insurance, which makes sense since blue is he ultimate insurance color.
Forget muta vault, it belongs in an incremental damage aggro build, a deck with mass removal, or as a battalion trigger, or a very fast aggro build that seeks to start fast then trade up top. You need blue mana and you also inspired me to try the devotion land even they I thought it sucked, since I figured it made sense as we are into a bit of ramp already.
I'm glad you like giant growth, it can also be good insurance when they try to mortars a biomancer. Also realize that giant growth and frostburn weird have some funny synergy with prime speaker. Often this deck might run out of gas. Or maybe they anger of gods your tokens. 4/1 frostburn or any creature with simic charm or giant growth on it then cast zegana and we can get right back in the game. not to mention the abuse one can create with a big cloudfin or biomancer, that's just a lot of cards and it could really work well.
Evidently this same kinda idea won the pro tour and it seems it's essential that the deck have atleast 2 jace.
Thanks again man!
If you find that deck list, will you post it here?
I'll look into trying to score some Jaces.
What do you, or anyone else think about Species Gorger?
I know, I know... You may be thinking WTF? But hear me out...
It's a 6/6 for 5, efficient as hell. He can block some of the biggest creatures out there, but the drawback of bouncing a creature back to the hand is tough.... Unless you need more creatures! Or you need to beef up your creatures!!
If there is two Master Biomancers on the field, one with 2 extra +1/+1 counters on it, one with none, return the one no counters to the hand, then replay it, and it ends up with 4 +1/+1 counters! That's 10 +1/+1 counters for any creature that comes into play.
Out there could also be a MoW, but maybe 1 or 2 tokens have died from blocking/attacking, or now there is more blue out there for devotion, like a Jace is now on the field or a Biomancer is now on the field when he wasn't there before. Return MoW, get some more Elementals or get some more and pump the elementals even bigger!
If the Biomancer is out, and another creature like Nightveil Specter is out there from before Biomancer hit the board, return the Specter, play it again, and now he's a bigger threat.
The Prime Speaker becomes pretty interesting when turn 5 was a Species Gorger and turn 6 is the Prime Speaker... Hand gets completely refreshed! The Shrine will help cast her.
I think that this doesn't have to be a 'Blue Devotion' only deck, but with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx it can be a Simic devotion deck...
Another thought would be Nylea's Desciple and Species Gorger. So If the Desciple is on the field, she can be bounced back to the hand, then recast for more life gain.
A lot of these cards should have strong ETB effects, or benefit from other cards having strong ETB effects.
The core of this deck is
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Master Biomancer
4 Master of Waves
It is balancing the rest of the creatures and power around that core group.
I think it can be very competitive! It's a very strong combination, and with MoW he completely flips board control in your favor for 4 mana.
Mono blue devotion just won pro tour theros
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptths13/Top_8_Decks
Not only did it win but it made up 3/8 of the top 8.
I think simic version of the deck could be the big innovation.
4 Cloudfin Raptor
4 Master Biomancer
4 Master of Waves
3 frostburn weird
4 Sylvan Carytid
3 omen speaker
2 Thassa, God of the Sea
2 bident of thassa
2 Simic charm
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Swan song
2 giant growth
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Jace, architect of thought
8 Islands
6 Forests
4 Breeding Pool
4 Temple of Mystery
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Basically the same list but no curse of the swine since for its effect it's expensive and cyclonic rift is just better. I'm gonna guess that maybe prime speaker should go for bident of thassa since we really can't go over cmc4 without straying from our central plan of getting devotion and optimizing plays with master biomancer and master of waves. Bident gives double devotion and can draw a ton of cards with tokens and cloudfin raptor.
If fathom Mage were our cmc4 draw card then species gorger could fit in, because at very least he could block, return himself, recast and pump up evolve cloudfin and fathom Mage, he could also return fathom Mage and recast many times with biomancer in play. However I'm gonna stick with the pros and say that bident has a less drawn out plan in that right after it's cast you can swing and draw cards, also it's nice against aggro which can force there 2/2 into your army of 4/3.
I'm diggin this.. A LOT.
What I really like about this list and what was an unexpected benefit is the interaction between Master Biomancer and Frostburn Weird. If he enters the battlefield after Biomancer he becomes a 3/6.. He's getting up there to the power level of Aetherling, for a 2 blue. That's really efficient and the fact that he provides more devotion.
I agree about the Species Gorger. He would be fun for more long drawn out games... but for our overall goal here, I'm with you.
After starting to do some playtesting with Prime Speaker Zegana I really REALLY like her! The Shrine should help cast her our deck here. Plus I don't have any Jace's and I'm not gonna give up my Elspeths to get him right now. Ha!
I think that Nightveil Specter is very important to the deck. My concern is more along the lines of him adding to our devotion. It becomes important for Thassa to be a creature by turn 4-5. This way when PSZ comes into play, we can get 5+ cards. I also think that 3 is doable because we want her in the opening hand as much as possible, and when we scry, we can put one on the bottom of the deck.
You provide a good point about the Bident and I believe it's a must. It's going to be the best option for card draw, and adds to devotion. 2 Bidents for now.
Current list
4 Cloudfin Raptor
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Master Biomancer
4 Master of Waves
4 Nightveil Specter
3 Omenspeaker
3 Thassa, God of the Sea
2 Frostburn Weird
2 Simic Charm
2 Bident of Thassa
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Rapid Hybridization
4 forest
6 Island
4 breeding pool
4 Temple of mystery
1 mutavault
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Overgrown Tomb
I think by using Nightveil Specter we can cut down on a land or two because the shrine will help cast the creatures.
Edit: I also added in one Overgrown Tomb. This may end up being two, but too often I think we'll be struggling to find that 3rd blue mana source to cast the Nightveil Specter so the Tomb allows us to still cast it without hurting our green mana sources.
I like your take on things. It's essentially just a more aggro take on my list. However I will say that in your list I would cut one nightveil and add one frostburn. I'm worried that having two nightveil in your starting hand and not getting three blue could screw you up.
Also I'm always wary of playing too many legends, with thassa I'm double worried since they can't kill her for us to cast the next one. However on the other hand she is such a powerhouse, I thought she was the worst god however once you play with her you quickly realize how good she is, hell even the scry is good. I can't believe dezani and the rest played 4 but I'm gonna take your lead and try 3.
I really don't think the deck needs to worry about creatures. I'm gonna keep giant growth as an extra insurance policy over hybridization, but I think rapid hybridization is also I really cheap efficient card for this type of deck as well.
Also cut muta or one shrine. With devotion decks you really gotta watch your mana.
Aaahhhhhh I can't wait till simic gets it's god. I think the only one mentioned by name so far is the izzet god keranos.
I think 4 Thassa is better truthfully. Such a key cog and you can always scry extras away. Here is what I would run:
4 Cloudfin Raptor
4 Frostburn Weird
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Master Biomancer
4 Master of Waves
2 Prime Speaker Zegana
2 Rapid Hybridization
2 Cyclonic Rift
3 Simic Charm
Lands:24
4 Breeding Pool
3 Forest
9 Island
2 Mutavault
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Mystery
Got rid of omenspeaker and bident for more frost burn and use prime speaker for the later game card draw. Also added a simic charm. Just too good a card for this deck. Would run 4 if I could. No shrine since mana shouldnt be an issue with caratid and don't want to get stuck with a card that's not as helpful.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Like the theme of Simic Waves....or maybe it should be Seismic Waves:)...how has the mana been with these versions...enough blue for early drops and just enough green for Caryatid/charm too? or do you miss drops?
- the only real question I have is about running Slyvan Cartatid- Is it required? without it the mana base would be smoother and 8-10 green sources should be enough 70-80% of the time..no?
Prime speaker is sweet, but I like the perhaps Progentitor Mimic route....copying Waves or Biomancer could make quick work...or maybe just winmore.....
Okay... Got off of work and went to my LGS to play a little. Got about 5 games in against a very fast aggro GW deck. Went 1-4 and too often I was on the defensive, and not offensive.
I see what you are saying about the Specter.... not having the 3rd blue mana to cast him and having him in the opening hand is worth a mulligan if we don't have the Sylvan Caryatid. 4 Frostburn Werid would be better against a more aggro build, while 2 Specters is more appropriate. Also, if we are not playing Tidebinder Mage, 4 are a must in the sideboard. I would've loved to drop it on turn 2 tonight to tap their Lion or VoR. GW doesn't have much in the way of removal to handle getting rid of the Mage.
I'm cutting Mutavault for another Island or another Shrine. I really think another dork, or Voyaging Satyr would help.
Another 1 drop should be considered. Wasteland Viper, X1, Galerider Sliver, Elvish Mystic. Dropping omenspeaker and running three Mystics may be viable.
Rapid Hybridization may be sideboard for 4 Cyclonic Rift. The Shrine makes it easier to cast it's overload cost to send everything back to their hand, rather than killing one creature.
Getting rid of Omenspeaker is doable with a 4th Thassa. Omenspeaker becomes redundant with Thassa on the board.
I like running 3 of the caratids. Hex proof 3 toughness mana dork is pretty good and helps cast stuff specter gets. May be able to switch a forest though with a mutavault or even a shrine with caratid in the deck. I thought about mimic but it seems excessive. If you have a MoW and he sticks you already won. Mimic doesn't change that. Haven't done much play testing though. I am focusing on a UB version for a SCG open this weekend. UB is more versatile to me with the thoughtsieze and much better removal. But this deck I think had a lot of promise. I think that it's missing something but can't quite put my finger on it.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Caryatid is good because he blocks bears and gets the biomancer out on turn 3, but if we have no biomancer, rather a MoW then MoW isn't that effective.
The thing is that turn 2 is the turning point... Caryatid, or Frostburn? If we run Mystics, Thassa can be out turn 2. Then on Turn 3 hopefully we can put down a Biomancer, or Raptor and evolve it with a Caryatid or frostburn...
Edit: I think what this deck is missing is an early threat at the two cc spot or a good removal outside of simic charm or rift. There isn't anything that can handle a Fleecemane Lion or VoR without putting a token into play.
Are you building aggro or control?
To me UB aggro with Nightveil Specter, Mogis's Marauder, Lifebane Zombie, Deathcult Rogue and MoW could be very strong when you have the Marauder making everyone hastey!!
Here is what I'm doing:
4 Cloudfin Raptor
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Master of Waves
Spells:16
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cyclonic Rift
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Far // Away
2 Bident of Thassa
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
13 Island
2 Mutavault
1 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Watery Grave
3 Doom Blade
1 Gainsay
3 Negate
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tidebinder Mage
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 AEtherling
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Yes, yes, yes. We know the mono blue and UB ones are sick. Obviously UB guarantees that you have the right mana for nightveil, and thoughtseize and ashiok can both be absolutely huge against certain decks. But if you didn't read the thread this is to discuss UG master of waves deck not UB.
I am going to make comment anyway. You don't need that many responsive spells. The master of waves deck is in essence a midrange creature deck with a lot of vertical synergy. Only 2 thoughtseize, 2 far //away, and 2 cyclonic rift are enough. this type of deck needs creatures or else it can't go anywhere. Ashiok or jace possibly can win the game without creatures but most of the time it won't happen. So 24 creatures minimum is a must, also look at the pro lists, some only have 1 cyclonic rift.
Also scry doesn't make a damn difference, you can scry away something and draw it still, You can have 2 in your starting hand still.........
I mean in terms of pure power yea no kidding thassa was undervalued till this tournament, she is badass. But I think 4 is too much.
Couple things. Yes i read the title of the thread. My list was posted as a direct answer to a question. Sorry if that offended you. As far as the creature base I felt that I would rather draw a thoughtsieze or a far/away than a judges familiar. Watching the mirror matches those guys were dying for a rift not a familiar or raptor. And copying a list won't win anything. I expect a LOT of hate and mirror matches and need things to protect my MoW like thoughtsiezeing that verdict or or detention sphere or even bouncing MoW with far/away. I will still stick with 4 Thassa but if I can get my hands on a couple more tide benders i will probably replace a card or two with them. Ashiok may not make my final cuts either.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Also, If we go with Bident of Thassa, Aetherize is a great play.
With how the deck is right now, we have 3 turn 1 plays, land, land Raptor, or Scry land. If we add back in Elvish Mystic it gives us better turn 1 drops, and we can either drop Thassa turn 2, or scry land and Omenspeaker or Sylvan Caryatid or Frostburn Weird. Mystic gives us much better starts to the game, and can set up turn 3 Prophets, Biomancer, or MoW. Frostburn Weird and Nightveil Specter are not good together in this deck without having a second color to cast them.
The other card I'd say that I would like try is Wasteland Viper because he evloves the Raptor and makes our opponent much less likely to block. Also, with the bident, forcing them to attack into the viper can take out one of their fatties. With Giant Growth, or Simic Charm on the Viper, he survives, while some of their bigger creatures die.
The original idea for this deck was for all of the creatures to be very influential on each other. That's why I do like Vaporkin a lot. When MoW is on the board, he becomes a decent threat for 2cc. He also can evolve the raptor, after he's already been evolved once.
I'm gonna keep plugging and playtesting. but There is a ton of great ideas in this thread.. but the deck in it's current state I think is too defensive and slow when it needs to have drop 2-3 threats by turn 3.
I like Aetherize in combination with the Bident. Also does 4 Thoughtsize seem like too much? 3 seems pretty solid. Also, no Hero's Downfall?
I have considered aetherize for sure. Probably a SB card though. I am thinking 4 thoughtsieze may be too much at least MD given its limited use later on. If I can get my hands on a couple more tide-benders ill probably replace one of them. I love heroes downfall but the 2B in the casting cost is too tough.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
I agree with the limited removal it has to be FAST. And with the other bigger threats like MoW prophet has a better chance of lasting a turn or two. I would rather take a deck like this to SCG open but it's not quite there yet. Wish we had a couple creatures like frost burn or specter that cost either U or G. Would help with the devotion part and smooth it out.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Wait wait wait. No ones offended except you it seems. I'm not making a comment about your deck being worse than some pro deck, don't let your behind get all sore. I'm also certainly not one to net deck, I've been playing since 4th edition and I don't believe in that nonsense.
I'm just making the comment that such a midrange creature deck that is relying on a lot of vertical synergy needs a good ratio of creatures to spells. Thoughtseize is badass, some people even believe that if you're playing black and don't have it, that your deck is fundamentally flawed. I advocate your BU build, it's obviously powerful, I'm just questioning how you can be consistent with less than 24 creatures.
As usual something is lost via typing. I will clarify. I welcome comments on my deck. Criticism is key for improvement IMO. What annoyed me about your comment was the forum police-like crack about posting a UB in a UG thread. It was posted as an answer to a question and I felt that comment you made about it was unnecessary. Now back to business I agree that more creatures would be good but the difference in a mono color vice 2 color is quality of other options. Yeah tossing a familiar or a tide bender is great when your only other option is rapid hybridation or triton tactics but to me when you have options like doom blade or far/away it's hard to justify a creature for the sake of a creature. I am starting to agree with you that maybe 4 thoughtsieze and such is excessive but not sure of another option that is "better".
Edit: so what do you think of Shipwreck Singer ? Evolves raptor, has some evasion, helps devotion a bit, and would crush the mono U mirror match. Something like this:
4 Cloudfin Raptor
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Shipwreck Singer
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Master of Waves
Spells:12
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cyclonic Rift
2 Far // Away
2 Bident of Thassa
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Dimir Guildgate
11 Island
2 Mutavault
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Watery Grave
1 Thoughtseize
3 Doom Blade
1 Gainsay
3 Negate
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Far // Away
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Jace, Memory Adept
1 AEtherling
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Aahhhh well I guess there was some sort of miscommunication. I didn't mean to offend you or police you. I actually like ashiok in this deck, but since jace is better and he gives double devotion I see why ashiok can't make the cut. I really like the sirens, they were a card they I really could get behind In a flavor and mechanic sort of way. They can also make utility creatures attack into your thassa which is funny, or wreck havoc on an army of tokens. This might sound weird but do you really think rift is better than far // away? For me far // away is cool since it can be cast at cmc 2,3, or 5. Cyclonic rift can only be casted at cmc 2 or 7, it's overall power is much greater but not as versatile in my opinion.
Very nice build though, definitely competitive. One last comment I will make though is that I don't think the 2 color builds can support more than 2 non mana producing lands. I would either choose between 2 muta, or 2 shrine, or 1 and 1. I don't think 3 or 4 can work. Think about it if there is 3 or more that means more than 10% of your lands can't produce colors In a devotion deck. In some of those pt decks they had 3 to 5 but that was doable since they were only one color.
Edit: also the singer is good with the bident.
I think far/away and rift really do two different things for this deck. Far/away is more for creatures and even bouncing a MoW if I need too and rift is more of a troublesome permanent like plane walkers and enchanents like D-sphere. And of course an overloaded rift is GG in most cases. But I do see where you're coming from though and I did think about it. Going back to the pro decks though if just bouncing a single creature was key then they would have run voyage end I think. Testing hasn't given me issues with mutavaults and shrine but I think you may have a point but I think mutavault will win that battle since it's more useful in most matchups. As far as ashiok goes he's just not as good as is hoped in any matchup really. Vs control I'm much better off dropping a jace MA and really any other matchup id be better off with a specter or Thassa or even away side of far/away for my three drop.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
4 Cloudfin Raptor
3 judges familiar
4 Master of Waves
3 Master Biomancer
3 frostburn weird
4 Sylvan Carytid
3 Thassa, God of the Sea
2 Simic charm
2 Cyclonic Rift
3 Swan song
3 giant growth
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Jace, architect of thought
10 Islands
6 Forests
4 Breeding Pool
4 Temple of Mystery
Ok so here is my new list.
Couple small changes. I really liked the utility of judges familiar when I watched the pt videos. Its decent for devotion, evasive, draws cards with bident down, and can be sacrificed to take care of any instants that will mess up our combo.
I found myself drawing 2 biomancer in every situation where I absolutely didn't want it. So I figured the biomancer is great but without zegana or other necessary synergies with biomancer besides MoW we can go down to 3.
Went up to three thassa, however I just can't bring myself to play 4 of any legend. My friend literally had to twist my arm to get me to play 4 st traft. I didn't regret it, but thing is feel st traft was a lightning rod since every deck had to play some thing to get rid of him. So thassa is really hard to get rid of, if I draw one when it's in play, or have 2 in my starting hand I'm just too annoyed, so 3 it is.
I will agree with tatebomb, now that this list doesn't have anything above cmc4 there is very little reason to use shrine, especially since this is not a pure devotion deck.
Edit: on further testing memory adept sucks
I think 3 Thassa's is good. 4, in this deck is too much.
I have decided to go back more towards the original build. It has a smoother flow, imo, for the way I play, and how I feel comfortable playing.
I did switch the Cloudfin Raptor for Judge's Familiar. Tatebomb said it best, that what is missing is a creature that can be cast with Blue or Green. Just a 1 or a 2 drop that could be cast by either could really help this deck.
Current build...
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Master Biomancer
4 Master of Waves
3 Sylvan Carytid
3 Prophet of Kruphix
3 Elvish Mystic
3 Thassa, God of the Sea
2 Frostburn Weird
2 Nightveil Specter
2 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Simic Charm
2 Bident of Thassa
2 Aetherize
3 Cyconic Rift
Land
6 Islands
5 Forests
4 Breeding Pool
4 Temple of Mystery
2 Nykthos, Shrine of Nyx
1 Overgrown Tomb
The Shrine helps get the overload on the Cyclonic Rift and the Prophet allows Aetherize and the Rift to be stronger. I just really like playing the Prophet, and then PSZ their turn to refill my hand during their turn.
We'll see how it goes though.