Here is my current list, I unfortunately missed out on last nights FNM, but played enough scratch games to get a good feel for the deck.
My previous build was just getting obliterated by aggro decks, and then I added Devour Flesh, along with High Priest of Pennance and now my aggro friends don't want to even play this deck. They're that good here.
Here is my current list, I unfortunately missed out on last nights FNM, but played enough scratch games to get a good feel for the deck.
My previous build was just getting obliterated by aggro decks, and then I added Devour Flesh, along with High Priest of Pennance and now my aggro friends don't want to even play this deck. They're that good here.
Every permanent, including Pack Rat tokens, is black and boosts devotion, which makes your Erebos, Disciples, Gray Merchants, and Nythkos very strong. Lots of tools versus aggro, control, midrange, whatever. Pack Rat is exceptional in the deck, as is the Whip with all the CIP creatures.
Sideboard is kinda preliminary.
Thoughts?
My only thought is that pack rat tokens don't do anything for devotion.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
I disagree. They are tokens. As such they have no mana cost. If im wrong so be it but show me the ruling please.
110.5b The spell or ability that creates a token may define the values of any number of
characteristics for the token. This becomes the token’s “text.” The characteristic values defined
this way are functionally equivalent to the characteristic values that are printed on a card; for
example, they define the token’s copiable values. A token doesn’t have any characteristics not
defined by the spell or ability that created it.
"706.1. Some objects become or turn another object into a “copy” of a spell, permanent, or card. Some
effects put a token onto the battlefield that’s a copy of another object. (Certain older cards were
printed with the phrase “search for a copy.” This section doesn’t cover those cards, which have
received new text in the Oracle card reference.)
706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s
characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode,
targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The “copiable values” are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power,
toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and
“as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to
be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and
counters are not copied."
Copies of cards created by the Momir Vig avatar, Mimic Vat, Progenitor Mimic, etc... all have these copiable values.
EDH: UG Momir Vig, Simic Visionary BW Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter BUG The Mimeoplasm UWR Zedruu the Greathearted RUG Riku of Two Reflections UR Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius WR Aurelia, the Warleader
Any particular reason that no number of Ultimate Price has showed up in any of these lists or sideboards?
I understand that it doesn't kill everything, but *all* of our removal has bad matchups, which is why we're diversifying... why aren't we diversifying into Ultimate Price too?
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Level 1 Judge - Midwest, USA
EDH: UG Momir Vig, Simic Visionary BW Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter BUG The Mimeoplasm UWR Zedruu the Greathearted RUG Riku of Two Reflections UR Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius WR Aurelia, the Warleader
Any particular reason that no number of Ultimate Price has showed up in any of these lists or sideboards?
I understand that it doesn't kill everything, but *all* of our removal has bad matchups, which is why we're diversifying... why aren't we diversifying into Ultimate Price too?
It's very limited in what it can kill. Just think of GW decks by itself for example. Voice of Resurgence, Loxodon Smiter, Fleecemane Lion, Trostani, and Advent of the Wurm. All immune.
110.5b The spell or ability that creates a token may define the values of any number of
characteristics for the token. This becomes the token’s “text.” The characteristic values defined
this way are functionally equivalent to the characteristic values that are printed on a card; for
example, they define the token’s copiable values. A token doesn’t have any characteristics not
defined by the spell or ability that created it.
"706.1. Some objects become or turn another object into a “copy” of a spell, permanent, or card. Some
effects put a token onto the battlefield that’s a copy of another object. (Certain older cards were
printed with the phrase “search for a copy.” This section doesn’t cover those cards, which have
received new text in the Oracle card reference.)
706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s
characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode,
targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The “copiable values” are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power,
toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and
“as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to
be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and
counters are not copied."
Copies of cards created by the Momir Vig avatar, Mimic Vat, Progenitor Mimic, etc... all have these copiable values.
Now for an Internet first: I was wrong
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
whats everyones take on sanguine bond in this deck? blood baron, obzedat and whip can all trigger it. Is it too cute or a viable option?
In B/W, I prefer Vizkopa Guildmage over Sanguine Bond. Just a handful, you don't really want to see her until the late game.
Bond is fairly expensive at 5, and only does anything once you get your lifelinkers swinging. It is fairly resilient as an enchantment.
The guildmage is easy to place on the field at 2 mana. You can always use her as a chump blocker early on if absolutely necessary. Once you have 5 mana sources, you can drop her and activate her ability for the turn even if they have immediate removal. You are also only a small step away from being able to activate her second ability twice at that point in the game, and that's where the blowout life swings can happen. Also, while less impressive than her second ability, you can always use her first to grant lifelink to obzedat or some other creature if you can't find your whip. She is fragile as a creature, but I usually don't care too terribly much if my opponent is spending their removal/counter magic on a 2 drop.
Any particular reason that no number of Ultimate Price has showed up in any of these lists or sideboards?
I understand that it doesn't kill everything, but *all* of our removal has bad matchups, which is why we're diversifying... why aren't we diversifying into Ultimate Price too?
Between Doom Blade and Dark Betrayal, the only things immune to spot removal are hexproof or indestructible creatures - and those can be dealt with via Devour Flesh. I run 3x DBlade, 3x DFlesh, 2x Hero's Downfall mainboard, and 3x Dark Betrayal sideboard to be swapped for Doom Blade against black decks. I think it's a pretty solid balance, and no Ult Price needed.
In B/W, I prefer Vizkopa Guildmage over Sanguine Bond. Just a handful, you don't really want to see her until the late game.
Bond is fairly expensive at 5, and only does anything once you get your lifelinkers swinging. It is fairly resilient as an enchantment.
The guildmage is easy to place on the field at 2 mana. You can always use her as a chump blocker early on if absolutely necessary. Once you have 5 mana sources, you can drop her and activate her ability for the turn even if they have immediate removal. You are also only a small step away from being able to activate her second ability twice at that point in the game, and that's where the blowout life swings can happen. Also, while less impressive than her second ability, you can always use her first to grant lifelink to obzedat or some other creature if you can't find your whip. She is fragile as a creature, but I usually don't care too terribly much if my opponent is spending their removal/counter magic on a 2 drop.
That's kind of the great thing about it. At it's best, you swing for massive damage with Baron or even more if you have a Whip of Erebos out, and at it's worst, your opponent is wasting there good cards on a 2 drop. Something to think about to be sure.
I really think people are very underrating High Priest in this deck. I played in a 4 round and a 5 round tournament this weekend and it works amazing! You can 2 for 1 vs aggro sometimes.
I really think people are very underrating High Priest in this deck. I played in a 4 round and a 5 round tournament this weekend and it works amazing! You can 2 for 1 vs aggro sometimes.
the meta in my LGS is just crawling with mono-red aggro, i agree with the high priests in MD. It just trades with everything they have, and if we're lucky, we can 2 for 1 their creatures.. I also put 3 pharika's cure in the MD, as it deals with almost all of mono-red's creatures (except reckoner and dragon) and other annoying threats (voice), it also backtracks any loss of life that the deck does to us (thoughtseize, shocklands, rtb)..and in some cases, like my opponent not wanting to/or not having any means of damage for the high priests to work, i use them on the high priests to trigger and destroy stuff i normally cant (artifacts, enchantments, etc).
anyways, im thinking of taking out 1 high priest for a spear of heliod. the +1/+1 bonus takes my barons out of mizzium mortar range (probably the only removal that can 1 for 1 BBV)..what do you guys think?
also, im still iffy with the orzhov charms in the SB..any suggestions?
Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been primarily playing rakdos aggro but I'm looking to switch up to a more midrange deck and I really like what b/w has to offer. I've been following some of the deck lists here and I'm fascinated by the use of Alms Beast. I get his purpose, but the whole idea of providing lifegain to my opponent bothers me. Would Hundred-Handed One work just as well? it has 5 toughness and can become monstrous, plus it has vigilance so it can block and swing the next turn if need be.
Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been primarily playing rakdos aggro but I'm looking to switch up to a more midrange deck and I really like what b/w has to offer. I've been following some of the deck lists here and I'm fascinated by the use of Alms Beast. I get his purpose, but the whole idea of providing lifegain to my opponent bothers me. Would Hundred-Handed One work just as well? it has 5 toughness and can become monstrous, plus it has vigilance so it can block and swing the next turn if need be.
Why is everyone having such a hard time evaluating Alms Beast without being completely blinded by a knee-jerk "Giving lifelink to my opponents is bad" reaction. It really doesn't matter. The only times it matters is when you are racing, and that probably isn't where this deck wants to be anyways. And in cases where you are racing, Whip/Obzedat/BBoV make you better at racing than most decks anyways.
Why is everyone having such a hard time evaluating Alms Beast without being completely blinded by a knee-jerk "Giving lifelink to my opponents is bad" reaction. It really doesn't matter. The only times it matters is when you are racing, and that probably isn't where this deck wants to be anyways. And in cases where you are racing, Whip/Obzedat/BBoV make you better at racing than most decks anyways.
Ok. Nevermind that I mentioned the lifelink on Alms Beast at all. In comparison, is Hundred-Handed One a bad option?
Esper Control (whether it is superfriends or AEtherling) is so brutal. So, soooo brutal. I think it's going to shape up my sideboard for the time being. The only path to win I can see is Obzedat + Whip, which means protecting the Whip with Glare of Heresy to take down Detention Spheres.
I've started testing with the list that runs red as well, and generally like it a lot.
The deck as very similar, as this same issue. I've taken to two pithing needles and two slaughter games in side to solve this problem.
Yeah, I think WBR is where you want to be. Some burn, the mythic Dragon and Slaughter Games helps a whole lot. Dreadbore is also rather nice.
I don't think Stormbreath is worth playing in BWR. Slaughter Games is an alright sideboard card. The main reason you would splash red would be for Mizzium, Rakdos Return, Dreadbore and Warleaders Helix. That is really it. Anger of the Gods is alright, but that double red is risky.
First time poster. I ran a BW list last week at FNM and went 2-2. I've changed it up a bit and I'm going to a thursday FNM this week and want to do well with this. Any help would be grand.
I really enjoy this deck. When it wins, it wins. But when it loses, it sucks. I would really love for this thing to be competitive and would gladly take any constructive criticism from anyone on here. Thanks in advance.
My meta at FNM was weird, mainly cause it was the first. A lot of UW/Esper Control and aggro. A couple of UB mill decks popped up too but the one I faced seemed pretty easy.
He certainly fixes your blocking problems forever once he goes monstrous.
He has WW in his casting cost though. Most of these decks have predominantly black mana bases, and your mana base might be stretched further if you are trying to squeeze in a third color. Still, casting him shouldn't be an issue if you're running Godless Shrine, Temple of Silence, and a few plains.
He also doesn't provide any B devotion, which is an issue for decks that are experimenting with Erebos, God of the Dead (who coincidentally makes Alms Beast 's lifelink problem even less of an issue).
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My previous build was just getting obliterated by aggro decks, and then I added Devour Flesh, along with High Priest of Pennance and now my aggro friends don't want to even play this deck. They're that good here.
Anyways, here's the current list!
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
4 Alm's Beast
4 Sin Collector
2 Blood Baron Of Vizkopa
4 Lifebane Zombie
Planeswalkers: 1
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Other Spells: 18
2 Whip Of Erebos
2 Underworld Connections
3 Read the Bones
3 Devour Flesh
4 Thought Seize
4 Doom Blade
12 Swamp
5 Plains
4 Godless Shrine
4 Temple of Silence
4 High Priest of Pennance
4 Desecration Demon
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Illness in the Ranks
4 ???
Still working on a sideboard according to the local scene.
I've learned in actual playtesting, that 4 thoughtseize main is really just overboard. Three is probably the ideal number.
I also only think you need one underworld main, maybe even go down to none main. Then side them in vs control.
This will make room for three Hero's Downfall, which are an allstar.
My only thought is that pack rat tokens don't do anything for devotion.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Actually, they do. They are copies. Including mana cost.
I disagree. They are tokens. As such they have no mana cost. If im wrong so be it but show me the ruling please.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
110.5b The spell or ability that creates a token may define the values of any number of
characteristics for the token. This becomes the token’s “text.” The characteristic values defined
this way are functionally equivalent to the characteristic values that are printed on a card; for
example, they define the token’s copiable values. A token doesn’t have any characteristics not
defined by the spell or ability that created it.
"706.1. Some objects become or turn another object into a “copy” of a spell, permanent, or card. Some
effects put a token onto the battlefield that’s a copy of another object. (Certain older cards were
printed with the phrase “search for a copy.” This section doesn’t cover those cards, which have
received new text in the Oracle card reference.)
706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s
characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode,
targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The
“copiable values” are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name,
mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power,
toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and
“as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to
be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and
counters are not copied."
Copies of cards created by the Momir Vig avatar, Mimic Vat, Progenitor Mimic, etc... all have these copiable values.
EDH:
UG Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
BW Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
BUG The Mimeoplasm
UWR Zedruu the Greathearted
RUG Riku of Two Reflections
UR Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
WR Aurelia, the Warleader
I dunno, taking two life isn't always optimal, however every time I drew into a thoughtseize I was happy.
However I do think Underworld can be sided especially since I'm playing Read the Bones.
I think I'd probably swap out 2 Hero's Downfall for 2 Underworld COnnections vs. control
I understand that it doesn't kill everything, but *all* of our removal has bad matchups, which is why we're diversifying... why aren't we diversifying into Ultimate Price too?
EDH:
UG Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
BW Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
BUG The Mimeoplasm
UWR Zedruu the Greathearted
RUG Riku of Two Reflections
UR Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
WR Aurelia, the Warleader
It's very limited in what it can kill. Just think of GW decks by itself for example. Voice of Resurgence, Loxodon Smiter, Fleecemane Lion, Trostani, and Advent of the Wurm. All immune.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Now for an Internet first: I was wrong
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Problem with cards/combos like that are they are usually just a win more and also what are you gonna cut for the 2 copies at least of it?
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
In B/W, I prefer Vizkopa Guildmage over Sanguine Bond. Just a handful, you don't really want to see her until the late game.
Bond is fairly expensive at 5, and only does anything once you get your lifelinkers swinging. It is fairly resilient as an enchantment.
The guildmage is easy to place on the field at 2 mana. You can always use her as a chump blocker early on if absolutely necessary. Once you have 5 mana sources, you can drop her and activate her ability for the turn even if they have immediate removal. You are also only a small step away from being able to activate her second ability twice at that point in the game, and that's where the blowout life swings can happen. Also, while less impressive than her second ability, you can always use her first to grant lifelink to obzedat or some other creature if you can't find your whip. She is fragile as a creature, but I usually don't care too terribly much if my opponent is spending their removal/counter magic on a 2 drop.
Between Doom Blade and Dark Betrayal, the only things immune to spot removal are hexproof or indestructible creatures - and those can be dealt with via Devour Flesh. I run 3x DBlade, 3x DFlesh, 2x Hero's Downfall mainboard, and 3x Dark Betrayal sideboard to be swapped for Doom Blade against black decks. I think it's a pretty solid balance, and no Ult Price needed.
That's kind of the great thing about it. At it's best, you swing for massive damage with Baron or even more if you have a Whip of Erebos out, and at it's worst, your opponent is wasting there good cards on a 2 drop. Something to think about to be sure.
here's my current list
3 sin collector
2 alms beast
3 desecration demon
4 blood baron of vizkopa
2 obzedat ghost council
4 thoughtseize
3 pharika's cure
3 heroes downfall
3 doomblade
3 read the bones
4 godless shrine
4 temple of silence
4 plains
12 swamps
2 glare of heresy
2 pithing needle
2 dark betrayal
3 lifebane zombie
3 orzhov charm
the meta in my LGS is just crawling with mono-red aggro, i agree with the high priests in MD. It just trades with everything they have, and if we're lucky, we can 2 for 1 their creatures.. I also put 3 pharika's cure in the MD, as it deals with almost all of mono-red's creatures (except reckoner and dragon) and other annoying threats (voice), it also backtracks any loss of life that the deck does to us (thoughtseize, shocklands, rtb)..and in some cases, like my opponent not wanting to/or not having any means of damage for the high priests to work, i use them on the high priests to trigger and destroy stuff i normally cant (artifacts, enchantments, etc).
anyways, im thinking of taking out 1 high priest for a spear of heliod. the +1/+1 bonus takes my barons out of mizzium mortar range (probably the only removal that can 1 for 1 BBV)..what do you guys think?
also, im still iffy with the orzhov charms in the SB..any suggestions?
Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been primarily playing rakdos aggro but I'm looking to switch up to a more midrange deck and I really like what b/w has to offer. I've been following some of the deck lists here and I'm fascinated by the use of Alms Beast. I get his purpose, but the whole idea of providing lifegain to my opponent bothers me. Would Hundred-Handed One work just as well? it has 5 toughness and can become monstrous, plus it has vigilance so it can block and swing the next turn if need be.
Why is everyone having such a hard time evaluating Alms Beast without being completely blinded by a knee-jerk "Giving lifelink to my opponents is bad" reaction. It really doesn't matter. The only times it matters is when you are racing, and that probably isn't where this deck wants to be anyways. And in cases where you are racing, Whip/Obzedat/BBoV make you better at racing than most decks anyways.
Ok. Nevermind that I mentioned the lifelink on Alms Beast at all. In comparison, is Hundred-Handed One a bad option?
I've started testing with the list that runs red as well, and generally like it a lot.
The deck as very similar, as this same issue. I've taken to two pithing needles and two slaughter games in side to solve this problem.
I don't think Stormbreath is worth playing in BWR. Slaughter Games is an alright sideboard card. The main reason you would splash red would be for Mizzium, Rakdos Return, Dreadbore and Warleaders Helix. That is really it. Anger of the Gods is alright, but that double red is risky.
4 soldier of the pantheon
3 High Priest of Penance
3 Fiendslayer Paladin
4 Alms Beast
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
Enchantments
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Blind Obedience
Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Thoughtseize
2 Read the Bones
3 Celestial Flare
3 Doom Blade
2 Hero's Downfall
Lands
8 Plains
8 Swamp
4 Temple of Silence
4 Godless Shrine
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Thoughtseize
3 Sin Collector
3 Desecration Demon
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Pithing Needle
2 Merciless Eviction
I really enjoy this deck. When it wins, it wins. But when it loses, it sucks. I would really love for this thing to be competitive and would gladly take any constructive criticism from anyone on here. Thanks in advance.
My meta at FNM was weird, mainly cause it was the first. A lot of UW/Esper Control and aggro. A couple of UB mill decks popped up too but the one I faced seemed pretty easy.
He looks like a good choice to me. Like Alms beast, he's big enough to either win/survive most of the combat you face while trying to stabilize. Alms beast fights more favorably against Advent of the Wurm though. Although hundred-handed one ducks underneath Selesnya Charm.
He certainly fixes your blocking problems forever once he goes monstrous.
He has WW in his casting cost though. Most of these decks have predominantly black mana bases, and your mana base might be stretched further if you are trying to squeeze in a third color. Still, casting him shouldn't be an issue if you're running Godless Shrine, Temple of Silence, and a few plains.
He also doesn't provide any B devotion, which is an issue for decks that are experimenting with Erebos, God of the Dead (who coincidentally makes Alms Beast 's lifelink problem even less of an issue).