Howdy, I'm new to MTGSalvation, though not new to MTG, though I haven't played competitively since the Ravnica/TimeSpiral meta. With that said, I'm looking at American Control at present, as I really don't see a way to really play Draw-Go as I'm used to (Think Dralnu), though I did contemplate it with Bant Control using Advent of the Wurm, the lack of removal turned me against it.
Anywho...here's what I've been testing, I'm not happy with it yet, but I figure this is a starting point.
(I'm doing this off of memory as I'm away from my home computer, so I'm sure the side is wrong)
Something I noticed last night when testing with this list is the BW-Midrange was, as my ball coach used to say, "Taking my sack lunch". The hand destruction was brutal, as was the lack of outs to that ghost Council.
Any suggestions on the deck in general, and anything helpful specific to the Midrange matchup would be greatly appreciated...
Render Silent is necessary rather than Counterflux
Why would you run Render Silence over Counterflux?
I would run more dissolve over either of them. I don't like the extra specific mana cost.
I also feel like scry 1 is the best of the choice of marginal upside, but that's up for debate.
Lets not forget that our card selection will be cut drasticly when we are considering kill conditions in our new decks. This in mind, slaughter games is going to have a hayday with control decks.
I'm running r/w/u with 4 different win cons and an extra in sb.
1-aetherling
1-elspeth
1-assemble the liegions
1-jace a.o.t. (using it to cast one of their kill cons; suprise!)
Sb
2 jace m.a.
Lets not forget that our card selection will be cut drasticly when we are considering kill conditions in our new decks. This in mind, slaughter games is going to have a hayday with control decks.
I'm running r/w/u with 4 different win cons and an extra in sb.
1-aetherling
1-elspeth
1-assemble the liegions
1-jace a.o.t. (using it to cast one of their kill cons; suprise!)
Sb
2 jace m.a.
Lets not forget that our card selection will be cut drasticly when we are considering kill conditions in our new decks. This in mind, slaughter games is going to have a hayday with control decks.
I'm running r/w/u with 4 different win cons and an extra in sb.
1-aetherling
1-elspeth
1-assemble the liegions
1-jace a.o.t. (using it to cast one of their kill cons; suprise!)
Sb
2 jace m.a.
What do yall think?
Since I'll be doing esper ill have blood baron, Obzedat, aetherling, elspeth, ashiok, and jace MA to choose from. Not worried about slaughter games.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
I would run more dissolve over either of them. I don't like the extra specific mana cost.
I also feel like scry 1 is the best of the choice of marginal upside, but that's up for debate.
What?
While I agree with the response in regards to Render Silent, Counterflux is vastly easier to cast than dissolve. Double Symbols are harder to hit than a singular of two specific symbols.
That said, Scry 1 on dissolve is very good. I personally like a 2-2 split between flux and dissolve. Counterflux is much relevant in particular match ups of course and against any blue deck, and particularly control is vastly surperior to Dissolve.
While I agree with the response in regards to Render Silent, Counterflux is vastly easier to cast than dissolve. Double Symbols are harder to hit than a singular of two specific symbols.
That said, Scry 1 on dissolve is very good. I personally like a 2-2 split between flux and dissolve. Counterflux is much relevant in particular match ups of course and against any blue deck, and particularly control is vastly surperior to Dissolve.
Counterflux actually has 3 specific symbols...:symu::symu::symr:
Though I agree with you on it being much more relevant in particular match ups, which is why I'm packing two in the side.
On another note, how many lands is everyone running?
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“There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.”
― Oscar Levant
I'm at 26
It feels okay but I'm still feeling out the correct number of basics, I want more because ideally I want turn 2 and turn 4 to be a untapped land. As a entire list looking something like this
Going this direction with Esper, been play testing since the first few cards were spoiled and have tested weekly against other THS standard proxy decks. This list has a favorable mactchup against everything I've tested against for the most part.
Quicken is in as a 2-of right now for testing. I think it's underrated. At WORST it's one blue to draw a card, at best it's being able to Read the Bones or Supreme Verdict on their turn AND draw a card. I'm not sold on the 3-1 split on Supreme Verdict MD/SB yet. I'd like to have 4 MD but I'm pretty regularly looking at two in my hand with no real use for the second one, since I have so much other spot removal post-verdict. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is in the side as an alternate win-con against control or other Pithing Needle packing decks (if they name Aetherling). I have actually won more games on the back of Blood Baron of Vizkopa than any other win-con I've tested. He's amazing. I was running seven counters but five feels much better. The scry lands are absolutely amazing in a control deck, and make me feel a lot better about running three colors in THS-standard. I've been switching between Doom Blade and Warped Physique seems like every other round of play testing. More of a meta call since there are a few Predator Ooze and Purphoros, God of the Forge decks running about in my testing.
Lets not forget that our card selection will be cut drasticly when we are considering kill conditions in our new decks. This in mind, slaughter games is going to have a hayday with control decks.
I'm running r/w/u with 4 different win cons and an extra in sb.
1-aetherling
1-elspeth
1-assemble the liegions
1-jace a.o.t. (using it to cast one of their kill cons; suprise!)
Sb
2 jace m.a.
What do yall think?
U better not considering JAoT as a wincon. He is not. Even though he can tutor your win con, it need 4 turn alive at least to tuor. He's not a wincon. He is a CA engine. You never consider tutors as win con right? Same goes with jace.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
Yer we have quite a few finishers, what im afraid of is a turn 4 S.Games calling supreme verdict when im on the draw against that rakdos aggro deck. That thing is no joke, check out the primer and do some testing, its gonna be a deck we will NEED to beat to get anywhere early on.
Edit : actually on that note ive had some SB success with Pharika's Cure against early aggro its a 2 mana removal spell that it doesnt feel terrible playing an untapped shockland for, it essentially pays for itself life wise and buys the time to get the turn 4/5 Verdict.
Assuming you're running esper and your meta is going to be full of rakdos sporting slaughter games we have answers for that. Duress and thoughtseize for example. American control you're hosed though lol. I do like that cure spell though. Better than dimir charm at least lol.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
U better not considering JAoT as a wincon. He is not. Even though he can tutor your win con, it need 4 turn alive at least to tuor. He's not a wincon. He is a CA engine. You never consider tutors as win con right? Same goes with jace.
Ummmm if I'm gonna cast a spell to win a game that late into it.... it ain't gonna be mine.... thundermaw hellkite made a great win con aginst any deck that was worth pumping jace to that point. Otherways he's a mini fact or fiction... ya know , for the strict esper, or azouras players out there.
1 d. Sphere
2 renounce the guilds
2 counterflux
2 jace m.a.
1 pithing needle
1 turn/burn
3 rest in peace
1 essence scatter
2 wear/tear
I've really poured over this list, checked out all the speculated opposition, and crunched all the numbers several times now. I think it looks good on paper, but haven't tested it yet. Looking for some outside oppinoins. What do yall think?
Bident might be better as Jace. I got utterly destroyed by the card during pre-release -- I think it's good enough for constructed. If you're a little bit ahead, bident will catapult you to a victory. If you're getting in and drawing cards, then you'll be able to play 1 or 2 more creatures each turn, and draw even more cards, and get in for even more damage, and draw even more cards. With the cheap 4/4's and 5/5's, it's "must attack" ability is very relevant.
This deck risks not having enough inevitability against Aetherling and Maze's end style control decks. Hopefully the card draw from Prime Speaker, Bident, and revelation are enough to offset this. Angel of Serenity is good here because it can buy back Zegana in the control matchup. Bow of Nylea's 'put 4 back' ability gives us the ability to just draw-step-mill that kind of deck if we need to, although it will be difficult to do so if they have an opportunity to land aetherling.
The removal suite is very flexible. Selesnya Charm and detention sphere can handle most of the threats that get past our creatures. Azorius charm doesn't care how big a creature is either, or if it's indestructible.
This is the first thing I'm going to test for Theros standard.
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
I kind of like it but, man, you are REALLY counting on that Aetherling to win you your games. Standard now has an Instant speed planeswalker kill spell and almost every deck that can will be running some SB enchantment hate too deal with God cards. Thats 3/4 of your wincons dealt with without even breaking a sweat. It will certainly control your opponent but you have too remember too win at some point. You either need to bite the bullet and double up on all of your win cards or focus down on one MB and side into the others if your worried about pithing needles and such.
That's kinda the reason for the slight excess of counterspells. Tho the assemble t.l. is gonna b a stratigic win con; if the see it I'll sb it out to leave those hate cards dead in their hand and if they don't then I'm gonna leave it in to catch em by suprise n roll over them. Thats why its a 1 of. Asfar as the planeswalkers go, I chose them because they are going to have a tendancy to protect themselves from the agro threat and as I said, I hope to keep the destruction spells off of them w/ a pluthera of counterspells. This seems to b the most rounded control deck I have seen. I've been looking at esper as well but where r/w/u runs burn, esper is kinda stuck w/ just spot removal and I think it will leave them with a lot of dead cards in hand against other control type decks. I believe burn is going to be much more versital in all match ups.
Yeah, this is kinda of a concern for me as well. I have been playing something simmilar for a while now with a lot of sucess. The loss of snapcaster is pretty devistating but I'm hoping that scry will give consistancy to smooth out my draw; quality over quanity. The most devistating card for me to play against was slaughter games, that's the purpose of the diversity in kill cons vs the multiple coppies of fewer card names. Once I figured that out I was back on the road to sucess. I will be testing this list soon and let yall know if my suspecions are correct.
This is a very heavy curve. 13 to 15 4-8 cmc cards. Has anyone tested against fast R/x aggro with a good list? I would be worried about surviving the early game without a turn 4 verdict.
I'm not sure if 4 win conditions is enough. However, it might be with 4 Sphinx's Revelation. I think, without think twice, 4 sphinx is really imperative. You want to hit one EVERY mid game.
This is a very heavy curve. 13 to 15 4-8 cmc cards. Has anyone tested against fast R/x aggro with a good list? I would be worried about surviving the early game without a turn 4 verdict.
I'm not sure if 4 win conditions is enough. However, it might be with 4 Sphinx's Revelation. I think, without think twice, 4 sphinx is really imperative. You want to hit one EVERY mid game.
Slaughter games only sees 2 win cons in this decklist. Not that its bad, but this card is a huge speedbump for all heavy control decks. Scry also helps the consistancy of control now and we should use it to our fullest advantage. The only times I have ever lost a tourney was to that card, or bad draw. I think we can fix both of these problems in the future format with the blessings wizards has bestowed us with in theros.
having a hard time coming up with a solid decklist with no info on the meta
that being said from the cards we have available in standard I think R is weak for Control and that 3 colors might not work if Burning Earth is popular
we obviously have some awesome U cards and the 2nd strongest is W followed closely by B and honestly I am not an esper fan but I do think that would be where its at if you were to go 3 colors
things to consider:
hi guys, do you think that Izzet Control is strong enough to be a deck by itself or is it not good enough?
My friend and I are working on a new control deck to use and we are trying to build izzet control, but we were just testing around and were just wondering if people think its strong enough to stand on its own or if better to go ahead and add another color.
So I'm trying to put together a U/W control deck. The thing as a whole looks nice and all, but I have my fears. The deck relies a lot on AEtherling to close out games for me. A well placed Pithing Needle/Slaughtergames will nerf me to hell.
That being said, what are some other win-cons I can put into it?
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EDH: URJhoira of the GhituUR(Under con.) BMaralen of the MornsongB UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB Standard: UMono U DevotionU Casual: GPrimordial Hydra JankinessG
Here's a Rakdos control I've been working on. What are your thoughts on it? Its pretty heavily inspired by the Rakdos control thread around here, but I would like to make it the best it can possibly be.
Render Silent is necessary rather than Counterflux
Why would you run Render Silence over Counterflux?
― Oscar Levant
-Decks Testing-
RockstarsBG
Deck | Thread
I would run more dissolve over either of them. I don't like the extra specific mana cost.
I also feel like scry 1 is the best of the choice of marginal upside, but that's up for debate.
― Oscar Levant
-Decks Testing-
RockstarsBG
Deck | Thread
I'm running r/w/u with 4 different win cons and an extra in sb.
1-aetherling
1-elspeth
1-assemble the liegions
1-jace a.o.t. (using it to cast one of their kill cons; suprise!)
Sb
2 jace m.a.
What do yall think?
Im running Aetherling, Elspeth, ashiok,jace ma
Since I'll be doing esper ill have blood baron, Obzedat, aetherling, elspeth, ashiok, and jace MA to choose from. Not worried about slaughter games.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
What?
While I agree with the response in regards to Render Silent, Counterflux is vastly easier to cast than dissolve. Double Symbols are harder to hit than a singular of two specific symbols.
That said, Scry 1 on dissolve is very good. I personally like a 2-2 split between flux and dissolve. Counterflux is much relevant in particular match ups of course and against any blue deck, and particularly control is vastly surperior to Dissolve.
Counterflux actually has 3 specific symbols...:symu::symu::symr:
Though I agree with you on it being much more relevant in particular match ups, which is why I'm packing two in the side.
On another note, how many lands is everyone running?
― Oscar Levant
-Decks Testing-
RockstarsBG
Deck | Thread
It feels okay but I'm still feeling out the correct number of basics, I want more because ideally I want turn 2 and turn 4 to be a untapped land. As a entire list looking something like this
Any luck with Thassa?
U better not considering JAoT as a wincon. He is not. Even though he can tutor your win con, it need 4 turn alive at least to tuor. He's not a wincon. He is a CA engine. You never consider tutors as win con right? Same goes with jace.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
Assuming you're running esper and your meta is going to be full of rakdos sporting slaughter games we have answers for that. Duress and thoughtseize for example. American control you're hosed though lol. I do like that cure spell though. Better than dimir charm at least lol.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Ummmm if I'm gonna cast a spell to win a game that late into it.... it ain't gonna be mine.... thundermaw hellkite made a great win con aginst any deck that was worth pumping jace to that point. Otherways he's a mini fact or fiction... ya know , for the strict esper, or azouras players out there.
4 omenspeaser
4 magma jet
4 supreme verdict
3 syncopate
3 disolve
3 sphinx's rev
3 azouras charm
2 warleaders helix
2 mizzium mortars
2 turn/burn
1 steam augary
1 jace a.o.t.
1 elspeth
1 aetherling
1 assemble the leigon
4 steamvents
4 hallowed fountain
4 sacred foundry
4 temple of triumph
2 azouras guildgate
2 izzet guildgate
3 island
1 mountain
1 plain
Sideboard:
1 d. Sphere
2 renounce the guilds
2 counterflux
2 jace m.a.
1 pithing needle
1 turn/burn
3 rest in peace
1 essence scatter
2 wear/tear
I've really poured over this list, checked out all the speculated opposition, and crunched all the numbers several times now. I think it looks good on paper, but haven't tested it yet. Looking for some outside oppinoins. What do yall think?
4 Selesnya Charm
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Detention Sphere
4 Loxodon Smiter
1 Bow of Nylea
2 Bident of Thassa
3 Advent of the Wurm
2 Armada Wurm
2 Prime Speaker Zegana
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Temple Garden
4 Breeding Pool
4 Temple of Mystery
4 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Azorius Guildgate
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Pithing Needle
1 Sundering Growth
1 Annul
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Gainsay
1 Wasteland Viper
1 Yoked Ox
1 Sensory Deprivation
2 Celestial Flare
2 Supreme Verdict
Bident might be better as Jace. I got utterly destroyed by the card during pre-release -- I think it's good enough for constructed. If you're a little bit ahead, bident will catapult you to a victory. If you're getting in and drawing cards, then you'll be able to play 1 or 2 more creatures each turn, and draw even more cards, and get in for even more damage, and draw even more cards. With the cheap 4/4's and 5/5's, it's "must attack" ability is very relevant.
This deck risks not having enough inevitability against Aetherling and Maze's end style control decks. Hopefully the card draw from Prime Speaker, Bident, and revelation are enough to offset this. Angel of Serenity is good here because it can buy back Zegana in the control matchup. Bow of Nylea's 'put 4 back' ability gives us the ability to just draw-step-mill that kind of deck if we need to, although it will be difficult to do so if they have an opportunity to land aetherling.
The removal suite is very flexible. Selesnya Charm and detention sphere can handle most of the threats that get past our creatures. Azorius charm doesn't care how big a creature is either, or if it's indestructible.
This is the first thing I'm going to test for Theros standard.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
That's kinda the reason for the slight excess of counterspells. Tho the assemble t.l. is gonna b a stratigic win con; if the see it I'll sb it out to leave those hate cards dead in their hand and if they don't then I'm gonna leave it in to catch em by suprise n roll over them. Thats why its a 1 of. Asfar as the planeswalkers go, I chose them because they are going to have a tendancy to protect themselves from the agro threat and as I said, I hope to keep the destruction spells off of them w/ a pluthera of counterspells. This seems to b the most rounded control deck I have seen. I've been looking at esper as well but where r/w/u runs burn, esper is kinda stuck w/ just spot removal and I think it will leave them with a lot of dead cards in hand against other control type decks. I believe burn is going to be much more versital in all match ups.
4 Supreme Verdict
This is a very heavy curve. 13 to 15 4-8 cmc cards. Has anyone tested against fast R/x aggro with a good list? I would be worried about surviving the early game without a turn 4 verdict.
Here's my list.
8 Plains
4 Azorius Guildgate
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Azorius charm
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Detention sphere
2 Jace, Architect of though
2 Elspeth
2 Aetherling
I'm not sure if 4 win conditions is enough. However, it might be with 4 Sphinx's Revelation. I think, without think twice, 4 sphinx is really imperative. You want to hit one EVERY mid game.
Slaughter games only sees 2 win cons in this decklist. Not that its bad, but this card is a huge speedbump for all heavy control decks. Scry also helps the consistancy of control now and we should use it to our fullest advantage. The only times I have ever lost a tourney was to that card, or bad draw. I think we can fix both of these problems in the future format with the blessings wizards has bestowed us with in theros.
that being said from the cards we have available in standard I think R is weak for Control and that 3 colors might not work if Burning Earth is popular
we obviously have some awesome U cards and the 2nd strongest is W followed closely by B and honestly I am not an esper fan but I do think that would be where its at if you were to go 3 colors
things to consider:
White
Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, Azorius Charm, Celestial Flare, Angel of Serenity, Render Silent, Detention Sphere , Blind Obedience, Planar Cleansing
Black
Desecration Demon, Thoughtsieze, Underworld Connections, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, Doom blade, Hero's Downfall, Mind Grind, Psychic Strike
I'm not going to list red because I feel it is sub-par for control in theros (in my opinion)
after seeing Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver I feel like mill can really be a wincon with her, Jace, Memory adept and Psychic Strike you could probably mill them swiftly.
another direction I've been thinking about is [CARD]Haunted Plate Mail
[/CARD] and Aetherling and/or Angel of Serenity looping fun
Thoughts?
3rd at Wisconsin States 2012
Standard:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next Lvl ZombiesB//
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JUND Whedon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks to DNC @ Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Sig.
My friend and I are working on a new control deck to use and we are trying to build izzet control, but we were just testing around and were just wondering if people think its strong enough to stand on its own or if better to go ahead and add another color.
Help/thoughts appreciated guys
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
That being said, what are some other win-cons I can put into it?
URJhoira of the GhituUR(Under con.)
BMaralen of the MornsongB
UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB
Standard:
UMono U DevotionU
Casual:
GPrimordial Hydra JankinessG
If you bothered to read a few of the other posts in this thread you may know that!
3rd at Wisconsin States 2012
Standard:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next Lvl ZombiesB//
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JUND Whedon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks to DNC @ Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Sig.
4 Desecration Demon
2 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Lifebane Zombie
1 Underworld Cerberus
2 Liliana of the Dark Realms
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Devour Flesh
2 Doom Blade
2 Dreadbore
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Pharika's Cure
2 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Read the Bones
1 Whip of Erebos
6 Mountain
2 Rakdos Guildgate
12 Swamp
2 Duress
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Quag Sickness
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Shattering Blow
2 Sire of Insanity
3 Thoughtseize
Here's a Rakdos control I've been working on. What are your thoughts on it? Its pretty heavily inspired by the Rakdos control thread around here, but I would like to make it the best it can possibly be.
Standard:
GBW Siege Rhino Midrange
Commander
Playing:
UGB Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
Working On:
B Mirri, The Cursed
UG Vorel Of The Hull Clade