redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
I am also considering Frostburn Weird in Reckoner's slot. Lower curve, less power against midranges and similiar capability of aggroing out. He dies to my Anger of the Gods though - and I'm still not sure if that's good or bad.
Generally, my main answer to your deck is Renounce the Guilds (against any cool card you play), Mizzium Mortars (against Blood Baron) and Chained to the Rocks (anything except of exiled Obzedat).
My take on BW vs RW controlling midrange is that I would theorize that RW has a better game against aggro, but BW probably has a better game against control.
Both decks have the threat quality to put blue control on its back feet, but black supporting those threats with disruption probably gives it that edge. That disruption is also far better at dealing with Revelation and Jace than anything RW can do.
Both have spot removal for a creature rush, but RW having access to Anger to really tidy up the board early before the beats come down probably give it the edge there. With BW's card advantage causing it pain and Helix being a great combination of taking out a guy with some life gain to stretch into the later turns, I would really expect RW to perform better vs aggro decks.
As far as the matchup between them, since I'm just theorizing here anyway, I would think it's very close. We both have answers for everything the other plays, and both of those answers are sometimes only a 4 of (red has 4 mortars as the only thing to handle BBoV, but black has 4 Demise as the only thing to handle walkers directly). Black has the edge in that the hand disruption is entirely relevant, red has the edge in that it's top end trumps almost everything out of black simultaneously (Elspeth -3 kills the whole B board other than an exiled Obzy). We can both board for the other, which is an area both decks are working on, so I won't claim who can bring in more things and which would be better post board. I would say, though, that Obzy is probably the key to deciding the slight edge in BW's favor. It would take an Assemble a turn just to start chump blocking him and there's 0 we can do MD to stop the 2 point drain every turn.
That's my 2 cents. I would say that also means if you have the luxury of building both, wait until you get a sense of the field before deciding. If the field is all mid range, have fun making a decision. You should have brought a turbo fog Maze's End deck...
I was just kidding about Maze Fog, I don't think that deck really has teeth. It might beat control, maybe, but it's pretty poor vs midrange (Purph, Burning Earth, Obzy, hand disruption) and actually not even that good against any red aggro. After at least 2 unfettered turns thanks to all of Maze's lands coming in tapped, they finally fog on the third to fourth turn... and a Skullcrack blows them out. When I read that people were testing that deck, I thought there must be mass forgetting that 'Crack doesn't just stop lifegain, it also stops prevention. That and they're just heavy enough burn to overcome fogs. So it beats what? U control and GW? Unless U control decks just start dominating, I don't expect to see Maze Fog go anywhere at all. The possible popularity of that deck, though, is one of the best arguments for keeping Purph in the controlling list. My current list, though, would be bringing in 3 Needles and 3 Burning Earths for them, and the lists I've seen of that deck would basically fold to either of those cards... the only way I've seen in their lists to deal with those cards is Ratchet, and it's slow to kill Earth and can itself be shut down by Needle.
When talking about our ways to deal with BBoV, I did neglect Elspeth, but I do think it will be hard to keep a Swallower on the board against them. They have plenty of spot removal to move it out of the way. Elspeth, though, can be top decked and immediately kill it, so there's definitely that. Also, in my latest build, I actually have Swallower and Stormbreath, so might be able to overload the spot removal and if so, will have a prot W guy to kill BBoV, block Obzy or Alms till he goes nuclear, then kill them too, and only really have a problem with DD. And the token generators and Chained love DD, so hopefully I'll have one of them down.
Oh I don't think MazeFog is a deck but decks of that nature are why I like having purph in the main. It is proactively powerful and something very few main decks can do anything about. Game 2 I can side out purph for the niche matchup related cards. Trying to answer everything on an undefined meta is impossible, but doing something strong yourself is more profitable.
How did these boros decks do though? I noticed a lot of esper decks that have been doing well. Which is unfortunate, I have had a difficult time getting around it. I almost always force a game 3 but rarely win game 1.
They all use Detention Sphere to deal with permanents, I think a couple main Wear // Tear may actually be something to consider. Also, there's enough decks where it wouldn't be dead that a main Pithing Needle could also be a solution.
I would rather have Glare personally if I was going to main anything. Really it seems usefull in most matchups as naya, esper, BW, and UW are so popular and can hit so many vital things in those decks. But for now I'll leave it in the sideboard, it's still not worth it I don't think, especially with rdw being a big deal right now.
I would rather have Glare personally if I was going to main anything. Really it seems usefull in most matchups as naya, esper, BW, and UW are so popular and can hit so many vital things in those decks. But for now I'll leave it in the sideboard, it's still not worth it I don't think, especially with rdw being a big deal right now.
just because RDW won a SCG the weekend of a new set doesn't mean it's a big deal. my FNM had esper control take over. i'd wait a few more weeks to really find out what's a big deal and what's not
It's worth noting gb zombies won the first major invitational of inn/rtr standard.
What I am excited about I'd there wasn't a deck in the top 16 that I would feel terrible sitting across. We have answers for everything but need to wait to know which ones to play
My targets for this deck are RDW and UW/Esper as those are both extremely powerful at the moment (and look to be for some time).
To explain some of the odd choices:
Tajic -- always survives verdict and anger of the gods. Pretty much impossible for RDW to answer. Is turned on by 1/x tokens even after Jace, architect get's +1
frontline medic -- counter revelation. Swing with 2 tokens/creatures then play anger of the gods with all my creatures indestructible
precinct captain -- more consistent than young pyromancer. Stops RDW with first strike (or token after cracking back)
legion's initiative -- buffs white heliod and precinct captains butts so they survive electrickery and similar. Makes assemble the legions tokens 2/2. Allows me to survive verdict (I don't care too much about tokens since all the token engines in this deck are infinite -- that is, unlike young pyromancer, they don't require me to play a limited resource)
heliod -- gives vigilance. Allows me to have 2 huge indestructibles rather than one. Most control can't deal with 5 indestructible gods. 2/1 tokens can kill jace. (probably needs to be a 1-of)
And I'm supposed to say that "it's good because he at least tried to create his own deck?" God, it hurts my eyes.
You can't really support any god with devotion so it's NOT about having indestructible creatures. It's about having completely useless pernaments on the field.
You play high-curve non interactive deck with combo wincon. Without any kind of draw or dig. Just BELIEVING you will cast it one day, without nearly any support plan.
Cards like Precinct, Tajic, Legion's Initiative or Frontline Medic just don't belong in here at all. If you really like them, consider an Aggro deck.
As overall, seriously, reconsider your philosophy of deckbuilding. It's NOT about slapping random cards one at each other and making sure their colors fit.
Rather than simply contradicting and insulting, could you provide any specific reasoning?
My targets for this deck are RDW and UW/Esper as those are both extremely powerful at the moment (and look to be for some time).
To explain some of the odd choices:
Tajic -- always survives verdict and anger of the gods. Pretty much impossible for RDW to answer. Is turned on by 1/x tokens even after Jace, architect get's +1
frontline medic -- counter revelation. Swing with 2 tokens/creatures then play anger of the gods with all my creatures indestructible
precinct captain -- more consistent than young pyromancer. Stops RDW with first strike (or token after cracking back)
legion's initiative -- buffs white heliod and precinct captains butts so they survive electrickery and similar. Makes assemble the legions tokens 2/2. Allows me to survive verdict (I don't care too much about tokens since all the token engines in this deck are infinite -- that is, unlike young pyromancer, they don't require me to play a limited resource)
heliod -- gives vigilance. Allows me to have 2 huge indestructibles rather than one. Most control can't deal with 5 indestructible gods. 2/1 tokens can kill jace. (probably needs to be a 1-of)
From the top:
1 - Heliod, God of the Sun. For four mana, he does nothing the turn he comes into play. You only have 22 cards in your deck that contain white mana symbols to make him active, and many of them cost more than him or are creatures that will likely die soon. Sure for 4 mana you get a token, but you aren't doing anything during the earlier turns to make it relevant. Your best hope for Heliod is to play him on turn 4 and make a token on turn 5. That's a 9 mana 2/1.
2 - Purphoros, God of the Forge while I do apprechiate the synergy he has with Assemble, you only have one. If your main focus is to try and get Heliod+Purh instead of Purph+Elspeth or Purph+Assemble you need to realize that Heliod takes 4 mana a turn to make a single token whereas the other two costs zero additional mana after they come into play and churn out many many tokens which is way more powerful and worth the risk of a dead card. Also, like Heliod, in your list Purph will never be active. You have 13 cards to try and activate it with.
3 - Precinct Captain sure he makes tokens but he's not coming down until turn 3 with your mana base and by then a 2/2 first striker is just irrelevant. You don't have a high number of other weenies to support him so he's just kind of there. As for a comparison to Young Pyromancer, he isn't even in the updated lists in this thread.
4 - Tajic, Blade of the Legion is a terrible terrible card. You are right that he'll never die against RDW but against them he's a 2/2 for four. They're just going to kill you anyway by attacking around him, or faltering him with their various 2 drops. Against U/W control (since you mentioned verdict) you still have to worry about detention sphere, celestial flare, Azorius Charm, Essence scatter, syncopate, dissolve, and last breath. Each of those cards were multiples in U/W lists that did well last weekend.
5 -Aurelia, the Warleader you only have 16 creatures, and none of them are particularly powerful or have fun saboteur abilities. Therefore I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish.
6 - Boros Reckoner good card is good, but is he defensive? offensive? Your deck isn't really focused enough to use him effectively.
9 -Legion's Initative Again, you only play 16 creatures. Crusade works best when swarming which is something you just aren't dong.
10 - Assemble the Legion This card will win you the game if you can stall an aggressive opponent long enough or manage to land it against a control deck. Unfortunately you only play 1, don't have enough tools to stall out aggro or enough true threats to run a control deck out of answers.
11 - Mizzium Mortars Again, a good card, but your deck isn't really doing anything to capitalize on it. Is it there to remove a blocker while you're being aggressive? No, you can't really be aggressive. Is it there to clear the board against an aggro opponent so your more powerful cards can take over? No, you aren't really playing inevitability and probably can't survive to 6 mana.
12 - Anger of the Gods of the 16 creatures you play this kills 11. You really aren't ever getting to a devotion of 5.
13 - Flames of the Firebrand is a solid card which can 2 for 1 weenie decks, be they white or sligh. Yet you don't really have a means to stabilize against anything else they play.
14 - Warleader's Helix While it is a strong card, with your mana base it's probably either coming out on turn 5 or only gaining you 2 life. Both are too slow against aggro.
15 - Mana You have 8 lands which have to come in tapped and 4 which you probably want, with a near even split of basics. Your deck isn't focused either on white or on red so you need to split it this way which means sometimes you draw well but most of the time you will either a) get a glut of dual lands and be 1-2 turns behind an opponent's curve because of tapped ness or b) will draw a bunch of basics and not have the colors you need.
16 - Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx I don't think you'll ever have devotion higher than 2-3 which makes this card dead and not producing any colored mana.
17 - For all intents and purposes your curve starts at 3. Even control decks right now are shoving as much action into the 2 slot as possible to try and keep up with aggressive decks, and they aren't usually succeeding. Your list isn't defensive enough to survive. Against a midrange opponent, such as B/W or B/W/R or Naya their cards just flat out outclass yours. Against control you don't have threat density, most of what you're doing they just don't care about. When building a deck you need to think about how you want games to play out and then try and create a list which follows your plan each and every game. This leads to more 4 ofs and many more cards which are redundant.
And I'm supposed to say that "it's good because he at least tried to create his own deck?" God, it hurts my eyes. Counterargument
You can't really support any god with devotion so it's NOT about having indestructible creatures. It's about having completely useless pernaments on the field. Counterargument
You play high-curve non interactive deck with combo wincon. Without any kind of draw or dig. Just BELIEVING you will cast it one day, without nearly any support plan. Refutation (not quotes, but this is basic strategy, aka common knowledge within our community so not needed.)
Cards like Precinct, Tajic, Legion's Initiative or Frontline Medic just don't belong in here at all. If you really like them, consider an Aggro deck. Counterargument
As overall, seriously, reconsider your philosophy of deckbuilding. It's NOT about slapping random cards one at each other and making sure their colors fit.Contradiction
Actually I still think this one was assholish. More like contradiction than counterargument. But it's the opener - so, whatever.
But it is an opener. The phrase "counterargument" doesn't demand you provide evidence/reasoning in every single statement, just that every statement you make is baked up.
Breaking your statment up into base parts you have:
A) Sarcastic offensive yarpus comment
and
B) Thesis. "Simply because a deck is constructed in a unique way doesn't give it merit or competitiveness."
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
EDIT: @yarpus
To state clearly, this is a deck specifically targeted at beat a meta consisting primarily of RDW, Esper, and UW. It tries to be aggro-midrange by default, but has a sideboard which transforms it into a midrange-control deck that specifically targets UW and Esper win conditions.
Hey look, there's yarpus. Was wondering when he would comment.
From the top:
1 - Heliod, God of the Sun. For four mana, he does nothing the turn he comes into play. You only have 22 cards in your deck that contain white mana symbols to make him active, and many of them cost more than him or are creatures that will likely die soon. Sure for 4 mana you get a token, but you aren't doing anything during the earlier turns to make it relevant. Your best hope for Heliod is to play him on turn 4 and make a token on turn 5. That's a 9 mana 2/1.
2 - Purphoros, God of the Forge while I do apprechiate the synergy he has with Assemble, you only have one. If your main focus is to try and get Heliod+Purh instead of Purph+Elspeth or Purph+Assemble you need to realize that Heliod takes 4 mana a turn to make a single token whereas the other two costs zero additional mana after they come into play and churn out many many tokens which is way more powerful and worth the risk of a dead card. Also, like Heliod, in your list Purph will never be active. You have 13 cards to try and activate it with.
3 - Precinct Captain sure he makes tokens but he's not coming down until turn 3 with your mana base and by then a 2/2 first striker is just irrelevant. You don't have a high number of other weenies to support him so he's just kind of there. As for a comparison to Young Pyromancer, he isn't even in the updated lists in this thread.
4 - Tajic, Blade of the Legion is a terrible terrible card. You are right that he'll never die against RDW but against them he's a 2/2 for four. They're just going to kill you anyway by attacking around him, or faltering him with their various 2 drops. Against U/W control (since you mentioned verdict) you still have to worry about detention sphere, celestial flare, Azorius Charm, Essence scatter, syncopate, dissolve, and last breath. Each of those cards were multiples in U/W lists that did well last weekend.
5 -Aurelia, the Warleader you only have 16 creatures, and none of them are particularly powerful or have fun saboteur abilities. Therefore I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish.
6 - Boros Reckoner good card is good, but is he defensive? offensive? Your deck isn't really focused enough to use him effectively.
7 - Frontline Medic you play 16 creatures. He's a Gnarled Mass in a world of Watchwolf.
8 - Chained to the Rocks Dead card. You only have 9 mountains in your deck.
9 -Legion's Initative Again, you only play 16 creatures. Crusade works best when swarming which is something you just aren't dong.
10 - Assemble the Legion This card will win you the game if you can stall an aggressive opponent long enough or manage to land it against a control deck. Unfortunately you only play 1, don't have enough tools to stall out aggro or enough true threats to run a control deck out of answers.
11 - Mizzium Mortars Again, a good card, but your deck isn't really doing anything to capitalize on it. Is it there to remove a blocker while you're being aggressive? No, you can't really be aggressive. Is it there to clear the board against an aggro opponent so your more powerful cards can take over? No, you aren't really playing inevitability and probably can't survive to 6 mana.
12 - Anger of the Gods of the 16 creatures you play this kills 11. You really aren't ever getting to a devotion of 5.
13 - Flames of the Firebrand is a solid card which can 2 for 1 weenie decks, be they white or sligh. Yet you don't really have a means to stabilize against anything else they play.
14 - Warleader's Helix While it is a stany combination of 2-3 of my permanents turns rong card, with your mana base it's probably either coming out on turn 5 or only gaining you 2 life. Both are too slow against aggro.
15 - Mana You have 8 lands which have to come in tapped and 4 which you probably want, with a near even split of basics. Your deck isn't focused either on white or on red so you need to split it this way which means sometimes you draw well but most of the time you will either a) get a glut of dual lands and be 1-2 turns behind an opponent's curve because of tapped ness or b) will draw a bunch of basics and not have the colors you need.
16 - Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx I don't think you'll ever have devotion higher than 2-3 which makes this card dead and not producing any colored mana.
17 - For all intents and purposes your curve starts at 3. Even control decks right now are shoving as much action into the 2 slot as possible to try and keep up with aggressive decks, and they aren't usually succeeding. Your list isn't defensive enough to survive. Against a midrange opponent, such as B/W or B/W/R or Naya their cards just flat out outclass yours. Against control you don't have threat density, most of what you're doing they just don't care about. When building a deck you need to think about how you want games to play out and then try and create a list which follows your plan each and every game. This leads to more 4 ofs and many more cards which are redundant.
0. I've also come to the same conclusion about the manabase and have dropped the guildgates for basics. That said, with few T1 plays, I'm most likely to play ETB tapped lands early making my 3-5th lands either basics or shocks (just like decks has been doing for years).
1. I agree that heliod is inferior to purphoros. I've since started playtesting with one. I have a lot of combinations that both turn heliod into a creature and many of these resist removal.
2. purphoros has synergy with 16 other creatures, assemble the legion, and precinct captain.
3. when the manabase is updated, the casting problem becomes less of an issue (to the point however, he sees play in Esper decks that have even worse manabases and more ETB tapped lands)
4. Tajic isn't a broken card, but that doesn't mean he's bad. I have a bunch of cards specifically to deal with things like d-sphere. Celestial flare isn't a great option as I can afford to wait and swing with another creature/token. Calling a card bad because counters exist makes the case that I shouldn't play any card that can be countered. If they waste a counter on tajic, there are more broken cards to play. Last breath definitely becomes an issue, but I believe glare of heresy is a bigger issue for the deck in general. Vs aggro, he's a little overcosted perhaps but once again RDW can't answer him (their only play is act of treason).
5. I'm still not decided on aurelia over stormbreath dragon. Aurelia does more damage, and potentially affects more creatures for one more mana and falling prey to white.
6. Boros reckoner is defensive vs aggro and offensive vs control (seems fairly obvious). Reckoner plus any other permanent turns on the gods.
7. There are only 8 3/x creatures for cmc 3 in the entire red-white card pool. Of these, only 3 have are 3/3 (the other one besides reckoner is ember beast) and survive shock or magma jet. Indestructible is a nice perk in games where I can take the offensive. A counterspell for the control card that almost instantly puts the game out of reach (revelation) just makes it better.
8. 9 mountains already makes chained to the rocks on turn 2 a very good possibility. Removing the guildgates (as mentioned above) makes that a little better.
9. I need a decent answer to verdict. The options are basically initiative, boros charm, or rootborn defenses. Initiative loses any tokens I have and doesn't offer the late-game reach (except by triggering a god), but pumps my guys vs aggro, adds devotion, and also escapes merciless eviction, cyclonic rift, aetherize, and even cards like azorius charm (eg. trading initiative instead of a god so it can attack next turn).
10. One assemble is in sideboard. I want 2 vs midrange and control, but I think the second is a liability vs aggro.
11. Mizzium mortars is turn 2 removal and turn 6 one-sided board wipe. I would play it the same way that UWR has been playing it for months.
12. As you point out, I don't have too many creatures that play on turn 2. If I have one of those in play, I'm probably in a decent board state. If I don't, then an anger of the gods on turn 3 is exactly what I need. If it comes down later, tajic is immune, reckoner still deals damage to the face, and having 2 other swingers with medic turns it into a much cheaper mini-mortars.
13. I like flames of the firebrand, but I agree that cheaper burn (shock or magma jet) is quite possibly better. I haven't tested that yet, but I intend to.
14. Warleader's helix gains life in a deck without much lifegain and kills something big at instant speed. I don't see any issues here.
15. see response 0
16. I agree with you about Nykthos being a blank a lot of the time. That (and it being legendary) is why it's a 1-of. With no other taps for colorless cards in the deck (specifically mutavault), it only changes the early curve by a fraction of a percent while offering a huge mana advantage much more of the time.
17. I have 12 1-2 drops. If I change flames of the firebrand and drop one heliod, that will give me the ability to bump that number up to 15 (1 in 4). That seems like a decent number.
And I'm supposed to say that "it's good because he at least tried to create his own deck?" God, it hurts my eyes.responding to tone
You can't really support any god with devotion so it's NOT about having indestructible creatures. It's about having completely useless pernaments on the field.contradiction -- no evidence proving my implicit claim is false
You play high-curve non interactive deck with combo wincon. Without any kind of draw or dig. Just BELIEVING you will cast it one day, without nearly any support plan.counterargument -- common knowledge in no way implies correctness of logic
Cards like Precinct, Tajic, Legion's Initiative or Frontline Medic just don't belong in here at all. If you really like them, consider an Aggro deck. contradiction -- no evidence or reasoning as to why those cards don't belong
As overall, seriously, reconsider your philosophy of deckbuilding. It's NOT about slapping random cards one at each other and making sure their colors fit.ad-hominem -- implying my deckbuilding skills are lacking despite without addressing the deck itself
EDIT: @yarpus
To state clearly, this is a deck specifically targeted at beat a meta consisting primarily of RDW, Esper, and UW.
I will prove, through my refutation that your list not only doesn't beat the aforementioned decks, but in a series of 100 matches I predict your list will win less than 5% of the games vs any of the lists.
but has a sideboard which transforms it into a midrange-control deck that specifically targets UW and Esper win conditions.
And does so in a way that is total fail. No card advantage, and slow/unwieldy/easily answered threats.
For reference I am going to be using the lists provided by SCGOpen in Worcester as it is the largest official tournament to feature the format in question. I am going to be using the top 8 decklists for reference due to time constraints. The lists can be found in their entirety here.
Here is the decklist you are presuming. I am replacing Flames with shock and removing guildgates in favor of 2 of each basic as you mentioned, Since you are moving to 1 Heliod, I am just upping the purph count because you haven't said what else you were bringing in.
Deck vs Self:
Your mana needs are crazy and unrealistic. Before you say anything, this is a paradigm of costs not weighted by the turn in which you may cast them.
1: R (Shock) W (Chained)
2: WW (Captain) 1R (Mortars) RW (Initiative)
3: 2W (Medic) 1RR (Anger)
4: Tajic (2RW) Helix (2RW) Heliod (3W) Purph (3R)
5: Assemble (3RW)
6: Aurelia (2RRWW)
You need 15.5 red sources and 15.0 white sources in order to expect to hit the right ratio of mana.
So by pure ratio you're only off by a little bit. Unfortunately you're trying to beat RDW and you can't wait until turn 3-4 to cast that Captain or the shock/mortars, so I'm going to weight your removal and early creatures higher in the analysis becuase you need to do something on turn 2 to win.
To cast those spells on time (turns 1-3) you need 17.5 White sources and 18.5 Red sources. So you either need to go back to the guildgates and waste a turn or you're not drawing your lands on time, and wasting turns. So by default your deck will be able to cast your spells 1-2 turns late. I'll be generous and say 1.
Owen's deck is designed to do one thing every single game. By the time his second turn is over he has three creatures on the board. He does this either by dropping three one drops onto the field or by going one drop into Burning-Tree Emissary into another creature.
Since you can't cast anything until turn 3 reliably, that means on the draw you've already taken 14 damage by the time you get to mortar something or play that precinct captain. You're at 6, and need to anger in order to have a hope, and that hope means him not drawing burn or pheonix for the rest of the match.
vs Owen, you lose.
vs Phillip
Phillip's list is about a full turn slower on the cloak but is capable of hitting for incredibly large numbers with Fanatic. On the play if you draw perfectly you can shock his turn 1 or 2 creature, mortars his next one, and chianed one after that. The problem is you only have 11 spot removal spells and you need 3 or 4 of them in the first 3-4 turns of the game. If you let something such as a Reckoner live long enough for him to untap and Fanatic you, you're going to lose. Also, you have no card draw. So going 1-1 against a Pheonix will also loose you the game.
I want to take a quick moment to say how much I love this list. It really is a thing of beauty.
Since you have no card draw, and a number of dead cards (namely your removal) and you will lose if he casts Sphinx's Revelation so you have to kill him before he can. Unfortunately your fastest start is a turn 3 precinct captain.
"BUT MY SIDEBOARD CARDS!" You may ask, the problem with your plan is, you're trying to out control a blue deck. Ain't gonna work. They have coutnerspells and Revelation, you don't even have any card draw or a way to get a 2-1. Even in game 2 (there won't be a 3) U/W could mulligan to four and pull away.
He plays 18 removal spells, you have 16 creatures and 1 non-creature threat. He plays sphinx's revelatoin, you have no card draw. Your fastest clock is turn 3 captain, his early removal spell is probably turn 3 as well and a turn 5 verdict wrecks your day. If you manage to get a turn 3 captain into a turn 4 legion's initiative and have mana up turn 5 to protect the captain, he may have to spend 3-4 cards to stabalize instead of 1-2.
Post board, you fold to Blood Baron. I know you have those 3 mortars but his Sin Collector/Thoughseize/Syncopate/Negate package means you'll never resolve it.
vs Christian, you lose.
vsDavis
Game1 you fold to Obzedat. You have 0 answers and are nowhere near fast enough to race him. The only way you don't loose to Obzedat game 1 is if you lose to Blood Baron first.
Game 2. Same as game 1. You can't beat Obzedat, you can't out draw a revelation deck, and your threats are too slow and unwieldy to even place a slight straing on the volume of removal/draw Esper has.
For a guy who is having a discussion to have a discussion, it seems to have help the rest of us see a few of the decks we're up against, even tho he's making everyone rage in his stubbornness.
Thank you for the break down of those decks.
Oh I took out the 2 ogre battledriver for 2 elspeth, sun's champion and the deck is working better. I just have to remember when to -3 instead of +1 when i play her.
For a guy who is having a discussion to have a discussion, it seems to have help the rest of us see a few of the decks we're up against, even tho he's making everyone rage in his stubbornness.
Thank you for the break down of those decks.
Oh I took out the 2 ogre battledriver for 2 elspeth, sun's champion and the deck is working better. I just have to remember when to -3 instead of +1 when i play her.
C'mon... this ain't the 60s.
In regards to a deck to test against, I'm going to throw my version in the ring for some free playtesting:
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Ember Swallower
3 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Hammer of Purphoros
4 Magma Jet
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Warleader's Helix
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Plains
11 Mountain
No SB atm.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
4 games against midrange. 2-2. Definitely a more even matchup than my previous tests. Thanks. Haven't tested sideboarding.
HA! Got you to play Elspeth at least!
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Both decks have the threat quality to put blue control on its back feet, but black supporting those threats with disruption probably gives it that edge. That disruption is also far better at dealing with Revelation and Jace than anything RW can do.
Both have spot removal for a creature rush, but RW having access to Anger to really tidy up the board early before the beats come down probably give it the edge there. With BW's card advantage causing it pain and Helix being a great combination of taking out a guy with some life gain to stretch into the later turns, I would really expect RW to perform better vs aggro decks.
As far as the matchup between them, since I'm just theorizing here anyway, I would think it's very close. We both have answers for everything the other plays, and both of those answers are sometimes only a 4 of (red has 4 mortars as the only thing to handle BBoV, but black has 4 Demise as the only thing to handle walkers directly). Black has the edge in that the hand disruption is entirely relevant, red has the edge in that it's top end trumps almost everything out of black simultaneously (Elspeth -3 kills the whole B board other than an exiled Obzy). We can both board for the other, which is an area both decks are working on, so I won't claim who can bring in more things and which would be better post board. I would say, though, that Obzy is probably the key to deciding the slight edge in BW's favor. It would take an Assemble a turn just to start chump blocking him and there's 0 we can do MD to stop the 2 point drain every turn.
That's my 2 cents. I would say that also means if you have the luxury of building both, wait until you get a sense of the field before deciding. If the field is all mid range, have fun making a decision. You should have brought a turbo fog Maze's End deck...
I studied stuff in college. Hard midterms...
I don't think rev should be a consideration for control matches. Ub is just better than uw.
As for BBoV we have more than mortars. Ember Swallower / Elspeth / Renounce/ Celestial Flare all smack him
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
When talking about our ways to deal with BBoV, I did neglect Elspeth, but I do think it will be hard to keep a Swallower on the board against them. They have plenty of spot removal to move it out of the way. Elspeth, though, can be top decked and immediately kill it, so there's definitely that. Also, in my latest build, I actually have Swallower and Stormbreath, so might be able to overload the spot removal and if so, will have a prot W guy to kill BBoV, block Obzy or Alms till he goes nuclear, then kill them too, and only really have a problem with DD. And the token generators and Chained love DD, so hopefully I'll have one of them down.
I studied stuff in college. Hard midterms...
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Frostburn Weird
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
13 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Boros Guildgate
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Warleader's Helix
1 Spear Of Heliod
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Burning Earth
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Wear
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Glare of Heresy
1 Mizzium Mortars
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
I studied stuff in college. Hard midterms...
just because RDW won a SCG the weekend of a new set doesn't mean it's a big deal. my FNM had esper control take over. i'd wait a few more weeks to really find out what's a big deal and what's not
What I am excited about I'd there wasn't a deck in the top 16 that I would feel terrible sitting across. We have answers for everything but need to wait to know which ones to play
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
2 heliod, god of the sun
3 purphoros, god of the forge
creatures(16):
4 precinct captain
3 tajic, blade of the legion
2 aurelia, the warleader
4 boros reckoner
3 frontline medic
enchantments(6):
2 chained to the rocks
3 legion's initiative
1 assemble the legions
3 mizzium mortars
3 anger of the gods
2 flames of the firebrand
2 warleader's helix
land(24):
4 sacred foundry
4 temple of triumph
4 boros guildgate
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
6 plains
5 mountain
--a work in progress--
1 legion's initiative
1 anger of the gods
2 chained to the rocks
1 assemble the legions
3 glare of heresy
2 wear//tear
2 mindsparker
3 pithing needle
My targets for this deck are RDW and UW/Esper as those are both extremely powerful at the moment (and look to be for some time).
To explain some of the odd choices:
Tajic -- always survives verdict and anger of the gods. Pretty much impossible for RDW to answer. Is turned on by 1/x tokens even after Jace, architect get's +1
frontline medic -- counter revelation. Swing with 2 tokens/creatures then play anger of the gods with all my creatures indestructible
precinct captain -- more consistent than young pyromancer. Stops RDW with first strike (or token after cracking back)
legion's initiative -- buffs white heliod and precinct captains butts so they survive electrickery and similar. Makes assemble the legions tokens 2/2. Allows me to survive verdict (I don't care too much about tokens since all the token engines in this deck are infinite -- that is, unlike young pyromancer, they don't require me to play a limited resource)
heliod -- gives vigilance. Allows me to have 2 huge indestructibles rather than one. Most control can't deal with 5 indestructible gods. 2/1 tokens can kill jace. (probably needs to be a 1-of)
Rather than simply contradicting and insulting, could you provide any specific reasoning?
Hey look, there's yarpus. Was wondering when he would comment.
From the top:
1 - Heliod, God of the Sun. For four mana, he does nothing the turn he comes into play. You only have 22 cards in your deck that contain white mana symbols to make him active, and many of them cost more than him or are creatures that will likely die soon. Sure for 4 mana you get a token, but you aren't doing anything during the earlier turns to make it relevant. Your best hope for Heliod is to play him on turn 4 and make a token on turn 5. That's a 9 mana 2/1.
2 - Purphoros, God of the Forge while I do apprechiate the synergy he has with Assemble, you only have one. If your main focus is to try and get Heliod+Purh instead of Purph+Elspeth or Purph+Assemble you need to realize that Heliod takes 4 mana a turn to make a single token whereas the other two costs zero additional mana after they come into play and churn out many many tokens which is way more powerful and worth the risk of a dead card. Also, like Heliod, in your list Purph will never be active. You have 13 cards to try and activate it with.
3 - Precinct Captain sure he makes tokens but he's not coming down until turn 3 with your mana base and by then a 2/2 first striker is just irrelevant. You don't have a high number of other weenies to support him so he's just kind of there. As for a comparison to Young Pyromancer, he isn't even in the updated lists in this thread.
4 - Tajic, Blade of the Legion is a terrible terrible card. You are right that he'll never die against RDW but against them he's a 2/2 for four. They're just going to kill you anyway by attacking around him, or faltering him with their various 2 drops. Against U/W control (since you mentioned verdict) you still have to worry about detention sphere, celestial flare, Azorius Charm, Essence scatter, syncopate, dissolve, and last breath. Each of those cards were multiples in U/W lists that did well last weekend.
5 -Aurelia, the Warleader you only have 16 creatures, and none of them are particularly powerful or have fun saboteur abilities. Therefore I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish.
6 - Boros Reckoner good card is good, but is he defensive? offensive? Your deck isn't really focused enough to use him effectively.
7 - Frontline Medic you play 16 creatures. He's a Gnarled Mass in a world of Watchwolf.
8 - Chained to the Rocks Dead card. You only have 9 mountains in your deck.
9 -Legion's Initative Again, you only play 16 creatures. Crusade works best when swarming which is something you just aren't dong.
10 - Assemble the Legion This card will win you the game if you can stall an aggressive opponent long enough or manage to land it against a control deck. Unfortunately you only play 1, don't have enough tools to stall out aggro or enough true threats to run a control deck out of answers.
11 - Mizzium Mortars Again, a good card, but your deck isn't really doing anything to capitalize on it. Is it there to remove a blocker while you're being aggressive? No, you can't really be aggressive. Is it there to clear the board against an aggro opponent so your more powerful cards can take over? No, you aren't really playing inevitability and probably can't survive to 6 mana.
12 - Anger of the Gods of the 16 creatures you play this kills 11. You really aren't ever getting to a devotion of 5.
13 - Flames of the Firebrand is a solid card which can 2 for 1 weenie decks, be they white or sligh. Yet you don't really have a means to stabilize against anything else they play.
14 - Warleader's Helix While it is a strong card, with your mana base it's probably either coming out on turn 5 or only gaining you 2 life. Both are too slow against aggro.
15 - Mana You have 8 lands which have to come in tapped and 4 which you probably want, with a near even split of basics. Your deck isn't focused either on white or on red so you need to split it this way which means sometimes you draw well but most of the time you will either a) get a glut of dual lands and be 1-2 turns behind an opponent's curve because of tapped ness or b) will draw a bunch of basics and not have the colors you need.
16 - Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx I don't think you'll ever have devotion higher than 2-3 which makes this card dead and not producing any colored mana.
17 - For all intents and purposes your curve starts at 3. Even control decks right now are shoving as much action into the 2 slot as possible to try and keep up with aggressive decks, and they aren't usually succeeding. Your list isn't defensive enough to survive. Against a midrange opponent, such as B/W or B/W/R or Naya their cards just flat out outclass yours. Against control you don't have threat density, most of what you're doing they just don't care about. When building a deck you need to think about how you want games to play out and then try and create a list which follows your plan each and every game. This leads to more 4 ofs and many more cards which are redundant.
~~~~~
~~~~~
Oh! Argument Analysis!!! Let me! Let me! I am a phil minor after all. *dusts off degree*
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
But it is an opener. The phrase "counterargument" doesn't demand you provide evidence/reasoning in every single statement, just that every statement you make is baked up.
Breaking your statment up into base parts you have:
A) Sarcastic offensive yarpus comment
and
B) Thesis. "Simply because a deck is constructed in a unique way doesn't give it merit or competitiveness."
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
You did a pretty thorough job turning this one completely and irrevocably to the dark side.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
You think so? I still am not a fan of mountains in general and I try to be a polite elitist
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
To state clearly, this is a deck specifically targeted at beat a meta consisting primarily of RDW, Esper, and UW. It tries to be aggro-midrange by default, but has a sideboard which transforms it into a midrange-control deck that specifically targets UW and Esper win conditions.
0. I've also come to the same conclusion about the manabase and have dropped the guildgates for basics. That said, with few T1 plays, I'm most likely to play ETB tapped lands early making my 3-5th lands either basics or shocks (just like decks has been doing for years).
1. I agree that heliod is inferior to purphoros. I've since started playtesting with one. I have a lot of combinations that both turn heliod into a creature and many of these resist removal.
2. purphoros has synergy with 16 other creatures, assemble the legion, and precinct captain.
3. when the manabase is updated, the casting problem becomes less of an issue (to the point however, he sees play in Esper decks that have even worse manabases and more ETB tapped lands)
4. Tajic isn't a broken card, but that doesn't mean he's bad. I have a bunch of cards specifically to deal with things like d-sphere. Celestial flare isn't a great option as I can afford to wait and swing with another creature/token. Calling a card bad because counters exist makes the case that I shouldn't play any card that can be countered. If they waste a counter on tajic, there are more broken cards to play. Last breath definitely becomes an issue, but I believe glare of heresy is a bigger issue for the deck in general. Vs aggro, he's a little overcosted perhaps but once again RDW can't answer him (their only play is act of treason).
5. I'm still not decided on aurelia over stormbreath dragon. Aurelia does more damage, and potentially affects more creatures for one more mana and falling prey to white.
6. Boros reckoner is defensive vs aggro and offensive vs control (seems fairly obvious). Reckoner plus any other permanent turns on the gods.
7. There are only 8 3/x creatures for cmc 3 in the entire red-white card pool. Of these, only 3 have are 3/3 (the other one besides reckoner is ember beast) and survive shock or magma jet. Indestructible is a nice perk in games where I can take the offensive. A counterspell for the control card that almost instantly puts the game out of reach (revelation) just makes it better.
8. 9 mountains already makes chained to the rocks on turn 2 a very good possibility. Removing the guildgates (as mentioned above) makes that a little better.
9. I need a decent answer to verdict. The options are basically initiative, boros charm, or rootborn defenses. Initiative loses any tokens I have and doesn't offer the late-game reach (except by triggering a god), but pumps my guys vs aggro, adds devotion, and also escapes merciless eviction, cyclonic rift, aetherize, and even cards like azorius charm (eg. trading initiative instead of a god so it can attack next turn).
10. One assemble is in sideboard. I want 2 vs midrange and control, but I think the second is a liability vs aggro.
11. Mizzium mortars is turn 2 removal and turn 6 one-sided board wipe. I would play it the same way that UWR has been playing it for months.
12. As you point out, I don't have too many creatures that play on turn 2. If I have one of those in play, I'm probably in a decent board state. If I don't, then an anger of the gods on turn 3 is exactly what I need. If it comes down later, tajic is immune, reckoner still deals damage to the face, and having 2 other swingers with medic turns it into a much cheaper mini-mortars.
13. I like flames of the firebrand, but I agree that cheaper burn (shock or magma jet) is quite possibly better. I haven't tested that yet, but I intend to.
14. Warleader's helix gains life in a deck without much lifegain and kills something big at instant speed. I don't see any issues here.
15. see response 0
16. I agree with you about Nykthos being a blank a lot of the time. That (and it being legendary) is why it's a 1-of. With no other taps for colorless cards in the deck (specifically mutavault), it only changes the early curve by a fraction of a percent while offering a huge mana advantage much more of the time.
17. I have 12 1-2 drops. If I change flames of the firebrand and drop one heliod, that will give me the ability to bump that number up to 15 (1 in 4). That seems like a decent number.
I will prove, through my refutation that your list not only doesn't beat the aforementioned decks, but in a series of 100 matches I predict your list will win less than 5% of the games vs any of the lists.
But doesn't. Naya or Dega will eat you alive, but that's a different story. And does so in a way that is total fail. No card advantage, and slow/unwieldy/easily answered threats.
For reference I am going to be using the lists provided by SCGOpen in Worcester as it is the largest official tournament to feature the format in question. I am going to be using the top 8 decklists for reference due to time constraints. The lists can be found in their entirety here.
Here is the decklist you are presuming. I am replacing Flames with shock and removing guildgates in favor of 2 of each basic as you mentioned, Since you are moving to 1 Heliod, I am just upping the purph count because you haven't said what else you were bringing in.
4 precinct captain
4 boros reckoner
3 frontline medic
3 tajic, blade of the legion
2 aurelia, the warleader
Non-Creature Spells
2 Shock
2 chained to the rocks
3 legion's initiative
3 mizzium mortars
3 anger of the gods
2 warleader's helix
1 heliod, god of the sun
4 purphoros, god of the forge
1 assemble the legion
4 sacred foundry
4 temple of triumph
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
8 plains
7 mountain
--a work in progress--
1 legion's initiative
1 anger of the gods
2 chained to the rocks
1 assemble the legions
3 glare of heresy
2 wear//tear
2 mindsparker
3 pithing needle
Deck vs Self:
Your mana needs are crazy and unrealistic. Before you say anything, this is a paradigm of costs not weighted by the turn in which you may cast them.
1: R (Shock) W (Chained)
2: WW (Captain) 1R (Mortars) RW (Initiative)
3: 2W (Medic) 1RR (Anger)
4: Tajic (2RW) Helix (2RW) Heliod (3W) Purph (3R)
5: Assemble (3RW)
6: Aurelia (2RRWW)
Taking this into consideration I'm plugging your list into a George Baxter formula.
You need 15.5 red sources and 15.0 white sources in order to expect to hit the right ratio of mana.
So by pure ratio you're only off by a little bit. Unfortunately you're trying to beat RDW and you can't wait until turn 3-4 to cast that Captain or the shock/mortars, so I'm going to weight your removal and early creatures higher in the analysis becuase you need to do something on turn 2 to win.
To cast those spells on time (turns 1-3) you need 17.5 White sources and 18.5 Red sources. So you either need to go back to the guildgates and waste a turn or you're not drawing your lands on time, and wasting turns. So by default your deck will be able to cast your spells 1-2 turns late. I'll be generous and say 1.
So Deck Vs Self: Failed.
Deck Vs RDW
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Firefist Striker
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Goblin Shortcutter
4 Mutavault
18 Mountain
4 Shock
2 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Peak Eruption
1 Skullcrack
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Act of Treason
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Firefist Striker
4 Boros Reckoner
1 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Magma Jet
21 Mountain
2 Shock
4 Ash Zealot
1 Hammer of Purphoros
4 Burning Earth
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Mizzium Mortars
vs Owen
Owen's deck is designed to do one thing every single game. By the time his second turn is over he has three creatures on the board. He does this either by dropping three one drops onto the field or by going one drop into Burning-Tree Emissary into another creature.
Since you can't cast anything until turn 3 reliably, that means on the draw you've already taken 14 damage by the time you get to mortar something or play that precinct captain. You're at 6, and need to anger in order to have a hope, and that hope means him not drawing burn or pheonix for the rest of the match.
vs Owen, you lose.
vs Phillip
Phillip's list is about a full turn slower on the cloak but is capable of hitting for incredibly large numbers with Fanatic. On the play if you draw perfectly you can shock his turn 1 or 2 creature, mortars his next one, and chianed one after that. The problem is you only have 11 spot removal spells and you need 3 or 4 of them in the first 3-4 turns of the game. If you let something such as a Reckoner live long enough for him to untap and Fanatic you, you're going to lose. Also, you have no card draw. So going 1-1 against a Pheonix will also loose you the game.
vs Phillip, you lose.
Now, vs UW.
2 Dissolve
1 Celestial Flare
1 Aetherling
4 Azorius Guildgate
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Detention Sphere
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Azorius Charm
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Essence Scatter
3 Divination
2 Mutavault
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Quicken
8 Island
2 Syncopate
8 Plains
2 Yoked Ox
3 Glare of Heresy
1 Celestial Flare
2 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Negate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Last Breath
I want to take a quick moment to say how much I love this list. It really is a thing of beauty.
Since you have no card draw, and a number of dead cards (namely your removal) and you will lose if he casts Sphinx's Revelation so you have to kill him before he can. Unfortunately your fastest start is a turn 3 precinct captain.
"BUT MY SIDEBOARD CARDS!" You may ask, the problem with your plan is, you're trying to out control a blue deck. Ain't gonna work. They have coutnerspells and Revelation, you don't even have any card draw or a way to get a 2-1. Even in game 2 (there won't be a 3) U/W could mulligan to four and pull away.
vs U/W you lose.
vs Esper
2 Dissolve
3 Temple of Deceit
3 Temple of Silence
2 Aetherling
4 Far
1 Merciless Eviction
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Azorius Charm
1 Azorius Guildgate
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
2 Doom Blade
1 Essence Scatter
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Godless Shrine
4 Watery Grave
4 Island
3 Syncopate
3 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
3 Sin Collector
1 Merciless Eviction
2 Detention Sphere
1 Negate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Dissolve
3 Temple of Deceit
3 Temple of Silence
2 Far
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Aetherling
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
4 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Azorius Charm
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Detention Sphere
2 Doom Blade
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Godless Shrine
4 Watery Grave
4 Island
3 Syncopate
4 Plains
2 Glare of Heresy
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Swan Song
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Doom Blade
2 Negate
3 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
vsChristian
He plays 18 removal spells, you have 16 creatures and 1 non-creature threat. He plays sphinx's revelatoin, you have no card draw. Your fastest clock is turn 3 captain, his early removal spell is probably turn 3 as well and a turn 5 verdict wrecks your day. If you manage to get a turn 3 captain into a turn 4 legion's initiative and have mana up turn 5 to protect the captain, he may have to spend 3-4 cards to stabalize instead of 1-2.
Post board, you fold to Blood Baron. I know you have those 3 mortars but his Sin Collector/Thoughseize/Syncopate/Negate package means you'll never resolve it.
vs Christian, you lose.
vsDavis
Game1 you fold to Obzedat. You have 0 answers and are nowhere near fast enough to race him. The only way you don't loose to Obzedat game 1 is if you lose to Blood Baron first.
Game 2. Same as game 1. You can't beat Obzedat, you can't out draw a revelation deck, and your threats are too slow and unwieldy to even place a slight straing on the volume of removal/draw Esper has.
vsDavis you lose.
I rest my case.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Thank you for the break down of those decks.
Oh I took out the 2 ogre battledriver for 2 elspeth, sun's champion and the deck is working better. I just have to remember when to -3 instead of +1 when i play her.
Rivenor @ Miraculous Recovery Signatures is the man!
<3 Elspeth
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG