So I know I'm sounding like a heretic, but I'm just not a fan of Revelation control decks. I don't like the stranglehold it has over control and how essential it's become to playing the archetype. So I'm putting together a UB Control deck and hoping to get some insight as to whether or not this could be competitive enough to take to a grand prix or a PTQ.
UPDATE: The updated deck list is here
That doesn't make any sense. People play Revelation because it is good. Not playing it just to be different doesn't accomplish anything. If you have a reason for forgoing white in favor of U/B (consistent mana, good spot removal) then by all means do it. But doing it just to be different makes no sense. As for the deck itself: Stymied Hopes is bad. Just run 1 more Syncopate/Dissolve/Essence Scatter. Desecration Demon needs to be a 3-4 of. He is your best creature. Judge's Familiar has no place in the deck. Negate, Thoughtseize, and Duress are just better at Familiar's job. The deck needs more card draw. Read the Bones/Opportunity, or Divination should be in the deck in some number. Whip doesn't have enough big targets to be all that good.
I don't see the deck in its current form competing at all.
Edit: Hands of Binding could easily be 2 Doom Blades or more Far//Away.
Control can definately be done without Sphinx's Rev, but I don't think it wants all those creatures, Whip of Erebos or Stymied hopes.
IT does want counter magic, removal and draw power, in UB draw power is either the instant speed suite of Inspiration + Opportunity or the sorcery suite of Divination/Read the Bones + Jace, Architect of Thought.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Okay, so I realize I came off as slightly jerkish with how I put things. Let me clarify:
UB is my FAVORITE color combination, and I desperately want to make it competitive. Here's the decklist I have now: http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/898971
I just linked it so you can see the changes without me having to update them. It's built much like a control deck, but my primary win condition would be erebos and/or gray merchant draining for upwards of six due to underworld connections and devotion from nightveil and lifebane. I want Aetherling in there to compete with an esper or other such control mirror which will undoubtedly be running him. I'm very open to suggestions and and still trying to think about what to cut to work in desecration demon.
Owl isn't trash, but it's not needed in control. It's more of a Tempo card that either forces your opponent to leave 3 open or acts as protection for when your big guys come in.
He currently is only in UB, I entirely agree though that splashing into red for augury is a very good idea.
(I'm currently playing UB control with a red splash purely for augury)
Augury is a worse card than Sphinx's Revelation. Why would you not splash White instead, especially when white provides much better SB options? Curious as to what your reasoning is. (For me, I'm playing UB splash white for Sphinx's, BBoV, and a Detention Sphere MB, and Glare of Heresy, +1 more DSphere SB)
Also, depending on your mana splash you're between 60-75% to hit a Red source on T4. I understand Augury is still good later in the game, but your opportunity cost is magnified by the fact you chose Red over White so you want/need to hit that T4 Augury to have any benefit to playing it over Sphinx's. I'm fine with not hitting a white source on T4, since all the white splashed cards I am playing are as good/better the longer the game goes on.
As to OP...up your land count, you autolose to BBoV/Obzedat, and Merchant is bad in any deck not Monoblack. There's a lot more to say, but I recommend you checking out the Grixis and Esper primers in the competitive section to get a feel for how control decklists aim to be built.
I've check the link and the list looks more like MBC splashing blue rather than UB control.
I suggest that you add Jace AOT to your list, since it is one of the best cards available in blue. Also, I think you don't have enough lands in the deck. You might want to add 2 more.
If you don't have any plans of changing the concept of the deck, then you might want to consider changing the deck into a "Rock" style deck and drop blue completely. Maybe add a couple of Thoughtseizes, and possibly Corrupt.
...as long as you are playing UB control with counterspells. You Thoughtseize mid/late-game --> they Revelation in response (or just lose the Revelation if they tapped out) --> you counterspell (if they Revelationed) --> on your turn with them tapped out, you Opportunity = profit.
UB is the future thanks to Thoughtseize and Ashiok... just a matter of time before Pros realize that and get off the we must play awesome UW cards (sphere/revelation/verdict). Been having no problem without verdict thanks to Frostburn Weird/Ashiok/Jace in my UB deck and pwn Revelation decks left and right.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
...as long as you are playing UB control with counterspells. You Thoughtseize mid/late-game --> they Revelation in response (or just lose the Revelation if they tapped out) --> you counterspell (if they Revelationed) --> on your turn with them tapped out, you Opportunity = profit.
UB is the future thanks to Thoughtseize and Ashiok... just a matter of time before Pros realize that and get off the we must play awesome UW cards (sphere/revelation/verdict). Been having no problem without verdict thanks to Frostburn Weird/Ashiok/Jace in my UB deck and pwn Revelation decks left and right.
UB has traditionally been better than other control decks vis a vis UB vs control, but UB has always been worse against aggro decks than other control decks. It's a trade off. I tried a third way splashing a little white to make my aggro MU better (Sphinx, 1 Detention Sphere, Glare of Heresy, BBoV) while also keeping my %'s against other control decks (all these cards are also good against them too). I don't have any discard effects in my 75 though. I just found that since my deck is very reactive it's simply only a card I brought in against other control, and while good, it was narrow, and so I opted instead to run Negates, Glares, an extra Dsphere, and extra Ashiok's (comes down early enough I use her as more of a tempo play if I can - protect until ultimate and that's pretty much game).
I think straight UB has some problems in that you're weak to aggro since you don't have much lifegain effects (all you have is Pharika's Cure) and your draw spells don't gain you life, so while you may stabilize it isn't hard for these decks to kill you anyways via their reach (Hammer, Burn, Fanatic, Ooze, etc.), and trying to run Crypt Incursion to mitigate this I found not consistent, especially with Ooze in the format. I'd simply rather run cards that are good against a variety of decks. YMMV.
Not playing it just to be different doesn't accomplish anything.
Not everyone has a spare $90 to spend on a drawspell.
OP, run UB control utilizing Aetherling or JMA as your wincon. I also believe Mirko Vosk and Mind Grind are viable buddies for JMA. You can get by with Divination, Inspiration, and Opportunity. Run Whip of Erebos if you're having trouble staying alive; it can also be used to Unearth an Aetherling which you then exile.
Okay, so I've gotten a lot of feedback and here are the contributions I think are the most relevant/impactful.
1) UB is good against control decks that run Sphinx's.
2) UB is worse than these other control decks against Aggro.
3) The current list resembles mono black control splashing blue.
4) Control can be done successfully in these colors (without white)
5) Jace, Memory Adept and Mind Grind could combine for an excellent win condition.
So, taking all of this into account, I think I'm going to try to make a list that's more control-ish than the previous one, and that has sideboard and maindeck options to mitigate the difficulty of playing against aggro.
A few things that I just wanted to mention:
1) I feel that Gray Merchant + Underworld Connections and Whip of Erebos are underestimated. I've done a bit of testing with the current list and Merchant has swung so many games around by draining for upwards of 6, providing life to pay for sizable card draws end of turn from Erebos and closing out the game.
2) My reluctance to make a mill deck comes from past experiences of it being very hard to deck your opponent while still protecting your threats. I'm going to need a lot of help deciding how to pad my life total and maintain card advantage while still getting Memory Adept and Mind Grind resolved to end the game.
3) I do love Erebos as an answer to Sphinx's decks. He provides card advantage, albeit at the cost of life (which is why I tried to put so much life drain/gain in the previous list) and shuts down life gain from the other player. Combine this with him being very resilient to removal and capable of fighting it out with all but the fattest of the fatties, and I consider him a very powerful card against all manners of decks. However, running him forces me to lean towards black in order to establish devotion. This is a problem. Suggestions?
(Side note: The primary reason I'm not running Architect of Thought is for financial restrictions. He's an amazing card and I'd love to have 3 or even 4 of him, but that's just not in the cards right now. **rimshot*)
don't make deck decisions based on what you dislike. make deck decisions based on what you think will give you a better chance to win.
there are many arguments to be made in favor of UB over UW or WUB. However, "doesn't play Sphinx's Rev" isn't an argument for UB. Its an argument against it.
You don't strictly need the card. Opportunity and Jace, Architect of Thought are good enough. However, you should recognize that not playing Sphinx's Revelation is a downside, not an upside. What is the upside to UB that makes it more desirable despite not being able to play the best draw spell in the format?
Well, the reason that I like UB over any 3-color control deck is because it has access a nearly identical suite of counterspells (only missing out on render silent and plasm capture), some very powerful and cheap removal (doom blade, warped physique, hero's downfall, far//away), and a good portion of haymakers to close out a game (Aetherling, Jace, Mind Grind, Desecration Demon, etc) while still maintaining a 2-color mana base. I like this because it lets me cut down on the damage I take from lands and makes the deck much more consitent (flooding out or not being able to access one of your colors can be back-breaking in a 3-color deck). As mentioned above, I definitely feel that a UB deck can be strong against control decks, but has a bit of a problem against aggro without more consistent lifegain or a straight up board wipe. However, I think that it could work and be a truly competitive deck list if I can work it out just right, but for that I'm going to need some help.
Just throwing this out there, if you want to make a competitive standard deck (PTQs, SCG opens, etc) you are going to have to buy / trade for the cards to play it. Not being willing to get the cards you need like Revelations, Ashiok or Jace means that you should be doing one of two things. Get the cards together for RDW, because they're much cheaper, or move to the budget forum and see what you can put together. Card prices are insane right now, but control deck staples are required to make these decks function smoothly. Not having these very key cards means your deck will not be consistent enough to be able to compete most of the time.
As for the rest, B/U is a solid choice for control, you lack a sweeper and revelation, but if you have access to Jace and Ashiok, with a ton of targeted removal you can definitely be competitive. One thing in this decks favor is that it easily deals with Mistcutter Hydra and Stormbreath Dragon. Mono red agro is a bit more difficult of a match up though when you lack the life gain and verdicts to stay ahead.
At a first glance, this doesn't seem like control at all, is like mid-game mixed with control, but I consider that valid anyway.
Second, everyone mentions the lack of good match against control. Judge's Familiar is not a card you want (at least not in main board, it is only intended against control), I would go for Omenspeaker instead, it also restrains aggro a little and helps you fix your draws. Now, if you want so badly the devotion and merchant's life gain, you can use Returned Phalanx instead. Almost all aggro dudes will die, and it trades decently with Boros Reckoner.
Another thing is, you really want 3-4 Far // Away, one of the best removal spells out there, useful in early or mid-game or late-game, you can replace them instead of Hands of Binding, they don't go with your playstyle.
UPDATE: The updated deck list is here
http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/898971
Still very open to suggestions!
Stymied Hopes is bad. Just run 1 more Syncopate/Dissolve/Essence Scatter.
Desecration Demon needs to be a 3-4 of. He is your best creature. Judge's Familiar has no place in the deck. Negate, Thoughtseize, and Duress are just better at Familiar's job. The deck needs more card draw. Read the Bones/Opportunity, or Divination should be in the deck in some number. Whip doesn't have enough big targets to be all that good.
I don't see the deck in its current form competing at all.
Edit: Hands of Binding could easily be 2 Doom Blades or more Far//Away.
URU/R TempoRU
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-counterburn-26-10-13-1/
Standard:
RBB/R MadnessBR
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/21-07-16-imI-br-vampires/
Caleb Durward:
There are a lot of terrible U/R lists going around. But I believe that a finely tuned one will be quite playable.
IT does want counter magic, removal and draw power, in UB draw power is either the instant speed suite of Inspiration + Opportunity or the sorcery suite of Divination/Read the Bones + Jace, Architect of Thought.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)(I'm currently playing UB control with a red splash purely for augury)
UB is my FAVORITE color combination, and I desperately want to make it competitive. Here's the decklist I have now:
http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/898971
I just linked it so you can see the changes without me having to update them. It's built much like a control deck, but my primary win condition would be erebos and/or gray merchant draining for upwards of six due to underworld connections and devotion from nightveil and lifebane. I want Aetherling in there to compete with an esper or other such control mirror which will undoubtedly be running him. I'm very open to suggestions and and still trying to think about what to cut to work in desecration demon.
Owl isn't trash, but it's not needed in control. It's more of a Tempo card that either forces your opponent to leave 3 open or acts as protection for when your big guys come in.
You need Ætherling.
Augury is a worse card than Sphinx's Revelation. Why would you not splash White instead, especially when white provides much better SB options? Curious as to what your reasoning is. (For me, I'm playing UB splash white for Sphinx's, BBoV, and a Detention Sphere MB, and Glare of Heresy, +1 more DSphere SB)
Also, depending on your mana splash you're between 60-75% to hit a Red source on T4. I understand Augury is still good later in the game, but your opportunity cost is magnified by the fact you chose Red over White so you want/need to hit that T4 Augury to have any benefit to playing it over Sphinx's. I'm fine with not hitting a white source on T4, since all the white splashed cards I am playing are as good/better the longer the game goes on.
As to OP...up your land count, you autolose to BBoV/Obzedat, and Merchant is bad in any deck not Monoblack. There's a lot more to say, but I recommend you checking out the Grixis and Esper primers in the competitive section to get a feel for how control decklists aim to be built.
I suggest that you add Jace AOT to your list, since it is one of the best cards available in blue. Also, I think you don't have enough lands in the deck. You might want to add 2 more.
If you don't have any plans of changing the concept of the deck, then you might want to consider changing the deck into a "Rock" style deck and drop blue completely. Maybe add a couple of Thoughtseizes, and possibly Corrupt.
...as long as you are playing UB control with counterspells. You Thoughtseize mid/late-game --> they Revelation in response (or just lose the Revelation if they tapped out) --> you counterspell (if they Revelationed) --> on your turn with them tapped out, you Opportunity = profit.
UB is the future thanks to Thoughtseize and Ashiok... just a matter of time before Pros realize that and get off the we must play awesome UW cards (sphere/revelation/verdict). Been having no problem without verdict thanks to Frostburn Weird/Ashiok/Jace in my UB deck and pwn Revelation decks left and right.
UB has traditionally been better than other control decks vis a vis UB vs control, but UB has always been worse against aggro decks than other control decks. It's a trade off. I tried a third way splashing a little white to make my aggro MU better (Sphinx, 1 Detention Sphere, Glare of Heresy, BBoV) while also keeping my %'s against other control decks (all these cards are also good against them too). I don't have any discard effects in my 75 though. I just found that since my deck is very reactive it's simply only a card I brought in against other control, and while good, it was narrow, and so I opted instead to run Negates, Glares, an extra Dsphere, and extra Ashiok's (comes down early enough I use her as more of a tempo play if I can - protect until ultimate and that's pretty much game).
I think straight UB has some problems in that you're weak to aggro since you don't have much lifegain effects (all you have is Pharika's Cure) and your draw spells don't gain you life, so while you may stabilize it isn't hard for these decks to kill you anyways via their reach (Hammer, Burn, Fanatic, Ooze, etc.), and trying to run Crypt Incursion to mitigate this I found not consistent, especially with Ooze in the format. I'd simply rather run cards that are good against a variety of decks. YMMV.
Not everyone has a spare $90 to spend on a drawspell.
OP, run UB control utilizing Aetherling or JMA as your wincon. I also believe Mirko Vosk and Mind Grind are viable buddies for JMA. You can get by with Divination, Inspiration, and Opportunity. Run Whip of Erebos if you're having trouble staying alive; it can also be used to Unearth an Aetherling which you then exile.
1) UB is good against control decks that run Sphinx's.
2) UB is worse than these other control decks against Aggro.
3) The current list resembles mono black control splashing blue.
4) Control can be done successfully in these colors (without white)
5) Jace, Memory Adept and Mind Grind could combine for an excellent win condition.
So, taking all of this into account, I think I'm going to try to make a list that's more control-ish than the previous one, and that has sideboard and maindeck options to mitigate the difficulty of playing against aggro.
A few things that I just wanted to mention:
1) I feel that Gray Merchant + Underworld Connections and Whip of Erebos are underestimated. I've done a bit of testing with the current list and Merchant has swung so many games around by draining for upwards of 6, providing life to pay for sizable card draws end of turn from Erebos and closing out the game.
2) My reluctance to make a mill deck comes from past experiences of it being very hard to deck your opponent while still protecting your threats. I'm going to need a lot of help deciding how to pad my life total and maintain card advantage while still getting Memory Adept and Mind Grind resolved to end the game.
3) I do love Erebos as an answer to Sphinx's decks. He provides card advantage, albeit at the cost of life (which is why I tried to put so much life drain/gain in the previous list) and shuts down life gain from the other player. Combine this with him being very resilient to removal and capable of fighting it out with all but the fattest of the fatties, and I consider him a very powerful card against all manners of decks. However, running him forces me to lean towards black in order to establish devotion. This is a problem. Suggestions?
(Side note: The primary reason I'm not running Architect of Thought is for financial restrictions. He's an amazing card and I'd love to have 3 or even 4 of him, but that's just not in the cards right now. **rimshot*)
there are many arguments to be made in favor of UB over UW or WUB. However, "doesn't play Sphinx's Rev" isn't an argument for UB. Its an argument against it.
You don't strictly need the card. Opportunity and Jace, Architect of Thought are good enough. However, you should recognize that not playing Sphinx's Revelation is a downside, not an upside. What is the upside to UB that makes it more desirable despite not being able to play the best draw spell in the format?
As for the rest, B/U is a solid choice for control, you lack a sweeper and revelation, but if you have access to Jace and Ashiok, with a ton of targeted removal you can definitely be competitive. One thing in this decks favor is that it easily deals with Mistcutter Hydra and Stormbreath Dragon. Mono red agro is a bit more difficult of a match up though when you lack the life gain and verdicts to stay ahead.
7 Island
9 Swamp
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
Creatures(14)
3 Nightveil Specter
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Desecration Demon
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Judge's Familiar
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Enchantments(4)
2 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
Spells(13)
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Dissolve
1 Far // Away
2 Warped Physique
2 Hands of Binding
1 Stymied Hopes
2 Syncopate
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Notion Thief
3 Dispel
3 Woodlot Crawler
3 Annul
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Doom Blade
Ok, that's better now
At a first glance, this doesn't seem like control at all, is like mid-game mixed with control, but I consider that valid anyway.
Second, everyone mentions the lack of good match against control. Judge's Familiar is not a card you want (at least not in main board, it is only intended against control), I would go for Omenspeaker instead, it also restrains aggro a little and helps you fix your draws. Now, if you want so badly the devotion and merchant's life gain, you can use Returned Phalanx instead. Almost all aggro dudes will die, and it trades decently with Boros Reckoner.
Another thing is, you really want 3-4 Far // Away, one of the best removal spells out there, useful in early or mid-game or late-game, you can replace them instead of Hands of Binding, they don't go with your playstyle.
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Modern
Infectors
Legacy
UGBack to Square OneGU
EDH
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Are you Afraid of Ghosts? You Better Be!
8 Island
9 Swamp
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
Creatures (8)
2 Desecration Demon
3 Aetherling
3 Omenspeaker
Instants (18)
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Far // Away
3 Warped Physique
2 Doom Blade
2 Opportunity
3 Psychic Strike
3 Essence Scatter
1 Whip of Erebos
Planeswalkers (4)
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Inspiration
3 Notion Thief
3 Dispel
3 Woodlot Crawler
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Lifebane Zombie
Here is the current list. Thoughts?