So the general idea is to build a creature that's virtually impossible to interact with and/or is aggressively costed to force unfavorable blocks. the artifacts, split spells, and immortality are really answers to the few removal spells that work against this deck. The weakness used to be that if the your first enchantment loaded creature was removed then it was nearly impossible to come back, while Ready is preventative, the artifacts and gift are remedial.
I like fleecemane and smiter in this deck because I can change gears fairly well by going either hexproof or G/W aggro. This is a very rough first draft but I want to keep the hexproof theme. Even this rough cut has tore up both control decks it faced.
Any suggestions are welcome but please don't suggest Voice of Resurgence because he is very unattainable to me.
So the general idea is to build a creature that's virtually impossible to interact with and/or is aggressively costed to force unfavorable blocks. the artifacts, split spells, and immortality are really answers to the few removal spells that work against this deck. The weakness used to be that if the your first enchantment loaded creature was removed then it was nearly impossible to come back, while Ready is preventative, the artifacts and gift are remedial.
I like fleecemane and smiter in this deck because I can change gears fairly well by going either hexproof or G/W aggro. This is a very rough first draft but I want to keep the hexproof theme. Even this rough cut has tore up both control decks it faced.
Any suggestions are welcome but please don't suggest Voice of Resurgence because he is very unattainable to me.
Please search the forum before posting. There is a G/W/x Hexproof thread and it's very active (at last check right above your topic!!!)
Also, if budget is a concern then please post your deck in the Budget section. If you don't want suggestions based on budget concerns this is not the right subforum for you.
While I agree that the thread that has been started may be a better area to post the list for positive critiquing, as this is not the Competitive section there is no restriction on leaving out certain cards for budgetary concerns and I have no problem with someone stating as such in this section personally.
In regards to the deck, I'm not sure if the Mystics are really needed in a hexproof shell since the need to drop a fattie on turn 2 isn't as high in the current meta.
While I agree that the thread that has been started may be a better area to post the list for positive critiquing, as this is not the Competitive section there is no restriction on leaving out certain cards for budgetary concerns and I have no problem with someone stating as such in this section personally.
In regards to the deck, I'm not sure if the Mystics are really needed in a hexproof shell since the need to drop a fattie on turn 2 isn't as high in the current meta.
Point taken. Apologies IronPlushy. I'm just frustrated repeatedly seeing 5 or 6 threads of the same deck with the exception of a few cards (usually due to budget concerns).
I can certainly unferstand the frustration. The mods are typically very good about condensing multiple similar threads into one though, so the issue does get addressed. As for VoR, it can be an extremely powerful card. The nearly $200 USD for a playset though keeps it out of many players' reach, budget or otherwise imo.
Actually, budget discussion should go into the budget subforum, as the people there will be much more helpful. Not posting there when you have budget concerns is a slap in the face to the budget community, as you are indirectly telling them that they are not competitive enough for you.
It's not as if the budget subforum is meant to discuss only $10 decks. Stuff like "I can't afford VOR what can I use?" belongs there as well.
Actually, budget discussion should go into the budget subforum, as the people there will be much more helpful. Not posting there when you have budget concerns is a slap in the face to the budget community, as you are indirectly telling them that they are not competitive enough for you.
It's not as if the budget subforum is meant to discuss only $10 decks. Stuff like "I can't afford VOR what can I use?" belongs there as well.
Sasky,
I can certainly agree if it's strictly a budget build. Then the budget area is by far the best place for it as there are very talented budgeteers there than can offer all sorts of suggestions. Where I do disagree slightly though is if the only budget constraint the op has is VoR, then I don't see why that would relegate it as a "budget deck". Without the op stating a specific budget it's hard to make a definitive determination imo. VoR is definitely an investment not for the faint of heart. If this were the Competitive section then as per the posting rules there I fully agree the list wouldn't belong in the section.
So as not to veer the thread off topic more than it is I'll ask the op to state if there is a specific budget for the deck, so as to be able to offer the best suggestions
I don't think VoR is required for hexproof, since it doesn't have hexproof.
His ability is better than hexproof, he's about half of teferi, mage of zhalfir at half the price, and when he dies he replaces himself. There are 3 cards worth playing that deal with him while not giving his owner value: d-spere, chained to the rocks, and anger of the gods. Anything else will atleast give the free keldon warlord, two if it's tried it on their turn. When I first saw my thought was "well, I guess this is the new giest of st. Traft", and while that is not what he is, he does contort the playstate significantly when he comes down, and in ways control really doesn't want to deal with.
So no he's not hexproof, but he warps the gamestate far more than a 2drop has any right to do.
Actually, budget discussion should go into the budget subforum, as the people there will be much more helpful. Not posting there when you have budget concerns is a slap in the face to the budget community, as you are indirectly telling them that they are not competitive enough for you.
It's not as if the budget subforum is meant to discuss only $10 decks. Stuff like "I can't afford VOR what can I use?" belongs there as well.
This is astounding to me. I understand that the competitive forum forbids budget discussions and I have never posted there, but this seems the perfect place to post when one is in the middle financially.
For a moderator who has already issued an infraction to the thread author to construe budgetary concerns about very expensive cards as insulting to others essentially forces the the rules of the competitive forum here.
Is that what this forum is about? If I don't want Voice, Purphoros, Elspeth and whatever else is broken FOTM in every deck it would be helpful, I shouldn't post here? I would like to hear from some more moderators on this issue.
I have also followed the GW/x thread closely and the decks being discussed there are generally very different. Lately there has been quite a bit of discussion of whether the deck should be GWub or GWur. I am interested in a deck very similar to the one in the OP and reading the GW/x thread has generally been a waste of time.
As for the deck, I am most concerned about the number of enchantments. With only 12, 2 of which cost 5 to use as enchantments, I would be concerned about mulling hands with no or only 1 enchantment. I would remove one of the Boon Satyrs and the Hero and the Smiters would go sideboard. With those four slots, I would add some number of Gift of Orzhova, Bow of Nylea (deathtouch+first strike seems good), Spear of Heliod, the enchantments listed below and maybe another Fiendslayer Paladin. Ajani is another card worth consideration as an alternative to the artifacts.
With the Paladin, Spear or Gift, Temple Garden seems useful. A manabase of 9 Forest, 11 Plains, 4 Temple Garden with 4 Elvish Mystics should give you 13 G sources turn 1 and 15 W, 13-17 G (depending on whether the dorks eat removal) sources T2.
A big issue seems to be that we have no replacement for Rancor as a cheap enchantment. The Boon Satyr seems like the most pushed Bestow and it costs 5. Illinest has suggested Divine Favor and I am looking at Trollhide and Forced Adaptation. Neither of the relevant Ordeals really fits what the deck is trying to do particularly well, but they only cost 2 and produce a benefit on the first attack.
I am interested in the evolution of your deck, as I am working on something similar.
Please search the forum before posting. There is a G/W/x Hexproof thread and it's very active (at last check right above your topic!!!)
Also, if budget is a concern then please post your deck in the Budget section. If you don't want suggestions based on budget concerns this is not the right subforum for you.
It is okay to talk about budget in this forum, and I don't think we would ever move a thread to the budget forum unless he was extreme budgetting (like an entire deck for 10 dollars).
I normally don't like speaking for other mods but I'm pretty sure that's what they would say on this issue as well. It only is strictly forbidden in Competitive.
Honestly, 3 must have cards - Miscutter Hydra, Advent of the Wurm, Sylvan Caryatid
For protection - God's Willing and Rootborn Defense (great synergy with Advent)
I'd try to run 3-4 copies of everything, just so you have a concrete gameplan. If used right (especially the sideboard), GW is hard to beat.
...the decks being discussed there are generally very different.
I don't really see where you're coming from. This deck has a slightly different curve structure and a few curious choices but I don't see anything about this deck that is different enough to warrant a new thread. This could've been summed up as:
"My vote is for G/W, what do you guys think about card X, card Y and card Z?"
Now that I've seen this I'm worried that my enthusiasm for the concept is scaring people off, but what can I do about that? I don't take myself nearly as seriously as some people seem to take me.
And this thread - it seems cowardly to me. I can assure you that I would've welcomed a killer argument for limiting the concept to two colors. Don't be afraid to come up with a good argument, but if you can't come up with one then you might just be wrong. Don't be stubborn about it. Maybe G/W is the best way to go, maybe it isn't, but don't just run off to another thread and pretend as if we're the bad guys for discussing alternatives.
It is okay to talk about budget in this forum, and I don't think we would ever move a thread to the budget forum unless he was extreme budgetting (like an entire deck for 10 dollars).
I normally don't like speaking for other mods but I'm pretty sure that's what they would say on this issue as well. It only is strictly forbidden in Competitive.
I've already addressed this in a more recent post. My concern was not primarily the budget but multiple threads of the same deck (save a card or 2 because of budget constraints). My point is that this thread could have been a post in the GW/x Hexproof thread with the author asking his "what can I use to replace VoR in this deck."
Sasky is a mod who responded in this thread and he actually disagrees with you.
I have followed, built and played the deck you helped foster in the last standard. I have read the entire GW/x thread. I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for your work here. You may notice that I pass on one of your ideas, with attribution.
I don't really see where you're coming from. This deck has a slightly different curve structure and a few curious choices but I don't see anything about this deck that is different enough to warrant a new thread.
...
And this thread - it seems cowardly to me. I can assure you that I would've welcomed a killer argument for limiting the concept to two colors. ... pretend as if we're the bad guys for discussing alternatives.
Whoa! Cowardly? Bad guys? Really? I can't speak for the author, but I wonder whether you could be taking this a bit personally. If I had the killer argument, I wouldn't make it before seriously testing it. Who has accused you of being bad guys in any way?
Please reread your post #127 and #130 in the GW/x thread. Witchstalker, hexproof aside, is not as good as Smiter or Reckoner. Nice argument. The most broken non-hexproof creatures in the format are better than one of the few hexproofs that are available. Yeah, I wish GOST were still around, and better yet, wasn't mythic, so he would be more affordable.
I want to see if I can have fun playing Scout + enchantments or Mystic into Witchstalker or Fiendslayer + enchantments.
Just to verify what I already knew, I reviewed the latter section of the GW/x thread. Lovemeacombo's post #120 is GW, but not very similar and he thinks anyone who balks at a set of Voices should be in the budget area (post #125). TopdeckFTW posted a GW deck (that can't put Witchstalker down until T3, but which has the obligatory 4 Voices -post #132) and asked for feedback a few hours after the OP for this thread and received no response.
For GW hexproof with or w/o VOR, the S/N ratio over there is not very high.
Even with the drive by shootings and irrelevancies from Flagg, Sasky, chrisb3, darthstabber and you, Ironplushy has generated actual suggestions from Phoenixdrakenfire, myself, Zwaken and ICEmanJC. This is much better than TopdeckFTW did in the GW/x thread in a similar amount of time.
Please, Illinest, consider what is really happening over in that thread before accusing people of cowardice.
Lovemeacombo's post #120 is GW, but not very similar and he thinks anyone who balks at a set of Voices should be in the budget area (post #125).
I am not sure if this is positive or negative for me so I will respond each way...
Positive: Cool.
Negative: I also played Bant Enchant last season and have created my decklist for this season and although a small sample size, have had great success with it, poor card choices aside (as listed after my deck). I truly feel that Voice of Resurgence is a "4-of" auto-include in any competitive** G/W/x Aura deck, regardless of the fact that you are going more for hexproof or not. Opponents fear him when he hits the table and they need to either deal with him on their turn (thus giving us an advantage) or suffer the consequences. That is the reasoning behind my belief that any competitive** deck without Voices should be in the Budget forum.
** I say competitive, as that was the location of the original Bant Enchant thread. I hope that the G/W/x Aura thread will be moved there as well and hope to be a driving force for that.
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Maralen of the Mornsong B(Commander)
Negative: I also played Bant Enchant last season and have created my decklist for this season and although a small sample size, have had great success with it, poor card choices aside (as listed after my deck). I truly feel that Voice of Resurgence is a "4-of" auto-include in any competitive** G/W/x Aura deck, regardless of the fact that you are going more for hexproof or not. Opponents fear him when he hits the table and they need to either deal with him on their turn (thus giving us an advantage) or suffer the consequences. That is the reasoning behind my belief that any competitive** deck without Voices should be in the Budget forum.
** I say competitive, as that was the location of the original Bant Enchant thread. I hope that the G/W/x Aura thread will be moved there as well and hope to be a driving force for that.
I agree, "competitive" forum rules forbid budget discussion. If VoR is the best card for the deck, case closed. And I am not arguing that this is not true. I managed to luck into two relatively cheaply and I play them. It's just more fun for me to play w/only two than to shell out ~$70 for two more, and that is why I don't post in the Competitive forums.
If you want GW/x to be in the competitive forum, great. I'm happy for you. Please do me a favor. Get together w/Illinest and figure out what the GW/x thread vision is. He is criticizing us for having a separate thread instead of posting in GW/x and you are saying we have no business even posting in this forum, even in our own thread.
But this is not the competitive forum, nor is this in the GW/x thread. If this forum had to run by competitive forum rules, it would not need to exist.
I have another favor to ask. You are clearly a skilled deckbuilder, certainly better than I. Ironplushy has asked for help w/his deck (other than to tell him to get VoR) in this thread and TopdeckFTW has a deck w/4 VoR in the GW/x thread that he wants help with (I like the idea of Path of Bravery, and w/Elvish Mystic he could go T1 Mystic; T2 Witchstalker; T3 Path, Ethereal, swing for 6, gain 1 life and Witchstalker can survive AoTG). Could you please give these guys the benefit of your judgment and experience?
I'm easily attacking for 7 lifelink or upwards in most games, +1/+1 and 1 life per turn from my giant hexproof multi enchanted monster seems weak - especially for 3 mana. How about Ordeal of Heliod for a potential +3/+3 and 10 life over 3 turns?
Personally I'm using Hopeful Eidolon which gives +1/+1, the full lifelink AND can chump block or even be the aura target if there is no removal (possible christmasland 7/7 lifelink on T2 with 2 ethereal armours). Sure it costs 4, but you are paying for the flexibility. I belive that lifelink is mandatroy to race other decks so I like having 12 ways to draw it.
Ironically Path of Bravery is better if you have more creatures out... which brings you to... Voice of Resurgance
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions! I do want to understand your basis of comparison.
What turn and sequencing are you using for your "giant hexproof multi enchanted monster"? Your T2 example is not hexproof and seems to invite 3/1s.
The Eidolon seems like a good idea, but 4 to bestow seems expensive and as a target, it's not hexproof. Having a 1/1 lifelinker after a wipe or a Far // Away just doesn't seem that impressive.
I struggle w/understanding your sequencing relative to AotG. Let's ignore Scout for now, as both lists can grow him out of Anger range t3.
T1 aside from scout, all you have is Eidolon which I wouldn't want to enchant, as she's not hexproof.
T2 you need Caryatid, as otherwise you will only have 3 mana T3 and AotG will wipe your board or you won't have a hexproof and can be X-for-1ed.
T3 you can Witchstalker plus 1 mana for enchantment from Caryatid. If Ethereal, then you can survive AotG.
So either you expose yourself to x-for-1s or AotG T3 wipes you out unless you have Gladecover + multiple enchants or Caryatid+Witchstalker + Ethereal. With Caryatid+Witchstalker+Ethereal+Eidolon you are a turn behind Mystic+Witchstalker+Ethereal+Path although you have an extra 1/1 non-hexproof lifelinker. Not worth except against Far // Away. What am I missing?
I actually wonder whether Leafcrown Dryad or Feral Invocation wouldn't be better than Hopeful since you get a bigger body or the ability to do tricks and represent Rootborn Defenses, but I defer to your judgment until I do some real testing.
I have followed, built and played the deck you helped foster in the last standard. I have read the entire GW/x thread. I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for your work here. You may notice that I pass on one of your ideas, with attribution.
Whoa! Cowardly? Bad guys? Really? I can't speak for the author, but I wonder whether you could be taking this a bit personally. If I had the killer argument, I wouldn't make it before seriously testing it. Who has accused you of being bad guys in any way?
Please reread your post #127 and #130 in the GW/x thread. Witchstalker, hexproof aside, is not as good as Smiter or Reckoner. Nice argument. The most broken non-hexproof creatures in the format are better than one of the few hexproofs that are available. Yeah, I wish GOST were still around, and better yet, wasn't mythic, so he would be more affordable.
I want to see if I can have fun playing Scout + enchantments or Mystic into Witchstalker or Fiendslayer + enchantments.
Just to verify what I already knew, I reviewed the latter section of the GW/x thread. Lovemeacombo's post #120 is GW, but not very similar and he thinks anyone who balks at a set of Voices should be in the budget area (post #125). TopdeckFTW posted a GW deck (that can't put Witchstalker down until T3, but which has the obligatory 4 Voices -post #132) and asked for feedback a few hours after the OP for this thread and received no response.
For GW hexproof with or w/o VOR, the S/N ratio over there is not very high.
Even with the drive by shootings and irrelevancies from Flagg, Sasky, chrisb3, darthstabber and you, Ironplushy has generated actual suggestions from Phoenixdrakenfire, myself, Zwaken and ICEmanJC. This is much better than TopdeckFTW did in the GW/x thread in a similar amount of time.
Please, Illinest, consider what is really happening over in that thread before accusing people of cowardice.
It is cowardice. Topdeck posted a list that was reasonably within the scope of the concept, but generated no discussion. Why is that?
1. Other members too busy to respond?
(No)
2. Other members are jerks?
(No.)
3. Other members don't understand the genius ideas?
(If that were the case then you could've just explained them better)
(A.k.a. No.)
4. The ideas weren't interesting enough (or justified well enough) to interest any of the people who've been working on the concept.
BINGO.
You guys didn't like the response you got there (failed to get, actually) so you started the same thread with the same name in hopes of getting a different audience. You ran away.
I sure am popular in this thread. Kinda funny how I have not even posted in this thread though.
As far as what everyone is saying(The VoR comments aside); I think it is reasonable enough to warrent a new thread if this scope of it is just GREEN AND WHITE not splashing for another color. Also I don't think he really ran away from the G/W/x thread; more so just wanted a more specific thread towards what he wants to build. Which there is nothing wrong with.
Maybe the reason why people steer away from bigger threads is sort of what happened to me. You might post a deck that has a few variances from the original idea and people will just skim over it and say "Well thats not much different from what we have already discussed *SKIP*" Maybe I should have been more direct and said "What do you guys think of Path of Bravery and no Elvish Mystic?" I guess in the mean time I will wait until someone comments on my deck in the other thread
It is cowardice. Topdeck posted a list that was reasonably within the scope of the concept, but generated no discussion. Why is that?
1. Other members too busy to respond?
(No)
2. Other members are jerks?
(No.)
3. Other members don't understand the genius ideas?
(If that were the case then you could've just explained them better)
(A.k.a. No.)
4. The ideas weren't interesting enough (or justified well enough) to interest any of the people who've been working on the concept.
BINGO.
You guys didn't like the response you got there (failed to get, actually) so you started the same thread with the same name in hopes of getting a different audience. You ran away.
Illinest,
I don't understand how you were able to do a quick poll and determine the motivations of everyone who read TopdeckFTW's deck and didn't comment on it.
I don't understand how you could figure out that TopdeckFTW (who didn't post over here until after your post), Ironplushy (who has never posted over there) and I (who has never asked for feedback over there) are working together and responded to the impending lack of feedback to TopdeckFTW's posting by going back in time and starting a different thread about a different deck.
I think I am the only one who could really be accused of cowardice, as I have participated in both threads. If you want to project that on me, go right ahead, but please keep it to yourself. I prefer to think of my actions as a rational and reasoned response to the choices I faced.
I do object to being called a coward in public. I don't see that it fits with the forum rules that say "Be nice and respectful, don't flame or troll other users."
I also wonder whether the lack of effective feedback that I perceive in the GW/x thread is due to the diversity of decks being worked on there. When everybody is doing different things, it seems like it would be hard to help each other.
I wonder whether TopdeckFTW got no response in part because others were not doing anything similar rather than your claim that it is not interesting. Certainly, I find the idea of using Path interesting, particularly when we using enchantments like Divine Favor, Hopeful Eidolon, Unflinching Courage and Gift of Orzhova.
While a variety of creative approaches is desirable while searching for a solution, it seems difficult to work together when people are all over the map.
I do find it disturbing that you haven't provided the benefits of your experience to TopdeckFTW, Ironplushy and myself in the form of actual suggestions or questions. Does it matter what thread the information is in, as long as we can find it?
I can understand you being proud of the contribution you have made in the previous standard and wanting to make a similar one in the current standard. I certainly will not fail to credit you, whichever thread I participate in. Can you see these threads as synergistic, rather than parasitic?
Respectfully,
Hoser2
TopdeckFTW,
I apologize for using your posting in vain. If you have a problem with my referencing your post, please let me know how you would have preferred that I handle the situation.
I apologize for using your posting in vain. If you have a problem with my referencing your post, please let me know how you would have preferred that I handle the situation.
Nope go ahead and do you. It's up to you how you handle yourself and a situation. I'll just grabbing some popcorn and enjoying the show
I don't know it seems like you want to win an argument on the internet hoser2. You are attacking my deck from last week an awful lot instead of explaining why Path of Bravery is good.
A fair point. I did explain the scenario where I saw that a 4 card combo could produce an attack for 6 on T3. If I were to be defensive, I might say that your argument against contained references to your deck that I wanted to understand, but I would never say that, because being defensive is bad:rolleyes:.
I'm playing this deck by building one massive unanswerable creature and stabilising with lifelink before they kill me. PoB gives me +1/+1 if I am on full life (so I don't need the +1 life) or it doesn't give me +1/+1 (and I get 1 life which I need and isn't enough). If you are playing many more creatures than me, then it is a lot better.
...
I'm not saying that it (Hopeful Eidolon) is great because it clearly isn't as good as the other auras, it just fills a few needs which I feel that the deck has.
Thanks for the updated decklist and explanations! That really helps me understand.
I am not sure how to build this deck. Gladecover and Ethereal seem like a solid start, but I am not sure where to go from there.
In the last standard Stalker, Traft, Ethereal, Rancor and Spectral Flight seemed like a core. Avacyn's Pilgrim made for a T2 Traft, so it also became part of the core. Even in the Cavern-fueled control-hostile metagame, Ascended Lawmage seemed to be too slow. With three colors, accelerants, enchantments and hexproof creatures, the deck self-destructed a significant amount of the time.
I know Illinest tested and rejected what I am doing months ago, but I stubbornly need to understand why a core of Scout, Witchstalker, Ethereal, Courage and Mystic won't work before I move on. I think two colors may provide consistency to make up for some of the lost power. And honestly, I just need to have fun playing the deck. I don't need to win a GP.
Selesnya Charm, Fleecemane Lion, Fiendslayer and Voice (for those that can afford it) all fit the deck along with a singleton Bow (are first strike and deathtouch good together?) and Spear. Rootborn and Advent probably fit in the sideboard.
Path is interesting for the following reasons:
It can provide a buff. Even against red decks, which don't block well, it can make itself work better.
The lifegain is supplemental to lifelink.
It survives verdict.
It scales w/creatures, so an extra Voice, Fleecemane or Paladin will be better.
Fiendslayer, Courage, Gift and even Hopeful Eidolon make it less conditional.
Cheaper than any Bestow.
OTOH
Path only provides a small buff and only conditionally.
It works best w/more creatures, and we don't have many. (Although this was also the original argument for why Voice wasn't good in the deck.)
It costs 3, where we are already clogged, we need more things that cost 1 and 2.
It is a nonbo w/Temple Garden
Is it good? I put it behind Forced Adaptation, the first GoO and the first Boon Satyr and ahead of Hopeful Eidolon. I am not sure where it stands compared to Divine Favor, Trollhide, the second Boon Satyr, Chosen by Heliod, Ordeal of Heliod, Leafwhatever Dryad, Feral Invocation #1, Spear #2 or GoO #2-4.
I suppose that it does survive your creature getting killed, but then again it doesn't "survive" against any kind of aggro deck. It just seems like a very small P/T gain with nothing useful (flying/lifelink) attached to it. The lifegain is insignificant with how I am playing, maybe you are playing the deck differently.
Divine Favor seems like a similar card with the small lifegain and Power boost but is cheaper and has a larger toughness boost.
Would you play Spear of Heliod for a similar "permanent" boost which isn't removed with the creature? These anthems seem narrow enough in which decks they work in to be sideboard rather than main deck.
Well, first off, you've done more testing than I have, so take anything I say with a huge block of salt.
The singleton Spear of Heliod for me is a windmill slam. It buffs and threatens removal. I can be representing removal with it and have Selesnya Charm.
As for the rest, I need to test more before I say anything, but while I would not run four Paths, diminishing returns applies to Spear, Path and Eidolon. I think the first path might be more valuable than the fourth Eidolon. I will test both. Spear and Path both help more than one creature, but I don't understand how important that is.
4 Gladecover Scout
4 Witchstalker
2 Fleecemane Lion
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
2 Loxodon Smiter
1 Fabled Hero
2 Boon Satyr
4 Ethereal Armor
2 Gift of Immortality
2 Selesnya Charm
1 Fireshrieker
2 Ready // Willing
1 Haunted Plat Mail
12 Plains
So the general idea is to build a creature that's virtually impossible to interact with and/or is aggressively costed to force unfavorable blocks. the artifacts, split spells, and immortality are really answers to the few removal spells that work against this deck. The weakness used to be that if the your first enchantment loaded creature was removed then it was nearly impossible to come back, while Ready is preventative, the artifacts and gift are remedial.
I like fleecemane and smiter in this deck because I can change gears fairly well by going either hexproof or G/W aggro. This is a very rough first draft but I want to keep the hexproof theme. Even this rough cut has tore up both control decks it faced.
Any suggestions are welcome but please don't suggest Voice of Resurgence because he is very unattainable to me.
Please search the forum before posting. There is a G/W/x Hexproof thread and it's very active (at last check right above your topic!!!)
Also, if budget is a concern then please post your deck in the Budget section. If you don't want suggestions based on budget concerns this is not the right subforum for you.
Infraction for flaming. -Sasky
In regards to the deck, I'm not sure if the Mystics are really needed in a hexproof shell since the need to drop a fattie on turn 2 isn't as high in the current meta.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
Point taken. Apologies IronPlushy. I'm just frustrated repeatedly seeing 5 or 6 threads of the same deck with the exception of a few cards (usually due to budget concerns).
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
It's not as if the budget subforum is meant to discuss only $10 decks. Stuff like "I can't afford VOR what can I use?" belongs there as well.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Sasky,
I can certainly agree if it's strictly a budget build. Then the budget area is by far the best place for it as there are very talented budgeteers there than can offer all sorts of suggestions. Where I do disagree slightly though is if the only budget constraint the op has is VoR, then I don't see why that would relegate it as a "budget deck". Without the op stating a specific budget it's hard to make a definitive determination imo. VoR is definitely an investment not for the faint of heart. If this were the Competitive section then as per the posting rules there I fully agree the list wouldn't belong in the section.
So as not to veer the thread off topic more than it is I'll ask the op to state if there is a specific budget for the deck, so as to be able to offer the best suggestions
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
His ability is better than hexproof, he's about half of teferi, mage of zhalfir at half the price, and when he dies he replaces himself. There are 3 cards worth playing that deal with him while not giving his owner value: d-spere, chained to the rocks, and anger of the gods. Anything else will atleast give the free keldon warlord, two if it's tried it on their turn. When I first saw my thought was "well, I guess this is the new giest of st. Traft", and while that is not what he is, he does contort the playstate significantly when he comes down, and in ways control really doesn't want to deal with.
So no he's not hexproof, but he warps the gamestate far more than a 2drop has any right to do.
This is astounding to me. I understand that the competitive forum forbids budget discussions and I have never posted there, but this seems the perfect place to post when one is in the middle financially.
For a moderator who has already issued an infraction to the thread author to construe budgetary concerns about very expensive cards as insulting to others essentially forces the the rules of the competitive forum here.
Is that what this forum is about? If I don't want Voice, Purphoros, Elspeth and whatever else is broken FOTM in every deck it would be helpful, I shouldn't post here? I would like to hear from some more moderators on this issue.
I have also followed the GW/x thread closely and the decks being discussed there are generally very different. Lately there has been quite a bit of discussion of whether the deck should be GWub or GWur. I am interested in a deck very similar to the one in the OP and reading the GW/x thread has generally been a waste of time.
As for the deck, I am most concerned about the number of enchantments. With only 12, 2 of which cost 5 to use as enchantments, I would be concerned about mulling hands with no or only 1 enchantment. I would remove one of the Boon Satyrs and the Hero and the Smiters would go sideboard. With those four slots, I would add some number of Gift of Orzhova, Bow of Nylea (deathtouch+first strike seems good), Spear of Heliod, the enchantments listed below and maybe another Fiendslayer Paladin. Ajani is another card worth consideration as an alternative to the artifacts.
With the Paladin, Spear or Gift, Temple Garden seems useful. A manabase of 9 Forest, 11 Plains, 4 Temple Garden with 4 Elvish Mystics should give you 13 G sources turn 1 and 15 W, 13-17 G (depending on whether the dorks eat removal) sources T2.
A big issue seems to be that we have no replacement for Rancor as a cheap enchantment. The Boon Satyr seems like the most pushed Bestow and it costs 5. Illinest has suggested Divine Favor and I am looking at Trollhide and Forced Adaptation. Neither of the relevant Ordeals really fits what the deck is trying to do particularly well, but they only cost 2 and produce a benefit on the first attack.
I am interested in the evolution of your deck, as I am working on something similar.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
It is okay to talk about budget in this forum, and I don't think we would ever move a thread to the budget forum unless he was extreme budgetting (like an entire deck for 10 dollars).
I normally don't like speaking for other mods but I'm pretty sure that's what they would say on this issue as well. It only is strictly forbidden in Competitive.
For protection - God's Willing and Rootborn Defense (great synergy with Advent)
I'd try to run 3-4 copies of everything, just so you have a concrete gameplan. If used right (especially the sideboard), GW is hard to beat.
I don't really see where you're coming from. This deck has a slightly different curve structure and a few curious choices but I don't see anything about this deck that is different enough to warrant a new thread. This could've been summed up as:
"My vote is for G/W, what do you guys think about card X, card Y and card Z?"
Now that I've seen this I'm worried that my enthusiasm for the concept is scaring people off, but what can I do about that? I don't take myself nearly as seriously as some people seem to take me.
And this thread - it seems cowardly to me. I can assure you that I would've welcomed a killer argument for limiting the concept to two colors. Don't be afraid to come up with a good argument, but if you can't come up with one then you might just be wrong. Don't be stubborn about it. Maybe G/W is the best way to go, maybe it isn't, but don't just run off to another thread and pretend as if we're the bad guys for discussing alternatives.
I've already addressed this in a more recent post. My concern was not primarily the budget but multiple threads of the same deck (save a card or 2 because of budget constraints). My point is that this thread could have been a post in the GW/x Hexproof thread with the author asking his "what can I use to replace VoR in this deck."
Sasky is a mod who responded in this thread and he actually disagrees with you.
I have followed, built and played the deck you helped foster in the last standard. I have read the entire GW/x thread. I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for your work here. You may notice that I pass on one of your ideas, with attribution.
Whoa! Cowardly? Bad guys? Really? I can't speak for the author, but I wonder whether you could be taking this a bit personally. If I had the killer argument, I wouldn't make it before seriously testing it. Who has accused you of being bad guys in any way?
Please reread your post #127 and #130 in the GW/x thread. Witchstalker, hexproof aside, is not as good as Smiter or Reckoner. Nice argument. The most broken non-hexproof creatures in the format are better than one of the few hexproofs that are available. Yeah, I wish GOST were still around, and better yet, wasn't mythic, so he would be more affordable.
I want to see if I can have fun playing Scout + enchantments or Mystic into Witchstalker or Fiendslayer + enchantments.
Just to verify what I already knew, I reviewed the latter section of the GW/x thread. Lovemeacombo's post #120 is GW, but not very similar and he thinks anyone who balks at a set of Voices should be in the budget area (post #125). TopdeckFTW posted a GW deck (that can't put Witchstalker down until T3, but which has the obligatory 4 Voices -post #132) and asked for feedback a few hours after the OP for this thread and received no response.
For GW hexproof with or w/o VOR, the S/N ratio over there is not very high.
Even with the drive by shootings and irrelevancies from Flagg, Sasky, chrisb3, darthstabber and you, Ironplushy has generated actual suggestions from Phoenixdrakenfire, myself, Zwaken and ICEmanJC. This is much better than TopdeckFTW did in the GW/x thread in a similar amount of time.
Please, Illinest, consider what is really happening over in that thread before accusing people of cowardice.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I am not sure if this is positive or negative for me so I will respond each way...
Positive: Cool.
Negative: I also played Bant Enchant last season and have created my decklist for this season and although a small sample size, have had great success with it, poor card choices aside (as listed after my deck). I truly feel that Voice of Resurgence is a "4-of" auto-include in any competitive** G/W/x Aura deck, regardless of the fact that you are going more for hexproof or not. Opponents fear him when he hits the table and they need to either deal with him on their turn (thus giving us an advantage) or suffer the consequences. That is the reasoning behind my belief that any competitive** deck without Voices should be in the Budget forum.
** I say competitive, as that was the location of the original Bant Enchant thread. I hope that the G/W/x Aura thread will be moved there as well and hope to be a driving force for that.
Decks I am playing:
taking suggestions (Legacy)
Elf Company GW (Modern)
Abbot Aggro R (Standard)
Maralen of the Mornsong B(Commander)
Just the facts, man. No judgment, except, good job going undefeated and your suggested changes make sense to me.
I agree, "competitive" forum rules forbid budget discussion. If VoR is the best card for the deck, case closed. And I am not arguing that this is not true. I managed to luck into two relatively cheaply and I play them. It's just more fun for me to play w/only two than to shell out ~$70 for two more, and that is why I don't post in the Competitive forums.
If you want GW/x to be in the competitive forum, great. I'm happy for you. Please do me a favor. Get together w/Illinest and figure out what the GW/x thread vision is. He is criticizing us for having a separate thread instead of posting in GW/x and you are saying we have no business even posting in this forum, even in our own thread.
But this is not the competitive forum, nor is this in the GW/x thread. If this forum had to run by competitive forum rules, it would not need to exist.
I have another favor to ask. You are clearly a skilled deckbuilder, certainly better than I. Ironplushy has asked for help w/his deck (other than to tell him to get VoR) in this thread and TopdeckFTW has a deck w/4 VoR in the GW/x thread that he wants help with (I like the idea of Path of Bravery, and w/Elvish Mystic he could go T1 Mystic; T2 Witchstalker; T3 Path, Ethereal, swing for 6, gain 1 life and Witchstalker can survive AoTG). Could you please give these guys the benefit of your judgment and experience?
Thanks and have fun playing!
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions! I do want to understand your basis of comparison.
Are you still working from this list?
What turn and sequencing are you using for your "giant hexproof multi enchanted monster"? Your T2 example is not hexproof and seems to invite 3/1s.
The Eidolon seems like a good idea, but 4 to bestow seems expensive and as a target, it's not hexproof. Having a 1/1 lifelinker after a wipe or a Far // Away just doesn't seem that impressive.
I struggle w/understanding your sequencing relative to AotG. Let's ignore Scout for now, as both lists can grow him out of Anger range t3.
T1 aside from scout, all you have is Eidolon which I wouldn't want to enchant, as she's not hexproof.
T2 you need Caryatid, as otherwise you will only have 3 mana T3 and AotG will wipe your board or you won't have a hexproof and can be X-for-1ed.
T3 you can Witchstalker plus 1 mana for enchantment from Caryatid. If Ethereal, then you can survive AotG.
So either you expose yourself to x-for-1s or AotG T3 wipes you out unless you have Gladecover + multiple enchants or Caryatid+Witchstalker + Ethereal. With Caryatid+Witchstalker+Ethereal+Eidolon you are a turn behind Mystic+Witchstalker+Ethereal+Path although you have an extra 1/1 non-hexproof lifelinker. Not worth except against Far // Away. What am I missing?
I actually wonder whether Leafcrown Dryad or Feral Invocation wouldn't be better than Hopeful since you get a bigger body or the ability to do tricks and represent Rootborn Defenses, but I defer to your judgment until I do some real testing.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
It is cowardice. Topdeck posted a list that was reasonably within the scope of the concept, but generated no discussion. Why is that?
1. Other members too busy to respond?
(No)
2. Other members are jerks?
(No.)
3. Other members don't understand the genius ideas?
(If that were the case then you could've just explained them better)
(A.k.a. No.)
4. The ideas weren't interesting enough (or justified well enough) to interest any of the people who've been working on the concept.
BINGO.
You guys didn't like the response you got there (failed to get, actually) so you started the same thread with the same name in hopes of getting a different audience. You ran away.
As far as what everyone is saying(The VoR comments aside); I think it is reasonable enough to warrent a new thread if this scope of it is just GREEN AND WHITE not splashing for another color. Also I don't think he really ran away from the G/W/x thread; more so just wanted a more specific thread towards what he wants to build. Which there is nothing wrong with.
Maybe the reason why people steer away from bigger threads is sort of what happened to me. You might post a deck that has a few variances from the original idea and people will just skim over it and say "Well thats not much different from what we have already discussed *SKIP*" Maybe I should have been more direct and said "What do you guys think of Path of Bravery and no Elvish Mystic?" I guess in the mean time I will wait until someone comments on my deck in the other thread
Illinest,
I don't understand how you were able to do a quick poll and determine the motivations of everyone who read TopdeckFTW's deck and didn't comment on it.
I don't understand how you could figure out that TopdeckFTW (who didn't post over here until after your post), Ironplushy (who has never posted over there) and I (who has never asked for feedback over there) are working together and responded to the impending lack of feedback to TopdeckFTW's posting by going back in time and starting a different thread about a different deck.
I think I am the only one who could really be accused of cowardice, as I have participated in both threads. If you want to project that on me, go right ahead, but please keep it to yourself. I prefer to think of my actions as a rational and reasoned response to the choices I faced.
I do object to being called a coward in public. I don't see that it fits with the forum rules that say "Be nice and respectful, don't flame or troll other users."
I also wonder whether the lack of effective feedback that I perceive in the GW/x thread is due to the diversity of decks being worked on there. When everybody is doing different things, it seems like it would be hard to help each other.
I wonder whether TopdeckFTW got no response in part because others were not doing anything similar rather than your claim that it is not interesting. Certainly, I find the idea of using Path interesting, particularly when we using enchantments like Divine Favor, Hopeful Eidolon, Unflinching Courage and Gift of Orzhova.
While a variety of creative approaches is desirable while searching for a solution, it seems difficult to work together when people are all over the map.
I do find it disturbing that you haven't provided the benefits of your experience to TopdeckFTW, Ironplushy and myself in the form of actual suggestions or questions. Does it matter what thread the information is in, as long as we can find it?
I can understand you being proud of the contribution you have made in the previous standard and wanting to make a similar one in the current standard. I certainly will not fail to credit you, whichever thread I participate in. Can you see these threads as synergistic, rather than parasitic?
Respectfully,
Hoser2
TopdeckFTW,
I apologize for using your posting in vain. If you have a problem with my referencing your post, please let me know how you would have preferred that I handle the situation.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Nope go ahead and do you. It's up to you how you handle yourself and a situation. I'll just grabbing some popcorn and enjoying the show
A fair point. I did explain the scenario where I saw that a 4 card combo could produce an attack for 6 on T3. If I were to be defensive, I might say that your argument against contained references to your deck that I wanted to understand, but I would never say that, because being defensive is bad:rolleyes:.
Thanks for the updated decklist and explanations! That really helps me understand.
I am not sure how to build this deck. Gladecover and Ethereal seem like a solid start, but I am not sure where to go from there.
In the last standard Stalker, Traft, Ethereal, Rancor and Spectral Flight seemed like a core. Avacyn's Pilgrim made for a T2 Traft, so it also became part of the core. Even in the Cavern-fueled control-hostile metagame, Ascended Lawmage seemed to be too slow. With three colors, accelerants, enchantments and hexproof creatures, the deck self-destructed a significant amount of the time.
I know Illinest tested and rejected what I am doing months ago, but I stubbornly need to understand why a core of Scout, Witchstalker, Ethereal, Courage and Mystic won't work before I move on. I think two colors may provide consistency to make up for some of the lost power. And honestly, I just need to have fun playing the deck. I don't need to win a GP.
Selesnya Charm, Fleecemane Lion, Fiendslayer and Voice (for those that can afford it) all fit the deck along with a singleton Bow (are first strike and deathtouch good together?) and Spear. Rootborn and Advent probably fit in the sideboard.
Path is interesting for the following reasons:
Is it good? I put it behind Forced Adaptation, the first GoO and the first Boon Satyr and ahead of Hopeful Eidolon. I am not sure where it stands compared to Divine Favor, Trollhide, the second Boon Satyr, Chosen by Heliod, Ordeal of Heliod, Leafwhatever Dryad, Feral Invocation #1, Spear #2 or GoO #2-4.
I need to do more testing.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Well, first off, you've done more testing than I have, so take anything I say with a huge block of salt.
The singleton Spear of Heliod for me is a windmill slam. It buffs and threatens removal. I can be representing removal with it and have Selesnya Charm.
As for the rest, I need to test more before I say anything, but while I would not run four Paths, diminishing returns applies to Spear, Path and Eidolon. I think the first path might be more valuable than the fourth Eidolon. I will test both. Spear and Path both help more than one creature, but I don't understand how important that is.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.