I've been very slowly working on a mono-black devotion deck. I've managed to trade for the big core pieces (Desecration Demon, Erebos, Whip, Nightveil Specter, and Gary, Merchant of Asphodel (I insist on calling him that)). However, I'm not able to get Thoughtseize or Hero's Downfall right now. They're way too expensive, and I'm out of good things to trade. I might be able to trade for like 2 Thoughtseizes, but that's about it. If Hero's Downfall drops back to $10 in a few weeks, I'll pick a couple of those up as well then.
So here's my question. Can MBD be somewhat competitive without either of those 2? If yes, what are some decent alternatives? The deck I'm working on (but haven't playtested yet) currently runs 4x Doom Blade, 3x Duress, and various other forms of removal. I've got access to blue mana thanks to 3 Temples & a Watery Grave, so I could probably run a few Far // Away pretty easily. Duress can sort-of work as a means to hit planeswalkers, although I can't really deal with them once they hit the board. I could maybe add in a couple of Blood Crypts & Dreadbore, but that's not instant speed, so not nearly as effective. Or Disperse/Cyclonic Rift, although I'd probably need to add in a few more blue sources to make them playable. Even then, neither of those are as good as Downfall.
There's also the option of 1 or 2 Disciple of Phenax as a pseudo-Thoughtseize; by the time she's relevant, the opponent would probably have only 4 - 5 cards in their hand. Getting 5 devotion by turn 4 shouldn't be too hard.
I'm also curious in Mutavault is really necessary for this deck. It's definitely a good card, but since I'd be running a lot of 2-black things, I'd be nervous about running too many things that don't actually produce black mana.
I also wouldn't run 4 doomblade, as it's dead in the monoblack mirror (which comes up). Ultimate Price won't do what you always want but is probably has targets against every deck. The problem with out running thoughtseize and hero"s downfall is you"re going to be quite weak to walkers and there aren't really any other cards that shore up that weakness... maybe pithing needle
rather than try for complete analogs, you can try run more pack rats, or even an abhoration overlord (requires shrines, i assume). The black devotion aggro deck isn't great, but is cheaper than the control option, and functions without hero's downfall decently (has much fewer spells lots)
I've got 1 Overlord in there; might add in a second. I'm getting a set of Rats in a trade, so there's that. Pithing Needle would be a good call, but I don't know if it'd be more a sideboard card.
I don't really want to go full aggro, but I'm not really able to get the big money cards for control. Hopefully there's a good middle ground somewhere in there.
The next best alternative to Thoughtseize is Duress. Obviously you can't pull creatures with Duress, but you can pull everything else, including Planeswalkers..all without the 2 life drawback (and the $$ expense).
For Hero's Downfall, again, I go back to Duress, as it can pull Planeswalkers before they hit the table.
If you need more from-hand creature removal, look look for lifebane zombie against white/green.
Pithing Needle is totally a sideboard card, however, if you have no other way to shut down certain threats, you don't have a choice but to maindeck. The upside, they're pretty cheap to acquire. Really going to allow you to turn off all kinds of things on the board, just be careful with it in a mirror that you don't shut off your own cards, like Underworld.
Disciple of Phenax is okay, but there are far better cards at that CMC and you can't afford the spot, I'd rather have cheap removal like DoomBlade/Ultimate Price/Devour Flesh with 4x Duress than Phenax.
Phenax is an neat idea and I expect to see it rear it's head later on in the block on a better card, it's just not there yet. Mostly because by the time you can cast it, your opponent doesn't usually have enough cards in hand to make it matter or because there are better things you should be doing with your mana or with your cards in hand/deck.
I do like Lifebane Zombie, maybe as a 2- or 3-of. My 3-mana slot is a little light right now, and I'd like a smoother curve. I don't know if its effect is too narrow; at least it hits Loxodon Smiter, though.
The next best alternative to Thoughtseize is Duress. Obviously you can't pull creatures with Duress, but you can pull everything else, including Planeswalkers..all without the 2 life drawback (and the $$ expense).
For Hero's Downfall, again, I go back to Duress, as it can pull Planeswalkers before they hit the table.
If you need more from-hand creature removal, look look for lifebane zombie against white/green.
Pithing Needle is totally a sideboard card, however, if you have no other way to shut down certain threats, you don't have a choice but to maindeck. The upside, they're pretty cheap to acquire. Really going to allow you to turn off all kinds of things on the board, just be careful with it in a mirror that you don't shut off your own cards, like Underworld.
Disciple of Phenax is okay, but there are far better cards at that CMC and you can't afford the spot, I'd rather have cheap removal like DoomBlade/Ultimate Price/Devour Flesh with 4x Duress than Phenax.
Phenax is an neat idea and I expect to see it rear it's head later on in the block on a better card, it's just not there yet. Mostly because by the time you can cast it, your opponent doesn't usually have enough cards in hand to make it matter or because there are better things you should be doing with your mana or with your cards in hand/deck.
To the OP, be aware that you CAN stop opponents' underworld connections since you can choose the land they put it on (if theyre splashing for temples or watery graves or shrines, etc) and then put yours on other lands.
Also for the OP, I probably would not try to build MBD without those 8 cards. They are HUGE in the deck and without them, you're basically playing a pile of black cards since youre weak to some very good decks. I highly recommend playing another deck, cashing, and then using credit or packs to get those cards. If that is not an option, maybe consider borrowing the 2 playsets from people you know at every tournament?
Just got to say I would HATE to have to put underworld connections on a Nyx just to get around having Pithered your opponents swamps (and thus your own) in a mirror. So if you HAVE to go that route, make sure you've got an alternate land in your deck, like a pain or scry land. In a mono color situation, generally a scry land to fix your draw is the better option.
consider borrowing the 2 playsets from people you know at every tournament?
I doubt I'll be going to tournaments any time soon. The most I'll be doing with this is FNM maybe once a month. Even then, if I can make top half, I'm happy for now. That being said, I'd still like to make a deck that can hold its own in an FNM.
You mentioned playing another deck. If I already have Demons, Whips, Erebos, Pack Rats, Specters, Gray Merchants, and removal, what direction could I take the deck in? I'd consider going more aggro, as a way to get the cards I need to make it my good build. But would that curve be too high for aggro? My only ideas right now are to make it more creature-heavy, maybe with stuff like Baleful Eidolon & Returned Phalanx. Even then, I'm not sure if that's the best option.
Just got to say I would HATE to have to put underworld connections on a Nyx just to get around having Pithered your opponents swamps (and thus your own) in a mirror. So if you HAVE to go that route, make sure you've got an alternate land in your deck, like a pain or scry land. In a mono color situation, generally a scry land to fix your draw is the better option.
You cannot use the needle on swamps. Well, technically you can but since it's a mana ability nothing happens.
You can call underworld connections but then couldn't use your own.
I doubt I'll be going to tournaments any time soon. The most I'll be doing with this is FNM maybe once a month. Even then, if I can make top half, I'm happy for now. That being said, I'd still like to make a deck that can hold its own in an FNM.
You mentioned playing another deck. If I already have Demons, Whips, Erebos, Pack Rats, Specters, Gray Merchants, and removal, what direction could I take the deck in? I'd consider going more aggro, as a way to get the cards I need to make it my good build. But would that curve be too high for aggro? My only ideas right now are to make it more creature-heavy, maybe with stuff like Baleful Eidolon & Returned Phalanx. Even then, I'm not sure if that's the best option.
I was saying play a very cheap deck like RDW or something to get some more trades and store credit or whatnot. You would be surprised what all would hold up in an FNM though. Im sure a mono black aggro deck would do just fine with what you suggested
You cannot use the needle on swamps. Well, technically you can but since it's a mana ability nothing happens.
You can call underworld connections but then couldn't use your own.
Connections gives the LAND the ability. It is NOT a mana ability so you can shut theirs down assuming you dont have yours on the same land.
Ex. Opponent puts underworld connections on swamp. You pithing needle swamp. You put a connection on a temple of deceit. Your connections can still be used while his cannot. However, if you both have them on swamp, neither can be used. If you name underworld connections...it does nothing.
Like everyone else said Duress and thoughtseize can be interchangeable. As for hero's downfall, i don't think there's a viable replacement. If your meta doesn't have a lot of esper, another removal spell is fine. Doomblade, ultimate priced, devour flesh, etc. But there's a reason the card's 15 dollars. It does something black has notoriously had a hard time doing, killing planeswalkers.
If you can splash red at all, there is always Dreadbore in place of Hero's Downfall. Not instant speed but does same thing.
Right now, I'm thinking this is the most financially-viable option. Maybe with something like 3 Blood Crypts & 1-2 Prophetic Prisms. At the very least, Prophetic Prism would let me get more out of a Nightveil Specter. Elspeth, though, would be my biggest worry; a +1 gives the opponent 3 more dudes. Unless I can deal with them relatively quickly, I could see it becoming a problem. An Abhorrent Overlord is probably the simplest way to respond, but that wouldn't come until a turn after the Dreadbore anyway. Still, until Hero's Downfall comes down in price, this will have to do.
Yeah, you need to be careful with what you name (when you cast Pithering Needle) and what your opponent has named (when they've cast Pithering Needle) so you don't make a big mistake.
Maybe this is because I play super aggressive decks, but I don't understand why Hero's Downfall is so expensive right now...It's a 3-drop removal card, it's pretty awful IMO.
Maybe this is because I play super aggressive decks, but I don't understand why Hero's Downfall is so expensive right now...It's a 3-drop removal card, it's pretty awful IMO.
Answers Literally every planeswalker and nonhexproof creature in the format. At instant speed.
I haven't seen it said but maybe consider a Phyrika's Cure in your deck. Well not the best card in a vacuum, it's fairly well positioned in the meta right now killing all but 1 creature into mono blue, mana dorks and BTE in green devo, basically everything not boros Reckoner in mono red lists and a lot of creatures in the mono black aggro deck, which people are playing to beat mono black devotion. I wouldn't run more than 2, and usually would only put it as a sideboard card but if you want to expand your removal package a bit it's something worth considering.
Right now, I'm thinking this is the most financially-viable option. Maybe with something like 3 Blood Crypts & 1-2 Prophetic Prisms. At the very least, Prophetic Prism would let me get more out of a Nightveil Specter. Elspeth, though, would be my biggest worry; a +1 gives the opponent 3 more dudes. Unless I can deal with them relatively quickly, I could see it becoming a problem. An Abhorrent Overlord is probably the simplest way to respond, but that wouldn't come until a turn after the Dreadbore anyway. Still, until Hero's Downfall comes down in price, this will have to do.
If you do go red, think about Rakdos return and slaughter games. Slaughter games can blowup the mirror. (Was on wrong end of this.) Rakdos return can empty opponents hand and just the right time.
I haven't seen it said but maybe consider a Phyrika's Cure in your deck. Well not the best card in a vacuum, it's fairly well positioned in the meta right now killing all but 1 creature into mono blue, mana dorks and BTE in green devo, basically everything not boros Reckoner in mono red lists and a lot of creatures in the mono black aggro deck, which people are playing to beat mono black devotion. I wouldn't run more than 2, and usually would only put it as a sideboard card but if you want to expand your removal package a bit it's something worth considering.
(Posts from my phone)
I believe mono black does typically have a few of those in the sb for aggro matchups. But it's more meta dependent than anything.
If you do go red, think about Rakdos return and slaughter games. Slaughter games can blowup the mirror. (Was on wrong end of this.) Rakdos return can empty opponents hand and just the right time.
Slaughter Games would be pretty ridiculous. I'm currently in the process of trading for a couple of Thoughtseizes & Hero's Downfalls, though, so I might be able to make this work after all
I think I'll likely be splashing red once Born of the Gods/Nyx (whichever one introduces the next 5 temples) comes around. I have no Blood Crypts, and I don't want to play lands that come in tapped without an upside. For the time being, I could probably make a deck work with 3 Hero's Downfalls, a 2/2 split of Thoughtseize & Duress, and various other removal (since I've got UB temples, Far // Away seems like a good choice). Planeswalkers would be my biggest concern, but this should at least help minimize that threat to the best of my ability.
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So here's my question. Can MBD be somewhat competitive without either of those 2? If yes, what are some decent alternatives? The deck I'm working on (but haven't playtested yet) currently runs 4x Doom Blade, 3x Duress, and various other forms of removal. I've got access to blue mana thanks to 3 Temples & a Watery Grave, so I could probably run a few Far // Away pretty easily. Duress can sort-of work as a means to hit planeswalkers, although I can't really deal with them once they hit the board. I could maybe add in a couple of Blood Crypts & Dreadbore, but that's not instant speed, so not nearly as effective. Or Disperse/Cyclonic Rift, although I'd probably need to add in a few more blue sources to make them playable. Even then, neither of those are as good as Downfall.
There's also the option of 1 or 2 Disciple of Phenax as a pseudo-Thoughtseize; by the time she's relevant, the opponent would probably have only 4 - 5 cards in their hand. Getting 5 devotion by turn 4 shouldn't be too hard.
I'm also curious in Mutavault is really necessary for this deck. It's definitely a good card, but since I'd be running a lot of 2-black things, I'd be nervous about running too many things that don't actually produce black mana.
I also wouldn't run 4 doomblade, as it's dead in the monoblack mirror (which comes up). Ultimate Price won't do what you always want but is probably has targets against every deck. The problem with out running thoughtseize and hero"s downfall is you"re going to be quite weak to walkers and there aren't really any other cards that shore up that weakness... maybe pithing needle
rather than try for complete analogs, you can try run more pack rats, or even an abhoration overlord (requires shrines, i assume). The black devotion aggro deck isn't great, but is cheaper than the control option, and functions without hero's downfall decently (has much fewer spells lots)
I don't really want to go full aggro, but I'm not really able to get the big money cards for control. Hopefully there's a good middle ground somewhere in there.
For Hero's Downfall, again, I go back to Duress, as it can pull Planeswalkers before they hit the table.
If you need more from-hand creature removal, look look for lifebane zombie against white/green.
Pithing Needle is totally a sideboard card, however, if you have no other way to shut down certain threats, you don't have a choice but to maindeck. The upside, they're pretty cheap to acquire. Really going to allow you to turn off all kinds of things on the board, just be careful with it in a mirror that you don't shut off your own cards, like Underworld.
Disciple of Phenax is okay, but there are far better cards at that CMC and you can't afford the spot, I'd rather have cheap removal like DoomBlade/Ultimate Price/Devour Flesh with 4x Duress than Phenax.
Phenax is an neat idea and I expect to see it rear it's head later on in the block on a better card, it's just not there yet. Mostly because by the time you can cast it, your opponent doesn't usually have enough cards in hand to make it matter or because there are better things you should be doing with your mana or with your cards in hand/deck.
To the OP, be aware that you CAN stop opponents' underworld connections since you can choose the land they put it on (if theyre splashing for temples or watery graves or shrines, etc) and then put yours on other lands.
Also for the OP, I probably would not try to build MBD without those 8 cards. They are HUGE in the deck and without them, you're basically playing a pile of black cards since youre weak to some very good decks. I highly recommend playing another deck, cashing, and then using credit or packs to get those cards. If that is not an option, maybe consider borrowing the 2 playsets from people you know at every tournament?
Wanted Card List: (PM me)
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Ravages of War
1 Swords to Plowshares (Judge)
1 Land Tax (Judge)
U
1 Mana Vortex
B
1 Desolation Angel (Foil)
1 Guardian Beast
1 Contamination
R
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
G
1 Food Chain
WUBRG
1 Rohgahh of Kher Keep
X
1 Charcoal Diamond (Foil)
1 Fellwar Stone (Foil)
T
1 Temple Garden (Foil)
3 Mutavault
1 Kor Haven
I doubt I'll be going to tournaments any time soon. The most I'll be doing with this is FNM maybe once a month. Even then, if I can make top half, I'm happy for now. That being said, I'd still like to make a deck that can hold its own in an FNM.
You mentioned playing another deck. If I already have Demons, Whips, Erebos, Pack Rats, Specters, Gray Merchants, and removal, what direction could I take the deck in? I'd consider going more aggro, as a way to get the cards I need to make it my good build. But would that curve be too high for aggro? My only ideas right now are to make it more creature-heavy, maybe with stuff like Baleful Eidolon & Returned Phalanx. Even then, I'm not sure if that's the best option.
You cannot use the needle on swamps. Well, technically you can but since it's a mana ability nothing happens.
You can call underworld connections but then couldn't use your own.
Lol. Wrong.
tapping a swamp and paying a life is not a mana ability. All this means is that if you pithing needle swamp that they can still tap it for mana ;).
Calling it on underworld connections does nothing at all because underworld is an aura that has 0 activated abilities.
I was saying play a very cheap deck like RDW or something to get some more trades and store credit or whatnot. You would be surprised what all would hold up in an FNM though. Im sure a mono black aggro deck would do just fine with what you suggested
Connections gives the LAND the ability. It is NOT a mana ability so you can shut theirs down assuming you dont have yours on the same land.
Ex. Opponent puts underworld connections on swamp. You pithing needle swamp. You put a connection on a temple of deceit. Your connections can still be used while his cannot. However, if you both have them on swamp, neither can be used. If you name underworld connections...it does nothing.
Wanted Card List: (PM me)
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Ravages of War
1 Swords to Plowshares (Judge)
1 Land Tax (Judge)
U
1 Mana Vortex
B
1 Desolation Angel (Foil)
1 Guardian Beast
1 Contamination
R
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
G
1 Food Chain
WUBRG
1 Rohgahh of Kher Keep
X
1 Charcoal Diamond (Foil)
1 Fellwar Stone (Foil)
T
1 Temple Garden (Foil)
3 Mutavault
1 Kor Haven
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
Right now, I'm thinking this is the most financially-viable option. Maybe with something like 3 Blood Crypts & 1-2 Prophetic Prisms. At the very least, Prophetic Prism would let me get more out of a Nightveil Specter. Elspeth, though, would be my biggest worry; a +1 gives the opponent 3 more dudes. Unless I can deal with them relatively quickly, I could see it becoming a problem. An Abhorrent Overlord is probably the simplest way to respond, but that wouldn't come until a turn after the Dreadbore anyway. Still, until Hero's Downfall comes down in price, this will have to do.
Answers Literally every planeswalker and nonhexproof creature in the format. At instant speed.
(Posts from my phone)
If you do go red, think about Rakdos return and slaughter games. Slaughter games can blowup the mirror. (Was on wrong end of this.) Rakdos return can empty opponents hand and just the right time.
I believe mono black does typically have a few of those in the sb for aggro matchups. But it's more meta dependent than anything.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
Slaughter Games would be pretty ridiculous. I'm currently in the process of trading for a couple of Thoughtseizes & Hero's Downfalls, though, so I might be able to make this work after all
I think I'll likely be splashing red once Born of the Gods/Nyx (whichever one introduces the next 5 temples) comes around. I have no Blood Crypts, and I don't want to play lands that come in tapped without an upside. For the time being, I could probably make a deck work with 3 Hero's Downfalls, a 2/2 split of Thoughtseize & Duress, and various other removal (since I've got UB temples, Far // Away seems like a good choice). Planeswalkers would be my biggest concern, but this should at least help minimize that threat to the best of my ability.