FYI he did have 4x Farseek. I'm coming from Junk rites like BBD is and I have to say I really like this list. I will be following the same path as the poster above me. Get some tracker's instincts in there and remove cackling counterpart. Except I plan on keeping garruk in, he's a boss, and a good way to get more creatures out later if needed.
I played the following deck at Missouri States on Sunday, I was actually one of two Prime Speaker Bant lists in the top 4 (I left before the other match finished so they could have done even better, decklists haven't been posted on TCG yet for me to check).
Quick rundown of what I played against (originally posted in the Spring States discussion:
Round 1: BUG Delver 2 - 0
Round 2: RG Aggro 1 - 2
Round 3: RUG Prime Speaker 2 - 0
Round 4: America midrange 2 - 1
Round 5: Junk Reanimator 1 - 0
Round 6: RG Aggro 2 - 1
Round 7: ID
Aggro gave me the most hassle as I don't have any Supreme Verdicts anymore, Voice of Resurgence is amazing and over performed all day long. As did Advent of the Wurm. I think the format has sped past Prime Speaker herself though, I rarely wanted to cast her when I had her and sided her out a lot. I may move to some other form of Bant or a new deck all together in a few weeks when Star City is in town.
Now looking forward with the deck, I want to say that Prime Speaker isn't pulling her weight anymore. The one match she kind of mattered was the reanimator game, we played one game that lasted over 40 minutes and it was just who could play the most Thragtusks and bounce them the most, eventually Township broke the stalemate alongisde out drawing him with Sphinxs. But anyways, Zegana isn't doing it anymore. I want to take her out and either replace her with Snapcasters or another Advent of the Wurm and something else. I think I had too much sideboard for Esper and other control matches that never came up once, and they can go to something like Centaur Healer which would be amazing against aggro.
Oh and one other note, I couldn't get a 4th Voice which is why I am playing only 3, Selesnya Charm was the quickest replacement, and actually won me 2 games because it was a charm in the main. Once by giving trample in last hailmary that I would have died in the swing back, and another when I exiled their Angel of Serenity.
this is the latest deck from SCG Pro Todd Anderson from his latest article (premium) which can be found here
I actually just went a few rounds with this list and it sure is powerful. I was working on a rough Naya Ramp list for a while but now Im almost certain that this is just a better version of it. Both decks do the same things...ramp into big fatties, clear the board with AoS and win...but where as the Naya list was more aggressive with Thundermaw and Aurelia...this 'bant ramp' list just never runs out of steam. However, some of the card choices could use more testing. For example...in my 5 or so rounds...I almost always wanted to throw in Acidic Slimes in place of Thragtusk, and the extra Progenitor Mimic at the cost of some random card. In a slower meta...I don't feel like this deck needs both Centaur Healer AND Thragtusk. You could make your 3 drop a bit more relevant by replacing the Centaur with Loxodon Smiter...or you could go for more anti-control with Acidic Slime in place of Swagtusk. Doing both would be a little greedy, as I can see you could probably use SOME life gain here but not as much as what is present. Slime is not just good against control either. In a ramp deck like this...you can cast it turn 3 and punish any deck that stumbles. Just some thoughts...for whatever they may be worth.
EDIT: I guess for the Prime Speaker synergies, Thragtusk is the better overall card here. Acidic Slime should remain sideboard material. I still think Loxodon Smiter would be just as good if not better than Centaur Healer...although you could just say its a meta call.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current standard decks:
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
I actually just went a few rounds with this list and it sure is powerful. I was working on a rough Naya Ramp list for a while but now Im almost certain that this is just a better version of it. Both decks do the same things...ramp into big fatties, clear the board with AoS and win...but where as the Naya list was more aggressive with Thundermaw and Aurelia...this 'bant ramp' list just never runs out of steam. However, some of the card choices could use more testing. For example...in my 5 or so rounds...I almost always wanted to throw in Acidic Slimes in place of Thragtusk, and the extra Progenitor Mimic at the cost of some random card. In a slower meta...I don't feel like this deck needs both Centaur Healer AND Thragtusk. You could make your 3 drop a bit more relevant by replacing the Centaur with Loxodon Smiter...or you could go for more anti-control with Acidic Slime in place of Swagtusk. Doing both would be a little greedy, as I can see you could probably use SOME life gain here but not as much as what is present. Slime is not just good against control either. In a ramp deck like this...you can cast it turn 3 and punish any deck that stumbles. Just some thoughts...for whatever they may be worth.
EDIT: I guess for the Prime Speaker synergies, Thragtusk is the better overall card here. Acidic Slime should remain sideboard material. I still think Loxodon Smiter would be just as good if not better than Centaur Healer...although you could just say its a meta call.
I haven't tested this list yet, but I feel like everything you mentioned is my initial reactions to the deck's choices. I'm personally leaning towards the full 4 Slime in the main in place of the Healers - you're right when you say you shouldn't need Healer *and* Thrag, that's why Voice is in here as our 2 drop early meat. I'm mostly concerned that just running 12 mana accelerants and 25 lands could mean not enough action or relevant plays the majority of the time if you're in topdeck mode - if nothing else I do believe Slime is almost never a bad card.
Bant Auras - I'd much rather have Slime main over the Healers, even if it's more expensive - the entire point of this list is to play 4 Somberwald Sages with 8 mana dudes and 25 lands. If it doesn't curve out, it doesn't curve out - but it needs to assume that it will if building all in on rampy mana guys.
Reanimator - They can slime us, well, we can slime them too now to keep even. If anything, VoR is likely to be boarded out (since it's low impact) in favor of playing a few more bombs vs Reanimator IMO.
I'm mostly concerned about the UWR matchup with a list like this, if the deck doesn't curve explosively early, it's done in my mind. Not because of Supreme Verdict, but because of Izzet Staticaster / Eletrickery type effects that highlight our deck's structural weakness in leaning this heavily on mana dorks.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I haven't tested this list yet, but I feel like everything you mentioned is my initial reactions to the deck's choices. I'm personally leaning towards the full 4 Slime in the main in place of the Healers - you're right when you say you shouldn't need Healer *and* Thrag, that's why Voice is in here as our 2 drop early meat. I'm mostly concerned that just running 12 mana accelerants and 25 lands could mean not enough action or relevant plays the majority of the time if you're in topdeck mode - if nothing else I do believe Slime is almost never a bad card.
Bant Auras - I'd much rather have Slime main over the Healers, even if it's more expensive - the entire point of this list is to play 4 Somberwald Sages with 8 mana dudes and 25 lands. If it doesn't curve out, it doesn't curve out - but it needs to assume that it will if building all in on rampy mana guys.
Reanimator - They can slime us, well, we can slime them too now to keep even. If anything, VoR is likely to be boarded out (since it's low impact) in favor of playing a few more bombs vs Reanimator IMO.
I'm mostly concerned about the UWR matchup with a list like this, if the deck doesn't curve explosively early, it's done in my mind. Not because of Supreme Verdict, but because of Izzet Staticaster / Eletrickery type effects that highlight our deck's structural weakness in leaning this heavily on mana dorks.
Will have to post later on an updated list!
Acidic Slimes for the Centaur Healers is bad idea. Im saying from experience in my Naya Ramp list, sometimes I lose because there just isnt enough early action. Having a 3 drop you can play on turn 2 is important...and helps you keep more hands. Otherwise you are caught in ackward situations where you have nothing but ramp in ur opening hand and then dont draw any bombs, or hands where you have nothing but bombs, 2 lands, and a Voice. Having a relevant 3 drop just really helps smooth things out.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current standard decks:
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
I've piloted this list on our Gameday to a 2-0-2 for Top8 into a Win.
My MUs were:
R1: Immortal Aggro (1-1)
R2: The Aristocrats Act 2 (2-0)
R3: Mono Red Aggro (2-0)
R4: Bant Flash (ID)
Top8: Peddler-Humanimator Crossover (2-0)
Top4: Maze's End Control (2-0)
Final: Esper Tokens (2-0)
I decided to not take the mana dork way. I also chose centaur healer over loxodon smiter, as well as an unusual maindeck choice in Unsummon. Unsummon has been very good for the deck, to stunt early rushes, stop a Sire, kill advent tokens etc. Very useful. I know this isn't a tempo deck, but unsummon provides a certain amount of versatility. The problem I have with the mana dork plan, is sometimes it doesn't pan out how you want, you just draw too many and no townships or the other way around. I don't know to explain it other than that. I really hate topdecking mana dorks when I want business. I am also a bit more unconventional in running 2 GPHunters, but he has been really good for me. I think everyone is running progenitor mimic and clone since they have insane value in the deck. Cyclonic rift has also done fairly well, acting as a one sided pseudo wrath effect.
Hi all. Im on a tablet so sorry for not linking to cards properly.
I took my variant to fnm, and scored my best result yet of 4th, in the top tier.
I included 4 Avacyn's Pilgrim and 4 Farseek for mana fixing (23 land inc. Gavony and Cavern of Souls). Enablers are Zegana and Restoration Angel. Targets Thragtusk, Angel of Serenity and Progenitor Mimic.
Fun extras: trostani, selesnya's voice, Armada Wurm and Lavinia of the Tenth. Also clone.
Spells: simic and azorius charm (didnt have any selesnya ones) and D-sphere. Cacklinv Counterpart.
Things i noticed: zegana is too vulnerable. Easy to remove, and not reliable enough. Also expensive. Replace with Big Garruk - regular card draw, constant blockers and hell fun ultimate.
Trostani is awesome - fat bum, consistent lifegain and populate on garruk and the mimic or tusk beast. Or Wurm. Was never unhappy seeing her.
Progenitor is ridiculous. Copy Serenity. Lockdown. Game over. Copy thragtusk. Super board position.
Surprise MVP (sideboard, but considering main) - Lavinia of the Tenth! Holy heck shes fun. Swarms of tokens? No problem. Reckoners? No problem. Oh, mix with restoration angel? Or mimic resto and continually bounce her? Permanent lockdown.
For those that dont know her - she detains all PERMANENTS WITH CMC 4 OR LOWER. anything greater we d-sphere or bounce. Singlehandedly saved me, stalled aggro, flumoxed the rest! With the new legend rules, she can be copied with mimic, sac the original, new one enters each turn, get the detain effect, sac the token, you still have a 4/4 protection from red ready to rumble.
My matches : control - sided 4 loxodon smiters and played them turn 2, 3 and 4, with Render Silent ready. He boardwiped, dropped an angel, couldnt stop the harrasment. 2-0 me.
(nearly) mirror - he had voice of resurgence and a few other tricks, no mimic but was a big bant beast. I made a mistake in not d-spearing his loxoton smiter and chose to play the mimic instead. He then Unflinching Courage on the smiter and paired with Silverblade
Next game sided Lavinia. Massive stall, we both gained 50 odd life, i drew serenity, game to me. Last game was all evens, he topdecked for the win. Cant remember what, but he said it was the only response he had that could win. He also said mine was the only deck he struggled against. He came first overall. 1-2 this match, so 1-1 overall.
Cant remember 3rd game, but i won, again due to lockdown with lavinia and a recurring restoration angel thanks to mimic. Think it was a bant mirror but mine was way more brutal. Especially with mimics and thrags and lavinia.
Final game was Naya humans. Damn thats a beast. First game only played 2 farseeks before being destroyed. Second game added Lavinia and Nevermore. Drew 2 nevermore early, naming Frontline Medic and Silverblade paladin. Lockdown with lavinia, resto took the win.
Final game, same story, but i never really drew bombs, basically tempo exchange with d-sphere, bouncing attackers and gaining life. Had to clone his Mayor of Avebrook to stay alive, he speared it. Took me to 3 life with me blocking to save my skin. Then another spear. Next turn i would have had Serenity
He came second.
So all in all very promising indeed! Will exchange zegana for garruk. Will take out azorius and add selesnya charm. Trostani i like, but will probably go sideboard. Maybe run 2/2 clone/counterpart. Will add either supreme verdict or divine reckoning mb (at least i can keep a bomb or mimic).
Hi all. Im on a tablet so sorry for not linking to cards properly.
I took my variant to fnm, and scored my best result yet of 4th, in the top tier.
I included 4 Avacyn's Pilgrim and 4 Farseek for mana fixing (23 land inc. Gavony and Cavern of Souls). Enablers are Zegana and Restoration Angel. Targets Thragtusk, Angel of Serenity and Progenitor Mimic.
Fun extras: trostani, selesnya's voice, Armada Wurm and Lavinia of the Tenth. Also clone.
Spells: simic and azorius charm (didnt have any selesnya ones) and D-sphere. Cacklinv Counterpart.
Things i noticed: zegana is too vulnerable. Easy to remove, and not reliable enough. Also expensive. Replace with Big Garruk - regular card draw, constant blockers and hell fun ultimate.
Trostani is awesome - fat bum, consistent lifegain and populate on garruk and the mimic or tusk beast. Or Wurm. Was never unhappy seeing her.
Progenitor is ridiculous. Copy Serenity. Lockdown. Game over. Copy thragtusk. Super board position.
Surprise MVP (sideboard, but considering main) - Lavinia of the Tenth! Holy heck shes fun. Swarms of tokens? No problem. Reckoners? No problem. Oh, mix with restoration angel? Or mimic resto and continually bounce her? Permanent lockdown.
For those that dont know her - she detains all PERMANENTS WITH CMC 4 OR LOWER. anything greater we d-sphere or bounce. Singlehandedly saved me, stalled aggro, flumoxed the rest! With the new legend rules, she can be copied with mimic, sac the original, new one enters each turn, get the detain effect, sac the token, you still have a 4/4 protection from red ready to rumble.
My matches : control - sided 4 loxodon smiters and played them turn 2, 3 and 4, with Render Silent ready. He boardwiped, dropped an angel, couldnt stop the harrasment. 2-0 me.
(nearly) mirror - he had voice of resurgence and a few other tricks, no mimic but was a big bant beast. I made a mistake in not d-spearing his loxoton smiter and chose to play the mimic instead. He then Unflinching Courage on the smiter and paired with Silverblade
Next game sided Lavinia. Massive stall, we both gained 50 odd life, i drew serenity, game to me. Last game was all evens, he topdecked for the win. Cant remember what, but he said it was the only response he had that could win. He also said mine was the only deck he struggled against. He came first overall. 1-2 this match, so 1-1 overall.
Cant remember 3rd game, but i won, again due to lockdown with lavinia and a recurring restoration angel thanks to mimic. Think it was a bant mirror but mine was way more brutal. Especially with mimics and thrags and lavinia.
Final game was Naya humans. Damn thats a beast. First game only played 2 farseeks before being destroyed. Second game added Lavinia and Nevermore. Drew 2 nevermore early, naming Frontline Medic and Silverblade paladin. Lockdown with lavinia, resto took the win.
Final game, same story, but i never really drew bombs, basically tempo exchange with d-sphere, bouncing attackers and gaining life. Had to clone his Mayor of Avebrook to stay alive, he speared it. Took me to 3 life with me blocking to save my skin. Then another spear. Next turn i would have had Serenity
He came second.
So all in all very promising indeed! Will exchange zegana for garruk. Will take out azorius and add selesnya charm. Trostani i like, but will probably go sideboard. Maybe run 2/2 clone/counterpart. Will add either supreme verdict or divine reckoning mb (at least i can keep a bomb or mimic).
So, I don't get the logic out taking out PSZegana because she is too slow, but leaving in AOSerenity? That doesn't make sense. Both have immediate impact. One is hand fill and the other board control. The whole point of the deck is to ramp into PSZegana, Clone effects, Thragtusk, AOSerenity, GPHunter and SRevs.
If Lavinia works for you mainboard that's fine. I cant argue metagame. Although maindecking her in general I think is not a good idea since she will be useless some matches. The pseudo lock is cute, but this deck can produce serious power. If I want earlier plays to interact with agro, Centaur Healer seems best. Lavinia might be ok from the sideboard as additional help, but not mainboard.
So, I don't get the logic out taking out PSZegana because she is too slow, but leaving in AOSerenity? That doesn't make sense. Both have immediate impact. One is hand fill and the other board control. The whole point of the deck is to ramp into PSZegana, Clone effects, Thragtusk, AOSerenity, GPHunter and SRevs.
If Lavinia works for you mainboard that's fine. I cant argue metagame. Although maindecking her in general I think is not a good idea since she will be useless some matches. The pseudo lock is cute, but this deck can produce serious power. If I want earlier plays to interact with agro, Centaur Healer seems best. Lavinia might be ok from the sideboard as additional help, but not mainboard.
I guess from my experience the other night i didnt really get too much benefit from Zegana - its nice having card draw, i'll give her another shot, i just found that at 6cmc id rather be dropping AoS or Armada Wurm (if i have it) or Progenitor mimic. Wheras at 5cmc i have Thragtusk and Lavinia (if boarded)
The semi-lock was super awesome, either AoS or Lavinia, against the Naya Humans it was actually difficult to push through because they drop so many damn creatures all the time. Even eliminating 3 they still had blockers on the ground, and enough offense to still be a pain in the ass, or attack and then spear my AoS. Lavinia stopped that dead. Similarly the Bant aggro with Paladins, Healers, Smiters, Courage, rancor etc was also matching me card for card, i couldnt out pace them, we were stalled just building massive boards and hoping for a wipe. Again Lavinia removed everything he had allowing me to crash through.
I guess its a meta-call, i just found that zegana as a creature wasnt powerful enough (big, maybe, but not flying, or token producer etc) wheras garruk cost one less, fit my curve a little better and could either be insta-draw for one card less than Zegana only, or drop continual blocker (mega helpful if im up against a swarm) whilst threatening ultimate.
Well, if your metagame is that aggressive, mainboard like 2-3 supreme verdicts. I know it can be rough if they overwhelm you and combine it with burn spells. SVerdicts aren't amazing, but can turn the tide. Or, sometimes I shoot for ramp into Thragtusk, the Clone him or fo the Restoration Angel blink shenanigans. Gotta get there, I know. I also mainboard Unsummon, which helps, and sideboard Selesnya Charms for Sire etc. I think a lot of it is, you just cant be doing nothing but Farseek then waiting to hit Thragtusk etc. I had loxodon smiter for awhile, but the synergy with Restoration Angel is why I chose Centaur Healer, and even though he eats searing spear, sometimes the three life is relevant. The other option is VoResurgence on turn two. Voice is great against agro early, after that, not so much. After a point you need to break the board open, and supreme verdict helps. I think the deck wants PSZegana regardless, its just a body that is a SRev, and can be flickered by Restoration Angel if need be. Having GPHunter/PSZegana/SRev as your draw engine always helps. PSZegana doesn't change board states, but the draw provided helps you get stuff so you can change boardstate.
I have been running this deck(or a similar variant) for a few weeks now, and it has been performing amazing. I will post my deck list tomorrow, when I get a chance.
I know my list isn't running Prime Speaker, but she was usually the weakest card in the deck with all of this removal running around. Many times she would turn out to be a 6 drop 1/1 or 2/2. So I cut the two copies I had of her, for an Aetherling, and one more Sphinx's revelation. I also just recently added the two copies of Cavern of Souls and it has been a great addition, making sure I can land a timely angel or shapeshifter.
What do you guys think about a Bant Ramp deck? I think that having the option to play turn 4 Angel of Serenity or Aetherling with a blink mana open is great. Something like this?
I wanted to note that I feel like this is a bad format for Azorius Charm, so I replaced it with Cyclonic Rift. You don't want to have a bunch of charms in your hand against voice of resurgence. Cyclonic rift also give you the ability to 'race' with Aetherling just a well if not better than the charm does.
I know my list isn't running Prime Speaker, but she was usually the weakest card in the deck with all of this removal running around. Many times she would turn out to be a 6 drop 1/1 or 2/2. So I cut the two copies I had of her, for an Aetherling, and one more Sphinx's revelation. I also just recently added the two copies of Cavern of Souls and it has been a great addition, making sure I can land a timely angel or shapeshifter.
I think it's a very solid list, but I can't understand why you'd prefer Sphinx's Revelation over Prime Speaker. I'm not saying the deck *needs* one or the other, or that playing one over the other is correct/incorrect at all. Just in a logical sense thinking of the deck in a vacuum and how it interacts with itself, you're a deck with 26+ creatures. That alone should ensure that Prime Speaker Zegana is rarely a 1/1 for 6 mana. The more creature heavy bant you go, the more consistent/better on average Prime Speaker becomes. Conversely, the more controlling lists that do not run mana dorks or in the neighborhood of 18 creatures or less, Prime Speaker is a mere 2-of, or not in there at all, justifiably.
Zegana by her complete lonesome self is probably one of the "worst" mythics ever printed, and so is Progenitor Mimic; in that they do next to nothing by themselves. Your deck has to be set up to make them work, and they should work the majority of the time on average. What kind of matches have you done where Zegana was a 1/1 for 6 all the time? Jund I'm guessing? I think you should try to evaluate her usefulness, good or bad depending on the matchup rather and then see where she stands, if she needs to be reduced in number or cut.
Sorry if that comes off as lecturing, that's not my intent at all, I'm just asking in sincerity and trying to make the simple case that the creature heavier versions naturally gravitate more towards Zegana, whereas the controllier version of this deck gravitates more towards Sphinx's Revelation.
I'm also starting to think the best version of Bant Midrange (currently) going forward is the "hybrid" version - 18ish creatures, 2 Prime Speaker // 3x Sphinx's split, with a lot of versatile answers and no mana dudes.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
What do you guys think about a Bant Ramp deck? I think that having the option to play turn 4 Angel of Serenity or Aetherling with a blink mana open is great. Something like this?
I wanted to note that I feel like this is a bad format for Azorius Charm, so I replaced it with Cyclonic Rift. You don't want to have a bunch of charms in your hand against voice of resurgence. Cyclonic rift also give you the ability to 'race' with Aetherling just a well if not better than the charm does.
I hate to say it, but the idea is solid, but the structural cards to make this work aren't there at all right now.
Let me illustrate the ramp decks of old; last years good old Primeval Titan Wolf Run Ramp;
-You had 8x T2 ramp spells that pulled land straight out of the deck; Rampant Growth + Farseek, before M13 it was still a great deck and relied on Sphere of the Suns as a 4x of staple. That guarantees not only consistent ramp, but early ramp, along with deck thinning - a subtle but very important point, mana dorks do not thin the deck for you, and you're more succeptible to bad topdecks. Ramp decks before Primeval Titan had to rely very heavily upon Harmonize - raw draw power helped the deck get to it's bombs when it had too much mana and not enough action, or not enough lands and too much heavy stuff, or got it the ramp it needed to cast it's heavy stuff, whatever, etc. If you were in any of these scenarios, too much land, too many bombs not enough lands, or just hadn't found the bombs yet - you just drew cards. Garruk, Primal Hunter does a good Harmonize impression, but he won't work if you're too far behind, and the format is extremely fast and unforgiving right now to just take a turn off and draw or ramp. Whatever it is you ramp into needs to kill everything dead or just invalidate whatever they have on the board.
-You had Solemn Simulacrum - I miss this guy so much right now, and seriously think that it's a crime that there's such a lack of good "early value dudes" in standard right now. Even something in the vein of Coiling Oracle - there's Elvish Visionary and Gatecreeper Vine, but as raw comparisons you can see how they're much weaker. Then you begin to see that the key pieces aren't there currently.
-You had 4x Green Sun's Zenith - If you don't have your ramp target currently in hand, there's 4 cards in the deck guaranteed to get it straight into play when you have the mana for it.
I'm not trying to shoot your idea down at all, I'm merely showing the parallels of why it worked smoothly then, and how we don't have much of a similar structure at all to work with right now. If we want to "ramp* we've got to rely on mana-dudes. We've got to have some card draw to get through the bad topdecks/too many mana dudes in hand/too much ramp and no action draws. A tutor effect like Green Sun's Zenith just completely fixes that problem so cleanly (plus gives some toolboxing plays to the deck).
And then it's a question of, what are we ramping to, and why? Angel of Serenity is great..most of the time. She's a very powerful (generally) reactive card, rarely proactive, and therefore something you rarely want to slam down on T4. Against nutdrawing aggro, sure, yeah. She's the perfect thing to stabilize you, but you're taking a craps shoot hoping you ramp perfectly, and actually have her in hand/get to her in a few draws if you don't, but you obviously added a bunch of sweepers for that. Or you have to play a ton of sweepers or have the right answers until you can get there in the meantime.
In a nutshell, cracking a deck like this, again the idea is sound, the numbers are probably off, but if you're willing to put in the work (I am!) the goal should ideally be to trim as many situational/bad cards and fill in the gaps with as many reactive answers/roadblocks as possible...I believe you'd end up with Bant Control then. =P There's definitely merit to the completely proactive ramping approach, but with what limited tools we have in this format, I don't see how it can be done anywhere near the level it was done in last year's standard. TLDR: Last year's ramp deck was "ramp-combo" or "ramp-aggro" in a sense, where Bant Control is just enough ramp but completely on the control spectrum, it doesn't try to/and can't just ramp and kill people until it has complete control of the game. Primetime and friends (by friend we mean the hated Inkmoth Nexus) had the ability to just ignore whatever the opponent was doing and go through them, if you ramped and weren't dead by then, you'd just win.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I think it's a very solid list, but I can't understand why you'd prefer Sphinx's Revelation over Prime Speaker. I'm not saying the deck *needs* one or the other, or that playing one over the other is correct/incorrect at all. Just in a logical sense thinking of the deck in a vacuum and how it interacts with itself, you're a deck with 26+ creatures. That alone should ensure that Prime Speaker Zegana is rarely a 1/1 for 6 mana. The more creature heavy bant you go, the more consistent/better on average Prime Speaker becomes. Conversely, the more controlling lists that do not run mana dorks or in the neighborhood of 18 creatures or less, Prime Speaker is a mere 2-of, or not in there at all, justifiably.
Zegana by her complete lonesome self is probably one of the "worst" mythics ever printed, and so is Progenitor Mimic; in that they do next to nothing by themselves. Your deck has to be set up to make them work, and they should work the majority of the time on average. What kind of matches have you done where Zegana was a 1/1 for 6 all the time? Jund I'm guessing? I think you should try to evaluate her usefulness, good or bad depending on the matchup rather and then see where she stands, if she needs to be reduced in number or cut.
Sorry if that comes off as lecturing, that's not my intent at all, I'm just asking in sincerity and trying to make the simple case that the creature heavier versions naturally gravitate more towards Zegana, whereas the controllier version of this deck gravitates more towards Sphinx's Revelation.
I'm also starting to think the best version of Bant Midrange (currently) going forward is the "hybrid" version - 18ish creatures, 2 Prime Speaker // 3x Sphinx's split, with a lot of versatile answers and no mana dudes.
No worries, just after a good amount of playtesting, cutting prime speaker has done me better. Maybe it is not the same for everyone else. But for me, I feel like I made the right choice! And the deck has been putting up great results for me.(I have gone X-0 at two FNMs, one X-0 at gameday, one X-1 at FNM and two X-1s at a Monday night event my shop has.) My shop is pretty competitive too.
I hate to say it, but the idea is solid, but the structural cards to make this work aren't there at all right now.
Let me illustrate the ramp decks of old; last years good old Primeval Titan Wolf Run Ramp;
-You had 8x T2 ramp spells that pulled land straight out of the deck; Rampant Growth + Farseek, before M13 it was still a great deck and relied on Sphere of the Suns as a 4x of staple. That guarantees not only consistent ramp, but early ramp, along with deck thinning - a subtle but very important point, mana dorks do not thin the deck for you, and you're more succeptible to bad topdecks. Ramp decks before Primeval Titan had to rely very heavily upon Harmonize - raw draw power helped the deck get to it's bombs when it had too much mana and not enough action, or not enough lands and too much heavy stuff, or got it the ramp it needed to cast it's heavy stuff, whatever, etc. If you were in any of these scenarios, too much land, too many bombs not enough lands, or just hadn't found the bombs yet - you just drew cards. Garruk, Primal Hunter does a good Harmonize impression, but he won't work if you're too far behind, and the format is extremely fast and unforgiving right now to just take a turn off and draw or ramp. Whatever it is you ramp into needs to kill everything dead or just invalidate whatever they have on the board.
-You had Solemn Simulacrum - I miss this guy so much right now, and seriously think that it's a crime that there's such a lack of good "early value dudes" in standard right now. Even something in the vein of Coiling Oracle - there's Elvish Visionary and Gatecreeper Vine, but as raw comparisons you can see how they're much weaker. Then you begin to see that the key pieces aren't there currently.
-You had 4x Green Sun's Zenith - If you don't have your ramp target currently in hand, there's 4 cards in the deck guaranteed to get it straight into play when you have the mana for it.
I'm not trying to shoot your idea down at all, I'm merely showing the parallels of why it worked smoothly then, and how we don't have much of a similar structure at all to work with right now. If we want to "ramp* we've got to rely on mana-dudes. We've got to have some card draw to get through the bad topdecks/too many mana dudes in hand/too much ramp and no action draws. A tutor effect like Green Sun's Zenith just completely fixes that problem so cleanly (plus gives some toolboxing plays to the deck).
And then it's a question of, what are we ramping to, and why? Angel of Serenity is great..most of the time. She's a very powerful (generally) reactive card, rarely proactive, and therefore something you rarely want to slam down on T4. Against nutdrawing aggro, sure, yeah. She's the perfect thing to stabilize you, but you're taking a craps shoot hoping you ramp perfectly, and actually have her in hand/get to her in a few draws if you don't, but you obviously added a bunch of sweepers for that. Or you have to play a ton of sweepers or have the right answers until you can get there in the meantime.
In a nutshell, cracking a deck like this, again the idea is sound, the numbers are probably off, but if you're willing to put in the work (I am!) the goal should ideally be to trim as many situational/bad cards and fill in the gaps with as many reactive answers/roadblocks as possible...I believe you'd end up with Bant Control then. =P There's definitely merit to the completely proactive ramping approach, but with what limited tools we have in this format, I don't see how it can be done anywhere near the level it was done in last year's standard. TLDR: Last year's ramp deck was "ramp-combo" or "ramp-aggro" in a sense, where Bant Control is just enough ramp but completely on the control spectrum, it doesn't try to/and can't just ramp and kill people until it has complete control of the game. Primetime and friends (by friend we mean the hated Inkmoth Nexus) had the ability to just ignore whatever the opponent was doing and go through them, if you ramped and weren't dead by then, you'd just win.
While I agree with most of what you say, I do believe that the cards that we do have available to us are very powerful. We have the great cards to ramp into that can attack from multiple angles. Aetherling backed with a large ammount of mana cannot be reckoned with. It is our 'inkmoth' win from the wolf run days.
We don't need to rely on harmonize effects since we have access to the 'go big' end game of Sphinx's Revelation.
What I do think I need to hammer down is the early interaction. We need to not just die to blitz strategies. Supreme verdict is a good tool, and I believe cyclonic rift is excellent as well.
I played this tonight at FNM and went 3-0-1 beating r/g aggro, boros, b/u/g control, drawing with u/w/r in the finals. I don't think I like the sideboard.
This deck continues to perform so well for me. Monday night tournament at my local shop, I went X-0 again. I am thinking about taking it to a SCG event this weekend, but its about a 2 hour drive, and Idk if I want to make the drive haha.
Hey all I've been working on Prime speaker bant for a couple weeks now and have had some great success with the deck at FNM. Here is the list I'm running atm
SB
2 acidic slime
1 progenitor mimic
2 dispel
1 supreme verdict
1 sigarda, host of herons
1 garruk primal, hunter
2 advent of the wurm
1 selesnya charm
2 ray of revelation
2 rest in peace
a couple of notes the Main deck is stacked against aggro and midrange game one, with some help against control coming out of the side. the first thing that I've learned is that progenitor mimic is 9/10 times going to turn the game decidedly in your favor, I've used it to copy angel of serenity, blood baron of vizkopa, thragtusk, reckoner, rhox faithmender and any value creature honestly. He's a powerhouse and if left unchecked will win you the game. the fact that it's restoration angel target is also a huge bonus. I came in second place last FNM with this build only losing one game before the finals to Naya midrange, and then losing to jund in the finals which was mostly due to me being a bad player and not trusting my instincts on what was admittedly a bad hand. I think this deck is very resilient and has the tools to come back from very poor starts or against an overwhelming opposing board position by landing a mimic or an AoS or Zegana. That being said it plays our more like a control deck, that is admittedly very weak against verdicts and terminus. However, the format doesn't have many UWR control builds atm so you don't often find a bad matchup.
Hi all. I am probably pretty late to the party, but I have been playing Prime Speaker Bant for a few weeks now and have won several FNMs. My list is based on the Paul Rietzl/Matt Sperling list they played about a month ago with one of them winning a PTQ and one winning a WMCQ. Here is a link to a discussion they had about it (sorry if this has already been posted):
original post is near the bottom of page 9 of this thread. there's a video on the post above it that's a good watch to get bbd's insight into the deck.
that said, i'm just waiting for 1 progenitor mimic and one aetherling (why you so slow mr postman) but with proxies running in the places for a short while this is working really well. it feels a bit like reanimator which is no real surprise seeing who was behind the deck in the first place. i have made 1 switch though and that was to take out the garruk's for sphinx's revelation because i missed the card draw aspect of prime speaker bant.
all in all i'm really enjoying the deck.
Further to this, someone suggested trackers instinct. Ive cut the cackling and garruks mb for 4 trackers instincts and haven't looked back. It thins your deck (an issue discussed above) and helps you find threats late to mid game. Ive had opponents side in gy hate games 2/3 just to deal with this, slowing thier plays down by a turn which is nice :).
My sideboard isnt optimum (no $60 stags unfortunatly) but so far ive gone 6-2 (3-1 both times) at the local fnm with this deck beating most of the major archetypes, except aristocrats.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
2 Angel of Serenity
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Prime Speaker Zegana
4 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
3 Voice of Resurgence
spells
3 Advent of the Wurm
2 Azorius Charm
1 Cyclonic Rift
2 Detention Sphere
4 Farseek
1 Selesnya Charm
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Breeding Pool
4 Temple Garden
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Hinterland Harbor
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Gavony Township
4 Sunpetal Grove
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
1 Dissipate
1 Pithing Needle
1 Psychic Spiral
1 Purify the Grave
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Rest in Peace
1 Selesnya Charm
1 Syncopate
4 Supreme Verdict
Quick rundown of what I played against (originally posted in the Spring States discussion:
Round 1: BUG Delver 2 - 0
Round 2: RG Aggro 1 - 2
Round 3: RUG Prime Speaker 2 - 0
Round 4: America midrange 2 - 1
Round 5: Junk Reanimator 1 - 0
Round 6: RG Aggro 2 - 1
Round 7: ID
Quaterfinals: Naya midrange 2 - 0
Semifinals: RB Zombies 0 - 2
Aggro gave me the most hassle as I don't have any Supreme Verdicts anymore, Voice of Resurgence is amazing and over performed all day long. As did Advent of the Wurm. I think the format has sped past Prime Speaker herself though, I rarely wanted to cast her when I had her and sided her out a lot. I may move to some other form of Bant or a new deck all together in a few weeks when Star City is in town.
Now looking forward with the deck, I want to say that Prime Speaker isn't pulling her weight anymore. The one match she kind of mattered was the reanimator game, we played one game that lasted over 40 minutes and it was just who could play the most Thragtusks and bounce them the most, eventually Township broke the stalemate alongisde out drawing him with Sphinxs. But anyways, Zegana isn't doing it anymore. I want to take her out and either replace her with Snapcasters or another Advent of the Wurm and something else. I think I had too much sideboard for Esper and other control matches that never came up once, and they can go to something like Centaur Healer which would be amazing against aggro.
Oh and one other note, I couldn't get a 4th Voice which is why I am playing only 3, Selesnya Charm was the quickest replacement, and actually won me 2 games because it was a charm in the main. Once by giving trample in last hailmary that I would have died in the swing back, and another when I exiled their Angel of Serenity.
I actually just went a few rounds with this list and it sure is powerful. I was working on a rough Naya Ramp list for a while but now Im almost certain that this is just a better version of it. Both decks do the same things...ramp into big fatties, clear the board with AoS and win...but where as the Naya list was more aggressive with Thundermaw and Aurelia...this 'bant ramp' list just never runs out of steam. However, some of the card choices could use more testing. For example...in my 5 or so rounds...I almost always wanted to throw in Acidic Slimes in place of Thragtusk, and the extra Progenitor Mimic at the cost of some random card. In a slower meta...I don't feel like this deck needs both Centaur Healer AND Thragtusk. You could make your 3 drop a bit more relevant by replacing the Centaur with Loxodon Smiter...or you could go for more anti-control with Acidic Slime in place of Swagtusk. Doing both would be a little greedy, as I can see you could probably use SOME life gain here but not as much as what is present. Slime is not just good against control either. In a ramp deck like this...you can cast it turn 3 and punish any deck that stumbles. Just some thoughts...for whatever they may be worth.
EDIT: I guess for the Prime Speaker synergies, Thragtusk is the better overall card here. Acidic Slime should remain sideboard material. I still think Loxodon Smiter would be just as good if not better than Centaur Healer...although you could just say its a meta call.
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
I haven't tested this list yet, but I feel like everything you mentioned is my initial reactions to the deck's choices. I'm personally leaning towards the full 4 Slime in the main in place of the Healers - you're right when you say you shouldn't need Healer *and* Thrag, that's why Voice is in here as our 2 drop early meat. I'm mostly concerned that just running 12 mana accelerants and 25 lands could mean not enough action or relevant plays the majority of the time if you're in topdeck mode - if nothing else I do believe Slime is almost never a bad card.
Bant Auras - I'd much rather have Slime main over the Healers, even if it's more expensive - the entire point of this list is to play 4 Somberwald Sages with 8 mana dudes and 25 lands. If it doesn't curve out, it doesn't curve out - but it needs to assume that it will if building all in on rampy mana guys.
Reanimator - They can slime us, well, we can slime them too now to keep even. If anything, VoR is likely to be boarded out (since it's low impact) in favor of playing a few more bombs vs Reanimator IMO.
I'm mostly concerned about the UWR matchup with a list like this, if the deck doesn't curve explosively early, it's done in my mind. Not because of Supreme Verdict, but because of Izzet Staticaster / Eletrickery type effects that highlight our deck's structural weakness in leaning this heavily on mana dorks.
Will have to post later on an updated list!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Acidic Slimes for the Centaur Healers is bad idea. Im saying from experience in my Naya Ramp list, sometimes I lose because there just isnt enough early action. Having a 3 drop you can play on turn 2 is important...and helps you keep more hands. Otherwise you are caught in ackward situations where you have nothing but ramp in ur opening hand and then dont draw any bombs, or hands where you have nothing but bombs, 2 lands, and a Voice. Having a relevant 3 drop just really helps smooth things out.
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
My MUs were:
R1: Immortal Aggro (1-1)
R2: The Aristocrats Act 2 (2-0)
R3: Mono Red Aggro (2-0)
R4: Bant Flash (ID)
Top8: Peddler-Humanimator Crossover (2-0)
Top4: Maze's End Control (2-0)
Final: Esper Tokens (2-0)
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
1 AEtherling
3 Prime Speaker Zegana
2 Angel of Serenity
4 Farseek
4 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Simic Charm
2 Selesnya Charm
1 Syncopate
4 Temple Garden
2 Sunpetal Grove
3 Breeding Pool
4 Hinterland Harbor
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Stomping Ground
2 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Forest
Instant ramp from turn 3/4 into a 6 or 7 drop is brutal.
I took my variant to fnm, and scored my best result yet of 4th, in the top tier.
I included 4 Avacyn's Pilgrim and 4 Farseek for mana fixing (23 land inc. Gavony and Cavern of Souls). Enablers are Zegana and Restoration Angel. Targets Thragtusk, Angel of Serenity and Progenitor Mimic.
Fun extras: trostani, selesnya's voice, Armada Wurm and Lavinia of the Tenth. Also clone.
Spells: simic and azorius charm (didnt have any selesnya ones) and D-sphere. Cacklinv Counterpart.
Things i noticed: zegana is too vulnerable. Easy to remove, and not reliable enough. Also expensive. Replace with Big Garruk - regular card draw, constant blockers and hell fun ultimate.
Trostani is awesome - fat bum, consistent lifegain and populate on garruk and the mimic or tusk beast. Or Wurm. Was never unhappy seeing her.
Progenitor is ridiculous. Copy Serenity. Lockdown. Game over. Copy thragtusk. Super board position.
Surprise MVP (sideboard, but considering main) - Lavinia of the Tenth! Holy heck shes fun. Swarms of tokens? No problem. Reckoners? No problem. Oh, mix with restoration angel? Or mimic resto and continually bounce her? Permanent lockdown.
For those that dont know her - she detains all PERMANENTS WITH CMC 4 OR LOWER. anything greater we d-sphere or bounce. Singlehandedly saved me, stalled aggro, flumoxed the rest! With the new legend rules, she can be copied with mimic, sac the original, new one enters each turn, get the detain effect, sac the token, you still have a 4/4 protection from red ready to rumble.
My matches : control - sided 4 loxodon smiters and played them turn 2, 3 and 4, with Render Silent ready. He boardwiped, dropped an angel, couldnt stop the harrasment. 2-0 me.
(nearly) mirror - he had voice of resurgence and a few other tricks, no mimic but was a big bant beast. I made a mistake in not d-spearing his loxoton smiter and chose to play the mimic instead. He then Unflinching Courage on the smiter and paired with Silverblade
Next game sided Lavinia. Massive stall, we both gained 50 odd life, i drew serenity, game to me. Last game was all evens, he topdecked for the win. Cant remember what, but he said it was the only response he had that could win. He also said mine was the only deck he struggled against. He came first overall. 1-2 this match, so 1-1 overall.
Cant remember 3rd game, but i won, again due to lockdown with lavinia and a recurring restoration angel thanks to mimic. Think it was a bant mirror but mine was way more brutal. Especially with mimics and thrags and lavinia.
Final game was Naya humans. Damn thats a beast. First game only played 2 farseeks before being destroyed. Second game added Lavinia and Nevermore. Drew 2 nevermore early, naming Frontline Medic and Silverblade paladin. Lockdown with lavinia, resto took the win.
Final game, same story, but i never really drew bombs, basically tempo exchange with d-sphere, bouncing attackers and gaining life. Had to clone his Mayor of Avebrook to stay alive, he speared it. Took me to 3 life with me blocking to save my skin. Then another spear. Next turn i would have had Serenity
He came second.
So all in all very promising indeed! Will exchange zegana for garruk. Will take out azorius and add selesnya charm. Trostani i like, but will probably go sideboard. Maybe run 2/2 clone/counterpart. Will add either supreme verdict or divine reckoning mb (at least i can keep a bomb or mimic).
Super fun to play!
can we see your list
If Lavinia works for you mainboard that's fine. I cant argue metagame. Although maindecking her in general I think is not a good idea since she will be useless some matches. The pseudo lock is cute, but this deck can produce serious power. If I want earlier plays to interact with agro, Centaur Healer seems best. Lavinia might be ok from the sideboard as additional help, but not mainboard.
I guess from my experience the other night i didnt really get too much benefit from Zegana - its nice having card draw, i'll give her another shot, i just found that at 6cmc id rather be dropping AoS or Armada Wurm (if i have it) or Progenitor mimic. Wheras at 5cmc i have Thragtusk and Lavinia (if boarded)
The semi-lock was super awesome, either AoS or Lavinia, against the Naya Humans it was actually difficult to push through because they drop so many damn creatures all the time. Even eliminating 3 they still had blockers on the ground, and enough offense to still be a pain in the ass, or attack and then spear my AoS. Lavinia stopped that dead. Similarly the Bant aggro with Paladins, Healers, Smiters, Courage, rancor etc was also matching me card for card, i couldnt out pace them, we were stalled just building massive boards and hoping for a wipe. Again Lavinia removed everything he had allowing me to crash through.
I guess its a meta-call, i just found that zegana as a creature wasnt powerful enough (big, maybe, but not flying, or token producer etc) wheras garruk cost one less, fit my curve a little better and could either be insta-draw for one card less than Zegana only, or drop continual blocker (mega helpful if im up against a swarm) whilst threatening ultimate.
Whatever works hey :-P
2 Arbor Elf
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Voice of Resurgence
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Restoration Angel
2 Acidic Slime
4 Thragtusk
1 Aetherling
2 Progenitor Mimic
2 Angel of Serenity
Spells:
1 Syncopate
4 Farseek
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Glacial Fortress
3 Breeding Pool
3 Hinterland Harbor
3 Temple Garden
3 Sunpetal Grove
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Stomping Ground
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Rhox Faithmender
1 Restoration Angel
1 Aetherling
1 Acidic Slime
2 Detention Sphere
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
1 Negate
1 Dissipate
2 Rest in Peace
I know my list isn't running Prime Speaker, but she was usually the weakest card in the deck with all of this removal running around. Many times she would turn out to be a 6 drop 1/1 or 2/2. So I cut the two copies I had of her, for an Aetherling, and one more Sphinx's revelation. I also just recently added the two copies of Cavern of Souls and it has been a great addition, making sure I can land a timely angel or shapeshifter.
3 Aetherling
3 Thragtusk
1 Sylvan Primordial
3 Avacy's Pilgrim
4 Farseek
4 Ranger's Path
1 Urban Evolution
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Cyclonic Rift
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Terminus
4 Breeding Pool
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Hinterland Harbor
1 Forest
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Terminus
1 Sylvan Primordial
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Renounce the Guilds
2 Selesnya Charm
3 Dispel
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Oblivion ring
I wanted to note that I feel like this is a bad format for Azorius Charm, so I replaced it with Cyclonic Rift. You don't want to have a bunch of charms in your hand against voice of resurgence. Cyclonic rift also give you the ability to 'race' with Aetherling just a well if not better than the charm does.
I think it's a very solid list, but I can't understand why you'd prefer Sphinx's Revelation over Prime Speaker. I'm not saying the deck *needs* one or the other, or that playing one over the other is correct/incorrect at all. Just in a logical sense thinking of the deck in a vacuum and how it interacts with itself, you're a deck with 26+ creatures. That alone should ensure that Prime Speaker Zegana is rarely a 1/1 for 6 mana. The more creature heavy bant you go, the more consistent/better on average Prime Speaker becomes. Conversely, the more controlling lists that do not run mana dorks or in the neighborhood of 18 creatures or less, Prime Speaker is a mere 2-of, or not in there at all, justifiably.
Zegana by her complete lonesome self is probably one of the "worst" mythics ever printed, and so is Progenitor Mimic; in that they do next to nothing by themselves. Your deck has to be set up to make them work, and they should work the majority of the time on average. What kind of matches have you done where Zegana was a 1/1 for 6 all the time? Jund I'm guessing? I think you should try to evaluate her usefulness, good or bad depending on the matchup rather and then see where she stands, if she needs to be reduced in number or cut.
Sorry if that comes off as lecturing, that's not my intent at all, I'm just asking in sincerity and trying to make the simple case that the creature heavier versions naturally gravitate more towards Zegana, whereas the controllier version of this deck gravitates more towards Sphinx's Revelation.
I'm also starting to think the best version of Bant Midrange (currently) going forward is the "hybrid" version - 18ish creatures, 2 Prime Speaker // 3x Sphinx's split, with a lot of versatile answers and no mana dudes.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I hate to say it, but the idea is solid, but the structural cards to make this work aren't there at all right now.
Let me illustrate the ramp decks of old; last years good old Primeval Titan Wolf Run Ramp;
-You had 8x T2 ramp spells that pulled land straight out of the deck; Rampant Growth + Farseek, before M13 it was still a great deck and relied on Sphere of the Suns as a 4x of staple. That guarantees not only consistent ramp, but early ramp, along with deck thinning - a subtle but very important point, mana dorks do not thin the deck for you, and you're more succeptible to bad topdecks. Ramp decks before Primeval Titan had to rely very heavily upon Harmonize - raw draw power helped the deck get to it's bombs when it had too much mana and not enough action, or not enough lands and too much heavy stuff, or got it the ramp it needed to cast it's heavy stuff, whatever, etc. If you were in any of these scenarios, too much land, too many bombs not enough lands, or just hadn't found the bombs yet - you just drew cards. Garruk, Primal Hunter does a good Harmonize impression, but he won't work if you're too far behind, and the format is extremely fast and unforgiving right now to just take a turn off and draw or ramp. Whatever it is you ramp into needs to kill everything dead or just invalidate whatever they have on the board.
-You had Solemn Simulacrum - I miss this guy so much right now, and seriously think that it's a crime that there's such a lack of good "early value dudes" in standard right now. Even something in the vein of Coiling Oracle - there's Elvish Visionary and Gatecreeper Vine, but as raw comparisons you can see how they're much weaker. Then you begin to see that the key pieces aren't there currently.
-You had 4x Green Sun's Zenith - If you don't have your ramp target currently in hand, there's 4 cards in the deck guaranteed to get it straight into play when you have the mana for it.
I'm not trying to shoot your idea down at all, I'm merely showing the parallels of why it worked smoothly then, and how we don't have much of a similar structure at all to work with right now. If we want to "ramp* we've got to rely on mana-dudes. We've got to have some card draw to get through the bad topdecks/too many mana dudes in hand/too much ramp and no action draws. A tutor effect like Green Sun's Zenith just completely fixes that problem so cleanly (plus gives some toolboxing plays to the deck).
And then it's a question of, what are we ramping to, and why? Angel of Serenity is great..most of the time. She's a very powerful (generally) reactive card, rarely proactive, and therefore something you rarely want to slam down on T4. Against nutdrawing aggro, sure, yeah. She's the perfect thing to stabilize you, but you're taking a craps shoot hoping you ramp perfectly, and actually have her in hand/get to her in a few draws if you don't, but you obviously added a bunch of sweepers for that. Or you have to play a ton of sweepers or have the right answers until you can get there in the meantime.
In a nutshell, cracking a deck like this, again the idea is sound, the numbers are probably off, but if you're willing to put in the work (I am!) the goal should ideally be to trim as many situational/bad cards and fill in the gaps with as many reactive answers/roadblocks as possible...I believe you'd end up with Bant Control then. =P There's definitely merit to the completely proactive ramping approach, but with what limited tools we have in this format, I don't see how it can be done anywhere near the level it was done in last year's standard. TLDR: Last year's ramp deck was "ramp-combo" or "ramp-aggro" in a sense, where Bant Control is just enough ramp but completely on the control spectrum, it doesn't try to/and can't just ramp and kill people until it has complete control of the game. Primetime and friends (by friend we mean the hated Inkmoth Nexus) had the ability to just ignore whatever the opponent was doing and go through them, if you ramped and weren't dead by then, you'd just win.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
No worries, just after a good amount of playtesting, cutting prime speaker has done me better. Maybe it is not the same for everyone else. But for me, I feel like I made the right choice! And the deck has been putting up great results for me.(I have gone X-0 at two FNMs, one X-0 at gameday, one X-1 at FNM and two X-1s at a Monday night event my shop has.) My shop is pretty competitive too.
While I agree with most of what you say, I do believe that the cards that we do have available to us are very powerful. We have the great cards to ramp into that can attack from multiple angles. Aetherling backed with a large ammount of mana cannot be reckoned with. It is our 'inkmoth' win from the wolf run days.
We don't need to rely on harmonize effects since we have access to the 'go big' end game of Sphinx's Revelation.
What I do think I need to hammer down is the early interaction. We need to not just die to blitz strategies. Supreme verdict is a good tool, and I believe cyclonic rift is excellent as well.
I played this tonight at FNM and went 3-0-1 beating r/g aggro, boros, b/u/g control, drawing with u/w/r in the finals. I don't think I like the sideboard.
3 hallowed fountain
4 hinterland harbor
3 breeding pool
3 sunpetal grove
2 glacial fortress
2 stomping ground
2 kessig wolf run
2 cavern of souls
2 prime speaker zegana
2 angel of serenity
1 progenitor mimic
3 restoration angel
3 centaur healer
2 rhox faithmender
4 loxodon smiter
3 avacyn's pilgrim
2 garruk relentless
2 selesnya charm
2 jace, memory adept
4 farseek
SB
2 acidic slime
1 progenitor mimic
2 dispel
1 supreme verdict
1 sigarda, host of herons
1 garruk primal, hunter
2 advent of the wurm
1 selesnya charm
2 ray of revelation
2 rest in peace
a couple of notes the Main deck is stacked against aggro and midrange game one, with some help against control coming out of the side. the first thing that I've learned is that progenitor mimic is 9/10 times going to turn the game decidedly in your favor, I've used it to copy angel of serenity, blood baron of vizkopa, thragtusk, reckoner, rhox faithmender and any value creature honestly. He's a powerhouse and if left unchecked will win you the game. the fact that it's restoration angel target is also a huge bonus. I came in second place last FNM with this build only losing one game before the finals to Naya midrange, and then losing to jund in the finals which was mostly due to me being a bad player and not trusting my instincts on what was admittedly a bad hand. I think this deck is very resilient and has the tools to come back from very poor starts or against an overwhelming opposing board position by landing a mimic or an AoS or Zegana. That being said it plays our more like a control deck, that is admittedly very weak against verdicts and terminus. However, the format doesn't have many UWR control builds atm so you don't often find a bad matchup.
Got a link to that BBD list? I'd like to take a looksee at it.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/tournament-report-bant-control-1stdead-last/
Here is my current list:
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Temple Garden
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Hinterland Harbor
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
4 Thragtusk
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Angel of Sernity
4 Restoration Angel
2 Prime Speaker Zegana
3 Selesnya Charm
3 Azorius Charm
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Detention Sphere
2 Syncopate
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Terminus
2 Rest in Peace
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Centaur Healer
2 Dissipate
1 Negate
2 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Anyone else playing the more midrange/control version of this deck?
Further to this, someone suggested trackers instinct. Ive cut the cackling and garruks mb for 4 trackers instincts and haven't looked back. It thins your deck (an issue discussed above) and helps you find threats late to mid game. Ive had opponents side in gy hate games 2/3 just to deal with this, slowing thier plays down by a turn which is nice :).
My sideboard isnt optimum (no $60 stags unfortunatly) but so far ive gone 6-2 (3-1 both times) at the local fnm with this deck beating most of the major archetypes, except aristocrats.