Happy freaking horray @ spoiler season finally being done and we can get to discussing new tech! Hopefully we can re-ignite the discussion on here with new lists and ideas - I'm still torn on midrange with mana dorks vs control/midrange hybrid with sweeps, personally.
What's everyone's take on Progenitor Mimic? I've been fairly impressed with Acidic Slime / Clone as 1-2 of's in midrange vs midrange battles, and can only imagine ridiculous value from Mimic on a Thragtusk / Slime / enemy Angel of Serenity.
Also, trying to create a workable shell for Plasm Capture, although that's obviously a UG heavy leaning deck with W being a splash, and in all honesty I don't know where to start on it. Where are you folks at currently in spoiler/brewing land?
I plan on testing 2 Mimic mainboard, 3 Advent of the Wurm mainboard, and 2 Aetherling sideboard.
Mimicing a Thrag seems bonkers. Advent of the Wurm curves into Zegana or Primal Hunter as well as being an instant so countermagic can be held or bluffed. Aethering just seems like a solid sideboard option versus Esper Control, which was a hard matchup for me when I played this deck during GTC.
Those, are some absolutely odd lists, if by my own standards anyway, wow. The first one looks like a hybrid of old Solar Flare (wraths and Rites/some digging) with Bant midrange. The second looks like an almost "bant control" list that decided to get brave and start running creatures besides Thragtusk! Well, props to them, they made some legitimate wins in dailies, I can't say it's bad, just that I'd prefer a more focused list.
For those interested, here's some of the highlights:
I kept the mainboard card for card, and was impressed at how consistent the mana was. 6 Mana guys felt like exactly enough, as opposed to the builds with 4x Arbor Elf and 4x basic Forest. 25 lands also just helped tremendously for those games where you don't have early acceleration.
If I recall correctly, I mulligan'd maybe one game of the night, and that was the first game where I was still not quite shuffled enough/was fiddling with the mainboard and had everything clumped still.
Sleep - this card is encouraging me to try taking the deck in a more aggressive direction, with disrupting the enemy's tempo at pivotal moments. Yet it would still be midrange, so not Geist of Saint Traft bant.deck. I 2-0'd my last Naya Blitz opponent almost single handedly thanks to seeing my 1-of Sleep both games; it felt borderline gimmicky, and absolutely filthy.
My sideboard was drastically different from Mayorals, and not quite focused as I'd like, but thrown together sort of since I did not have the 2x Jace, Memory Adepts;
My first two rounds, I regret to say were free wins/high schoolers playing jank, and I really don't feel good about it. It's unfortunate, my shop has some of the most competitive players locally, but it's also grown into a *huge* shop that is appealing to the casuals as well.
My 3rd-5th rounds were intense -
3rd round saw me paired against a Humanimator-combo deck. He went first in G1, and dug straight into a T4 Angel of Glory's Rise + Kessig Malcontents - followed by untapping and Fiend Hunter chaining the Malcontents. I totally understand, sometimes you just gotta T4 Angel somebody. That aside, he was fairly new and told me he was returning to the format after a long break, and he made very slow plays. I unboarded Garruk Relentless, Angel of Serenity x2 (surprisingly, I wanted more early ways to disrupt him), and Sleep for the 3x Memory's Journey + Detention Sphere. Now, I don't know what exactly the correct sideboarding is against Humanimator, but I also have to say I noticed he hit basic lands in every one of our games (which he later told me were 1/2 ofs) so I also brought in Acidic Slime hoping to mana-screw him. Long story short, G3 went to turns, with me on T5 being 2-3 damage short of finishing him. The absolute best thing I did was Memory's Journey over Rest in Peace - going "Rites on the Stack, Memory's Journey" was the game changer for G2 and G3.
4th round was another long and painful slow player, and a Prime Speaker Bant mirror. All of the 3 games were just grindy Thragtusk wars - but we went to time and I was able to win it on the third. I think the most impactful cards that played in my favor were Acidic Slime and Clone, as well as Alchemist's Refuge at the very end. My Slime ate his sideboarded in Assemble the Legion - complete luck on my part, and at the very end, we were trying to play around each other, him with an active Kessig Wolf Run + very huge lethal Restoration Angel. I had two outs to him thanks to Clone and Sigarda, Host of Herons in hand in tandem with Refuge, flashed in Sigarda won the day. This is probably a very rushed and not thorough explanation of the board state, but the main point is Alchemist's Refuge can single handedly swing the late game midrange wars, especially if you have the clutch countermagic in hand.
My 5th round was against Naya Blitz, and it went perfect for me, and awful for him. 2-0 thanks to Sleep showing up both games, as well as double Thragtusk on the play. G2 went fairly long - I boarded entirely defensively and took no chances, 8 things came out and went in:
out -2x Angel of Serenity, -x3 Garruk, Primal Hunter , -2x Syncopate, -1x Clone for +2x Detention Sphere, +4x Rhox Faithmender, and +2x Acidic Slime.
MVP - Acidic Slime. I've been genuinely wanting to assess why so many people are claiming Acidic Slime is bonkers these days, and said why not and brought it in. Nuked one of his lands on T3, and then traded with a Frontline Medic. I remain convinced now that Slime is a very strong anti-aggro card, despite being a 5 drop and seeming like an odd choice (it doesn't gain life or isn't a sweeper).
Ended up getting 2nd place, thanks to the 3rd round being a draw, oh well. The most important part is that every FNM I'm attempting to or feel like I'm finding new key cards and powerful strategies to add to our compendium.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
So is everyone excited about plasm capture? leave 4 up on turn 3 or 4 (farseeked?) Counter a spell with CMC 2-4 and play a fatty next turn?
Sounds sweet!
The variant I have been testing. Plasm Captue really shine in this style of deck and at the very least let's you double drop or Gavony+Drop that turn for anything. I have used it to fuse Beck//Call or Angel with something else.
The variant I have been testing. Plasm Captue really shine in this style of deck and at the very least let's you double drop or Gavony+Drop that turn for anything. I have used it to fuse Beck//Call or Angel with something else.
Hey, thanks for hopping in and sharing!
I like it, just a few things I'm skeptical of; no basic Forest(s) for 6 mana guys. It feels like a really necessary evil, even the Naya decks who only run 4 mana guys/4 Farseek/(2 Arbor Elf or no Arbor Elf) still generally want 2 basic Forest to guarantee at least 10 turn one green sources. Even then, they view Avacyn's Pilgrim as a T2 ramp play off of a T1 checkland, generally.
Which is really unfortunate, because as we're all seeing, Plasm Capture is fairly amazing - and we need the manabase absolutely as strong as possible if we hope to utilize it. It's also unfortunate, but Avacyn's Pilgrim obviously doesn't help us there, which is fine, you're running Plasm simply as a 2-of. I do think it has build-around potential though, it just needs the right framework.
How has Beck // Call been working for you? Any specifics or context in how you use it is what I'm looking for, sorry to be nitpicky - I haven't played the card at all yet, and haven't envisioned any ideal uses of it or what not.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I wasn't sure if I wanted UW duals or Forests so I might switch back. Plasm Capture is amazing, it's a card that this style of deck really wants because even though it's a counterspell, it's an offensive card. Beck//Call is quite effective as either a late-game finisher, mini-draw engine if you just have mana guys drawn and now Township, or a total bomb post Plasm Capture.
There are little plays with it too, like having Smiter+Pilgrim and just needing to dig for minimal cost with a chance to chain a couple mana dorks into cards.
I'm still tinkering with the mana base, but I've been fairly happy with the spell base, Beck//Call is kind of a flex slot but has been devastating in enough games that it warrants a lot of testing.
Well, here we are in DGM brewing-land, let's get to work and kick this off strong, shall we? I first have to mention (most of you already know or are playing it) that lately the Prime Speaker Bant decks that are putting up results lately are the more control-midrange hybrids (16 creatures or so, no mana dorks), and I think it's worth discussing both of them in here. Even if the thread started out as the super mana-dork "big aggro/ramp" version, the deck has been adapting, and I for one encourage any and all discussion both ways.
I would also like to share one of my own possible new starting points on Bant Midrange (bottom of the post) the problem or rather, the challenge is figuring out how to achieve a well balanced/polished list in the end and what directions there are to go in. For example, I tend to test things in a hyper-Simic focused direction, generally I'll throw something in as a 4-of, and I'll realize right quick, okay, this is garbage, or wow, this is actually pulling it's weight. The fine adjustments and tuning take way longer with this kind of approach, but it does help me identify strong 4-of's that want to be played together, given the strategy, or identify what supports what/plays best with each other.
The other biggest reason I like going to the extremes right away, and then gradually peeling back, is that you find the limits you can push your decks' greed/overall power level. What mix of stuff are we playing, and how high of a curve can we *consistently* get away with?
Also, addressing Plasm Capture - we're probably going to have to have a splintered thread conversation just trying to crack this one alone. There's a ton of ways to go about it, but I'm leaning towards a version not playing Avacyn's Pilgrim. It definitely "feels" like an offensive card, and this is where I stress the importance of finding the deck's sweet spot/limits and how greedy it can run.
Here's where I'm at now, I'd like to explain my process too and where I'm starting from. (thanks for bearing with me) :> Rambling inc; I'll put this in spoilers and the decklist is at the bottom if you want to just skip.
I initially began tinkering with an aggressive Naya list last night with DGM proxies, and it was modelled largely after a Dark Naya shell. Anyway, what drew me to it, was the fact that this Dark Naya shell got away very cleanly with running a full 12x 4 drops - 4x Huntmaster of the Fells + 4x Restoration Angel + 4x Falkenrath Aristocrat. The top of the curve wasn't that heavy, and it was almost all creatures, with the base being 24 lands, 6 mana guys, 4 Farseek. The important part here is that I simply changed the Falkenrath Aristocrats into a full 4x Advent of the Wurm, and it worked spectacularly. The Huntmasters now had 8 flash creatures in the deck to flip off of, and it still boasted the strength of racing other creature decks that Aristocrat would give, but while being streamlined Naya.
Fast forward to where we are here, I see so much discussion about Restoration Angel vs Advent, and how Resto is still the "better" 4 drop. Why not play both? Hell, what if we could do Plasm Capture + Resto + Advent? The other thing I should mention that I changed in the Naya list - I cut the Loxodon Smiters for Voice of Resurgence x4. It was spectacular, really, I'm not knocking on the Smiter, I know he has high power to draw off of with Garruk/Zegana and all that, and that he's the "best" T2 blocker against aggro, but again, curve considerations led me to here. I can't help but feel in the longer games, Loxodon Smiter is obviously beefy, but that he has virtually no upside. (Pat Chapin said quite awhile ago that he thinks the correct thing for midrange vs midrange decks to do is to board out their smiters) Voice's token continues to grow, and overall feels more synergistic with the rest of the deck, to me anyway, as well as completely hosing other control decks, and will be a fine T2 play against aggro if you failed to find acceleration - a T3 Smiter is not likely going to save you against hyper-aggro in that same situation. It's also going to leave you behind something after a wrath, like Thragtusk - so we have a 2 drop that seems very well positioned against all three archetypes to me.
Ditching the Smiter in favor of Voice may be a move in the right direction, or not, but I feel the deck runs very clean even with 4 12 drops - which is where we actually want to be. Yeah, I said it, I've felt all this time Smiter has been in there because everyone else packs Smiter, and the 3 drop spot was vacant. Screw it, let's get to doing more powerful things, Voice can hold the ground early on the curve, and we can play significantly stronger cards than Smiter because 4 is the "sweet spot".
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Well, here we are in DGM brewing-land, let's get to work and kick this off strong, shall we? I first have to mention (most of you already know or are playing it) that lately the Prime Speaker Bant decks that are putting up results lately are the more control-midrange hybrids (16 creatures or so, no mana dorks), and I think it's worth discussing both of them in here. Even if the thread started out as the super mana-dork "big aggro/ramp" version, the deck has been adapting, and I for one encourage any and all discussion both ways.
I would also like to share one of my own possible new starting points on Bant Midrange (bottom of the post) the problem or rather, the challenge is figuring out how to achieve a well balanced/polished list in the end and what directions there are to go in. For example, I tend to test things in a hyper-Simic focused direction, generally I'll throw something in as a 4-of, and I'll realize right quick, okay, this is garbage, or wow, this is actually pulling it's weight. The fine adjustments and tuning take way longer with this kind of approach, but it does help me identify strong 4-of's that want to be played together, given the strategy, or identify what supports what/plays best with each other.
The other biggest reason I like going to the extremes right away, and then gradually peeling back, is that you find the limits you can push your decks' greed/overall power level. What mix of stuff are we playing, and how high of a curve can we *consistently* get away with?
Also, addressing Plasm Capture - we're probably going to have to have a splintered thread conversation just trying to crack this one alone. There's a ton of ways to go about it, but I'm leaning towards a version not playing Avacyn's Pilgrim. It definitely "feels" like an offensive card, and this is where I stress the importance of finding the deck's sweet spot/limits and how greedy it can run.
Here's where I'm at now, I'd like to explain my process too and where I'm starting from. (thanks for bearing with me) :> Rambling inc; I'll put this in spoilers and the decklist is at the bottom if you want to just skip.
I initially began tinkering with an aggressive Naya list last night with DGM proxies, and it was modelled largely after a Dark Naya shell. Anyway, what drew me to it, was the fact that this Dark Naya shell got away very cleanly with running a full 12x 4 drops - 4x Huntmaster of the Fells + 4x Restoration Angel + 4x Falkenrath Aristocrat. The top of the curve wasn't that heavy, and it was almost all creatures, with the base being 24 lands, 6 mana guys, 4 Farseek. The important part here is that I simply changed the Falkenrath Aristocrats into a full 4x Advent of the Wurm, and it worked spectacularly. The Huntmasters now had 8 flash creatures in the deck to flip off of, and it still boasted the strength of racing other creature decks that Aristocrat would give, but while being streamlined Naya.
Fast forward to where we are here, I see so much discussion about Restoration Angel vs Advent, and how Resto is still the "better" 4 drop. Why not play both? Hell, what if we could do Plasm Capture + Resto + Advent? The other thing I should mention that I changed in the Naya list - I cut the Loxodon Smiters for Voice of Resurgence x4. It was spectacular, really, I'm not knocking on the Smiter, I know he has high power to draw off of with Garruk/Zegana and all that, and that he's the "best" T2 blocker against aggro, but again, curve considerations led me to here. I can't help but feel in the longer games, Loxodon Smiter is obviously beefy, but that he has virtually no upside. (Pat Chapin said quite awhile ago that he thinks the correct thing for midrange vs midrange decks to do is to board out their smiters) Voice's token continues to grow, and overall feels more synergistic with the rest of the deck, to me anyway, as well as completely hosing other control decks, and will be a fine T2 play against aggro if you failed to find acceleration - a T3 Smiter is not likely going to save you against hyper-aggro in that same situation. It's also going to leave you behind something after a wrath, like Thragtusk - so we have a 2 drop that seems very well positioned against all three archetypes to me.
Ditching the Smiter in favor of Voice may be a move in the right direction, or not, but I feel the deck runs very clean even with 4 12 drops - which is where we actually want to be. Yeah, I said it, I've felt all this time Smiter has been in there because everyone else packs Smiter, and the 3 drop spot was vacant. Screw it, let's get to doing more powerful things, Voice can hold the ground early on the curve, and we can play significantly stronger cards than Smiter because 4 is the "sweet spot".
Cassial your list looks really good and i like your style of working down from 4x's. I'm not sure I agree with the 4x voices over 4x loxo but i see the positives if a master biomancer sticks around. id say if your meta is midrange/control> aggro then its a good move, otherwise I'd rather loxo.
I don't feel like we need Angel of Serenity, but Progenitor Mimic is an amazing counter to it that plays into our themes.
I'm playing 2 mimics sideboard and 2 AoS mb. If I'm playing a midrange or control its a straight swap game 2. Both are good cards but mimic does nothing against aggro unfortunately.
My current plan is bant ramp g1, assess my opponent then transform the deck into either a midrange w/ some counters, bant control by dropping dorks and master biomancers or stick to ramp for g2. We have so much power in this deck and so many options to use it.
Why is no one playing Gyre Sage? That card is amazing in a Gxx ramp deck. If you are playing Biomancer, it's an auto 4 of. Pre and Post Biomancer is such a beating ramp wise. T2 Gyr Sage, T3 Centaul Healer/Smiter, now you have 5 mana on T4 if you Tusk it up, then you have 7 mana T5. He also makes casting cards like Garruk PH and Craterhoof easy. I always run 1 of Hoof when I play Gxx ramp. Too good not to!
here is the list. There was just one moment when sire of insanity was in play for some turns and then AoS was top decked then next turn the mimic was played. After Sire no one had removal so......
If sire of insanity gets popular it'll make decks with powerful top decks good.....
it was sexy
here is the list. There was just one moment when sire of insanity was in play for some turns and then AoS was top decked then next turn the mimic was played. After Sire no one had removal so......
If sire of insanity gets popular it'll make decks with powerful top decks good.....
it was sexy
Yo Red! This was exactly what I needed to read to get back to work in anticipation for states again. I haven't watched the full video yet, but I skimmed it. I'm not gonna lie, I don't care much for their list, but it is a starting point.
That being said, I'd probably need to watch the video and hear the deck tech, such as, why no mana-dorks, and what the sideboarding plan is (if any). If anyone else has a good starting point they've gotten any testing in at all with (a Progenitor Bant shell) please by all means lets see it-
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Yo Red! This was exactly what I needed to read to get back to work in anticipation for states again. I haven't watched the full video yet, but I skimmed it. I'm not gonna lie, I don't care much for their list, but it is a starting point.
That being said, I'd probably need to watch the video and hear the deck tech, such as, why no mana-dorks, and what the sideboarding plan is (if any). If anyone else has a good starting point they've gotten any testing in at all with (a Progenitor Bant shell) please by all means lets see it-
Re mb, all the recent PSB have moved towards a control element, opposed to its ramp origins. This explans the no dorks i suppose.
Edit: Regarding our "jumping off point" for construction,your brew (Cassial) was quite nice and I like the theory behind it. My idea is to base my deck off 3 early PSB decks which had the ramp package.
Hey everyone - I gotta keep it brief, I know it's been awhile, but I finally feel like I have good news and it's worth it. I lied on the brief thing, this is going to be long winded as hell, but seriously, thank you everyone who's still here for your support. :> New decklist is at the bottom if you want to skip.
-DGM Meta analysis:
The first thing I have to report on my own end, I'm trying to refine the strongest "proactive rampy midrange" brew I can, the mana dork version - as I feel the control hybrid simply suffers from the fact that right now in standard it's almost always better to just be proactive. That's just my opinion for the two divergent strategies here, that and I'm not as familiar/good with the controlly bant builds. It's also surprised me a lot in testing that almost everything I've tried in DGM so far, whether building around or slightly adding in - the whole host of cards that looked attractive for our colors; Advent of the Wurm, Voice of Resurgence, Plasm Capture (cute), pretty much none of it is changing my stock list. Also, if Starcitygames is to be believed (I do put a fair bit of stock in them now) the field is roughly 30% Junk Rites *and* 30% Jund Midrange - I'm building from the mindset of prepare for a midrange arms race. Pack all the powerful cards you can, and put yourself in a position to come ahead in the long games and topdecks. Aggro can be dealt with through a lot of sideboard slots, since control is massively on the decline right now.
-What's changing (cards) for this strategy from DGM then?:
The one thing that's pushing it over the top for me, is Progenitor Mimic, and unbelievably so. I'm running a split of 3x Angel of Serenity, 1x Mimic, and 2x Prime Speaker Zegana as my "ramp targets/bombs" - I'm not sure this is correct, but I'm toying with the idea of trying 2-2-2's. Quite simply, cards like Advent of the Wurm push the deck in a more aggressive beatdown midrange direction - Thragtusk/Restoration Angel into Angel of Serenityis a Trump other creatures strategy, not a maximium damage/beatdown strategy - (there's naya for that)and the Mimic fits right in there as another trump that can single handedly turn around a losing board state.
-Card opinions that didn't make the cut:
Voice of Resurgence - I've been a strong proponent of Selesnya Midrange since RTR released, and like everyone has observed, they got absolutely hooked up with the good cards. It *can* fit in this deck, but it's competing against Loxodon Smiter. There's plenty of merit in one or the other there, but with control on the decline, I don't see Voice as powerful for us (the whole forcing them to play around us part). The real long story short version, I'm an avid believer in a *dedicated* Selesnya deck - and the Voice of Resurgence is simply exponentially more powerful in a deck completely built around it - the Rootborn Defenses which become mainboard worthy will sometimes just give you an extra Elemental, etc. Add in Scion of Vitu-Ghazi, and all these little synergies you add in simply makes any and all of the cards in your deck stronger together - it's not for our Bant deck I don't believe, in short. Advent of the Wurm - Same exact logic for Voice. It's not bad by any means in here though, and is a very strong stand-alone respectable card. I don't like the fact that it doesn't swing into enemy Thragtusk(s) when you need to be the beatdown. The Wurm is a 10 out of 10 play against aggro though, for sure, but it's a midrange card that doesn't stack up well against *winning the long term game* against other midrange. Loses a few points for being a token, and not being recurrable with Angel of Serenity, too.
[CARD]
Plasm Capture[/CARD] - Love the card, but in short, it's cute. Absolutely not needed for our more proactive lists - this is another card that should be carefully built around, and I'm not sure what the ideal shell for it is. Quite frankly, that and I don't have the time to figure out it. In truth, I've moved away from countermagic entirely, only in the sideboard, and only narrow countermagic (like Negate) for the narrow off-chance matchup where it might be relevant. That, and the fact that mana-dorks simply don't play well with Plasm - it's meant for a controllier list probably playing sweeps and without mana-dudes.
-Results so far and where I'm at:
I have a clear and concise proactive strategy to taking down Junk Reanimator - 10 games last night playtesting (game ones) we're 8-2. The gameplan is simple, I don't even bother with reactive graveyard hate anymore (in regards to boarded games, you simply bring in more clones) - you simply ignore them, and focus on drawing as many cards as you can, and setting up board states so that you can. Eventually when the Angels are forced, you have your Selesnya Charm and/or Clone - which has now been MASSIVELY UPGRADED to Progenitor Mimic. I was trying this strategy for the past month, and it's actually been wildly successful - ignoring the grave hate, and simply focusing on outdrawing them. Now we have a silver bullet to absolutely trump them and immediately close out games, that punishes their strategy for their lack of spot removal/interaction. Again, that is the Mimic, my friends. I feel absolutely confident that Junk Rites is very beatable now, since they aren't going for a surgical trump like Mimic, they're just relying on Angel and ETB creatures and their deck's natural robustness. We essentially have a stronger U/G version of Olivia Voldaren against Reanimator now.
Jund:
This is a different animal, and I haven't tested the matchup enough yet, but from past experience, Jund doesn't seem that problematic as a deck to beat.
Bant Auras:
This one scares the hell out of me, and I need to get busy gauntlet testing against it. How many sideboard slots are necessary to allocate against them, and what are the most high impact cards? I'm willing to hazard a guess that Bant Auras is going to be the hardest aggro deck to beat - we simply don't interact well with them and lack removal in these colors. Even if we did have removal for them, hexproof is a problem, so the strategy has to be good old brickwall and lifegain on them. The chances of winning are exponentially less if they get an unblockable dude. It is possible to Smiter brickwall an early Geist of Saint Traft just fine, but it never stays that way for long. This deck also suffers from consistency issues, but the good news is I think we have plenty of sideboard space to devote for them; I'm starting with 2x Ray of Revelation, 2x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice, and perhaps 2x Unflinching Courage. It's also worth noting that some new breeds of Bant Auras are mainboarding 4x Voice of Resurgence over Fencing Ace - which leads me to lean on the side of strong lifegain and blocks rather than relying on instant speed tricks/fogs to disrupt them.
Thanks again to everyone who's kept up. I'm off to try this at FNM, and we'll see how it fares at the SCG open in Charlotte NC tomorrow. Any and all feedback is sorely appreciated, especially in time for States next week. Let's do this peoples!
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I was playing final round against UWR this weekend. We hit turn 5, he tapped out and passed. I went Progenitor Mimic copy Thragtusk, then swing 5. I have never seen a control player make such an obvious desperation play. He untapped, dropped a land, cycled Azorious Charm, dropped Augur, all to get to the Searing Spear for that Mimic. Copying most any target in this deck and untapping is probably gg. He's that good.
Hey everyone - I gotta keep it brief, I know it's been awhile, but I finally feel like I have good news and it's worth it. I lied on the brief thing, this is going to be long winded as hell, but seriously, thank you everyone who's still here for your support. :> New decklist is at the bottom if you want to skip.
-DGM Meta analysis:
The first thing I have to report on my own end, I'm trying to refine the strongest "proactive rampy midrange" brew I can, the mana dork version - as I feel the control hybrid simply suffers from the fact that right now in standard it's almost always better to just be proactive. That's just my opinion for the two divergent strategies here, that and I'm not as familiar/good with the controlly bant builds. It's also surprised me a lot in testing that almost everything I've tried in DGM so far, whether building around or slightly adding in - the whole host of cards that looked attractive for our colors; Advent of the Wurm, Voice of Resurgence, Plasm Capture (cute), pretty much none of it is changing my stock list. Also, if Starcitygames is to be believed (I do put a fair bit of stock in them now) the field is roughly 30% Junk Rites *and* 30% Jund Midrange - I'm building from the mindset of prepare for a midrange arms race. Pack all the powerful cards you can, and put yourself in a position to come ahead in the long games and topdecks. Aggro can be dealt with through a lot of sideboard slots, since control is massively on the decline right now.
-What's changing (cards) for this strategy from DGM then?:
The one thing that's pushing it over the top for me, is Progenitor Mimic, and unbelievably so. I'm running a split of 3x Angel of Serenity, 1x Mimic, and 2x Prime Speaker Zegana as my "ramp targets/bombs" - I'm not sure this is correct, but I'm toying with the idea of trying 2-2-2's. Quite simply, cards like Advent of the Wurm push the deck in a more aggressive beatdown midrange direction - Thragtusk/Restoration Angel into Angel of Serenityis a Trump other creatures strategy, not a maximium damage/beatdown strategy - (there's naya for that)and the Mimic fits right in there as another trump that can single handedly turn around a losing board state.
-Card opinions that didn't make the cut:
Voice of Resurgence - I've been a strong proponent of Selesnya Midrange since RTR released, and like everyone has observed, they got absolutely hooked up with the good cards. It *can* fit in this deck, but it's competing against Loxodon Smiter. There's plenty of merit in one or the other there, but with control on the decline, I don't see Voice as powerful for us (the whole forcing them to play around us part). The real long story short version, I'm an avid believer in a *dedicated* Selesnya deck - and the Voice of Resurgence is simply exponentially more powerful in a deck completely built around it - the Rootborn Defenses which become mainboard worthy will sometimes just give you an extra Elemental, etc. Add in Scion of Vitu-Ghazi, and all these little synergies you add in simply makes any and all of the cards in your deck stronger together - it's not for our Bant deck I don't believe, in short. Advent of the Wurm - Same exact logic for Voice. It's not bad by any means in here though, and is a very strong stand-alone respectable card. I don't like the fact that it doesn't swing into enemy Thragtusk(s) when you need to be the beatdown. The Wurm is a 10 out of 10 play against aggro though, for sure, but it's a midrange card that doesn't stack up well against *winning the long term game* against other midrange. Loses a few points for being a token, and not being recurrable with Angel of Serenity, too.
[CARD]
Plasm Capture[/CARD] - Love the card, but in short, it's cute. Absolutely not needed for our more proactive lists - this is another card that should be carefully built around, and I'm not sure what the ideal shell for it is. Quite frankly, that and I don't have the time to figure out it. In truth, I've moved away from countermagic entirely, only in the sideboard, and only narrow countermagic (like Negate) for the narrow off-chance matchup where it might be relevant. That, and the fact that mana-dorks simply don't play well with Plasm - it's meant for a controllier list probably playing sweeps and without mana-dudes.
-Results so far and where I'm at:
I have a clear and concise proactive strategy to taking down Junk Reanimator - 10 games last night playtesting (game ones) we're 8-2. The gameplan is simple, I don't even bother with reactive graveyard hate anymore (in regards to boarded games, you simply bring in more clones) - you simply ignore them, and focus on drawing as many cards as you can, and setting up board states so that you can. Eventually when the Angels are forced, you have your Selesnya Charm and/or Clone - which has now been MASSIVELY UPGRADED to Progenitor Mimic. I was trying this strategy for the past month, and it's actually been wildly successful - ignoring the grave hate, and simply focusing on outdrawing them. Now we have a silver bullet to absolutely trump them and immediately close out games, that punishes their strategy for their lack of spot removal/interaction. Again, that is the Mimic, my friends. I feel absolutely confident that Junk Rites is very beatable now, since they aren't going for a surgical trump like Mimic, they're just relying on Angel and ETB creatures and their deck's natural robustness. We essentially have a stronger U/G version of Olivia Voldaren against Reanimator now.
Jund:
This is a different animal, and I haven't tested the matchup enough yet, but from past experience, Jund doesn't seem that problematic as a deck to beat.
Bant Auras:
This one scares the hell out of me, and I need to get busy gauntlet testing against it. How many sideboard slots are necessary to allocate against them, and what are the most high impact cards? I'm willing to hazard a guess that Bant Auras is going to be the hardest aggro deck to beat - we simply don't interact well with them and lack removal in these colors. Even if we did have removal for them, hexproof is a problem, so the strategy has to be good old brickwall and lifegain on them. The chances of winning are exponentially less if they get an unblockable dude. It is possible to Smiter brickwall an early Geist of Saint Traft just fine, but it never stays that way for long. This deck also suffers from consistency issues, but the good news is I think we have plenty of sideboard space to devote for them; I'm starting with 2x Ray of Revelation, 2x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice, and perhaps 2x Unflinching Courage. It's also worth noting that some new breeds of Bant Auras are mainboarding 4x Voice of Resurgence over Fencing Ace - which leads me to lean on the side of strong lifegain and blocks rather than relying on instant speed tricks/fogs to disrupt them.
Thanks again to everyone who's kept up. I'm off to try this at FNM, and we'll see how it fares at the SCG open in Charlotte NC tomorrow. Any and all feedback is sorely appreciated, especially in time for States next week. Let's do this peoples!
Before anyone call's him crazy re: the reanimator stratergy, I 100% agree. I started this season as a 4c reanimator player then moved to junk when the meta sped up around gatecrash. Reanimator players care F'all about GY hate. Your not advancing your board, they can get rid of it instantly (abrupt decay) or play midrange and your ANOTHER turn slower now because you've wasted a turn playing RIP (or something) instead of farseek or a threat. I play Gy hate against Snapcaster decks primarily, not reanimator.
I again agree about Voice, Wurm and Plasm. great cards but not for this build. Your template looks good and works with my outlined shell (great minds think alike lol). I still want Master Biomancer to work (im playing 8 dorks just for him) but he's seeming like a win more card atm :/
Your sb is completely up in the air I suppose, however id urge you to have 3 acidic slimes in there. If your in the midrange grind or control matchup i assume you'll have 3 mimic mb and mimic+acidic slime is DIRTY!!!!! I would rather be casting acidic over thragtusk, seriously its that good.
Other then that we also have the option of transformational SB into Prime Spreaker Bant control. Side out your dorks for supreme verdicts and syncopate/ negate/ Dissipate (counter of choice).
Jund is going to be hard, I'm really interested in what you find out. If they drop a Sire of insanity I guess we just go into top deck "man mode"?
as some of you might know i've been running the control type prime speaker bant with some success. over the last month i've run it pretty much exclusively and consistently finished 3-1 at FNM's. this is the list i've been running...
now i've been having alot of fun playing it, but the games have to rush along as there isn't a whole lot of time to play them in the store which sucks a bit, so i'm thinking it's time to rethink the deck to try and speed it up slightly. one card in my list that i've been underwhelmed with was selsnya charm, just because the meta here is super aggro and most threats max at 4/4.
when i first saw Progenitor Mimic, i thought it would be a nice card in the more midrange type deck so obviously i want to try it out.
taking a lead from cassail's list (glad you're still brewing) this is my thinking of a midrange type ramp deck...
as you can see, it's not that much different because i don't want to break up a deck that has been working great. i just want to make it slightly quicker and i feel by upping the mana dorks it should do just that. the previous deck would struggle against Jund Planeswalker Midrange and Esper Control. Reanimator decks have dropped off totally around here, but there's quite a few mill decks popping up as well as Snapcaster Mage deck's hence why i still have Rest in Peace and Nevermore in the side.
other cards i'm considdering playtesting are:
master biomancer - to then make mana dorks into threats
conjurer's closet - for happy blinking times
pithing needle - for huntmaster of the fells etc.
what do you think? is it still too controlish? should i just go all out?
Well, I'm running almost the exact same list, and I've never wished I had a syncopate in game 1, or Supreme Verdict. I don't even board Verdict, it works against the speed of the deck.
Me, personally, I love Master Biomancer. I want to add another one to my deck. A 6/6 Smiter for 3? Yeah, I'll take that all day long. Also, if you stack your triggers correctly, Prime Speaker gets Biomancer counters, then her own, then draw +2 more cards, or more if you've been pumping with Township. Good times, my friend.
Also, Huntmaster of the Fells doesn't have an activated ability. Pithing Needle won't do anything to stop him. Still good to have in the side, just not for him.
Thanks again to everyone who's kept up. I'm off to try this at FNM, and we'll see how it fares at the SCG open in Charlotte NC tomorrow. Any and all feedback is sorely appreciated, especially in time for States next week. Let's do this peoples!
Back in here, glad to see the awesome replies over the weekend/will have to answer these one by one! As for the charlotte classic, I failed to get up early enough, thanks to a late long night at FNM and mulling with my teammates over a lot of matchups and possibilities for the next day. I really need to not do that this weekend for states, note to self.
So yeah, what was everyone's take from the charlotte results? I at least watched the coverage from home, I'm a little miffed to see not a single Prime Speaker anywhere all day there.
I also wanted to hit base on my last FNM - I took home another 1st place finish, against some of our best players. I should also mention that I completely BS lucksacked it, I could seriously write an essay on it. The reason I bring that up, the details aren't as relevant as what I'm trying to get across, but I can't shake the feeling my list is going through some serious consistency issues. I stayed up gauntlet testing all last night (and am at work without sleep now, woo hoo!) grinding games with my list vs my good friend's various R/G aggro builds, and get the absolute worst draws all night long and can't win a single game to save my life. It's a harsh reality I'm willing to face, but time is not on my side for states at the moment, and I might have to either play the control/midrange version, or another deck I'm comfortable with (Gruul Aggro/Midrange (green based)).
A couple of points - I know the above sounds like a pile of negative, I'm trying to glean as much possible useful information for us all to beating what seems too difficult at the moment. And hopefully we can share/innovate and figure this out.
My FNM report:
R1 - 2-0 U/W/R Tempo. My opponent immediately struck me as a laid back, but very serious high-calibur player - initial chit chat, this guy is traveling from Massachusetts to play in the Charlotte SCG the following Saturday, and decided he'd go the extra mile and play in a local FNM from out of state the night before. G1 was me getting a nice T2 Smiter up in his face, which met the usual Azorius Charm, and I assume I'm against a control version of UWR. Eventually as the game progressed, I never saw any countermagic from him, and after lots of burn spells and forcing 2 for 1's from him, I beat him to death with mana guys and Gavony, outracing his Thundermaw Hellkite at the end. What a weird matchup. The unnerving thing is, the same thing happened in G2 - he brought in the Verdicts this time, and I teetered on topdeck mode way too often with no threats or gas in hand to reload, but somehow just got there. Late in the game, I noticed he Thought Scour'd a Dispel, and after a resolved Zegana + his scoop soon after that, we discussed and I explained to him how he really doesn't want Dispel against our midrange-almost all creatures bant deck =P.
R2 - 2-1 Junk Rites! One of my friends I got paired with, he's good, and Acidic slimed my face something awful in G1 on the play. Most disheartening part is I could've easily gotten there with 4, if I just could've seen one more land..yeah you all know how that goes. G2 - I board out my 4x Loxodon Smiter, bring in 2x of my own Acidic Slime, 1x Sigarda, and a second Progenitor Mimic. I also decided to side out the one of Simic Charm for a one-of Beck // Call - I like the Simic Charm as Slime insurance, but I figured I'm on the play I'm going to Garruk R and Slime him first, I'd rather have a late game big spell. I was surprised, the game went late, and I worked my way rapidly up to 8 mana, with a Zegana in hand, but no high power creature to use her on, I saw the Beck, went for the fuse and pulled ahead. It's also worth mentioning, in both G2 and G3, I had to play caround my opponent's Sever the Bloodline - in other words he had it in his GY, (after hardcasting it and 2 for 1'ing my mana guys early) and has Angel of Serenity on field, but I can't tap out and play Mimic - he'll just sever it next turn. G3 ended up going to turns, and my opponent was dead in another two turns to me probably, but I couldn't quite close quick enough. He ended up saying let's see what our next draws would've been - he had nothing, and I had plenty of ammo, so he conceded it to me, sure was nice of him. MVP - Sigarda, Host of Herons, affectionately now nicknamed "5 you." Absolute house in the late grind, when Gavony is active and you're trying to race. I also did see Acidic Slime show up - but it was way late in the game and I never wanted to cast it / it was a completely dead draw, so I'm really questioning where they're worth it as a 2 of to bring in, or to have.
R3 - 2-0 Selesnya (Somewhat Tokens) Midrange. This absolutely sucked and seeded me into first - I got paired against my best buddy who comes with me every FNM for the first time in forever, with a prototype deck we'd just started working on for him. I turn 5 Angel of Serenity'd one game and proceeded to perfectly curve into another the second game, of course I get the effortless nutdraws when paired against my friend and our fledgling deck, he proceeded to drop and scrap it back to the drawing board after the beating. /sigh @ variance I guess
R4 - 2-1 RUG Midrange - Okay, back to real hard games, one of our best players, he's running a sweet RUG list with Huntmasters, some Turn // Burn, and RUG goodstuff, with Aetherling at the top. About that dumb luck thing I alluded to earlier, I don't know what it is, but against this player, I always see my Sigarda against him, even months ago when he was playing Humanimator, I'd T3 Sigarda on him into oblivion. G2 was insanely close, and I miscalculated a race situation - he managed to stabilize at one life with some clutch Snapcaster Mage plays + Huntmaster flips, and Aetherling backswings me for lethal next turn + hardcast bonfire for the last one point of damage on me. Also in G1 I noticed he had a Progenitor Mimic, which was thankfully taken care of by Angel of Serenity - so after careful consideration, I decided to board out my AoS's in G3 because of the liability against his mimic potential. Ultimately I don't recall my exact boarding, but the legendary hexproof 5 you Angel showed up against him early to swing a race for me.
R5 - 2-1 Aristocrats Act 2 - This is the matchup that has me hesitant to play our beloved deck at States this weekend. Another one of our great players/buddy of mine, blah blah blah, we agree to draw for the last round and are the only undefeateds, but we're playing it out for the extra packs. So I explained to him that I'm completely unfamiliar with Aristocrats and how this matchup plays for our deck, and we sort of talk out our lines of play as we go along. Quite simply, I lost horribly G1 to land screw, and have felt that all night, my 24 lands just sometimes isn't consistently curving right. I saw a fairly aggressive start from him G1 with Doomed Traveler, Lingering Souls, and Skirsdag High Priest - which in all honesty isn't really that aggressive. But here's the teachable moment; I boarded in my Trostani / Rhox Faithmender package for him, thinking the plan is to life-tank him/treat him like aggro. The weird thing about Aristocrats - post board their deck wants to become control against us, and WE have to be the beatdown. He simply had me dead on board multiple turns in a row to combo'ing off with Blasphemous Act if he ever drew it, I could never draw a D-Sphere or anything to interact with his Boros Reckoner/Blood Artists. Upon realizing this, I see Trostani/Rhox Faithmender show up late, and never again will they in this matchup, they'd have been liabilities and only slowed me down (I boarded out Serenity's for them, thinking I needed to lower my curve and play defensively) Once again, the legendary 5 You lady showed up to allow me to reasonably race and apply pressure. G2 showed me that Serenity is one of the only/few ways we actually have of interacting with their deck, if we can't spot remove the problem Reckoners, we have to race, it's really that simple. All while committing more to the board to get wrathed by Act, it's a very disconcerting time bomb in that my own deck can help defeat itself very easily by not drawing a hitter each turn in this race scenario. TLDR: Bad matchup seems very bad, I lucksacked it again, and swung for lethal on my opponent, but was dead to his backswing, I also was dead to him redirecting Boros Reckoner damage on my head (6/6 Zegana and I'm at 6 life) but the Reckoner's trigger would happen after the player had dropped to 0.
The other biggest takeaway, I kept feeling 24 lands and 3 Arbor Elf was wrong all night and just not getting there or barely barely getting there. Then I last night simply changed 1 Angel of Serenity for Sigarda, main, and cut one Elf for an additional Cavern of Souls, and turn a basic Forest into another color source - the deck completely folds to itself flooding or ramping into a Thrag and then doing nothing. Argh. Sorry for the ramble, I'm very seriously envious of Reanimator's consistency right now - in all of my hands on gauntlet testing my friends with Reanimator, I've yet to take a single mulligan, and just the flow of the deck is ridiculous in comparison. Either the grass is greener, but I just can't help but feel there's got to be a magic number curve for us, where 4x mana guys and 4x farseek is enough with 24-25 lands.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Just wanted to add that I tried advent in the wrath build when DGM dropped, played a bunch of matchs and decided to drop the verdicts and revelations for dorks, garruks and an extra angel of Serenity and Zegana. Basically switched to the midrange build and it has been doing well for me. Much faster and having township plus dorks is a huge plus.
However I think 3 AoS is to much. And am going to try a single Progenitor Mimic.
I see a lot of lists have dropped Clone altogether. Kinda wondering as to why since I have always had a good run with Clone. I did remove a Clone for a Progenitor Mimic, which is even more silly. Clone solves a lot of problems at times, like Olivias, Boros Reckoner, etc. Plus all the value you get off of our own creatures.
I kinda abandoned the controllish version awhile ago. This decks creatures are just better then almost every other deck in the format. And, even if some other creature is really good, once again, Clone enables us to mimic it and have it ourselves.
So, yeah, Clone. Don't leave the house without them.
I see a lot of lists have dropped Clone altogether. Kinda wondering as to why since I have always had a good run with Clone. I did remove a Clone for a Progenitor Mimic, which is even more silly. Clone solves a lot of problems at times, like Olivias, Boros Reckoner, etc. Plus all the value you get off of our own creatures.
I kinda abandoned the controllish version awhile ago. This decks creatures are just better then almost every other deck in the format. And, even if some other creature is really good, once again, Clone enables us to mimic it and have it ourselves.
So, yeah, Clone. Don't leave the house without them.
I do like clones in the creature heavy version. Could you share a list?
Hi all. I found this sweet deck tech with BBD. im going to try it this friday at fnm. It's more of an "all in clone" styled deck which seems fun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R7BPPvCSUc
The deck list is at the start of the video fyi
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I plan on testing 2 Mimic mainboard, 3 Advent of the Wurm mainboard, and 2 Aetherling sideboard.
Mimicing a Thrag seems bonkers. Advent of the Wurm curves into Zegana or Primal Hunter as well as being an instant so countermagic can be held or bluffed. Aethering just seems like a solid sideboard option versus Esper Control, which was a hard matchup for me when I played this deck during GTC.
Updated 11/01/13
-->Standard:
:symwg::symwg::symwg: Aggressive Midrange
:symu::symu::symu: Devotion
-->Modern:
:symwg::symrg::symug: Kiki-Jiki Pod
:0mana::symur::0mana: Affinity
Those, are some absolutely odd lists, if by my own standards anyway, wow. The first one looks like a hybrid of old Solar Flare (wraths and Rites/some digging) with Bant midrange. The second looks like an almost "bant control" list that decided to get brave and start running creatures besides Thragtusk! Well, props to them, they made some legitimate wins in dailies, I can't say it's bad, just that I'd prefer a more focused list.
I mean, why even bother with a one-of Prime Speaker, if you're doing 4x of Sphinx's Revelation + a Staff of Nin?
Also, small update, I almost stole another 1st place at my FNM last week, I went back to the mana-dork version, and think I've found a sweet spot. I present to you Vladimir Mayoral's list (1st place WMCQ Columbia http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/1210)
For those interested, here's some of the highlights:
I kept the mainboard card for card, and was impressed at how consistent the mana was. 6 Mana guys felt like exactly enough, as opposed to the builds with 4x Arbor Elf and 4x basic Forest. 25 lands also just helped tremendously for those games where you don't have early acceleration.
If I recall correctly, I mulligan'd maybe one game of the night, and that was the first game where I was still not quite shuffled enough/was fiddling with the mainboard and had everything clumped still.
Sleep - this card is encouraging me to try taking the deck in a more aggressive direction, with disrupting the enemy's tempo at pivotal moments. Yet it would still be midrange, so not Geist of Saint Traft bant.deck. I 2-0'd my last Naya Blitz opponent almost single handedly thanks to seeing my 1-of Sleep both games; it felt borderline gimmicky, and absolutely filthy.
My sideboard was drastically different from Mayorals, and not quite focused as I'd like, but thrown together sort of since I did not have the 2x Jace, Memory Adepts;
2x Detention Sphere
1x Jace, Memory Adept
3x Memory's Journey
2x Negate
4x Rhox Faithmender
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
My first two rounds, I regret to say were free wins/high schoolers playing jank, and I really don't feel good about it. It's unfortunate, my shop has some of the most competitive players locally, but it's also grown into a *huge* shop that is appealing to the casuals as well.
My 3rd-5th rounds were intense -
3rd round saw me paired against a Humanimator-combo deck. He went first in G1, and dug straight into a T4 Angel of Glory's Rise + Kessig Malcontents - followed by untapping and Fiend Hunter chaining the Malcontents. I totally understand, sometimes you just gotta T4 Angel somebody. That aside, he was fairly new and told me he was returning to the format after a long break, and he made very slow plays. I unboarded Garruk Relentless, Angel of Serenity x2 (surprisingly, I wanted more early ways to disrupt him), and Sleep for the 3x Memory's Journey + Detention Sphere. Now, I don't know what exactly the correct sideboarding is against Humanimator, but I also have to say I noticed he hit basic lands in every one of our games (which he later told me were 1/2 ofs) so I also brought in Acidic Slime hoping to mana-screw him. Long story short, G3 went to turns, with me on T5 being 2-3 damage short of finishing him. The absolute best thing I did was Memory's Journey over Rest in Peace - going "Rites on the Stack, Memory's Journey" was the game changer for G2 and G3.
4th round was another long and painful slow player, and a Prime Speaker Bant mirror. All of the 3 games were just grindy Thragtusk wars - but we went to time and I was able to win it on the third. I think the most impactful cards that played in my favor were Acidic Slime and Clone, as well as Alchemist's Refuge at the very end. My Slime ate his sideboarded in Assemble the Legion - complete luck on my part, and at the very end, we were trying to play around each other, him with an active Kessig Wolf Run + very huge lethal Restoration Angel. I had two outs to him thanks to Clone and Sigarda, Host of Herons in hand in tandem with Refuge, flashed in Sigarda won the day. This is probably a very rushed and not thorough explanation of the board state, but the main point is Alchemist's Refuge can single handedly swing the late game midrange wars, especially if you have the clutch countermagic in hand.
My 5th round was against Naya Blitz, and it went perfect for me, and awful for him. 2-0 thanks to Sleep showing up both games, as well as double Thragtusk on the play. G2 went fairly long - I boarded entirely defensively and took no chances, 8 things came out and went in:
out -2x Angel of Serenity, -x3 Garruk, Primal Hunter , -2x Syncopate, -1x Clone for +2x Detention Sphere, +4x Rhox Faithmender, and +2x Acidic Slime.
MVP - Acidic Slime. I've been genuinely wanting to assess why so many people are claiming Acidic Slime is bonkers these days, and said why not and brought it in. Nuked one of his lands on T3, and then traded with a Frontline Medic. I remain convinced now that Slime is a very strong anti-aggro card, despite being a 5 drop and seeming like an odd choice (it doesn't gain life or isn't a sweeper).
Ended up getting 2nd place, thanks to the 3rd round being a draw, oh well. The most important part is that every FNM I'm attempting to or feel like I'm finding new key cards and powerful strategies to add to our compendium.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Sounds sweet!
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
4 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Gavony Township
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Thragtusk
4 Restoration Angel
3 Loxodon Smiter
2 Arbor Elf
2 Acidic Slime
2 Prime Speaker Zegana
2 Angel of Serenity
1 Clone
4 Farseek
2 Beck // Call
2 Detention Sphere
2 Plasm Capture
2 Rest in Peace
2 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Negate
2 Feeling of Dread
2 Blind Obedience
2 Acidic Slime
2 Supreme Verdict
The variant I have been testing. Plasm Captue really shine in this style of deck and at the very least let's you double drop or Gavony+Drop that turn for anything. I have used it to fuse Beck//Call or Angel with something else.
Hey, thanks for hopping in and sharing!
I like it, just a few things I'm skeptical of; no basic Forest(s) for 6 mana guys. It feels like a really necessary evil, even the Naya decks who only run 4 mana guys/4 Farseek/(2 Arbor Elf or no Arbor Elf) still generally want 2 basic Forest to guarantee at least 10 turn one green sources. Even then, they view Avacyn's Pilgrim as a T2 ramp play off of a T1 checkland, generally.
Which is really unfortunate, because as we're all seeing, Plasm Capture is fairly amazing - and we need the manabase absolutely as strong as possible if we hope to utilize it. It's also unfortunate, but Avacyn's Pilgrim obviously doesn't help us there, which is fine, you're running Plasm simply as a 2-of. I do think it has build-around potential though, it just needs the right framework.
How has Beck // Call been working for you? Any specifics or context in how you use it is what I'm looking for, sorry to be nitpicky - I haven't played the card at all yet, and haven't envisioned any ideal uses of it or what not.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
There are little plays with it too, like having Smiter+Pilgrim and just needing to dig for minimal cost with a chance to chain a couple mana dorks into cards.
I'm still tinkering with the mana base, but I've been fairly happy with the spell base, Beck//Call is kind of a flex slot but has been devastating in enough games that it warrants a lot of testing.
I would also like to share one of my own possible new starting points on Bant Midrange (bottom of the post) the problem or rather, the challenge is figuring out how to achieve a well balanced/polished list in the end and what directions there are to go in. For example, I tend to test things in a hyper-Simic focused direction, generally I'll throw something in as a 4-of, and I'll realize right quick, okay, this is garbage, or wow, this is actually pulling it's weight. The fine adjustments and tuning take way longer with this kind of approach, but it does help me identify strong 4-of's that want to be played together, given the strategy, or identify what supports what/plays best with each other.
The other biggest reason I like going to the extremes right away, and then gradually peeling back, is that you find the limits you can push your decks' greed/overall power level. What mix of stuff are we playing, and how high of a curve can we *consistently* get away with?
Also, addressing Plasm Capture - we're probably going to have to have a splintered thread conversation just trying to crack this one alone. There's a ton of ways to go about it, but I'm leaning towards a version not playing Avacyn's Pilgrim. It definitely "feels" like an offensive card, and this is where I stress the importance of finding the deck's sweet spot/limits and how greedy it can run.
Here's where I'm at now, I'd like to explain my process too and where I'm starting from. (thanks for bearing with me) :> Rambling inc; I'll put this in spoilers and the decklist is at the bottom if you want to just skip.
Fast forward to where we are here, I see so much discussion about Restoration Angel vs Advent, and how Resto is still the "better" 4 drop. Why not play both? Hell, what if we could do Plasm Capture + Resto + Advent? The other thing I should mention that I changed in the Naya list - I cut the Loxodon Smiters for Voice of Resurgence x4. It was spectacular, really, I'm not knocking on the Smiter, I know he has high power to draw off of with Garruk/Zegana and all that, and that he's the "best" T2 blocker against aggro, but again, curve considerations led me to here. I can't help but feel in the longer games, Loxodon Smiter is obviously beefy, but that he has virtually no upside. (Pat Chapin said quite awhile ago that he thinks the correct thing for midrange vs midrange decks to do is to board out their smiters) Voice's token continues to grow, and overall feels more synergistic with the rest of the deck, to me anyway, as well as completely hosing other control decks, and will be a fine T2 play against aggro if you failed to find acceleration - a T3 Smiter is not likely going to save you against hyper-aggro in that same situation. It's also going to leave you behind something after a wrath, like Thragtusk - so we have a 2 drop that seems very well positioned against all three archetypes to me.
Ditching the Smiter in favor of Voice may be a move in the right direction, or not, but I feel the deck runs very clean even with 4 12 drops - which is where we actually want to be. Yeah, I said it, I've felt all this time Smiter has been in there because everyone else packs Smiter, and the 3 drop spot was vacant. Screw it, let's get to doing more powerful things, Voice can hold the ground early on the curve, and we can play significantly stronger cards than Smiter because 4 is the "sweet spot".
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
2x Arbor Elf
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Restoration Angel
4x Master Biomancer
4x Advent of the Wurm
4x Thragtusk
2x Prime Speaker Zegana
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter
4x Farseek
2x Syncopate
Lands: [24]
4x Breeding Pool
4x Hinterland Harbor
4x Temple Garden
4x Sunpetal Grove
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Forest
2x Gavony Township
2x Hallowed Fountain
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I do like this list, although there is a few things that I would test with it. Trostani, Selesnya's Voice could be worth a spot (or even a Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage or 2).
I don't feel like we need Angel of Serenity, but Progenitor Mimic is an amazing counter to it that plays into our themes.
Some folks over in the Bant-o-Mancer thread have been pitching the Moorland Haunt + Master Biomancer interaction which is rather powerful.
Ranger's Path is a powerful 2 of if you need some epic ramp. Wolfir Silverheart + Master Biomancer or Advent of the Wurm is also pretty great.
I don't know in what way I would change the list, but this is what I would be testing.
"A Plague on All Your Houses!" - Thespian's Stage Pox
Cassial your list looks really good and i like your style of working down from 4x's. I'm not sure I agree with the 4x voices over 4x loxo but i see the positives if a master biomancer sticks around. id say if your meta is midrange/control> aggro then its a good move, otherwise I'd rather loxo.
I'm playing 2 mimics sideboard and 2 AoS mb. If I'm playing a midrange or control its a straight swap game 2. Both are good cards but mimic does nothing against aggro unfortunately.
2x Angel of Serenity
4x Arbor Elf
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Loxodon Smiter
2x Master Biomancer
2x Prime Speaker Zegana
4x Restoration Angel
4x Thragtusk
4x Farseek
4x Breeding Pool
1x Cavern of Souls
5x Forest
2x Gavony Township
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Hinterland Harbor
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Temple Garden
3x Acidic Slime
2x Negate
2x Progenitor Mimic
3x Rest in Peace
3x Supreme Verdict
2x Syncopate
My current plan is bant ramp g1, assess my opponent then transform the deck into either a midrange w/ some counters, bant control by dropping dorks and master biomancers or stick to ramp for g2. We have so much power in this deck and so many options to use it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26124_Brad-vs-Todd-Peddle-To-The-Metal-vs-Progenitor-Bant.html
untapping with it happens! pretty sweet!
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
I don't have scg premium, can you give us a deck list and key points please?
2 Angel of Serenity
4 Centaur Healer
3 Progenitor Mimic
4 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
Lands (26)
1 Forest
4 Breeding Pool
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Gavony Township
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Hinterland Harbor
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
4 Detention Sphere
2 Azorius Charm
2 Selesnya Charm
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Farseek
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Rest in Peace
2 Dissipate
2 Negate
2 Lavinia of the Tenth
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Supreme Verdict
here is the list. There was just one moment when sire of insanity was in play for some turns and then AoS was top decked then next turn the mimic was played. After Sire no one had removal so......
If sire of insanity gets popular it'll make decks with powerful top decks good.....
it was sexy
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Yo Red! This was exactly what I needed to read to get back to work in anticipation for states again. I haven't watched the full video yet, but I skimmed it. I'm not gonna lie, I don't care much for their list, but it is a starting point.
That being said, I'd probably need to watch the video and hear the deck tech, such as, why no mana-dorks, and what the sideboarding plan is (if any). If anyone else has a good starting point they've gotten any testing in at all with (a Progenitor Bant shell) please by all means lets see it-
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Re mb, all the recent PSB have moved towards a control element, opposed to its ramp origins. This explans the no dorks i suppose.
Edit: Regarding our "jumping off point" for construction,your brew (Cassial) was quite nice and I like the theory behind it. My idea is to base my deck off 3 early PSB decks which had the ramp package.
4 Arbor Elf
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
3 Prime Speaker Zegana
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Forest
4 Breeding Pool
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Gavony Township
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Hinterland Harbor
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Syncopate
4 Farseek
4 Arbor Elf
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Restoration Angel
3 Strangleroot Geist
4 Thragtusk
3 Prime Speaker Zegana
5 Forest
4 Breeding Pool
3 Gavony Township
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Hinterland Harbor
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
3 Angel of Serenity
3 Arbor Elf
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Clone
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
3 Prime Speaker Zegana
3 Forest
4 Breeding Pool
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Gavony Township
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Hinterland Harbor
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
4 Farseek
So I've been thinking our shell should be :
8-6 mana dorks (2 flexi spots)
4x farseek
4x loxodon smiter/centaur healer/ voice of resurgence
4x restoration angel
4x thragtusk
2-3 Garruk, Primal Hunter(1 felxi sot)
6x ramp targets ( AoS, PSZ, PMimic, ect)
24x land
From here you have 3-6 custom spots to play with.
I hope this helps and happy brewing
-DGM Meta analysis:
-What's changing (cards) for this strategy from DGM then?:
-Card opinions that didn't make the cut:
Advent of the Wurm - Same exact logic for Voice. It's not bad by any means in here though, and is a very strong stand-alone respectable card. I don't like the fact that it doesn't swing into enemy Thragtusk(s) when you need to be the beatdown. The Wurm is a 10 out of 10 play against aggro though, for sure, but it's a midrange card that doesn't stack up well against *winning the long term game* against other midrange. Loses a few points for being a token, and not being recurrable with Angel of Serenity, too.
[CARD]
Plasm Capture[/CARD] - Love the card, but in short, it's cute. Absolutely not needed for our more proactive lists - this is another card that should be carefully built around, and I'm not sure what the ideal shell for it is. Quite frankly, that and I don't have the time to figure out it. In truth, I've moved away from countermagic entirely, only in the sideboard, and only narrow countermagic (like Negate) for the narrow off-chance matchup where it might be relevant. That, and the fact that mana-dorks simply don't play well with Plasm - it's meant for a controllier list probably playing sweeps and without mana-dudes.
-Results so far and where I'm at:
Jund:
-Finally, the "stock" list:
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Restoration Angel
4x Thragtusk
3x Angel of Serenity
3x Arbor Elf
2x Prime Speaker Zegana
2x Garruk Relentless
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Progenitor Mimic
4x Farseek
2x Selesnya Charm
1x Simic Charm
Lands: [24]
4x Temple Garden
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Breeding Pool
4x Hinterland Harbor
3x Forest
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Gavony Township
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Ray of Revelation
2x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
2x Detention Sphere
2x Rhox Faithmender
2x Aetherize
2x Progenitor Mimic
2x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Open
Thanks again to everyone who's kept up. I'm off to try this at FNM, and we'll see how it fares at the SCG open in Charlotte NC tomorrow. Any and all feedback is sorely appreciated, especially in time for States next week. Let's do this peoples!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Note: The Geist is currently a placeholder for another Master Biomancer. The guy is a house every time he drops.
4 Centaur Healer
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Thragtusk
3 Restoration Angel
2 Prime Speaker Zegana
2 Angel of Serenity
1 Master Biomancer
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Progenitor Mimic
Spells:
4 Farseek
2 Detention Sphere
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Plasm Capture
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Breeding Pool
3 Hinterland Harbor
1 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gavony Township
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Psychic Spiral
2 Syncopate
2 Negate
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Acidic Slime
2 Rest in Peace
A few other notes:
I was playing final round against UWR this weekend. We hit turn 5, he tapped out and passed. I went Progenitor Mimic copy Thragtusk, then swing 5. I have never seen a control player make such an obvious desperation play. He untapped, dropped a land, cycled Azorious Charm, dropped Augur, all to get to the Searing Spear for that Mimic. Copying most any target in this deck and untapping is probably gg. He's that good.
Before anyone call's him crazy re: the reanimator stratergy, I 100% agree. I started this season as a 4c reanimator player then moved to junk when the meta sped up around gatecrash. Reanimator players care F'all about GY hate. Your not advancing your board, they can get rid of it instantly (abrupt decay) or play midrange and your ANOTHER turn slower now because you've wasted a turn playing RIP (or something) instead of farseek or a threat. I play Gy hate against Snapcaster decks primarily, not reanimator.
I again agree about Voice, Wurm and Plasm. great cards but not for this build. Your template looks good and works with my outlined shell (great minds think alike lol). I still want Master Biomancer to work (im playing 8 dorks just for him) but he's seeming like a win more card atm :/
Your sb is completely up in the air I suppose, however id urge you to have 3 acidic slimes in there. If your in the midrange grind or control matchup i assume you'll have 3 mimic mb and mimic+acidic slime is DIRTY!!!!! I would rather be casting acidic over thragtusk, seriously its that good.
Other then that we also have the option of transformational SB into Prime Spreaker Bant control. Side out your dorks for supreme verdicts and syncopate/ negate/ Dissipate (counter of choice).
Jund is going to be hard, I'm really interested in what you find out. If they drop a Sire of insanity I guess we just go into top deck "man mode"?
Well, I'm running almost the exact same list, and I've never wished I had a syncopate in game 1, or Supreme Verdict. I don't even board Verdict, it works against the speed of the deck.
Me, personally, I love Master Biomancer. I want to add another one to my deck. A 6/6 Smiter for 3? Yeah, I'll take that all day long. Also, if you stack your triggers correctly, Prime Speaker gets Biomancer counters, then her own, then draw +2 more cards, or more if you've been pumping with Township. Good times, my friend.
Also, Huntmaster of the Fells doesn't have an activated ability. Pithing Needle won't do anything to stop him. Still good to have in the side, just not for him.
Howd you go at the open?
Back in here, glad to see the awesome replies over the weekend/will have to answer these one by one! As for the charlotte classic, I failed to get up early enough, thanks to a late long night at FNM and mulling with my teammates over a lot of matchups and possibilities for the next day. I really need to not do that this weekend for states, note to self.
So yeah, what was everyone's take from the charlotte results? I at least watched the coverage from home, I'm a little miffed to see not a single Prime Speaker anywhere all day there.
I also wanted to hit base on my last FNM - I took home another 1st place finish, against some of our best players. I should also mention that I completely BS lucksacked it, I could seriously write an essay on it. The reason I bring that up, the details aren't as relevant as what I'm trying to get across, but I can't shake the feeling my list is going through some serious consistency issues. I stayed up gauntlet testing all last night (and am at work without sleep now, woo hoo!) grinding games with my list vs my good friend's various R/G aggro builds, and get the absolute worst draws all night long and can't win a single game to save my life. It's a harsh reality I'm willing to face, but time is not on my side for states at the moment, and I might have to either play the control/midrange version, or another deck I'm comfortable with (Gruul Aggro/Midrange (green based)).
A couple of points - I know the above sounds like a pile of negative, I'm trying to glean as much possible useful information for us all to beating what seems too difficult at the moment. And hopefully we can share/innovate and figure this out.
My FNM report:
R2 - 2-1 Junk Rites! One of my friends I got paired with, he's good, and Acidic slimed my face something awful in G1 on the play. Most disheartening part is I could've easily gotten there with 4, if I just could've seen one more land..yeah you all know how that goes. G2 - I board out my 4x Loxodon Smiter, bring in 2x of my own Acidic Slime, 1x Sigarda, and a second Progenitor Mimic. I also decided to side out the one of Simic Charm for a one-of Beck // Call - I like the Simic Charm as Slime insurance, but I figured I'm on the play I'm going to Garruk R and Slime him first, I'd rather have a late game big spell. I was surprised, the game went late, and I worked my way rapidly up to 8 mana, with a Zegana in hand, but no high power creature to use her on, I saw the Beck, went for the fuse and pulled ahead. It's also worth mentioning, in both G2 and G3, I had to play caround my opponent's Sever the Bloodline - in other words he had it in his GY, (after hardcasting it and 2 for 1'ing my mana guys early) and has Angel of Serenity on field, but I can't tap out and play Mimic - he'll just sever it next turn. G3 ended up going to turns, and my opponent was dead in another two turns to me probably, but I couldn't quite close quick enough. He ended up saying let's see what our next draws would've been - he had nothing, and I had plenty of ammo, so he conceded it to me, sure was nice of him. MVP - Sigarda, Host of Herons, affectionately now nicknamed "5 you." Absolute house in the late grind, when Gavony is active and you're trying to race. I also did see Acidic Slime show up - but it was way late in the game and I never wanted to cast it / it was a completely dead draw, so I'm really questioning where they're worth it as a 2 of to bring in, or to have.
R3 - 2-0 Selesnya (Somewhat Tokens) Midrange. This absolutely sucked and seeded me into first - I got paired against my best buddy who comes with me every FNM for the first time in forever, with a prototype deck we'd just started working on for him. I turn 5 Angel of Serenity'd one game and proceeded to perfectly curve into another the second game, of course I get the effortless nutdraws when paired against my friend and our fledgling deck, he proceeded to drop and scrap it back to the drawing board after the beating. /sigh @ variance I guess
R4 - 2-1 RUG Midrange - Okay, back to real hard games, one of our best players, he's running a sweet RUG list with Huntmasters, some Turn // Burn, and RUG goodstuff, with Aetherling at the top. About that dumb luck thing I alluded to earlier, I don't know what it is, but against this player, I always see my Sigarda against him, even months ago when he was playing Humanimator, I'd T3 Sigarda on him into oblivion. G2 was insanely close, and I miscalculated a race situation - he managed to stabilize at one life with some clutch Snapcaster Mage plays + Huntmaster flips, and Aetherling backswings me for lethal next turn + hardcast bonfire for the last one point of damage on me. Also in G1 I noticed he had a Progenitor Mimic, which was thankfully taken care of by Angel of Serenity - so after careful consideration, I decided to board out my AoS's in G3 because of the liability against his mimic potential. Ultimately I don't recall my exact boarding, but the legendary hexproof 5 you Angel showed up against him early to swing a race for me.
R5 - 2-1 Aristocrats Act 2 - This is the matchup that has me hesitant to play our beloved deck at States this weekend. Another one of our great players/buddy of mine, blah blah blah, we agree to draw for the last round and are the only undefeateds, but we're playing it out for the extra packs. So I explained to him that I'm completely unfamiliar with Aristocrats and how this matchup plays for our deck, and we sort of talk out our lines of play as we go along. Quite simply, I lost horribly G1 to land screw, and have felt that all night, my 24 lands just sometimes isn't consistently curving right. I saw a fairly aggressive start from him G1 with Doomed Traveler, Lingering Souls, and Skirsdag High Priest - which in all honesty isn't really that aggressive. But here's the teachable moment; I boarded in my Trostani / Rhox Faithmender package for him, thinking the plan is to life-tank him/treat him like aggro. The weird thing about Aristocrats - post board their deck wants to become control against us, and WE have to be the beatdown. He simply had me dead on board multiple turns in a row to combo'ing off with Blasphemous Act if he ever drew it, I could never draw a D-Sphere or anything to interact with his Boros Reckoner/Blood Artists. Upon realizing this, I see Trostani/Rhox Faithmender show up late, and never again will they in this matchup, they'd have been liabilities and only slowed me down (I boarded out Serenity's for them, thinking I needed to lower my curve and play defensively) Once again, the legendary 5 You lady showed up to allow me to reasonably race and apply pressure. G2 showed me that Serenity is one of the only/few ways we actually have of interacting with their deck, if we can't spot remove the problem Reckoners, we have to race, it's really that simple. All while committing more to the board to get wrathed by Act, it's a very disconcerting time bomb in that my own deck can help defeat itself very easily by not drawing a hitter each turn in this race scenario. TLDR: Bad matchup seems very bad, I lucksacked it again, and swung for lethal on my opponent, but was dead to his backswing, I also was dead to him redirecting Boros Reckoner damage on my head (6/6 Zegana and I'm at 6 life) but the Reckoner's trigger would happen after the player had dropped to 0.
The other biggest takeaway, I kept feeling 24 lands and 3 Arbor Elf was wrong all night and just not getting there or barely barely getting there. Then I last night simply changed 1 Angel of Serenity for Sigarda, main, and cut one Elf for an additional Cavern of Souls, and turn a basic Forest into another color source - the deck completely folds to itself flooding or ramping into a Thrag and then doing nothing. Argh. Sorry for the ramble, I'm very seriously envious of Reanimator's consistency right now - in all of my hands on gauntlet testing my friends with Reanimator, I've yet to take a single mulligan, and just the flow of the deck is ridiculous in comparison. Either the grass is greener, but I just can't help but feel there's got to be a magic number curve for us, where 4x mana guys and 4x farseek is enough with 24-25 lands.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
However I think 3 AoS is to much. And am going to try a single Progenitor Mimic.
I kinda abandoned the controllish version awhile ago. This decks creatures are just better then almost every other deck in the format. And, even if some other creature is really good, once again, Clone enables us to mimic it and have it ourselves.
So, yeah, Clone. Don't leave the house without them.
I do like clones in the creature heavy version. Could you share a list?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R7BPPvCSUc
The deck list is at the start of the video fyi