[Deck Primer] White weenie (post M14)

  • #1
    Morimacil's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    // Lands
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Mutavault
    15 Plains

    // Creatures
    3 Riders of Gavony
    4 Champion of the Parish
    4 War Falcon
    4 Daring Skyjek
    4 Imposing Sovereign
    4 Boros Elite
    4 Silverblade Paladin

    // Spells
    4 Path of Bravery
    4 Silver-Inlaid Dagger
    2 Brave the Elements



    White weenie or monow humans.
    This is the list I've been testing for the past week, and honestly, it seems to be really really good.
    There is a lot more targeted removal these days, and not that many supreme verdict decks. For the controling decks with spot removal, since most of their removal costs 2 mana, some of it even 3, and a ton of your threats cost only 1 mana, and brave the elements is a 1 mana counter, you can just kinda flood the board, and overwhelm them quite easily, they cant keep up. It gets even better post board with thalia and judge's familiar.
    Mutavault also helps vs the few decks with sweepers, and path to bravery and dagger allow you to still add a ton of pressure to the board without actually overcommiting in case you do suspect a sweeper.

    And against the aggro decks (and midrange, but there also seems to be fewer of those nowdays), well imposing sovereign is beastly, disabling blocking for creatures the turn they come into play, and disabling haste, which allows you to race other aggro decks efficiently. Path also helps you race (with its little anti-hellrider effect), and riders of gavony and brave the elements also help getting through blockers. Nearhearth pilgrims post SB for some more life.
    Also, not having to take damage from your lands means that you start the game with 2-4 life more than your opponent, which is quite huge for racing ^^


    So the deck is agressive, fast, reliable, no mana issues, almost never need to mulligan, you can count on it to reliably apply early pressure pretty much every game no matter the draw.
    Low landcount and mutavaults mean that you rarely get flooded too.

    On the downside though, this deck is obviously very weak to utility creatures, having no way to efficiently remove them. Banisher Priest should probably find a spot in the SB if those become an issue at some point, but so far is has been fine, there arent really a lot of daybreak rangers, Ulvenwald trackers, or cards like that, and the few that are run can often just be raced or nullified by riders of gavony.


    The SB is a bit of a work in progress, but so far it feels like its covering most bases. Plus, you cant really dilute the aggro party of the deck too much by siding in too much stuff.


    Encroaching wastes: seem like they would be a great fit for the deck, but they actually arent, you dont get to 5 mana all that often, if you do, its probably not on turn 5 (when the wastes would really help), and if you do on turn 5, you probably have something better to do with your mana anyway. Plus, too many colorless lands isnt a good idea, since you have quite a few cards that dont cost colorless mana, or much of it, and you already have mutavaults.

    Adding in other colors: It could probably be done, but I tried it, and didnt like it all that much. First of all, adding another color means you need to use shocklands, which makes path to bravery significantly worse. And racing harder. Plus, you would most likely be splashing for a spell, not for a human, and you would only have 8 sources of the splashed color (since you can only add 8 dual lands, and you cant add any non-white producing lands), so that leads to some consistency issues.
    It might be needed if a problem that just crushes the deck and that it has no answers to is identified, but for now, the loss of consistency for the tiny extra power youd get doesnt seem worth it at all.
  • #2
    Trying to build another version of this... the best is G/W similar to Wescoe's block constructed. Having judge's familiar and Dryad Militant and thalia will shut down other decks from the start. Charm/Conclave and Smiter and Advent of the Wurm are just too good mana to power. Without Honor of the Pure, I'm not sure its prudent to play too many weak creatures in this meta.

    I mean since Wescoe played it its technically WW right?
  • #3
    It's no Honor of the Pure, but do you think there's a spot for a couple Door to the Destinies?
    http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/109/709/635120394183526961.jpg

    It may be too slow for WW, but if you calculate that turn 4 you may not be in win range (due to creature stalls or creature deaths), then dropping a door may help your follow on turns. As new creatures enter, they can possibly enter with +1/+1 and grow as the turns continue.

    Or maybe some angelic back up in the form of Arch Angel of Thune

    I'm probably over thinking something that doesn't need fixing. Without something to pump these guys up, I'd fear games going beyond turn 6 when people start bringing out the big guns (such as them pesky wurms or dragons).
  • #4
    I think bant weenies would be best as most of the strongest creatures that are "white" are either U/W or G/W
    "It's good to learn from your failures, but I prefer to learn from the failures of others."—Jace Beleren Cool

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  • #5
    A White Weenie deck that doesn't run Brave the Elements as a four-of will not do as well as if it had all four maindeck'd.

    1.) You have eight of your 23 lands tap for colorless mana. That will slow you down and, in enough games, outright stop you from playing cards altogether. I highly suggest removing the Cavern of Souls entirely and trimming Mutavault to a three-of. Mutavault is there to give you resilience in case of a board wipe, but seeing more than two in a game would likely be bad news.

    2.) White Weenie's strength in this format will not be speed. Boros will outrace you with your current creature list and Bant Auras will outclass you before you drop something relevant. Cards that need to go:

    a.) War Falcon Seems good, right? The synergy really isn't there. Other than being "fast" in the early game, it's situationally useless. It doesn't benefit from your Riders, from your Dagger, and if you draw it late game after a wipe it might as well be a red spell in your mono-white deck.

    b.) Daring Skyjek -- this is not Accorder Paladin, who was good and was even better in multiples with a Brave the Elements in hand. This is a 3/1 for two that will likely never see flight because you have no card draw and no creature spawning. You can do better in this part of your curve. Personally, I think Thalia, Guardian of Thraben would be good here. She does much more for you than Skyjek does, and will come out on top of most early blocks. Also, her "evasion" isn't situational.

    c.) Boros Elite is also not going to be worth his weight. Without a source of haste or creature spawning he'll rarely see his boost; and, by the time he does, you'll be swinging at blockers that will eat him (Boros Reckoner, namely). Elite Vanguard was better than this guy currently is, in my opinion.

    I can tell that your strategic idea was "Flood the field with tiny dudes, then drop enchantments to boost them and gain life." But this deck has zero resilience other than Mutavault and a win condition that relies on too much (all these tiny, inefficient creatures hitting the board and swinging while I draw just the pumps and enchantments and equipment I need to make them relevant as the game progresses to win). The best cards you've got in the deck currently are Imposing Sovereign, Silverblade Paladin, and Brave the Elements.

    White Weenie, insofar as I have always played it, has its strength in three areas:

    I. White has inexpensive creatures that have tremendous power / potent tactics inherent in them (typically no other color has this save maybe black).

    II. White can drop "fast" little guys to swing at control or take the brunt of aggro, but as turns progress, you can drop progressively better cards that maintain the theme of "cheap but game-changing." An example from this in M14 is Imposing Sovereign, or my favorite, Fiendslayer Paladin.

    III. For a low-curve aggro deck, White Weenie has the ability to have a mid and late game. We may not have red's reach with direct damage, but we have sneaky alpha strikes from Brave the Elements and creatures that are as relevant turn 3 as they are turn 8.

    That being said, here's my take on M14's White Weenie:

    White Weenie Aggro

    Swallow the Sun's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    4 Champion of the Parish
    4 Precinct Captain
    4 Imposing Sovereign
    4 Fiendslayer Paladin
    4 Silverblade Paladin
    4 Riders of Gavony

    Planeswalker: 4
    3 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
    2 Giden, Champion of Justice

    Spells: 8
    4 Brave the Elements
    4 Silver-Inlaid Dagger

    Lands: 23
    20 Plains
    3 Mutavault

    WKnights of New MirrodinW


    Thanks to arête and Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Signature and Avatar!
  • #6
    Ok, so let's answer a couple of the comments:

    door of destinies or archangel of thune: door has no impact before turn 5, andgel non before turn 6, at the earliest, so those are both too slow imo.
    Path of bravery is the pump spell here, it's only 3 mana, and while it doesnt always pump vs aggro decks, the lifegain effect is just as nice as pump when they are trying to race you.

    GW instead of monoW: That would probably end up more like a midrange deck with fatter dudes. Which can definitly be a thing. However, you lose some life, speed and consistency, to some slightly bigger mostly vanilla creatures, and I'm not sure that is the best in an undefined format. A direction worth exploring for sure, but not the one we are going for here.


    Swallow:
    1: 8 colorless lands has so far not been much of an issue, since there are only 10 spells in the deck that caverns doesnt help cast (and in a pinch, you can still name bird if needed).
    But if you add in more spells, such as brave the elements, then indeed you need more lands that can produce colored mana.

    2: The deck is actually quite fast, path to bravery and imposing sovereign do a lot of work to help race decks such as boros, that and starting with 2-4 extra life than they do.
    War falcon: Has been quite amazing so far, does in fact work well with dagger, even though he isnt a human, "just" 4 flying power is still 4 flying power.
    Skyjek: yup, isnt accorder paladin, but accorder paladin isnt T2. Could be thalias indeed, I have my thalias in the board and they do sometimes swap for skyjeks straight up, sometimes they swap for sovereigns though.
    It isnt the best 2 drop that white weenie has ever seen, but his evasion ends up being relevant decently often, and he pairs better with silverblade than thalia does.
    He can also swing more reliably than thalias or precinct captains in my experience. If you start the game with something like a war falcon into sovereign into silverblade, your opponent plays something like experiment one into burning tree into boar, on your third turn, you can swing with skyjek and falcon, for 8, putting your opponent at 10 or below, or forcing him to chump (and threatening lethal the next turn if he doesnt)
    But if you go turn 1 plains, nothing, turn 2 captain or thalia, well on turn 3 you are still not swinging. So instead of having your opponent at 10 life, he is now at 20.

    Boros elite: elite vanguard isnt t2, and we dont have many other options for humans.


    Your deck looks fine, but it is much slower, more midrangey.
    With my curve, I can use all of my mana on each turn, and since my 1 drops have 2-3 power, and my 2 drops too, that makes it worth it.
    In your deck, well you only have 4 one-drops (8 if you count dagger, but I dont). That means that you will often not make very efficient use of your mana, especially on turn 1. You will also have to mulligan more, since with the much higher curve, 2 land hands will be unkeepable 90% of the time.
    And since you have more support spells, that will also mean more mulligans, or less consistency. between riders, path, dagger, and brave the elements, I have 13 "support spells", while you have 17, so more likely to draw a hand with all lands and support spells, but no threats, which is always awkward (unless you are playing bant auras :p )

    And with a higher curve and inefficient use of mana, well there, you might as well splash another color tbh. shocklands mean that you start the game at 18 life, if and only if you make efficiant use of your mana. If you are going to be dropping a plains and saying go on turn one, you might as well play a shockland tapped on turn one.
    Last edited by Morimacil: 7/15/2013 10:48:57 AM
  • #7
    Just not enough power in this deck imo.

    Splashing a color just makes this deck far stronger imo, for example black for cartel aristocrat, lingering souls and xathrid necromancer. Splash is almost free with caverns anyway and gives you much more solid options all throughout.

    Brave the elements is a great trick but it doesn't salvage an underpowered deck. Path of bravery is jank imo, the problem with it is that you will usually just be benefitting from one of the effects which make it overcosted in most matchups. Against aggro you'll rarely have the +1+1 effect making it some overcosted lifegain spell, against control you'll have both but don't care about the life making it an overcosted honor of the pure. I had really like it if the condition for activation wasn't so harsh (like having more life than 10 or your opponent) but as it is it's just too much 'win more', ie it only works when you're doing good anyway.
  • #8
    You should check out this article by Craig Wescoe.

    Backpack's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Main Deck:
    Boros Elite
    Champion of the Parish
    Fiend Hunter
    Fiendslayer Paladin
    Knight of Glory
    Precinct Captain
    Riders of Gavony
    Silverblade Paladin
    Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

    Brave the Elements
    Silver-Inlaid Dagger

    Mutavault
    20 Plains


    I think his inclusion of fiend hunters is important for the deck to be able to push through damage. They are much better than running 4 daggers/riders IMO. However, i think Imposing Sovereign can probably be in the mainboard over the knights.
  • #9
    Yup, quite a good article. Havent gotten around to testing fiendslayer paladin yet. Craig seems to really like it, and it certainly would have sinergy with path to bravery, but I'm not convinced by the bear sized body without evasion in this format, there are a lot of dudes with 3 toughness around.
    Which is another reason why I like the skyjeks over the captains or knights. They can pretty much always attack, and will either trade, or fly over.

    I also like the sovereigns main over thalias, but that part is just a metagame call I guess.


    Fiend hunters... Now we have access to Banisher Priest, which do pretty much the same thing, so the question becomes, how many of those effects do we want, and what kind of split?
    And they still suffer from the tiny body with no evasion syndrome, sadly. in which case something like pacifism or O-ring might just end up being better.


    Oh, also something else to note: This deck dies to izzet staticaster, so dont run it if you expect a lot of those.

    Edit: Bonds of faith should probably also be considered in the removal spot, probably just better than pacifism.
    Last edited by Morimacil: 7/15/2013 1:16:10 PM
  • #10
    Quote from Morimacil

    Oh, also something else to note: This deck dies to izzet staticaster, so dont run it if you expect a lot of those.


    In my local meta, Jund/Naya Hyper aggro players also keep Electrickery in their sideboard for the same reason. Cheaper than staticaster, and being mono-red allows it to be run in multiple deck types.
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  • #11
    I hope people play this in my meta post rotation, it gets hosed so badly by Electrickery, Golgari Charm, and Izzet Staticaster that it isn't even funny.

    Heaven forbid Curse of Death's Hold...
  • #12
    I'm afraid without Honor of the Pure the strategy just isn't viable. The sad part is is that every other piece is there, just not the keystone. Frown
  • #13
    With Path of Bravery you probably want to play Gather the Townsfolk. Playing Boros Elite goes along with this strategy too.
  • #14
    GW wouldn't have to be midrange. Voice of resurgence, call of the conclave, selesnya charm, Loxodon smiter. They're all 3 or less mana and white other than conclave's token. You can even cap off at 4 with advent of the wurm and have more power. adding G also adds rancor to make your weenies more powerful. Mono white in a multi colored block is just silly.
    "It's good to learn from your failures, but I prefer to learn from the failures of others."—Jace Beleren Cool

    http://www.jackthreads.com/invite/saren_esper

    Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.

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  • #15
    They're all 3 or less mana

    Every deck uses cheap cards, that isnt what decides if your deck is going to be midrange or not.
    Some cards fit well within a strategy that tries to end the game early, and some take longer to have an impact.
    playing a path to bravery on turn 3 for example, means that you aim to already have a lot of weenies out and be swinging.
    Playing a loxodon smiter on turn 3 does nothing to help your existing creatures get damage in, and since hes fat with a big butt, it means that your opponent will most likely not swing into him, so on turn 4 they will have even more blockers for your weenies.
    So both cards cost 3 mana, but one of them works well with a bunch of weenies, and the other doesnt, and wants to be in a slower deck to be used efficiently.

    Farseek and rampant growth are cards that cost 2 mana, yet they fit well in midrange decks, and would be useless in aggro decks. And so on.
  • #16
    Quote from Morimacil »
    Quote:

    They're all 3 or less mana

    Every deck uses cheap cards, that isnt what decides if your deck is going to be midrange or not.
    Some cards fit well within a strategy that tries to end the game early, and some take longer to have an impact.
    playing a path to bravery on turn 3 for example, means that you aim to already have a lot of weenies out and be swinging.
    Playing a loxodon smiter on turn 3 does nothing to help your existing creatures get damage in, and since hes fat with a big butt, it means that your opponent will most likely not swing into him, so on turn 4 they will have even more blockers for your weenies.
    So both cards cost 3 mana, but one of them works well with a bunch of weenies, and the other doesnt, and wants to be in a slower deck to be used efficiently.

    Farseek and rampant growth are cards that cost 2 mana, yet they fit well in midrange decks, and would be useless in aggro decks. And so on.

    .... noooo **** rampant growth and farseek wouldn't be good here, but swinging in with bigger creatures is going to make them chump block those and lose board presence. selesnya a aggro was one of the top decks before we got the shock lands to safely make 3 colored decks. I play aggro and I've successfully played white weenie many times. if you're holding back smiter to block you're playing aggro wrong.



    Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
    "It's good to learn from your failures, but I prefer to learn from the failures of others."—Jace Beleren Cool

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  • #17
    You need to make sure that your deck doesn't die to a single Electrickery, Loss, or Izzet Staticaster.

    I've been tweaking a W/B list with Cartel Aristocrat, Blood Artist, Skirsdag High Priest, and Xatrid Necromancer. You get to play great removal spells, you get lots of insurance against sweepers, and you have Cartel Aristocrat, a creature that does a great job in holding a Silver-Inlaid Dagger.

    I'm also going to highly recommend Celestial Flare for sideboards. It's brutal against Bant Hexproof.
    A Think Twice in hand is worth two in the grave.

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  • #18
    Quote from Backpack
    You should check out this article by Craig Wescoe.

    Shodai's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Main Deck:
    Boros Elite
    Champion of the Parish
    Fiend Hunter
    Fiendslayer Paladin
    Knight of Glory
    Precinct Captain
    Riders of Gavony
    Silverblade Paladin
    Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

    Brave the Elements
    Silver-Inlaid Dagger

    Mutavault
    20 Plains


    I think his inclusion of fiend hunters is important for the deck to be able to push through damage. They are much better than running 4 daggers/riders IMO. However, i think Imposing Sovereign can probably be in the mainboard over the knights.


    Now that's a deck. I completely agree with his assessment that Riders of Gavony is not worth playing mainboard as a four of. Also, I love Fiendslayer Paladin. That card almost makes me want to play white weeny!
    #FreeWildNacatl
  • #19
    I would like to see Xathrid and Odric. Seems like you would always have the 3 others needed and push through.
  • #20
    Mine is mostly white and all creatures. I need to make room for Brave the Elements, but I'm not sure what to cut without skewing the curve.

    Red Shadows's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    One Drops 12:
    4x Boros Elite
    4x Champion of the Parish
    4x War Falcon

    Two Drops 12:
    4x Imposing Sovereign
    4x Daring Skyjek
    2x Thalia, Guardian of Therben
    2x Prescint Captain

    Three Drops 10:
    4x Silverblade Paladin
    3x Xathrid Necromancer
    3x Frontline Medic

    Four Drops 4:
    2x Odric, Master Tactician
    2x Angel of Jubilation

    Land 22:
    4x Godless Shrine
    4x Isolated Chapel
    1x Vault of the Archangel
    2x Cavern of Souls
    7x Plains
    4x Mutavault



    I'm thinking that my 4 drops might get replaced, but I actually have a delicate curve right now.
    Last edited by Red Shadows: 7/17/2013 6:49:48 PM

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  • #21
    Backpack's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    4 Imposing Sovereign
    3 Banisher Priest
    4 Frontline Medic
    3 Precinct Captain
    4 Dryad Militant
    2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Doomed Traveler
    4 Champion of the Parish
    1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch

    4 Brave the Elements
    2 Oblivion Ring

    4 Mutavault
    18 Plains



    This deck just made top 8 in yesterdays SCG open.

    Compared to Wescoe's list (which needs a few changes in the board) this one just seems a lot weaker. No Fiendslayers in the main and no silverblades at all? I'm not really seeing the strength of the non-human dryad militant and frontline medic. What do you guys think?
  • #22
    FearThyKnife's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    4 champion of the parish
    4 war falcon
    3 thalia
    4 knight of glory
    2 precinct captain
    4 silverblade paladin
    3 fiend hunter
    4 lyev skyknight
    3 riders of gavony
    2 lavinia of the tenth

    4 brave the elements

    2 mutavault
    2 cavern of souls
    1 moorland haunt
    4 hallowed fountain
    4 glacial fortress
    1 azorious giildgate
    9 plains



    Too tired to post a description, will do tomorrow. I will say that I love this deck and its been doing so amazing for me. Don't underestimate detain or moorland haunt. I have never been sad to slam down a Lavinia against an opposing aggro deck with a field full of creatures. So far this deck has tested amazing against zombies, naya aggro, and elf ramp. Sideboard can be posted if curious. Having detention sphere available over oblivion ring is great. And on a sidenote, I still think fiend hunter is better than banished priest for its bigger ass to block with.
  • #23
    This is what I'm planning on running this Friday.

    I'm trying out Path of Bravery as an anthem, but I'm nervous about it underperforming. I suspect that it will be decent to good against the slower control lists and be pretty good in racing situations against aggressive beatdown decks. I imagine that it'll be just plain bad against Jund for the most part.

    I also wonder if I'm playing the wrong number of Doomed Traveler's, and if it would just be better to play 2 Militants instead.

    I probably should just play 4 Fiendslayers in the main as well, but I don't really know what I'd cut for that fourth copy. Precinct Captain looks like the most likely target.

    I fully expect this deck to change by about 4-5 cards within the next 2 weeks. That's what I love most about White Weenie- the ability to adapt to metas/your opponents deck by changing the overall speed of the creatures in your deck.

    Names's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures
    One Drops
    4 Champion of the Parish
    4 Dryad Militant
    2 Doomed Traveler

    Two Drops
    4 Imposing Sovereign
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    3 Precinct Captain

    Three Drops
    3 Frontline Medic
    3 Banisher Priest
    3 Fiendslayer Paladin

    Spells
    4 Brave the Elements
    3 Path of Bravery
    2 Oblivion Ring

    Lands
    18 Plains
    4 Mutavault

  • #24
    Quote from Names
    This is what I'm planning on running this Friday.

    I'm trying out Path of Bravery as an anthem, but I'm nervous about it underperforming. I suspect that it will be decent to good against the slower control lists and be pretty good in racing situations against aggressive beatdown decks. I imagine that it'll be just plain bad against Jund for the most part.

    I also wonder if I'm playing the wrong number of Doomed Traveler's, and if it would just be better to play 2 Militants instead.

    I probably should just play 4 Fiendslayers in the main as well, but I don't really know what I'd cut for that fourth copy. Precinct Captain looks like the most likely target.

    I fully expect this deck to change by about 4-5 cards within the next 2 weeks. That's what I love most about White Weenie- the ability to adapt to metas/your opponents deck by changing the overall speed of the creatures in your deck.

    Vispilia's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures
    One Drops
    4 Champion of the Parish
    4 Dryad Militant
    2 Doomed Traveler

    Two Drops
    4 Imposing Sovereign
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    3 Precinct Captain

    Three Drops
    3 Frontline Medic
    3 Banisher Priest
    3 Fiendslayer Paladin

    Spells
    4 Brave the Elements
    3 Path of Bravery
    2 Oblivion Ring

    Lands
    18 Plains
    4 Mutavault



    What's your reason for running doomed traveler over Boros Elite?
  • #25
    Against control decks, Path of Bravery is just an Anthem.

    Against aggro decks, Path of Bravery is mediocre lifegain if you're attacking. Doesn't do anything when you're on the defensive.

    I'd cut them for +1 Paladin and +2 Ajani.
    burn in hell jace2 Dance

    Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):

    21: 28.9%
    22: 27.5%
    23: 26.3%
    24: 25.5%
    25: 25.1%
    26: 25.3%
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