Will definitely see play if just as a 3 cost backup to Geist. The ability is only slightly relevant. It doesn't protect you from edict effects, which are the only black instants you care about, and basically just makes your opponents main phase their draw spells.
Granted I don't actually play this deck so I suppose what I say should be taken with a grain of salt but I see no real reason why this shouldn't replace Loxodon Smiter MB. In a vacuum it's decent but in this deck is just plain good. Anything that boosts the consistency of the deck I imagine would be very much appreciated.
So far the only m14 card that I'm interested in for this deck.
After M14 but prior to Theros I'm thinking it'll have to be something like:
- Rancor
+ Abundant Growth (due to loss of checklands)
And then also
+ Witchstalker
with Witchstalker taking the place of the flex creature that nobody can agree on.
Having 3 viable hexproofs has been the dream since day 1 and it will change some of my assumptions. I think that having 12 hexproofs and having Abundant Growth back in the deck will make Gift of Orzhova a significantly better card. Replace Spectral Flight with GoO and we've still got flight but more importantly we've got 8 sources of lifelink in the main.
Of course things could get all crazy between here and there and it still doesn't give us a clear solution for the loss of our innistrad cards but we can't be worrying about that until we get there. The good news is that so far there's no need to play blue at all once innistrad rotates - nothing good for us has been spoiled in blue as of yet - so we could go pure WG if we get any viable in-color hexproof from Theros or we could conceivably pick up a different third color.
So far the only m14 card that I'm interested in for this deck.
After M14 but prior to Theros I'm thinking it'll have to be something like:
- Rancor
+ Abundant Growth (due to loss of checklands)
And then also
+ Witchstalker
with Witchstalker taking the place of the flex creature that nobody can agree on.
Having 3 viable hexproofs has been the dream since day 1 and it will change some of my assumptions. I think that having 12 hexproofs and having Abundant Growth back in the deck will make Gift of Orzhova a significantly better card. Replace Spectral Flight with GoO and we've still got flight but more importantly we've got 8 sources of lifelink in the main.
Of course things could get all crazy between here and there and it still doesn't give us a clear solution for the loss of our innistrad cards but we can't be worrying about that until we get there. The good news is that so far there's no need to play blue at all once innistrad rotates - nothing good for us has been spoiled in blue as of yet - so we could go pure WG if we get any viable in-color hexproof from Theros or we could conceivably pick up a different third color.
Don't the checklands not leave until Theros is legal?
Also, Gladecover Scout is apparently in M14 which probably takes the place of Abacyn's Pilgrim and puts this deck straight over the top.
Btw I don't think we're supposed to discuss spoiled cards until the mods say its okay.
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Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
Yeah no doubt. Gladecover and witchstalker have made this deck viable for at least another year provided that they don't print some kind of a ridiculously useful hexproof hoser of some sort.
It also allows the base of the deck to narrow to gw if desired. Then you can go junk or naya easily. Post rotation it will depend on the mana in theros but it seems that the concept is still trending up!
Slightly off topic but I really don't think this deck has legs post-rotation. Stalker and Geist of Saint Traft are just way too important to the strategy and Gladecover and Witchstalker don't really make up for their loss. For a small window of a few glorious months, however, this deck goes Super Saiyan in my opinion.
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Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
A more interesting question is do you keep the Pilgrim as your mana Dork to help support Geist or move to Elves in order to better support this and Strangleroot.
The second ability is about as relevant as Voice's ability which just changes how your opponents play and occasionally gives you free wins if they misplay. The hexproof and mana efficient stats are definitely the big part.
A more interesting question is do you keep the Pilgrim as your mana Dork to help support Geist or move to Elves in order to better support this and Strangleroot.
The second ability is about as relevant as Voice's ability which just changes how your opponents play and occasionally gives you free wins if they misplay. The hexproof and mana efficient stats are definitely the big part.
Id rather play a T2/3 Geist than a T2/3 Witchstalker 90% of the time (the remaining 10% being vs. Blitz decks)
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Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
All i have to say is that there's a reason the modern version is called bogle.dec and not stalker.dec.
The presence of gladecover will significantly improve our first turn and i think that is valuable enough to negate some of the disadvantages of witchstalker when compared to gost.
All i have to say is that there's a reason the modern version is called bogle.dec and not stalker.dec.
The presence of gladecover will significantly improve our first turn and i think that is valuable enough to negate some of the disadvantages of witchstalker when compared to gost.
With the inevitable loss of Spectral Flight and GOST I think the deck has to lean rather heavily on Armadillo Cloak and the Orzhov Enchantment. Sylesnea Aura's seems to have a bright future though.
However I think that forcing the GoST version for now simply steals more wins by being a less fair deck when he hits on time. However consistency might be relevant enough to change that.
The immediate future is just a loss of Allied checklands and Rancor. Losing rancor sucks.
Edit: Disregard the parts of this where I didn't realize that we can still use M13 checklands until Innistrad rotates out. I've been corrected.
As I see it the options to replace Rancor are as follows:
1. Curiosity. Admittedly an underperforming card in past builds but the addition of Gladecover might actually increase our chances of landing a hit with it - at least until the meta adapts.
2. Divine Favor or Call to Serve - I've tried both of these and I never felt good about them. I don't think these are the answer. The mana cost is too darn high! I would feel much better about Holy Strength if it were legal. Too bad.
3. Abundant Growth - might be necessary due to the loss of so many checklands. A solid choice in any event.
4. Gift of Orzhova - This is the most interesting choice but it would also make us extremely top-heavy and possibly necessitate minor changes to the way we develop our mana base. (for example more dorks, etc...)
Of course we don't really need 16 hexproof creatures. I think that anywhere from 10-14 is a pretty good number. We can ignore Witchstalker until GoST rotates out and we may be able to reduce the Invisible Stalker count. Perhaps it'll work out something like this:
4 Gladecover Scout
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Invisible Stalker
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Abundant Growth
4 Spectral Flight
4 Unflinching Courage
2 Gift of Orzhova
Update:
After playing around with it for a while I'm very troubled by the lost checklands. It's not good. Even with abundant growth and extra mana dorks I was having mana issues.
Further Update:
Then I tried a pure Green and White version using Gladecover, Witchstalker, and Fiendslayer Paladin accompanied by Pilgrims and Voice of Resurgence. Abundant Growth, Ethereal Armor, Gift of Orzhova and Unflinching Courage for the auras. This one actually felt really good. I am in love with Gladecover Scout in my opening hand. Even a 1 land hand can be played sometimes if it happens to be Temple Garden.
Then I tried a pure Green and White version using Gladecover, Witchstalker, and Fiendslayer Paladin accompanied by Pilgrims and Voice of Resurgence. Abundant Growth, Ethereal Armor, Gift of Orzhova and Unflinching Courage for the auras. This one actually felt really good. I am in love with Gladecover Scout in my opening hand. Even a 1 land hand can be played sometimes if it happens to be Temple Garden.
this is interesting to me as an aristocrats player.
the creature that gives me the absolute most trouble is invisible stalker; geist is also hard to deal with, but only if he gets flying. (i run 4 knight of infamy main, plus lingering souls gives me great air-blockers if nothing else.)
spectral flight isn't particularly good against me, but it's pretty bomb against most decks. is the manabase really that shaky overall that you're willing to drop blue entirely?
also, could potentially running guildgates help, or do you guys really need that mana untapped early?
posting here is kinda like fraternizing with the enemy for me, considering how much i despise the deck you guys play XD.
I actually run 3 paraselene in the board and will soon be running 3 war priest of thune as well...
Its not that I don't think this deck can still exist in Theros, it's just I don't see it being Tier 1 anymore. If anything I'd go Uril Auras, as BTE into Madcap Skills on T2 is exactly what this deck wants to be doing, and Boros Charm gives this deck a lot of explosiveness.
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Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
The immediate future is just a loss of Allied checklands and Rancor. Losing rancor sucks.
As I see it the options to replace Rancor are as follows:
1. Curiosity. Admittedly an underperforming card in past builds but the addition of Gladecover might actually increase our chances of landing a hit with it - at least until the meta adapts.
2. Divine Favor or Call to Serve - I've tried both of these and I never felt good about them. I don't think these are the answer. The mana cost is too darn high! I would feel much better about Holy Strength if it were legal. Too bad.
3. Abundant Growth - might be necessary due to the loss of so many checklands. A solid choice in any event.
4. Gift of Orzhova - This is the most interesting choice but it would also make us extremely top-heavy and possibly necessitate minor changes to the way we develop our mana base. (for example more dorks, etc...)
Of course we don't really need 16 hexproof creatures. I think that anywhere from 10-14 is a pretty good number. We can ignore Witchstalker until GoST rotates out and we may be able to reduce the Invisible Stalker count. Perhaps it'll work out something like this:
4 Gladecover Scout
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Invisible Stalker
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Abundant Growth
4 Spectral Flight
4 Unflinching Courage
2 Gift of Orzhova
Update:
After playing around with it for a while I'm very troubled by the lost checklands. It's not good. Even with abundant growth and extra mana dorks I was having mana issues.
Further Update:
Then I tried a pure Green and White version using Gladecover, Witchstalker, and Fiendslayer Paladin accompanied by Pilgrims and Voice of Resurgence. Abundant Growth, Ethereal Armor, Gift of Orzhova and Unflinching Courage for the auras. This one actually felt really good. I am in love with Gladecover Scout in my opening hand. Even a 1 land hand can be played sometimes if it happens to be Temple Garden.
What the hell format are you talking about? M13 doesn't rotate until the same time as Inn Block.
I was shocked at how hard it was to get the mana to work. It is worse than I expected.
I've been playtesting the gw version on the other hand and it is good. There is no question it is good. You use Fiendslayer Paladin as a third pseudo-hexproof creature and you load up on Gift of Orzhova and Unflinching Courage.
The lifegain capability is ridiculous and the deck is a lot more consistent than I'm used to. You can also easily use Ajani to provide additional sources of doublestrike and flying.
You do of course make certain matchups tougher. Aristocrats is one of the matchups where you really wanted to see an Invisible Stalker.
Its not that I don't think this deck can still exist in Theros, it's just I don't see it being Tier 1 anymore. If anything I'd go Uril Auras, as BTE into Madcap Skills on T2 is exactly what this deck wants to be doing, and Boros Charm gives this deck a lot of explosiveness.
What the hell format are you talking about? M13 doesn't rotate until the same time as Inn Block.
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Someone gave me the wrong info. I was told that M13 isn't usable after M14 comes out but I can see that this was not correct.
Well I guess it's safe to disregard half of what I was just posting. Now I look ridiculous. But on the other hand I was handicapping myself and it was still good. YEAH!
At Juju - I do think that Red is worth looking into. I've wanted to have Boros Charm (among other things) for months.
Witchstalker is a fine 3 drop and gives the deck more versatility and resilience. I think it's important to still run dorks. Especially in the UWR match, or even esper, a turn 2 Geist on the draw allows you to have mana up for a Rootborn when they verdict, and it helps you race against aggro.
I thought long and hard about Trollhide, but it's essentially a 5 mana spell. It still may make the list, regeneration seems incredibly valuable for us, but I don't know that it beats out Flight.
Gladecover is obviously amazing.
I've been a proponent of Silverblade for a couple of months, but I think it'll be even harder if we're running Witchstalker, and it might be crowding the 3 spot. The paladin is way more aggressive, but such an easy target, if we have a more stable option, I think that's where I want to be.
This is what I tried to tell you on my first post in this thread...
As for post-M14 Bant Hexproof, maybe the answer is to keep 3 Avacyn's Pilgrims and fill the contested Sroot/Smiter/Ace slots with Gladecover Scout and Witchstalker. This gives us 16 Hexproof creatures as well as 7-8 one-drops, while retaining the ability to go T2 GoST/Witchstalker.
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Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
Give me the benefit of the doubt. Try it without the blue.
Imagine a hypothetical creature + gift of orzhova draw. Nothing else of consequence aside from having enough lands to cast everything. Weak draw, but is it keepable?
If geist of saint traft - you're going to have a flying 3/3 with lifelink that creates angel tokens.
If witchstalker - a flying 4/4 with lifelink that punishes anyone who wants to use abrupt decay or golgari charm.
If fiendslayer paladin - a flying 3/3 with lifelink and first strike.
The angel token is a lovely thing but compare the mana and the survivability of the creatures. Witchstalker will be a 4/4 even if they remove the aura. Fiendslayer has first strike. The GoST requires blue mana in addition to the double white of GoO. It also conflicts with the deck's preference for green mana. We want to have a first turn green source so that we can cast pilgrim, right?
The need for three colors also makes it difficult to play cards like ajani, goo, strangleroot and the like. You can play those cards alongside GoST but i think we've all felt restricted by the mana at one time or another.
I think the main thing that i'd like to point out is that any of these creatures is going to have good presence on turn 4. Geist has better presence, granted, but witchstalker enchanted with GoO is still a very strong play.
Are you advocating cutting GoST BEFORE he rotates out with Theros? Because if so, I can't agree with that line.
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Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
I'm only advocating that we all playtest without gost before we decide whether the deck works without him.
I've been impressed enough that i'm going to continue with it for at least a little while. I think that the small loss of firepower is more than offset by the fact that you don't have to mulligan as often.
He's suggesting to go GW for consistency's sake, which is why you'd ever go down from 3 to 2 colors. Yes, you're going to lose a bit of power, but the question is worth asking, and it's "Is it worth it?"
People always go between the two sides of the Power vs. Consistency debate. This deck has been heavily on one side for a while... and there may be more (better) tools to attempt the other.
Testing is the correct way to answer this.
Dismissing a potentially valid idea without testing it is shortsighted and an easy way to get next-leveled.
if you're going GW selesnya aggro you might as well be running Shuuhei Nakamura's list. It's much more aggressive than trying to go GW hexproof, which does not offer the explosive t2 Geist t3 pants draws.
I appreciate the explanation bearsman. That is exactly what i was thinking.
I bet many of you weren't around when there were a few members advocating for a uw auras deck instead of bant. I argued on the side of bant because of rancor but there was merit to the argument then and i think that a similar argument has even more merit now because of the cards that are now available to us.
I'm experimenting a lot right now. I have had junk and naya versions working as well. So far selesnya and bant are my favorites, but bant is looking like a no-go after rotation.
3/3
Hexproof
Whenever an opponent casts a blue or black spell during your turn, put a +1/+1 counter on Witchstalker.
New 4 of or terrible?
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After M14 but prior to Theros I'm thinking it'll have to be something like:
- Rancor
+ Abundant Growth (due to loss of checklands)
And then also
+ Witchstalker
with Witchstalker taking the place of the flex creature that nobody can agree on.
Having 3 viable hexproofs has been the dream since day 1 and it will change some of my assumptions. I think that having 12 hexproofs and having Abundant Growth back in the deck will make Gift of Orzhova a significantly better card. Replace Spectral Flight with GoO and we've still got flight but more importantly we've got 8 sources of lifelink in the main.
Of course things could get all crazy between here and there and it still doesn't give us a clear solution for the loss of our innistrad cards but we can't be worrying about that until we get there. The good news is that so far there's no need to play blue at all once innistrad rotates - nothing good for us has been spoiled in blue as of yet - so we could go pure WG if we get any viable in-color hexproof from Theros or we could conceivably pick up a different third color.
Don't the checklands not leave until Theros is legal?
Also, Gladecover Scout is apparently in M14 which probably takes the place of Abacyn's Pilgrim and puts this deck straight over the top.
Btw I don't think we're supposed to discuss spoiled cards until the mods say its okay.
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It also allows the base of the deck to narrow to gw if desired. Then you can go junk or naya easily. Post rotation it will depend on the mana in theros but it seems that the concept is still trending up!
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The second ability is about as relevant as Voice's ability which just changes how your opponents play and occasionally gives you free wins if they misplay. The hexproof and mana efficient stats are definitely the big part.
Id rather play a T2/3 Geist than a T2/3 Witchstalker 90% of the time (the remaining 10% being vs. Blitz decks)
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The presence of gladecover will significantly improve our first turn and i think that is valuable enough to negate some of the disadvantages of witchstalker when compared to gost.
With the inevitable loss of Spectral Flight and GOST I think the deck has to lean rather heavily on Armadillo Cloak and the Orzhov Enchantment. Sylesnea Aura's seems to have a bright future though.
However I think that forcing the GoST version for now simply steals more wins by being a less fair deck when he hits on time. However consistency might be relevant enough to change that.
The immediate future is just a loss of Allied checklands and Rancor. Losing rancor sucks.Edit: Disregard the parts of this where I didn't realize that we can still use M13 checklands until Innistrad rotates out. I've been corrected.
As I see it the options to replace Rancor are as follows:
1. Curiosity. Admittedly an underperforming card in past builds but the addition of Gladecover might actually increase our chances of landing a hit with it - at least until the meta adapts.
2. Divine Favor or Call to Serve - I've tried both of these and I never felt good about them. I don't think these are the answer. The mana cost is too darn high! I would feel much better about Holy Strength if it were legal. Too bad.
3. Abundant Growth - might be necessary due to the loss of so many checklands. A solid choice in any event.
4. Gift of Orzhova - This is the most interesting choice but it would also make us extremely top-heavy and possibly necessitate minor changes to the way we develop our mana base. (for example more dorks, etc...)
Of course we don't really need 16 hexproof creatures. I think that anywhere from 10-14 is a pretty good number. We can ignore Witchstalker until GoST rotates out and we may be able to reduce the Invisible Stalker count. Perhaps it'll work out something like this:
4 Gladecover Scout
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Invisible Stalker
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Abundant Growth
4 Spectral Flight
4 Unflinching Courage
2 Gift of Orzhova
Update:
After playing around with it for a while I'm very troubled by the lost checklands. It's not good. Even with abundant growth and extra mana dorks I was having mana issues.
Further Update:
Then I tried a pure Green and White version using Gladecover, Witchstalker, and Fiendslayer Paladin accompanied by Pilgrims and Voice of Resurgence. Abundant Growth, Ethereal Armor, Gift of Orzhova and Unflinching Courage for the auras. This one actually felt really good. I am in love with Gladecover Scout in my opening hand. Even a 1 land hand can be played sometimes if it happens to be Temple Garden.
this is interesting to me as an aristocrats player.
the creature that gives me the absolute most trouble is invisible stalker; geist is also hard to deal with, but only if he gets flying. (i run 4 knight of infamy main, plus lingering souls gives me great air-blockers if nothing else.)
spectral flight isn't particularly good against me, but it's pretty bomb against most decks. is the manabase really that shaky overall that you're willing to drop blue entirely?
also, could potentially running guildgates help, or do you guys really need that mana untapped early?
posting here is kinda like fraternizing with the enemy for me, considering how much i despise the deck you guys play XD.
I actually run 3 paraselene in the board and will soon be running 3 war priest of thune as well...
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What the hell format are you talking about? M13 doesn't rotate until the same time as Inn Block.
I've been playtesting the gw version on the other hand and it is good. There is no question it is good. You use Fiendslayer Paladin as a third pseudo-hexproof creature and you load up on Gift of Orzhova and Unflinching Courage.
The lifegain capability is ridiculous and the deck is a lot more consistent than I'm used to. You can also easily use Ajani to provide additional sources of doublestrike and flying.
You do of course make certain matchups tougher. Aristocrats is one of the matchups where you really wanted to see an Invisible Stalker.
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Someone gave me the wrong info. I was told that M13 isn't usable after M14 comes out but I can see that this was not correct.
Well I guess it's safe to disregard half of what I was just posting. Now I look ridiculous. But on the other hand I was handicapping myself and it was still good. YEAH!
At Juju - I do think that Red is worth looking into. I've wanted to have Boros Charm (among other things) for months.
2x Elvish Mystic
4x Gladecover Scout
4x Invisible Stalker
4x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Witchstalker
4x Ethereal Armor
4x Rancor
4x Spectral Flight
4x Unflinching Courage
4x Breeding Pool
2x Forest
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Hinterland Harbor
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Temple Garden
3x Fog
2x Ground Seal
2x Nearheath Pilgrim
2x Nevermore
2x Rootborn Defenses
4x Voice of Resurgence
Witchstalker is a fine 3 drop and gives the deck more versatility and resilience. I think it's important to still run dorks. Especially in the UWR match, or even esper, a turn 2 Geist on the draw allows you to have mana up for a Rootborn when they verdict, and it helps you race against aggro.
I thought long and hard about Trollhide, but it's essentially a 5 mana spell. It still may make the list, regeneration seems incredibly valuable for us, but I don't know that it beats out Flight.
Gladecover is obviously amazing.
I've been a proponent of Silverblade for a couple of months, but I think it'll be even harder if we're running Witchstalker, and it might be crowding the 3 spot. The paladin is way more aggressive, but such an easy target, if we have a more stable option, I think that's where I want to be.
This is what I tried to tell you on my first post in this thread...
As for post-M14 Bant Hexproof, maybe the answer is to keep 3 Avacyn's Pilgrims and fill the contested Sroot/Smiter/Ace slots with Gladecover Scout and Witchstalker. This gives us 16 Hexproof creatures as well as 7-8 one-drops, while retaining the ability to go T2 GoST/Witchstalker.
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Imagine a hypothetical creature + gift of orzhova draw. Nothing else of consequence aside from having enough lands to cast everything. Weak draw, but is it keepable?
If geist of saint traft - you're going to have a flying 3/3 with lifelink that creates angel tokens.
If witchstalker - a flying 4/4 with lifelink that punishes anyone who wants to use abrupt decay or golgari charm.
If fiendslayer paladin - a flying 3/3 with lifelink and first strike.
The angel token is a lovely thing but compare the mana and the survivability of the creatures. Witchstalker will be a 4/4 even if they remove the aura. Fiendslayer has first strike. The GoST requires blue mana in addition to the double white of GoO. It also conflicts with the deck's preference for green mana. We want to have a first turn green source so that we can cast pilgrim, right?
The need for three colors also makes it difficult to play cards like ajani, goo, strangleroot and the like. You can play those cards alongside GoST but i think we've all felt restricted by the mana at one time or another.
I think the main thing that i'd like to point out is that any of these creatures is going to have good presence on turn 4. Geist has better presence, granted, but witchstalker enchanted with GoO is still a very strong play.
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I've been impressed enough that i'm going to continue with it for at least a little while. I think that the small loss of firepower is more than offset by the fact that you don't have to mulligan as often.
People always go between the two sides of the Power vs. Consistency debate. This deck has been heavily on one side for a while... and there may be more (better) tools to attempt the other.
Testing is the correct way to answer this.
Dismissing a potentially valid idea without testing it is shortsighted and an easy way to get next-leveled.
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for reference: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/feature-article-soulbound-or-exalted-or-both-english-and-japanese/
I bet many of you weren't around when there were a few members advocating for a uw auras deck instead of bant. I argued on the side of bant because of rancor but there was merit to the argument then and i think that a similar argument has even more merit now because of the cards that are now available to us.
I'm experimenting a lot right now. I have had junk and naya versions working as well. So far selesnya and bant are my favorites, but bant is looking like a no-go after rotation.