Creatures make up a pretty sizable portion of MTG. Why does every control player think creatures are boring? Pretty sure most Gruul Aggro lists run burn/removal and Ghor-Clan Rampager. Seems interactive to me. When did people start deciding that they were "high skill players" just because they play counterspells?
Here's what's boring to me. Control vs Control... Game 1 lasts 45 minutes. Game 2 results in whoever won Game 1 pretending to think deeply about what he/she is doing until the match time runs out.
Creatures, Sideboards, Combat Tricks, Mulligans... these are all part of the game. Seems like you're playing the wrong game...
Players who think they're good at magic, but are actually just ok, often like control because it's easy to feel clever playing control. When half your deck is answers, of course you always have an answer.
Players who are actually good know that playing red deck wins is just as, if not more, skill intensive than any draw-go variant.
Players who are actually good know that playing red deck wins is just as, if not more, skill intensive than any draw-go variant.
I don't know about RDW being skill intensive... but it's true that draw-go is equally unimpressive. There are both complicated control decks and complicated aggro decks that require a ton of foresight and meta-knowledge to pilot properly.
I don't play it, but stuff like the Aristocrats deck is VERY difficult to play, even though it's aggro. There is an enourmous amount of math that goes into the first 5 turns or so and it's very easy to make horrible, horrible, game ending misplays.
I actually avoid stuff like that because i find it too stressful and time consuming to practice.
IMO:
Decks that require next to no skill include stuff like Naya Blitz, RDW and Poison/Bantchant aggro... as well as drownyard control, pillow forts and, to a lesser extent, Resto/Thrag flash decks.
Decks that require a great deal of skill include stuff like Aristocrats, UWR Control variants, Junk Frites and any combo deck that has more than one way to go off.
^And these are all just from standard. In other formats there are many other examples from both sides and I've found the split of aggro/control to be relatively even.
When did people start deciding that they were "high skill players" just because they play counterspells?
There is a perception that creature decks, just "play guys and turn them sideways" for five turns to win while permission decks have to make a ton of decisions over a ridiculously long time period.
In practice, though, I find that spell-based control decks are much easier to pilot than creature-based aggro decks. You just stall and cantrip until you are forced to play a sweeper, then you use the time gained to play a big draw spell. After a while you'll hopefully run the other guy out of resources and be able to play a Planeswalker or fatty and win. No need to calculate much combat math, no need to think about what to attack with and what to leave back as blockers, no need to worry about over-extending, and the cheap card drawing even makes mulligans less necessary.
The real challenge with spell-based control is designing the list and tweaking it. There are a lot of variables to take into account and it's hard to get just the right mix of cards to make the deck run smoothly. Once the decklist is final actually using it is simple. Creature decks are the opposite. They are easy to build, but tough to play.
The most glorious, entertaining games of magic that I've enjoyed watching have all been control mirrors, combo mirrors, or midrange vs control. Real magic.
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If there wasn't a timer, control decks wouldn't be as obnoxious. I mean when they sphinx for 7 then take 20 more turns to win, that is obnoxious. Then you don't even have time to finish the second game.
I've played most types of decks except control, and I'd say there aren't really decks that you simply pick up and play. A lot of the skill isn't exactly playing your cards right, but making your opponent play their cards poorly.
Anyway, I don't think there's a specific card i dread. Maybe Kessig Wolf Run. Have seen that card do nasty things before.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
I think it's safe to say Magic as a whole is a complex game and no matter what type of deck you're playing...you're making critical decisions each and every game.
Aggro, Control and Combo players alike have to pinpoint when to play certain creatures/spells...how to attack/block...what to remove and when...
There are so many decisions to make during each game of Magic--unless you lose to Turn 2 Infect or something... --that I think most players who play the game exhibit some skill.
Look at "Huey" Jensen recently...If I remember correctly, he's finished Top 8 3 times recently w/ Elves, Jund and UWR...very different decks...but he plays the game w skill and has success with what he plays.
Certain Control players need to give Aggro players some more credit when it comes to skilled play and vice versa (and I say this w/ a deep hatred for Burning Tree decks)...
I don't understand why folks feel the need to belittle other players just because they don't play the archetype they prefer.
I don't understand why folks feel the need to belittle other players just because they don't play the archetype they prefer.
Because if I win, the win was due to play skill. If I lost, you just got lucky and I got unlucky.
Huey Jensen is the man. Even watching a Stream, you can tell that he's so much better than his opponents.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
For me, the most Groan-worthy card is Ghor-Clan Rampager. I've seen so many games completly sniped because they held one or two in their hands and their opponent just didn't have an answer for it.
More annoying yet is when you see players who are trying to do mental math and are constantly thinking "Well I know, KNOW, they have at least one, soooo...." and then it just drags on. And usually, 14 out of 15 times, that player does not have the Rampager, so they just sit there and smile goofily.
My favorite part about this thread is how very few non-creature spells have been named. Seriously hilarious.
I'd have to choose Geist of Saint Traft.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Creatures make up a pretty sizable portion of MTG. Why does every control player think creatures are boring? Pretty sure most Gruul Aggro lists run burn/removal and Ghor-Clan Rampager. Seems interactive to me. When did people start deciding that they were "high skill players" just because they play counterspells?
Here's what's boring to me. Control vs Control... Game 1 lasts 45 minutes. Game 2 results in whoever won Game 1 pretending to think deeply about what he/she is doing until the match time runs out.
Creatures, Sideboards, Combat Tricks, Mulligans... these are all part of the game. Seems like you're playing the wrong game...
They were playing the right game 10+ years ago. Sure onslaught was creature oriented but spells hadn't been replaced with cards like Value-tusk and destroy creature spells were much less powerful. Instead of pure creature decks people ran cards like plow under. These days it would only see play if it was attached to a 2/2 body.
on topic: Burning-tree emissary. Why on earth did anyone think it was a good idea to print a card that not only made blitz strategies faster but also more consistent. Blitz decks are as bad as 2-card-combo decks.
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Aetherling, Supreme Verdict, Ethereal Armor and Lingering Souls.
Aetherling is the only one of the 3 that I genuinely have issues with. I feel it is just a piss poor excuse for card design to me, especially since it was printed after they acknowledged that Hexproof+Unblockable was way too good. Sure, it's not actual hexproof and gets beaten by Pithing Needle, but I'd say it's slightly better overall.
Supreme is Supreme and anyone who runs creature based decks knows how annoying it is. I've seen quite a large number of games against esper decks where I've run into a Snapped Supreme JUST to kill one creature.
Ethereal Armor is the give away for Bant Pants. A couple of Mill decks in my area run Invis Stalkers as a secondary wincon (Trepanation Blade), and Geist is in everything with UW, but Ethereal Armor is in a very unique spot. Also, who decided to give White an extremely undercosted Green effect, then make it BETTER?
Finally - Lingering Souls. I main Olivia in a lot of decks, so it's not like it's a scary card, but I'm pretty sure it's the single most played spell in my LGS, it just tells me that I'm gonna have to take a nap, and at some point, probably doom blade a token.
Some of the most intense and cerebral games of magic I have ever played came from RDW vs. RDW, all the way from "Kitchen table" to Modern to Standard.
Do you drop that Bolt right now, or wait for that double bolt to clear the board and pump your kiln fiend up to 7/2? Do you bother just going for the face or a straight race? Do you play your damage as control? Do you flood the board with Goblin Guides and such?
Do you throw down that Stonewright into an Ash Zealot and swing for two turns using up your mana on turn 3? Or do you put that Boros Reckoner down? Do you spend 3 for that Flames of the Firebrand to clear the board?
Red Deck Wins is much more complicated than people think. Sure, straight suicide aggro is a one trick pony, but just playing suicide aggro against EVERY deck is a poor demonstration of skill and understanding of the game.
At the current moment this card makes me groan. I have a friend who built an esper control deck around this...needless to say when it comes down and he has Seraph Sanctuary down it gets rather annoying.
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“We are all geniuses up to the age of ten.” - Aldous Huxley
I think it is just the deck I am playing now, but Blood Baron of Vizkopa drives me nuts. Since I am playing a Junk deck, the only way I have to deal with him is a pumped up Scooze or edict.
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Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
Some of the most intense and cerebral games of magic I have ever played came from RDW vs. RDW, all the way from "Kitchen table" to Modern to Standard.
Do you drop that Bolt right now, or wait for that double bolt to clear the board and pump your kiln fiend up to 7/2? Do you bother just going for the face or a straight race? Do you play your damage as control? Do you flood the board with Goblin Guides and such?
Do you throw down that Stonewright into an Ash Zealot and swing for two turns using up your mana on turn 3? Or do you put that Boros Reckoner down? Do you spend 3 for that Flames of the Firebrand to clear the board?
Red Deck Wins is much more complicated than people think. Sure, straight suicide aggro is a one trick pony, but just playing suicide aggro against EVERY deck is a poor demonstration of skill and understanding of the game.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa...... ok thanks, i needed that. So, youre saying that every once in a while, in mirror matches, a RDW has to actually THINK? What a crazy concept making decisions is in this card game. I'm so glad there are so many smart RDW players out there to boost the IQ level of the community.
For your info, almost every other deck out there has to think ad make decisions every turn in every game. Thats why most of us find this game fun. Learning to masterfully pilot a deck can be tough. RDW is the internet trolls of the community. Every community needs the trolls, but that doesnt make them any less annoying and cheesy.
So no, dont try and convince yourself you are some strategic master by playing a crap easy deck like RDW.
Players who think they're good at magic, but are actually just ok, often like control because it's easy to feel clever playing control. When half your deck is answers, of course you always have an answer.
Players who are actually good know that playing red deck wins is just as, if not more, skill intensive than any draw-go variant.
I don't know about RDW being skill intensive... but it's true that draw-go is equally unimpressive. There are both complicated control decks and complicated aggro decks that require a ton of foresight and meta-knowledge to pilot properly.
I don't play it, but stuff like the Aristocrats deck is VERY difficult to play, even though it's aggro. There is an enourmous amount of math that goes into the first 5 turns or so and it's very easy to make horrible, horrible, game ending misplays.
I actually avoid stuff like that because i find it too stressful and time consuming to practice.
IMO:
Decks that require next to no skill include stuff like Naya Blitz, RDW and Poison/Bantchant aggro... as well as drownyard control, pillow forts and, to a lesser extent, Resto/Thrag flash decks.
Decks that require a great deal of skill include stuff like Aristocrats, UWR Control variants, Junk Frites and any combo deck that has more than one way to go off.
^And these are all just from standard. In other formats there are many other examples from both sides and I've found the split of aggro/control to be relatively even.
There is a perception that creature decks, just "play guys and turn them sideways" for five turns to win while permission decks have to make a ton of decisions over a ridiculously long time period.
In practice, though, I find that spell-based control decks are much easier to pilot than creature-based aggro decks. You just stall and cantrip until you are forced to play a sweeper, then you use the time gained to play a big draw spell. After a while you'll hopefully run the other guy out of resources and be able to play a Planeswalker or fatty and win. No need to calculate much combat math, no need to think about what to attack with and what to leave back as blockers, no need to worry about over-extending, and the cheap card drawing even makes mulligans less necessary.
The real challenge with spell-based control is designing the list and tweaking it. There are a lot of variables to take into account and it's hard to get just the right mix of cards to make the deck run smoothly. Once the decklist is final actually using it is simple. Creature decks are the opposite. They are easy to build, but tough to play.
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
I've played most types of decks except control, and I'd say there aren't really decks that you simply pick up and play. A lot of the skill isn't exactly playing your cards right, but making your opponent play their cards poorly.
Anyway, I don't think there's a specific card i dread. Maybe Kessig Wolf Run. Have seen that card do nasty things before.
The card would have been so much more flavorful and *BETTER* if it was "This creature can only be blocked by vampires."
in line with it's flavor text.
In current Standard I'd go with Sphinx's Revelation, its just too much stall on one card.
-Anonymous
I think it's safe to say Magic as a whole is a complex game and no matter what type of deck you're playing...you're making critical decisions each and every game.
Aggro, Control and Combo players alike have to pinpoint when to play certain creatures/spells...how to attack/block...what to remove and when...
There are so many decisions to make during each game of Magic--unless you lose to Turn 2 Infect or something... --that I think most players who play the game exhibit some skill.
Look at "Huey" Jensen recently...If I remember correctly, he's finished Top 8 3 times recently w/ Elves, Jund and UWR...very different decks...but he plays the game w skill and has success with what he plays.
Certain Control players need to give Aggro players some more credit when it comes to skilled play and vice versa (and I say this w/ a deep hatred for Burning Tree decks)...
I don't understand why folks feel the need to belittle other players just because they don't play the archetype they prefer.
Because if I win, the win was due to play skill. If I lost, you just got lucky and I got unlucky.
Huey Jensen is the man. Even watching a Stream, you can tell that he's so much better than his opponents.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)More annoying yet is when you see players who are trying to do mental math and are constantly thinking "Well I know, KNOW, they have at least one, soooo...." and then it just drags on. And usually, 14 out of 15 times, that player does not have the Rampager, so they just sit there and smile goofily.
I personally don't like seeing Unflinching Courage, because I play G/R Kibler and it's very hard to race sometimes.
RRDWR
GW Aggro
I'd have to choose Geist of Saint Traft.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
They were playing the right game 10+ years ago. Sure onslaught was creature oriented but spells hadn't been replaced with cards like Value-tusk and destroy creature spells were much less powerful. Instead of pure creature decks people ran cards like plow under. These days it would only see play if it was attached to a 2/2 body.
on topic: Burning-tree emissary. Why on earth did anyone think it was a good idea to print a card that not only made blitz strategies faster but also more consistent. Blitz decks are as bad as 2-card-combo decks.
I completely agree.
Spam.
-Dark Ritual
Aetherling, Supreme Verdict, Ethereal Armor and Lingering Souls.
Aetherling is the only one of the 3 that I genuinely have issues with. I feel it is just a piss poor excuse for card design to me, especially since it was printed after they acknowledged that Hexproof+Unblockable was way too good. Sure, it's not actual hexproof and gets beaten by Pithing Needle, but I'd say it's slightly better overall.
Supreme is Supreme and anyone who runs creature based decks knows how annoying it is. I've seen quite a large number of games against esper decks where I've run into a Snapped Supreme JUST to kill one creature.
Ethereal Armor is the give away for Bant Pants. A couple of Mill decks in my area run Invis Stalkers as a secondary wincon (Trepanation Blade), and Geist is in everything with UW, but Ethereal Armor is in a very unique spot. Also, who decided to give White an extremely undercosted Green effect, then make it BETTER?
Finally - Lingering Souls. I main Olivia in a lot of decks, so it's not like it's a scary card, but I'm pretty sure it's the single most played spell in my LGS, it just tells me that I'm gonna have to take a nap, and at some point, probably doom blade a token.
Do you drop that Bolt right now, or wait for that double bolt to clear the board and pump your kiln fiend up to 7/2? Do you bother just going for the face or a straight race? Do you play your damage as control? Do you flood the board with Goblin Guides and such?
Do you throw down that Stonewright into an Ash Zealot and swing for two turns using up your mana on turn 3? Or do you put that Boros Reckoner down? Do you spend 3 for that Flames of the Firebrand to clear the board?
Red Deck Wins is much more complicated than people think. Sure, straight suicide aggro is a one trick pony, but just playing suicide aggro against EVERY deck is a poor demonstration of skill and understanding of the game.
That's such a good way to put it. I'd definitely go with Thragtusk myself.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
WUB Esper Control
BRG Jund Midrange
EDH:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa...... ok thanks, i needed that. So, youre saying that every once in a while, in mirror matches, a RDW has to actually THINK? What a crazy concept making decisions is in this card game. I'm so glad there are so many smart RDW players out there to boost the IQ level of the community.
For your info, almost every other deck out there has to think ad make decisions every turn in every game. Thats why most of us find this game fun. Learning to masterfully pilot a deck can be tough. RDW is the internet trolls of the community. Every community needs the trolls, but that doesnt make them any less annoying and cheesy.
So no, dont try and convince yourself you are some strategic master by playing a crap easy deck like RDW.
EDIT: Also, Syncopate. That pixie haired ***** face smirk with the finger waggle is what makes it so annoying, lol.
Co-Owner / Systems Administrator
Fail Gaming
www.FailGaming.com
Skype: Kibbelznbitz69
Syncopate is far too easy to play around.....
Rakdos's Return is a giant pain and almost impossible to play around.