I could have sworn he is in fact being reprinted in M14.
You might be confused with doom blade. No spoiler of traveler yet however his value compared to young wolf is questionable in a meta filled with x/2 aggro where wolf can trade.
You might be confused with doom blade. No spoiler of traveler yet however his value compared to young wolf is questionable in a meta filled with x/2 aggro where wolf can trade.
Yet Young Wolf is almost always cut in some number before Doomed Traveler. I'm not being snark, I actually never understood why. I've always coveted the 2/2 body over the 1/1 flyer. At first I thought it was a mana issue but T1 G and W are usually distributed evenly. Is there any blatant pro for Doomed Traveler over Young Wolf that I'm missing?
You might be confused with doom blade. No spoiler of traveler yet however his value compared to young wolf is questionable in a meta filled with x/2 aggro where wolf can trade.
I don't believe he is but I could also be mistaken.
Now I remember: he's in DotP 14. Could mean he's in M14 but no guarantees obviously. That said I've seen a couple of Innistrad cards crop up in the rumor mill as reprints.
Quote of the day in regards to this talk about control being sooooo bad and blah blah blah. I love control as much as the next guy, in fact its mainly all I have played when I go to an FNM aside from when Goblin Bidding was legal, but its not like nobody is playing control. God Forbid we have Aggro and Midrange taking alot of spots in top 8. Im sure most of these people whining about control being so bad would be perfectly fine with 6-7 control decks top 8 with 1-2 aggro decks and say its fair.
I don't care how many or how few control lists are in the top 8. But you are being disingenuous when you say that combo/aggro player don't complain when control was rocking 4-6 decks in top 8. You shoulda seen the boards when faeries and 5CC were legal, it makes control complaining seem mild.
Yet Young Wolf is almost always cut in some number before Doomed Traveler. I'm not being snark, I actually never understood why. I've always coveted the 2/2 body over the 1/1 flyer. At first I thought it was a mana issue but T1 G and W are usually distributed evenly. Is there any blatant pro for Doomed Traveler over Young Wolf that I'm missing?
I think the evasion the token left behind by doomed traveler is significantly more important than having an extra power / toughness. Thragtusk will eat a 2/2 for breakfast but he aint blocking a spirit token. Considering this decks seems to do lots of small amounts of damage consistently while chump blocking to high heavens it just seems doomed traveler is more important.
I don't care how many or how few control lists are in the top 8. But you are being disingenuous when you say that combo/aggro player don't complain when control was rocking 4-6 decks in top 8. You shoulda seen the boards when faeries and 5CC were legal, it makes control complaining seem mild.
But there is balance, of a sort. It's just not balance that you see every week. If you look at the larger meta across several weeks, you'll see the rise and fall, the ebb and flow, and that there is balance. It isn't like the days of Faeries, Caw Go, or even Delver where you played the deck (or the deck that beat that deck) or not at all.
There is balance, it's just that right now Control is down a bit. Combo is mostly nonexistant, though if you think of Bantalones as Combo it's not all gone. Hopefully Control adapts, or at least gets a few more tools in the next set (but not too many).
I like balance: even if I prefer not to play one style of deck or another, I want there to be a fair balance and representation across the board.
Except for LD. I'm glad that's gone.
See, the problem with this approach is that neither 8 nor 80 are correct.
Ideally, we'd have like 1-2 decks of each style in a top 8, and that would be awesome. We, however, haven't had that in standard since inv-ody regionals
Balance is key! people don't want 4 control decks in a top 8, and they don't want 0. BALANCE!
I mentioned it in the other thread, but I think this is balance. It's probable that the health of control and the diversity of the meta are inversely related. Control comes a knockin when there's a boogie man to take down and there just really isn't one in this standard. This might be as healthy as standard gets. If this is the case I don't really care if I see control again.
Except control does well in Legacy, which has considerably more diversity/angles of attack. The difference is that in Legacy control has answers and card draw/library manipulation that can keep up with the threats, whereas in Standard Wizards have been toning down control's tools at the same time that they're turning every creature into a Titan.
How do you figure that? Control does not need to target a single deck, it can target a style of field equally well!
"healthy" is a bit of a misnomer, no? To me healthy = varied, and as such, less styles of decks cannot be healthier, and is the opposite, unhealthy.
You are thinking of metagame decks, not control. There have been over the course of the game plenty of seasons with no single best deck but where there was control.
EDIT: For clarification, if we see one less style of deck (control), then the format is less healthy due to that. What you care or not is personal and subjective, the health of a format is not. If a format before had Aggro, midrange, tempo, control and then it stops having control, becoming aggro, midrange, tempo... How can it be healthier? It just became less varied, less rich!! It's ridiculous!!
Well, the meta goes through cycles in rock paper scissors fashion. Control is good at analyzing the meta and tailoring their deck towards beating it. In this meta however, it's not as simple of that. Of course, Cavern, VoR, lack of great removal and library manipulation amongst other things are keeping Control down. I also believe, however, another variable holding Control back is the objective, yes objective diversity of the meta. They can tailor their decks to hate on aggro but that leaves them wide open in the mirror and to other control-ish strategies. For example, when the meta started polarizing towards Naya Blitz and Junk Rites a little while ago, control ended up utterly confused as they couldn't deal with two decks efficiently which blatantly lie on completely opposite sides of the spectrum. The constant flux on the meta makes it unpredictable and control relies on prediction.
Again, I want to clarify I'm only speaking on one of many variables. I also again want to clarify that this is one of the most diverse metagames we've had in a very long time and that this is an objective fact. You're speaking on archetypes, which I understand; I'm speaking on actual decks. If you truly believe standard was healthier when we had Caw Blade or Delver because there was some semblance of every archetype present in the meta than you and I truly have different definitions of "healthy".
In that case, how do you justify control's existence in inv-ody standard where you had around 20 different viable archetypes all doing results in the regionals and continentals?
I already touched upon this. I believe its one of many possible variables contributing to Control's struggle. My example of Naya Blitz and Junk Rites polarizing the meta, sitting on two opposite sides of the spectrum and giving Control a headache is a very real and good example of this. The truth of my proposition does not imply that both a diverse meta and Control's struggles have to be mutually inclusive. They can happen absent one another.
100% agreed, but you have not proven at all that control's lack of presence has anything to do with that variance, and there is easily available counterproof.
Of course, I'm postulating.. but logically it makes complete sense. Tell me, how would you set up your control deck to deal with both a Junk Rites and Naya Blitz?
-_- ...
Really?
REALLY?!??!?
This is what ticks me off, people can seem all rational and then they go and say something like this. WHY?!?
If a format has aggro, tempo, combo, midrange, control, and then loses tempo and combo and becomes just aggro, midrange and control, then it became less healthy. This is what happened in the caw blade period.
Delver is the same, except replace midrange with tempo.
Both those are flat examples of cases of deck STYLES disappearing, not just DECKS. Having 30 different aggro decks in a metagame is STILL an unhealthy format as you have ONLY ONE DECK STYLE!!!!
I honestly don't understand why you're complaining about this. Is the meta absolutely perfect? No. Is it the best it's been in a pretty long time? Absolutely. We just have to agree to disagree here because were arguing over something that we both view as objective but in the end is subjective.
Of course, I'm postulating.. but logically it makes complete sense. Tell me, how would you set up your control deck to deal with both a Junk Rites and Naya Blitz?
Peddle to the Meddle seems like a decent solution. But that's more mid range.
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I could have sworn he is in fact being reprinted in M14.
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I don't believe he is but I could also be mistaken.
You might be confused with doom blade. No spoiler of traveler yet however his value compared to young wolf is questionable in a meta filled with x/2 aggro where wolf can trade.
Yet Young Wolf is almost always cut in some number before Doomed Traveler. I'm not being snark, I actually never understood why. I've always coveted the 2/2 body over the 1/1 flyer. At first I thought it was a mana issue but T1 G and W are usually distributed evenly. Is there any blatant pro for Doomed Traveler over Young Wolf that I'm missing?
Now I remember: he's in DotP 14. Could mean he's in M14 but no guarantees obviously. That said I've seen a couple of Innistrad cards crop up in the rumor mill as reprints.
Want to be a better Magic player? Read the rulings forum and check out the comprehensive rules!
I don't care how many or how few control lists are in the top 8. But you are being disingenuous when you say that combo/aggro player don't complain when control was rocking 4-6 decks in top 8. You shoulda seen the boards when faeries and 5CC were legal, it makes control complaining seem mild.
I think the evasion the token left behind by doomed traveler is significantly more important than having an extra power / toughness. Thragtusk will eat a 2/2 for breakfast but he aint blocking a spirit token. Considering this decks seems to do lots of small amounts of damage consistently while chump blocking to high heavens it just seems doomed traveler is more important.
that would be my guess
whats 5CC?
5 Color Control. Used manabases with Reflecting Pool and vivid lands (Vivid Creek cycle) to do stuff like Cryptic Command. Super fun deck.
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There is balance, it's just that right now Control is down a bit. Combo is mostly nonexistant, though if you think of Bantalones as Combo it's not all gone. Hopefully Control adapts, or at least gets a few more tools in the next set (but not too many).
I like balance: even if I prefer not to play one style of deck or another, I want there to be a fair balance and representation across the board.
Except for LD. I'm glad that's gone.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
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I am wondering if the infinite life version might be better atm.
Sadly LD is still there.. Junk reanislimes... or progenitor mimic + slime... is a a playable deck.
I think it is slightly imbalanced, but really not by much nowhere near the level of other standards... I am still angry about cavern of souls.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
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I mentioned it in the other thread, but I think this is balance. It's probable that the health of control and the diversity of the meta are inversely related. Control comes a knockin when there's a boogie man to take down and there just really isn't one in this standard. This might be as healthy as standard gets. If this is the case I don't really care if I see control again.
Well, the meta goes through cycles in rock paper scissors fashion. Control is good at analyzing the meta and tailoring their deck towards beating it. In this meta however, it's not as simple of that. Of course, Cavern, VoR, lack of great removal and library manipulation amongst other things are keeping Control down. I also believe, however, another variable holding Control back is the objective, yes objective diversity of the meta. They can tailor their decks to hate on aggro but that leaves them wide open in the mirror and to other control-ish strategies. For example, when the meta started polarizing towards Naya Blitz and Junk Rites a little while ago, control ended up utterly confused as they couldn't deal with two decks efficiently which blatantly lie on completely opposite sides of the spectrum. The constant flux on the meta makes it unpredictable and control relies on prediction.
Again, I want to clarify I'm only speaking on one of many variables. I also again want to clarify that this is one of the most diverse metagames we've had in a very long time and that this is an objective fact. You're speaking on archetypes, which I understand; I'm speaking on actual decks. If you truly believe standard was healthier when we had Caw Blade or Delver because there was some semblance of every archetype present in the meta than you and I truly have different definitions of "healthy".
I already touched upon this. I believe its one of many possible variables contributing to Control's struggle. My example of Naya Blitz and Junk Rites polarizing the meta, sitting on two opposite sides of the spectrum and giving Control a headache is a very real and good example of this. The truth of my proposition does not imply that both a diverse meta and Control's struggles have to be mutually inclusive. They can happen absent one another.
Of course, I'm postulating.. but logically it makes complete sense. Tell me, how would you set up your control deck to deal with both a Junk Rites and Naya Blitz?
I honestly don't understand why you're complaining about this. Is the meta absolutely perfect? No. Is it the best it's been in a pretty long time? Absolutely. We just have to agree to disagree here because were arguing over something that we both view as objective but in the end is subjective.
Peddle to the Meddle seems like a decent solution. But that's more mid range.