The reason for the caverns is a control heavy meta, so I was going to play-test first with those; if they are not needed, I would/will take them out for 2 Mountain. And I disagree with aristocrat, while a great card, it doesn't belong in every single BRx deck. I could put in diregraf, it would go in the dryad slot most likely, but still wouldn't resolve any of the mana issues. Finally, I have a feeling that while the first strike and trample are decent on the legion trigger, it is the token evasion that is going to put it over the top with this deck.
Not everything in this deck can revolve around Varolz, Legion can be an easy thing to hold back(remember it also has haste) to use on a turn that you can use to trigger its battalion while you also have a searing spear and/or clan in hand. This has the potential of an blow-out, if your opponent doesn't play around it correctly.
Findlyn - How would running Diregraf and retooling your mana base not help your mana issues? You cannot run 1 drops in 3 different colors and expect to cast them on turn 1. You need 12 untapped sources of a color on turn 1 to expect to cast 1 drops most game.
Falkenrath Aristocrat may not belong in every BR deck, but she sure as hell belongs in evey Aggressive BR deck. Not running her is starting at a disadvantage.
Why does "tokens can't block" matter when you have Lotleth and Rancor granting trample? Why not just SB Illness in the Ranks if you are so worried?
I have been saying over and over that everything does not revolve around Varolz. Consistency and Synergy are still things to consider heavily.
Boros0311 , glad to hear its working for you. Told you that Reanimator matchup is healthy :D. I know I can be a buzzkill with all the "that is bad don't do that" but I'm only trying to be constructive.
Blacklanner , Jund decks are only going to run 2 Putrefy, and regeneration still stops everything else. You can't always win.
You need 2 drops to cast off Emissary- no one is worried about him coming down for free turn 4. GR midrange can do this because they can sandbag him till turn 3 to evolve Gyre Sage and have 4 mana on turn 3- your deck offers no similar lines of play.
How many games won with Flesh//Blood would you have still won had you cast any other removal spell is the question??? As I said, it can often be win-more. I will still accept that it has its merits tho.
How many games won with Flesh//Blood would you have still won had you cast any other removal spell is the question??? As I said, it can often be win-more. I will still accept that it has its merits tho.
I think only once did I fire it off for 3 or less. I am almost always throwing them at my opponent's head unless I really needed to kill off a certain creature or grow a Predator Ooze. Every time I had the card I asked myself "Would I rather this be Searing Spear?" 90% of the time, I would say no.
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Blacklanner , that isn't the point- How many games that you won by casting Blood to the face would you have still won without casting Blood? If you have a large creature out, and they are that low on life- probably a lot of them. That is what I mean by it often being win-more. Sure it finished the game- but your large creature was probably going to finish the game next turn anyway.
Sure, Blood has a large effect when it works, but it is rarely to never going to turn a losing situation into a winning one. It will secure your lead, sure- but it is generally better to have cards that will prevent you from losing than cards that will let you win when you are already ahead.
Think of it this way- youre already going to win (eventually) what (this number is arbitrary) 90 percent of the games that Blood would win you whether you had it or not. But a less conditional spell (removal spell) can turn around- what? maybe 30 percent of the games that you were going to otherwise lose.
I'm not saying don't run it- but 4 is definitely too many.
Your point is well made. I can't honestly say how many I would have won anyway as it is often used as a shot out of nowhere (16 damage on Turn 5, etc). I may end up trimming one for another straight kill spell. Further testing is required.
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LordGrimpow - you should definately be running more Lotleth Troll- he is far and away better than Blood Scrivener in this type of deck- and synergizes well with Gravecrawler and Varolz (not only for the pitch but to regenerate and trample once you scavenge onto him).
I would run something else over Putrefy considering you only have 8 green sources.
Since you have 22 possible black sources, you should max out on Messenger before you run any Dreg Mangler- Mangler's scavenge isn't a big pull to him since you have Varolz anyway- and Messenger might as well just have haste since he smacks for 2 when he comes in anyway. When you add in undying he is just hands down better here.
You really need at least 1 more swamp in there, or your m13 duals will often come in tapped, which you can't really afford.
You are also probably better off with Rakdos Cackler over Blood Artist.
I don't really think the high number of zombies is even so necessary, since it only benefits Gravecrawler- and you will often just scavenge him away anyway. I think Ghor-Clan Rampager, Rancor, Spike Jester, and especially the increased ability to play your non-black, non-zombie cards (especially removal- with 9 red sources and 8 green you very often will be stuck unable to play your removal) is a good bit better than Geralf's Messenger (which is the only thing you really gain by going the all zombie route)- especially since Voice of Resurgance is going to be bringing Pillar of Flame back en force.
Also, you really need Tragic Slip x4 in your board. Aristocrat is a huge beating (I know you have Golgari Charm, but 10-13 of your own creatures die to that- and you already have a bunch of regenerators), even if you have your own- and you have plenty of sac effects to turn it on anyway- plus it is awesome at slowing down decks with mana dorks. Tormod's Crypt is better than Cremate here since in such an aggro deck, the mana advantage is more important than drawing an extra card- since you are more concerned about winning fast vs the decks you will want it against (since you will always lose the card advantage/quality war with those decks if the game goes long). Same goes for Slaughter games- you aren't trying to play for the long game. Crypt is so much better to just knock out their yard while you continue to advance your board. If you spend your turns removing threats vs reanimator instead of advancing your board, they will just hardcast a fatty. For Sphinx's Revelation- Duress is a better answer for an aggro deck- It is cheap and you can also grab something like an Azorius Charm. You don't really care about what is in their deck if your plan is to win fast- you just need to work around what they have now.
Why Rakdos Charm??? Isn't it just an expensive Tormod's Crypt like 99.9% of the time??? I don't think being able to kill them with their Lingering Souls once in a blue moon is worth the 2 extra mana- and it isn't like you're ever going to need to destroy an artifact.
Pillar of Flame is probably more important that Flames or Sever right now due to Voice of Resurgence.
Blacklanner- I would really try running just 2 Blood. I definitely see its merits- but as a finisher you really don't ever need/want more than 1 right? and it isn't like you'd really ever be able to cast 2 in one turn to blow them out since its mana cost is both of your secondary colors.
I used it as removal in RG as well, but I didn't have access to Abrupt Decay, Dreadbore and Putrefy in that deck. I will try both 2 and 3 in the deck. Red and green are actually my main colors, with black being secondary in the deck I showed above. That might change to GBr if I end up going with the LolTrolls.
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I'm currently testing out the same deck, kinda... but I want to know thoughts on including planeswalkers. The ones I have are 3 Lilliana of the Veil, 2 Domri Rade, and 2 Garruk, Relentless.
I think domri is a good card to have because he has to be answered, there are a ton of creatures in the deck... and my regen creatures make good fighters. Lilliana i think is just a choice of mine to be more premium but It does not fit, just looking for a few words from the community on her in this deck before I give up. Garruk... probably strictly worse than falconrath so think I answered my own question there.
I assume that your removal package may be meta-based? It seems that tragic slip would be a fine addition in the main vs the sb and perhaps pillar in the side? Obviously if you are running into multiple Voice of Resurgence decks, then by all means. Also, is Searing Spear worth it? Either the decks you run into are creatures with 2 toughness or 4 toughness (Blitz creatures, Smiter, Resto)
Also to your point earlier in the thread, if you are not really concerned about drawing Varolz during the game and he IS legendary, would it maybe make sense to drop him down to 3 instead of 4?
Cackler just another one drop to fill that CMC spot?
On a sidenote, as good as Geralf's Messenger is, he really pigeon toes you into having to play certain cards because of his demanding casting cost. You would almost have to be forced to play all black based lands and maybe cavern of souls. Then you are forced to play less than adequate cards like Blood Scrivener when you could be playing Rampagers and better removal. I would assume that Messenger and all his zombie friends with Varolz would be better suited at that point then in a 2 colored B/G Zombies deck.
Just some of my first thoughts looking at your recent decklist. Very interested in playing this list on Friday.
I assume that your removal package may be meta-based? It seems that tragic slip would be a fine addition in the main vs the sb and perhaps pillar in the side? Obviously if you are running into multiple Voice of Resurgence decks, then by all means. Also, is Searing Spear worth it? Either the decks you run into are creatures with 2 toughness or 4 toughness (Blitz creatures, Smiter, Resto)
Also to your point earlier in the thread, if you are not really concerned about drawing Varolz during the game and he IS legendary, would it maybe make sense to drop him down to 3 instead of 4?
Cackler just another one drop to fill that CMC spot?
On a sidenote, as good as Geralf's Messenger is, he really pigeon toes you into having to play certain cards because of his demanding casting cost. You would almost have to be forced to play all black based lands and maybe cavern of souls. Then you are forced to play less than adequate cards like Blood Scrivener when you could be playing Rampagers and better removal. I would assume that Messenger and all his zombie friends with Varolz would be better suited at that point then in a 2 colored B/G Zombies deck.
Just some of my first thoughts looking at your recent decklist. Very interested in playing this list on Friday.
Just want to say how nice it is to see a new member who posts well and knows what they're talking about.
It's rare.
Thank you.
Also, just want to throw out there that the synergy with Varolz is not worth playing subpar cards like VD, IMO. The basis of the deck looks sound, but - like 100milli said earlier in the thread regarding Slumbering Dragon - you want to play cards that are good on their own all the time and not just when you have Varolz in play. VD fits squarely in that category: it's got good synergy with Varolz, but without it's just as unplayable as ever.
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
I've have ordered Varolz as soon he was spoiled and have been theory crafting ever since,
I wanted to make a more creature centric deck that utilized Varolz but also incorporates many other interesting interactions and combat tricks.
I wanted to stay away from Vexing Devil in this list due to the manabase which would make me take 2 damage in order to have the opponent take 4 first turn which is the only time I'd really want to play him. Also with the amount of bloodrush in the list I would rather have creatures that will stick around to do some work and take advantage of Varolz's effect. Vexing Devil will rarely do what you want him to and I prefer not to give my opponent the option.
I just want to add that I don't think that lists utilizing Vexing Devil's are bad, I just wanted to take a different approach.
One card I wanted to try and fit in is Boros Reckoner because he has nice synergy with Domri's -2 and his first strike option is nice with Bloodrush. I just don't know if incorporating him would be too greedy or if my manabase can withstand the RRR
[QUOTE=redthirst;/comments/11674846]regarding Slumbering Dragon - you want to play cards that are good on their own all the time[QUOTE]
Just want to jump in here two pages too late. Slumbering Dragon is good in the Varolz deck. He stalls aggro that might otherwise race you, and synergizes extremely well with Varolz from both ends.
He's not a bad card by himself; he's bad against combo and control. That's not enough to warrant calling him a bad card. There are very, very few cards in the game of Magic that are "good on their own all the time", and I suspect every single one of them is legal only in Vintage.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
What deck's 75 has regularly played Slumbering Dragon since it's been printed? We're in an extremely creature-heavy meta where the main win-con is to turn dudes sideways - if Slumlord D was good in those MU's then he'd see play in one of the many decks that play R - it doesn't see play because it's not good.
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
I tried a deck very similar to this but i focused more on the green black than red with 4 sire of insanity 3 varolz 3 vexing 4 blood scrivener 2 desecretion demon 1 falkenrath aristocrat ( would have been more but only own 1) then some cacklers and jesters, and putrefy by far was my fave removal( sideboarding pillar for VoR)
This is never a valid argument against a card. First of all, we are not in a "turn creatures sideways" meta. We have Naya Blitz and Jund Midrange. And the occasional diehard RDW player. Aside from those, the meta is Rites (combo), Aristocrats (combo), Bant (control), American Flash (control/tempo), and the silly Auras deck, which I guess is about turning dudes sideways, but it's not aggro.
Secondly, cards go under the radar or are mis-assessed all the time. You can't assume a card is good or bad based on how much play it sees.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I love Slumbering Dragon. I may be Slumbering Dragon's biggest fan. It is a great card for a control deck, because it makes aggro hesitate and that's all control needs to stabilize the board.
That said, it is a card with a specific use -- it is an aggro deterrent in a control deck. Any deck with Varolz in it is not going to be a control deck. Varolz lends himself to either aggro or midrange strategies. Slumbering Dragon does not belong in those kind of decks, and so Slumbering Dragon and Varolz do not belong in any deck together.
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It's a perfectly valid argument. There are plenty of decks that could play Slumbering Dragon if they wished. There are plenty of creature decks that it would be relevant against if it were relevant.
Slumbering Dragon isn't not seeing play because the meta isn't right or because there's no deck to put it in - it's not seeing play because it's a pile.
Good cards see play in something. Dragon does not see constructed play in any capacity.
Also, Aristocrats is an Aggro deck with some cool synergies - not Combo - and every Aggro, Midrange, and Control deck in the meta wins by dealing combat damage with one or more of their many creatures. This is absolutely a "turn dudes sideways" meta.
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Slumbering Dragon is a bad card, yeah, but his point about your argument wasn't that you were arguing for a false point. His point was that, fundamentally, a valid argument can't be circular. Saying a card is bad because no one plays it is like saying my grandpa is dead because we had his funeral.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
It's bad because it's a bad card. We can easily tell it's bad because of the concrete evidence of it not being played.
I'm not saying it's bad because nobody plays it, I'm saying nobody plays it because it's bad - to use your metaphore, your grandpa isn't dead because you had his funeral (which makes no sense), you had his funeral because he's dead (which makes perfect sense).
We have a way to measure the viability of cards that have been in the format for a while - it's called "results". If a card isn't putting up results then it better have a really good reason (like being hated out of the meta or not having a legitimate deck that can support it), if it doesn't then that's because the card is trash.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Ok, look, I agree with you that it's a bad card. But as an exercise in logic, it's easy to show that you can't claim consequences as causes. Results are a consequence of the card being bad. If results are also the reason why you think a card is bad, then you're missing the whole part of the argument where logic happens. You've just caught yourself in a loop where the card is bad because no one plays it because the card is bad because no one plays because the card is bad.
That isn't an interesting point to make. You're just making a facile observation that one statement is basically the same as the other statement.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
I'm not trying to make an argument why the dragon is bad, I'm saying that we have evidence that it is bad.
I don't really need to make an argument when there's proof.
Unless you don't consider SD being played in nothing and against nothing in the year it's been legal to be proof?
I don't feel required to use logical points to debate why the card is unplayable when all the actual evidence is on my side - Slumbering Dragon's complete lack of play in any constructed deck.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
I'm not trying to make an argument why the dragon is bad, I'm saying that we have evidence that it is bad.
I don't feel required to use logical points to debate why the card is unplayable when all the actual evidence is on my side - Slumbering Dragon's complete lack of play in any constructed deck.
I think that's a spurious line of reasoning. Good cards can end up not being used if the metagame can't support them. Slumbering Dragon is a good card for red-based control. If Fires was a deck right now, S.D. would be in its sideboard. Control is weak right now, so S.D. doesn't get played. It's not a bad card, it's just ill-suited to the current environment.
A good analogy would be to Trading Post. It was the cornerstone of a competitive deck for a while. Then Mirrodin Besieged block rotated out, artifacts became less useful, and Trading Post is no longer used. It no longer fits the metagame. That doesn't make it a bad card, just a bad fit.
The question in this thread, however, is Varolz. It looks like a good card. Is it a good fit for the current metagame? I'm not convinced -- it looks too midgame-y for today's brutal fast aggro decks. I hope this thread eventually gets around to proving me wrong, though.
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UWR, Naya, and Jund are all Midrange/Control decks that could use Slumbering Dragon as a SB card against Aggro (it's just as good of an anti-Aggro card in Aggro too, btw).
UWR, Naya, and Jund make up a significant portion of the Standard metagame - Aggro decks make up another significant portion - SD still does not see play.
A card not seeing play can be excused if the meta is unfriendly towards it or there is no deck for it to be played in, but neither of those are the case.
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
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The reason for the caverns is a control heavy meta, so I was going to play-test first with those; if they are not needed, I would/will take them out for 2 Mountain. And I disagree with aristocrat, while a great card, it doesn't belong in every single BRx deck. I could put in diregraf, it would go in the dryad slot most likely, but still wouldn't resolve any of the mana issues. Finally, I have a feeling that while the first strike and trample are decent on the legion trigger, it is the token evasion that is going to put it over the top with this deck.
Not everything in this deck can revolve around Varolz, Legion can be an easy thing to hold back(remember it also has haste) to use on a turn that you can use to trigger its battalion while you also have a searing spear and/or clan in hand. This has the potential of an blow-out, if your opponent doesn't play around it correctly.
Falkenrath Aristocrat may not belong in every BR deck, but she sure as hell belongs in evey Aggressive BR deck. Not running her is starting at a disadvantage.
Why does "tokens can't block" matter when you have Lotleth and Rancor granting trample? Why not just SB Illness in the Ranks if you are so worried?
I have been saying over and over that everything does not revolve around Varolz. Consistency and Synergy are still things to consider heavily.
Boros0311 , glad to hear its working for you. Told you that Reanimator matchup is healthy :D. I know I can be a buzzkill with all the "that is bad don't do that" but I'm only trying to be constructive.
Blacklanner , Jund decks are only going to run 2 Putrefy, and regeneration still stops everything else. You can't always win.
You need 2 drops to cast off Emissary- no one is worried about him coming down for free turn 4. GR midrange can do this because they can sandbag him till turn 3 to evolve Gyre Sage and have 4 mana on turn 3- your deck offers no similar lines of play.
How many games won with Flesh//Blood would you have still won had you cast any other removal spell is the question??? As I said, it can often be win-more. I will still accept that it has its merits tho.
I think only once did I fire it off for 3 or less. I am almost always throwing them at my opponent's head unless I really needed to kill off a certain creature or grow a Predator Ooze. Every time I had the card I asked myself "Would I rather this be Searing Spear?" 90% of the time, I would say no.
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Sure, Blood has a large effect when it works, but it is rarely to never going to turn a losing situation into a winning one. It will secure your lead, sure- but it is generally better to have cards that will prevent you from losing than cards that will let you win when you are already ahead.
Think of it this way- youre already going to win (eventually) what (this number is arbitrary) 90 percent of the games that Blood would win you whether you had it or not. But a less conditional spell (removal spell) can turn around- what? maybe 30 percent of the games that you were going to otherwise lose.
I'm not saying don't run it- but 4 is definitely too many.
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
3 Vexing Devil
3 Lotleth Troll
3 Blood Artist
3 Blood Scrivener
2 Dreg Mangler
3 Geralf's Messenger
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Putrefy
3 Searing Spear
Lands (23)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Blood Scrivener
2 Cremate
2 Golgari Charm
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Sever the Bloodline
3 Slaughter Games
3 Vampire Nighthawk
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
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I would run something else over Putrefy considering you only have 8 green sources.
Since you have 22 possible black sources, you should max out on Messenger before you run any Dreg Mangler- Mangler's scavenge isn't a big pull to him since you have Varolz anyway- and Messenger might as well just have haste since he smacks for 2 when he comes in anyway. When you add in undying he is just hands down better here.
You really need at least 1 more swamp in there, or your m13 duals will often come in tapped, which you can't really afford.
You are also probably better off with Rakdos Cackler over Blood Artist.
I don't really think the high number of zombies is even so necessary, since it only benefits Gravecrawler- and you will often just scavenge him away anyway. I think Ghor-Clan Rampager, Rancor, Spike Jester, and especially the increased ability to play your non-black, non-zombie cards (especially removal- with 9 red sources and 8 green you very often will be stuck unable to play your removal) is a good bit better than Geralf's Messenger (which is the only thing you really gain by going the all zombie route)- especially since Voice of Resurgance is going to be bringing Pillar of Flame back en force.
Also, you really need Tragic Slip x4 in your board. Aristocrat is a huge beating (I know you have Golgari Charm, but 10-13 of your own creatures die to that- and you already have a bunch of regenerators), even if you have your own- and you have plenty of sac effects to turn it on anyway- plus it is awesome at slowing down decks with mana dorks. Tormod's Crypt is better than Cremate here since in such an aggro deck, the mana advantage is more important than drawing an extra card- since you are more concerned about winning fast vs the decks you will want it against (since you will always lose the card advantage/quality war with those decks if the game goes long). Same goes for Slaughter games- you aren't trying to play for the long game. Crypt is so much better to just knock out their yard while you continue to advance your board. If you spend your turns removing threats vs reanimator instead of advancing your board, they will just hardcast a fatty. For Sphinx's Revelation- Duress is a better answer for an aggro deck- It is cheap and you can also grab something like an Azorius Charm. You don't really care about what is in their deck if your plan is to win fast- you just need to work around what they have now.
Why Rakdos Charm??? Isn't it just an expensive Tormod's Crypt like 99.9% of the time??? I don't think being able to kill them with their Lingering Souls once in a blue moon is worth the 2 extra mana- and it isn't like you're ever going to need to destroy an artifact.
Pillar of Flame is probably more important that Flames or Sever right now due to Voice of Resurgence.
Blacklanner- I would really try running just 2 Blood. I definitely see its merits- but as a finisher you really don't ever need/want more than 1 right? and it isn't like you'd really ever be able to cast 2 in one turn to blow them out since its mana cost is both of your secondary colors.
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C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
I think domri is a good card to have because he has to be answered, there are a ton of creatures in the deck... and my regen creatures make good fighters. Lilliana i think is just a choice of mine to be more premium but It does not fit, just looking for a few words from the community on her in this deck before I give up. Garruk... probably strictly worse than falconrath so think I answered my own question there.
I assume that your removal package may be meta-based? It seems that tragic slip would be a fine addition in the main vs the sb and perhaps pillar in the side? Obviously if you are running into multiple Voice of Resurgence decks, then by all means. Also, is Searing Spear worth it? Either the decks you run into are creatures with 2 toughness or 4 toughness (Blitz creatures, Smiter, Resto)
Also to your point earlier in the thread, if you are not really concerned about drawing Varolz during the game and he IS legendary, would it maybe make sense to drop him down to 3 instead of 4?
Cackler just another one drop to fill that CMC spot?
On a sidenote, as good as Geralf's Messenger is, he really pigeon toes you into having to play certain cards because of his demanding casting cost. You would almost have to be forced to play all black based lands and maybe cavern of souls. Then you are forced to play less than adequate cards like Blood Scrivener when you could be playing Rampagers and better removal. I would assume that Messenger and all his zombie friends with Varolz would be better suited at that point then in a 2 colored B/G Zombies deck.
Just some of my first thoughts looking at your recent decklist. Very interested in playing this list on Friday.
Just want to say how nice it is to see a new member who posts well and knows what they're talking about.
It's rare.
Thank you.
Also, just want to throw out there that the synergy with Varolz is not worth playing subpar cards like VD, IMO. The basis of the deck looks sound, but - like 100milli said earlier in the thread regarding Slumbering Dragon - you want to play cards that are good on their own all the time and not just when you have Varolz in play. VD fits squarely in that category: it's got good synergy with Varolz, but without it's just as unplayable as ever.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
I've have ordered Varolz as soon he was spoiled and have been theory crafting ever since,
I wanted to make a more creature centric deck that utilized Varolz but also incorporates many other interesting interactions and combat tricks.
I wanted to stay away from Vexing Devil in this list due to the manabase which would make me take 2 damage in order to have the opponent take 4 first turn which is the only time I'd really want to play him. Also with the amount of bloodrush in the list I would rather have creatures that will stick around to do some work and take advantage of Varolz's effect. Vexing Devil will rarely do what you want him to and I prefer not to give my opponent the option.
I just want to add that I don't think that lists utilizing Vexing Devil's are bad, I just wanted to take a different approach.
One card I wanted to try and fit in is Boros Reckoner because he has nice synergy with Domri's -2 and his first strike option is nice with Bloodrush. I just don't know if incorporating him would be too greedy or if my manabase can withstand the RRR
Below is the decklist I have been working on,
Any feedback/comments are appreciated,
4x Wasteland Viper
4x Ash Zealot
3x Pyrewild Shaman
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Tragic Slip
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Dreadbore
4x Domri Rade
4x Dragonskull Summit
4x Blood Crypt
1x Kessig Wolfrun
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Woodland Cemetery
4x Stomping Ground
1x Tragic Slip
3x Duress
2x Illness In the Ranks
2x Dreadbore
3x Ground Seal
4x Slaughter Games
Again all feedback is appreciated,
Cards I wanted to put in but decided against: Strangleroot Geist, Knight of Infamy, and Boros Reckoner.
Just want to jump in here two pages too late. Slumbering Dragon is good in the Varolz deck. He stalls aggro that might otherwise race you, and synergizes extremely well with Varolz from both ends.
He's not a bad card by himself; he's bad against combo and control. That's not enough to warrant calling him a bad card. There are very, very few cards in the game of Magic that are "good on their own all the time", and I suspect every single one of them is legal only in Vintage.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
This is never a valid argument against a card. First of all, we are not in a "turn creatures sideways" meta. We have Naya Blitz and Jund Midrange. And the occasional diehard RDW player. Aside from those, the meta is Rites (combo), Aristocrats (combo), Bant (control), American Flash (control/tempo), and the silly Auras deck, which I guess is about turning dudes sideways, but it's not aggro.
Secondly, cards go under the radar or are mis-assessed all the time. You can't assume a card is good or bad based on how much play it sees.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
That said, it is a card with a specific use -- it is an aggro deterrent in a control deck. Any deck with Varolz in it is not going to be a control deck. Varolz lends himself to either aggro or midrange strategies. Slumbering Dragon does not belong in those kind of decks, and so Slumbering Dragon and Varolz do not belong in any deck together.
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
It's a perfectly valid argument. There are plenty of decks that could play Slumbering Dragon if they wished. There are plenty of creature decks that it would be relevant against if it were relevant.
Slumbering Dragon isn't not seeing play because the meta isn't right or because there's no deck to put it in - it's not seeing play because it's a pile.
Good cards see play in something. Dragon does not see constructed play in any capacity.
Also, Aristocrats is an Aggro deck with some cool synergies - not Combo - and every Aggro, Midrange, and Control deck in the meta wins by dealing combat damage with one or more of their many creatures. This is absolutely a "turn dudes sideways" meta.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
I'm not saying it's bad because nobody plays it, I'm saying nobody plays it because it's bad - to use your metaphore, your grandpa isn't dead because you had his funeral (which makes no sense), you had his funeral because he's dead (which makes perfect sense).
We have a way to measure the viability of cards that have been in the format for a while - it's called "results". If a card isn't putting up results then it better have a really good reason (like being hated out of the meta or not having a legitimate deck that can support it), if it doesn't then that's because the card is trash.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
That isn't an interesting point to make. You're just making a facile observation that one statement is basically the same as the other statement.
I don't really need to make an argument when there's proof.
Unless you don't consider SD being played in nothing and against nothing in the year it's been legal to be proof?
I don't feel required to use logical points to debate why the card is unplayable when all the actual evidence is on my side - Slumbering Dragon's complete lack of play in any constructed deck.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
I think that's a spurious line of reasoning. Good cards can end up not being used if the metagame can't support them. Slumbering Dragon is a good card for red-based control. If Fires was a deck right now, S.D. would be in its sideboard. Control is weak right now, so S.D. doesn't get played. It's not a bad card, it's just ill-suited to the current environment.
A good analogy would be to Trading Post. It was the cornerstone of a competitive deck for a while. Then Mirrodin Besieged block rotated out, artifacts became less useful, and Trading Post is no longer used. It no longer fits the metagame. That doesn't make it a bad card, just a bad fit.
The question in this thread, however, is Varolz. It looks like a good card. Is it a good fit for the current metagame? I'm not convinced -- it looks too midgame-y for today's brutal fast aggro decks. I hope this thread eventually gets around to proving me wrong, though.
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
UWR, Naya, and Jund make up a significant portion of the Standard metagame - Aggro decks make up another significant portion - SD still does not see play.
A card not seeing play can be excused if the meta is unfriendly towards it or there is no deck for it to be played in, but neither of those are the case.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage