Dega Midrange

  • #1
    This thread is the official thread to discuss all Dega Midrange decks.
    Last edited by Koopa: 6/5/2013 7:45:21 AM

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  • #2
    WBR Dega Midrange WBR



    Introduction
    Dega Midrange is a deck designed in a classic Midrange fashion to determine "Who is the beatdown?". Utilizing power cards like Boros Reckoner, Blood Baron of Vizkopa and some of the most powerful removal in the format, Dega is capable of playing both the beatdown and the control roles to out match many of the decks in the current standard format.

    The core of the deck is focused around cards that provide you ways to grind your way into an advantageous position from which you can capitalize on. Unlike its RBx counterpart Jund, Dega utilizes white instead of green, this opens us up to cards like Blood Baron of Vizkopa over Thragtusk to combat aggro and other options across the board. Dega plays very much like a Jund deck that can go under the radar of many decks in the format and runs a number of hate cards and hard to answer threats and creates value by pinpointing strategies and diminishing the value of playing those strategies.

    Dega Midrange is a very strong and flexible archetype with plenty of possibility!



    Why Play This Deck?

    A common question is "Why play this over something like Jund?".

    Jund is the most comparable deck for Dega, in that it functions very similar to Jund yet runs an entirely different creature and spell packages. Dega specializes in pinpointing tools in the format, anything from Appetite for Brains and Lifebane Zombie to Duress and Sin Collector can act as powerful tools to maintain a favorable board state.

    Dega Midrange excels in being capable of flexing to it's needs to offer a good amount of favorable matches, however there are still weaknesses to the deck and these are covered in the Match Breakdowns section below.

    Strong cards like Boros Reckoner and Blood Baron of Vizkopa not only offer up threats that can be strenuous to remove, but they hedge the aggro match into somewhat favorable matches. Their ability to take over the game when backed by a bit or removal is virtually unparalleled. Utilizing cheap removal such as Pillar of Flame, Shock, Doom Blade and Mizzium Mortars aggressive decks can be postponed enough to start using cards like Boros Reckoner, Blood Baron of Vizkopa and Warleader's Helix to bring you out of their reach.

    Dega also has a wide number of tools to combat midrange strategies like Jund, Junk Reanimator and various other decks. Utilizing cards like Appetite for Brains, Lifebane Zombie, our removal suite, and finishers such as Thundermaw Hellkite and Aurelia we are capable of overpowering many midrange strategies by coming over the top of their finishers.

    We can perform well against control at times, but it is not always easy. With the ability to continuously trade 1 for 1 and refill their hand, control can be a struggle. Having access to cards like Duress, Sin Collector, Liliana of the Veil and Slaughter Games can go a long ways in helping shore up these matches.

    If you like playing a midrange deck with a few angles of attack, this deck just might be for you! It is a blast to play and has an incredible amount of room for growth, offering both a fun and rewarding deck for you to play in a competitive event!



    Sample Decklist


    Dega Divine by Kamahl, the Fallen 8/3/13Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creature (14)
    4 Boros Reckoner
    3 Sin Collector
    3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
    2 Thundermaw Hellkite

    Planeswalker (1)
    1 Chandra, Pyromaster

    Legendary Creature (3)
    1 Aurelia, the Warleader
    2 Olivia Voldaren

    Instant (7)
    3 Warleader's Helix
    2 Doom Blade
    2 Searing Spear

    Sorcery (13)
    2 Dreadbore
    4 Faithless Looting
    2 Mizzium Mortars
    2 Rakdos's Return
    2 Unburial Rites

    Land (25)
    4 Blood Crypt
    4 Dragonskull Summit
    4 Godless Shrine
    3 Isolated Chapel
    4 Sacred Foundry
    3 Clifftop Retreat
    2 Cavern of Souls
    1 Slayer's Stronghold



    Dega Midrange by cmeks 8/5/13Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures
    4 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
    4 Lifebane Zombie
    3 Sin Collector
    2 Thundermaw Hellkite
    3 Olivia Voldaren
    1 Aurelia, the Warleader

    Instants
    2 Doom Blade
    2 Warleader's Helix

    Sorceries
    3 Faithless Looting
    2 Mizzium Mortars
    2 Rakdos's Return
    3 Dreadbore
    2 Unburial Rites
    2 Pillar of Flame

    Land
    2 Slayer's Stronghold
    1 Cavern of Souls
    22 Other Lands



    Dega Midrange by kensanity 8/4/13Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures:17
    4 Boros Reckoner
    1 Lifebane Zombie
    3 Vampire Nighthawk
    2 Olivia Voldaren
    4 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
    2 Thundermaw Hellkite
    1 Aurelia, the Warleader

    Spells:18
    4 Pillar of Flame
    3 Doom Blade
    2 Dreadbore
    3 Mizzium Mortars
    1 Oblivion Ring
    1 Chandra, Pyromaster
    4 Warleader's Helix

    Lands:25
    4 Blood Crypt
    3 Clifftop Retreat
    4 Dragonskull Summit
    4 Godless Shrine
    4 Isolated Chapel
    4 Sacred Foundry
    2 Slayers' Stronghold



    Dega Midrange by Ryan Hipp 1st Place TCGPlayer 5K - MadisonMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures (11)
    4 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
    4 Boros Reckoner
    3 Vampire Nighthawk

    Legendary Creatures (5)
    1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
    2 Aurelia, the Warleader
    2 Olivia Voldaren

    Artifact (1)
    1 Rakdos Keyrune

    Enchantment (2)
    2 Assemble the Legion

    Instant (4)
    4 Warleader's Helix

    Sorcery (12)
    2 Blasphemous Act
    3 Dreadbore
    2 Mizzium Mortars
    4 Pillar of Flame
    1 Rakdos's Return

    Land (25)
    3 Blood Crypt
    2 Cavern of Souls
    4 Clifftop Retreat
    4 Dragonskull Summit
    4 Godless Shrine
    4 Isolated Chapel
    4 Sacred Foundry



    Dega Midrange by Kevin Wallner 2nd Place Montana States 2013Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures (15)
    4 Boros Reckoner
    3 Sin Collector
    2 Fiend Hunter
    3 Restoration Angel
    3 Angel of Serenity

    Planeswalker (3)
    3 Liliana of the Veil

    Legendary Creatures (3)
    1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
    2 Aurelia, the Warleader

    Instant (2)
    2 Warleader's Helix

    Sorcery (13)
    3 Dreadbore
    4 Faithless Looting
    3 Mizzium Mortars
    3 Unburial Rites

    Land (24)
    4 Blood Crypt
    4 Dragonskull Summit
    4 Godless Shrine
    4 Isolated Chapel
    3 Sacred Foundry
    3 Clifftop Retreat
    1 Vault of the Archangel



    Dega Midrange by Oscar Jones 10th Place Magic Online ChampionshipMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures (7)
    4 Boros Reckoner
    1 Angel of Serenity
    2 Falkenrath Aristocrat

    Planeswalker (2)
    2 Liliana of the Veil

    Legendary Creatures (6)
    2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
    2 Olivia Voldaren
    2 Aurelia, the Warleader

    Instant (3)
    1 Orzhov Charm
    1 Tragic Slip
    1 Searing Spear

    Sorcery (16)
    2 Blasphemous Act
    1 Pillar of Flame
    4 Lingering Souls
    2 Dreadbore
    3 Faithless Looting
    3 Unburial Rites
    1 Mizzium Mortars

    Land (25)
    4 Blood Crypt
    4 Dragonskull Summit
    4 Godless Shrine
    4 Isolated Chapel
    3 Sacred Foundry
    3 Clifftop Retreat
    2 Vault of the Archangel
    2 Mountain






    Card Choices


    Faithless Looting vs Sign in Blood
    Indexing cards is important. We need ways to filter through removal, threats and we need to be able to do it efficiently. Sign in Blood requires extra life to use, which is not always easy, however it goes a long way in making sure we keep our hand stocked and our options open. Faithless Looting is often the indexing of choice, primarily because of it's cost and it's interactions with Flashback.


    Every card in Dega has a job to perform, but what about the cards that do not have a job to perform that is not doing some sort of intersection (such as removal) or winning (such as Blood Baron)?

    They index. Faithless looting is a card that indexes your outs, compacts your deck and fixes known issues such as dead cards, wrong mana colors etc. If a card expires it's sell by date during the course of the game, it sits there. Faithless Looting recycles there for other resources and has the ability to not only do it once, but twice per copy as the game progresses into the later stages.

    It is not meant to draw you cards, it is meant to index and manage assets within the deck. This is where the discussion of card drawing like Underworld Connection begins to come in and the discussion of what is efficient (other interactions like FB aside) and what is not. What does the indexing card need to achieve for you? Are you creature heavy and wanting constant ammunition? Or are you looking for more of a tool box approach?

    Faithless Looting was never meant to draw cards it was meant to find outs and smooth things out. While it can be beneficial to discard FB spells because you virtually draw more cards, I have always felt it is more important to evaluate those cards you are using for the virtual drawing aspect against other cards that were able to perform more specific tasks and if they are indeed more beneficial. I recall breaking this down to drawing Pillar of Flame or another removal spell to Lingering Souls. Is it more beneficial to chump 2-4 bodies with souls or to remove a creature on the offense entirely?

    Faithless Looting is a great card for looking for outs. Do you have to sometimes pitch cards you could otherwise actually use? Most certainly but a card that has roughly 12% on 3 outs and roughly 23% for 6 outs is impressive for colors that have very few options and when you are looking to fix your mana or just cycle through dead cards, Faithless Looting is capable of being quite a powerful card.

    3 land in play all RW and a RW land in hand with 50 cards in deck leaves most lists with a 30%-32% chance of fixing their mana while leaving options open for intersecting lines of play such as mortars, Dreadbore, Doom Blade etc as well as pitching potentially weaker cards to adjust yourself for stronger plays.



    Boros Reckoner
    Boros Reckoner is the flagship aggro deterrent. Because Dega Midrange tends to focus on a slower game like Jund, and we struggle to have actual 2 for 1's in our deck, Reckoner offers us a great too to delaying attacks from aggressive opponents and sets us up for cards like Warleader's Helix and Blood Baron of Vizkopa or even a nicely timed Mizzium Mortars, which can be backbreaking for aggro decks to deal with.

    Lifebane Zombie and Sin Collector
    Lifebane Zombie and Sin Collector are easy ways for Dega to remove problematic cards and strengthen our overall game plan. Lifebane Zombie is perfect for attacking many midrange strategies in the format and hits a wide number of value creatures such as Thragtusk, Restoration Angel, Huntmaster of the Fells and many other great cards in the format that can get in the way of our beatdown.

    Sin Collector is exceptional at opening the way for finishers and allowing our threats to stick to the board. Being an all-star in the control match, Sin Collector is also a great card in removal heavy midrange matches as well.


    Overloaded Mortars, Liliana of the Veil, Appetite for Brains, Lifebane Zombie Ratchet Bomb... the list can go on really.

    Not too terribly worried about it.

    speaking of card intersection and choices, here are some numbers relating my option of Sin Collector over Lifebane Zombie.

    Here is a breakdown of each of the decks that made it into the top 8 of SCG Somerset Invitational and the number of cards in my list that intersect with them. For strengths, we are looking at about 18+ intersection. Par is about 16-17 points of intersection, and sub-par is anything 15 and below.


    2 Unburial Rites
    2 Dreadbore
    3 Sin Collector
    3 Warleader's Helix
    3 Mizzium Mortars
    2 Searing Spear
    2 Doom Blade
    2 Olivia Voldaren


    2 Dreadbore
    3 Warleader's Helix
    3 Mizzium Mortars
    2 Searing Spear
    2 Doom Blade
    2 Olivia Voldaren


    2 Dreadbore
    3 Sin Collector
    3 Warleader's Helix
    3 Mizzium Mortars
    2 Doom Blade
    1 Cavern of Souls


    2 Dreadbore
    3 Sin Collector
    3 Warleader's Helix
    3 Mizzium Mortars
    2 Searing Spear
    2 Doom Blade
    2 Olivia Voldaren


    2 Dreadbore
    3 Warleader's Helix
    3 Mizzium Mortars
    2 Searing Spear
    2 Doom Blade


    2 Dreadbore
    3 Sin Collector
    3 Warleader's Helix
    3 Mizzium Mortars
    2 Searing Spear
    2 Doom Blade
    2 Olivia Voldaren


    2 Unburial Rites
    2 Dreadbore
    3 Sin Collector
    3 Warleader's Helix
    3 Mizzium Mortars
    2 Searing Spear
    2 Doom Blade
    2 Olivia Voldaren

    There are a number of cards not factored in as you may have noticed and that is because there is not really any direct card intersection. Unburial Rites made it in against removal heavy midrange like Jund and BG. While it may not directly intersect with their removal, it still intersects by bringing back the removed target.

    These are also numbers based on the main board. While Lifebane Zombie still factors in against decks like Jund and even BG Midrange and Naya Midrange, you can see that matches like the control match, already are weak in initial intersection and Lifebane does absolutely nothing to strengthen us on that front, where Sin Collector still intersects where Lifebane would in various situations and still offers a line of intersection against control decks.

    These numbers may not mean anything to you, but they mean everything to me when it becomes a point of analytic card choices like Lifebane Zombie over Sin Collector etc.


    So this whole thing about points of intersection is based on Bayesian statistics, in where we begin to establish a hypothesis. These points of intersection serve as data where we can begin to hammer out the statistics of any given phenomenon. In this case, interacting with your opponent and the probability that you will be able to answer/meet the demands of the game state. Bayesian statistics are used to generate the probability that something is true.

    The reason why we include a card that has a grand total of 4 targets for a specific match is because that data still factors into establishing your hypothesis. Whether or not the card is actually as effective as it should be is not really all that relevant at this point.

    Why?

    Because we are calculating the overall probability that you will be able to meet and match game state expectations. Similar to binary, we will be looking at 1 and 0. If true (intersects) 1, if false (no intersection) 0. How many points of intersection is more relevant in sideboarding, and I will explain how and why, a bit later. Why these numbers are set where I set them is really something that can change from individual to individual I suppose, or depending on the argument.

    I chose the perimeters I did because 15 is a little less than half of the non land cards in our deck and I can start to break the standard 34-36 cards down into 2 categories; cards that kill and cards that interact. because we are more of a controlling midrange compared to something like Naya Midrange the parameter for having a + is a bit higher, because we tend to want to answer threats quickly, we want more outs. With something more like Naya Midrange, I would set this bar quite a bit lower as they tend to be more aggressive.

    So if we know that any point of intersection is a 1 (+) and every point that does not intersect is a (0), we can add up the number of true statements to provide us with a number that can give us an overview and the probability that we will be able to actually interact with our opponent as well as form a conclusion of where our match should be.

    This is a method I like to use when constructing. It gives me a lot of information at a glance and it gives me a conclusion I can make and meet during testing without having to change my deck frequently during testing.

    When you are sideboarding, you are building a deck, every time. Much like I do when constructing the initial list, and much like many of you may do without even realizing it, is use Bayesian statistics. When you are throwing in that extra Doom Blade or take out that Liliana of the Veil, you are inadvertently applying Bayesian statistics. This is where magnifying these points of intersections is important. Because you are refocusing, you can take out something like Sin Collector, which has fewer intersection points and put in something with more intersection points which strengthens your match.



    Olivia Voldaren
    Olivia Voldaren is a creature of much discussion. Her ability to dominate against many midrange strategies makes her appealing without question. Offering the deck an array of options as she doubles up as a growing body and continuous removal.


    Thundermaw Hellkite
    This heavy hitter is a serious beating. Thundermaw Hellkite is ideal for negating Thragtusk strategies and sneaking in damage by tapping down fliers and flying over ground pounders. Hellkite has been used to combat midrange and control with raw efficiency over it's life in Standard and it is a highly desirable creature which is fully capable of just closing out games.

    Aurelia, the Warleader
    A shinning star for Dega Midrange, Aurelia, the War Leader has only recently started seeing play. Her ability to convert early creatures into wrecking machines leaves her as a fantastic finisher against any deck. Aurelia often contributes to wins that were not necessarily suppose to happen.




    Match Breakdowns

    Coming Soon!


    Leeched images removed. ~parinoid
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    • Aurelia-the-Warleader-Gatecrash-Spoilers
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    • Image (1)
    Last edited by Kamahl, the Fallen: 8/17/2013 11:56:55 AM
  • #3
    initial thoughts:

    - Purge the profane is awful. Nobody plays mind rot, and this is much worse. The two life gained is not worth the extra mana.
    - Why faithless looting? Only two other of your spells have flashback. Lingering souls is something you'd rather cast both sides of, and rolling temblor is not something that you'll usually want to flash back. Faithless looting is card disadvantage unless you can really take advantage of the cards you discard, which this deck doesn't do.
    - Four gideon is WAY too much. Don't think of him as a planeswalker, think of him as a legendary creature. In 1/50 games you might ultimate him, but most of the time he is only going to be gaining loyalty and attacking.
    - I don't think that orzhov charm is a card that control decks want to be playing. It's nice that it hits any creature, but the fact that you lose life when you cast it makes it suboptimal for control decks. It's a great card in an aggro or midrange shell, though.

    Overall I think you need to spend some time playtesting this archetype before making a primer. Just from looking at your list, I really doubt that you've done much testing.
  • #4
    Quote from preppypoof
    initial thoughts:

    - Purge the profane is awful. Nobody plays mind rot, and this is much worse. The two life gained is not worth the extra mana.
    - Why faithless looting? Only two other of your spells have flashback. Lingering souls is something you'd rather cast both sides of, and rolling temblor is not something that you'll usually want to flash back. Faithless looting is card disadvantage unless you can really take advantage of the cards you discard, which this deck doesn't do.
    - Four gideon is WAY too much. Don't think of him as a planeswalker, think of him as a legendary creature. In 1/50 games you might ultimate him, but most of the time he is only going to be gaining loyalty and attacking.
    - I don't think that orzhov charm is a card that control decks want to be playing. It's nice that it hits any creature, but the fact that you lose life when you cast it makes it suboptimal for control decks. It's a great card in an aggro or midrange shell, though.

    Overall I think you need to spend some time playtesting this archetype before making a primer. Just from looking at your list, I really doubt that you've done much testing.


    Been testing for a over a week, expanding on AJ Sacher's thoughts about the block to standard port.

    I think you are severely underestimating Purge of the Profane as a 4 drop in this deck and often times it fits extremely well with the curve and what I want to be doing. I have a chunk of a spiral notebook dedicated to notes on testing this deck and if I had more time to condense and shift them over to this primer I would be doing it now, unfortunately I am out the door.

    I think of Gideon as a creature, which is why there are 4 mah good man.

    Looting is essential for the deck to filter and draw and as AJ Sacher stated, it is there to fill a very important role which the colors and archetype demand.

    Orzhov Charm has been a life saver, pun intended. It is an emergency out and it is easier for the early game on the mana base rather than just jamming 4 Dreadbore in and trying to pick up the slack with something as situational as Ultimate Price or as costly as Murder.
  • #5
    Been testing for a over a week, expanding on AJ Sacher's thoughts about the block to standard port.

    I think you are severely underestimating Purge of the Profane as a 4 drop in this deck and often times it fits extremely well with the curve and what I want to be doing. I have a chunk of a spiral notebook dedicated to notes on testing this deck and if I had more time to condense and shift them over to this primer I would be doing it now, unfortunately I am out the door.

    I think of Gideon as a creature, which is why there are 4 mah good man.

    Looting is essential for the deck to filter and draw and as AJ Sacher stated, it is there to fill a very important role which the colors and archetype demand.

    Orzhov Charm has been a life saver, pun intended. It is an emergency out and it is easier for the early game on the mana base rather than just jamming 4 Dreadbore in and trying to pick up the slack with something as situational as Ultimate Price or as costly as Murder.


    That deck is really old, and didn't do very well even when it debuted. it's a pretty cool looking deck, but i just don't see how it could beat any of the decks that people are playing right now. it doesn't have any stabilizing lifegain cards like thragtusk or sphinx's revelation, and it can't really go over the top of control or midrange decks.

    i'd be really curious to see what decks you tested against.
  • #6
    Purge the profane is awful. If you want discard just stick with your Liliana or Rakdos's return. Return for x=2 is the same effect, and obviously better with more mana, as well as a burn win condition. Olivia voldaren might have a place in the 75, on a random note.

    Also, 4 Gideon is truly a LOT. It doesnt have haste, and risks getting hit vefore attacking. Running less would let you drop it at opportube times or sit on one, without worrying about clogging or having to lose card advantage with faithless, in a deck where advantage is important. I would suggest blind obedience for this deck (maybe only 1 or 2, though, the extort is good, but not good enough to run extra.. It helps Gideon considerably, lets you save your wipes until they are more profitable, and the extort is powerful in long games.
    Last edited by Cyberzilla: 2/6/2013 5:17:47 PM
  • #7
    Quote from preppypoof
    That deck is really old, and didn't do very well even when it debuted. it's a pretty cool looking deck, but i just don't see how it could beat any of the decks that people are playing right now. it doesn't have any stabilizing lifegain cards like thragtusk or sphinx's revelation, and it can't really go over the top of control or midrange decks.

    i'd be really curious to see what decks you tested against.


    Since when has Lifegain been a mandatory stabilizing agent? Lifegain is relevant in decks where they are trading 1-1 in the early and mid game where they have to get it back up before they start grinding a deck down. Regs has early spot removal with Tremblor and Barter to cartch up, if it isn't hitting those it is hitting Liliana, Lingering Souls Pillar of Flame, dreadbore, Orzhov charm. It is chalk full of removal for early, mid and late game, which allows it to stabilize without life gain.

    Been testing it against the following

    BR Aggro
    RDW
    Boros Aggro
    Bant Humans
    Bant Midrange
    Bant Control
    Jund Midrange
    Jund Aggro
    GW Beats

    All of which have brought me to the proposition if this deck with impressive results. AJ Sachers list might be old, but that does not mean the deck is a dead horse being kicked, especially with Boros and Orzhov moving into the scene.

    Quote from Cyberzilla
    Purge the profane is awful. If you want discard just stick with your Liliana or Rakdos's return. Return for x=2 is the same effect, and obviously better with more mana, as well as a burn win condition. Olivia voldaren might have a place in the 75, on a random note.


    Purge the Profane is fantastic in this deck. I can't tell you how often it follows up a Tremblor against aggro to put them into top deck mode with a small life cushion. Rakdos Return is better, but I would rather have the life cushion over the damage, and while it may not be as exponential as RR late game, the meta is comprised of more aggro and midrange than control, which is why it is favored over RR. RR is great in those matches where I need every bit of damage to gri d out an opponent.

    Also, 4 Gideon is truly a LOT. It doesnt have haste, and risks getting hit vefore attacking. Running less would let you drop it at opportube times or sit on one, without worrying about clogging or having to lose card advantage with faithless, in a deck where advantage is important. I would suggest blind obedience for this deck (maybe only 1 or 2, though, the extort is good, but not good enough to run extra.. It helps Gideon considerably, lets you save your wipes until they are more profitable, and the extort is powerful in long games.


    The reason he is a 4 because the deck focuses on removal enough to dropping a 5/5 onto an empty board who can grow without being blown out by a plethora of possible removal, is huge. When an opponent struggles to do damage or retain critters and Gideon lands on turn 4, they are usually forced to strategize on how they are going to remove him. He either starts getting through or forces them into a situation where they have to start diverting their attention to him.

    Gideon is important to the deck on many levels. We know he is good when you have creatures to protect him, because he can start swinging for hefty amounts. We also know that he is good after a sweep because he can beat in for a fair amount of damage on an empty board. We also know that if he is on an empty board, with a decent amount of life putting you out of all in range, that he becomes something that demands action to remove. This deck sheds light on all three of those factors. Early removal and Tremblor mean Gideon is large, live and a big threat. Lingering souls serves as the first approach if need be, allowing him to grow without worry of him just dying. They buy you time to make openings for him to close games. This deck preys on aggro in many ways, and capitalizes on control lacking enough sufficient removal to consistently deal with your threats. Control is where the deck is soft if anything, and that is why I have been working with it. Our meta is primarily comprised of aggro and midrange in comparison to control.

    Blind Obedience is good, I have yet to try it. I originally had it in the board ready to test, but staving off loads of early damage is easy enough without it. It feels as though its best application will fall with the Midrange match to provide steady streams of openings for finishers. But even then, the removal offered to us is great in those matches as well.

    It saddens me that these are the responses I am getting. Not because I don't like input, but because it is input without any actual hands on experience with something I have been testing as extensively as I have.

    That being said, I am comfortable enough saying that my pride and joy UWR Midrange and GW Beats are no longer my deck of choice for SCG Las Vegas coming up as I am comfortable enough with this deck to be piloting it at the event.
  • #8
    I like what you're doing here. A few cards I'd be interested in trying:

    Vampire Nighthawk
    Victim of Night
    Rakdos Keyrune
    Rakdos's Return (maindeck)
  • #9
    Have you thought about playing the Assemble the Legion + Descent into Madness Lock?
  • #10
    Quote from mikeyfresh178
    Have you thought about playing the Assemble the Legion + Descent into Madness Lock?


    That actually sounds really cool but if you can do that... then you've already won the game and killing your opponent is arbitrary at that point right?
    The Heir to Rakdos
  • #11
    I'm interested to see actual results from playtesting. I'm also of the idea that you can possibly squeeze a little more value out of the deck.

    Firstly, mainboard at least one Rakdos' Return. I recommend this to help combat lifegain/draw given by various other x costed spells that are commonly being played right now.

    Unlike people who constantly hate on Purge the Profane, I can understand the value that it gives. I am, however, more so a fan of Mental Agony. The loss of life seems more relevant, all things considered, and is the closest thing to Blightning we have at the moment. As a Grixis Player who played discard against the best U/W had to offer when big papa Jace was in standard, I can see why you're searching for a 2 for 1 that hits the hand.

    Keep 4 Gideon. I'm not sure why other people are so baffled by him, but he is absolutely necessary given your lack of other win conditions.

    I am most specifically curious about your matchups versus Bant control and any form of heavy control.

    Looking forward to following this deck into the future.
  • #12
    Why on earth aren't you playing Aurelia's Fury? Between buying you time, ripping up their board, and leaving you with a massive opening for Gideon to tear them a new one through... it seems like easily one of the best reasons to use this wedge.
  • #13
    Quote from Euphony
    I'm interested to see actual results from playtesting. I'm also of the idea that you can possibly squeeze a little more value out of the deck.

    Firstly, mainboard at least one Rakdos' Return. I recommend this to help combat lifegain/draw given by various other x costed spells that are commonly being played right now.

    Unlike people who constantly hate on Purge the Profane, I can understand the value that it gives. I am, however, more so a fan of Mental Agony. The loss of life seems more relevant, all things considered, and is the closest thing to Blightning we have at the moment. As a Grixis Player who played discard against the best U/W had to offer when big papa Jace was in standard, I can see why you're searching for a 2 for 1 that hits the hand.

    Keep 4 Gideon. I'm not sure why other people are so baffled by him, but he is absolutely necessary given your lack of other win conditions.

    I am most specifically curious about your matchups versus Bant control and any form of heavy control.

    Looking forward to following this deck into the future.


    On Purge the Profane: don't provide enough CA/Lifegain to be competitive
    On Mental Agony: Rakdos's return is still a better option because can be a finisher in late game

    On gideon, champion of justice: 4-of? Too many!
    Can be a 2/3-of but 4 is too much, you must stabilize the board before play it.

    Add sorin, lord of innistrad? token generator...
  • #14
    I agree with a number of the points above. Sorin does seem like a good walker to have in some numbers. His tokens also have lifelink which - if the lifegain off Purge the Profane is relevant, than lifelinky vamps to block with ought to be relevant too. I understand Faithless Looting as card selection, but with a deck that's not taking advantage of the cards you pitch (in most cases) I'd think that something like Sign in Blood might be preferable - just a straight two cards, and you can even dome someone for 2 on occasion if you need the random reach. Seems particularly good say the turn after casting Obzedat (gain 2/they lose 2 when he blinks - SiB, lose 2, draw 2 = win). Also the card advantage could help your game against control some.
  • #15
    Yeah, I had Sorin in for a bit. However, Purge the Profane did an incredible amount of work across the board, much more than Sorin. I can't really convince you guys to play Purge the Profane, but oh well. All I can tell you is how incredible it has been in the list. From crushing overly aggressive aggro to depriving Midrange to neutering control, PtP has been very surprising with its application and efficiency. Where Sorin was often drop a token and continue the grind, PtP is sweep then deny closing with Gideon on and empty board and no cards in their hand is a pretty common way of winning.
  • #16
    Quote from Euphony
    Unlike people who constantly hate on Purge the Profane, I can understand the value that it gives. I am, however, more so a fan of Mental Agony. The loss of life seems more relevant, all things considered, and is the closest thing to Blightning we have at the moment. As a Grixis Player who played discard against the best U/W had to offer when big papa Jace was in standard, I can see why you're searching for a 2 for 1 that hits the hand.


    Are we being trolled here? Other than the R in the casting cost, rakdos's return is *strictly better* than mental agony.

    Yeah, I had Sorin in for a bit. However, Purge the Profane did an incredible amount of work across the board, much more than Sorin. I can't really convince you guys to play Purge the Profane, but oh well. All I can tell you is how incredible it has been in the list. From crushing overly aggressive aggro to depriving Midrange to neutering control, PtP has been very surprising with its application and efficiency. Where Sorin was often drop a token and continue the grind, PtP is sweep then deny closing with Gideon on and empty board and no cards in their hand is a pretty common way of winning.


    I don't really know why you even bothered posting your list here if you aren't going to listen to anyone. purge the profane is a terrible card. do you see ANYBODY playing it? no? it's because it's a terrible card!!! If you can't see that, then I can't take the rest of your deck seriously.
  • #17
    I don't really see purge as a run 4 of me type of card. In a control based build you really should be running 4 appetite for brains or 4 duress before putting in stronger discard like purge or even rakdos returns, plus you got mind rot for one less. I also like knowing what my opponent is playing too. I'd also run sign in blood over faithless here seeing as how you would probably want to cast what you draw instead of discarding it. Maybe if it had a reanimator finish with unburial maybe, but it doesn't seem like you are going in that direction. I would definately put sorin in as a extra way to protect your Gideons. Probably trade 2 Gideons for 2 Sorins. I would also recommend adding some keyrunes and Olivia as well for some added power.
  • #18
    Quote from preppypoof
    I don't really know why you even bothered posting your list here if you aren't going to listen to anyone. purge the profane is a terrible card. do you see ANYBODY playing it? no? it's because it's a terrible card!!! If you can't see that, then I can't take the rest of your deck seriously.


    Tone down the spike there champ. I remember people saying some similar things when I started pushing Izzet Staticaster for UWR Midrange.
  • #19
    Tone down the spike there champ. I remember people saying some similar things when I started pushing Izzet Staticaster for UWR Midrange.


    Except that izzet staticaster can't be compared to a clearly superior card that is still in the colors for your deck.

    Also, I doubt that the opposition against staticaster was as strong, because the reasons it was viable were clear.

    Your argument is that gaining 2 life is better than 2 damage at the same mana cost (which is questionable on it's own), in fact, so much better that it should be played over an x-spell that can discard more if drawn later, and end games on its own.

    I don't know if you have yet, but just test returns in place of purges and then it's pretty clear.

    Sorin conflicts with the wipe plan some, but not enough to prevent running one over one of the Gideons.

    Despite my opposition to these few card choices, I like the deck idea and most of the list. What I'm not sure is that jund or grixis control isn't just better, although obzedat is possibly enough to distinguish it.
    Last edited by Cyberzilla: 2/7/2013 1:13:10 PM
  • #20
    My issue with Purge is the comparison to Rakdos's Return. I get that the life gain makes it a more palatable card against aggro, but you're still probably siding it out, right? I think it makes more sense to play the card that's an A+ versus control or midrange and a D versus aggro (Rakdos's Return) over the card that's a B versus control, a B- versus midrange, and a C- versus aggro (Purge the Profane).

    As far as the overall strategic positioning of this deck, here's the million dollar question: are you just a weird Jund deck? Both decks share a lot of black and red cards. The white and green cards even line up nicely:
    • Orzhov Charm is similar to Abrupt Decay
    • Lingering Souls is similar to Huntmaster
    • Obzedat is similar to Thragtusk

    Noticeably missing is Farseek. Do you feel that the white cards are enough better than the green cards to compensate for Farseek's fixing and ramp?
  • #21
    Quote from malthrin
    My issue with Purge is the comparison to Rakdos's Return. I get that the life gain makes it a more palatable card against aggro, but you're still probably siding it out, right? I think it makes more sense to play the card that's an A+ versus control or midrange and a D versus aggro (Rakdos's Return) over the card that's a B versus control, a B- versus midrange, and a C- versus aggro (Purge the Profane).

    As far as the overall strategic positioning of this deck, here's the million dollar question: are you just a weird Jund deck? Both decks share a lot of black and red cards. The white and green cards even line up nicely:
    • Orzhov Charm is similar to Abrupt Decay
    • Lingering Souls is similar to Huntmaster
    • Obzedat is similar to Thragtusk

    Noticeably missing is Farseek. Do you feel that the white cards are enough better than the green cards to compensate for Farseek's fixing and ramp?


    This is the reason why if we are going to develop the colors we have to show the differential between the colors. These colors haven't developed much due to it's similarities to Jund, Junk and Grixis. This wedge is in my opinion sacrifices some card advantage staples for increased board presence, flexible removal options, and higher damage output. We suprisingly have better finishers than those aformentioned as well except Junk which share both Thragtusk, AoS, and Griselbrand. Viewing these advantages I tend to try to develop it's strengths such as the ability to produce tokens and reanimate just as well as Junk, while carrying powerful aggro and control hosing cards (Pillar, Dreadbore, Slaughter Games, Bonfire and Rakdos' Returns). We lose farseek but like Grixis we still have artifact ramp with our keyrunes, and Gilded Lotus so we aren't that bad off. And even though we don't have Abrupt Decay, Huntmaster and Thragtusk, which are all great cards we still are capable of running the other jund staples like Olivia, Thundermaw and Vampire Nighthawk. We have both Boros and Orzhov Charm in our colors plus the range of running any of their respective early to midrange creatures. I think a very competetive build can arise from these peticular traits but they need to be tooled for these colors advantages against the meta rather than to try and imitate the other similar shards.
  • #22
    Tone down the spike there champ. I remember people saying some similar things when I started pushing Izzet Staticaster for UWR Midrange.


    this is "developing competitive". if you want to make a kitchen table deck, go to a different forum. otherwise, assume that everyone here is a spike.
  • #23
    White offers us a different way to stabilize the board, as well as creatures that are harder to remove than what Jund and Grixis offer. Gideon is a slash and smash body with added bonuses in that he is indestructible, prevents damage to him and he is a 4 drop that can be a 5/5 worst case scenario and larger in the best case scenario. He is usually a hard to remove 5/5 or 7/7. When he is a 7/7 he brings combat to a standstill which is usually what I want on a mucky board.

    White gives us access to Obzedat, a stabilizing creature that is also hard to remove and can help break a stalemate brought on by Gideon or lingering souls.

    I get that Rakdos' Return is an amazing card, and I am not dismissing that, but in those matches where they get in quick, or they start spamming spirit tokens, the lifegain offset is nice to buy a bit more time. RR requires me to already have bought that time when it comes to an aggro or midrange match. We are looking at a 4 drop, not a X drop and the 4 drop needs to offer better stabilization.

    If we are in Jund, we give up the ability to produce hard to remove creatures. If we are in junk, we give up efficiency in removal, and if we are in Grixis, we give up mid game stabilization. They all have their pros and cons, but what has brought me to Dega is the removal and stabilization combined with hard to remove threats.
  • #24
    I just built the deck as posted on the first page and ran it a few games against Naya Humans on Cockatrice.

    Positives: A ton of removal, so you don't get overrun. Obzedat wins if they don't have Selesnya Charm (incidentally, Gideon in creature form also can get whacked by Selesnya Charm...watch out). Did I mention removal? Oh, and more removal.

    Negatives: Faithless Looting was subpar in three games, useful only in one (dug into a Barter in Blood, which stalled the game another couple turns). Purge the Profane is terri-bad against an aggro deck. By the time it can be cast they've already vomited their hand on the field, and you have a four-mana gain two life spell. It was, however, nice having something to pitch to Faithless Looting (usually pitched excess lands, Purge the Profane, or excess Gideons).

    Middlings: Gideon was great when ahead, and terrible in top-deck mode. A second Gideon was often rotting in hand. Late game, aggro can just ignore Gideon and get in there as he can't block (except with his head...kinda...). Also often is probably correct not to flash out Obzedat as he is sometimes the only blocker for Gids. Angel of Serenity was a non-factor.

    Granted this is in four games, so take it all with a grain of salt (four grains really). Against Naya Humans this deck was 2-2. It did not seem favored, but not far behind either. Seems a matter of which side curves out better. Thalia is a headache for this deck, but is the Number 1 target for removal every time. Not a bad deck - but I'm holding to my theory that Sign in Blood is better than Faithless Looting (in this deck), and that Purge the Profane is not what you want to be doing...at most, Mind Rot so it comes down sooner and you have a chance of hitting something. Off the top I'd ditch a Gideon for a Sorin, Olivia (probably two) in for Purge the Profane, and Sign in Bloods straight up for Faithless Looting. This might require tweaking the mana base slightly - I don't have time to try the changes right now.

    Take it all as you will. But hey, I actually tried it, so there's that. Smile

    btw, what's up with the name Dega Control? I don't get it. Grin
    Last edited by theroguewriter: 2/7/2013 2:54:38 PM
  • #25
    I love Dega and I assembled a control list in these colors as well.

    I love the deck, and had some success with it at our local FNM.

    This is what I ran:

    Basslinez821's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Land:
    4 Blood Crypt
    1 Clifftop Retreat
    4 Dragonskull Summit
    4 Godless Shrine
    4 Isolated Chapel
    2 Sacred Foundry
    6 Swamp

    Creatures:
    1 Griselbrand
    2 Olivia Voldaren
    1 Obzedat, Ghost Council

    Spells:
    2 Aurelia's Fury
    2 Bonfire of the Damned
    2 Rakdos's Return
    2 Dreadbore
    4 Lingering Souls
    2 Merciless Eviction
    2 Terminus
    1 Mutiliate
    2 Oblivion Ring
    4 Sign in Blood
    2 Ultimate Price
    2 Slaughter Games

    Planeswalkers:
    2 Liliana of the Dark Realms
    2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad



    I found the deck to be very enjoyable if a bit durdly. I know 2 Slaughter Games in the main seems odd, but in playtesting worked better than anticipated so I kept them.
    EDH:
    RRRKamahl, Pit FighterRRR
    Standard:
    RRRRDWRRR
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