Ive been busy with family stuff but im gonna start grinding this archetype a lot when I get back. I'll try and summarize all the discussion points in one place too for any newcomers. A lot of cards have been mentioned multiple times and what's good will depend on how the meta develops more than anything
Good.
Well here's my thoughts at any rate - mostly agree with you. I address the first part to the forum at large and the last part at Bonerfleximus.
@everybody
Bant Enchant is a deck that is all about resilience. Refer to Metamorph's official "How to Build Better Decks" thread for the full scoop but the part that I'm referencing is here:
Resilience is the compliment of interactivity. It is a measure of how difficult your deck is to effectively interact with. An effective interaction is one where the answer was efficient (in terms of mana AND cards spent) and timely (played in a relevant time frame). Resilient threats are hard to effectively interact with. Your opponent's ability to answer them is limited.
You are playing threats that are both powerful and difficult to interact with. Invisible Stalker is a key part of the concept because it is so hard to deal with. Auras are what make the Stalker powerful. This is how you win when you play Bant Enchant. Later in the same guide Metamorph urges you to ask yourself:
"is it obvious how this deck wins?" If not, scrap it. A random pile of cards (even good cards) with no plan is not a good deck. Remember that many good plans are pretty simple. But you have to be realistic. If your plan is unrealistic the deck is probably a failure.
The win condition for Bant Enchant - in a nutshell - cast some combination of auras on a hexproof creature which races to victory. That's your basic plan. That's how you win games. With Invisible Stalker and a few Ethereal Armors it's simple to envision and difficult for your opponent to stop. I think that most of us agree about the basic structure of the deck.
From there you have some very logical supporting steps but also a few difficult decisions. The supporting steps are to include more hexproof creatures and more enchantments. The challenge is to make the concept consistent, powerful, and cohesive. Geist of Saint Traft is an obvious next step. As a hexproof creature he fits the theme and he's simply a powerful guy. Unfortunately he's not unblockable so you need to have a way to get him through.
Following from that - Feeling of Dread is a spell that can remove blockers and can also double as a defensive measure. It is an excellent tempo play.
So is this a tempo deck? Here is another passage from the guide by Metamorph:
General Aggro Archetype: "play too many threats too quickly for my opponent to deal with them all before his life total has been reduced to zero."
General Control Archetype: "prevent my opponent from executing his game plan. Then, when my opponent cannot defeat me anymore play a threat that my opponent cannot answer and win with it."
General Combo Archetype: "assemble a combination of two specific cards as quickly as possible. the two cards, in combination, will produce an effect so overwhelmingly powerful that my opponent will lose to it."
Well it's clearly not aggro. I would call it a combo but it's a broad combination that relies not so much on specific cards as on a category of effects that is duplicated within a pool of cards. I think that gives us some latitude to try out a few different answers but aggro can probably be ruled out because some parts of the deck are nearly useless without other parts. Too much of the deck is dedicated to threats that aren't particularly threatening in and of themselves.
Now let's say you did add some aggro-themed threats to the deck. You might still win games because the core combination is still present. You might even start to think that the deck would be even better if you cut out the Invisible Stalkers. At that point you're no longer playing Bant Enchant.
Still - is it a tempo deck? I think it probably should be. I believe that the Geist of Saint Traft is powerful enough that the right answer is to build around him as a secondary win condition. If you're able to swing with him and keep him alive then he's your secondary win condition. The aforementioned Feeling of Dread and Inaction Injunction each play toward that end and Oblivion Ring and Detention Sphere - cards that would probably see play in any case - fit that purpose as well by removing threats from the field. There's just one little problem - being that Ethereal Armor scales up in power as you add more enchantments. Inaction Injunction is a good tempo play but it's not an enchantment. As a cantrip however it does potentially draw into an enchantment. That's pretty important.
The other avenue that seems to make sense is to play this as a control deck. You can play miracles, counterspells and a decent suite of creature control if you'd like. The advantage of that approach is that you can lead toward Rogue's Passage as a win condition but you're not necessarily going to be alive at that point if you're facing off against a quality aggro or mid-range deck. The problem is that you've already got 12 cards at a minimum tied up in your Invisible Stalker combo and you need to prioritize enchantments as well or else your Ethereal Armor is little more than a glorified Lance. You're not going to do control as well as a real control deck would do it. Of course you could say the same thing about trying to play this as a tempo deck except that tempo decks don't necessarily benchmark against each other so much as that they just need to work until all of the beats are delivered.
@Bonerfleximus
I think that Knight of Glory has a significant number of advantages over Elvish Visionary that warrant playing it instead.
I think that Inaction Injunction is strictly weaker than Feeling of Dread and I feel that it's more aggressive than need be. Since Feeling of Dread can be used twice and is really only useful on the Geist I don't see the need for Inaction Injunction. The cantrip play is the best part about it and I don't feel that it's worthy of being called card advantage. Cantripping into a better card is good of course but using that mana toward a 1/1 creature or a negligible detention is also a lost opportunity cost that may not be worth the effort when there are other cards that outclass it in an absolute sense.
I think that Divine Reckoning is a sideboard card. Ajani, Caller of the Pride is a difficult call because the doublestrike is so powerful but you have a problem of numbers. As a 2 of card I feel that this is not going to show up consistently enough. As a 3 or 4 of I worry that the hand will get cluttered up with copies that aren't going to get used.
Good.
Well here's my thoughts at any rate - mostly agree with you. I address the first part to the forum at large and the last part at Bonerfleximus.
@everybody
Bant Enchant is a deck that is all about resilience. Refer to Metamorph's official "How to Build Better Decks" thread for the full scoop but the part that I'm referencing is here:
You are playing threats that are both powerful and difficult to interact with. Invisible Stalker is a key part of the concept because it is so hard to deal with. Auras are what make the Stalker powerful. This is how you win when you play Bant Enchant. Later in the same guide Metamorph urges you to ask yourself:
The win condition for Bant Enchant - in a nutshell - cast some combination of auras on a hexproof creature which races to victory. That's your basic plan. That's how you win games. With Invisible Stalker and a few Ethereal Armors it's simple to envision and difficult for your opponent to stop. I think that most of us agree about the basic structure of the deck.
From there you have some very logical supporting steps but also a few difficult decisions. The supporting steps are to include more hexproof creatures and more enchantments. The challenge is to make the concept consistent, powerful, and cohesive. Geist of Saint Traft is an obvious next step. As a hexproof creature he fits the theme and he's simply a powerful guy. Unfortunately he's not unblockable so you need to have a way to get him through.
Following from that - Feeling of Dread is a spell that can remove blockers and can also double as a defensive measure. It is an excellent tempo play.
So is this a tempo deck? Here is another passage from the guide by Metamorph:
Well it's clearly not aggro. I would call it a combo but it's a broad combination that relies not so much on specific cards as on a category of effects that is duplicated within a pool of cards. I think that gives us some latitude to try out a few different answers but aggro can probably be ruled out because some parts of the deck are nearly useless without other parts. Too much of the deck is dedicated to threats that aren't particularly threatening in and of themselves.
Now let's say you did add some aggro-themed threats to the deck. You might still win games because the core combination is still present. You might even start to think that the deck would be even better if you cut out the Invisible Stalkers. At that point you're no longer playing Bant Enchant.
Still - is it a tempo deck? I think it probably should be. I believe that the Geist of Saint Traft is powerful enough that the right answer is to build around him as a secondary win condition. If you're able to swing with him and keep him alive then he's your secondary win condition. The aforementioned Feeling of Dread and Inaction Injunction each play toward that end and Oblivion Ring and Detention Sphere - cards that would probably see play in any case - fit that purpose as well by removing threats from the field. There's just one little problem - being that Ethereal Armor scales up in power as you add more enchantments. Inaction Injunction is a good tempo play but it's not an enchantment. As a cantrip however it does potentially draw into an enchantment. That's pretty important.
The other avenue that seems to make sense is to play this as a control deck. You can play miracles, counterspells and a decent suite of creature control if you'd like. The advantage of that approach is that you can lead toward Rogue's Passage as a win condition but you're not necessarily going to be alive at that point if you're facing off against a quality aggro or mid-range deck. The problem is that you've already got 12 cards at a minimum tied up in your Invisible Stalker combo and you need to prioritize enchantments as well or else your Ethereal Armor is little more than a glorified Lance. You're not going to do control as well as a real control deck would do it. Of course you could say the same thing about trying to play this as a tempo deck except that tempo decks don't necessarily benchmark against each other so much as that they just need to work until all of the beats are delivered.
@Bonerfleximus
I think that Knight of Glory has a significant number of advantages over Elvish Visionary that warrant playing it instead.
I think that Inaction Injunction is strictly weaker than Feeling of Dread and I feel that it's more aggressive than need be. Since Feeling of Dread can be used twice and is really only useful on the Geist I don't see the need for Inaction Injunction. The cantrip play is the best part about it and I don't feel that it's worthy of being called card advantage. Cantripping into a better card is good of course but using that mana toward a 1/1 creature or a negligible detention is also a lost opportunity cost that may not be worth the effort when there are other cards that outclass it in an absolute sense.
I think that Divine Reckoning is a sideboard card. Ajani, Caller of the Pride is a difficult call because the doublestrike is so powerful but you have a problem of numbers. As a 2 of card I feel that this is not going to show up consistently enough. As a 3 or 4 of I worry that the hand will get cluttered up with copies that aren't going to get used.
Excellent post and as I said I think the cards we want will depend on the meta.
Pillar of flame is by far the most popular removal spell
n the top 16 of all major standard events so far, which is why I'm not 100% all in on knight of glory.
Elvish visionary is deceptively good because we really need cantripss to draw into our main gameplan which is to drop he proof beaters and pump them up. You can combine them with rancor to get a decent body on the board and situation ally put an ethics armor on him and only risk a 1:1.
I agree with you about inaction injunction and most of my play testing in the past week have been without it and instead using restoration angel.
I think abundant growth and GoST are core to the deck in addition to the cards you mentioned.
I can't fathom playing the deck without ajani honestly. Its not a consistent wincon but he's also not required to win. Having two in the deck feels like the perfect amount.
Just having him in the deck opens up explosive lines of play that flat out wins games similar to a miracle bonfire in an agro mirror match.
Edit: typing this all on a cellphone, apologies for grammar/spelling errors.
I don't buy in to Serra Avenger because it is the only creature in your deck that is susceptible to creature control and therefore will be the sole focus of all of it.
I think you'd be better off with Spectral Flight on a hexproof creature, or by finding some other means to deal with flying creatures.
One other thing - why wouldn't you play Rogue's Passage instead of Gavony Township? Gavony is a lot of mana to sink into what is probably going to be a just a single +1/+1 counter. Rogue's Passage could allow the Geist to attack unimpeded and get you the angel token trigger.
@ Bonerfleximus
I defer to you on this with the exception of that I have my doubts about Restoration Angel - similar to my doubts about Serra Avenger. At least with Resto you can save a creature from boardwipe, re-trigger the Visionary (for those running him) and take advantage of 1 extra toughness.
I don't buy in to Serra Avenger because it is the only creature in your deck that is susceptible to creature control and therefore will be the sole focus of all of it.
I think you'd be better off with Spectral Flight on a hexproof creature, or by finding some other means to deal with flying creatures.
One other thing - why wouldn't you play Rogue's Passage instead of Gavony Township? Gavony is a lot of mana to sink into what is probably going to be a just a single +1/+1 counter. Rogue's Passage could allow the Geist to attack unimpeded and get you the angel token trigger.
@ Bonerfleximus
I defer to you on this with the exception of that I have my doubts about Restoration Angel - similar to my doubts about Serra Avenger. At least with Resto you can save a creature from boardwipe, re-trigger the Visionary (for those running him) and take advantage of 1 extra toughness.
I can't say I'm 100% sold on resto either but she's the best option I've found. She fills the following gaps for this deck:
Hard removal against attacking creatures
Evasion for geist while he's attacking
Recovery from board wipe during opponents turn
Cantrips when visionary is in play
Evasive body that can hit the board and dodge all sorcery speed removal for at least one attack
Overlooked the second point. That's worthy of consideration.
If i'm not overlooking anything else then i think that brings you and i very close together. I could easily replace sigarda (with 3 restoration angels and we would then be only 8 cards apart.
My package of 8:
4x bonds of faith
4x knight of glory
Your package of 8:
2x Ajani
2x divine reckoning
4x elvish visionary
im not liking visionary. i dont think more cantrips are necessary. i think ensuring early land drops is much more important. that said, i'd rather have gatecreeper vine or borderland ranger in that role.. and even then, i wouldn't want neither.
I think centaur healer and mwonluvi beast tracker deserve some testing. beast tracker as a 2 of has been very strong. allows me to play a singleton sigarda in the list and i can search for whatever versatile threat i need at any given time...
centaur healer is to help stem against the aggro matchups. 3/3 body is relevant. I also run at least 3 azorius charms
Reasoning Knight: Too many decks have answers to this for it to be main. Too many decks lose to it to not have it in the side. Negate: cheapest weapon we have against control. Until I see Supreme Verdict obtains complete dominance over planeswallers, Terminus, and bonfire, negate is my go to boy. Wolfir: Aggro stuffer. We have some strict creature requirements. This guy just barely fits the bill, but he's good at what we need him for. Regeneration gives this guy the nod over Loxodon Smiter and Centaur Healer Fog: Time Walk against zombies and aggro. The key to our deck is zero interaction. If they can't affect you or your board and you are bashing with an unstoppable 5/3, every turn is another turn in which they did nothing and you did damage. Cheaper and more reliable than the lifelink that Azorius Charm brings to the table. Rest in Peace: meaty enchantment against zombies and reanimator. Feeling of dread: Tempo the snot out of creature decks. Essence scatter: For jund-style midrange only. I don't like playing this, but bad guy slamming multiple Thragtusk makes for a near impossible race. Best answer is to keep him off the field.
Reasoning Knight: Too many decks have answers to this for it to be main. Too many decks lose to it to not have it in the side. Negate: cheapest weapon we have against control. Until I see Supreme Verdict obtains complete dominance over planeswallers, Terminus, and bonfire, negate is my go to boy. Wolfir: Aggro stuffer. We have some strict creature requirements. This guy just barely fits the bill, but he's good at what we need him for. Regeneration gives this guy the nod over Loxodon Smiter and Centaur Healer Fog: Time Walk against zombies and aggro. The key to our deck is zero interaction. If they can't affect you or your board and you are bashing with an unstoppable 5/3, every turn is another turn in which they did nothing and you did damage. Cheaper and more reliable than the lifelink that Azorius Charm brings to the table. Rest in Peace: meaty enchantment against zombies and reanimator. Feeling of dread: Tempo the snot out of creature decks. Essence scatter: For jund-style midrange only. I don't like playing this, but bad guy slamming multiple Thragtusk makes for a near impossible race. Best answer is to keep him off the field.
knight of glory and fog seem like great sideboard additions especially since i believe rakdos and zombie variants are our toughest matchups. this deck like you mention, wants zero interaction. we just resolve the unblockable stalker, and go to town regardless of how we get there. (usually for me its rancor+ armor or increasing savagery... which is crazy in terms of inevitability)/
TLDR I like your sideboard.Anyone test with Divine reckoning? I feel like it should be good, but maybe its too slow/cute?
Well Liliana just single-handedly beat me. I was never able to swing into her for damage, O-Ringed her TWICE and both times the O-Ring was eliminated with Abrupt Decay. It wasn't the deck's fault. I got Invisible Stalker, Knight of Glory and Geist of Saint Traft, a few enchantments and two O-Rings. Normally I'd say that's a game that Bant Enchant will win.
I won the re-match pretty easily but then she didn't show up that time.
This is my take on the deck after some testing tonight. I started with the build listed by Illinest and made changes based on how my games were going. My meta is very very G/W aggro heavy.
This deck takes off crazy fast as has been yielding t4-5 wins almost every game. In my trial testing with B/G zombies and 3 different variations of G/W aggro, this deck went 8-1, my only loss due to mana screw. Overall very happy with my playtest, I look forward to running this list at FNM this week.
In 3 of the games, once I dropped either Sigarda or Thrag, my opponent just scooped and we went to game 2. This says a lot for the deck.
One thing to add to what everyone else has been saying...I too am not convinced on Elvish Visionary. We need to be constantly dropping threats...not cantripping with our creatures. Constantly dropping threats late game just makes aggro decks lose...ours are a lot bigger
Well Liliana just single-handedly beat me. I was never able to swing into her for damage, O-Ringed her TWICE and both times the O-Ring was eliminated with Abrupt Decay. It wasn't the deck's fault. I got Invisible Stalker, Knight of Glory and Geist of Saint Traft, a few enchantments and two O-Rings. Normally I'd say that's a game that Bant Enchant will win.
I won the re-match pretty easily but then she didn't show up that time.
one of the people i play with is adamant about bant hexproof and when we playtest, i tend to use a variety of decks to try and beat it. i think people are really sleeping on this deck. once we find a way to even out the aggro matchup in game 1s, we are definitely going to be the deck to beat.
HOWEVER, the one color that really owns this deck is black. lilia, tribute to hunger (which is backbreaking very often), mutilate, curse of death's hold and barter in blood. these are all real threats that if bant hexproof becomes big, these decks will play.
One of the ways to really play around these answers post game 1 is to have a few loxodon smiters to come in for whatever AND to start main decking more sigardas. sigarda is generally better than black (sans vampire nightawk, which is moot once u have an ethereal armor on sigarda).
just some solutions that we've come up with lately. i think against decks that run sac outlets and lili, u can't play the matchup how u do with others. u can'tjust put enchantments on and swing anymore. u have to play smarter. Sure, turn 4 increasing savagery on a geist or stalker is usually good game. but tribute to hunger REALLY messes that plan up. then late game, once curse of death's hold hits the board, u need detention sphere or else the game is jsut out of reach.
one of the people i play with is adamant about bant hexproof and when we playtest, i tend to use a variety of decks to try and beat it. i think people are really sleeping on this deck. once we find a way to even out the aggro matchup in game 1s, we are definitely going to be the deck to beat.
HOWEVER, the one color that really owns this deck is black. lilia, tribute to hunger (which is backbreaking very often), mutilate, curse of death's hold and barter in blood. these are all real threats that if bant hexproof becomes big, these decks will play.
One of the ways to really play around these answers post game 1 is to have a few loxodon smiters to come in for whatever AND to start main decking more sigardas. sigarda is generally better than black (sans vampire nightawk, which is moot once u have an ethereal armor on sigarda).
just some solutions that we've come up with lately. i think against decks that run sac outlets and lili, u can't play the matchup how u do with others. u can'tjust put enchantments on and swing anymore. u have to play smarter. Sure, turn 4 increasing savagery on a geist or stalker is usually good game. but tribute to hunger REALLY messes that plan up. then late game, once curse of death's hold hits the board, u need detention sphere or else the game is jsut out of reach.
I still think that the tempo style has more potential overall but my control build would shrug off stuff like that. I played 4 syncopate, 2 dissipate and a full complement of O-Ring and Detention Sphere. If I ever O-Ringed Liliana she'd STAY O-Ringed guldarnit!
I still think that the tempo style has more potential overall but my control build would shrug off stuff like that. I played 4 syncopate, 2 dissipate and a full complement of O-Ring and Detention Sphere. If I ever O-Ringed Liliana she'd STAY O-Ringed guldarnit!
debatable. duress pretty much makes sure balck players land lilis and keep them on the board.. at least till they make u discard a few or force u to sac a threat... tribute to hunger is crazy too.
Been following this thread ever since the Standard season started and was seriously looking into making this deck after our first local fnm standard event where everyone brought what they had been brewing and what they most likely will run Gameday. My token deck fell short do to targeting and noticed most decks in the meta are running creature removal.
I have been testing against Grites, Rakdos Wins, and Izzet Delver and so far have been taking games either 2-1 or 2-0. Hardest match up has been Izzet Delver due to the counters but most creature removal beyond a bonfire or overloaded mizzium motors have been dead cards. Every time my opponent was able to play bonfire or mizzium motors my hexproof guy was well out of range of dying.
Going to playtest against G/W Midrange decks soon as the meta here is filled with Thragtusk and friends.
im not liking visionary. i dont think more cantrips are necessary. i think ensuring early land drops is much more important. that said, i'd rather have gatecreeper vine or borderland ranger in that role.. and even then, i wouldn't want neither.
I think centaur healer and mwonluvi beast tracker deserve some testing. beast tracker as a 2 of has been very strong. allows me to play a singleton sigarda in the list and i can search for whatever versatile threat i need at any given time...
centaur healer is to help stem against the aggro matchups. 3/3 body is relevant. I also run at least 3 azorius charms
Ya I will try the beast tracker. He's not card advantage by any means, but one of the major points of cantripping is to draw into hexproof threats and beast tracker almost gaurantees you'll get what you want the next turn. He would also let me run a singleton sigarda which I like the idea of, thanks for pointing that out.
I see centaur healer as more for decks that run dorks but again, worthy of consideration.
Something else that might be worthy of consideration is Wolfir Avenger. He's not hexproof but if you flash him in at the end of turn 3 he survives a lot of the most common removal spells.
I'd really like to get a group of us together to try out different versions of this deck for FNM and post results, matchups, meta assessments, etc...
Overlooked the second point. That's worthy of consideration.
If i'm not overlooking anything else then i think that brings you and i very close together. I could easily replace sigarda (with 3 restoration angels and we would then be only 8 cards apart.
My package of 8:
4x bonds of faith
4x knight of glory
Your package of 8:
2x Ajani
2x divine reckoning
4x elvish visionary
My latest iterations have not been running Divine Reckoning in the mainboard, instead I have 2x Negate. The shop near my house is littered with control players.
For FNM I might switch back to divine reckoning because that shop is 90% agro.
Reasoning Knight: Too many decks have answers to this for it to be main. Too many decks lose to it to not have it in the side. Negate: cheapest weapon we have against control. Until I see Supreme Verdict obtains complete dominance over planeswallers, Terminus, and bonfire, negate is my go to boy. Wolfir: Aggro stuffer. We have some strict creature requirements. This guy just barely fits the bill, but he's good at what we need him for. Regeneration gives this guy the nod over Loxodon Smiter and Centaur Healer Fog: Time Walk against zombies and aggro. The key to our deck is zero interaction. If they can't affect you or your board and you are bashing with an unstoppable 5/3, every turn is another turn in which they did nothing and you did damage. Cheaper and more reliable than the lifelink that Azorius Charm brings to the table. Rest in Peace: meaty enchantment against zombies and reanimator. Feeling of dread: Tempo the snot out of creature decks. Essence scatter: For jund-style midrange only. I don't like playing this, but bad guy slamming multiple Thragtusk makes for a near impossible race. Best answer is to keep him off the field.
I like safe passage more than fog. I know it costs more to cast, but it gives you a lot more options.
I've honestly found feeling of dread to be adequate most of the time, with divine reckoning in the sideboard.
I don't have many problems against lifegain to be honest. Our damage output grows almost exponentially the more cards we draw. Thragtusk lifegain is better against linear damage strategies with no evasion like zombies. We usually overwhelm any lifegain with this deck. I had a game teh other day against a dredge deck where he gained close to 50 life with 2x Gnaw to the bone but I still won. I had him down to 9 and was swinging for 6, then 9, then 12, etc... My final swing was with Ajani for over 30 damage.
This is my take on the deck after some testing tonight. I started with the build listed by Illinest and made changes based on how my games were going. My meta is very very G/W aggro heavy.
This deck takes off crazy fast as has been yielding t4-5 wins almost every game. In my trial testing with B/G zombies and 3 different variations of G/W aggro, this deck went 8-1, my only loss due to mana screw. Overall very happy with my playtest, I look forward to running this list at FNM this week.
In 3 of the games, once I dropped either Sigarda or Thrag, my opponent just scooped and we went to game 2. This says a lot for the deck.
One thing to add to what everyone else has been saying...I too am not convinced on Elvish Visionary. We need to be constantly dropping threats...not cantripping with our creatures. Constantly dropping threats late game just makes aggro decks lose...ours are a lot bigger
I can see how your deck would do well in certain metas. In my area I can't imagine anyone scooping to a sigarda/thragtusk unless they're really bad players or are getting mana screwed. I switch between an agro-heavy meta to a control-heavy meta throughout the week so I have to make my deck somewhat balanced and the cantrips improve the consistency.
- Tempo is nice, but without the elf we dont draw enough cards. In theory we will almost never have the ultimate curve.
So in my experience with testing i've had enough games where u get about 2/3 creatures in hand in 8 turns.
So i decided to include Elvish Visionary, Abundant Growth, Jace, Azorius Charm to help us draw what little creatures we have and MAKE them count. Also we can easily get backups this way. If ppl play a lot of removal (control) then we can board in the beast tracker.
I'm going to try playtesting with a couple beast trackers tonight. We want to draw our hexproof bros and beast tracker almost gaurantees you'll get one that you want.
Jace seems ok too but I don't know if we have enough removal to keep him alive. If you're using him for card advantage he will often end up being a crappy Amass the Components for one turn.
Been following this thread ever since the Standard season started and was seriously looking into making this deck after our first local fnm standard event where everyone brought what they had been brewing and what they most likely will run Gameday. My token deck fell short do to targeting and noticed most decks in the meta are running creature removal.
I have been testing against Grites, Rakdos Wins, and Izzet Delver and so far have been taking games either 2-1 or 2-0. Hardest match up has been Izzet Delver due to the counters but most creature removal beyond a bonfire or overloaded mizzium motors have been dead cards. Every time my opponent was able to play bonfire or mizzium motors my hexproof guy was well out of range of dying.
Going to playtest against G/W Midrange decks soon as the meta here is filled with Thragtusk and friends.
Ya counter-heavy decks can be tough which is why its important to have access to 4 negates in your 75.
Bonds of Faith - Enhances Invisible stalker or pacifism for non-humans
Mwonvuli Beast Tracker with singleton Sigarda - gaurantees ability to draw into hexproof threat and allows singleton Sigarda strat
Silverblade Paladin - can be paired with the GoSt Angel each swing and provides a strong blocker with doublestrike.
Knight of Glory in Mainboard - great against Zombies / Jund removal cards bar Pillar of Flame. Also unblockable against Zombies.
Wolfir Avenger - Resilient creature that can be flashed in on turn 3. Higher risk of being 2-for-1'd than hexproof but gives a lot of needed utility and can survive most sweepers.
Seems pretty solid, although I'm surprised if this could consistently hold its own against Azorius Aggro with its speed and all of the first strikers.
Wow that's amazing, I wish we could get the pilot to contribute some of his thoughts here. Do you know how many people played in Hawaii States?
edit: Some googling shows that there were 56 attendees at HI states, not bad. The pilot's name was Ryan Harada, he won HI states last year too. Their top 8 list can be viewed on TCGPlayer to see what kind of competition he had. He finished with 14 points which means 4-0-2 record and there were 3 people with 14 points so I suspect there was some drawing/prize splitting going on but there's no way to be sure.
Good.
Well here's my thoughts at any rate - mostly agree with you. I address the first part to the forum at large and the last part at Bonerfleximus.
@everybody
Bant Enchant is a deck that is all about resilience. Refer to Metamorph's official "How to Build Better Decks" thread for the full scoop but the part that I'm referencing is here:
You are playing threats that are both powerful and difficult to interact with. Invisible Stalker is a key part of the concept because it is so hard to deal with. Auras are what make the Stalker powerful. This is how you win when you play Bant Enchant. Later in the same guide Metamorph urges you to ask yourself:
The win condition for Bant Enchant - in a nutshell - cast some combination of auras on a hexproof creature which races to victory. That's your basic plan. That's how you win games. With Invisible Stalker and a few Ethereal Armors it's simple to envision and difficult for your opponent to stop. I think that most of us agree about the basic structure of the deck.
4x Rancor
4x Ethereal Armor
22x Lands
From there you have some very logical supporting steps but also a few difficult decisions. The supporting steps are to include more hexproof creatures and more enchantments. The challenge is to make the concept consistent, powerful, and cohesive.
Geist of Saint Traft is an obvious next step. As a hexproof creature he fits the theme and he's simply a powerful guy. Unfortunately he's not unblockable so you need to have a way to get him through.
Following from that - Feeling of Dread is a spell that can remove blockers and can also double as a defensive measure. It is an excellent tempo play.
So is this a tempo deck? Here is another passage from the guide by Metamorph:
Well it's clearly not aggro. I would call it a combo but it's a broad combination that relies not so much on specific cards as on a category of effects that is duplicated within a pool of cards. I think that gives us some latitude to try out a few different answers but aggro can probably be ruled out because some parts of the deck are nearly useless without other parts. Too much of the deck is dedicated to threats that aren't particularly threatening in and of themselves.
Now let's say you did add some aggro-themed threats to the deck. You might still win games because the core combination is still present. You might even start to think that the deck would be even better if you cut out the Invisible Stalkers. At that point you're no longer playing Bant Enchant.
Still - is it a tempo deck? I think it probably should be. I believe that the Geist of Saint Traft is powerful enough that the right answer is to build around him as a secondary win condition. If you're able to swing with him and keep him alive then he's your secondary win condition. The aforementioned Feeling of Dread and Inaction Injunction each play toward that end and Oblivion Ring and Detention Sphere - cards that would probably see play in any case - fit that purpose as well by removing threats from the field. There's just one little problem - being that Ethereal Armor scales up in power as you add more enchantments. Inaction Injunction is a good tempo play but it's not an enchantment. As a cantrip however it does potentially draw into an enchantment. That's pretty important.
The other avenue that seems to make sense is to play this as a control deck. You can play miracles, counterspells and a decent suite of creature control if you'd like. The advantage of that approach is that you can lead toward Rogue's Passage as a win condition but you're not necessarily going to be alive at that point if you're facing off against a quality aggro or mid-range deck. The problem is that you've already got 12 cards at a minimum tied up in your Invisible Stalker combo and you need to prioritize enchantments as well or else your Ethereal Armor is little more than a glorified Lance. You're not going to do control as well as a real control deck would do it. Of course you could say the same thing about trying to play this as a tempo deck except that tempo decks don't necessarily benchmark against each other so much as that they just need to work until all of the beats are delivered.
@Bonerfleximus
I think that Knight of Glory has a significant number of advantages over Elvish Visionary that warrant playing it instead.
I think that Inaction Injunction is strictly weaker than Feeling of Dread and I feel that it's more aggressive than need be. Since Feeling of Dread can be used twice and is really only useful on the Geist I don't see the need for Inaction Injunction. The cantrip play is the best part about it and I don't feel that it's worthy of being called card advantage. Cantripping into a better card is good of course but using that mana toward a 1/1 creature or a negligible detention is also a lost opportunity cost that may not be worth the effort when there are other cards that outclass it in an absolute sense.
I think that Divine Reckoning is a sideboard card.
Ajani, Caller of the Pride is a difficult call because the doublestrike is so powerful but you have a problem of numbers. As a 2 of card I feel that this is not going to show up consistently enough. As a 3 or 4 of I worry that the hand will get cluttered up with copies that aren't going to get used.
Excellent post and as I said I think the cards we want will depend on the meta.
Pillar of flame is by far the most popular removal spell
n the top 16 of all major standard events so far, which is why I'm not 100% all in on knight of glory.
Elvish visionary is deceptively good because we really need cantripss to draw into our main gameplan which is to drop he proof beaters and pump them up. You can combine them with rancor to get a decent body on the board and situation ally put an ethics armor on him and only risk a 1:1.
I agree with you about inaction injunction and most of my play testing in the past week have been without it and instead using restoration angel.
I think abundant growth and GoST are core to the deck in addition to the cards you mentioned.
I can't fathom playing the deck without ajani honestly. Its not a consistent wincon but he's also not required to win. Having two in the deck feels like the perfect amount.
Just having him in the deck opens up explosive lines of play that flat out wins games similar to a miracle bonfire in an agro mirror match.
Edit: typing this all on a cellphone, apologies for grammar/spelling errors.
I don't buy in to Serra Avenger because it is the only creature in your deck that is susceptible to creature control and therefore will be the sole focus of all of it.
I think you'd be better off with Spectral Flight on a hexproof creature, or by finding some other means to deal with flying creatures.
One other thing - why wouldn't you play Rogue's Passage instead of Gavony Township? Gavony is a lot of mana to sink into what is probably going to be a just a single +1/+1 counter. Rogue's Passage could allow the Geist to attack unimpeded and get you the angel token trigger.
@ Bonerfleximus
I defer to you on this with the exception of that I have my doubts about Restoration Angel - similar to my doubts about Serra Avenger. At least with Resto you can save a creature from boardwipe, re-trigger the Visionary (for those running him) and take advantage of 1 extra toughness.
I can't say I'm 100% sold on resto either but she's the best option I've found. She fills the following gaps for this deck:
Hard removal against attacking creatures
Evasion for geist while he's attacking
Recovery from board wipe during opponents turn
Cantrips when visionary is in play
Evasive body that can hit the board and dodge all sorcery speed removal for at least one attack
If i'm not overlooking anything else then i think that brings you and i very close together. I could easily replace sigarda (with 3 restoration angels and we would then be only 8 cards apart.
My package of 8:
4x bonds of faith
4x knight of glory
Your package of 8:
2x Ajani
2x divine reckoning
4x elvish visionary
I think centaur healer and mwonluvi beast tracker deserve some testing. beast tracker as a 2 of has been very strong. allows me to play a singleton sigarda in the list and i can search for whatever versatile threat i need at any given time...
centaur healer is to help stem against the aggro matchups. 3/3 body is relevant. I also run at least 3 azorius charms
3 Knight of Glory
3 Fog
2 Negate (2 Main)
2 Rest in Peace
1 Feeling of Dread (2 Main)
2 Wolfir Avenger
2 Essence Scatter
Reasoning
Knight: Too many decks have answers to this for it to be main. Too many decks lose to it to not have it in the side.
Negate: cheapest weapon we have against control. Until I see Supreme Verdict obtains complete dominance over planeswallers, Terminus, and bonfire, negate is my go to boy.
Wolfir: Aggro stuffer. We have some strict creature requirements. This guy just barely fits the bill, but he's good at what we need him for. Regeneration gives this guy the nod over Loxodon Smiter and Centaur Healer
Fog: Time Walk against zombies and aggro. The key to our deck is zero interaction. If they can't affect you or your board and you are bashing with an unstoppable 5/3, every turn is another turn in which they did nothing and you did damage. Cheaper and more reliable than the lifelink that Azorius Charm brings to the table.
Rest in Peace: meaty enchantment against zombies and reanimator.
Feeling of dread: Tempo the snot out of creature decks.
Essence scatter: For jund-style midrange only. I don't like playing this, but bad guy slamming multiple Thragtusk makes for a near impossible race. Best answer is to keep him off the field.
knight of glory and fog seem like great sideboard additions especially since i believe rakdos and zombie variants are our toughest matchups. this deck like you mention, wants zero interaction. we just resolve the unblockable stalker, and go to town regardless of how we get there. (usually for me its rancor+ armor or increasing savagery... which is crazy in terms of inevitability)/
TLDR I like your sideboard.Anyone test with Divine reckoning? I feel like it should be good, but maybe its too slow/cute?
I won the re-match pretty easily but then she didn't show up that time.
3x Rancor
3x Ethereal Armor
3x Spectral Flight
3x Detention Sphere
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Abundant Growth
Instants (5)
3x Feeling of Dread
2x Azorius Charm
Creatures (15)
3x Silverblade Paladin
4x Invisible Stalker
4x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Thragtusk
2x Sigarda, Host of Herons
4x Temple Garden
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Sunpetal Grove
3x Glacial Fortress
3x Hinterland Harbor
2x Forest
2x Plains
1x Island
3x Negate
3x Knight of Glory
3x Loxodon Smiter
2x Fog
2x Selesnya Charm
2x Rest in Peace
This deck takes off crazy fast as has been yielding t4-5 wins almost every game. In my trial testing with B/G zombies and 3 different variations of G/W aggro, this deck went 8-1, my only loss due to mana screw. Overall very happy with my playtest, I look forward to running this list at FNM this week.
In 3 of the games, once I dropped either Sigarda or Thrag, my opponent just scooped and we went to game 2. This says a lot for the deck.
One thing to add to what everyone else has been saying...I too am not convinced on Elvish Visionary. We need to be constantly dropping threats...not cantripping with our creatures. Constantly dropping threats late game just makes aggro decks lose...ours are a lot bigger
one of the people i play with is adamant about bant hexproof and when we playtest, i tend to use a variety of decks to try and beat it. i think people are really sleeping on this deck. once we find a way to even out the aggro matchup in game 1s, we are definitely going to be the deck to beat.
HOWEVER, the one color that really owns this deck is black. lilia, tribute to hunger (which is backbreaking very often), mutilate, curse of death's hold and barter in blood. these are all real threats that if bant hexproof becomes big, these decks will play.
One of the ways to really play around these answers post game 1 is to have a few loxodon smiters to come in for whatever AND to start main decking more sigardas. sigarda is generally better than black (sans vampire nightawk, which is moot once u have an ethereal armor on sigarda).
just some solutions that we've come up with lately. i think against decks that run sac outlets and lili, u can't play the matchup how u do with others. u can'tjust put enchantments on and swing anymore. u have to play smarter. Sure, turn 4 increasing savagery on a geist or stalker is usually good game. but tribute to hunger REALLY messes that plan up. then late game, once curse of death's hold hits the board, u need detention sphere or else the game is jsut out of reach.
I still think that the tempo style has more potential overall but my control build would shrug off stuff like that. I played 4 syncopate, 2 dissipate and a full complement of O-Ring and Detention Sphere. If I ever O-Ringed Liliana she'd STAY O-Ringed guldarnit!
debatable. duress pretty much makes sure balck players land lilis and keep them on the board.. at least till they make u discard a few or force u to sac a threat... tribute to hunger is crazy too.
I have been testing against Grites, Rakdos Wins, and Izzet Delver and so far have been taking games either 2-1 or 2-0. Hardest match up has been Izzet Delver due to the counters but most creature removal beyond a bonfire or overloaded mizzium motors have been dead cards. Every time my opponent was able to play bonfire or mizzium motors my hexproof guy was well out of range of dying.
Going to playtest against G/W Midrange decks soon as the meta here is filled with Thragtusk and friends.
Ya I will try the beast tracker. He's not card advantage by any means, but one of the major points of cantripping is to draw into hexproof threats and beast tracker almost gaurantees you'll get what you want the next turn. He would also let me run a singleton sigarda which I like the idea of, thanks for pointing that out.
I see centaur healer as more for decks that run dorks but again, worthy of consideration.
Something else that might be worthy of consideration is Wolfir Avenger. He's not hexproof but if you flash him in at the end of turn 3 he survives a lot of the most common removal spells.
I'd really like to get a group of us together to try out different versions of this deck for FNM and post results, matchups, meta assessments, etc...
My latest iterations have not been running Divine Reckoning in the mainboard, instead I have 2x Negate. The shop near my house is littered with control players.
For FNM I might switch back to divine reckoning because that shop is 90% agro.
I like safe passage more than fog. I know it costs more to cast, but it gives you a lot more options.
I've honestly found feeling of dread to be adequate most of the time, with divine reckoning in the sideboard.
I don't have many problems against lifegain to be honest. Our damage output grows almost exponentially the more cards we draw. Thragtusk lifegain is better against linear damage strategies with no evasion like zombies. We usually overwhelm any lifegain with this deck. I had a game teh other day against a dredge deck where he gained close to 50 life with 2x Gnaw to the bone but I still won. I had him down to 9 and was swinging for 6, then 9, then 12, etc... My final swing was with Ajani for over 30 damage.
I can see how your deck would do well in certain metas. In my area I can't imagine anyone scooping to a sigarda/thragtusk unless they're really bad players or are getting mana screwed. I switch between an agro-heavy meta to a control-heavy meta throughout the week so I have to make my deck somewhat balanced and the cantrips improve the consistency.
I'm going to try playtesting with a couple beast trackers tonight. We want to draw our hexproof bros and beast tracker almost gaurantees you'll get one that you want.
Jace seems ok too but I don't know if we have enough removal to keep him alive. If you're using him for card advantage he will often end up being a crappy Amass the Components for one turn.
Ya counter-heavy decks can be tough which is why its important to have access to 4 negates in your 75.
3x Forest
3x Glacial Fortress
4x Hallowed Fountain
1x Hinterland Harbor
3x Island
1x Moorland Haunt
3x Sunpetal Grove
4x Temple Garden
Instant (5)
3x Feeling of Dread
2x Negate
4x Abundant Growth
3x Detention Sphere
4x Ethereal Armor
1x Oblivion Ring
4x Rancor
Creature (15)
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Invisible Stalker
3x Restoration Angel
Planeswalker (2)
2x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
2x Negate
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Divine Reckoning
1x Nevermore
2x Witchbane Orb
3x Knight of Glory
2x Rest in Peace
2x Rootborn Defenses
Suggestions from community feedback:
Please let me know if I missed anything.
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Invisible Stalker
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
4 Abundant Growth
3 Detention Sphere
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Rancor
3 Selesnya Charm
4 Spectral Flight
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
2 Azorius Charm
2 Feeling of Dread
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Knight of Glory
3 Negate
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Rest in Peace
Seems pretty solid, although I'm surprised if this could consistently hold its own against Azorius Aggro with its speed and all of the first strikers.
Wow that's amazing, I wish we could get the pilot to contribute some of his thoughts here. Do you know how many people played in Hawaii States?
edit: Some googling shows that there were 56 attendees at HI states, not bad. The pilot's name was Ryan Harada, he won HI states last year too. Their top 8 list can be viewed on TCGPlayer to see what kind of competition he had. He finished with 14 points which means 4-0-2 record and there were 3 people with 14 points so I suspect there was some drawing/prize splitting going on but there's no way to be sure.
Glad to see someone did very well. shows promise!
Yeah, if we could get an enchantment that gives hexproof or haste, I could see Bruna making a bigger appearance.