I really like the idea of this deck and am now working on a list. So far I feel sigarda is the optimal pick over revenant as she already has evasion built in. I'm also tweaking some numbers and considering finding another creature to fill the slots for dryad as it does get big, but is still super open to all the removal the hexproof stompers dodge. I might just swap it for farseek for more mana fixing or mana bloom so I can drop sigarda faster more often. Bloom also has synergy with the deck. I'm also considering the ghostly prison like enchantment that was just printed.
This deck seems like it would be too slow without mana dorks, having a T2 Geist of Saint Traft seems like it would be more effective then the current state of things. Though, then again, running dorks opens you up to early removal as well... eh.
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I'd like to suggest Righteous Authority as another enchantment pump. It gives you card advantage every turn and pumps up your creature by quite a bit. Then again it costs five mana so perhaps not.
I haven't played the deck yet but I think it looks interesting and powerful until people sideboard enchantment hate, whatever distance down the road that is.
this deck is not similar to delver. This type of style is similar to the infect deck that poisoned standard recently (pun intended). It is hard for an opponent to react to making tragic slip and other one on one removals week. This is almost a combo deck as in that it either works or it doesn't. I would recommend keeping the curve low, Sigarda may even be too high. This deck wants to win by T5. Sphere of Safety is not where this deck wants to be. Perhaps Thragtusk as a 2 or 3 of to buy us one more turn and chump block.
this deck is not similar to delver. This type of style is similar to the infect deck that poisoned standard recently (pun intended). It is hard for an opponent to react to making tragic slip and other one on one removals week. This is almost a combo deck as in that it either works or it doesn't. I would recommend keeping the curve low, Sigarda may even be too high. This deck wants to win by T5. Sphere of Safety is not where this deck wants to be. Perhaps Thragtusk as a 2 or 3 of to buy us one more turn and chump block.
You're half-right. The way this deck does damage in bursts and kills the opponent is similar to infect, but unlike most infect decks this one does have ways to interact with the board and the creatures are not vulnerable to spot removal.
The reason I made the delver comparison is because in order to get your "combo pieces" (as you described them) out, you have to have ways to draw cards and keep your opponent's board at bay. The cards I use for that are mainly inaction injunction and feeling of dread, which serve the dual purpose of card advantage.
So I guess it takes elements of both decks in that way.
I am on the ropes about sigarda, in testing she has never been necessary or gone down in a way that impacts the board, but I have lost to liliana/tribute to hunger and sigarda seems like a nice way to coutneract those cards while not taking too much away from the base gameplan of the deck.
None of my lists include sphere of safety, and thragtusk doesn't really add to the gameplan of this deck.
Another card I just recently discovered is divine reckoning, I started playing with this yesterday and it's a house in this deck.
edit: To add to your comparison, it looks like infect at first glance but the turn 4 wins are few and far between. If I just stacked all my chips into that plan, it would be a bad version of infect. As it stands, its a much slower version of infect that uses card avantage and tempo plays to make up the difference in speed.
I'd like to suggest Righteous Authority as another enchantment pump. It gives you card advantage every turn and pumps up your creature by quite a bit. Then again it costs five mana so perhaps not.
I haven't played the deck yet but I think it looks interesting and powerful until people sideboard enchantment hate, whatever distance down the road that is.
Thanks the only reason I keep sigarda in despite being a 5-drop is because she fills in a critical weakness of this deck to edict effects (liliana / tribute to hunger).
My assessment of Righteous authority is that its too expensive for what it does, but I have a single foil that I might try running and see how it plays.
I really like the idea of this deck and am now working on a list. So far I feel sigarda is the optimal pick over revenant as she already has evasion built in. I'm also tweaking some numbers and considering finding another creature to fill the slots for dryad as it does get big, but is still super open to all the removal the hexproof stompers dodge. I might just swap it for farseek for more mana fixing or mana bloom so I can drop sigarda faster more often. Bloom also has synergy with the deck. I'm also considering the ghostly prison like enchantment that was just printed.
That's an interesting strat, let me know how it plays out for you. I'm going for cheap mana+card efficiency that gives my opponent few ways to interact with my board which is why I don't go your strat but I can see it working both ways.
I'm running a list similar to @Bonerfleximu's, it has some good openings and the game can be decided with a single stalker on board with the right hand to play with it. However, even with a good number of cantrips and staff sometimes the game just get stucked and if we don't have access to our combat tricks such as Feeling of Dread our hewproof guys can't do much alone - it's a bit weak against midrange that runs Thragtusk, Restoration Angel and Huntmaster.
However, I'm really liking this archetype, if you're nut it wins on 4th turn what is really good isn't ?
I'm running a list similar to @Bonerfleximu's, it has some good openings and the game can be decided with a single stalker on board with the right hand to play with it. However, even with a good number of cantrips and staff sometimes the game just get stucked and if we don't have access to our combat tricks such as Feeling of Dread our hewproof guys can't do much alone - it's a bit weak against midrange that runs Thragtusk, Restoration Angel and Huntmaster.
However, I'm really liking this archetype, if you're nut it wins on 4th turn what is really good isn't ?
Thanks, post your list!
Also the reason I use visionary is because of the card advantage - they can use a removal spell on him and you lose zero cards. At most I might put a single ethereal armor on him and the best they can do is 1-for-1 me.
I hear what you're saying, I really feel like the most recent list I posted has hit a sweet spot though in terms of being able to get out your threats. This could also be because i've been playing it a lot and have come to understand the deck well enough to know when to mulligan and which plays to make.
Ajani, Caller of the Pride just does nothing for me and is pure win more. If I have a hex proof fatty I am winning anyways, if I don't then I do not want Ajani. This deck needs 4 Detention spheres and maybe even 3 oblivion rings as well. I think 14 is to low on the enchantment count 17 seems like a much better number.
The M13 pro black night is practically another hexproof card in the BG zombie match up as they just can not deal with it.
If they are tapped out Rancor on a visionary is awesome. They can trade with a 3/3 and I get the rancor back.
Ajani, Caller of the Pride just does nothing for me and is pure win more. If I have a hex proof fatty I am winning anyways, if I don't then I do not want Ajani. This deck needs 4 Detention spheres and maybe even 3 oblivion rings as well. I think 14 is to low on the enchantment count 17 seems like a much better number.
The M13 pro black night is practically another hexproof card in the BG zombie match up as they just can not deal with it.
If they are tapped out Rancor on a visionary is awesome. They can trade with a 3/3 and I get the rancor back.
Great points when you put it that way. How much testing have you done? Ajani is a definite liability if you don't have a creature to pump yet, and the Elvish Visionaries are not very good candidates. So that leaves us essentially 8 cards in the deck that he can interact with. Granted he's only a 2 of. It comes down to the surprise burst damage being worth it versus more enchantments for consistency.
That being said on more enchantments, at first glance anyway/just my opinion, this strategy doesn't mind a longer midrange game compared to traditional aggro decks, there's plenty of interaction and setup tricks. The flip side of that coin is you do need to seal the deal eventually, T8-10 ideally I'd imagine. With O-rings and Spheres you're not afraid of their big trump threats, and between injunctions and feelings of dread and the occasional well placed divine reckoning, this could last and eventually just finish them with 1 threat as envisioned. My only suggestions would be on what to replace if going more enchantment heavy; drop Az Charm in favor of more O-rings/Spheres. Instant trick or not, it's nice, but dealing with something permanently is worth it. I'd be wary about losing 2 sources of card draw though, but using Azcharm for draw is arguably the worst of the 3 options in my experience, and only picked if you're already winning and/or need to filter that badly. If packing this much hard removal you may not need Azcharm's lifelink to help stabilize to boot. Deflection sounds great in here, but it seems like it has to go in favor of rings/spheres, along with Ajani.
This would make for a very defensive longer game, but barring sorcery speed board wipes they will not stop whatever your clock is, this is already a given.
@OP: All in all keep up the great work, a friend and I are very interested and going to start our own testing on it, thanks for the initial idea.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I tested about 20 games last night and Ajani was my first cut. I will post my list later. I guess it comes down to deciding what we are afraid of. other agro decks do not worry me at all honestly so the sorcery spos dedicated to controlling them do not make sense to me. What scares me is Terminus, supreme verdict, and mutilate. I guess we need to play differently against those decks.
I tested about 20 games last night and Ajani was my first cut. I will post my list later. I guess it comes down to deciding what we are afraid of. other agro decks do not worry me at all honestly so the sorcery spos dedicated to controlling them do not make sense to me. What scares me is Terminus, supreme verdict, and mutilate. I guess we need to play differently against those decks.
Sounds good on your testing, I haven't tested at all so I'll take your word for it, if I find the OP's list doesn't get the job done. It's very probable the UW/Bant control lists are going to have 5-7 Terminus/Verdicts in their decks to throw at us. Mutilate, not so worrisome as it's only a 3-4 of in it's respective (mostly) MBC/Jund type deck. I'd be concerned if true MBC using 4x Mutilate and say 2-3x Tribute to Hunger actually becomes a thing, but that's still 1 for 1 card trades. Who knows.
What's the most effective way to come back from a board wipe is probably the question we should be looking at. I mean, you lose one creature and possibly an Ethereal Armor, that's not the end of the world if we can quickly get another. I'm thinking Faith's Reward may deserve to be a 3-of in sideboard? Unlike Negate, it will reliably save you from Verdict, and unlike Rootborn Defenses it will save you vs Mutilate. The catch being it's slightly more expensive, but it is a failproof insurance policy, I don't think the 4 CMC is a problem in the lategame when you actually have a creature + an enchantment on it and are striking the opponent down, and it's by this time you are actually worried about sweepers. Terminus miracles scare me I'll admit, no real foolproof way around it sans Negate.
I could see this becoming a very real deck if we can find an effective answer to both Terminus and Verdict in the same deck, sideboarded at least.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Great points when you put it that way. How much testing have you done? Ajani is a definite liability if you don't have a creature to pump yet, and the Elvish Visionaries are not very good candidates. So that leaves us essentially 8 cards in the deck that he can interact with. Granted he's only a 2 of. It comes down to the surprise burst damage being worth it versus more enchantments for consistency.
That being said on more enchantments, at first glance anyway/just my opinion, this strategy doesn't mind a longer midrange game compared to traditional aggro decks, there's plenty of interaction and setup tricks. The flip side of that coin is you do need to seal the deal eventually, T8-10 ideally I'd imagine. With O-rings and Spheres you're not afraid of their big trump threats, and between injunctions and feelings of dread and the occasional well placed divine reckoning, this could last and eventually just finish them with 1 threat as envisioned. My only suggestions would be on what to replace if going more enchantment heavy; drop Az Charm in favor of more O-rings/Spheres. Instant trick or not, it's nice, but dealing with something permanently is worth it. I'd be wary about losing 2 sources of card draw though, but using Azcharm for draw is arguably the worst of the 3 options in my experience, and only picked if you're already winning and/or need to filter that badly. If packing this much hard removal you may not need Azcharm's lifelink to help stabilize to boot. Deflection sounds great in here, but it seems like it has to go in favor of rings/spheres, along with Ajani.
This would make for a very defensive longer game, but barring sorcery speed board wipes they will not stop whatever your clock is, this is already a given.
@OP: All in all keep up the great work, a friend and I are very interested and going to start our own testing on it, thanks for the initial idea.
Great points and and you're almost spot on in your description of the deck's core functionality. I look forward to more input from you after you start playtesting.
A major dimension of this deck that you missed in your description is that it has the unpredictable explosiveness common to infect decks.
Along those lines, this is why I include Ajani. The primary play with Ajani is as an evasive finisher, I almost never drop Ajani for his +1. If you can get an opponent down to 12-14 life, they think they have at least 2 more turns to live. I've won more games on his back than any other card in the deck.
There's an intangible and almost psychological benefit to having the ability to double your damage output for 3 mana that can't be measured in typical deckbuilding terms. The first time you do it the opponent is almost always caught offguard, and any subsequent games are played much differently. The fact that you're stacking all your damage on one creature makes his -3 extremely good.
Divine Deflection and Azorius Charm both provide a similar benefit as feeling of dread/inaction injunction. You want to be able to swing your creatures and not worry about crackback. The Charm can be used to gain life, effectively "blocking" as much damage as you swing for and providing a huge swing against zombie decks' reach. It can also be used to put a creature on top of the opponents library, keeping your geist safe or letting you trample through for full damage. Divine Deflection is just a one-of that has similar benefits but is never seen coming. It also has the same benefit of ajani in that your opponent will play around it in subsequent games after losing to it.
O-ring / D-Sphere only provide you a sorcery-speed solution to one or maybe two cards on the board at the cost of three mana and leaves you open to a lot of surprises via instant speed enchantment removal (G-Charm / Abrupt Decay). I dont want my opponents to be able to do anything to my removal effects which is why I prefer instants/sorceries over enchantments. I'll consider trying more though.
Edit: Just realized you mentioned that Ajani provides explosiveness in your first paragraph. So I guess you are spot-on but I added a bit more detail to why I use Ajani =P
Sounds good on your testing, I haven't tested at all so I'll take your word for it, if I find the OP's list doesn't get the job done. It's very probable the UW/Bant control lists are going to have 5-7 Terminus/Verdicts in their decks to throw at us. Mutilate, not so worrisome as it's only a 3-4 of in it's respective (mostly) MBC/Jund type deck. I'd be concerned if true MBC using 4x Mutilate and say 2-3x Tribute to Hunger actually becomes a thing, but that's still 1 for 1 card trades. Who knows.
What's the most effective way to come back from a board wipe is probably the question we should be looking at. I mean, you lose one creature and possibly an Ethereal Armor, that's not the end of the world if we can quickly get another. I'm thinking Faith's Reward may deserve to be a 3-of in sideboard? Unlike Negate, it will reliably save you from Verdict, and unlike Rootborn Defenses it will save you vs Mutilate. The catch being it's slightly more expensive, but it is a failproof insurance policy, I don't think the 4 CMC is a problem in the lategame when you actually have a creature + an enchantment on it and are striking the opponent down, and it's by this time you are actually worried about sweepers. Terminus miracles scare me I'll admit, no real foolproof way around it sans Negate.
I could see this becoming a very real deck if we can find an effective answer to both Terminus and Verdict in the same deck, sideboarded at least.
I think Negate and rootborn defense in the sideboard are still the best options against control. You can easily side out inaction injunction, feeling of dread and divine verdict for the following:
3x Negate
1x Nevermore
2x Rootborn Defense
Rootborn is great with geist as a combat trick to gain a permanent token or against sweepers.
Nevermore can handle terminus, mutilate, or supreme verdict.
Negate is good against all but verdict.
I'd be willing to test Faith's reward for sure, I've always wanted that card to work ever since I played naya pod (pod away my creature, faith's reward at EoT to get it back...lulz). It doesn't let you re-attach your ethereal armor but it does help with everything else.
I tested about 20 games last night and Ajani was my first cut. I will post my list later. I guess it comes down to deciding what we are afraid of. other agro decks do not worry me at all honestly so the sorcery spos dedicated to controlling them do not make sense to me. What scares me is Terminus, supreme verdict, and mutilate. I guess we need to play differently against those decks.
Nice, I'd be interested to hear how you fared in your matchups. So far I've been going against different variations of zombies, White Weenie, American Control, 5cc, and EpEx Storm.
I feel like my matchup is favorable in all of these except for the American Control list which had 8 sweepers post-side and plenty of counterspells. Against this deck I was losing at first but eventually figured that he had a hard time if I could do a lot of damage in a single turn. I would drop one threat, poke, poke, poke, then drop a slew of enchantments and ajani in one turn and finish him. If he dropped a sweeper early it usually meant he had more in his hand. It was a very intense matchup
I'd never cut Ajani from the list man. Sure he can't does much alone (like almost all our enchantments for example) and it's troublesome have more than 1 in initial hand with no guys, however since we play most of times with a single beater on board for the win the fact tha it gives double strike and evasion means that Ajani basically finnish the game with half the time.
The hypotetic 4thl turn kill can just be done thanks to him, 2 of - neither more or less.
And Elvish Visionary helps a lot really. Its basically a cantrip but help us against sac effects to protect our early Stalker/Geist that is common against some matches like a Lliliana of the Veil or Tribute to Hunger, etc.
In fact, my list nowadays is just the same as your's @Bonerfleximus. Except by the Divine Deflection and Divine Reckoning, however I'm really attempted to test Deflection in my list, this arcehtype seems to be less mana intensive, however in stucked situations when we just can't swing normally with our hexproof guys it can be of some help - swinging without the need for block on opponent's combat step. However I thin that for our list some fog effect is enough, such Fog itself.
I'd never cut Ajani from the list man. Sure he can't does much alone (like almost all our enchantments for example) and it's troublesome have more than 1 in initial hand with no guys, however since we play most of times with a single beater on board for the win the fact tha it gives double strike and evasion means that Ajani basically finnish the game with half the time.
The hypotetic 4thl turn kill can just be done thanks to him, 2 of - neither more or less.
And Elvish Visionary helps a lot really. Its basically a cantrip but help us against sac effects to protect our early Stalker/Geist that is common against some matches like a Lliliana of the Veil or Tribute to Hunger, etc.
In fact, my list nowadays is just the same as your's @Bonerfleximus. Except by the Divine Deflection and Divine Reckoning, however I'm really attempted to test Deflection in my list, this arcehtype seems to be less mana intensive, however in stucked situations when we just can't swing normally with our hexproof guys it can be of some help - swinging without the need for block on opponent's combat step. However I thin that for our list some fog effect is enough, such Fog itself.
Thanks man, any input you can provide on your tough matchups and potential sideboard cards from your experiences would be appreciated.
I've taken into consideration some of the points other people have provided and am looking forward to testing the following changes:
-1 Divine Deflection, -2 Azorius Charm
+2 Detention Sphere, +1 Oblivion Ring
I'm kind of biased when it comes to Divine Deflection because it's always performed so amazingly for me as a 1-of in my midrange white decks to the point where I may try to force it into decks it doesn't belong. To counteract my bias, I'm going to try and drop it for a bit. Chances are I'll miss it terribly, but if this makes the deck more consistent it's worth it.
I cut 1 Sigarda for the 4th Elvish Visionary. Since she's a late-game play and I was missing some good cantrip to keep the list going, I add the last copy of Visionary.
And some guy on the side of our Hexproof dudes makes the only way to stop us become sweepers and nothing else. It helps to dig to Sigarda anyways so I'm quite sure about this little change.
I cut 1 Sigarda for the 4th Elvish Visionary. Since she's a late-game play and I was missing some good cantrip to keep the list going, I add the last copy of Visionary.
And some guy on the side of our Hexproof dudes makes the only way to stop us become sweepers and nothing else. It helps to dig to Sigarda anyways so I'm quite sure about this little change.
Ya that's not a bad idea. I did some more playtesting last night against American Delver which also ran geist and had some trouble against that list. I'm finding a way to include 2 negates mainboard for more controlling matchups since they seem to be our achilles heel.
I fear losing the draw power post sb maybe a 2 and 2 split. I played around with amass the components and fell in love! I think it is a viable replacement for the explosivenes of ajani and I almost always get 2 armors on a stalker now. turn 5 it is almost like armors # 5 - 8. I currently have it as a 2 of but may want more.
I know Huntbeast is going to be called out but a 3/3 Hexproof at 4CMC isn't bad and it ups the total hexproof creature count to 12. I completely forgot about Ethereal Armor. I was planning on running at the least 4 Rancor and 4 Spectral Flight and Armor just makes them even more lethal. Armor also opens up cards like Abundant Growth which was boarder line playable as mana fixing and cantrip for 1CMC and Pacifism/Bonds of Faith as good early control along with Feeling of Dread.
Very quick draft to get the idea out there. I think Inaction Injunction and Spectral Flight need a place in the 75 but not sure where. This deck could also run a very nice transformational sideboard that moves it to a Bant Control style deck.
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Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
I haven't played the deck yet but I think it looks interesting and powerful until people sideboard enchantment hate, whatever distance down the road that is.
You're half-right. The way this deck does damage in bursts and kills the opponent is similar to infect, but unlike most infect decks this one does have ways to interact with the board and the creatures are not vulnerable to spot removal.
The reason I made the delver comparison is because in order to get your "combo pieces" (as you described them) out, you have to have ways to draw cards and keep your opponent's board at bay. The cards I use for that are mainly inaction injunction and feeling of dread, which serve the dual purpose of card advantage.
So I guess it takes elements of both decks in that way.
I am on the ropes about sigarda, in testing she has never been necessary or gone down in a way that impacts the board, but I have lost to liliana/tribute to hunger and sigarda seems like a nice way to coutneract those cards while not taking too much away from the base gameplan of the deck.
None of my lists include sphere of safety, and thragtusk doesn't really add to the gameplan of this deck.
Another card I just recently discovered is divine reckoning, I started playing with this yesterday and it's a house in this deck.
edit: To add to your comparison, it looks like infect at first glance but the turn 4 wins are few and far between. If I just stacked all my chips into that plan, it would be a bad version of infect. As it stands, its a much slower version of infect that uses card avantage and tempo plays to make up the difference in speed.
Thanks the only reason I keep sigarda in despite being a 5-drop is because she fills in a critical weakness of this deck to edict effects (liliana / tribute to hunger).
My assessment of Righteous authority is that its too expensive for what it does, but I have a single foil that I might try running and see how it plays.
That's an interesting strat, let me know how it plays out for you. I'm going for cheap mana+card efficiency that gives my opponent few ways to interact with my board which is why I don't go your strat but I can see it working both ways.
However, I'm really liking this archetype, if you're nut it wins on 4th turn what is really good isn't ?
Thanks, post your list!
Also the reason I use visionary is because of the card advantage - they can use a removal spell on him and you lose zero cards. At most I might put a single ethereal armor on him and the best they can do is 1-for-1 me.
I hear what you're saying, I really feel like the most recent list I posted has hit a sweet spot though in terms of being able to get out your threats. This could also be because i've been playing it a lot and have come to understand the deck well enough to know when to mulligan and which plays to make.
The M13 pro black night is practically another hexproof card in the BG zombie match up as they just can not deal with it.
If they are tapped out Rancor on a visionary is awesome. They can trade with a 3/3 and I get the rancor back.
Great points when you put it that way. How much testing have you done? Ajani is a definite liability if you don't have a creature to pump yet, and the Elvish Visionaries are not very good candidates. So that leaves us essentially 8 cards in the deck that he can interact with. Granted he's only a 2 of. It comes down to the surprise burst damage being worth it versus more enchantments for consistency.
That being said on more enchantments, at first glance anyway/just my opinion, this strategy doesn't mind a longer midrange game compared to traditional aggro decks, there's plenty of interaction and setup tricks. The flip side of that coin is you do need to seal the deal eventually, T8-10 ideally I'd imagine. With O-rings and Spheres you're not afraid of their big trump threats, and between injunctions and feelings of dread and the occasional well placed divine reckoning, this could last and eventually just finish them with 1 threat as envisioned. My only suggestions would be on what to replace if going more enchantment heavy; drop Az Charm in favor of more O-rings/Spheres. Instant trick or not, it's nice, but dealing with something permanently is worth it. I'd be wary about losing 2 sources of card draw though, but using Azcharm for draw is arguably the worst of the 3 options in my experience, and only picked if you're already winning and/or need to filter that badly. If packing this much hard removal you may not need Azcharm's lifelink to help stabilize to boot. Deflection sounds great in here, but it seems like it has to go in favor of rings/spheres, along with Ajani.
This would make for a very defensive longer game, but barring sorcery speed board wipes they will not stop whatever your clock is, this is already a given.
@OP: All in all keep up the great work, a friend and I are very interested and going to start our own testing on it, thanks for the initial idea.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Sounds good on your testing, I haven't tested at all so I'll take your word for it, if I find the OP's list doesn't get the job done. It's very probable the UW/Bant control lists are going to have 5-7 Terminus/Verdicts in their decks to throw at us. Mutilate, not so worrisome as it's only a 3-4 of in it's respective (mostly) MBC/Jund type deck. I'd be concerned if true MBC using 4x Mutilate and say 2-3x Tribute to Hunger actually becomes a thing, but that's still 1 for 1 card trades. Who knows.
What's the most effective way to come back from a board wipe is probably the question we should be looking at. I mean, you lose one creature and possibly an Ethereal Armor, that's not the end of the world if we can quickly get another. I'm thinking Faith's Reward may deserve to be a 3-of in sideboard? Unlike Negate, it will reliably save you from Verdict, and unlike Rootborn Defenses it will save you vs Mutilate. The catch being it's slightly more expensive, but it is a failproof insurance policy, I don't think the 4 CMC is a problem in the lategame when you actually have a creature + an enchantment on it and are striking the opponent down, and it's by this time you are actually worried about sweepers. Terminus miracles scare me I'll admit, no real foolproof way around it sans Negate.
I could see this becoming a very real deck if we can find an effective answer to both Terminus and Verdict in the same deck, sideboarded at least.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Great points and and you're almost spot on in your description of the deck's core functionality. I look forward to more input from you after you start playtesting.
A major dimension of this deck that you missed in your description is that it has the unpredictable explosiveness common to infect decks.
Along those lines, this is why I include Ajani. The primary play with Ajani is as an evasive finisher, I almost never drop Ajani for his +1. If you can get an opponent down to 12-14 life, they think they have at least 2 more turns to live. I've won more games on his back than any other card in the deck.
There's an intangible and almost psychological benefit to having the ability to double your damage output for 3 mana that can't be measured in typical deckbuilding terms. The first time you do it the opponent is almost always caught offguard, and any subsequent games are played much differently. The fact that you're stacking all your damage on one creature makes his -3 extremely good.
Divine Deflection and Azorius Charm both provide a similar benefit as feeling of dread/inaction injunction. You want to be able to swing your creatures and not worry about crackback. The Charm can be used to gain life, effectively "blocking" as much damage as you swing for and providing a huge swing against zombie decks' reach. It can also be used to put a creature on top of the opponents library, keeping your geist safe or letting you trample through for full damage. Divine Deflection is just a one-of that has similar benefits but is never seen coming. It also has the same benefit of ajani in that your opponent will play around it in subsequent games after losing to it.
O-ring / D-Sphere only provide you a sorcery-speed solution to one or maybe two cards on the board at the cost of three mana and leaves you open to a lot of surprises via instant speed enchantment removal (G-Charm / Abrupt Decay). I dont want my opponents to be able to do anything to my removal effects which is why I prefer instants/sorceries over enchantments. I'll consider trying more though.
Edit: Just realized you mentioned that Ajani provides explosiveness in your first paragraph. So I guess you are spot-on but I added a bit more detail to why I use Ajani =P
I think Negate and rootborn defense in the sideboard are still the best options against control. You can easily side out inaction injunction, feeling of dread and divine verdict for the following:
3x Negate
1x Nevermore
2x Rootborn Defense
Rootborn is great with geist as a combat trick to gain a permanent token or against sweepers.
Nevermore can handle terminus, mutilate, or supreme verdict.
Negate is good against all but verdict.
I'd be willing to test Faith's reward for sure, I've always wanted that card to work ever since I played naya pod (pod away my creature, faith's reward at EoT to get it back...lulz). It doesn't let you re-attach your ethereal armor but it does help with everything else.
Nice, I'd be interested to hear how you fared in your matchups. So far I've been going against different variations of zombies, White Weenie, American Control, 5cc, and EpEx Storm.
I feel like my matchup is favorable in all of these except for the American Control list which had 8 sweepers post-side and plenty of counterspells. Against this deck I was losing at first but eventually figured that he had a hard time if I could do a lot of damage in a single turn. I would drop one threat, poke, poke, poke, then drop a slew of enchantments and ajani in one turn and finish him. If he dropped a sweeper early it usually meant he had more in his hand. It was a very intense matchup
The hypotetic 4thl turn kill can just be done thanks to him, 2 of - neither more or less.
And Elvish Visionary helps a lot really. Its basically a cantrip but help us against sac effects to protect our early Stalker/Geist that is common against some matches like a Lliliana of the Veil or Tribute to Hunger, etc.
In fact, my list nowadays is just the same as your's @Bonerfleximus. Except by the Divine Deflection and Divine Reckoning, however I'm really attempted to test Deflection in my list, this arcehtype seems to be less mana intensive, however in stucked situations when we just can't swing normally with our hexproof guys it can be of some help - swinging without the need for block on opponent's combat step. However I thin that for our list some fog effect is enough, such Fog itself.
Thanks man, any input you can provide on your tough matchups and potential sideboard cards from your experiences would be appreciated.
I've taken into consideration some of the points other people have provided and am looking forward to testing the following changes:
-1 Divine Deflection, -2 Azorius Charm
+2 Detention Sphere, +1 Oblivion Ring
I'm kind of biased when it comes to Divine Deflection because it's always performed so amazingly for me as a 1-of in my midrange white decks to the point where I may try to force it into decks it doesn't belong. To counteract my bias, I'm going to try and drop it for a bit. Chances are I'll miss it terribly, but if this makes the deck more consistent it's worth it.
And some guy on the side of our Hexproof dudes makes the only way to stop us become sweepers and nothing else. It helps to dig to Sigarda anyways so I'm quite sure about this little change.
Ya that's not a bad idea. I did some more playtesting last night against American Delver which also ran geist and had some trouble against that list. I'm finding a way to include 2 negates mainboard for more controlling matchups since they seem to be our achilles heel.
I opted for Rest in peace instead - reason being that against dredge decks, zombies or runechanters ground seal doesn't do anything.
I know Huntbeast is going to be called out but a 3/3 Hexproof at 4CMC isn't bad and it ups the total hexproof creature count to 12. I completely forgot about Ethereal Armor. I was planning on running at the least 4 Rancor and 4 Spectral Flight and Armor just makes them even more lethal. Armor also opens up cards like Abundant Growth which was boarder line playable as mana fixing and cantrip for 1CMC and Pacifism/Bonds of Faith as good early control along with Feeling of Dread.
Very rough sketch but something like:
BANT-PROOF
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Temple Garden
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Gavony Township
6 Plains
4 Invisible Stalker
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Primal Huntbeast
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Enchantment
4 Rancor
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Abundant Growth
2 Detention Sphere
2 Bonds of Faith
2 Azorius Charm
1 Selesnya Charm
3 Feeling of Dread
Very quick draft to get the idea out there. I think Inaction Injunction and Spectral Flight need a place in the 75 but not sure where. This deck could also run a very nice transformational sideboard that moves it to a Bant Control style deck.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens