This is a Primer for a competitive Grixis Control deck that is still being developed. It is the official thread to discuss Grixis in the Competitive Standard subforum.
Grixis Control is an archetype that can be built to battle any metagame as it is very easy to customize.
Here is a list of card options avaiable to us followed by sample decklists:
Card Options:
Planeswalkers:
Liliana of the Veil
+1 Empties our opponent's hands as we dump our flashback cards and Snapcaster Mage targets into our graveyard.
-2 Removal, gets rid of hexproof creatures such as Geist of Saint Traft
-6 Often devastating for your opponent.
-> Good in metas full of Bant Hexproof, currently best in the sideboard.
Jace, Architect of Thought
+1 Softens the blow from aggro decks
-2 Mini-Fact or Fiction. Helps us dig for answers early game and finishers late game.
-8 Search both your own and your opponent's library and grab what you need. Can use their own removal to kill their own creatures, or grab their finisher. Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is obviously a great card to cast for free from your library!
Jace, Memory Adept
+1 Draw
0 Great win condition especially against the control match up.
-7 Can be a finishing blow to an opponent, or finds pretty much anything you need from your deck.
-> Staple in the sideboard (1-2).
Chandra, the Firebrand
+1 Pings small creatures.
-2 Great with many cards. Use a removal spell to kill 2 cards. 1 Forbidden Alchemy to look for 2 out of 8 cards is great to look for answers. Hardcasting Bonfire of the Damned is suddenly much better.
-6 A Bonfire for 6.
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
+1 Best after a boardwipe. Tap down their only creature, or biggest creature, or even a land if they are mana screwed.
-2 Card advantage.
-8 Most often this will be game ending. You have access to unlimited removal if you have a single kill spell in your hand. Can kill an opponent with Bonfire of the Damned and even Pillar of Flame. Your Forbidden Alchemy's turn into "Draw 4" for 3 mana.
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
+3 Destroy an enchantment, artifact, planeswalker or land.
-2 Take your opponents finisher or gain a blocker if desperate.
-9 It is very hard to lose once you -9 on Nicol Bolas. Your opponent is often left with no cards in hand, and almost nothing on the battlefield.
-> Downside is that it is terrible against aggro, great against midrange and control.
Creatures:
Olivia Voldaren
- Pings small creatures to death and steals bigger ones. All while getting bigger herself.
- Not easily answered
- A staple for Grixis Control. Play as a minimum 2 of in the 75.
Aetherling
- It is by far the best finisher available in the current standard.
- Almost impossible to kill.
- Can be both offensive and defensive.
- Another staple, often a 1-of, sometimes a 2-of.
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
- Another Flying beater.
- Draws you cards while pinging your opponent.
- Pings creatures too.
- Both this and Olivia Voldaren are great cards to sink mana into late game.
Snapcaster Mage
- Reuse any spell you need from your graveyard.
- Blocks and trades with many things.
- Another staple, run 2-4.
Lone Revenant
- Hexproof. 4/4. Helps you dig. Good in a control shell if running few creatures.
Augur of Bolas
- Helps you look for answers.
- Is a blocker.
Thundermaw Hellkite
- Best in a meta filled with tokens or in a more mid-range build.
Desecration Demon
- It is a 6/6 flying trample for 4 mana that forces your opponents to sacrifice creatures.
- It's not very reliable as a finisher or a blocker.
Instants and Sorceries:
Forbidden Alchemy
- Helps you search for what you need. Dumps SCM targets or cards with flashback into the grave.
- A staple, play 1-4.
Desperate Ravings
- Often better than Think Twice as it helps you dig deeper. Obvious downside is that you can end up discarding the card you need the most.
- Think Twice is better if your deck doesn't have many cards with flashback.
- Desperate Ravings vs Think Twice can often be a personal decision depending on one's playstyle.
Far // Away
- Great multi purpose card.
- Answers Thragtusk
- Answers multiple creatures
- Bounce Snapcaster back to your hand
- Deals with hexproof
- Run 2-4.
Mizzium Mortars
- Early game removal and late game sweeper.
- Often played as a 1-3 of.
Magmaquake
- Probably the best boardwipe we have access to
- Is an instant
- However, cannot kill fliers
- Does not interact with planeswalkers well, best suited for a draw-go version of the deck.
Rolling Temblor
- A significantly worse Whipflare, but it's all we have right now. Great against aggro decks.
- Can be flashbacked.
Dispel
- Side it in against control for Revelation.
Crypt Incursion
- Can be used to stablize against aggro, good against reanimator too, sideboard card
Izzet Staticaster
- Run 2-4 in side.
- Good against Aristocrat type decks, tokens, sometimes aggro
Slaughter Games0
- Excellent sideboard card. A Surgical Extraction that can't be countered and doesn't have to target a card in the graveyard. Great against control where you can exile their very few win conditions, also helps us get rid of troublesome cards such as Detention Sphere and Sigarda, Host of Heroins.
- Play 2 in the side.
Rakdos Charm
- Sideboard card thats artifact removal, graveyard hate and great against token swarms.
Ratchet Bomb
- Grixis is not known for being able to deal with permanents such as Enchantments very well and Ratchet Bomb helps.
- Great against tokens
- Run up to 2 somewhere in the sideboard.
Rakdos Keyrune
- Provides Ramp that allows for a turn 4 Tamiyo.
- First strikes many relevant threats
Not playing Vampire Nighthawk is a mistake I think. His flying, lifelink, deathtouch presence is pseudo removal and a deterrent for opposing Smiters/Geists (important me thinks). He is quite good.
I really think Jace should be maindeck material. He is a permanent that draws cards, weakens attackers, and can get a Nicol Bolas out potentially for free.
I really like Liliana of the Veil, but even with support I dnt know if she will be good enough.
Jace/VNighthawk should be in here though, and probably 2-3 copies of Cyclonic Rift as a mid game insurance.
Not playing Vampire Nighthawk is a mistake I think. His flying, lifelink, deathtouch presence is pseudo removal and a deterrent for opposing Smiters/Geists (important me thinks). He is quite good.
I really think Jace should be maindeck material. He is a permanent that draws cards, weakens attackers, and can get a Nicol Bolas out potentially for free.
I really like Liliana of the Veil, but even with support I dnt know if she will be good enough.
Jace/VNighthawk should be in here though, and probably 2-3 copies of Cyclonic Rift as a mid game insurance.
I completely agree with this.
Liliana is great too - she kills off something, sometimes a hexproof creature like Geist of Saint Traft
I still haven't tested Cyclonic Rift - wouldn't it be better running a sweeper instead?
P.S. I have updated the original post's card choices from all of your posts!
I just want to add how much of a beast Vampire Nighthawk is. I've been playing on MTGO and added her in place of my pristine talismans and couldn't be happier. Its such an efficient deterrent to early game attacks and your opponent uses removal on it instead of your late game finishers. Must be a card played 3x at the least.
I'm also of the opinion that Mizzium Mortars is better in this build than Bonfire of the Damned. Bonfire is much better for a tempo play hardcasting it for one or two in the early game to clear the way for small beaters. Mizzium Mortars is better as a control option later in the game.
Hey guys just a quick thought, I'm thinking about building a grixis list similar to the ones presented here but I think theres one key card alot of these lists are missing out on, the one and only curse of death's hold. With the super aggro environment everyone keeps thinking we're gonna be stuck in this card seems like an absolute boss to me.
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I just want to add how much of a beast Vampire Nighthawk is. I've been playing on MTGO and added her in place of my pristine talismans and couldn't be happier. Its such an efficient deterrent to early game attacks and your opponent uses removal on it instead of your late game finishers. Must be a card played 3x at the least.
I'm also of the opinion that Mizzium Mortars is better in this build than Bonfire of the Damned. Bonfire is much better for a tempo play hardcasting it for one or two in the early game to clear the way for small beaters. Mizzium Mortars is better as a control option later in the game.
We might need to end up running a mix of Mizzium Mortars and Bonfire of the Damned, just because Mizzium Mortars can never be able to kill a 5+ toughness creature, unlike Bonfire.
Rakdos's return is amazing. forcing your opponent into top-deck mode is insane. Except when they have loxodon smiters in hand.
Rakdos keyrune is great. Mana ramp in control is good. Mana ramp that can also be a 3/1 first strike? Insane.
I prefer bonfire for the versatility, but Mizzium mortars is more reliable.
Hey guys just a quick thought, I'm thinking about building a grixis list similar to the ones presented here but I think theres one key card alot of these lists are missing out on, the one and only curse of death's hold. With the super aggro environment everyone keeps thinking we're gonna be stuck in this card seems like an absolute boss to me.
I do run 2x Curse of Death's Hold in my Sideboard, but depending on the meta, it could be moved onto the mainboard.
Mizzium Mortars is such a weird card to me. The fact it kills stuff and leaves your board undamaged is good, but its so narrow and may be totally dead in some matches. I guess because the new infant meta game will be mostly aggro/midrange it will suffice as mainboard material. But, I really don't care for it, however, it may be a necessity, so oh well lol.
VNighthawk is very good, I will stand by that. His ability to act as a deterrent against attackers is relevant, as is his flying and lifelink when racing (if you so choose).
I know it sounds janky, but I was considering bloodgift demon (the phyrexian arena on legs dude) as a singleton. Just because he flies, beats decently and helps draw cards of course.
Even after a little testing with Jace, I really like him. He really helps by weakening attackers (great for my VNighthawks) and drawing more cards is always welcomed.
Nicol Bolas costs ALOT but man, when he hits it is game over for them in the worst way. I play one but may go up to two copies.
I keep trying to make Liliana work more. She is awesome but isnt working so well. Typically I want her against decks like Bant, where they pump smiters/geists on turn two off mana dork acceleration. Shes terrible here as they can sacrifice the mana dork and still beat. Never use her discard against Bant, because if they have Smiter in hand your boned. I tried different setups like Pillar of Flame mana dork, then Liliana, but this isnt Magical Christmas Perfect Magic land sooooo if that doesnt happen and you get her too late, blah. Too bad because I really like Liliana too.
If anything its the removal thats killing me because you need so many different types for different stuff. So, I am keeping it simple for now. Pillar of Flame for mana dorks, ant-undying, and VNighthawk as pseudo removal. I even considered some janky two drop skeleton that has regen and death touch, and I even still might use it as another "wall" deathtouch removal dude. Seems that using the deathtouch guys is sort of like removal and buys time, which is critical.
Olivia Voldaren. I am continually impressed with her. She really can turn the tide of battle so quickly is silly. Plus, the fact that she flies, pumps and the biggest win is the posession ability (again acting as a better removal) is just ridiculously powerful. I just am training myself to be aware of Selesnya Charm more oten as if she is too big she gets exiled bu it. But posessing Smiters or an other midrange fatty is just dumb powerful.
Cyclonic Rift. This card is very good. Once you cast it as overload your adversary is always afraid of it and tried and play around it. Doesn't matter as they're are som many ways to break the symmetry by having just a little board presence.
Draco Genius. I think everyone should be playng this card if you are in the colors. I want to play two copies. If you untap with him, its just a win. If you play him later with open mana, he's win.
Mizzium Mortars is such a weird card to me. The fact it kills stuff and leaves your board undamaged is good, but its so narrow and may be totally dead in some matches. I guess because the new infant meta game will be mostly aggro/midrange it will suffice as mainboard material. But, I really don't care for it, however, it may be a necessity, so oh well lol.
VNighthawk is very good, I will stand by that. His ability to act as a deterrent against attackers is relevant, as is his flying and lifelink when racing (if you so choose).
I know it sounds janky, but I was considering bloodgift demon (the phyrexian arena on legs dude) as a singleton. Just because he flies, beats decently and helps draw cards of course.
Even after a little testing with Jace, I really like him. He really helps by weakening attackers (great for my VNighthawks) and drawing more cards is always welcomed.
Nicol Bolas costs ALOT but man, when he hits it is game over for them in the worst way. I play one but may go up to two copies.
I keep trying to make Liliana work more. She is awesome but isnt working so well. Typically I want her against decks like Bant, where they pump smiters/geists on turn two off mana dork acceleration. Shes terrible here as they can sacrifice the mana dork and still beat. Never use her discard against Bant, because if they have Smiter in hand your boned. I tried different setups like Pillar of Flame mana dork, then Liliana, but this isnt Magical Christmas Perfect Magic land sooooo if that doesnt happen and you get her too late, blah. Too bad because I really like Liliana too.
If anything its the removal thats killing me because you need so many different types for different stuff. So, I am keeping it simple for now. Pillar of Flame for mana dorks, ant-undying, and VNighthawk as pseudo removal. I even considered some janky two drop skeleton that has regen and death touch, and I even still might use it as another "wall" deathtouch removal dude. Seems that using the deathtouch guys is sort of like removal and buys time, which is critical.
Olivia Voldaren. I am continually impressed with her. She really can turn the tide of battle so quickly is silly. Plus, the fact that she flies, pumps and the biggest win is the posession ability (again acting as a better removal) is just ridiculously powerful. I just am training myself to be aware of Selesnya Charm more oten as if she is too big she gets exiled bu it. But posessing Smiters or an other midrange fatty is just dumb powerful.
Cyclonic Rift. This card is very good. Once you cast it as overload your adversary is always afraid of it and tried and play around it. Doesn't matter as they're are som many ways to break the symmetry by having just a little board presence.
Draco Genius. I think everyone should be playng this card if you are in the colors. I want to play two copies. If you untap with him, its just a win. If you play him later with open mana, he's win.
Regarding Liliana of the Veil - I guess she used to be much better when you could just Whipflare or Slagstorm all your opponents mana dorks/small creatures and then use Liliana's -2 to kill off their bombs but with the loss of small sweepers such as that, I may try out something else in her place and see how that goes. Still requires some playtesting after the meta is semi-established though.
I do agree with most of your other points however. Do you mind posting your current decklist?
I really like this deck, but i really dont wanna play desperate ravings:( I think think twice doesnt give enough reach and without the card advanatage early game you might end up short. Solutions pleaze! Ps: i was thinking izzet charm for the instant speed looting, but then you might wanna play snap as well which seems kinda bad
Running Desperate Ravings vs Think Twice really does depend on your playstyle and decklist. If you have things you want in your graveyard, like spells with flashback, then Desperate Ravings becomes a lot better. It also helps you dig further to find answers and the downside is obvious. Think Twice is better if you're planning to grind the game on for longer, I'm running it in my current decklist over Ravings as I don't have enough things I'd want in my graveyard, plus there's a lot of new graveyard hate now. However, this doesn't mean we shouldn't run Snapcaster Mage - it's still an excellent card and you can always board it out if someone's playing Rest in Peace or something.
Izzet Charm is an excellent card, but I don't think this deck is the best place for it. Think Twice and Desperate Ravings (along with Forbidden Alchemy) gives us better card advantage and we don't really need counterspells as this is much more tap out control than anything else. The 2 damage to a creature can be okay - but we would rather just have a boardwipe. I'm not sure, just need to see whats out there and playtest I guess.
Well the thing with Ravings is: random discard can really pisses me off sometimes. All I do is thinking 'pls not nicol bolas, pls not nicol bolas.' and then I go 'What? No F****'!
Think twice on the other hand is 5 mana for net 1 card advantage. Ravings has the upside that it atleast digs in your deck while giving the same advantage for the same mana.
Writing this makes me lean toward ravings, despite the AAAAARRRGGGH moments. Might as well gonna run Tibalt:D (i would if he was 1R instead of RR).
Why run snap? I think It has almost no potential here besides flashbacking a pillar. Thats not the snapcaster value i know from Delver: saving delver, leak, pondering, gutshot in react (pillar=sorcery speed) etc. etc. Nah, snapcaster I love you dude, we'll be together another time.
And I might wanna throw in 2 deathrite shaman in there. They could have their use in giving 2 life a turn, react to triggers, or maybe some ramp.
Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded is draw a card then discard a card at random, if it was draw 2 cards and discard a card at random (Desperate Ravings) then he would see a LOT more play and we could actually consider him lol.
I don't think Deathrite Shaman would be very good here. When are we ever going to exile lands from graveyards? Unless of course we discarded them using Forbidden Alchemy/Think Twice/Ravings. It's not really a reliable mana dork. The second ability is alright I guess, but it gets rid of SCM targets. The third ability is the one ability that we would want to use, but can't.
I've been looking at this deck alot and i think its being very highly undervalued. This list is extreemly strong and there are 2 real variants of it. I wanted to go with a more spell driven variant and i really like the results so far. So here is the list i've been looking at.
Didn't see alot of the hellkite as people's finisher. I think he is a dominating force in standard. He will land 5 dmg every time on the first turn and he pings little annoying fliers. This guy is fantastic.
Izzet charm seems like not even talked about in this thread, when i see it as maybe being our second best card. It plus snapcaster = endless options for answers.
I felt our planeswalkers were too slow and clunky. I like them against tokens and midrange which warrants them a sideboard slot. Other than that i feel like they just get in the way of other cards that do more.
And finally Mind Rot. This card is so ridiculous. You can isolate any two cards just but forcing your opponents hand down to two and nailing them. If you have a snapcaster in hand by turn 3 you know that your going to be able to whipe their hand clean. If you do that the game is yours ... every single time. The rakdos' return is just cleanup and a good finisher to help you win the game.
Toonamiguy: It would be sweet if you included my version on the main thread i think the deck is a variant enough to include it.
I've been looking at this deck alot and i think its being very highly undervalued. This list is extreemly strong and there are 2 real variants of it. I wanted to go with a more spell driven variant and i really like the results so far. So here is the list i've been looking at.
Didn't see alot of the hellkite as people's finisher. I think he is a dominating force in standard. He will land 5 dmg every time on the first turn and he pings little annoying fliers. This guy is fantastic.
Izzet charm seems like not even talked about in this thread, when i see it as maybe being our second best card. It plus snapcaster = endless options for answers.
I felt our planeswalkers were too slow and clunky. I like them against tokens and midrange which warrants them a sideboard slot. Other than that i feel like they just get in the way of other cards that do more.
And finally Mind Rot. This card is so ridiculous. You can isolate any two cards just but forcing your opponents hand down to two and nailing them. If you have a snapcaster in hand by turn 3 you know that your going to be able to whipe their hand clean. If you do that the game is yours ... every single time. The rakdos' return is just cleanup and a good finisher to help you win the game.
Toonamiguy: It would be sweet if you included my version on the main thread i think the deck is a variant enough to include it.
Have you been testing this decklist? How has it been going?
Same with Izzet Charm, it seems like it belongs more in a tempo deck than control? I do like your package of 4 Think Twice, 4 Dreadbore, 4 Mizzium Mortars and 4 Forbidden Alchemy - it looks consistent.
Same with Izzet Charm, it seems like it belongs more in a tempo deck than control? I do like your package of 4 Think Twice, 4 Dreadbore, 4 Mizzium Mortars and 4 Forbidden Alchemy - it looks consistent.
Edit: Btw, have you tried Tamiyo, the Moon Sage? She is a complete beast, epically after a board wipe. I would definitely recommend her.
A couple of your points are that some of the cards aren't really true "control cards" but i think that control has changed. It's alot harder to the big stuff consistently, it's alot harder to wipe the whole board at once now. It's too easy for aggro to beat you at light speed now in magic. So as far as the hellkite goes i think five mana is easier to hit and hits just as hard. If he sticks for the turn he lands and the next turn, he is a stud. You don't need a bomb to win. Nicol Bolas can win by himself you can burn out with a rakdos return you have other options, so the big damage in the are is nuts.
On izzet charm, same thing here the only thing "tempo" about it is the fact that it has the draw 2 discard 2. Shock and Spell Pierce are pretty good control cards and the charm lets you pick between them for one extra mana. It's pretty nuts especially when late game you can dick for the answer you need by popping extra ones with snapcaster. It's just versatile which is what we need to be as control ... ready for anything. Ultimately if you need a hard counter bring in dissipate.
I think mizzium mortars is strictly better than bonfire for a few reasons. The biggest is just what im talking about ... versatility. 2 mana for 4 damage to a mang is not bad. Its not as good as flame slash but the card makes up for itself with the fact that it wraths. being able to snapcaster it again makes it crazy for popping off pesky dudes.
And i like tamiyo alot. The problem is the whole "shes great when the boards clear" clause. But when the board isn't clear she dies fast and she fills a big mana hole. Ultimately a host of more slender cards can fit her functions better. The reason i like jace over her is he slows down all their attackers which vs mid range and tokens where they play 2-3 mangs at a time that hit for 2 3 and 4 he makes it 1 2 and 3. It makes a huge difference. And the other thing is his draw ability is so much more consistent and he's cheaper mana wise. Just strictly better but in my testing ( i had them both in before i ruled them out of the main ) i felt like the got in the way and games where i got off to a slow start. They just made a slow dance slower.
In my testing i can say that niv mizzet and mind rot have been mvp. The games i win are typically when i land one or the other. Another thing that makes the hellkite so good is that when he hits first and your next turn you play niv mizzet you really put them in a whole. They have to make a serious decision about who to kill. I am strongly considering 4 mind rots because of how powerfull that card is with all the mid range decks out there.
Anyone try Bloodline Keeper? If he untaps, he is such a house. I am going to try 2 copies of him. Also, is anyone playing Vampire Nighthawks? This guy is pretty sick for a new standard. Plus he's one of our few answers to Geist/Smiter or a Rancored beatstick.
Grixis control is one of my favorite formats and really the only true control I ever play in standard. However one card is worring me greatly. The new Troll that can get bigger than Pillar of flame and has re-gen. What would be the answer. Cyclonic rift?
Grixis control is one of my favorite formats and really the only true control I ever play in standard. However one card is worring me greatly. The new Troll that can get bigger than Pillar of flame and has re-gen. What would be the answer. Cyclonic rift?
A couple of your points are that some of the cards aren't really true "control cards" but i think that control has changed. It's alot harder to the big stuff consistently, it's alot harder to wipe the whole board at once now. It's too easy for aggro to beat you at light speed now in magic. So as far as the hellkite goes i think five mana is easier to hit and hits just as hard. If he sticks for the turn he lands and the next turn, he is a stud. You don't need a bomb to win. Nicol Bolas can win by himself you can burn out with a rakdos return you have other options, so the big damage in the are is nuts.
On izzet charm, same thing here the only thing "tempo" about it is the fact that it has the draw 2 discard 2. Shock and Spell Pierce are pretty good control cards and the charm lets you pick between them for one extra mana. It's pretty nuts especially when late game you can dick for the answer you need by popping extra ones with snapcaster. It's just versatile which is what we need to be as control ... ready for anything. Ultimately if you need a hard counter bring in dissipate.
I think mizzium mortars is strictly better than bonfire for a few reasons. The biggest is just what im talking about ... versatility. 2 mana for 4 damage to a mang is not bad. Its not as good as flame slash but the card makes up for itself with the fact that it wraths. being able to snapcaster it again makes it crazy for popping off pesky dudes.
And i like tamiyo alot. The problem is the whole "shes great when the boards clear" clause. But when the board isn't clear she dies fast and she fills a big mana hole. Ultimately a host of more slender cards can fit her functions better. The reason i like jace over her is he slows down all their attackers which vs mid range and tokens where they play 2-3 mangs at a time that hit for 2 3 and 4 he makes it 1 2 and 3. It makes a huge difference. And the other thing is his draw ability is so much more consistent and he's cheaper mana wise. Just strictly better but in my testing ( i had them both in before i ruled them out of the main ) i felt like the got in the way and games where i got off to a slow start. They just made a slow dance slower.
In my testing i can say that niv mizzet and mind rot have been mvp. The games i win are typically when i land one or the other. Another thing that makes the hellkite so good is that when he hits first and your next turn you play niv mizzet you really put them in a whole. They have to make a serious decision about who to kill. I am strongly considering 4 mind rots because of how powerfull that card is with all the mid range decks out there.
Anyone try Bloodline Keeper? If he untaps, he is such a house. I am going to try 2 copies of him. Also, is anyone playing Vampire Nighthawks? This guy is pretty sick for a new standard. Plus he's one of our few answers to Geist/Smiter or a Rancored beatstick.
Grixis control is one of my favorite formats and really the only true control I ever play in standard. However one card is worring me greatly. The new Troll that can get bigger than Pillar of flame and has re-gen. What would be the answer. Cyclonic rift?
Has anyone thought about combo-ing with an EOT overloaded Cyclonic Rift then casting Rakdos' Return on your next turn? That would be pretty brutal late game.
Has anyone thought about combo-ing with an EOT overloaded Cyclonic Rift then casting Rakdos' Return on your next turn? That would be pretty brutal late game.
Sounds awesome, but too situational. Going to swap 1 of my 2 Devil's Plays with a Rakdos's Return for some testing though.
I think there are always going to be mangs like Sigarda that just are hard for us to kill. There is no real answer to this card in these colors. However what you can do is going around this guy. His affect doesn't hurt your bonfire's and mortars, so you can wipe the board clean except for him.
Your answers are to side in slaughter games, and dig for it early to land it and make him a non factor. Or another example of why i love Thundermaw Hellkite. It's going to hit him and tap him and give you five damage through turn 1. And it also trades with him and lock's him on the board for you. Then you can use niv mizzet and rakdos return to win the game and nicol bolas can help in more specific situations as well. If they are running this guy, your deck is going to be so much superior to every other card they play that sigarda isn't going to matter, but this is one of the reasons that i liked the hellkite better. It's crazy good.
Lotleth Troll is a problem to deal with in Grixis colors. When I was playing the pre-release I was playing Azorius and Dramatic Rescue and Azorius Charm beat that thing easily.
My guess is Cyclonic Rift. Yes, I know its not removal, but Cyclonic Rift is can bounce the Troll after they pump him up and swing, wasting all the resources they used for pump. The fact is Troll is tougher to get rid of in grixis colors because of his regeneration ability and his ability to pump past burn range. Even Vampire Nighthawk is bad against him because of regeneration. So, until said time I am going use Cyclonic Rift as an answer for now.
I think the deck has to be more tapout style just from playing with different cards. You cant really just durdle because you'll just lose. They're aren't many instants in the colors I really love that much. I just try and play blockers or burn spells until I get to midgame where I can drop Olivia Voldaren, Niv Mizzit or Nicol Bolas late game, or overload a Cyclonic Rift Eoturn.
The few instants I do like are Izzit Charm, but not as much as I thought. Right now, slots are tight, and I need Pillar of Flame first beore anything. My turn two play is Izzit Charm or an early Cyclonic Rift to push them back a turn. Turn three I am ready for VNighthawk, turn four Olivia Voldaren, and up the chain to Niv Mizzit, overload CRifts and Nicol Bolas. Getting there against Bant and Selesnya will be the new test for sure. Those decks are mad fast and their midrange dorks come out fast and are big are hexproof Geists etc. I have even considered Thrillkill assassin because he is a two drop deathtouch deterrent to help stave off fast beats.
I have some suspect things like four copies of Cyclonic Rift. Let me assure you this card is good. Early game it gets something off your back and lategame it overloads for ridiculous advantage. Searing Spear might not be amazing but it is an instant and kills things with 3 toughness and can burn some face if need be. I dont want four dreadbore as dumb as that may sound just because it is sorcery speed and I like diversity in removal. I am not going for a Planeswalker build, mainly because its too durdly. I want threats that are more devastating. Olivia Voldaren stealing creatures in a world of not great removal is amazing. Bloodline Keeper going bananas is high power threat density. Niv Mizzit drawing cards and beating face is amazing. Nicol Bolas if he hits is backbreaking. But I need to get there. I dont know about you, but I need all the early game removal spread with the TKAssassins> VNighthawks into midrange threats. I onyl use two Scmages just because I think more than that is too many.
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This is a Primer for a competitive Grixis Control deck that is still being developed. It is the official thread to discuss Grixis in the Competitive Standard subforum.
Grixis Control is an archetype that can be built to battle any metagame as it is very easy to customize.
Here is a list of card options avaiable to us followed by sample decklists:
Card Options:
Planeswalkers:
Liliana of the Veil
+1 Empties our opponent's hands as we dump our flashback cards and Snapcaster Mage targets into our graveyard.
-2 Removal, gets rid of hexproof creatures such as Geist of Saint Traft
-6 Often devastating for your opponent.
-> Good in metas full of Bant Hexproof, currently best in the sideboard.
Jace, Architect of Thought
+1 Softens the blow from aggro decks
-2 Mini-Fact or Fiction. Helps us dig for answers early game and finishers late game.
-8 Search both your own and your opponent's library and grab what you need. Can use their own removal to kill their own creatures, or grab their finisher. Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is obviously a great card to cast for free from your library!
Jace, Memory Adept
+1 Draw
0 Great win condition especially against the control match up.
-7 Can be a finishing blow to an opponent, or finds pretty much anything you need from your deck.
-> Staple in the sideboard (1-2).
Chandra, the Firebrand
+1 Pings small creatures.
-2 Great with many cards. Use a removal spell to kill 2 cards. 1 Forbidden Alchemy to look for 2 out of 8 cards is great to look for answers. Hardcasting Bonfire of the Damned is suddenly much better.
-6 A Bonfire for 6.
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
+1 Best after a boardwipe. Tap down their only creature, or biggest creature, or even a land if they are mana screwed.
-2 Card advantage.
-8 Most often this will be game ending. You have access to unlimited removal if you have a single kill spell in your hand. Can kill an opponent with Bonfire of the Damned and even Pillar of Flame. Your Forbidden Alchemy's turn into "Draw 4" for 3 mana.
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
+3 Destroy an enchantment, artifact, planeswalker or land.
-2 Take your opponents finisher or gain a blocker if desperate.
-9 It is very hard to lose once you -9 on Nicol Bolas. Your opponent is often left with no cards in hand, and almost nothing on the battlefield.
-> Downside is that it is terrible against aggro, great against midrange and control.
Creatures:
Olivia Voldaren
- Pings small creatures to death and steals bigger ones. All while getting bigger herself.
- Not easily answered
- A staple for Grixis Control. Play as a minimum 2 of in the 75.
Aetherling
- It is by far the best finisher available in the current standard.
- Almost impossible to kill.
- Can be both offensive and defensive.
- Another staple, often a 1-of, sometimes a 2-of.
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
- Another Flying beater.
- Draws you cards while pinging your opponent.
- Pings creatures too.
- Both this and Olivia Voldaren are great cards to sink mana into late game.
Snapcaster Mage
- Reuse any spell you need from your graveyard.
- Blocks and trades with many things.
- Another staple, run 2-4.
Vampire Nighthawk
- It's a 2/3 Flying/Lifelink/Deathtouch for 3. It's a great card. After losing Wurmcoil Engine, Batterskull and Pristine Talisman, Nighthawk provides us with the life gain that we very much need.
- Pseudo-removal.
Bloodline Keeper
- Can be quite a thread if left unstopped.
- Has great synergy with Olivia Voldaren and Vampire Nighthawk
Lone Revenant
- Hexproof. 4/4. Helps you dig. Good in a control shell if running few creatures.
Augur of Bolas
- Helps you look for answers.
- Is a blocker.
Thundermaw Hellkite
- Best in a meta filled with tokens or in a more mid-range build.
Desecration Demon
- It is a 6/6 flying trample for 4 mana that forces your opponents to sacrifice creatures.
- It's not very reliable as a finisher or a blocker.
Instants and Sorceries:
Forbidden Alchemy
- Helps you search for what you need. Dumps SCM targets or cards with flashback into the grave.
- A staple, play 1-4.
Think Twice
- Play 4.
Desperate Ravings
- Often better than Think Twice as it helps you dig deeper. Obvious downside is that you can end up discarding the card you need the most.
- Think Twice is better if your deck doesn't have many cards with flashback.
- Desperate Ravings vs Think Twice can often be a personal decision depending on one's playstyle.
Amass the Components
- Drawing three cards is never bad. Although I believe Forbidden Alchemy/Think Twice/Desperate Ravings are probably better.
Faithless Looting
- Another form of digging although Desperate Ravings or Izzet Charm is probably better.
Opportunity
- The closest thing to Sphinx's Revelation for us.
- Run 1-2.
Doomblade
- Efficient removal
- Play as a 2-4 of.
Devour Flesh
- Good against hexproof
- Play 1-3.
Turn // Burn
- Answers everything, great against Thragtusk and Angel of Serenity
- Run 1-2
Far // Away
- Great multi purpose card.
- Answers Thragtusk
- Answers multiple creatures
- Bounce Snapcaster back to your hand
- Deals with hexproof
- Run 2-4.
Ultimate Price
- A suboptimal choice now.
Dreadbore
- Kill a creature, no questions asked.
- Can also kill planeswalkers.
- Only downside is that it is a sorcery.
Pillar of Flame
- Great in an aggro meta filled with Zombies.
- Sideboard vs Mainboard might be a meta choice.
- Play up to 4 in the 75.
Shock
- Instant > Pillar's sorcery speed, but suboptimal in every other way.
Bonfire of the Damned
- One of the few Sweepers available to us
Mizzium Mortars
- Early game removal and late game sweeper.
- Often played as a 1-3 of.
Magmaquake
- Probably the best boardwipe we have access to
- Is an instant
- However, cannot kill fliers
- Does not interact with planeswalkers well, best suited for a draw-go version of the deck.
Rolling Temblor
- A significantly worse Whipflare, but it's all we have right now. Great against aggro decks.
- Can be flashbacked.
Devil's Play
- Early game it is removal, and late game it is a win condition.
- Can be discarded with Forbidden Alchemy and Liliana of the Veil to be flashedback later.
Rakdos's Return
- Gets damage in AND disrupts your opponent's hand forcing them into topdeck mode.
- Downside is that it doesn't have flashback.
Izzet Charm
- Does all the things we need it to, gets better if running SCM.
- Often a 2-of.
Dissipate
- Staple, run 2-4.
Syncopate
- Can be run if you need more counterspells.
Negate
- Sideboard against control.
Counterflux
- Side in against control, often a 1-of.
Essence Scatter.
- Depends on your meta, can be a 0-4 of.
Dispel
- Side it in against control for Revelation.
Crypt Incursion
- Can be used to stablize against aggro, good against reanimator too, sideboard card
Izzet Staticaster
- Run 2-4 in side.
- Good against Aristocrat type decks, tokens, sometimes aggro
Slaughter Games0
- Excellent sideboard card. A Surgical Extraction that can't be countered and doesn't have to target a card in the graveyard. Great against control where you can exile their very few win conditions, also helps us get rid of troublesome cards such as Detention Sphere and Sigarda, Host of Heroins.
- Play 2 in the side.
Rakdos Charm
- Sideboard card thats artifact removal, graveyard hate and great against token swarms.
Cyclonic Rift
- An early game Disperse, a lategame boardwipe. Can be deadly when followed by a Rakdos's Return, however that might be too 'cute'. Good to side against decks running Detention Sphere and Oblivion Rings.
Sever the Bloodline
- Exile is very relevant.
- Great to exile 4x Geralf's Messengers or Lotleth Trolls, also kills a swarm of Entreat the Angel tokens.
Barter in Blood
- Pseudo-boardwipe, good against midrange strategies.
- Answers Geist of Saint Traft.
Searing Spear
- Instant speed removal.
- Kills Thragtusk and its tokens along with many Zombies.
- Interaction with SCM is relevant.
Artifacts and Enchantments:
Curse of Death's Hold
- Great against aggro decks
- Often a 1-2 of in the side
Demonic Rising
- Good in a shell running few creatures.
- Great synergy with Keyrunes.
- Not all decks have answers for it.
Pithing Needle
- Sideboard card.
Ratchet Bomb
- Grixis is not known for being able to deal with permanents such as Enchantments very well and Ratchet Bomb helps.
- Great against tokens
- Run up to 2 somewhere in the sideboard.
Rakdos Keyrune
- Provides Ramp that allows for a turn 4 Tamiyo.
- First strikes many relevant threats
Utility Lands:
Desolate Lighthouse
- Card filtering, use as a 1 to 2 of in most lists.
Stensia Bloodhall
- Can be a "okay" mana sink late game.
Nephalia Drownyard
- Another good finisher in slower versions of the deck.
Sample Decklists:
4 Blood Crypt
4 Watery Grave
4 Steam Vents
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Mountain
1 Island
Instants (25)
3 Doom Blade
1 Devour Flesh
2 Izzet Charm
3 Dissipate
3 Essence Scatter
1 Turn // Burn
3 Far // Away
3 Think Twice
1 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Opportunity
3 Magmaquake
4 Pillar of Flame
Creatures (5)
1 Aetherling
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Dispel
1 Dissipate
1 Counterflux
2 Crypt Incursion
4 Izzet Staticaster
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Slaughter Games
2 Jace, Memory Adept
4 Blood Crypt
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
Artifacts (2)
2 Rakdos Keyrune
Instants (12)
1 Cremate
1 Cyclonic Rift
3 Desperate Ravings
2 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Izzet Charm
1 Magmaquake
2 Tragic Slip
1 Barter In Blood
1 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Pillar of Flame
1 Rakdos's Return
Creatures (4)
2 Augur of Bolas
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
1 Olivia Voldaren
Planeswalkers (8)
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Tablet of the Guilds
2 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Annihilating Fire
1 Counterflux
2 Cremate
1 Dissipate
1 Izzet Charm
1 Griselbrand
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Rolling Temblor
1 Sever the Bloodline
1 Slaughter Games
4 Blood Crypt
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Swamp
Artifacts (3)
3 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Desperate Ravings
Sorceries (13)
3 Dreadbore
4 Faithless Looting
4 Pillar of Flame
2 Sever the Bloodline
Creatures (9)
3 Sphinx of the Chimes
4 Veilborn Ghoul
2 Olivia Voldaren
Planeswalkers (6)
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Negate
2 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Duress
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Rolling Temblor
4x Blood Crypt
1x Desolate Lighthouse
2x Dragonskull Summit
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Island
1x Mountain
4x Steam Vents
4x Sulfur Falls
1x Swamp
Instant (9)
1x Cyclonic Rift
3x Forbidden Alchemy
2x Syncopate
3x Think Twice
2x Dreadbore
3x Mizzium Mortars
4x Pillar of Flame
1x Sever the Bloodline
Creature (9)
4x Augur of Bolas
1x Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Talrand, Sky Summoner
Planeswalker (7)
4x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
2x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Runechanter's Pike
2x Slaughter Games
1x Nephalia Drownyard
1x Dissipate
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Negate
2x Dreadbore
2x Vampire Nighthawk
1x Ultimate Price
1x Sever the Bloodline
3 Blood Crypt
2 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Island
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
Artifacts (3)
3 Rakdos Keyrune
Instants (13)
1 Dissipate
3 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Negate
1 Syncopate
4 Think Twice
1 Tribute to Hunger
1 Ultimate Price
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Pillar of Flame
3 Sever the Bloodline
Creatures (7)
2 Desecration Demon
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
1 Olivia Voldaren
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
2 Pithing Needle
2 Knight of Infamy
1 Annihilating Fire
1 Negate
2 Tribute to Hunger
1 Ultimate Price
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Pillar of Flame
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Slaughter Games
4 Blood Crypt
3 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Nephalia Drownyard
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
1 Swamp
Artifacts (5)
3 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Staff of Nin
Enchantments (3)
3 Curse of Death's Hold
Instants (12)
3 Desperate Ravings
2 Dissipate
3 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Tragic Slip
1 Tribute to Hunger
2 Ultimate Price
3 Barter In Blood
1 Dreadbore
4 Pillar of Flame
2 Slaughter Games
Creatures (1)
1 Griselbrand
Planeswalkers (4)
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Tribute to Hunger
2 Olivia Voldaren
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Barter In Blood
3 Duress
1 Rolling Temblor
2 Slaughter Games
1 Nephalia Drownyard
Other Information:
1. The Hypergeometric Distribution (Draw Probabilities)
Leeched images removed. ~parinoid
Eds: Also, unauthorized modtext removed too. ~parinoid
Leeched images removed for the second time and replaced with appropriately hosted ones. ~parinoid
I really think Jace should be maindeck material. He is a permanent that draws cards, weakens attackers, and can get a Nicol Bolas out potentially for free.
I really like Liliana of the Veil, but even with support I dnt know if she will be good enough.
Jace/VNighthawk should be in here though, and probably 2-3 copies of Cyclonic Rift as a mid game insurance.
Ah, can't believe I forgot Bloodline Keeper, can definately be a good finisher.
How has testing been going?
How have you been findin Rakdos's Return and Rakdos Keyrune?
Have you been finding Bonfire of the Damned or Mizzium Mortars to be a better sweeper?
I completely agree with this.
Liliana is great too - she kills off something, sometimes a hexproof creature like Geist of Saint Traft
I still haven't tested Cyclonic Rift - wouldn't it be better running a sweeper instead?
P.S. I have updated the original post's card choices from all of your posts!
I'm also of the opinion that Mizzium Mortars is better in this build than Bonfire of the Damned. Bonfire is much better for a tempo play hardcasting it for one or two in the early game to clear the way for small beaters. Mizzium Mortars is better as a control option later in the game.
We might need to end up running a mix of Mizzium Mortars and Bonfire of the Damned, just because Mizzium Mortars can never be able to kill a 5+ toughness creature, unlike Bonfire.
I guess I could try run 1 Rakdos's Return and 1 Devil's Play? Flashback makes it such a good card, as it can be a two turn kill in the end, or just for the reason that you can discard it when Forbidden Alchemying or using Liliana of the Veil's +1.
I do run 2x Curse of Death's Hold in my Sideboard, but depending on the meta, it could be moved onto the mainboard.
VNighthawk is very good, I will stand by that. His ability to act as a deterrent against attackers is relevant, as is his flying and lifelink when racing (if you so choose).
I know it sounds janky, but I was considering bloodgift demon (the phyrexian arena on legs dude) as a singleton. Just because he flies, beats decently and helps draw cards of course.
Even after a little testing with Jace, I really like him. He really helps by weakening attackers (great for my VNighthawks) and drawing more cards is always welcomed.
Nicol Bolas costs ALOT but man, when he hits it is game over for them in the worst way. I play one but may go up to two copies.
I keep trying to make Liliana work more. She is awesome but isnt working so well. Typically I want her against decks like Bant, where they pump smiters/geists on turn two off mana dork acceleration. Shes terrible here as they can sacrifice the mana dork and still beat. Never use her discard against Bant, because if they have Smiter in hand your boned. I tried different setups like Pillar of Flame mana dork, then Liliana, but this isnt Magical Christmas Perfect Magic land sooooo if that doesnt happen and you get her too late, blah. Too bad because I really like Liliana too.
If anything its the removal thats killing me because you need so many different types for different stuff. So, I am keeping it simple for now. Pillar of Flame for mana dorks, ant-undying, and VNighthawk as pseudo removal. I even considered some janky two drop skeleton that has regen and death touch, and I even still might use it as another "wall" deathtouch removal dude. Seems that using the deathtouch guys is sort of like removal and buys time, which is critical.
Olivia Voldaren. I am continually impressed with her. She really can turn the tide of battle so quickly is silly. Plus, the fact that she flies, pumps and the biggest win is the posession ability (again acting as a better removal) is just ridiculously powerful. I just am training myself to be aware of Selesnya Charm more oten as if she is too big she gets exiled bu it. But posessing Smiters or an other midrange fatty is just dumb powerful.
Cyclonic Rift. This card is very good. Once you cast it as overload your adversary is always afraid of it and tried and play around it. Doesn't matter as they're are som many ways to break the symmetry by having just a little board presence.
Draco Genius. I think everyone should be playng this card if you are in the colors. I want to play two copies. If you untap with him, its just a win. If you play him later with open mana, he's win.
Bloodgift Demon does seem interesting, but I don't know if we can afford the lifeloss. We already have enough draw (Forbidden Alchemy/Desperate Ravings/Think Twice)
I personally think that Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius does Bloodgift Demon's job much better.
Regarding Liliana of the Veil - I guess she used to be much better when you could just Whipflare or Slagstorm all your opponents mana dorks/small creatures and then use Liliana's -2 to kill off their bombs but with the loss of small sweepers such as that, I may try out something else in her place and see how that goes. Still requires some playtesting after the meta is semi-established though.
I do agree with most of your other points however. Do you mind posting your current decklist?
Running Desperate Ravings vs Think Twice really does depend on your playstyle and decklist. If you have things you want in your graveyard, like spells with flashback, then Desperate Ravings becomes a lot better. It also helps you dig further to find answers and the downside is obvious. Think Twice is better if you're planning to grind the game on for longer, I'm running it in my current decklist over Ravings as I don't have enough things I'd want in my graveyard, plus there's a lot of new graveyard hate now. However, this doesn't mean we shouldn't run Snapcaster Mage - it's still an excellent card and you can always board it out if someone's playing Rest in Peace or something.
Izzet Charm is an excellent card, but I don't think this deck is the best place for it. Think Twice and Desperate Ravings (along with Forbidden Alchemy) gives us better card advantage and we don't really need counterspells as this is much more tap out control than anything else. The 2 damage to a creature can be okay - but we would rather just have a boardwipe. I'm not sure, just need to see whats out there and playtest I guess.
Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded is draw a card then discard a card at random, if it was draw 2 cards and discard a card at random (Desperate Ravings) then he would see a LOT more play and we could actually consider him lol.
We can flashback Ultimate Pricep, Dreadbore, and even Bonfire of the Damned with Snapcaster Mage. Different builds will use different spells, but being able to reuse anything makes SCM so good.
I don't think Deathrite Shaman would be very good here. When are we ever going to exile lands from graveyards? Unless of course we discarded them using Forbidden Alchemy/Think Twice/Ravings. It's not really a reliable mana dork. The second ability is alright I guess, but it gets rid of SCM targets. The third ability is the one ability that we would want to use, but can't.
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Thundermaw Helllkite
2 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Instant/Sorcery
4 Think Twice
4 Izzet Charm
4 Dreadbore
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Mind Rot
2 Rakdos' Return
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Blood Crypt
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Mountain
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Rakdos Charm
3 Dissipate
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Sever the Bloodline
2 Slaughter Games
Some thoughts i had:
Didn't see alot of the hellkite as people's finisher. I think he is a dominating force in standard. He will land 5 dmg every time on the first turn and he pings little annoying fliers. This guy is fantastic.
Izzet charm seems like not even talked about in this thread, when i see it as maybe being our second best card. It plus snapcaster = endless options for answers.
I felt our planeswalkers were too slow and clunky. I like them against tokens and midrange which warrants them a sideboard slot. Other than that i feel like they just get in the way of other cards that do more.
And finally Mind Rot. This card is so ridiculous. You can isolate any two cards just but forcing your opponents hand down to two and nailing them. If you have a snapcaster in hand by turn 3 you know that your going to be able to whipe their hand clean. If you do that the game is yours ... every single time. The rakdos' return is just cleanup and a good finisher to help you win the game.
Toonamiguy: It would be sweet if you included my version on the main thread i think the deck is a variant enough to include it.
Standard - W/R Boros the Blade
Have you been testing this decklist? How has it been going?
I don't really like Thundermaw Helllkite as a finisher, unless your meta is filled with Lingering Souls. Olivia Voldaren or Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius seem much more like control cards.
Same with Izzet Charm, it seems like it belongs more in a tempo deck than control? I do like your package of 4 Think Twice, 4 Dreadbore, 4 Mizzium Mortars and 4 Forbidden Alchemy - it looks consistent.
Have you been finding Mizzium Mortars better than Bonfire of the Damned.
I'll include your decklist in the main post.
Edit: Btw, have you tried Tamiyo, the Moon Sage? She is a complete beast, epically after a board wipe. I would definitely recommend her.
A couple of your points are that some of the cards aren't really true "control cards" but i think that control has changed. It's alot harder to the big stuff consistently, it's alot harder to wipe the whole board at once now. It's too easy for aggro to beat you at light speed now in magic. So as far as the hellkite goes i think five mana is easier to hit and hits just as hard. If he sticks for the turn he lands and the next turn, he is a stud. You don't need a bomb to win. Nicol Bolas can win by himself you can burn out with a rakdos return you have other options, so the big damage in the are is nuts.
On izzet charm, same thing here the only thing "tempo" about it is the fact that it has the draw 2 discard 2. Shock and Spell Pierce are pretty good control cards and the charm lets you pick between them for one extra mana. It's pretty nuts especially when late game you can dick for the answer you need by popping extra ones with snapcaster. It's just versatile which is what we need to be as control ... ready for anything. Ultimately if you need a hard counter bring in dissipate.
I think mizzium mortars is strictly better than bonfire for a few reasons. The biggest is just what im talking about ... versatility. 2 mana for 4 damage to a mang is not bad. Its not as good as flame slash but the card makes up for itself with the fact that it wraths. being able to snapcaster it again makes it crazy for popping off pesky dudes.
And i like tamiyo alot. The problem is the whole "shes great when the boards clear" clause. But when the board isn't clear she dies fast and she fills a big mana hole. Ultimately a host of more slender cards can fit her functions better. The reason i like jace over her is he slows down all their attackers which vs mid range and tokens where they play 2-3 mangs at a time that hit for 2 3 and 4 he makes it 1 2 and 3. It makes a huge difference. And the other thing is his draw ability is so much more consistent and he's cheaper mana wise. Just strictly better but in my testing ( i had them both in before i ruled them out of the main ) i felt like the got in the way and games where i got off to a slow start. They just made a slow dance slower.
In my testing i can say that niv mizzet and mind rot have been mvp. The games i win are typically when i land one or the other. Another thing that makes the hellkite so good is that when he hits first and your next turn you play niv mizzet you really put them in a whole. They have to make a serious decision about who to kill. I am strongly considering 4 mind rots because of how powerfull that card is with all the mid range decks out there.
Standard - W/R Boros the Blade
Tragic slip?
I guess that works. conditionally of course. Though at the same time so does pillar.
I guess I should ask what do we do other than bounce (thats all I can think off) against him when he gets huge.
I guess I really do need to test Izzet Charm in here, might warrant more Snapcaster Mages though. I will also test Mizzium Mortars over Bonfire of the Damned and see how that goes.
Bloodline Keeper is a great card but I think running Olivia Voldaren and Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius are probably better in this build.
Vampire Nighthawks however are amazing, I run 4 in my current version.
Dreadbore!
Getting around the regen: Liliana of the Veil, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker.
- Liliana of the Veil's -2.
- Blocking with Vampire Nighthawk.
- Bonfire of the Damned for 5.
- Sideboarding Slaughter Games.
- Cyclonic Rift is a temporary solution.
- Can also side in one or two Clones.
It is a hard card to deal with, but not impossible.
Also, vs Lotleth Troll, you can steal him with Olivia Voldaren.
True!
Sounds awesome, but too situational. Going to swap 1 of my 2 Devil's Plays with a Rakdos's Return for some testing though.
You can't use Liliana to get rid of Sigarda, and Cyclonic Rift only works with Overload.
Standard:
BUG Birthing Pod GUB
DCI Rules Advisor
Your answers are to side in slaughter games, and dig for it early to land it and make him a non factor. Or another example of why i love Thundermaw Hellkite. It's going to hit him and tap him and give you five damage through turn 1. And it also trades with him and lock's him on the board for you. Then you can use niv mizzet and rakdos return to win the game and nicol bolas can help in more specific situations as well. If they are running this guy, your deck is going to be so much superior to every other card they play that sigarda isn't going to matter, but this is one of the reasons that i liked the hellkite better. It's crazy good.
Standard - W/R Boros the Blade
My guess is Cyclonic Rift. Yes, I know its not removal, but Cyclonic Rift is can bounce the Troll after they pump him up and swing, wasting all the resources they used for pump. The fact is Troll is tougher to get rid of in grixis colors because of his regeneration ability and his ability to pump past burn range. Even Vampire Nighthawk is bad against him because of regeneration. So, until said time I am going use Cyclonic Rift as an answer for now.
I think the deck has to be more tapout style just from playing with different cards. You cant really just durdle because you'll just lose. They're aren't many instants in the colors I really love that much. I just try and play blockers or burn spells until I get to midgame where I can drop Olivia Voldaren, Niv Mizzit or Nicol Bolas late game, or overload a Cyclonic Rift Eoturn.
The few instants I do like are Izzit Charm, but not as much as I thought. Right now, slots are tight, and I need Pillar of Flame first beore anything. My turn two play is Izzit Charm or an early Cyclonic Rift to push them back a turn. Turn three I am ready for VNighthawk, turn four Olivia Voldaren, and up the chain to Niv Mizzit, overload CRifts and Nicol Bolas. Getting there against Bant and Selesnya will be the new test for sure. Those decks are mad fast and their midrange dorks come out fast and are big are hexproof Geists etc. I have even considered Thrillkill assassin because he is a two drop deathtouch deterrent to help stave off fast beats.
Current list:
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Izzit Charm
4 Cyclonic Rift
3 Searing Spear
3 Dreadbore
3 Thrill Kill Assassin
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Bloodline Keeper
2 Niv-Mizzit Dracogenius
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
26 assorted lands
I have some suspect things like four copies of Cyclonic Rift. Let me assure you this card is good. Early game it gets something off your back and lategame it overloads for ridiculous advantage. Searing Spear might not be amazing but it is an instant and kills things with 3 toughness and can burn some face if need be. I dont want four dreadbore as dumb as that may sound just because it is sorcery speed and I like diversity in removal. I am not going for a Planeswalker build, mainly because its too durdly. I want threats that are more devastating. Olivia Voldaren stealing creatures in a world of not great removal is amazing. Bloodline Keeper going bananas is high power threat density. Niv Mizzit drawing cards and beating face is amazing. Nicol Bolas if he hits is backbreaking. But I need to get there. I dont know about you, but I need all the early game removal spread with the TKAssassins> VNighthawks into midrange threats. I onyl use two Scmages just because I think more than that is too many.