i really like the idea of using fling in my build the more i think about it. it's another need for red splash of course but i havent had any trouble with getting red when i need it. one of the better plays it enables is attack for 6 with alms beast, essence harvest for 6 and then fling for 6. 18 damage and my opponent is dead on turn 4 if he used a shockland once.
of course that's just a christmasland scenario. the real strength of the deck remains the fact that almost every creature is a threat that can't be easily dealt with.
OP's list has Selesnya Charm which can take care of anything bigger than Alms Beast easily, which is neat considering the charm is mainly used to give Trample since decks with creatures that have power 5 or greater aren't the decks to beat right now. It also runs 4 Victim of Night that can't hit the Wight but it can take care of the aberration easy too. I am not discounting your deck at all but I don't think that this deck really needs to worry about building to beat the Millgro matchup.
The deck has plains as well so, of course, there will be Rest in Peace in the sideboard, sadly.
I wasn't playing my decks better then your deck, just pointing out turn 4 can see much larger creatures than alms beast
The list I ran in my last daily was almost identical to this, except for the vorapede, and tweaks to the SB.
Comments:
Abrupt Decay and Murder in the MB are perfect. Anything that a decay can't hit won't hit the board until you have BB1 for a murder. I'm very happy with it, as close to an unconditional removal suite as you can get in this meta, worked great in the last daily.
I took out the rancors, in matchups you want them in, a selesnya charm that they dont see coming works just as good. Against aggro you don't want to see them, and against control you would rather have more creatures or golgari charms anyway. I have found that SBing out Selesnya charms is a bad idea in almost any matchup. they're just too good in this list, all 3 uses. In my last daily I exiled Griselbrand, Angel of Serenity, and Thundermaw. Don't cut it.
The Vorapede is an experiment. I haven't tested it much yet, but it does everything we want, is resilient to sweepers and can attack through and still stay back to block. We can also remove the counter with resto. If he works out the next step might be swapping out a silverblade for a wolfir/or thrag maindeck. I've won too many games off double strike to discount silverblade entirely, but I really don't want him to ever be the first creature on the board. I know, Thrag. I'm not ready to put him in maindeck, but against aggro or control he goes in. Against midrange I would rather have the 5 drops in the md. Cutting a wolfir might be a mistake, I'll see how it plays. Wolfir is another card I don't want to see more than 1 (if any) in the opener, but 2 might be too little.
Lingering souls are out. In the esper matchup I lost, rancoring spirit tokens and playing around wipes only gets you so far in a world with 4x Sphinx's revelation. Run 4x Golgari charm in the board instead, and stick to the game plan. 9 times out of 10 when I golgari charm a wipe, thats game.
Sever the Bloodlines/Tragic Slip are primarily for Falkenrath Aristocrat. Sever has proven very good against UWR as well, since they play 4x of all their creatures (Reckoner, Resto, etc) and the games usually go long, so flashing it back is pretty common. The Ultimate Price is there for very aggro matchups, sometimes you need more than 4 2 cmc removal spells in the MD.
Anyways, busy this weekend, I'll try to get at least one daily in though. Thanks for all the comments so far, this list is a product of a lot of them (murder, vorapede, slip).
EDIT: Just noticed on mtggoldfish that Terminus (and Sphinx's) shot up in price today. This does not bode well if Esper foregoes Planar Cleansing for Terminus again.
the fact that you're playtesting and reporting results is worthy of respect. we should all strive to be more like you when we brew.
i didn't have an opportunity to test anything last night. when i get home i'm going to modify my most recent list by taking out 1 desecration demon, 1 thragtusk and 2 collective blessings and replace them with 4 boros charm.
my mana base supports red enough for this and i feel that all three modes are a decent fit for us. it gives me the doublestrike capability and it's a very efficient way to defeat sweepers as well.
I've been creeping this thread since you posted it and I'm in love with this creation you've put together. I'm slowly tossing together my own version. Just one question though, why not Sigarda? It was mentioned earlier by Nuclearsunburn and didn't see any response to it. He had mentioned it in response to replacing silverheart (I'm not down for taking them out I like them a lot) but I think she deserves a spot somewhere in the 75. She's a beast that will win you most games you play her, I've used her in just about every deck that carries g/w in it since avacyn came out.
Edit: Also have you given thought about planeswalkers particularly ajani and Garruk PH?
the fact that you're playtesting and reporting results is worthy of respect. we should all strive to be more like you when we brew.
i didn't have an opportunity to test anything last night. when i get home i'm going to modify my most recent list by taking out 1 desecration demon, 1 thragtusk and 2 collective blessings and replace them with 4 boros charm.
my mana base supports red enough for this and i feel that all three modes are a decent fit for us. it gives me the doublestrike capability and it's a very efficient way to defeat sweepers as well.
Honestly, brewing for me is somewhat sporadic, I have a bit of an aversion to standard at times, because I'm one of those people who tends to shy away from something if it gains popularity, whether that be mtg decks or whatever, it ceases to be "mine" when a bunch of people are in on it. I'm hands down primarily a limited player, but I like brewing decks if there's a healthy meta, and I really, really like tuning decks. I hated standard before RTR, I think I played in like 5 standard tournaments between Innistrad and RTR. I had no interest in Delver or Pod. End of pointless story. haha.
I'm very interested to see how a (almost solidly if you run Boros charm) 4-color version of this deck works, whether its feasible or not. As someone mentioned, you *could* sub Deadbridges in for alms beast, but if you eliminate black completely, you're cutting all your good removal. Then your non-damage (stupid Reckoners) options would be Pacificm effects and O-rings, which are a bit more unreliable.
I've been creeping this thread since you posted it and I'm in love with this creation you've put together. I'm slowly tossing together my own version. Just one question though, why not Sigarda? It was mentioned earlier by Nuclearsunburn and didn't see any response to it. He had mentioned it in response to replacing silverheart (I'm not down for taking them out I like them a lot) but I think she deserves a spot somewhere in the 75. She's a beast that will win you most games you play her, I've used her in just about every deck that carries g/w in it since avacyn came out.
Edit: Also have you given thought about planeswalkers particularly ajani and Garruk PH?
If I go the route of Sigarda (who I ran in my trad. Junk build) then I'm not getting as much power out of my 5 drops. A Wolfir drops 12 (potential power on board), Obzedat drops 7 (with the etb effect), and Vorapede is 5-6 that you have to kill twice or exile. If Lil' decks start to dominate, then Sigarda will def. be more of a consideration, but I'm ok with leaving her out for now.
Same thing for Garruk, I ran him in a lot of lists for a long time, but we really don't have time for him here. A lot of matches, we need to drop as much power on the board ASAP, and he's just a bit too slow. Against control, he would help, but I want more of an instant threat on board, not just 3/3s and potential card draw. He's always in the back of my mind if the meta shifts though. And I am leery about running more than 4 5 drops MD, I don't want to hinder the speed any more than it already is.
Played against an updated jund midrange list. Used the list that i last proposed with 4 boros charms. You CAN play four colors but only if you're not planning anything except for single G plays on turn 1 and 2. In other words avacyn's pilgrim and farseek and stuff like that are okay. Nothing else though.
It wasn't a really representative match though because in spite of a 4 to 2 advantage in the number of boros charms had by me over the number of big garruks had by him, he had no problem pulling and playing big garruk whereas i had huge problems drawing my boros charms. I did have him on the ropes for the longest time but eventually ran out of ammo and big garruk took over. Mana flood also happened.
Just missed a 4-0 again. Lost my only match g3 by swinging into two angel tokens with Obzedat, a Resto, and a pilgrim, while my opp. was at 3 life. He killed the resto with one, dBlocked Obzy with the other, and took 1, end step I exiled Obzy. Next turn he dropped a vault of the archangel attacked and went up to 6 and after az charming obzy (I had to attack at that point), he cast (another) Entreat the following turn. Soooo close.
3-1. Beat 2 UWR decks, Naya aggro, and lost to Esper PW tokens. Tokens and walkers over 3cmc are a pain for this deck.
Liliana is everywhere, right now, hence Sigarda. (Which a poster commented on, last week :)) The Ult Price int he MD is insurance against naya/boros human aggro lists that are starting to make a push. Vorapede isn't as good as Sigarda right now so he got cut, and there aren't a lot of decks that I need to push damage through, so the Seles. charms got kicked to the SB.
Things to think about: Might go an even 3x Alms Beast and 3x Demon in the MD. I don't really know how to make the deck stronger g1 against control, without compromising midrange and aggro matchups. It does great against UWR, but esper is very very tough. If it starts to make up more of the meta, I'll make some changes.
Still need to get my 4th godless shrine so I can sleeve up this deck. This is what I've come up with so far. After I trade for the land I'm gonna test it out.
Still need to get my 4th godless shrine so I can sleeve up this deck. This is what I've come up with so far. After I trade for the land I'm gonna test it out.
I really really like Disciple of Bolas, but I just don't think he fits here. Ask yourself what creature on that list you would happily sac. for 4 cmc and cards/life? By the time you can effectively use him its turn 4, and you have a beast/demon/smiter out, in an aggro heavy-meta, he's more of a tempo suck and liability at times. He's so bad in your opener too, I just dunno. He has a home somewhere, but I don't think its here. Maybe you can get away with running 1, if you really want, since you have the angel for late game, and it isn't quite as aggressive as my build. I have so many lists where the disciple starts as a 2-of and I always end up cutting him, if he was just a better p/t or less cmc he would be so much easier to use.
Why the Curse in the SB? Are you running into a lot of lingering souls/weenie decks in your meta? If its just tokens, consider illness in the ranks. Tokens are a pain for this deck, and 1 cmc is way better than 5.
Update on my list: I went 0-2 in a daily a couple days ago and 2-2 in one yesterday. So many of these games had inordinate amounts of variance (screw/flood) that I really can't deem the data that useful. I'm int he middle of a really bad streak of screw/flood in constructed and limited alike and its hard to stay off tilt.
In the 0-2, I was forced to mull around 8 times in those two matches, and lost to reanimator and aggro, both decks that this list tests well against, I was either flooded or screwed almost every game, especially against reanimator (g3 forced to mull to a 5 land hand, kept with 2 land. 2 RIPs (he decayed one), kept him from comboing, but I didn't draw another land the whole game (over 10 turns) and lost. Stuff like that. In the 2-2, I lost match 1 to r/g aggro (a VERY easy matchup for us) due to flood g1, then screw g2) I beat UWR and Junk midrange/reanimator, then lost to Aristocrats g4. Aristocrats can be tough for this list, but I lost g3 to a lone cartel aristocrat. We swung for a while and removed all of each others threats, and I was left with one land in hand and an empty board, and he had 2 cards in hand ( I assume land/removal, since he never played them) and a cartel aristocrat on board while I was at 10 life. I drew 5 land in a row (after I already had 6 on board and 1 in hand) and he won. Stuff like that. Completely infuriating.
Anyways, constructive conversation: The list I have now is exactly the same as the previous one I posted, but in the SB I took out the Selesnya charms/slip, and added an O ring, Big Garruk, and an Ultimate Price. In the MD I made Alms Beast and the Demon each 3x and added an O ring for the price (which I moved to SB). All of this is to strengthen our matches against Jund and Esper, which I feel are still the worst matchups.
After now winning like 80% of my games against UWR, I con firmly say we match up very well against it, especially post-board. You really need to play around stuff with them, and know how that deck plays though, with all of our big cheap creatures, its slightly ineffective to keep AZ charming our stuff (we just drop another 6/6 to replace it every turn), and once they see one golgari charm, they get gun-shy on tapping out to wipe. I'm very comfortable against them.
The paper meta seems to be shifting back to solid midrange a bit (Bant/Junk), but the mtgo meta still seems to be all aggro/UWR/Jund midrange. If the mtgo meta shifts this way (which it might, Thrag, resto, and AOS all went up yesterday), we might have to re-evaluate some stuff, but for right now I think this list is still well-positioned.
Lastly, I brewed a new Junk build that so far absolutely destroys Jund midrange and Esper. Its not even fair, actually. Good matchups vs. UWR and midrange too. If I can make it viable vs. aggro (which it is, but only if it draws an early mutilate :)) then it might be going somewhere, but who knows. Right now it folds to a lot of the decks that Junk Smash beats easily, so it needs a lot of work.
Your reasons for not running Thragtusk are pathetic. Thragtusk is one of the best cards against control as well. He is one of the few cards that leaves something after a sweeper.
Your reasons for not running Thragtusk are pathetic. Thragtusk is one of the best cards against control as well. He is one of the few cards that leaves something after a sweeper.
Pathetic? Ouch, nice constructive criticism. I upped the count to 2 maindeck in my most recent build, but against control, I would ALWAYS rather see Obzedat. If I know they have sweepers, I side in Golgari charms and don't over extend anyway, having a piddly 3/3 left over from a wipe when you need beaters on board before their card advantage rolls you, is really not a good reason to play 4x thrags in this deck. 6 of my 4 drops outclass Thrags anyway.
Sigarda nullifies Lil, can't be AZ charmed and outclasses Restos, and I think 1x Wolfir is the right number. Thrag is a useful card, for sure, but I really don't want a playset of them in here.
Also, let me say, outside of aggro, one of the absolute best matchups for this deck is Junk Midrange. This build consistently, and repeatedly wins against traditional Junk builds (which you run). It straight up outclasses them, in a hurry. It also has a very favorable matchup post SB against Junk Rites.
Pathetic? Ouch, nice constructive criticism. I upped the count to 2 maindeck in my most recent build, but against control, I would ALWAYS rather see Obzedat. If I know they have sweepers, I side in Golgari charms and don't over extend anyway, having a piddly 3/3 left over from a wipe when you need beaters on board before their card advantage rolls you, is really not a good reason to play 4x thrags in this deck. 6 of my 4 drops outclass Thrags anyway.
Sigarda nullifies Lil, can't be AZ charmed and outclasses Restos, and I think 1x Wolfir is the right number. Thrag is a useful card, for sure, but I really don't want a playset of them in here.
Also, let me say, outside of aggro, one of the absolute best matchups for this deck is Junk Midrange. This build consistently, and repeatedly wins against traditional Junk builds (which you run). It straight up outclasses them, in a hurry. It also has a very favorable matchup post SB against Junk Rites.
Did you really resort to your match-up against one of the decks I run as a premise in your argument?
Thragtusk is great against control because of that "piddly 3/3". Late game, he's one of the few cards you can comfortably draw against them. Play him, hopefully swing for 5 and connect, if not, at least you get 3 damage in the next turn unless they're spending two cards on him (and you mentioned their card advantage). If you ran a gavony or two, he would be even stronger. His effect against aggro just happens to be a bonus at that point.
Either way, you added two and changed your reasoning so I no longer care.
Did you really resort to your match-up against one of the decks I run as a premise in your argument?
Thragtusk is great against control because of that "piddly 3/3". Late game, he's one of the few cards you can comfortably draw against them. Play him, hopefully swing for 5 and connect, if not, at least you get 3 damage in the next turn unless they're spending two cards on him (and you mentioned their card advantage). If you ran a gavony or two, he would be even stronger. His effect against aggro just happens to be a bonus at that point.
Either way, you added two and changed your reasoning so I no longer care.
I did actually, because running a playset of Thragtusk just because you can isn't always the right call depending on what the meta is doing.
Thrag is good against control, but again, Obzedat is better. Right now control makes up very little of the meta anyways, and I have much better ways of dealing with aggro then Thrag, which is a big reason why I built this deck in the first place.
When I built this deck initially, Boros Reckoners were in every list. Thragtusks are almost useless against Reckoners. Now that the meta has shifted in the past month, they're much better (again). Notice how Junk Rites came back into favor as soon as Reckoners dipped in popularity.
Anyways, if nothing else, thanks for showing me how much I badly needed to update the first primer post, it was outdated.
This deck idea interesting and right up my alley. I'm glad to see some of the gimmicky cards have been removed/reduced. First thoughts(take them with a grain of salt since I haven't played the specific lists):
1. I couldn't agree more that Thragtusk is not where this deck wants to be. I don't even think Resto is. I understand the utility but the card feels distracting.
2. Why Farseek? Seriously I don't get people's love for it. The curve isn't right here. Yes T3 5 drop but this deck plays quite well off the strength of its 4 drops. When you play cards like Alms Beast/Desecration Demon you want threat density. You need to exhaust their removal, otherwise you get no value.
3. Essence Harvest is probably a sideboard card. It's not bad and I've had good experience with it but when it counts most of the time something else would have done the job, or it doesn't do much. It's a bit like Overrun but can out tricked. I find its merit is the opponent doesn't expect it. It's usually the worst card in your hand.
4. Looking at the list I'd definitely guess UWR/Jund is the worst matchups. You might be able to brute force Jund but I'm not comfortable fighting them for the best Farseek deck. Id be especially afraid of versions with Tragic Slip. Stuff like Desecration Demon seem ok against UWR since their threat density is so low. Riding Sigarda I guess isn't the worst here.
5. If control is a weakness have you considered A. Maindeck walkers- I guess Relentless is the only reasonable on curve. B. Adding more aggressive early drops. I realise Farseek is at odds with this but this alternately can provide resistance on board to aggro while upping threat density.
This deck idea interesting and right up my alley. I'm glad to see some of the gimmicky cards have been removed/reduced. First thoughts(take them with a grain of salt since I haven't played the specific lists):
1. I couldn't agree more that Thragtusk is not where this deck wants to be. I don't even think Resto is. I understand the utility but the card feels distracting.
2. Why Farseek? Seriously I don't get people's love for it. The curve isn't right here. Yes T3 5 drop but this deck plays quite well off the strength of its 4 drops. When you play cards like Alms Beast/Desecration Demon you want threat density. You need to exhaust their removal, otherwise you get no value.
3. Essence Harvest is probably a sideboard card. It's not bad and I've had good experience with it but when it counts most of the time something else would have done the job, or it doesn't do much. It's a bit like Overrun but can out tricked. I find its merit is the opponent doesn't expect it. It's usually the worst card in your hand.
4. Looking at the list I'd definitely guess UWR/Jund is the worst matchups. You might be able to brute force Jund but I'm not comfortable fighting them for the best Farseek deck. Id be especially afraid of versions with Tragic Slip. Stuff like Desecration Demon seem ok against UWR since their threat density is so low.
5. If control is a weakness have you considered A. Maindeck walkers- I guess Relentless is the only reasonable on curve. B. Adding more aggressive early drops. I realise Farseek is at odds with this but this alternately can provide resistance on board to aggro while upping threat density.
Thanks for the comments, I've honestly tested this deck more then any other standard deck I have ever played, and I feel its very viable in the meta at the moment while still being rogue, which is a good spot to be in.
1. The list doesn't have a ton of evasive creatures, and it has no instant-speed trickery. Resto provides both in one shot. Almost every game she accounts for a wasted AZ charm or a mortars on a Smiter or something, as well as providing an evasive body of her own. I would never run more than 2 here though. In this list, think of her more as a trick to protect our bigger threats that comes attached to a 3/4 evasive body.
2. Since we're focusing on 4 drops, a pilgrim or a farseek accomplishes exactly the same thing in getting a 4 drop on T3. Being that we're solidly in Junk, Arbor Elves aren't an option, and the deck really wants 8 ramp sources. Also, we're running 4x Loxodon Smiter and 4x Murder in the same list. Farseek helps make those mana demands work while having the added bonus of thinning out our deck.
3. I have had so much success in dailies with Essence Harvest in this list, that 2x maindeck is the perfect amount, and I really don't think I will ever change that. And yeah, most importantly, NO ONE expects it. I have had opponents down to 12 let my 6/6 demon through instead of sacing a spirit token or chump blocking it, because they had lethal on board next turn, and didn't expect a Harvest. Harvest - win. It can be used defensively against aggro decks too, the lifegain makes it a very useful card even if you're forced to use it earlier than you would have liked. Its saved me quite a few times.
4. The deck is actually really good against UWR so far, especially after SB, I was surprised myself. You really have to know the UWR deck in and out, and play around wipes and AZ charms when you need to though. They have very few threats, and the ones they do have are far inferior to ours. Jund is a harder matchup, for sure, but with the revised decklist, its a better matchup than it was initially.
5. Esper control is the hardest matchup, g1 is almost always a loss, post SB you have a shot though. There's really no way to make the control matchup better g1 without making the list weaker against aggro, and that's just a really bad idea right now.
See I was just thinking what would happen if you drop down the number of 5's to get early game it also requires a certain amount of lowering cost of removal. The thing is you want the ramp for explosiveness not cause your curve requires it. I have to admit I'm bit disapointed with the 2 drop options. I don't particularly like Strangleroot Geist. I'm just curious if you've tried anything along these lines.
I mean look at the list below. Have you tried anything like that. I'm not saying it's right but you don't really lose anything to aggro, but you can put on significant early pressure against control. The real loss is less spot removal for like opposing Reckoners but your 4 drops way outclass most 3's and you are playing decent 3's. I think Tragic Slip is especially relevant with your 4 drops. Also with that extra early output you don't have to rely on crutches like Harvest, unless you want it for pure race like against Reanimator.
See perhaps you could call the list below aggro itself but in a way presenting that threat density is the most reliable way to make sure conditionally good cards like Alm Beast or Desecration Demon do more work. It's possible that you need a ton of removal to make sure Alm Beast connects without giving lifelink, but then there is a high potential of the classic threat vs answer midrange issue. However if you view the 4 mana 6/6's as a sort of board control (almost removal in themselves) it actually gives you range to play less removal and more threats to pressure control.
It's quite possible the list below is missing a reliable mana sink to take in the Gyre Sage mana.. In a deck like that it will become a 4/5 or 5/6 if unchecked. Especially with Obzedat. The key part of the card is just having that many more 4/4's so to speak. It makes board decisions much trickier. Better it eating the Murder than the key threats. And since you curve out at 4 for the most part you don't actually need that much ramp.
EDIT: It's quite possible there should be room for 1 or 2 Silverblade Paladins.. I missed that. I will give this a few tries over the next hour or so and see if I get anywhere.
EDIT 2: First thoughts .. Alms Beast is fine just not particularly impressive although paired with Silverblade is interesting. Strangleroot Geist sucks. At first I really liked Primal Hunter, until I realized nothing I was drawing into was particularly impressive. Silverblade was pretty good. I've editted that list to where I got it. Most of the time the deck won with Gyre Sage beats and Mangler flashback, or Sigarda going long. Unless against super aggro decks the Demons and Alm Beasts were pretty promptly taken care of. Sure sometimes they won games but usually only in their ability to tie up the opponents mana to deal with other threats. I trimmed down the removal a bit too. Found I was drawing too much. In general I think the list while alright ended up lacking a bit of push. Too many lines for the opponent to play around. I felt I was giving them too many outs. Ways to be tricky to gain advantage against Alms Beast/Demon. I think they could be role players but I couldn't rely on them too much. Not the right shell..
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I went back to trying your original list to see if I was missing anything. I have to admit I have no clue how you beat UWR with it. The kind of openings I ended up wanting were very much out of the old GW playbook. Smiter into Silverblade to put on pressure then drop a 4 and try to push them in. I found if UWR player is smart and sits back a bit more, there is really not much from them keeping their life total high and chaining Sphinx's Revs. It basically comes down to if they have Azorius Charm. As much as Farseek into 6/6 was fun the follow charm felt like it wasted 2 turns instead of one. Sigarda is a house here and they really don't play enough permission anymore. So I suppose there are clear paths to victory.
As you've noted Control is really hard there is no real value game to play with them.
The aggro matchup is pretty decent. You run enough removal here that you can easily stop their early attack long enough to land one of the 4's which they just can't get through without burning the rest of their resources.. And then just can't get through the 2nd. Sometimes they could get pretty close but I mean those aggro decks are pretty nuts sometimes.
I tried a couple aggressive midrange decks and that is where your list just owned. The in many ways due to the popular removal choices and size they just can't win this battle. It's worse than facing Jund Midrange for these decks. Having the 4 Abrupt Decays pretty much completely nulled their 3 drops and kept the board clear to force hard decisions on 4 vs 4 battles. I felt like I was overdrawing removal but it just worked. Especially the more aggressive the deck tried to be. The deck probably has the best 3 to 4 in standard. Which makes me want to try several things with it. There has to be some way to offset the amount of removal to make it funciton and find a way put more value into the deck. That will solve the problem matchups in itself. Farseek feels really awkward sometimes since the plan isn't big enough, but on the other token going the more aggressive 2 drop route I just tried wasn't good enough in general. It shored up bad matchups but in itself wasn't doing anything particularly well. I will continue to look at it.
Testing it in the tournament practice room, The list actually worked out pretty well (especially against aggro), I tweaked it as I went along, and ended up with the build above. To give it a proper test, I actually ran it in a standard daily last night.
I ended up 1-2 drop, Lost to Esper Control and Naya Midrange, beat UWR.
Esper Control is tough anyway, so its hard to draw any conclusions comparing this list to mine. Game 1, he wiped 4 times, and Sphinx'ed twice and I still almost won. G2 from what I could tell he basically sided out most of his wipes after g1, and sided in Angel of Serenities. Meanwhile, I sided out a lot of removal for golgari charms, and yeah, not much of a chance. Biggest pain in the ass about this matchup is after they mill you out G1, they know your whole deck, which really hurts you. I wanted more removal/utility slots in this matchup though, mainly for o-rings/charms.
UWR - I think I just know this deck really well, I usually can predict their plays pretty accurately. I've gone up against this deck more than almost anything else in dailies, and as a result I know how to beat it if I draw halfway decent. I had a fast start game one, didn't overextend and used my removal to punch through damage, and he just ran out of gas. Game two I purposely overextended to force him to wipe when I had a Golgari charm in hand and 2 mana up, and he only had 2 up after tapping 4 for verdict (no dissipate/cflux). Had him dead within two turns.
Naya midrange - My original list is pretty good in this matchup, but I just got rolled hard using this creature-heavy version here. Both games basically played out the same, he ramped into Huntmasters/Garruk Relentless and started spitting out tokens to chump/swing. Eventually he landed a Thundermaw each game, and with really only 2 spells in this list (4 after SB) that can deal with that, I was dead pretty quick. I had a Demon out both games, but he kept sacing wolf tokens to him, so the Hellkite could punch through. I really wanted Essence Harvest, Murders and Restos both games, I could have won g1 with an Essence Harvest, and could have untapped the Demon to kill the Hellkite with a Resto.
Overall, things I was impressed with:
Gyre Sage, Strangleroot. In this build, Gyre Sage is way better than farseek, her p/t always ticks up, and she's almost always able to ramp into a 5 or 4 drop a turn early. The Strangleroots and the seven 3 drops are really what makes that work though, so if you take those away, she completely drops in usefulness. Strangleroots were great in any matchup were pillar of flame isn't involved, I was always happy to have one early. If there was a way to incorporate these two into my build without taking away the consistency, I would like to try it.
Things that were problems:
Dreg Mangler. Way too fragile, dies to anything. He got zapped by a spear or killed by a flashed in Resto a lot. I can't really think of another 3 drop in Junk half as good as Smiter unfortunately.
Removal-light. I was lucky enough to have decays in hand for Reckoners in the UWR matchup, but a resolved Reckoner is a major roadblock for this deck. Also, things like Thundermaws and Angel of Serenitys are major problems that need instant speed answers (Murder). The lack of removal also made the Demons and Beasts a bit more of a liability.
Overall, I think there is promise to this version of the build, it stomps aggro, and it probably has a slight edge against hard control over my list, but its softer against midrange. I really wanted Restos and Essence Harvests in most of my matchups. Giving your opponent an opportunity to make a mistake is easier to do in my build, and in a lot of tough matchups, sometimes that all you need to come out ahead.
Anyway, I'm going to tweak my original list a bit. I liked upping the # of stand alone threats, and 2 Obzedat in the maindeck made a noticeable difference too. I'll mess around with it tonight a bit.
Yeah.. I found similar conclusions with the aggro list. As I said the opponent basically had too many outs to the power 4 drops. I was hoping they'd be enough to carry games. But Hellkite is back in popularity (I shouldn't be surprised, if you look at the list in my sig, I've been playing the playset for the last month or so). The main point was you can not lose to aggro with lower removal count. Unfortunately there is not room to really brute force midrange, and the deck isn't fast enough to limit their options. Access to Burning-Tree, Boar, Hellkite, and Falkenrath make lists with red that much more potent for speed. Also there isn't enough value to really fight through them. I was wrong about Slip in the deck. It doesn't like slip the same way Sublime Archangel decks don't. You just want to clear the way not attrition.
The sideboard is interesting mind you. 4 Charms and 4 Crypts? It seems a lot to be bringing in for any aggro deck. They could probably only afford maybe 2 of each(in different matchups) without losing threat density. A list like that can't afford to play a ton of answers. I probably would have considered Tribute of Ferocity for the Esper matchup.
Your original list has an interesting position in that it's bigger than any deck doing what I was just talking about above. But it lacks value, which is why you have to run so much removal to the point that you can get value out of the big creatures. But this is never going to help against control. I don't think this even works well against UWR but I think most UWR players don't understand the role they are in, in the matchup. They should be just staving you off til they can Sphinx or Harvest Pyre. They shouldn't bring in sweepers but more cheap cantrips/tricks. Play their shocklands untapped and be aggressive with their mana. They shouldn't be playing out early Reckoners and instead focus on disrupting your ability to put things on the board/attack. Double burning 6/6's is perfectly feasible. Using Harvest Pyre and it's flashback to burn out 6/6' is feasible so filling the graveyard fast is fine. Early bad plays like that are fine because they are set up to have more card advantage eventually. Most midrange decks they can't play this plan cause they will be buried by threats like Thragtusk that might be difficult to grind through and Aggro Midrange will make them pay for bad use of resources as they top deck their Hellkites, and early Reckoner is backbreaking for them.
It's too bad there isn't a way to shore the gap to 4-5 with more real threats. Putting too many 5's in just eventually will feel top heavy and at the mercy of decks with permission. It's too bad you didn't have a better run against Esper with aggro. I was hoping that the aggro approach would atleast shore that up enough to get an idea of some middle ground, but even that wasn't enough. It's a hard deck to displace. Almost nothing is bigger than it so going under seemed like the best option. I don't have the same problem in Jund cause I have Domri and all my creatures have Haste. I was trying to borrow plays from there but Jund also has Slaughter Games for Rev. Have you tried replacing your removal with targetted discard? I guess Duress isn't good enough. You probably have a game 2 plan anyway. G1 isn't going to get any better without more punch but I don't know if it's in there. I wonder if a card like Lilliana/Ajani is playable. Ajani might even be better than Paladin in this deck.
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Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
Yeah.. I found similar conclusions with the aggro list. As I said the opponent basically had too many outs to the power 4 drops. I was hoping they'd be enough to carry games. But Hellkite is back in popularity (I shouldn't be surprised, if you look at the list in my sig, I've been playing the playset for the last month or so). The main point was you can not lose to aggro with lower removal count. Unfortunately there is not room to really brute force midrange, and the deck isn't fast enough to limit their options. Access to Burning-Tree, Boar, Hellkite, and Falkenrath make lists with red that much more potent for speed. Also there isn't enough value to really fight through them. I was wrong about Slip in the deck. It doesn't like slip the same way Sublime Archangel decks don't. You just want to clear the way not attrition.
The sideboard is interesting mind you. 4 Charms and 4 Crypts? It seems a lot to be bringing in for any aggro deck. They could probably only afford maybe 2 of each(in different matchups) without losing threat density. A list like that can't afford to play a ton of answers. I probably would have considered Tribute of Ferocity for the Esper matchup.
Your original list has an interesting position in that it's bigger than any deck doing what I was just talking about above. But it lacks value, which is why you have to run so much removal to the point that you can get value out of the big creatures. But this is never going to help against control. I don't think this even works well against UWR but I think most UWR players don't understand the role they are in, in the matchup. They should be just staving you off til they can Sphinx or Harvest Pyre. They shouldn't bring in sweepers but more cheap cantrips/tricks. Play their shocklands untapped and be aggressive with their mana. They shouldn't be playing out early Reckoners and instead focus on disrupting your ability to put things on the board/attack. Double burning 6/6's is perfectly feasible. Using Harvest Pyre and it's flashback to burn out 6/6' is feasible so filling the graveyard fast is fine. Early bad plays like that are fine because they are set up to have more card advantage eventually. Most midrange decks they can't play this plan cause they will be buried by threats like Thragtusk that might be difficult to grind through and Aggro Midrange will make them pay for bad use of resources as they top deck their Hellkites, and early Reckoner is backbreaking for them.
It's too bad there isn't a way to shore the gap to 4-5 with more real threats. Putting too many 5's in just eventually will feel top heavy and at the mercy of decks with permission. It's too bad you didn't have a better run against Esper with aggro. I was hoping that the aggro approach would atleast shore that up enough to get an idea of some middle ground, but even that wasn't enough. It's a hard deck to displace. Almost nothing is bigger than it so going under seemed like the best option. I don't have the same problem in Jund cause I have Domri and all my creatures have Haste. I was trying to borrow plays from there but Jund also has Slaughter Games for Rev. Have you tried replacing your removal with targetted discard? I guess Duress isn't good enough. You probably have a game 2 plan anyway. G1 isn't going to get any better without more punch but I don't know if it's in there. I wonder if a card like Lilliana/Ajani is playable. Ajani might even be better than Paladin in this deck.
The SB for that aggro deck was somewhat thrown together, against Esper I really wanted 4x charms, and I have been running into Rites everywhere on mtgo lately, so 4x GY hate is in basically all my SBs right now. I will say that I wouldn't even consider either of these lists in standard without Golgari Charm in the SB. Its the #1 card I want in my hand in UWR, Esper, and actually Aristocrats matchups too.
The UWR matchup is where Resto and Harvest shine in my build. In the matchup where I played the aggro build, I had the best possible opener g1, and then goaded them into a wipe g2 (they hadn't seen a G. charm until that point), so he kind of walked into that one. UWR decks walk a line between control and spot removal+board presence, and that kind of makes it easier for you to give them the space to mess up. Sometimes Restoing a Demon thats targeted with an AZ charm is all you need to win. They're usually trying to stall and max out their sphinx's too, so they get within Harvest range fairly quickly. Also, once they see a Harvest or a Golgari Charm, they usually go into crisis mode, because they have to second guess every decision from there on out. If they run a lot of snaps/harvest pyre I will gladly side in a RIP too.
If you side in Duress vs. Esper in this list, you're siding out utility cards/threats and even then you're relying on those Duresses being in your hand and hitting something meaningful (Sphinx/wipe), also Duress is only good in one matchup, when everything else in my SB is useful in multiple matchups, so they really don't justify the slots. My G2 plan vs. Esper is siding in Garruk/Obzedat G. Charms, and playing around or dodging wipes. Of course, if they start siding in Angel of Serenity, then I have to treat it more like a UWR matchup. Honestly if Esper really started to make up more of the meta, I would just go back to playing Jund. Junk just sucks against it.
I never really even considered Ajani, I don't know if I have the creature density for him to be super-effective, but the possibility of making a flying DSing Alms Beast is certainly something worth looking into.
of course that's just a christmasland scenario. the real strength of the deck remains the fact that almost every creature is a threat that can't be easily dealt with.
I wasn't playing my decks better then your deck, just pointing out turn 4 can see much larger creatures than alms beast
WU$50 Budget UW heroicUW
Modern
WR Boros Burn RW
Commander/EDH
(WiP) RNorin the TrollR
4x Loxodon Smiter
2x Silverblade Paladin
4x Alms Beast
2x Restoration Angel
2x Desecration Demon
2x Wolfir Silverheart
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
1x Vorapede
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Murder
2x Selesnya Charm
2x Essence Harvest
4x Farseek
4x Temple Garden
4x Godless Shrine
4x Woodland Cemetery
4x Sunpetal Grove
3x Isolated Chapel
2x Sever The Bloodline
1x Tragic Slip
4x Golgari Charm
4x Rest In Peace
1x Thragtusk
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
The list I ran in my last daily was almost identical to this, except for the vorapede, and tweaks to the SB.
Comments:
Abrupt Decay and Murder in the MB are perfect. Anything that a decay can't hit won't hit the board until you have BB1 for a murder. I'm very happy with it, as close to an unconditional removal suite as you can get in this meta, worked great in the last daily.
I took out the rancors, in matchups you want them in, a selesnya charm that they dont see coming works just as good. Against aggro you don't want to see them, and against control you would rather have more creatures or golgari charms anyway. I have found that SBing out Selesnya charms is a bad idea in almost any matchup. they're just too good in this list, all 3 uses. In my last daily I exiled Griselbrand, Angel of Serenity, and Thundermaw. Don't cut it.
The Vorapede is an experiment. I haven't tested it much yet, but it does everything we want, is resilient to sweepers and can attack through and still stay back to block. We can also remove the counter with resto. If he works out the next step might be swapping out a silverblade for a wolfir/or thrag maindeck. I've won too many games off double strike to discount silverblade entirely, but I really don't want him to ever be the first creature on the board. I know, Thrag. I'm not ready to put him in maindeck, but against aggro or control he goes in. Against midrange I would rather have the 5 drops in the md. Cutting a wolfir might be a mistake, I'll see how it plays. Wolfir is another card I don't want to see more than 1 (if any) in the opener, but 2 might be too little.
Lingering souls are out. In the esper matchup I lost, rancoring spirit tokens and playing around wipes only gets you so far in a world with 4x Sphinx's revelation. Run 4x Golgari charm in the board instead, and stick to the game plan. 9 times out of 10 when I golgari charm a wipe, thats game.
Sever the Bloodlines/Tragic Slip are primarily for Falkenrath Aristocrat. Sever has proven very good against UWR as well, since they play 4x of all their creatures (Reckoner, Resto, etc) and the games usually go long, so flashing it back is pretty common. The Ultimate Price is there for very aggro matchups, sometimes you need more than 4 2 cmc removal spells in the MD.
Anyways, busy this weekend, I'll try to get at least one daily in though. Thanks for all the comments so far, this list is a product of a lot of them (murder, vorapede, slip).
EDIT: Just noticed on mtggoldfish that Terminus (and Sphinx's) shot up in price today. This does not bode well if Esper foregoes Planar Cleansing for Terminus again.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
i didn't have an opportunity to test anything last night. when i get home i'm going to modify my most recent list by taking out 1 desecration demon, 1 thragtusk and 2 collective blessings and replace them with 4 boros charm.
my mana base supports red enough for this and i feel that all three modes are a decent fit for us. it gives me the doublestrike capability and it's a very efficient way to defeat sweepers as well.
Edit: Also have you given thought about planeswalkers particularly ajani and Garruk PH?
Hopefully your bad match-up vs. control decks will keep the meta in check
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
Honestly, brewing for me is somewhat sporadic, I have a bit of an aversion to standard at times, because I'm one of those people who tends to shy away from something if it gains popularity, whether that be mtg decks or whatever, it ceases to be "mine" when a bunch of people are in on it. I'm hands down primarily a limited player, but I like brewing decks if there's a healthy meta, and I really, really like tuning decks. I hated standard before RTR, I think I played in like 5 standard tournaments between Innistrad and RTR. I had no interest in Delver or Pod. End of pointless story. haha.
I'm very interested to see how a (almost solidly if you run Boros charm) 4-color version of this deck works, whether its feasible or not. As someone mentioned, you *could* sub Deadbridges in for alms beast, but if you eliminate black completely, you're cutting all your good removal. Then your non-damage (stupid Reckoners) options would be Pacificm effects and O-rings, which are a bit more unreliable.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
If I go the route of Sigarda (who I ran in my trad. Junk build) then I'm not getting as much power out of my 5 drops. A Wolfir drops 12 (potential power on board), Obzedat drops 7 (with the etb effect), and Vorapede is 5-6 that you have to kill twice or exile. If Lil' decks start to dominate, then Sigarda will def. be more of a consideration, but I'm ok with leaving her out for now.
Same thing for Garruk, I ran him in a lot of lists for a long time, but we really don't have time for him here. A lot of matches, we need to drop as much power on the board ASAP, and he's just a bit too slow. Against control, he would help, but I want more of an instant threat on board, not just 3/3s and potential card draw. He's always in the back of my mind if the meta shifts though. And I am leery about running more than 4 5 drops MD, I don't want to hinder the speed any more than it already is.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
It's not really so much of a bad matchup, its just tuned maindeck more for the type of 3-4 drop aggro that's all over the meta right now.
For my deck's sake, I hope control players keep running planar cleansing instead of terminus as their secondary wipe
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
It wasn't a really representative match though because in spite of a 4 to 2 advantage in the number of boros charms had by me over the number of big garruks had by him, he had no problem pulling and playing big garruk whereas i had huge problems drawing my boros charms. I did have him on the ropes for the longest time but eventually ran out of ammo and big garruk took over. Mana flood also happened.
3-1. Beat 2 UWR decks, Naya aggro, and lost to Esper PW tokens. Tokens and walkers over 3cmc are a pain for this deck.
Current build:
4x Loxodon Smiter
2x Silverblade Paladin
4x Alms Beast
2x Restoration Angel
2x Desecration Demon
2x Wolfir Silverheart
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
2x Sigarda Host of Herons
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Murder
1x Ultimate Price
2x Essence Harvest
4x Farseek
4x Temple Garden
4x Godless Shrine
4x Woodland Cemetery
4x Sunpetal Grove
3x Isolated Chapel
2x Sever The Bloodline
1x Tragic Slip
4x Golgari Charm
2x Selesnya Charm
3x Rest In Peace
1x Thragtusk
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
Liliana is everywhere, right now, hence Sigarda. (Which a poster commented on, last week :)) The Ult Price int he MD is insurance against naya/boros human aggro lists that are starting to make a push. Vorapede isn't as good as Sigarda right now so he got cut, and there aren't a lot of decks that I need to push damage through, so the Seles. charms got kicked to the SB.
Things to think about: Might go an even 3x Alms Beast and 3x Demon in the MD. I don't really know how to make the deck stronger g1 against control, without compromising midrange and aggro matchups. It does great against UWR, but esper is very very tough. If it starts to make up more of the meta, I'll make some changes.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Alms Beast
3 Desecration Demon
2 Disciple of Bolas
2 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Angel of Serenity
Spells (15):
4 Farseek
2 Ultimate Price
3 Murder
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Essence Harvest
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Godless Shrine
4 Temple Garden
4 Woodland Cemetery
3 Isolated Chapel
4 Sunpetal Grove
3 Rest in Peace
4 Golgari Charm
2 Tribute to Hunger
2 Witchbane Orb
2 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
I really really like Disciple of Bolas, but I just don't think he fits here. Ask yourself what creature on that list you would happily sac. for 4 cmc and cards/life? By the time you can effectively use him its turn 4, and you have a beast/demon/smiter out, in an aggro heavy-meta, he's more of a tempo suck and liability at times. He's so bad in your opener too, I just dunno. He has a home somewhere, but I don't think its here. Maybe you can get away with running 1, if you really want, since you have the angel for late game, and it isn't quite as aggressive as my build. I have so many lists where the disciple starts as a 2-of and I always end up cutting him, if he was just a better p/t or less cmc he would be so much easier to use.
Why the Curse in the SB? Are you running into a lot of lingering souls/weenie decks in your meta? If its just tokens, consider illness in the ranks. Tokens are a pain for this deck, and 1 cmc is way better than 5.
Anyways, let me know how it tests and good luck
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
In the 0-2, I was forced to mull around 8 times in those two matches, and lost to reanimator and aggro, both decks that this list tests well against, I was either flooded or screwed almost every game, especially against reanimator (g3 forced to mull to a 5 land hand, kept with 2 land. 2 RIPs (he decayed one), kept him from comboing, but I didn't draw another land the whole game (over 10 turns) and lost. Stuff like that. In the 2-2, I lost match 1 to r/g aggro (a VERY easy matchup for us) due to flood g1, then screw g2) I beat UWR and Junk midrange/reanimator, then lost to Aristocrats g4. Aristocrats can be tough for this list, but I lost g3 to a lone cartel aristocrat. We swung for a while and removed all of each others threats, and I was left with one land in hand and an empty board, and he had 2 cards in hand ( I assume land/removal, since he never played them) and a cartel aristocrat on board while I was at 10 life. I drew 5 land in a row (after I already had 6 on board and 1 in hand) and he won. Stuff like that. Completely infuriating.
Anyways, constructive conversation: The list I have now is exactly the same as the previous one I posted, but in the SB I took out the Selesnya charms/slip, and added an O ring, Big Garruk, and an Ultimate Price. In the MD I made Alms Beast and the Demon each 3x and added an O ring for the price (which I moved to SB). All of this is to strengthen our matches against Jund and Esper, which I feel are still the worst matchups.
After now winning like 80% of my games against UWR, I con firmly say we match up very well against it, especially post-board. You really need to play around stuff with them, and know how that deck plays though, with all of our big cheap creatures, its slightly ineffective to keep AZ charming our stuff (we just drop another 6/6 to replace it every turn), and once they see one golgari charm, they get gun-shy on tapping out to wipe. I'm very comfortable against them.
The paper meta seems to be shifting back to solid midrange a bit (Bant/Junk), but the mtgo meta still seems to be all aggro/UWR/Jund midrange. If the mtgo meta shifts this way (which it might, Thrag, resto, and AOS all went up yesterday), we might have to re-evaluate some stuff, but for right now I think this list is still well-positioned.
Lastly, I brewed a new Junk build that so far absolutely destroys Jund midrange and Esper. Its not even fair, actually. Good matchups vs. UWR and midrange too. If I can make it viable vs. aggro (which it is, but only if it draws an early mutilate :)) then it might be going somewhere, but who knows. Right now it folds to a lot of the decks that Junk Smash beats easily, so it needs a lot of work.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
Pathetic? Ouch, nice constructive criticism. I upped the count to 2 maindeck in my most recent build, but against control, I would ALWAYS rather see Obzedat. If I know they have sweepers, I side in Golgari charms and don't over extend anyway, having a piddly 3/3 left over from a wipe when you need beaters on board before their card advantage rolls you, is really not a good reason to play 4x thrags in this deck. 6 of my 4 drops outclass Thrags anyway.
Sigarda nullifies Lil, can't be AZ charmed and outclasses Restos, and I think 1x Wolfir is the right number. Thrag is a useful card, for sure, but I really don't want a playset of them in here.
Also, let me say, outside of aggro, one of the absolute best matchups for this deck is Junk Midrange. This build consistently, and repeatedly wins against traditional Junk builds (which you run). It straight up outclasses them, in a hurry. It also has a very favorable matchup post SB against Junk Rites.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
Did you really resort to your match-up against one of the decks I run as a premise in your argument?
Thragtusk is great against control because of that "piddly 3/3". Late game, he's one of the few cards you can comfortably draw against them. Play him, hopefully swing for 5 and connect, if not, at least you get 3 damage in the next turn unless they're spending two cards on him (and you mentioned their card advantage). If you ran a gavony or two, he would be even stronger. His effect against aggro just happens to be a bonus at that point.
Either way, you added two and changed your reasoning so I no longer care.
I did actually, because running a playset of Thragtusk just because you can isn't always the right call depending on what the meta is doing.
Thrag is good against control, but again, Obzedat is better. Right now control makes up very little of the meta anyways, and I have much better ways of dealing with aggro then Thrag, which is a big reason why I built this deck in the first place.
When I built this deck initially, Boros Reckoners were in every list. Thragtusks are almost useless against Reckoners. Now that the meta has shifted in the past month, they're much better (again). Notice how Junk Rites came back into favor as soon as Reckoners dipped in popularity.
Anyways, if nothing else, thanks for showing me how much I badly needed to update the first primer post, it was outdated.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
1. I couldn't agree more that Thragtusk is not where this deck wants to be. I don't even think Resto is. I understand the utility but the card feels distracting.
2. Why Farseek? Seriously I don't get people's love for it. The curve isn't right here. Yes T3 5 drop but this deck plays quite well off the strength of its 4 drops. When you play cards like Alms Beast/Desecration Demon you want threat density. You need to exhaust their removal, otherwise you get no value.
3. Essence Harvest is probably a sideboard card. It's not bad and I've had good experience with it but when it counts most of the time something else would have done the job, or it doesn't do much. It's a bit like Overrun but can out tricked. I find its merit is the opponent doesn't expect it. It's usually the worst card in your hand.
4. Looking at the list I'd definitely guess UWR/Jund is the worst matchups. You might be able to brute force Jund but I'm not comfortable fighting them for the best Farseek deck. Id be especially afraid of versions with Tragic Slip. Stuff like Desecration Demon seem ok against UWR since their threat density is so low. Riding Sigarda I guess isn't the worst here.
5. If control is a weakness have you considered A. Maindeck walkers- I guess Relentless is the only reasonable on curve. B. Adding more aggressive early drops. I realise Farseek is at odds with this but this alternately can provide resistance on board to aggro while upping threat density.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Thanks for the comments, I've honestly tested this deck more then any other standard deck I have ever played, and I feel its very viable in the meta at the moment while still being rogue, which is a good spot to be in.
1. The list doesn't have a ton of evasive creatures, and it has no instant-speed trickery. Resto provides both in one shot. Almost every game she accounts for a wasted AZ charm or a mortars on a Smiter or something, as well as providing an evasive body of her own. I would never run more than 2 here though. In this list, think of her more as a trick to protect our bigger threats that comes attached to a 3/4 evasive body.
2. Since we're focusing on 4 drops, a pilgrim or a farseek accomplishes exactly the same thing in getting a 4 drop on T3. Being that we're solidly in Junk, Arbor Elves aren't an option, and the deck really wants 8 ramp sources. Also, we're running 4x Loxodon Smiter and 4x Murder in the same list. Farseek helps make those mana demands work while having the added bonus of thinning out our deck.
3. I have had so much success in dailies with Essence Harvest in this list, that 2x maindeck is the perfect amount, and I really don't think I will ever change that. And yeah, most importantly, NO ONE expects it. I have had opponents down to 12 let my 6/6 demon through instead of sacing a spirit token or chump blocking it, because they had lethal on board next turn, and didn't expect a Harvest. Harvest - win. It can be used defensively against aggro decks too, the lifegain makes it a very useful card even if you're forced to use it earlier than you would have liked. Its saved me quite a few times.
4. The deck is actually really good against UWR so far, especially after SB, I was surprised myself. You really have to know the UWR deck in and out, and play around wipes and AZ charms when you need to though. They have very few threats, and the ones they do have are far inferior to ours. Jund is a harder matchup, for sure, but with the revised decklist, its a better matchup than it was initially.
5. Esper control is the hardest matchup, g1 is almost always a loss, post SB you have a shot though. There's really no way to make the control matchup better g1 without making the list weaker against aggro, and that's just a really bad idea right now.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
I mean look at the list below. Have you tried anything like that. I'm not saying it's right but you don't really lose anything to aggro, but you can put on significant early pressure against control. The real loss is less spot removal for like opposing Reckoners but your 4 drops way outclass most 3's and you are playing decent 3's. I think Tragic Slip is especially relevant with your 4 drops. Also with that extra early output you don't have to rely on crutches like Harvest, unless you want it for pure race like against Reanimator.
See perhaps you could call the list below aggro itself but in a way presenting that threat density is the most reliable way to make sure conditionally good cards like Alm Beast or Desecration Demon do more work. It's possible that you need a ton of removal to make sure Alm Beast connects without giving lifelink, but then there is a high potential of the classic threat vs answer midrange issue. However if you view the 4 mana 6/6's as a sort of board control (almost removal in themselves) it actually gives you range to play less removal and more threats to pressure control.
It's quite possible the list below is missing a reliable mana sink to take in the Gyre Sage mana.. In a deck like that it will become a 4/5 or 5/6 if unchecked. Especially with Obzedat. The key part of the card is just having that many more 4/4's so to speak. It makes board decisions much trickier. Better it eating the Murder than the key threats. And since you curve out at 4 for the most part you don't actually need that much ramp.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Godless Shrine
4 Temple Garden
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Isolated Chapel
4 Sunpetal Grove
1 Gavony Township
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Gyre Sage
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Dreg Mangler
2 Silverblade Paladin
4 Alms Beast
3 Desecration Demon
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Call of the Conclave
1 Murder
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
EDIT: It's quite possible there should be room for 1 or 2 Silverblade Paladins.. I missed that. I will give this a few tries over the next hour or so and see if I get anywhere.
EDIT 2: First thoughts .. Alms Beast is fine just not particularly impressive although paired with Silverblade is interesting. Strangleroot Geist sucks. At first I really liked Primal Hunter, until I realized nothing I was drawing into was particularly impressive. Silverblade was pretty good. I've editted that list to where I got it. Most of the time the deck won with Gyre Sage beats and Mangler flashback, or Sigarda going long. Unless against super aggro decks the Demons and Alm Beasts were pretty promptly taken care of. Sure sometimes they won games but usually only in their ability to tie up the opponents mana to deal with other threats. I trimmed down the removal a bit too. Found I was drawing too much. In general I think the list while alright ended up lacking a bit of push. Too many lines for the opponent to play around. I felt I was giving them too many outs. Ways to be tricky to gain advantage against Alms Beast/Demon. I think they could be role players but I couldn't rely on them too much. Not the right shell..
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I went back to trying your original list to see if I was missing anything. I have to admit I have no clue how you beat UWR with it. The kind of openings I ended up wanting were very much out of the old GW playbook. Smiter into Silverblade to put on pressure then drop a 4 and try to push them in. I found if UWR player is smart and sits back a bit more, there is really not much from them keeping their life total high and chaining Sphinx's Revs. It basically comes down to if they have Azorius Charm. As much as Farseek into 6/6 was fun the follow charm felt like it wasted 2 turns instead of one. Sigarda is a house here and they really don't play enough permission anymore. So I suppose there are clear paths to victory.
As you've noted Control is really hard there is no real value game to play with them.
The aggro matchup is pretty decent. You run enough removal here that you can easily stop their early attack long enough to land one of the 4's which they just can't get through without burning the rest of their resources.. And then just can't get through the 2nd. Sometimes they could get pretty close but I mean those aggro decks are pretty nuts sometimes.
I tried a couple aggressive midrange decks and that is where your list just owned. The in many ways due to the popular removal choices and size they just can't win this battle. It's worse than facing Jund Midrange for these decks. Having the 4 Abrupt Decays pretty much completely nulled their 3 drops and kept the board clear to force hard decisions on 4 vs 4 battles. I felt like I was overdrawing removal but it just worked. Especially the more aggressive the deck tried to be. The deck probably has the best 3 to 4 in standard. Which makes me want to try several things with it. There has to be some way to offset the amount of removal to make it funciton and find a way put more value into the deck. That will solve the problem matchups in itself. Farseek feels really awkward sometimes since the plan isn't big enough, but on the other token going the more aggressive 2 drop route I just tried wasn't good enough in general. It shored up bad matchups but in itself wasn't doing anything particularly well. I will continue to look at it.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4x Gyre Sage
3x Strangleroot Geist
3x Dreg Mangler
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Desecration Demon
4x Alms Beast
2x Obzedat, Ghost Council
1x Thragtusk
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Murder
2x Tragic Slip
4x Temple Garden
4x Godless Shrine
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Woodland Cemetery
4x Isolated Chapel
3x Sunpetal Grove
1x Gavony Township
4x Golgari Charm
4x Tormods Crypt
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
2x Sigarda Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
1x Ultimate Price
Testing it in the tournament practice room, The list actually worked out pretty well (especially against aggro), I tweaked it as I went along, and ended up with the build above. To give it a proper test, I actually ran it in a standard daily last night.
I ended up 1-2 drop, Lost to Esper Control and Naya Midrange, beat UWR.
Esper Control is tough anyway, so its hard to draw any conclusions comparing this list to mine. Game 1, he wiped 4 times, and Sphinx'ed twice and I still almost won. G2 from what I could tell he basically sided out most of his wipes after g1, and sided in Angel of Serenities. Meanwhile, I sided out a lot of removal for golgari charms, and yeah, not much of a chance. Biggest pain in the ass about this matchup is after they mill you out G1, they know your whole deck, which really hurts you. I wanted more removal/utility slots in this matchup though, mainly for o-rings/charms.
UWR - I think I just know this deck really well, I usually can predict their plays pretty accurately. I've gone up against this deck more than almost anything else in dailies, and as a result I know how to beat it if I draw halfway decent. I had a fast start game one, didn't overextend and used my removal to punch through damage, and he just ran out of gas. Game two I purposely overextended to force him to wipe when I had a Golgari charm in hand and 2 mana up, and he only had 2 up after tapping 4 for verdict (no dissipate/cflux). Had him dead within two turns.
Naya midrange - My original list is pretty good in this matchup, but I just got rolled hard using this creature-heavy version here. Both games basically played out the same, he ramped into Huntmasters/Garruk Relentless and started spitting out tokens to chump/swing. Eventually he landed a Thundermaw each game, and with really only 2 spells in this list (4 after SB) that can deal with that, I was dead pretty quick. I had a Demon out both games, but he kept sacing wolf tokens to him, so the Hellkite could punch through. I really wanted Essence Harvest, Murders and Restos both games, I could have won g1 with an Essence Harvest, and could have untapped the Demon to kill the Hellkite with a Resto.
Overall, things I was impressed with:
Gyre Sage, Strangleroot. In this build, Gyre Sage is way better than farseek, her p/t always ticks up, and she's almost always able to ramp into a 5 or 4 drop a turn early. The Strangleroots and the seven 3 drops are really what makes that work though, so if you take those away, she completely drops in usefulness. Strangleroots were great in any matchup were pillar of flame isn't involved, I was always happy to have one early. If there was a way to incorporate these two into my build without taking away the consistency, I would like to try it.
Things that were problems:
Dreg Mangler. Way too fragile, dies to anything. He got zapped by a spear or killed by a flashed in Resto a lot. I can't really think of another 3 drop in Junk half as good as Smiter unfortunately.
Removal-light. I was lucky enough to have decays in hand for Reckoners in the UWR matchup, but a resolved Reckoner is a major roadblock for this deck. Also, things like Thundermaws and Angel of Serenitys are major problems that need instant speed answers (Murder). The lack of removal also made the Demons and Beasts a bit more of a liability.
Overall, I think there is promise to this version of the build, it stomps aggro, and it probably has a slight edge against hard control over my list, but its softer against midrange. I really wanted Restos and Essence Harvests in most of my matchups. Giving your opponent an opportunity to make a mistake is easier to do in my build, and in a lot of tough matchups, sometimes that all you need to come out ahead.
Anyway, I'm going to tweak my original list a bit. I liked upping the # of stand alone threats, and 2 Obzedat in the maindeck made a noticeable difference too. I'll mess around with it tonight a bit.
Thanks for all the input!!
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
The sideboard is interesting mind you. 4 Charms and 4 Crypts? It seems a lot to be bringing in for any aggro deck. They could probably only afford maybe 2 of each(in different matchups) without losing threat density. A list like that can't afford to play a ton of answers. I probably would have considered Tribute of Ferocity for the Esper matchup.
Your original list has an interesting position in that it's bigger than any deck doing what I was just talking about above. But it lacks value, which is why you have to run so much removal to the point that you can get value out of the big creatures. But this is never going to help against control. I don't think this even works well against UWR but I think most UWR players don't understand the role they are in, in the matchup. They should be just staving you off til they can Sphinx or Harvest Pyre. They shouldn't bring in sweepers but more cheap cantrips/tricks. Play their shocklands untapped and be aggressive with their mana. They shouldn't be playing out early Reckoners and instead focus on disrupting your ability to put things on the board/attack. Double burning 6/6's is perfectly feasible. Using Harvest Pyre and it's flashback to burn out 6/6' is feasible so filling the graveyard fast is fine. Early bad plays like that are fine because they are set up to have more card advantage eventually. Most midrange decks they can't play this plan cause they will be buried by threats like Thragtusk that might be difficult to grind through and Aggro Midrange will make them pay for bad use of resources as they top deck their Hellkites, and early Reckoner is backbreaking for them.
It's too bad there isn't a way to shore the gap to 4-5 with more real threats. Putting too many 5's in just eventually will feel top heavy and at the mercy of decks with permission. It's too bad you didn't have a better run against Esper with aggro. I was hoping that the aggro approach would atleast shore that up enough to get an idea of some middle ground, but even that wasn't enough. It's a hard deck to displace. Almost nothing is bigger than it so going under seemed like the best option. I don't have the same problem in Jund cause I have Domri and all my creatures have Haste. I was trying to borrow plays from there but Jund also has Slaughter Games for Rev. Have you tried replacing your removal with targetted discard? I guess Duress isn't good enough. You probably have a game 2 plan anyway. G1 isn't going to get any better without more punch but I don't know if it's in there. I wonder if a card like Lilliana/Ajani is playable. Ajani might even be better than Paladin in this deck.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
The SB for that aggro deck was somewhat thrown together, against Esper I really wanted 4x charms, and I have been running into Rites everywhere on mtgo lately, so 4x GY hate is in basically all my SBs right now. I will say that I wouldn't even consider either of these lists in standard without Golgari Charm in the SB. Its the #1 card I want in my hand in UWR, Esper, and actually Aristocrats matchups too.
The UWR matchup is where Resto and Harvest shine in my build. In the matchup where I played the aggro build, I had the best possible opener g1, and then goaded them into a wipe g2 (they hadn't seen a G. charm until that point), so he kind of walked into that one. UWR decks walk a line between control and spot removal+board presence, and that kind of makes it easier for you to give them the space to mess up. Sometimes Restoing a Demon thats targeted with an AZ charm is all you need to win. They're usually trying to stall and max out their sphinx's too, so they get within Harvest range fairly quickly. Also, once they see a Harvest or a Golgari Charm, they usually go into crisis mode, because they have to second guess every decision from there on out. If they run a lot of snaps/harvest pyre I will gladly side in a RIP too.
If you side in Duress vs. Esper in this list, you're siding out utility cards/threats and even then you're relying on those Duresses being in your hand and hitting something meaningful (Sphinx/wipe), also Duress is only good in one matchup, when everything else in my SB is useful in multiple matchups, so they really don't justify the slots. My G2 plan vs. Esper is siding in Garruk/Obzedat G. Charms, and playing around or dodging wipes. Of course, if they start siding in Angel of Serenity, then I have to treat it more like a UWR matchup. Honestly if Esper really started to make up more of the meta, I would just go back to playing Jund. Junk just sucks against it.
I never really even considered Ajani, I don't know if I have the creature density for him to be super-effective, but the possibility of making a flying DSing Alms Beast is certainly something worth looking into.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc