I guess I'm less impressed with Charm. I don't mind having the option and it seems like a good swap for abrupt decay. But at a certain point the regen is worse than having more threats. Especially if it causes you not to take certain lines. I'd rather play more threats and potential card advantage that isn't as time sensitive. It's another card that leads to blowouts but it can dilute decks.
I'm big on creating midrange decks that can beat control. In this format I've found it to be permanence(the fact planar cleansing is playable is a nod to that). I think the deck needs something around 3 mana that gives value and is decent across the board. It's why Domri is so good. I didn't realize how good at first but the Metagame is starting to catch up. Garruk is good just expensive. As I see it Farseek is why the timing isn't right against control. Jund Midrange has similar issues but their Farseek payoff is arguably better(Thragtusk, Garruk, Olivia, Return) and they can play Slaughter games right off the Farseek. I'm not sure Ajani is good enough. But I imagine those Silverblades get sandbagged. I think Ajani probably needs a slightly different shell. But the issue with Esper definitely has to come from the early game if the value isn't there late. You need to pressure their mana early.
The thing is right now, Esper isn't really that big in the mtgo meta. Its there for sure, but I run into it usually once in every other event. Its really tough to tweak the MD for control without losing out in Aggro or Midrange matchups, which along with UWR, is what I run into most of the time.
Anyways, I tested Ajani in my original (lets just call it the Farseek) list, and I was right, the creature density isn't there for him, not enough creatures at 3 cmc and less in that build for him to be really effective, 1x Silverblade is better there.
However, in the Aggro build, if you free up a couple of those Mangler slots for Ajani, he actually does some really good work. I also cut the 5 drops down to just 2 Obzedats, added a Resto, cut the land count to 23, and my non creature spells are 4x Decay, 2x O-Ring, 1x Murder, 1x Harvest (yeah, I had to try at least one out). The SB is basically straight swaps for the 2 5 drop slots (Thrag/Sigarda/garruk), and swaps for the non-creature slots (Ult Price/Murder/Sever), with 2x each golg charms and crypts. No dailies yesterday, but the deck is already doing better in rough testing, the removal suite does way better work in the midrange matches. If I tweak it more I'll post a decklist of that version.
Unfortunately, what both of these lists really want is to run 6x Loxodon Smiter. That would be just about perfect.
Again, thanks for all the input, we basically have two viable versions of this deck now, and I'm just trying to figure out the best one to run with regard to the meta.
So I played this at FNM tonight and it was A. really fun, and B. pretty strong against a variety of decks. probably going to stick with it.
FNM report.
1st round vs. G/B something.
This guy was pretty new and was playing a wide variety of not so good cards. I easily won 2-0 so nothing to report.
2nd round vs. Esper Reanimator.
First game, i get in with an alms beast and he is forced to wrath. i then play a wofir silverheart and pilgrim and he promptly plays and angel of serenity. i have an o-ring for the angel, play sorin, make a token and pass. he passes back, i play silverheart, pair with the token and swing. he is low on life so e is forced to azorius charm it, I make another, pair it with silverheart, he draws his card and scoops.
Second game, I side in my 4x deathrite shaman. I take out 1x alms beast, 1x farseek, 2x ultimate price. He mulls to five and i keep and sketchy 2 lander with a shaman. I end up doing 6 damage to him before he has to wrath away my shaman. i eventually get to a sigarda, followed by an obzedat. he stone walls me with a ton of lingering souls tokens, but obzedat just whittles away at him and he lost.
3rd round vs RUW midrange/fllash.
game one goes as expected with a turn three geist. he swing the next turn and i ultimate price the token. on my turn i play sigarda. he is stuck at three land, and finally just swings into the sigarda with geist. i kill the geist and sigarda just put the beats on at that point.
I side in 4x devour flesh for 2x ultimate price, 1x alms beast and 1x farseek.
He gets stuck at two land and is forced to put a spectral flight on a snapcaster. i abrupt decay it and ride sigarda to victory.
4th round G/r aggro. playing stranglroots, exp. one, dryad militant, etc.
Let's just say I had bad starts both games and he didn't and I scooped turn 4 both games.
All and in all I like this deck. I need something against burning tree decks because they just laugh off spot removal. also that guy was maining 4x mortars, so my smiters were not that great against him. probably will adjust my sideboard a little to help against a moderately fast start from them.
EDH is like French fries: some people like waffle cut, crinkle cut, or plain old straight cut, and while there's slight flavor difference and personal preference, at the end of the day they're still fries.
So this thread and some other factors pushed me towards this deck. So I would like to thank every for helping guide my deck, which is as follows.
All and in all I like this deck. I need something against burning tree decks because they just laugh off spot removal. also that guy was maining 4x mortars, so my smiters were not that great against him. probably will adjust my sideboard a little to help against a moderately fast start from them.
Awesome! I'm stoked to see more people try the deck out in paper at FNMs and stuff, I only really play on mtgo.
Against hyper-aggro decks you could try running some strangleroots in the main, and have some Thrags in your SB. A lot of cards in your main are good against midrange/control, but not so much against Aggro (Sorin/Garruk, etc). 2 drop removal is still key too, even though BTE decks just drop their hand on the board, if you can save 4 damage over the course of the game by using a decay T2, that might be the difference between stabilizing with a 4 drop or dying. If Naya blitz and RDW get their nut draw though, and you dont have pilgrim-> Smiter, and some 2 drop removal in your hand, theres really not much you can do, but that goes for almost all decks.
Alright, I have a list right now that I'm the most stoked on since I started developing this deck. Thanks a ton to everybody who has commented or messed around with this deck so far, especially to ryansolid for all his comments, it really helped with this build, and I appreciate it a lot.
The only thing that this deck loses over the original version w/farseeks is that you only have 4 ramp sources to hit a 4 drop on turn 3. However, we have more and earlier threats, and the lower curve makes the deck much more consistent. As a result, they're using their removal on our early creatures, clearing the way for those big 4 drops, and we usually have better board position by turns 4/5 as compared with the old build.
I'm mulling much, much less with this deck too. I like my openers a lot most times, cutting down on the 5 drops smooths a lot of things out.
Gyre Sage is a powerhouse in this deck, and is really the driving force as to why I went this route after testing various versions of the list. I think she fits here way better than in the Naya builds that use her, she just gets massive, very, very quickly. I think this deck was just built for her, she singlehandedly makes the deck more of a threat.
The 1-ofs: Resto, Ajani, Harvest, Gavony all have great synergy with the core cards of the deck. It seems a little odd to have this many 1-ofs, but, they do a lot of work. Ajani is the only one of them that gets regularly sided out too (Aggro matchups).
Obzedat is really just a phenomenal card in this list too, I bumped him to 3. His synergy with Gyre Sage is great, and along with Harvest we have 4 cards that don't rely on combat to damage our opponent. That's rare for a junk list, and it gives the deck a lot of reach, especially combined with an aggressive game turns 3-5.
The SB is almost all straight swaps. The only matchups where I mess with the curve are control and UWR, but we're swapping 4 drops for 5 drops, so its really not too horrible, especially with the sage.
Anyways, as you can tell, I'm stoked about this build. I've only gotten to play it one daily and I finished 2-2, but (W: Naya Blitz, Naya Midrange, L: RDW, rogue G/W token deck) but I really like how it plays out better than the other version in general testing.
Lastly, this specific list is probably the funnest deck I've played in standard since I got back into the game 3 years ago. I plan on running it in a lot of dailies over the next few weeks.
You're not using Gyre Sage for any big spells? Wouldn't you be better off with Experiment One in that case?
Gyre Sage isn't about playing big spells. The cards flexibility of mana vs. beatstick or blocker is the power of the card. Experiment One I think is better in a true aggro deck like Naya Humans in most other decks I prefer Gyre Sage.
It also can shore up a mana light hand which can be problematic for any deck.
Gyre Sage isn't about playing big spells. The cards flexibility of mana vs. beatstick or blocker is the power of the card. Experiment One I think is better in a true aggro deck like Naya Humans in most other decks I prefer Gyre Sage.
It also can shore up a mana light hand which can be problematic for any deck.
Exactly. She is useful if I'm stuck on 3 land with her and a smiter out and I need to get a 4 drop down, or to get Obzedat out a turn earlier and I don't have a Pilgrim. She's also really good with the Township, in a board stall scenario midgame, I can usually just tap her and a plains to activate Gavony, which is super useful, its come up twice.
Also, one evolve trigger and she's a 2/3 instead of a 2/2 (Experiment), which makes a huge difference against aggro decks early, since she can dodge pillars of flame and block all their 2/xs at that point. If you don't remove her early, the way this deck curves and with the big creatures we have, she gets out of hand very quickly.
I'm pondering building this deck, and I have some suggestions:
Wolfir Avenger is a resilient 3-drop, and that's really what the deck needs more of - Dreg Mangler isn't your best option in this.
Has anyone considered Ulvenwald Tracker as removal? Considering the big beefy sticks the deck runs in desecration Demon, Alms Beast, and etcetera just having it on-board could bait removal as well as stopping someone from dropping a Thundermaw or Hellrider. But that's just a thought, I have no idea if it'd actually work.
I'm pondering building this deck, and I have some suggestions:
Wolfir Avenger is a resilient 3-drop, and that's really what the deck needs more of - Dreg Mangler isn't your best option in this.
Has anyone considered Ulvenwald Tracker as removal? Considering the big beefy sticks the deck runs in desecration Demon, Alms Beast, and etcetera just having it on-board could bait removal as well as stopping someone from dropping a Thundermaw or Hellrider. But that's just a thought, I have no idea if it'd actually work.
Those 2 manglers aren't ideal, I would run 6 Smiters if I could. You could run Wolfirs there just as easily, but I think that haste and scavenge are slightly more relevant in most matchups with this deck than flash and regen. Also, you really don't want to be holding two mana open just to preserve your wolfir after turn 3, I find I need all my mana almost every turn as is in this build. In the aggro matchup, the wolfir is admittedly probably better just due to the surprise factor to flash in and kill an incoming 2/x. Smiter is better than both of them in any case, the only commonly packed 2 drop removal that really hits it is mortars, and if they want to use up a mortars on him, fine by me.
The tracker is really fragile, and does nothing by itself, which is really what I'm trying to avoid here. You want cheap, fairly unconditional removal, and a 1 drop 1/1 that requires 2 mana and a 4/4 or higher on board most times, really isn;t good here. The only cards we have that aren't stand alone threats or removal are 1 of Ajani and Harvest.
Awesome! I'm stoked to see more people try the deck out in paper at FNMs and stuff, I only really play on mtgo.
Against hyper-aggro decks you could try running some strangleroots in the main, and have some Thrags in your SB. A lot of cards in your main are good against midrange/control, but not so much against Aggro (Sorin/Garruk, etc). 2 drop removal is still key too, even though BTE decks just drop their hand on the board, if you can save 4 damage over the course of the game by using a decay T2, that might be the difference between stabilizing with a 4 drop or dying. If Naya blitz and RDW get their nut draw though, and you dont have pilgrim-> Smiter, and some 2 drop removal in your hand, theres really not much you can do, but that goes for almost all decks.
I'm thinking of adding the trostani's main, moving a garruk to the side and fiddling with the removal (adding 2x victim of night). Trostani is only irrelevant against combo (humanimator) and esper control. both of those aren't that present at my LGS (maybe one person for each deck), so it should be fine. plus her and obzedat are just nasty against aggro. I think I also need to get in the habit of waiting on farseeks and use all of my two drop removal to try and 2-for-1 them. I need them for fixing and ramp, but they can be awkward sometimes.
EDH is like French fries: some people like waffle cut, crinkle cut, or plain old straight cut, and while there's slight flavor difference and personal preference, at the end of the day they're still fries.
I really like this non - reanimator junk lists that are posted here. Might try it (i play junk reanimator normally).
What is your worst matchup? Can you add some sort of % descriptions of different decks?
No love for vampire nighthawk? Seems good vs whole field.
Have you considered deathrite shaman in sb to fight with reanimator decks?
Worst matchup: Esper Control, easily. After SB we have a chance, but G1 is rough. Those decks are on the decline though, thankfully. Jund midrange is a tough match too, but not as bad as Esper.
This whole deck is built around the concept of having bigger creatures out faster than every other deck. Not spending a bunch of ramp cards into just one big fatty that can be removed, but consistently, from turn 2 onward putting large threats on the board. Nighthawk is only 2 power for 3 mana, and he practically begs to be speared (or abrupt decayed). He's just too small here. I really just wish we could run 6 Smiters in the 3 slot.
I have 3 Tormod's crypt in the SB, for GY hate, but they're admittedly not perfect. The problem with the deathrite is, what do you do if they dump an AOS and Craterhoof in the GY the same turn and cast Rites from their hand?
I dunno, the SB options for Junk Rites are still up in the air. Having so many cheap 6/6s in this list goes a long way against that deck though, and lately I've been siding golgari charms in against them to wipe out their dork army early, which can be just brutal for them. This deck does a lot better against them than most other decks right now.
I have 3 Tormod's crypt in the SB, for GY hate, but they're admittedly not perfect. The problem with the deathrite is, what do you do if they dump an AOS and Craterhoof in the GY the same turn and cast Rites from their hand?
And you have active Shaman? Wait for them to cast Rites, see what it targets, while it is on the stack and hasn't resolved in response remove it with Shaman. They can't really cast Rites with an active Shaman up. Unless they have 9 mana to cast and flashback Rites and you only have a single Shaman you are fine. It works the same way with Snapcaster. As long as you respond to the casting (like the timing you'd respond with a counter spell) you are fine since they have to announce the target on casting before resolution. Then the spell (or effect) resolves and there is no target and it fizzles. The problem with Shaman is if they have removal, and they discard both, and have enough mana to Rites that turn. Then if they play the removal first you can only remove one of the threats and they Rites the other. But again it's pretty mana intensive to do all that in one turn. Hopefully you are winning already.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
Haven't posted in this thread for a while, but for a while now the mtgo meta just isn't good for this deck, largely due to Junk Rites. I had some decent success against certain builds of it early on, but to be honest, decks with 3-4x Angel Of Serenity that they can recur just beat the hell out of this deck. I've tried everything I can to tweak the SB and MD against it, but basically if you modify the deck to beat Junk Rites, it becomes soft to aggro and some other decks in the meta, and that just defeats the purpose. This deck also gets the crap beat out of it by rogue delver decks that are floating around too.
Anyways, maybe someone better than me can tune it for the current meta, but I just think it needs to be put on hold for a while. If aggro comes back to dominate, keep this list in mind. We'll see what happens after DGM comes out.
For right now, I'm focusing on a tweaked Aristocrats build with Slaughter Games in the SB, and more creature-stealing cards in the MD than most builds. Its good against Junk Rites and does ok vs. aggro, so that's at least a good start.
I have a strong feeling that Advent of the Wurm, Renegade Krasis, and Putrefy are all going to make this deck better. I'm certainly going to try
BTW, aggro is up again and Rites are down on mtgo atm. Might not be a bad idea to run this at least for the next two weeks until DGM, I'm going to try some dailies this weekend with it. Aristocrats are up though too, so make sure you have Curse of Death's hold in the SB, because chump blockers are no fun at all.
I can see it. Voice of Resurgence is interesting too but maybe not in this deck cause there isn't enough pseudo-haste (soulbond/exalted. etc). I think Junk aggro midrange has a lot of potential here. Mind you I have a suspicion with cards like Advent of Wurm you end up just playing it and replacing some number of the more conditional cards like Alms Beast or Desecration Demon. They are finally printing the good 4's these colors are looking for. I have some sketches with Advent and Sublime Archangel. Maybe the Angel isn't quite good enough. But the new cards quite nicely fill in the midrange gap GW has been facing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
I can see it. Voice of Resurgence is interesting too but maybe not in this deck cause there isn't enough pseudo-haste (soulbond/exalted. etc). I think Junk aggro midrange has a lot of potential here. Mind you I have a suspicion with cards like Advent of Wurm you end up just playing it and replacing some number of the more conditional cards like Alms Beast or Desecration Demon. They are finally printing the good 4's these colors are looking for. I have some sketches with Advent and Sublime Archangel. Maybe the Angel isn't quite good enough. But the new cards quite nicely fill in the midrange gap GW has been facing.
yeah, all the cards going in are strictly better upgrades for the same cc spells in their slot. 4x Advent of the Wurm is straight up replacing Alms Beast/Resto in my build, and Renegade Krasis is going in for the Dreg Manglers. Putrefy swaps out Murder, and a second Ajani will probably take the place of the lone Essence Harvest, (added synergy with krasis, more chances for a flying double-striking fatty out of nowhere).
It could have some of the same problems as playing Simic in limited does, topdecking a Krasis/strangleroot/Gyre Sage mid/late game sucks, but if you curve out with this build, it would be pretty devastating. There's enough removal and 4-5 drop stand alone threats to mitigate the variance I think too. Not sure, but I'm very excited to test it once the cards drop on mtgo.
I just came back to playing Magic from a hiatus since Invasion. I typically play black/green or black/white, but with the Innistrad and RTR block lands being so wonderful, I decided to combine them into a Necra deck. I like the basic deck idea here, with some junky stuff, and some cards that don't get seen too terribly often (i.e. Desecration Demon), at least in my local Meta. I've found that locally, people are playing Jund agg and midrange, B/x zombies, reanimator, and Dega (Boros Reckoner in an Orzhov mix). I tweaked this deck somewhat, and have been running this:
So far I have found that it does well enough against RDW / R/x, excels against Jund Midrange, and against Junk Reanimator it can hold its own. I find that I have more luck with Wolfir Silverheart over Silverblade Paladin, especially in concert with vampire tokens off of Sorin (5/5 lifelinks make wonderful and large chump blockers). Liliana of course does what she does best in land fetching, but I think she may shine in DGM once Debt to the Deathless arrives. I've done some play testing in proxy, and I like the effect, though I will likely not MB it, but -1 oblivion ring and -1 bramblecrush in the SB and place 2 in there as a different wincon in a game 2 or game 3 scenario.
Overall, I think it's a very solid deck and I've had great fun playing it!
First off, I play on mtgo, and right now aggro is over 20% of the meta, and reanimator and aristocrats only make up roughly 15% combined. This deck is great vs. aggro, good vs. midrange and control, and weak vs. reanimator/token decks/aristocrats. Keep that in mind. I bailed on this deck for a long time when junk reanimator was dominating mtgo, and I wouldn't recommend it if you play in a meta full of those decks.
30 Creatures, 2 PWs, 4 removal spells. Lots of aggression and synergy in our 2-3 drops, stabilization and must-answer fatties in our 4-5 drops. This build is very, very good at being whatever you want it to be in a given matchup. Its quite aggressive, which you want vs. midrange and control, but can also transition into stabilizing mode vs. pure aggro decks as well. I've been very impressed with the krasis so far, so I upped him to 4x. I use 3x Thrag MD instead of 3x Obzedat now. The lifegain with Thrag is more necessary than the multiple evolve triggers Obzy creates.
Matchups/SB:
Aggro: -2 Ajani, +2 Abrupt Decay. This deck really is just a house vs. aggro. They need a nut draw, and you need to stumble for you to lose really.
Jund Midrange: -4 Krasis, +3 Sin Collector, -2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Sever, +1 Putrefy, +1 O-ring, -4 Desecration Demon, +2 Obzedat, +2 Garruk. Sin collector makes this matchup (and control matchups) much more favorable than it used to be. Save removal for Olivia, she just takes us over if unanswered.
Esper Control: Same exact SB plan as Jund except -2 Abrupt Decay, and +1 O-ring, +1 Golgari charm instead of Sever.
UWR Flash - Similar SB plan as Jund except keep decays in if they have a lot of Reckoners.
Reanimator: -2 Ajani, +2 Ground Seal, -2 Abrupt Decay +1 Sever, +1 Putrefy. This matchup sucks, but you want to be as aggressive as humanly possible.
Aristocrats: -2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Sever, +1 O-ring. 2 Curse of Death's Hold in the SB would be a good addition if you play against this deck (or tokens/ Assemble The Legion) a lot, but I haven't seen it enough to warrant it, and we really need all our SB slots. If you're gonna cut something, cut Golgari charm first though probably.
I should be back next week with results in a couple dailies. I'm playing a lot of block sealed in the release queues and doing really well, so I kind of want to milk that EV as long as I can until they're done. After release events are done I'll be playing dailies again primarily.
3-1d a daily tonight. Beat Bant Auras, Jund midrange, G/R aggro, and lost to an identical G/R aggro deck. 2 Traitorous bloods did me in g3, almost took it.
A couple comments on the list: I've tried and tried to make Renegade Krasis work in here. With Strangleroot, Sage, and all the beefy dudes, it seems like a perfect fit, and I did have some success with him early on testing. In dailies though, you just don't have time to set up with him, and when you do have time, you're already winning. Almost everytime I see him, especially against aggro, I just wish he was another Smiter or a removal spell. I'm swapping him out with 2x Nighthawks from here on out.
Vraska is the bomb against Jund. I basically use her as a 5cc O ring with major upside.
Gaze of Granite went in for the Aura matchup, and I am just blown away at the utility of this card. I bring it in against any kind of token decks too. You obviously have to be careful with it, since we run a few tokens and some 1-2 drops, but generally a 2 mana or less Gaze is incredible in a lot of places. I think this card is kind f criminally undervalued as a solid catch-all SB card.
I would put this deck on the backburner until Junk aristocrats goes away, this list basically can't beat it without completely reworking the SB. If you are going to run it, I would suggest some combination of Curse of Deaths Hold or more Golg. charm in the SB, but Curse is generally too slow against them. The absolute best thing against them is to run R.I.P., but that messes up our Strangleroots.
I realize the fundamental way the deck invalidates this strategy, but it isn't like that deck doesn't give time to muscle through. My guess is the biggest issue is Sever is turned off by their sac outlets and you don't have enough cheap removal to take out the outlets on sight and not enough sweepers (Gaze/Charm). In the Jund counterpart Pillar and Bonfire are huge. And Thundermaw as well. I wonder if Illness in the Ranks would do enough. Too narrow probably. Deathrite Shaman would be good if it wasn't for all their slips. Recently I've been exploring the effect of Sin Collector in various matchups.
I guess the biggest issue is simply Desecration Demon/Strangleroot are largely dead in the matchup. Relying on such a fundamental board change would require an incredible post board plan.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
I realize the fundamental way the deck invalidates this strategy, but it isn't like that deck doesn't give time to muscle through. My guess is the biggest issue is Sever is turned off by their sac outlets and you don't have enough cheap removal to take out the outlets on sight and not enough sweepers (Gaze/Charm). In the Jund counterpart Pillar and Bonfire are huge. And Thundermaw as well. I wonder if Illness in the Ranks would do enough. Too narrow probably. Deathrite Shaman would be good if it wasn't for all their slips. Recently I've been exploring the effect of Sin Collector in various matchups.
I guess the biggest issue is simply Desecration Demon/Strangleroot are largely dead in the matchup. Relying on such a fundamental board change would require an incredible post board plan.
Exactly. You can tweak the deck to beat it, but at the cost of your other matchups, which isn't really where you want to be. The deck has a hard time with reanimator as it is, and it has some insurance vs. token decks in the SB, but right now the MD is set for aggro and the SB is set for Jund/control/midrange. Given that the majority of MTGO falls into what we're set up for, I don't want to weaken it vs. the field, but I don't want to auto-lose a match due to running into Aristocrats either. The solution vs. 'Crats is to cut all the Geists, and run R.I.P., but then we're severely cutting down our early threats and early drops to pump Sage (as well as early blockers vs. aggro) which is not what this deck wants at all. For what its worth, I think Junk Aristocrats will go away fairly quickly once people figure out RIP shuts the whole deck down. I'm guesstimating the meta will shift around the same way it did when people were running RIP in SB slots in response to humanimator.
For now, I'm instead running a traditional Thrag/Resto/Centaur Healer Junk midrange build instead with tons of removal, sweepers, Big Garruks, etc. SB full of R.I.P., Sin Colectors, Faithmenders, Vraska, etc. I think its kind of where you want to be in a meta full of GY use right now. So far, the tradeoff is its weaker vs. Jund.
On a side note, my win % has skyrocketed vs. UWR and any kind of control matchup since Sin Collector was printed. Huge, huge difference.
I like the Junk list you are running, however I play with paper cards, but the meta at my LGS is heavy aggro, so I think I might be able to play your list without adjustment. One guy plays re-animator, and one guy plays aristocrats, but everyone else is on naya blitz, or jund aggro, or something like that.
I've been looking far and wide for something that can stand up to the hyper aggressive decks, last week I ran our naya aggro and got stomped due to not knowing when to mulligan. This week I might try your list, but I was hoping for any advice you would give me making the transition from online to paper. More removal? Less removal? I'm kind of new to magic, only been playing a year or so and just recently standard, so any advice is appreciated. Thanks
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm big on creating midrange decks that can beat control. In this format I've found it to be permanence(the fact planar cleansing is playable is a nod to that). I think the deck needs something around 3 mana that gives value and is decent across the board. It's why Domri is so good. I didn't realize how good at first but the Metagame is starting to catch up. Garruk is good just expensive. As I see it Farseek is why the timing isn't right against control. Jund Midrange has similar issues but their Farseek payoff is arguably better(Thragtusk, Garruk, Olivia, Return) and they can play Slaughter games right off the Farseek. I'm not sure Ajani is good enough. But I imagine those Silverblades get sandbagged. I think Ajani probably needs a slightly different shell. But the issue with Esper definitely has to come from the early game if the value isn't there late. You need to pressure their mana early.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Anyways, I tested Ajani in my original (lets just call it the Farseek) list, and I was right, the creature density isn't there for him, not enough creatures at 3 cmc and less in that build for him to be really effective, 1x Silverblade is better there.
However, in the Aggro build, if you free up a couple of those Mangler slots for Ajani, he actually does some really good work. I also cut the 5 drops down to just 2 Obzedats, added a Resto, cut the land count to 23, and my non creature spells are 4x Decay, 2x O-Ring, 1x Murder, 1x Harvest (yeah, I had to try at least one out). The SB is basically straight swaps for the 2 5 drop slots (Thrag/Sigarda/garruk), and swaps for the non-creature slots (Ult Price/Murder/Sever), with 2x each golg charms and crypts. No dailies yesterday, but the deck is already doing better in rough testing, the removal suite does way better work in the midrange matches. If I tweak it more I'll post a decklist of that version.
Unfortunately, what both of these lists really want is to run 6x Loxodon Smiter. That would be just about perfect.
Again, thanks for all the input, we basically have two viable versions of this deck now, and I'm just trying to figure out the best one to run with regard to the meta.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Desecration Demon
3x Alms Beast
2x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
1x Wolfir Silverheart
Planeswalkers
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Spells
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Ultimate Price
4x Farseek
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Sever the Bloodline
4x Godless Shrine
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Woodland Cemetery
3x Isolated Chapel
3x Sunpetal Grove
1x Forest
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Golgari Charm
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Devour Flesh
2x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
1x Sever the Bloodline
So I played this at FNM tonight and it was A. really fun, and B. pretty strong against a variety of decks. probably going to stick with it.
FNM report.
1st round vs. G/B something.
This guy was pretty new and was playing a wide variety of not so good cards. I easily won 2-0 so nothing to report.
2nd round vs. Esper Reanimator.
First game, i get in with an alms beast and he is forced to wrath. i then play a wofir silverheart and pilgrim and he promptly plays and angel of serenity. i have an o-ring for the angel, play sorin, make a token and pass. he passes back, i play silverheart, pair with the token and swing. he is low on life so e is forced to azorius charm it, I make another, pair it with silverheart, he draws his card and scoops.
Second game, I side in my 4x deathrite shaman. I take out 1x alms beast, 1x farseek, 2x ultimate price. He mulls to five and i keep and sketchy 2 lander with a shaman. I end up doing 6 damage to him before he has to wrath away my shaman. i eventually get to a sigarda, followed by an obzedat. he stone walls me with a ton of lingering souls tokens, but obzedat just whittles away at him and he lost.
3rd round vs RUW midrange/fllash.
game one goes as expected with a turn three geist. he swing the next turn and i ultimate price the token. on my turn i play sigarda. he is stuck at three land, and finally just swings into the sigarda with geist. i kill the geist and sigarda just put the beats on at that point.
I side in 4x devour flesh for 2x ultimate price, 1x alms beast and 1x farseek.
He gets stuck at two land and is forced to put a spectral flight on a snapcaster. i abrupt decay it and ride sigarda to victory.
4th round G/r aggro. playing stranglroots, exp. one, dryad militant, etc.
Let's just say I had bad starts both games and he didn't and I scooped turn 4 both games.
All and in all I like this deck. I need something against burning tree decks because they just laugh off spot removal. also that guy was maining 4x mortars, so my smiters were not that great against him. probably will adjust my sideboard a little to help against a moderately fast start from them.
Awesome! I'm stoked to see more people try the deck out in paper at FNMs and stuff, I only really play on mtgo.
Against hyper-aggro decks you could try running some strangleroots in the main, and have some Thrags in your SB. A lot of cards in your main are good against midrange/control, but not so much against Aggro (Sorin/Garruk, etc). 2 drop removal is still key too, even though BTE decks just drop their hand on the board, if you can save 4 damage over the course of the game by using a decay T2, that might be the difference between stabilizing with a 4 drop or dying. If Naya blitz and RDW get their nut draw though, and you dont have pilgrim-> Smiter, and some 2 drop removal in your hand, theres really not much you can do, but that goes for almost all decks.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
Here it is:
4x Gyre Sage
3x Strangleroot Geist
2x Dreg Mangler
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Desecration Demon
3x Alms Beast
1x Restoration Angel
3x Obzedat, Ghost Council
1x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
2x Murder
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Essence Harvest
4x Temple Garden
4x Godless Shrine
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Woodland Cemetery
3x Isolated Chapel
3x Sunpetal Grove
1x Gavony Township
3x Golgari Charm
3x Tormods Crypt
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Sigarda Host of Herons
2x Thragtusk
1x Frontline Medic
2x Ultimate Price
comments:
The only thing that this deck loses over the original version w/farseeks is that you only have 4 ramp sources to hit a 4 drop on turn 3. However, we have more and earlier threats, and the lower curve makes the deck much more consistent. As a result, they're using their removal on our early creatures, clearing the way for those big 4 drops, and we usually have better board position by turns 4/5 as compared with the old build.
I'm mulling much, much less with this deck too. I like my openers a lot most times, cutting down on the 5 drops smooths a lot of things out.
Gyre Sage is a powerhouse in this deck, and is really the driving force as to why I went this route after testing various versions of the list. I think she fits here way better than in the Naya builds that use her, she just gets massive, very, very quickly. I think this deck was just built for her, she singlehandedly makes the deck more of a threat.
The 1-ofs: Resto, Ajani, Harvest, Gavony all have great synergy with the core cards of the deck. It seems a little odd to have this many 1-ofs, but, they do a lot of work. Ajani is the only one of them that gets regularly sided out too (Aggro matchups).
Obzedat is really just a phenomenal card in this list too, I bumped him to 3. His synergy with Gyre Sage is great, and along with Harvest we have 4 cards that don't rely on combat to damage our opponent. That's rare for a junk list, and it gives the deck a lot of reach, especially combined with an aggressive game turns 3-5.
The SB is almost all straight swaps. The only matchups where I mess with the curve are control and UWR, but we're swapping 4 drops for 5 drops, so its really not too horrible, especially with the sage.
Anyways, as you can tell, I'm stoked about this build. I've only gotten to play it one daily and I finished 2-2, but (W: Naya Blitz, Naya Midrange, L: RDW, rogue G/W token deck) but I really like how it plays out better than the other version in general testing.
Lastly, this specific list is probably the funnest deck I've played in standard since I got back into the game 3 years ago. I plan on running it in a lot of dailies over the next few weeks.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
Gyre Sage isn't about playing big spells. The cards flexibility of mana vs. beatstick or blocker is the power of the card. Experiment One I think is better in a true aggro deck like Naya Humans in most other decks I prefer Gyre Sage.
It also can shore up a mana light hand which can be problematic for any deck.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
Exactly. She is useful if I'm stuck on 3 land with her and a smiter out and I need to get a 4 drop down, or to get Obzedat out a turn earlier and I don't have a Pilgrim. She's also really good with the Township, in a board stall scenario midgame, I can usually just tap her and a plains to activate Gavony, which is super useful, its come up twice.
Also, one evolve trigger and she's a 2/3 instead of a 2/2 (Experiment), which makes a huge difference against aggro decks early, since she can dodge pillars of flame and block all their 2/xs at that point. If you don't remove her early, the way this deck curves and with the big creatures we have, she gets out of hand very quickly.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
Wolfir Avenger is a resilient 3-drop, and that's really what the deck needs more of - Dreg Mangler isn't your best option in this.
Has anyone considered Ulvenwald Tracker as removal? Considering the big beefy sticks the deck runs in desecration Demon, Alms Beast, and etcetera just having it on-board could bait removal as well as stopping someone from dropping a Thundermaw or Hellrider. But that's just a thought, I have no idea if it'd actually work.
Those 2 manglers aren't ideal, I would run 6 Smiters if I could. You could run Wolfirs there just as easily, but I think that haste and scavenge are slightly more relevant in most matchups with this deck than flash and regen. Also, you really don't want to be holding two mana open just to preserve your wolfir after turn 3, I find I need all my mana almost every turn as is in this build. In the aggro matchup, the wolfir is admittedly probably better just due to the surprise factor to flash in and kill an incoming 2/x. Smiter is better than both of them in any case, the only commonly packed 2 drop removal that really hits it is mortars, and if they want to use up a mortars on him, fine by me.
The tracker is really fragile, and does nothing by itself, which is really what I'm trying to avoid here. You want cheap, fairly unconditional removal, and a 1 drop 1/1 that requires 2 mana and a 4/4 or higher on board most times, really isn;t good here. The only cards we have that aren't stand alone threats or removal are 1 of Ajani and Harvest.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
I'm thinking of adding the trostani's main, moving a garruk to the side and fiddling with the removal (adding 2x victim of night). Trostani is only irrelevant against combo (humanimator) and esper control. both of those aren't that present at my LGS (maybe one person for each deck), so it should be fine. plus her and obzedat are just nasty against aggro. I think I also need to get in the habit of waiting on farseeks and use all of my two drop removal to try and 2-for-1 them. I need them for fixing and ramp, but they can be awkward sometimes.
What is your worst matchup? Can you add some sort of % descriptions of different decks?
No love for vampire nighthawk? Seems good vs whole field.
Have you considered deathrite shaman in sb to fight with reanimator decks?
Worst matchup: Esper Control, easily. After SB we have a chance, but G1 is rough. Those decks are on the decline though, thankfully. Jund midrange is a tough match too, but not as bad as Esper.
This whole deck is built around the concept of having bigger creatures out faster than every other deck. Not spending a bunch of ramp cards into just one big fatty that can be removed, but consistently, from turn 2 onward putting large threats on the board. Nighthawk is only 2 power for 3 mana, and he practically begs to be speared (or abrupt decayed). He's just too small here. I really just wish we could run 6 Smiters in the 3 slot.
I have 3 Tormod's crypt in the SB, for GY hate, but they're admittedly not perfect. The problem with the deathrite is, what do you do if they dump an AOS and Craterhoof in the GY the same turn and cast Rites from their hand?
I dunno, the SB options for Junk Rites are still up in the air. Having so many cheap 6/6s in this list goes a long way against that deck though, and lately I've been siding golgari charms in against them to wipe out their dork army early, which can be just brutal for them. This deck does a lot better against them than most other decks right now.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
And you have active Shaman? Wait for them to cast Rites, see what it targets, while it is on the stack and hasn't resolved in response remove it with Shaman. They can't really cast Rites with an active Shaman up. Unless they have 9 mana to cast and flashback Rites and you only have a single Shaman you are fine. It works the same way with Snapcaster. As long as you respond to the casting (like the timing you'd respond with a counter spell) you are fine since they have to announce the target on casting before resolution. Then the spell (or effect) resolves and there is no target and it fizzles. The problem with Shaman is if they have removal, and they discard both, and have enough mana to Rites that turn. Then if they play the removal first you can only remove one of the threats and they Rites the other. But again it's pretty mana intensive to do all that in one turn. Hopefully you are winning already.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Anyways, maybe someone better than me can tune it for the current meta, but I just think it needs to be put on hold for a while. If aggro comes back to dominate, keep this list in mind. We'll see what happens after DGM comes out.
For right now, I'm focusing on a tweaked Aristocrats build with Slaughter Games in the SB, and more creature-stealing cards in the MD than most builds. Its good against Junk Rites and does ok vs. aggro, so that's at least a good start.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
BTW, aggro is up again and Rites are down on mtgo atm. Might not be a bad idea to run this at least for the next two weeks until DGM, I'm going to try some dailies this weekend with it. Aristocrats are up though too, so make sure you have Curse of Death's hold in the SB, because chump blockers are no fun at all.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
yeah, all the cards going in are strictly better upgrades for the same cc spells in their slot. 4x Advent of the Wurm is straight up replacing Alms Beast/Resto in my build, and Renegade Krasis is going in for the Dreg Manglers. Putrefy swaps out Murder, and a second Ajani will probably take the place of the lone Essence Harvest, (added synergy with krasis, more chances for a flying double-striking fatty out of nowhere).
It could have some of the same problems as playing Simic in limited does, topdecking a Krasis/strangleroot/Gyre Sage mid/late game sucks, but if you curve out with this build, it would be pretty devastating. There's enough removal and 4-5 drop stand alone threats to mitigate the variance I think too. Not sure, but I'm very excited to test it once the cards drop on mtgo.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
4 Temple Garden
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Isolated Chapel
Creatures
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Desecration Demon
3 Wolfir Silverheart
2 Thragtusk
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Restoration Angel
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Spells
2 Unburial Rites
2 Golgari Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Farseek
2 Essence Harvest
2 Murder
2 Witchbane Orb
2 Liliana of the Dark Realms
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Bramblecrush
1 Essence Harvest
So far I have found that it does well enough against RDW / R/x, excels against Jund Midrange, and against Junk Reanimator it can hold its own. I find that I have more luck with Wolfir Silverheart over Silverblade Paladin, especially in concert with vampire tokens off of Sorin (5/5 lifelinks make wonderful and large chump blockers). Liliana of course does what she does best in land fetching, but I think she may shine in DGM once Debt to the Deathless arrives. I've done some play testing in proxy, and I like the effect, though I will likely not MB it, but -1 oblivion ring and -1 bramblecrush in the SB and place 2 in there as a different wincon in a game 2 or game 3 scenario.
Overall, I think it's a very solid deck and I've had great fun playing it!
Avatar and Sig by Xen's Inkfox Aesthetics
GWLambs and LionsWG
GMono-Green BeatsG
Testing: BGRock VariantGB
GWBJanky JunkGWB
UWGMimic BantrolUWG
BWApostleypse NowBW
Here's my current build:
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Gyre Sage
4x Strangleroot Geist
4x Renegade Krasis
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Desecration Demon
3x Advent of The Wurm
3x Thragtusk
2x Ajani, Caller of The Pride
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Putrefy
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Godless Shrine
4x Woodland Cemetery
4x Sunpetal Grove
3x Isolated Chapel
2x Gavony Township
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Putrefy
1x Sever the Bloodline
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Golgari Charm
2x Ground Seal
3x Sin Collector
2x Obzedat, Ghost COuncil
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter
Comments:
First off, I play on mtgo, and right now aggro is over 20% of the meta, and reanimator and aristocrats only make up roughly 15% combined. This deck is great vs. aggro, good vs. midrange and control, and weak vs. reanimator/token decks/aristocrats. Keep that in mind. I bailed on this deck for a long time when junk reanimator was dominating mtgo, and I wouldn't recommend it if you play in a meta full of those decks.
30 Creatures, 2 PWs, 4 removal spells. Lots of aggression and synergy in our 2-3 drops, stabilization and must-answer fatties in our 4-5 drops. This build is very, very good at being whatever you want it to be in a given matchup. Its quite aggressive, which you want vs. midrange and control, but can also transition into stabilizing mode vs. pure aggro decks as well. I've been very impressed with the krasis so far, so I upped him to 4x. I use 3x Thrag MD instead of 3x Obzedat now. The lifegain with Thrag is more necessary than the multiple evolve triggers Obzy creates.
Matchups/SB:
Aggro: -2 Ajani, +2 Abrupt Decay. This deck really is just a house vs. aggro. They need a nut draw, and you need to stumble for you to lose really.
Jund Midrange: -4 Krasis, +3 Sin Collector, -2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Sever, +1 Putrefy, +1 O-ring, -4 Desecration Demon, +2 Obzedat, +2 Garruk. Sin collector makes this matchup (and control matchups) much more favorable than it used to be. Save removal for Olivia, she just takes us over if unanswered.
Esper Control: Same exact SB plan as Jund except -2 Abrupt Decay, and +1 O-ring, +1 Golgari charm instead of Sever.
UWR Flash - Similar SB plan as Jund except keep decays in if they have a lot of Reckoners.
Reanimator: -2 Ajani, +2 Ground Seal, -2 Abrupt Decay +1 Sever, +1 Putrefy. This matchup sucks, but you want to be as aggressive as humanly possible.
Aristocrats: -2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Sever, +1 O-ring. 2 Curse of Death's Hold in the SB would be a good addition if you play against this deck (or tokens/ Assemble The Legion) a lot, but I haven't seen it enough to warrant it, and we really need all our SB slots. If you're gonna cut something, cut Golgari charm first though probably.
Naya Midrange/Sage aggro: -2 Ajani, +2 Abrupt Decay. Kill Gyre Sage ASAP.
I should be back next week with results in a couple dailies. I'm playing a lot of block sealed in the release queues and doing really well, so I kind of want to milk that EV as long as I can until they're done. After release events are done I'll be playing dailies again primarily.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
Here's what I ran:
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Gyre Sage
4x Strangleroot Geist
2x Renegade Krasis
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Desecration Demon
3x Advent of The Wurm
4x Thragtusk
1x Ajani, Caller of The Pride
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Putrefy
1x Ground Seal
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Godless Shrine
4x Woodland Cemetery
4x Sunpetal Grove
3x Isolated Chapel
2x Gavony Township
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Sever the Bloodline
1x Golgari Charm
1x Ground Seal
3x Sin Collector
1x Gaze of Granite
2x Obzedat, Ghost Council
1x Vraska The Unseen
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter
A couple comments on the list: I've tried and tried to make Renegade Krasis work in here. With Strangleroot, Sage, and all the beefy dudes, it seems like a perfect fit, and I did have some success with him early on testing. In dailies though, you just don't have time to set up with him, and when you do have time, you're already winning. Almost everytime I see him, especially against aggro, I just wish he was another Smiter or a removal spell. I'm swapping him out with 2x Nighthawks from here on out.
Vraska is the bomb against Jund. I basically use her as a 5cc O ring with major upside.
Gaze of Granite went in for the Aura matchup, and I am just blown away at the utility of this card. I bring it in against any kind of token decks too. You obviously have to be careful with it, since we run a few tokens and some 1-2 drops, but generally a 2 mana or less Gaze is incredible in a lot of places. I think this card is kind f criminally undervalued as a solid catch-all SB card.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
I guess the biggest issue is simply Desecration Demon/Strangleroot are largely dead in the matchup. Relying on such a fundamental board change would require an incredible post board plan.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Exactly. You can tweak the deck to beat it, but at the cost of your other matchups, which isn't really where you want to be. The deck has a hard time with reanimator as it is, and it has some insurance vs. token decks in the SB, but right now the MD is set for aggro and the SB is set for Jund/control/midrange. Given that the majority of MTGO falls into what we're set up for, I don't want to weaken it vs. the field, but I don't want to auto-lose a match due to running into Aristocrats either. The solution vs. 'Crats is to cut all the Geists, and run R.I.P., but then we're severely cutting down our early threats and early drops to pump Sage (as well as early blockers vs. aggro) which is not what this deck wants at all. For what its worth, I think Junk Aristocrats will go away fairly quickly once people figure out RIP shuts the whole deck down. I'm guesstimating the meta will shift around the same way it did when people were running RIP in SB slots in response to humanimator.
For now, I'm instead running a traditional Thrag/Resto/Centaur Healer Junk midrange build instead with tons of removal, sweepers, Big Garruks, etc. SB full of R.I.P., Sin Colectors, Faithmenders, Vraska, etc. I think its kind of where you want to be in a meta full of GY use right now. So far, the tradeoff is its weaker vs. Jund.
On a side note, my win % has skyrocketed vs. UWR and any kind of control matchup since Sin Collector was printed. Huge, huge difference.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
I've been looking far and wide for something that can stand up to the hyper aggressive decks, last week I ran our naya aggro and got stomped due to not knowing when to mulligan. This week I might try your list, but I was hoping for any advice you would give me making the transition from online to paper. More removal? Less removal? I'm kind of new to magic, only been playing a year or so and just recently standard, so any advice is appreciated. Thanks