I have tested R(b)DW and BR Zombies. You will not win if you don't sideboard. They explode before your critical turn way too often. Either learn to sb, or prepare for the loss. I was sb out -2 mastery, -1 Path, -1 Boundless and play with either more Mastery or Tides. I never want to take the dig out, nor the Farseek, imo.
Yeah, I agree that we need a good sideboard plan vs. aggro. The ones we're most likely to encounter are Selesnya and Zombie/Rakdos, so what've we got?
I could see Fog as an option to buy time, the disadvantage is that if we can't abuse our next turn (Tide/Experiment) or don't have another fog, we're screwed .
Rolling Temblor seems strong against aggressive decks, wipes Selesnya's mana dorks and deals with almost all of the Zombie/Rakdos deck. Problems I can see might be Loxodon Smiter, and some of the higher range in Selesnya, oh, and blood artist.
I see those two cards as our main ways to control aggro (aside from Devastation Tide), but what are we going to sideboard out for them?
The only option I can think of to deal with super fast decks is to splash white for terminus. That would mean take the black out though. And also be more greedy with our mana. We have 8 "Search for Target dual" though so it shouldn't really be THAT hard.
The only option I can think of to deal with super fast decks is to splash white for terminus. That would mean take the black out though. And also be more greedy with our mana. We have 8 "Search for Target dual" though so it shouldn't really be THAT hard.
I've finally gotten around to brewing RUGw and here is my list
I haven't gotten around to building a sideboard for it but I have done some testing. I've tested against bant midrange, bant aggro, and br aggro. Feeling of dread is awesome against aggro, it'll let you keep some hands where you don't have farseek since you can tap down their guys and buy you a turn early on and mid-late game i've tapped down big guys (wolfir silverheart, thragtusk, etc). I picked terminus over supreme verdict because of miricle and because you really dont want to destroy creatures against some decks (geralf's messenger, strangleroot giest, gravecrawler, etc). I also thought about cyclonic rift, however we are already running devestation tide and even though its instant speed i don't think we'll ever have that much mana up during their turn (since we have so many sorceries) and you can't cast for its overload off epic experiement. I think 4 temporal master is too much, like someone early said and i agree with them that 3 is the right number so i'll be making that change once i decide on what to put in.
I feel you jammed so many things in there you might as well just go play 4c Control instead.
Losing the card draw cuts the speed down, and you dilluted the strength versus Control and Midrange. I had almost 0 problems vs midrange, the only ones being a well timed Slaughter Games. They try to control the board, and we have no board.. so you too have dead Terminus and and less draw. IMO, bad plan.
On a less negative note, I will try to find room for the 1x Runic Repetition SB to fight Slaughter games even better. W/X Midrange should have Purify the Grave or Rest in Peace and with that card it is possible to fight through the hate easier. Devastation Tide fights Rest in Pease fyi. But I know I will be playing in a group of no less than 3 Jund players and 2 have inbred so strongly that they have Duress and Slaughter Games SB.
Without getting in any testing yet, I'm going to be putting together the States list, but dropping 1 Temporal Mastery and moving 1 Rakdos's Return main, then putting Runic Repetition in the sideboard.
I found myself getting Temporal too often in my opening hand with the full playset, so I think 3 might be the sweet spot. At the same time, I would have runs where I would dig through most of my library before I could dig up the singleton Devil's Play, so I think having an extra win condition (in this case Rakdos's Return) will help speed up the kill. The Runic Repetition in the side is security against Slaughter Games, and can act as a psuedo tutor if they hit one of our win-cons early and we don't hit the other off of the EpEx.
As for the rest of the sideboard, I'm unsure what to side out against aggro to bring in the sweepers and fog effects. I almost would rather say to hell with it and just try to stay as combo-y as possible against them and just pray that I lucksack out and miracle Tide early on OR just hope I don't get paired against a fast deck. If the field ends up being a slew of mid range and control decks, then this deck SHOULD be well positioned.
aggro is very hard to play against.
my side consists of 4 rolling tremblor 4 inaction injunction and 1 blasphemous act. Yeh numbers are probably off but i feel comfortable making space for 9 cards.
I've also run 3 temporal mastery and am much happier with how my draws hagenuk smooth out.
Did surprisingly well at my fnm beating u/w control, u/w/r control and 4 color reanimator . i lost to azorius humans because of sideboard i think. most of their threats fly and tremblor misses those.
I really enjoy the deck. its a nice change of pace from bant control
If we run a ton of burn in main instead of card draw, we can also run Caravan Vigil to ramp us even more and to decrease our land count. Removing the expensive blue miracles also lets us cast epic experiment for 3 or so and hope for the best.
Between Mizzium Mortars, Devial's Play, and Bonfire, we don't even really need to draw Experiment to make use of our mana.
Played to a mediocre 2-2 as i flopped 7 lands on an Epic for 9 vs rd 4 Jund game 3.
Play Bonfire instead of Temblor. It won a game in miracle mode, and it hitrts fliers, big pluses.
Do you have a report/lessons learned/tips? Even a mediocre finish will definitely give good information on how the deck plays and how we need to evolve it.
Rd 1 - Jund
Game 1: He lands a Liliana 2.0 and starts discard mode. I foolishly let it ratchet up to 5 before I consider bouncing it via Tide. It gets to 6, I bounce it and some guys. Then I lay into a combo turn. Mind you my hand was 0 and I flashback Alchemy to find my Epic
Game 2: He gets stuck on 2 lands.
Rd 2 - Junk Midrange
My wife is playing my build, she knows my deck well enough.
Game 1: Little interaction, I get to like 8 then combo. Having to Tide a Resto, Thragtusk and Centaur Healer is touchy.
Game 2: She brings in Appetite for Brains and Deathrite Shaman x3 each. She lands 2 early Shaman and just eats my ramp spells to do an average of 4 life per turn. Add in that this keeps my Think Twice being less useful. I cannot keep up/draw answers.
Game 3: I side in all 4 Bonfires (I had only 2 or so in previously). She starts out with an Appetite and can nab my Bountiful Harvest or Boundless Realms, she takes the Harvest. Follow with a Shaman. I catch her after she plays another with a 5 mana Bonfire to kill what is likely the more devastating part of her deck. She gets me to 13. Plays an Armada Wurm with a Gavony Township in play. I take my turn, setup some plans, pass and she untaps and grows the pair as expected. Attacks me to 1. I untap, miracle a Bonfire for 19, she was at 18.
This is where I fully see how much better it is them Temblor. It can chip life, hit planeswalkers or players, and hit fliers. Also, to get a Temblor to kill a Thrag is 9 mana.
Rd 3 - Bant Exalted
Game 1: He misses his 4th land for a long time and hits me down via Knight of Glory, Rancor and Aven Squire. I get some bounces then get a big combo turn.
Game 2: I sideboarded Bonfires, no Fog, Dispel x2 (assuming Negate coming in), and a Rakdos's Return (assuming I may need it early)
We duke it out, I draw 2x Bonfire with no red mana. No Farseeks. I promptly die in the course of the game. I did try a last ditch Think Twice, but got nothing.
Game 3: Bring back in the 2 D. Tide I took out previously, cut myself down to just 1 Realms, and remove a Mastery. We go back and forth, as I get lower he lands an Ajani. I bounce it and his team. Replays the Geist of St. Traft, then Ajani. I only have 1 red source with a Devil's Play and Return in hand. I have to kill the Ajani to live (I am at 10). I Return for 8 and suck it up and hit Ajani. Next turn, no Bonfire. His turn emergency Think Twice, no wrath. Inner scream, outward calm. I was hoping to live the dream.
Rd 4 - Jund
Game 1: Little interaction, I combo.
Game 2: Too much aggro, mostly Thragtusk leaving an attacker post Bonfire.
Game 3: I catch 2 Returns to the head, my hand is finished. I Alchemy into garbage. I Epic for 9, FLIP 7 LANDS + Farseek + Increasing Vengence. I play them. I GET GARBAGE. His final swing I Think Twice... nope!
I am.. Irk'd. That is the proper feeling. I cannot be disappointed as I played well. I caught a Slaughter Games naming Epic. I played on, I simply did not get miracles. I kept in there, but I needed miracles to handle a Keyrune. Brought in Return and Runic to handle a Slaughter Games, but he called Epic; that surprised me.
I never brought in Fog. I felt as if midrange matches needed Bonfire more than Fog. Against Bant I knew a wrath would do more than a Fog, I could not find extra cuts for the Fogs after I trimmed for Bonfire.
Notes:
I tested this vs Junk Midrange, Grixis Control, Zombies (BR), RDW w/ Bump + Aristocrat.
Temblor could not hold off RDW. Zombies was tough, but was probably the match I wanted Fog.
Having the Dispels was fine, there was atleast 1 UWR Control, just not in my pod.
I played the Harvest on the theory that it let you keep more ramp in for the Bonfire and keep the normal course of the combo logic. I felt it helped enough. I am pissed that, statistically, I did not miracle more.
I mulled a lot, usually because of less than impacting hands. I would not keep anything less than a 2 Land|2cc Spell, or 3 Land|Alchemy. 4 land| Path is too slow.
You need to fish this deck. If you pick it up and go 'Hoo-Humm.. it wins; so I will win', prepare for a face plant. I feel I tested well, I just drew less than well.
You say that you thought Bonfire was definitely better than temblor, but how often were there scenarios that bonfire was just sitting in your hand? I like the card, its obviously amazing, but we already have a 4 expensive miracle cards in this deck and adding another four doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
What about Crippling Chill? This card could come in over Think Twice. It is very similar in the dig department (the flashback might not even come into play vs aggro decks), might cause them to overextend into devastation tide, fogs 2 attacks for most creatures, and still allows you to miracle on their turn given enough mana.
I'm ordering this deck tonight. Im doing -2 Devastation Tide for +2 Fog and -1 Think Twice and -1 Forbidden Alchemy for +1 Mystic Retrieval and +1 Firemind's Foresight
I quite like Firemind's foresight as a sideboard against control because if it resolves you pretty much have the game won at that point (barring a massive entreat or something like that) since it allows you to find an experiment, and two counterspells to back it up.
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I am only thinking about the Fog as the flex card. Dispel could be Negate, but the lone blue in Dispel makes it easier on the Epic for everything plays.
I not discounting Witchbane Orb. I am just unsure how much it would really do. Slaughter Games IS the main issues (spell-wise). Rakdos's Return sucks, but I have played through them.
I stole the main list from Missouri's 6th place finisher. The sb came from testing and the recommendation here for Bonfire, and I was unhappy with Temblor.
Really I have only been a bit dissatisfied w/ the amount of red that shows up. B/c Farseek is the only way to find red you are a bit stuck when you get only Think, Alchemy, and Path in an opener with 4 lands, sadly I have found you still keep that hand.
Here is what ive been tinkering with. Trying out Thunderous wrath cause it goes well with Experiment. Also snapcaster lets you double use spells, and has some good synergy with Devastation tide. (bounce a bunch of stuff, reuse the ramp spells)
This build is deffintly more all in than otheres, but does seem to work. Just no witchbane orb please
So in order to get the extra turns off of temporal mastery from a epic Ex. casting, X has to be 7 or more, correct?
In other words, no miracle casting cost off of an epic.
What it I cast it during an opponents turn (say I had hypersonic dragon in play), which card is considered the first drawn that turn?
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Have you guys tried a different version with token makers and Burn at the Stake?
Something Like (very rough draft from the top of my head):
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Lingering Souls
2 Increasing Devotion
3 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Faithless Looting
2 Increasing Vengeance
3 Epic Experiment
2 Burn at the Stake
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
24 lands
You can probably side out the combo for a more token oriented kill game 2 (or maybe the other way around and hide the combo in your SB for game 2!).
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Yeah, I agree that we need a good sideboard plan vs. aggro. The ones we're most likely to encounter are Selesnya and Zombie/Rakdos, so what've we got?
I could see Fog as an option to buy time, the disadvantage is that if we can't abuse our next turn (Tide/Experiment) or don't have another fog, we're screwed .
Rolling Temblor seems strong against aggressive decks, wipes Selesnya's mana dorks and deals with almost all of the Zombie/Rakdos deck. Problems I can see might be Loxodon Smiter, and some of the higher range in Selesnya, oh, and blood artist.
I see those two cards as our main ways to control aggro (aside from Devastation Tide), but what are we going to sideboard out for them?
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I've finally gotten around to brewing RUGw and here is my list
3 Terminus
3 Devastation Tide
4 Epic Experiment
4 Farseek
4 Ranger's Path
3 Boundless Realms
4 Temporal Mastery
1 Mystic Retrieval
1 Devil's Play
2 Increasing Vengeance
3 Feeling of Dread
3 Forbidden Alchemy
Land
7 Forest
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
3 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
6 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
I haven't gotten around to building a sideboard for it but I have done some testing. I've tested against bant midrange, bant aggro, and br aggro. Feeling of dread is awesome against aggro, it'll let you keep some hands where you don't have farseek since you can tap down their guys and buy you a turn early on and mid-late game i've tapped down big guys (wolfir silverheart, thragtusk, etc). I picked terminus over supreme verdict because of miricle and because you really dont want to destroy creatures against some decks (geralf's messenger, strangleroot giest, gravecrawler, etc). I also thought about cyclonic rift, however we are already running devestation tide and even though its instant speed i don't think we'll ever have that much mana up during their turn (since we have so many sorceries) and you can't cast for its overload off epic experiement. I think 4 temporal master is too much, like someone early said and i agree with them that 3 is the right number so i'll be making that change once i decide on what to put in.
Losing the card draw cuts the speed down, and you dilluted the strength versus Control and Midrange. I had almost 0 problems vs midrange, the only ones being a well timed Slaughter Games. They try to control the board, and we have no board.. so you too have dead Terminus and and less draw. IMO, bad plan.
On a less negative note, I will try to find room for the 1x Runic Repetition SB to fight Slaughter games even better. W/X Midrange should have Purify the Grave or Rest in Peace and with that card it is possible to fight through the hate easier. Devastation Tide fights Rest in Pease fyi. But I know I will be playing in a group of no less than 3 Jund players and 2 have inbred so strongly that they have Duress and Slaughter Games SB.
I aim to take the state list with:
4x Fog
4x Dispel
1x Rakdos' Return
4x Bonfire of the Damned
1x Runic Repetition
1x Bountiful Harvest
I feel that the 5th and 6th Fogs were the wiggle room as of right now. I was gonna play Redirect but Duress and Slaughter Games say 'opponent'.
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aggro is very hard to play against.
my side consists of 4 rolling tremblor 4 inaction injunction and 1 blasphemous act. Yeh numbers are probably off but i feel comfortable making space for 9 cards.
I've also run 3 temporal mastery and am much happier with how my draws hagenuk smooth out.
Did surprisingly well at my fnm beating u/w control, u/w/r control and 4 color reanimator . i lost to azorius humans because of sideboard i think. most of their threats fly and tremblor misses those.
I really enjoy the deck. its a nice change of pace from bant control
Between Mizzium Mortars, Devial's Play, and Bonfire, we don't even really need to draw Experiment to make use of our mana.
Play Bonfire instead of Temblor. It won a game in miracle mode, and it hitrts fliers, big pluses.
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Do you have a report/lessons learned/tips? Even a mediocre finish will definitely give good information on how the deck plays and how we need to evolve it.
Game 1: He lands a Liliana 2.0 and starts discard mode. I foolishly let it ratchet up to 5 before I consider bouncing it via Tide. It gets to 6, I bounce it and some guys. Then I lay into a combo turn. Mind you my hand was 0 and I flashback Alchemy to find my Epic
Game 2: He gets stuck on 2 lands.
Rd 2 - Junk Midrange
My wife is playing my build, she knows my deck well enough.
Game 1: Little interaction, I get to like 8 then combo. Having to Tide a Resto, Thragtusk and Centaur Healer is touchy.
Game 2: She brings in Appetite for Brains and Deathrite Shaman x3 each. She lands 2 early Shaman and just eats my ramp spells to do an average of 4 life per turn. Add in that this keeps my Think Twice being less useful. I cannot keep up/draw answers.
Game 3: I side in all 4 Bonfires (I had only 2 or so in previously). She starts out with an Appetite and can nab my Bountiful Harvest or Boundless Realms, she takes the Harvest. Follow with a Shaman. I catch her after she plays another with a 5 mana Bonfire to kill what is likely the more devastating part of her deck. She gets me to 13. Plays an Armada Wurm with a Gavony Township in play. I take my turn, setup some plans, pass and she untaps and grows the pair as expected. Attacks me to 1. I untap, miracle a Bonfire for 19, she was at 18.
This is where I fully see how much better it is them Temblor. It can chip life, hit planeswalkers or players, and hit fliers. Also, to get a Temblor to kill a Thrag is 9 mana.
Rd 3 - Bant Exalted
Game 1: He misses his 4th land for a long time and hits me down via Knight of Glory, Rancor and Aven Squire. I get some bounces then get a big combo turn.
Game 2: I sideboarded Bonfires, no Fog, Dispel x2 (assuming Negate coming in), and a Rakdos's Return (assuming I may need it early)
We duke it out, I draw 2x Bonfire with no red mana. No Farseeks. I promptly die in the course of the game. I did try a last ditch Think Twice, but got nothing.
Game 3: Bring back in the 2 D. Tide I took out previously, cut myself down to just 1 Realms, and remove a Mastery. We go back and forth, as I get lower he lands an Ajani. I bounce it and his team. Replays the Geist of St. Traft, then Ajani. I only have 1 red source with a Devil's Play and Return in hand. I have to kill the Ajani to live (I am at 10). I Return for 8 and suck it up and hit Ajani. Next turn, no Bonfire. His turn emergency Think Twice, no wrath. Inner scream, outward calm. I was hoping to live the dream.
Rd 4 - Jund
Game 1: Little interaction, I combo.
Game 2: Too much aggro, mostly Thragtusk leaving an attacker post Bonfire.
Game 3: I catch 2 Returns to the head, my hand is finished. I Alchemy into garbage. I Epic for 9, FLIP 7 LANDS + Farseek + Increasing Vengence. I play them. I GET GARBAGE. His final swing I Think Twice... nope!
I am.. Irk'd. That is the proper feeling. I cannot be disappointed as I played well. I caught a Slaughter Games naming Epic. I played on, I simply did not get miracles. I kept in there, but I needed miracles to handle a Keyrune. Brought in Return and Runic to handle a Slaughter Games, but he called Epic; that surprised me.
I never brought in Fog. I felt as if midrange matches needed Bonfire more than Fog. Against Bant I knew a wrath would do more than a Fog, I could not find extra cuts for the Fogs after I trimmed for Bonfire.
Notes:
I tested this vs Junk Midrange, Grixis Control, Zombies (BR), RDW w/ Bump + Aristocrat.
Temblor could not hold off RDW. Zombies was tough, but was probably the match I wanted Fog.
Having the Dispels was fine, there was atleast 1 UWR Control, just not in my pod.
4x Bonfire of the DAmned
4x Fog
4x Dispel
1x Rakdos's Return
1x Runic Repitition
1x Bountiful Harvest
I played the Harvest on the theory that it let you keep more ramp in for the Bonfire and keep the normal course of the combo logic. I felt it helped enough. I am pissed that, statistically, I did not miracle more.
I mulled a lot, usually because of less than impacting hands. I would not keep anything less than a 2 Land|2cc Spell, or 3 Land|Alchemy. 4 land| Path is too slow.
You need to fish this deck. If you pick it up and go 'Hoo-Humm.. it wins; so I will win', prepare for a face plant. I feel I tested well, I just drew less than well.
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There were numerous times I saw Olivia, Thragtusk, Centaur Healer, Geist w/ a +1/+1.
Right now it is the only:
1) Easy on the mana
2) Unrestricted
3) flexible (the miracle on their turn option)
4) alternate kill condition
I honestly will not change them back. The ability to hit 3+ dmg, and to fliers is too awesome. Midrange laughs at Temblor.
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What about Crippling Chill? This card could come in over Think Twice. It is very similar in the dig department (the flashback might not even come into play vs aggro decks), might cause them to overextend into devastation tide, fogs 2 attacks for most creatures, and still allows you to miracle on their turn given enough mana.
I quite like Firemind's foresight as a sideboard against control because if it resolves you pretty much have the game won at that point (barring a massive entreat or something like that) since it allows you to find an experiment, and two counterspells to back it up.
it says clearly on it 3 instants, not sorceries.
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4 Farseek
4 Ranger's Path
3 Boundless Realms
4 Think Twice
4 Epic Experiment
1 Devil's Play
2 Increasing Vengeance
1 Mystic Retrieval
4 Devastation Tide
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Mountain
7 Forest
9 Island
4 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Hinterland Harbor
2 Overgrown Tomb
4x Bonfire of the Damned
4x Fog
4x Dispel
1x Rakdos's Return
1x Runic Repitition
1x Bountiful Harvest
I am only thinking about the Fog as the flex card. Dispel could be Negate, but the lone blue in Dispel makes it easier on the Epic for everything plays.
I not discounting Witchbane Orb. I am just unsure how much it would really do. Slaughter Games IS the main issues (spell-wise). Rakdos's Return sucks, but I have played through them.
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Really I have only been a bit dissatisfied w/ the amount of red that shows up. B/c Farseek is the only way to find red you are a bit stuck when you get only Think, Alchemy, and Path in an opener with 4 lands, sadly I have found you still keep that hand.
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2 Boundless Realms
4 Thunderous Wrath
1 Devil's Play
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Devastation Tide
4 Farseek
3 Increasing Vengeance
2 Ranger's Path
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Steam Vents
5 Mountain
6 Island
9 Forest
2 Reforge the Soul
2 Bonfire of the Damned
Here is what ive been tinkering with. Trying out Thunderous wrath cause it goes well with Experiment. Also snapcaster lets you double use spells, and has some good synergy with Devastation tide. (bounce a bunch of stuff, reuse the ramp spells)
This build is deffintly more all in than otheres, but does seem to work. Just no witchbane orb please
It was a good read. I like the idea of white to shore up the aggro matchups. Time to sleeve this up!
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
In other words, no miracle casting cost off of an epic.
What it I cast it during an opponents turn (say I had hypersonic dragon in play), which card is considered the first drawn that turn?